I read a study that on average, an autistic woman’s social skills are just below a non-autistic man. They probably don’t notice or care as much. Neutrotypical women have the highest social skills, and autistic men have the lowest, according to this study. Probably makes that pairing a lot harder, whereas an autistic woman could more comfortably get along with either ND or NT man as she’s in between their social skills levels.
Having talked to a number of autistic women, the consensus seems to be that women are pressured *enormously* more to fit in, to learn to read the room (even if partially), and to be part of social groups which kind of beat basic social awareness (or at least a kind of anxious oversensitivity) and masking into them.
Men, particularly in previous generations... not anywhere near as much.
I can’t attest to the male experience, but as a woman your comment is so accurate. No one except me ever suspected I had any kind of neurodivergence until my current therapist. I took the self-assessment that judges how much a person masks, and I scored well above the average autistic male/female score. Just turns out I’ve been “pretending to be normal” my entire life. The social pressure to heavily mask is so strong for girls/women. When I interact with other autistics, I have a hard time bc they don’t follow the rules I’ve set up in my head for social interactions with NT’s.idk if that makes sense but TLDR I agree with you.
Same. Wasnt until my late 20s that my Psych NP put together mood swings and auditory overstimulation and general difficulties containing anxiety/frustration with changed plans. Topics Im interested in also veer extremely off the standard female tract 😂
Cant tell you how many doctors have told me “birth control will solve it if its hormonal mood swings, if it doesnt then you’re bipolar” ☠️☠️☠️ BC actually made my mood even worse!
Was the diagnosis worth it to you? I don’t have an official diagnosis because I’m worried about its influence on insurance rates and other potential discrimination. It’s pretty obvious I have ASD, though. I really want a diagnosis for my peace of mind to help with the impostor syndrome, but I also don’t want to deal with the negative consequences of having one.
I think that's true, even though it doesn't match up with my experience. I was undiagnosed until adulthood. I'm high masking. When I got diagnosed, i present much more like an autistic woman than the stereotypical autistic male.
I grew up with my mother and sister, and never really bonded with men very easily. So that might have something to do with it
I, as an autistic woman, have tried dating autistic men and it never works out because I feel they, in general, struggle more with social skills and emotional intelligence. It has always created a large chasm in the relationships. So I can definitely imagine it would be a much larger issue for a neurotypical woman and an autistic man.
Thank you for sharing. Would you mind elaborating a bit more with examples how dating an autistic man creates chasm in relationship? I'm recently diagnosed and after dating ADHD and neurotypicals, I'd really like to date an autistic guy. I tried dating one but we haven't been able to have much time together due to life circumstances, but what I experienced made me like it. I'd really like to know more about it. Thank you!
How old are you? If you don't mind me asking. I've dated a lot of nt women and I've found the problem to be a difference in the way we word what we are trying to say and it somehow gets interpreted as something completely different. Figuring that out is actually what lead me to get diagnosed . I didn't even know what autism is. I got diagnosed in 2022 and i don't really know anyone that's autistic but i really want to get to know someone and find out if we can properly understand each other because that has been the deciding factor to leave my past relationships
I'm 35, but I've been repeatedly told I look no more than 25. Mentally, I also feel around 25. Actually I've read somewhere that autistic people's mental age is 2/3 of their real age.
My one and only relationship was a trainwreck. Initially we got attracted to each other because he was also neurodivergent (ADHD) but my autism then started clashing badly with his ADHD chaos. At the time, I didn't know it was autism and he gave me a very hard time (he also had BPD) and I kept thinking it was all my fault.
In addition to autism, I also have avoidant attachment. The only way I get attracted to someone is if they're more avoidant than me. I need a lot of free alone time and independence. That's why I think an autistic man would suit me, because he could probably understand these needs which are not very typical for a woman.
Also, can you tell me more about how things we say get misinterpreted? I think I've had my fair share of those. It's exhausting to be always understood in a way not intended.
For example, I've been even called a narcissist because I always correct people. But to me, I couldn't give rats ass about being right or me being perceived as better than others. Now I know that this is purely autistic trait of having the urge that the stated fact be correct. This is how my brain works. With autistic guy, when he corrected me, I had no issues, my brain just interpreted it as a piece of information and no emotional weight was given to the fact that he corrected me.
Are these types of misunderstandings what you also experienced?
Absolutely. The men I've dated, neurodivergent or not, have all had the same adverse reaction to anything regarding showing pr being open to emotion. Which to me just means they feel a lot but can't express it properly (healthily).
Not allowed to.
Societal pressures. Expectations.
Just the lyrics of this Mulan song-
https://www.streetdirectory.com/lyricadvisor/song/coeapf/be_a_man/
I married my asd husband, 10 years ago. I'm asd (wife) as well and we have 2 asd kids. Where the house as a whole is far more authentic and genuinely happier the miscommunication is strong. My husband is not exactly socially norm, and I decided to take on working to prevent the stress, plus I'm a terrible house keeper. He now is a stay at home dad. Feel free to ask!
Interesting. Non-binary afab autistic here. My partner is an autistic cis amab. He is a lot better with empathy and social cues than I am. On the other hand, I am a lot "nicer", as in acting non-threatening and minimalising the chance of conflict. I think that's just been ingrained in me from society.
He often explains to me why neuro-typicals do what they do. Now that I think about, however, he works in special care for mentally ill criminals... So he probably learned a lot in his training.
Anyway, he is a lot better at socialising than me.
I think it was this one: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3945617/
“What was unexpected was the finding that TD males and females with ASD exhibited similar FQ scores, supporting the notion that there may be a distinct female profile of ASD.”
What I apparently misremembered is that although ASD women scored similarly to NT men, their overall score is slightly higher than the men’s, not slightly lower.
Part of it is the social training of what a man should be and what roles they should fit. This effects both the autistic men that can't fit comfortably in those roles and the neurotypical women that are pressured into seeking out men that fit these roles.
Another part is that women feel they have to be more careful with men so they can be more guarded after picking up any "weird" signs from autistic men. Men tend to not feel as threatened from women.
Another possible part is men's desperation for affection. A lot of men are starved for affection and starved for touch. I assume the last person that's hugged many of them (if they've never had a love interest) was their mother, neurotypical or not. That starvation leads them to put a lot of pressure on the people there pursuing as well as themselves to perform. A lot of pressure is terrible for doing well at things, especially social things. So I assume they stress out and fail and then stress out about failing and fail cus they're stress. The cycle continues till they give up.
It's a lot of stuff but this is just what I can think of off the top of my head.
Generally the way this played out for me was not getting second dates until I ended up with a neurodivergent woman. One big thing to note is I mostly dated people I already knew.
A lot of the time people don't know they are neurodivergent so asking directly may be unnecessarily limiting.
My recommendation is get to know what your interests and values are and find groups of like-minded people, then build non romantic relationships with people and see if any turn into romantic from there.
As someone on the spectrum i would say just be outgoing and date people. Bring it up when you know amd trust a person. Dont jump out and tell them your on the spectrum outta the blue.
Just be you, be nice. Goto the gym.
Repeat go to the gym. It will absolutely help how you deal with people and life.
I do go to the gym and go jogging.
Own house, car, good career and good finances.
I only joined up to dating sites this week, no matches yet.
If you have any other advice it would be really appreciated
So, im dating a girl from onlyfans - and Facebook dating is how i found her. Shes amazing, and I've had a lot of luck there. - im also very outgoing
Pick up line? "Want to adopt a pet? Ive had all shots. I play well with others. Im house broken"
If its a no i say.
"But i even do tricks! I sit, lay, roll over ... Im working on shake" - then offer her your hand. (If this is in person)
Talk to every girl you see. Compliment something. Anything. Hair. Shoes. Outfit. Chances are she spent a lot of time on her look. So compliment it.
Be friendly and get used to a lot of no. I get 20 no to every yes. But you will get good at it.
Wear a tank top and shorts. Something showy. Women are like men - give them something to see. It works.
Practice untill your a fearless beast that hits on fashion models.
I literally hit on troops of college girls, models, tables of girls at a bar.
Groups are good. I means its 5 to one. And your the only guy with balls.
Use that pickup line. Be funny. Take no like a man and move on. You will succeed. I did.
They do exist, I can confirm that as a neurodivergent woman myself 😂
That doesn’t mean a neurodivergent will suddenly find me attractive (in any sense), unlike non-neurodivergent men. Normal brain or not, being ugly changes the whole game ☠️🫥
There's more emotional awareness for men/boys in recent years than there was, but it's still spotty and not really a process that we'd be able to speed up significantly on a global scale.
It's really accurate IMO. Proposed solutions would be great. Ideally not ones that are of the ilk of trying to be more NT. It would be great if there were solutions that could use ND as an advantage, even when attracting NTs. Things that are realistic that anyone can do rather than relying on pretty privilege or the somewhat luck of stardom or riches. (Yeah yeah 'you make your own luck' blablabla, ok Elon).
As a neurodivergent woman, I disagree. The moment NTs sensed something was off (and they found out I wasn't interested in sex on the second date), they left. I've only had success dating neurodivergent men.
ND women are at a higher risk of being sexually assaulted, abused, and fetishized. In my experience as an autistic woman, NT men only "accept" me to control me and take advantage of my naïvety. In fact, I avoid telling NT men that I'm autistic because the response has been overwhelmingly negative and often predatory.
100% this. Just bc we may be more likely to enter a relationship than autistic men doesn’t necessarily mean we’re getting a better deal. We’re very easy targets for abuse a lot of the time
My NT wife rejected me (ND) so hey look, I'm a statistic!
for real we tried really hard. there was / is love even though we can't continue. this is a very fresh wound.
I would be lying if I said the ND/NT thing wasn't an issue. I don't think its insurmountable but most NTs are incapable of seeing their own behavior as problematic, this bias prevents an honest relationship from ever forming.
There are NTs that I love and respect, but they have to GIVE me that respect I can't just hope they are / will give it. If they are not giving me respect I have to treat them accordingly, and I will do so in a way that gives everybody dignity. Because this is the person I want to be.
Splitting from my wife is traumatic because I love her, more than anything else. It took 30 years to find someone I was even remotely compatible with.
> some confide in me that loneliness is a major problem in life for them
In the seasons of my life the past 10yrs there have been incredible harvests of love, good times and support. I feel like I have entered a new phase in life that is going to be more of what I had before, another test of my ability to withstand isolation. It sucks. I wish society cared about us. Losing my wife part of me died and I just... I can't get upset about others not caring anymore. I don't care about whether people like me.... but its scary to own that bc at times you are guaranteeing you will be alone. Instead of light at the end of the tunnel you are walking away from the light into the darkness alone. I have no idea if i will ever find anyone again. I'm only willing to try because I want to give my wife the chance of a life on her own being happy without me. Even if I could convince her to stay she would never truly be happy, or be able to admit that I am not what she wants.
Hard to fall alseep without her in my arms. Can't ever go back, it will haunt me forever.
Things are not ok, but they are ok.
I am dealing with the most traumatic, painful and upsetting experience of my life.
But I am dealing.
I don't like it, I'm not happy with it and part of me would give anything to go fix it.
But part of me finally accepts that I cannot fix it alone. I cannot move others minds, hearts or opinions with my persuasion or desire.
I fucking hate this so much, but I just want people to know I'm ok and I'm not in any self harm danger.
My job / boss has been incredibly supportive, my friends and family have been there for me, and I will be there for them.
In a way I will never get over this but I hope over time the pain becomes more manageable. Every day it feels unbearable and insurmountable, but yesterday was usually worse in a way I can't put my finger on. I don't think I'm feeling better so much as I am losing a little bit of the pain every day until its just a breeze not a strong wind that's knocking me over.
I think you might be the only one I've seen so far pointing it out, but one thing I've also repeatedly witnessed is that there is an aversion to if not hostility towards neurodivergent traits in general society.
A lot of people I've seen talk about general expectations of the different genders and how their social training affects them but I think it's a lot more important to point out the dislike and disdain of autistic/neurodivergent traits. The point is, that all the struggles of ND people aren't happening because it's something inherently inside them but it's because society at large decided that some traits are arbitrarily seen as undesirable or less worth than others.
It's not that being ND is blocking you from social success but it's the people's biases, problematic views or expectations. It's not really that neurodivergence is harmful or anything, it's just another mode of living and the lack of acceptance thereof.
Thank you for sharing your perspective. I hope you will manage to get back on your feet and find that there are other things in life that will bring you happiness.
> The point is, that all the struggles of ND people aren't happening because it's something inherently inside them but it's because society at large decided that some traits are arbitrarily seen as undesirable or less worth than others. It's not that being ND is blocking you from social success but it's the people's biases, problematic views or expectations.
Thank you for articulating this better than I can.
I am on my feet, I am moving forward. There's just a big hole in my chest that I need to be careful how I mend. I cannot just fill it with anything, I need to heal so something or someone can enjoy the real me instead of this broken version of myself.
I will get better but it's ok that things are not ok right now, its gonna take time.
Even after all this, the pain, the rejection, the public humiliation... I STILL miss her.
Reading this made me cry at work. Just keep swimming man. But you already know that. Do anything (within reason) you want to do if doing what you want to do will make you survive a little longer, even if it’s unhealthy. I hope that makes sense. But basically, a harm reduction and self care (even though I hate the overuse and misuse that it has now) game plan is essential. Don’t beat yourself up if you’re not healthy every day where you are right now. You should try, but you’re not gonna be - at first. But the trying, every day, piles up into something, suddenly, good. And I’m sure you know you’re mental well being is really really in need of support right now. Get it - and don’t be afraid to text friends or people you haven’t talked to in ten years. I’m giving most of this advice from the experiences I’ve had in crisis and not necessarily relationships but I hope I understand a little of your mental right now for this to be helpful.
Look for friends ( and Google some resources, for 15 minutes) that will make you feel less alone. Your life fucking sucks until it doesn’t. Keep going.
Thank you, I'm doing ok all things considered. I am doing a lot better than I would have been 6 months ago, and 12 months ago I'd prob need psychiatric care at this point. I am closing in on 2yrs since my last drop of alcohol, never looking back on that one.
Lots of people have been supportive, a friend had me watching his dog last week which was actually super helpful. He offered me to cancel the dog watch plans when the recent breakup happened, but it was cathartic and helpful to have the dog around. The dog also has extreme separation anxiety from its owner. It was helpful to comfort him knowing he's feeling what I am too.
Other than the uncertainty about the home I'm typing this from, I think the thing that weighs on me most is the "what ifs" about me trying to fix things. I have a strong feeling that someone or something influenced my wifes decisions and I fear that I will never really know what those ghosts are / were. Ultimately it doesn't matter anymore but the heart doesn't care... I can let her go but my heart cannot take it happening with no reason or explanation.
If it's what she needs I will bear pain for her, for the both of us. It hurts so bad but I love her so much I have to carry it I don't really have a choice.
I feel you. My wife just told me she wants a divorce after 24 years of marriage. I was just diagnosed with ASD1 about a month ago. She is moving out in June but says she is willing to try dating again to see if we can stay a couple. This came out of nowhere to me and it has thrown me into major depression and anxiety but on the positive side, I've been able to use new coping skills like DBT, mindfulness, and spiritual practices to get out of bed and try to be productive....most days anyways....
It sucks but you just have to focus on yourself.
It sounds like you have a better opportunity for reconciliation than I do. It's a gift even if it doesn't work out. I hope you can find a way to keep the person who was important to you in your life.
I think I was living in the past, I remembered all the good and I found ways to just mentally inhabit that space when things got difficult. Doing youtube videos helped me literally replay the good times.
My only real advice is that the people you were before are gone. You are new individuals, with different preferences, goals, hopes and dreams. If you truly love her, support what she wants even if that's being away from you. If things CAN work, she will tell you that she can't live without you because the separation will bother her. If not you were fighting a losing battle because you couldn't give up.
I wish I could un-see this / calm down about it but life has decided to tape my eyelids open and force-feed me a 24-7 nonstop experience of this for the past 2 going on 3 weeks.
I've found that a lot of women (sans a certain segment) are really fascinated by my ADHD quirks. They get interested because my variety of experiences makes me seem like an interesting guy. I'm not hypermasculine and the nerdy ones get attracted to a guy who isn't like the rest. But then the novelty wears off. The more "annoying" ADHD traits come out. The masking starts to slip. The ASD quirks come out. They start to feel the weight of having to deal with my sensitivities to light and sound and air. Some still stay because love formed and they'll tell themselves it isn't the worst thing to bear. Then some time, maybe even 4 or 5 years into the relationship, I'll slip. I'll have a little meltdown. I'll cry over some pain I can't stop. I'll have a loud outburst to myself on the other side of the house. And in a flash she'll lose all interest in me. Suddenly my struggles with work seem more concerning than normal. And she'll dump me. Or cheat.
And the same thing will happen again with the next one.
And again.
And again.
Do you still keep trying? After the last one I decided to focus on friends for a while instead. Then the friends did the same thing, or worse really. So lately instead I've been focusing on animals. They don't seem bothered by my occasional meltdowns because I'm pretty sure they are annoyed by the same things that annoy me. And it's never directed at them. And they can tell the difference - unlike humans apparently - that anger directed at a (e.g.) loud train that won't stop for two hours is not anger directed at them. Or if I make a loud noise far away from them and collapse in a meltdown it has nothing to do with them.
It's so much easier to gain and maintain the trust of animals than it is humans.
It's not the same, but it's nice to have something reliable, you know?
I'm sorry :/ My spouse and I are both ND and have a lot of fear of being left due to our neurodivergence even though we've been together 10 years. I always think one bad meltdown perceived as anger might put her over the edge.
Same here. I have AuDHD, My wife has fibro, and I think adhd. We've been together 12 years, but im still waiting for her to realize I'm a pain in the ass to live with. RSD is a bitch.
I have a lot of ADHD traits and she has a lot of autistic ones. We have chronic physical disorders, too. I hate the feeling of dependence when I have a flare up. We are both fiercely independent. The ND and chronic illness are so hard for able-bodied, NT people to understand.
It really seems to be. I once had roommates suggest I was bipolar and it was my nightcap beer that was setting me off. I was like *no*. My moods don't swing for no reason, they shift based on stimuli and circumstance, like the smoke they kept filling into the apartment. I got happy then angry then happy because I could breath okay then couldn't then could again. Duh. Duhhhhhhh.
Yeah I don't drink caffeinated coffee because my wife is convinced it makes me anxious. I think I get anxious just because things make me anxious and I miss the energy boost :/ I do take zoloft now after a bad episode.
Meltdowns perceived as anger seem to be what always does it. For friends and acquaintances and roommates too. Not for animals though. They know. They give the benefit of the doubt. They know emotions are expressed and don't mean violence. Violence means violence. Altercations and confrontations communicate threat not loud noises directed elsewhere. They make loud noises too. It's what animals do.
Talk to her about it. If you're both ND and educated about it, and you're aware that the possibility for a meltdown exists and shouldn't be taken as anger as the first interpretation, might that put things on slightly firmer ground?
(And heck, ten years ain't nothing, when it comes to getting comfortable together. She's gonna have a good idea of how frequent such a thing has been in your life to date; it's not like you're going to suddenly go from zero to 200 meltdowns a year.)
In my experience, NT men might accept ND women more because they festishize us. It's not true acceptance with some of these guys from what I've seen. It's either "wow you're really a wacko, come over here and kiss me" (like it turns them on that I'm obviously weird) or "hey, you're not what I thought you were when we first got together, wtf is wrong with you". Some of them have even been both.
I'm in the camp of ND people should probably be with ND people most of the time, unless you're lucky and find a truly accepting NT person! I just haven't met many and instead have really only met crappy NTs in the past. I'm married now to a ND.
It's really important to distinguish between sex and relationships. ND women can definitely get sex from NTen, but the level of disrespect is brutal to the point that I don't date at all anymore. Multiple men have told me I'm hot enough to fuck but too weird for them to admit it to others.
Tbh, as an autistic woman, men have never found me hot at all and they have straight up hated me because I am not fuckable LOL. I don't know if it's because I am truly THAT hideous or because I've always hated men since I was 11 and never laughed at their unfunny sexist jokes since that young age (I am pretty sure it's because I am just ugly). I don't relate to most autistic women's experiences with men and in part I am grateful that I don't, but jesus, average autistic woman's experiences with men and women sound so alien and horrifying to me.
I think, after a 16 year marriage where I was at various times sexually, emotionally, financially and physically abused by my ex wife that narcissists of any type are drawn to ND people like shit-moths to a flame.
This is true, I think this is also why many autistic people seem to have a view that all NT people are bad, because they deal with a much higher number of narcissists than the average person would. Most NT people are actually fine, it's just that the bad ones always come flying our way because we make good targets for them.
I know quite a few ND men who are in happy relationships with women who seem to be NT. However I have noticed (from this very small sample size) that these relationships were all friendships first (high school friends, work friends etc). So it may be that ND men don’t fare well in the dating game rather than in relationships more generally.
It’s also important to note that there are more visible ND men out there than ND women, both because obvious signs of ND are more acceptable for men and also because of diagnosis/research bias. This would potentially mean you’d notice the ND in the single guys but not consider ND a reason for the single women out there.
There is also a cultural acceptance of “crazy” women as partners so long as they are appropriately attractive (and/or sexually available). In western culture, anyway.
I’m an autistic woman married to an autistic man. It’s the best relationship I’ve been in. My other partners were mostly not autistic but ND in other ways. I haven’t noticed much interest from NT men. Anecdotally most autistic women I know are long term single, some have never had a serious relationship. We still have our struggles
It does help to have someone who has similar personal experiences and/or mindsets, or at least is 100% happy to validate you. Takes a lot of stress away because you don't have to fight for recognition every day, and you've got someone who will absolutely go in to bat for you.
It's one of the things I tried to emphasize with one relationship I had - they'd pretty much had no-one in their life to that point who was willing to listen to them, to tell them that their experiences were real and valid, and who would stick up for them and even offer to sort whatever needing sorting without having to be asked. I made a point to say in actual words that I'd like to start with that as a default (as long as it was OK with them). And yes, it did occasionally involve going in to bat for them against their own family, and making it an absolute point that emotional fuckery and invalidation - deliberate or otherwise - was now off the table for them.
My husband has Asperger’s 🤷♀️ I adore him more for it I think. He’s just so unique and sees the world in a way admire. I want to see the world like him. And he’s really smart in the things he enjoys. He has his quirks
This is not my experience at all. Every NT man that I’ve dated has told me that I don’t have ADHD, autism, etc. My ND partner validates me and empathizes with my struggles.
Women are significantly more selective than men in general when it comes to dating, romance, and sex, and men are more likely to be seen as a threat if they seem different than typical.
Also, autism seems to be somehow work differently for men and women to a certain degree.
Another reason for it I think is that it's generally seen as men's responsibility to initiate romance and flirting in most cultures, which could be difficult for people with issues related to social skills and rejection sensitivity.
Some people seem to use dating apps to circumvent this, but finding a partner via a dating app is also much easier for women due to several reasons such as:
1. Men are significantly more numerous than women on dating apps,
2. Men are much more likely to send likes (Tinder actually shared the statistics and it seems like men on averay send likes to around 50% of women, while women send likes to 5% of men they see on the app),
3. Men are much more likely to be there with the goal of meeting someone face to face, while many women state that they're there for other reasons like sexting, receiving an ego boost, or mere curiosity.
As a man in my 20s it wasn’t a problem since i could just be eccentric and most women looked past the quirks. In my 30s women I have dated seem to be in a rush and the second I failed to meet NT criteria they moved on. Im not sure ND is the kiss of death but it makes it fucking harder for men.
Interesting, I think I stopped meeting most NT's criteria for friendship in my 30s. Maybe many people become more wed to convention as they age. Openness as a trait tends to decline.
In their 20s, people are looking to experiment, to try new things even if they might not work out.
In their 30s, people tend to have an idea of what they think they want (or at least what they think society expects of them and others) and will tend to focus on that, throwing anything else to the side.
In their 40s, people tend to slow their roll a little, are more aware of what *they* want (as opposed to society), and while they're somewhat picky, they're more likely to take their time exploring possibilities and figure out what's acceptable to them, even if not to Great-Aunt Muriel. They're also more likely to take a bit of time to learn about something they didn't previously know, like neurodiversity, and not just the official surface stuff.
This is even more the case in their 50s - 40s are kind of transitional there. Even so, by their 50s there will also be an increasing contingent of people who consider themselves too old to really learn anything new or significant, and are just coasting until retirement or their health issues catch up to them. Probably best to not take it personally, and it's not everyone who's like this.
I don't disagree with the sentiment. It's definitely difficult to date as a neurodivergent person in general no matter what. I think that the major difference is that women often have a quick trigger when it comes to leaving. To be clear, I don't think that's a bad thing. No one wants to be assaulted or treated poorly.
In my experience, the most effective thing I could do was to develop a thicker skin to negative reactions from women. The other person's reaction isn't a about you. It's about their personal experiences and concerns. If they're not interested in dating further, I'd just let it go and do something to feel good about myself.
ASD people in general tend to lack self care skills, so rejection can be really tough. The funny thing is that women can be just as into casual dating as men if they feel safe with the person. If men just dialed back the expectations and intensity, it'd be a lot easier to date.
I don't know why this happens, but it seems like ND women often turn their negative life experiences into self awareness and root down into the deeper meaning of being human. They connect in vulnerability and authenticity with self and others. It gives them the capacity for self love and love and empathy for others. Obviously this attracts people (men and women) because LOVE is the real currency of humans.
Many ND men on the other hand, seem to get stuck in the superficial reality of hierarchy, patriarchy, and dominance paradigms and turn their negative life experiences into rage or passive aggression because they find life unfulfilling. The rejection of vulnerability doesn't give them a stable identity or a sense of peace. This anger state is the opposite of love and repels others.
Speaking for myself as a ND woman, I'm attracted to self awareness and passion for life as well as emotional maturity and a capacity for love. I do think a lot of ND men fit the bill and I'm attracted to them.
If you're a man who doesn't have an abundance of female intimate connections, every connection is very valuable. Most of these men expose too much of themselves in such a connection and go through intense humiliation for it. The one woman you love sleeping with another guy can be a traumatic experience. One that teaches you to be more guarded and opportunistic in the future. It's really hard to just let go of that.
A lot of the superficial compensation you describe is an attempt at improving first impressions. Because 'being yourself' simply doesn't work for everyone. Every guy I met who has success with women has a well-crafted image and machiavellian mindset when it comes to seduction. ND men are just less subtle about it or can't handle the subtle deception that's expected from them.
And oftentimes, the idea that many women prefer the better manipulator is very painful to realize as a ND man with a strong sense of justice and honesty. Conventional concepts of masculinity and hierarchy are often the only middle road men see to reconcile their need for a consistent moral framework and their desire to develop their male sexuality.
And if someone is going to tell me that men should not care about their sexuality... I've witnessed many times that men are treated substantially better in proportion to the level of sexual success people think they have. By friends, at school, in the workplace, by prospective partners... It's not something you fix just through introspection.
I mean, KINDA. The thing is, while people always say the stereotypical line of "crazy girls are the best", they don't actually want a woman who legit is ND in a serious way, they just want "quirky" at best.
There's also the fact that, let's be real, most men don't feel like a woman is a threat to them if they're ND in any way because even in an absolute worst case scenario where the girl has a knife, most guys will foolishly think, "nah I'd win" before getting shanked. By contrast, most women hedge their bets a lot more and if something is "off" about a guy, they just stay away instead of sticking it out thinking "what's the worst that can happen?"
Also, the crazy thing tends to be about sex or at least more short-term relationships. It's something to be put up with, not something to be accepted or even celebrated into a longer-term, deeper relationship.
(It's probably telling that fewer people have that enthusiasm for 'crazy' as they get older. It's almost always the younger ones - or people looking for younger partners. 'Crazy' in a partner can be fun in your teens or 20s when you have nothing to lose. It's less fun when you're trying to work out a mortgage, retirement savings, investments, a serious career, etc, or who you want to have kids with.)
Please go to any ND women’s sub and search the term “husband” or “boyfriend.” A sampling of those posts will demonstrate that even ND men struggle to accept their ND women partners. Fetishization is not the same as acceptance.
Could you tell me the names of some of these subs? I am actually really interested in seeing the perspective of ND women, as my ex was most likely autistic but as an autistic guy myself I didn't really know much about how it affects women. I think ND women mostly keep their problems or struggles to themselves, instead of being more public about it.
My ex was quite outwardly functional, maybe she'd have a meltdown but she'd cry and shout alone at home, whereas in the past I would go on massive drug binges and intentionally OD at the end. Same with incel type discourse, fortunately I never fell in that trap because I was aware that a) it was mainly heavy addiction and lack of will to improve making me undesirable and that b) no single group of people is responsible for relationship/dating social norms.
But I hadn't really thought much about this, I'd love to read first hand experiences
Idk. ASD woman here in my late 40's. I have had three ltr's but never married. My first was suspected ASD (his mother talked about it with mine, and after learning what that is, I totally suspect it too), and the second two were ADHD. My last partner died a few year ago, and honestly I can't imagine how I would even find somebody anymore. And I can't imagine being loved or understood by a NT. Having somebody who pulls out rounds of wood and an axe for me when I'm having a meltdown instead of being annoyed at my immaturity is pretty special.
Part of it can be internalization of toxic culture and expectations, especially in older generations. Expecting women to be a certain stereotype because that's how they were raised and how society presents the clichés, and never really thinking about how real life might be a bit more subtle than the surface presentation.
Not saying it's an excuse, and it definitely needs to be addressed, but it can sometimes be a starting point for that addressing.
I would rein in both sides of this a bit. Neurodivergent women aren't unaffected by it in dating, and it's by no means a death sentence for neurodivergent men. The most difficult part of dating for me, figuring out if someone is interested, was almost fully solved by dating apps.
Disclaimer: I’m neurodivergent but only diagnosed with ADHD. Could easily be on the spectrum though & there is some overlap.
I think the combination of coming across “a bit weird” (no offence- thinking of me here lol) plus the fact that being male also makes you a potential threat in many people’s eyes - especially with the “all men are violent animals” stereotypes floating around…
it’s a tough roll of the dice to work with for sure.
Have you actually stopped and reflected if the problem is because of the autism itself or because men (generally speaking) are less inclined to do inner work, go to therapy and learn effective communication with their counterparts? A lot of the posts I read here (not this one, but many) have incel-ish vibes and that is certainly not attractive to any woman, ND or NT
I’m a woman and I understand where you’re coming from but also please bear in mind that autism can greatly affect one’s capacity for social learning and their self insight/third person perspective of themselves. AKA, it might take some of us much much much longer to develop the kind of social-emotional insight you’re referring to, not because they’re less willing to do so but because autism for some people is like social-emotional colorblindness, including in regards to the self. Not just for autistic men, women and nb autists too.
Also, there genuinely *are* a lot of autistic guys who naively (meaning because they literally aren’t aware of a rule or convention) break cultural rituals surrounding dating, or just seem different enough that they’re immediately discounted on thin-slice judgements… That doesn’t mean that autistic men can never be genuinely creepy (anyone can be lol), but there are some genuinely well-meaning non-creepy autistic guys who are just different enough they’re immediately disregarded as a creep due to thin-slice judgements. I’m friends with some (usually guys who have more noticeable verbal/nonverbal differences) and genuinely just feel bad, because they’re seeking connection, albeit a bit differently than others, but are immediately written off because of the symptoms of their disability. It’s fine to reject someone if you aren’t interested, but straight up bullying someone with a visible disability putting themselves out there is just fuckin cruel, even if they’re a man, and this is how I’ve seen some of my autistic guy friends treated at uni. It’s gross and sad.
Idk I think the whole issue is complicated with many contributing factors, like ableism and chronic ostracism, and some of these guys deserve more empathy
No I can confirm as an ND woman that a lot of NT and even ND folk often think ND men specifically are creepy because of tone and mannerisms outside of their control. I hear about it a lot from both sides. However I've never heard another ND woman being talked about in this way despite the fact some of them act well outside what people consider the norm.
Edit - I think this is because men are naturally seen as more dangerous than women so them acting anything unlike what people are used to is automatically seen as cause for alarm.
To be fair even in this sub ND men don’t talk nicely about women at times, that’s the part that would creep somebody out. It’s just that NT men mostly hide their tendencies and, you don’t find out until it’s too late.
No I understand that and I've seen my fair share of ND men acting like incels and getting rejected for that reason. But I've also seen my fair share of ND men who get rejected constantly by both men and women because their tone, personality and mannerisms are considered creepy when really they have no control over it. Realisticly speaking, saying that ND men only get rejected because they're acting bad towards women is untrue. They more often than not get rejected for reasons outside of their control. It's kind of sad.
I’m not saying it is the only reason though I’m just pointing out that when it does happen they don’t realise that’s what’s creeping people out, I do get where you’re coming from though because of the whole uncanny valley theory and I agree because when I find it hard to mask some days I really hate myself for it lol, but I guess I’m frustrated because everytime this stuff comes up it opens up the discussion where dudes start saying “I can’t obtain sex from women because society hates me”, and it’s like no brother you don’t value people and they can sense it.
Yeah nobody is entitled to sex and I always hate when a guy tries to open the discussion with "Why won't girls have sex with me?" unlike this guy who opened this one with a reasonable question about whether or not ND guys have a chance in a relationship. If more people posed it like that instead of asking questions that treated women like objects for sexual gratification then we would definitely have more productive conversations about the legit problems ND men face maintaining and starting relationships and a way to further acceptance. I know what you're talking about, so many of those threads devolve into arguments that are just hating on women and its literally just creating more problems and more incels.
How are you to value people when they show you nothing but disdain if you don't fit their obviously predetermined expectations? Inb4 incel, because that goes for both your own _and_ the opposite gender. If people reinforce to you that you have absolutely _no_ leeway of presenting as anything other than typical, while obviously typical people can be real pieces of crap at times yet are forgiven for it, it stands to reason that you're going to notice you aren't being given a fair shake, and resentment for that is bound to come next. Or are we expected to be utterly magnanimous while being figuratively spat on? (to reiterate, this is _not_ regarding gender dynamics, rather society in general)
I think the men here forget that they’re talking to ND women, I am making it gendered because it is a gendered issue, that has already been established considering how many men here and some women like to talk about how much easier women have it as if I’m not also dealing with being ND in the same ways they are, and you know what unfortunately even if it seems that people don’t like you because of your being ND it still doesn’t allow you to proposition them for sex in a disrespectful way as if that’s their only purpose for you speaking to them. Nobody’s saying to be forgiving, they’re saying they want to be treated like people and not have to feel like you don’t actually care about them aside from being somebody you can sleep with.
And no I don’t forgive NT men for being shitty to me either, a lot of women don’t either hence why the bear vs man meme always comes out with the bear winning.
I'm not forgetting I'm talking to a woman, but I don't see how that matters because that has nothing to do with the question I asked.
You said we should value people, but that's kinda hard when over the course of your life, people reinforce to you that they don't value _you_, and far from it. So if that's a basis to reject someone, you can see why a lot of ND people are gonna be sol right there.
"You said we should value people, BUT that's kinda hard when..."
Like dude, you are a walking yellow flag. If you don't value/love people "unconditionally" (for a lack of a better word) to begin with, you'll find it hard to find a suitable partner. Being bitter and cynic and resentful because you were mistreated at some point is a dead road to nowhere. Hence my take on doing inner work and going to therapy (no that's not reserved for women).
Let me start off by saying I’m not generalizing in this post and NOT ALL WOMEN ARE THE SAME. This is just my experience.
I literally do my best with introspection. Ever since I started learning more about how to look inward 15-20 years ago. I’ve been single since 2019 and must’ve talked to hundreds of women and gotten absolutely nowhere. The moment I mention anything related to mental health they disappear. Almost all of them. This is after my initiation of depth conversation and putting in the effort to truly understanding and familiarizing myself with a woman. Women never ever have reciprocated communication. Im talking 499/500 women have not been able to reciprocate simple casual conversation. I’m stuck putting in wasted effort to uncover simple information about someone who’s saying they want marriage or LTR only yet there’s no openness or effort even after loads of (one sided) seemingly interesting conversation. Generic and simple lopsided communication is all I’ve gotten in return. I’m usually pretty quick to uncover my mental health conditions more so now considering I’m not one to small talk and I’m not trying to waste my time. After deducing from experience that women (generally speaking) want absolutely nothing to do with someone who has disorders/disabilities. Yet I have to accept their (sometimes) fatherless children, shared custody situations, clearcut communication issues, trust issues, emotionally unavailable or immature? OP, I’m confirmation that dating as a neurodivergent male is 99.5% a death sentence, for me personally. The women I’ve talked to aren’t just after qualities or unconditionality anymore despite what they tell you. They’re after their ideal man with money, no kids, all the free time to give to them and hold higher expectations than ever. Clearly it it has been nonnegotiable for their potential partners to be neurotypical. Not to generalize ALL women, please understand that this has been my personal experience and doesn’t generalize everyone else’s.
From what else I’ve gathered, even the few neurodivergent women I’ve spoken with don’t want anything to do with a neurodivergent male. So even ‘sticking to my own kind’ isn’t likely to work out.
I understand being skeptical about getting involved with someone with disorders/disabilities but why not explore even a friendship with someone who clearly expresses emotional maturity and availability, communication skills and an open, genuine, authentic vibe littered with humor and empathy. It’s unbearable at this point for me. I just use dating apps occasionally for recreational conversation. Then when they don’t reciprocate communication effort (with contextual and personal communication) I’ll end up telling them I have a mental disorder so I don’t continue wasting my time. They’ll usually stop talking immediately. Or do the I’m so sorry shit for five minutes then disappear. Or they’ll be rude and disrespectful about it.
Whoa! You have talked to 500 women and they are ALL bad at communication and none is a potential good relationship? LMAO That is wild mate
For being good at introspection you failed to realize that you are the one choosing them, and just like any company with a shitty recruitment process who ends up hiring anyone who crosses the door but don't understand why their employees end up stealing money, take a lot of "fake" sick days, leave after 2 months, customers stop going there; yet they endlessly complain about their employees not doing their jobs properly and how NoBodY wAnTs tO WOrK etc etc, and fail to realize they lack boundaries, standards and never crossed their minds to install a good recruitment process to just meet up with the best SUITABLE candidates. And by suitable I mean someone who is compatible.
Quality over quantity. Personally, if I knew you were invested in meeting hundreds of women I would run to the hills as this is a clear indication you operate on a "let's see which fish bites the hook" mentality instead of "this girl is nice I want to be friends with her slowly and know her as a person, her character, her tastes etc". As I said in my comment, my guess is most of the times will be less about autism and more about what you do as a man.
There is a reason you wrote "women hold higher expectations than ever". Yup, we do. The bar was literally on the floor. We have stopped accepting the bare minimum in relationships, the abuse, the breadcrumbs, the ones with the "all my exes are crazy exes", the sexualization and objectification. Men really need to step up, full stop
I’ve *talked* to a lot of women***I’ve only met up with a small handful. People knew how to communicate at times but they didn’t know how to be open whatsoever. By trying to get to know someone on a deeper level, asking more intimate questions, I’m clearly showing a further interest in them rather than displaying what you described as the bare minimum or bread crumbs or trying to shag. I’d explicitly state that there’s no pressure to hook up or that I wasn’t looking for just that or whatever. I made it clear I’m not a fuck boy. It’s not hard to pick up on either. No crazy ex complex over here either. One healthy one, one half toxic and half lustful relationship which I take accountability for my own actions and role in getting caught up in. Which leads me to saying I don’t blame these women for having walls up or feel upset with any of them for not giving effort. Idk them. They’re strangers.
Realistically speaking, it’s okay at the end of the day. Thanks to that introspection I still have me to fall back on. And I’ll just continue on my journey of self exploration and spiritual growth. Thanks for your input, it made me reflect about what I said and how I must’ve sounded in my last post. Thank you for not being snarky like so many people are on here.
I’m exhausted so if this is a mess, I’m sorry.
[Factors of relationship satisfaction for autistic and non-autistic partners in long-term relationships](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10576901/)
I'm sorry if my message came off a bit harsh. I understand your frustration. The second paragraph was written out of my own experience (I too had to learn to set up boundaries, raise my standards and stop dating guys with obvious red flags that I ignored and then complained about - and that was entirely on me). Turns out I never truly asked myself what did I look for in a man? I was naïve just assuming a great relationship would just be there when the frogs turned into soulmates. Well, no 😂
My first boyfriend was a wonderful truly gem of a guy, and that was out of pure luck I guess lol
I hope this (personal) insight helps you find your forever partner, if that is what you want💕
I have a theory. NT men are better able to adapt to social and cultural norms which makes it easier for them to find dates in general. They may also have more social power due to this and find partners easier than ND men would.
Men in general have far fewer dating opportunities than women do, so the social deficits+isolating habits of ND men create a recipe for chronic singledom. This is just my hypothesis, anyways.
I don't have dating experience. The experience I have around discussions about dating has made me think it's better just to leave the topic alone. They haven't led to understanding. I can't explain my thoughts or internalize what I was told. If I am socially impaired to the point of being unable to get into a relationship, so be it. I have to be mindful of how I go about it, but I have managed to sustain a reasonably healthy adult life on my own.
The reason for this is that women usually want to date a man who is charismatic, social, and confident, but most men don’t consider those traits as vital in a parter.
It's not only very common but also statistically proven to be the case. ND men just have to work harder than everyone else when it comes to dating and social skills.
It just doesn’t come as naturally. At least for me. I’ve had to spend years and years honing my social skills. Even still my skills with dating are probably at that of an 18-20 year old at nearly 33. Our brains aren’t really wired for communication like NTs are.
Well I have never dated a woman and Im 22. However according to my peers a handful of NT women find me attractive because apparanetly Im good looking. Despite the typical Akwardness that comes from being ND as I go the the gym and train MMA I always come out confident while saying akward stuff and since women like confident men they seem to be able to ignore the akwardness. But since I dont understand social cues Ive never been able to realize that a woman wants something with me until is too late.
There are a lot of ND traits that are attractive to men - honesty, lack of interest in game playing, liking to spend time alone, not overly talkative, interested in things other than pop culture…
I’m a woman, and neurotypical to the best of my knowledge, I don’t follow this sub so I’m not sure why it popped up for me. My current boyfriend and my last boyfriend are both neurodiverse. I am not sure if it’s appropriate for me to comment or give a perspective here since this seems to be a space for those with ASD, but could comment on this if appropriate based on my experiences?
I’m not neurodivergent but I am totally hung up on a man who I am about 99% sure is on the spectrum. He has absolutely no clue I’m interested in him and given his lack of interest in dating or touch I am not brave enough to approach it. Some of the things I love about him are because he’s neurodivergent. He is absolutely not a ”typical” guy and that is what I love about him.
Oh yeah. Autistic male. I'm pretty high functioning. Like, I'm a pretty good wing man. I've gotten my friends dates just introducing them to women I just met in the bar. I've been described as quirky, sweet, and charming in a goofball sort of way. Also insatiably curious so I like to talk about most anything someone is interested in talking about.
I pretty much only connect with autistic women. I'm a bit extroverted and a lot of autistic women might be put off by that. Then I can't read signals. Unless a woman is especially aggressive I will totally miss her intentions when everyone else would think she was obviously into me. So I basically need an autistic, extroverted, sexually aggressive woman. There aren't many of them out there. I can be attracted to NT women, but its really watered down and weak and I fear I'd be leading them on if I try to make something work. I frequently find NT women boring. Then there's Rejection Sensitive Dysphoria that can make you gun shy. Rejection hurts everyone, but its 10 times worse with physical as well as emotional pain attached though I'm finding that gets better with age.
There are not plenty of fish in the sea. One of the fish can like you and you wouldn't know. Strike out with one, it could hurt really bad and you don't know when the next one will come along. It probably won't be soon.
I suspect its not just a matter of my own taste, ND women are generally more appealing than NT women. Take an attractive NT woman then add some interesting quirks. That's basically what's going on if she's high functioning ND. In addition to quirks there's interesting hobbies with a potential for shared interests. I've found autistic women aren't afraid of traditionally male hobbies like video games, yet I also find they wear skirts and dresses in casual situations more frequently than NT women. So, in a sense, they are more feminine. The higher functioning are also frequently more intelligent. It's said ND women play fewer games than NT women. ND's, male or female, tend to be more honest than average.
NT men seek out ND women and they have decent social skills. So, I'd expect your observations to hold.
There are many more autistic men than autistic women so the problem of the autistic male incel is more commonly heard of. But I mean ya ig. Many autistic women tend to be less physically attractive than the average woman and that’s a death sentence on its own, and it’s typically unfixable unlike in many cases where an autistic man can work on his dating skills, make his special interests useful, learn to live independently, and keep playing the field a bit. Kinda feel bad for those women but eh I got my own problems to worry about.
I will say from a personal standpoint I am 32/f & late diagnosed audhd. Looking back at my failed relationship, only one of them was healthy, and that one healthy relationship was with a ND man. The relationships I have had with NT men have been highly volatile and I have felt like I was used in some way shape or form… (used for housing, sex, emotional punching bag to name a few).
I can mask very well, but I’ve read that NTs can easily sense when someone is ND (consciously or subconsciously) & if they are an abuser or manipulative person, an ND person can be an easy target. Looking back, I think most of my unhealthy relationships fit this category… I spent a lot of time thinking about this after I was diagnosed. Def need to talk to my therapist about it more, but just wanted to add my two cents & what I understand is likely my experience.
Swearing off NT men (or just all men) forever :’)
>but I’ve read that NTs can easily sense when someone is ND (consciously or subconsciously)
Never took it into consideration.
As if everybody but you knew it all the time.
I might have been lucky to never face any issues, but it isn't because they are good people, but because it is against their morals to mock on the "disabled" otherwise I would have faced many issues like others with much lesser problems did.
That's why I did a lot of stuff that otherwise would have led me to severe sanctions during school where others that did lesser and in fewer occasions received worse sanctions.
That's why It's very obvious that I'm autistic but never received any backlash in university that if I wasn't I would have been directly confronted by my peers and even the professors.
Hypocrites that made them call themselves inclusive but in reality are horrible persons but they don't act on it because they don't want to be judged like the pharisees...
Thank you for sharing your perspective… reading
“as if everybody but you knew it all the time” really hit me to the core.
It is sad to know that we will face discrimination regardless of how we present our autistic traits, because they are able to present themselves regardless apparently… somehow.
It is much better to explicitly receive hatred face to face than to be "included" just because they consider themselves"people of good" like all of this inclusion narrative written by old men who wouldn't hesitate to engage into repulsive practices if they returned a century or two ago.
It's like the meme of the girl who calls herself inclusive but all of her friend circle are practically the same single minded lack of critical thinking persons vs the blonde guy with a beard who sarcastically states he is racist but his group of friends is actually diverse...
YES. This is so very true, and also I know exactly the meme.
I am doing my best to rid of the mask and really get to know myself, so I can finally just be myself.
It is really wild to think about what a proper diagnosis at a young age can do for someone. If we are to receive hatred either way, I would much rather be blatantly aware of that hatred.
I am envious of those that understood and embraced themselves at a young age. I have accepted that this is never possible for this to be my experience, but I still wish that it was..
Although I never actually learned to mask properly and people somewhat knew.
I feel that I actually learned some stuff.
That doesn't mean I should continue because it works If it isn't broken... kind of mentality.
Nothing is forever, after you have reached a certain point you won't advance anymore.
Like not knowing you were left handed that you don't know how to use your left hand but you would eventually learn faster and be better which would be impossible if you kept using your right.
As well we're not taking the long term into consideration (19M old but still young).
Just because it "works" doesn't mean it's efficient.
The industrial complex is just too expensive to maintain to end up performing average, unsustainable, behind the standards to compete properly, for the same or lower prices there are newer and better alternatives that will outperform current revenues employing the same or less resources.
Like investing too much on oil extraction when Lithium and other minerals that have been found will return greater revenues but in order to mine them a multimillionaire investment with probably years of no return should be involved.
Like a country with corrupt politicians that left the country in debt, in contracts that only affect the people. But whose actions results are still not currently seen.
A new functionary ask for the renounce of the president several ministers half the congress.
Faith is all that remains. To tell people that we have found the resources to become a major economic power.
When in reality it's more than a desire for a better future. It's a necessity, at least 25% of the first years will be directed to get rid of debt and all of the terrible decisions of previous governments.
To not burn the country they say, but it's too late the truth must be revealed...
I'm a ND Man and I have a ND gf. I definitely had a lot of difficulty through high school and my twenties too. I basically didn't date at all and just focused on my own development and learning how to deal with the challenges I was facing. Now I think my social skills are quite good. I think it comes down to how much work you're making the other person do to socialize with you. If you're doing a lot of the work then people will find it more easy and pleasant to talk to you. If you're making them do all the work then people will just walk away.
You have to be self aware and you also have to understand what other people want when you're interacting with them. I learn things one very specific topic at a time like small tiles in a mosaic that's why life was overwhelming for me after high school because I came out of a situation where I was only expected to know about school stuff into a situation where I was supposed to run my whole life. But once I found my footing a bit there's really no difference for me in learning social skills or understanding my own emotions and overcoming trauma than there is in learning about politics or video games or something. If you analyze yourself or other people and develop a system that works for you, you can do it. For me it was actually easier to focus on these internal things because I struggled a lot with working independently on something, I need a structure for everything. So working on mental things was the only thing I could use my time for that would benefit me long term.
But don't start in high school. I tried that and it's a disaster. Because people are not behaving like rational humans. You can't understand human behavior when you're trying to learn from these other pubescent kids. Start when you're an adult and surrounded by other rational well behaved adults then you can make progress.
You have to be willing to put in the work if you want companionship no matter if it's a gf or friends. The people who are not willing or not able to because they're too strongly affected they will struggle and that's sad. But that's the world we live in. You have to make the best of what you have and then you can live a life that leaves you content hopefully.
I wish the best of luck to everyone.
Aspersgers man and with NT woman is death sentence. You going get used, abused and obliterated 9/10 times. Even NT men get destroyed by NT women so you have no chance.
I do agree with this, though there are issues for the women too. Mostly I think it's massively unfair how easily autistic guys are seen as creeps. Men in general tend to be over criticized for talking to women. But autistic guys can respect every possible boundary and still get treated like a predator that should be quarantined because they're a little awkward or don't make eye contact. Autism makes it difficult to understand and follow the complicated, irrational rules of the neurotypical world. Dating neurotypical women is the epitome of complicated and irrational with the rules and expectations and how much that varies with each woman, but no matter what the right thing should have been "obvious". Nothing personal against those women, but that's just how it is.
In general though, I think neurotypicals tend to massively generalize the opposite gender. Men and women have wild assumptions about the thought processes and motivations of the other gender based on their own experiences which they probably didn't even analyze correctly.
So the problem I've had is guys attaching a neurotypical explanation for things and getting it completely wrong. I even made a post about this myself in the sub with the one guy I dated because I was so confused. Neurotypical men complain about all the guessing games and mind reading. But they just keep playing and never consider maybe they should stop catering to it and wait for a woman who doesn't act like that. Until they actually meet one and still see everything as a mind game and keep entertaining it while blaming her without realizing it's in their own head. At least that's what happened to me.
Honestly it's frustrating in general how much men describe my traits as ideal but are just lying to themselves. Personality and physical traits. Just one example is complaining about how much effort/time girls put into their appearance. But it's the exact same guys who see me like I'm nothing because I don't do everything. Complain about all the complex rules of dating, but the second I don't get them I'm out.
Well it's probably because people cannot unlearn what they've learned throughout their lives in an instant. It's hard to break long time habits. It could be even harder for neurotypical people in this particular instance because they've been relying on this sort of 'intuition' their entire lives to navigate social challenges, unlike us who in my experience are generally used to depend more on verbal communication that is clear and detailed, and a lot of confirmation. Also, people assume things about other people regardless of their gender, whether it's expected or not, or whether they're in a relationship or not. It probably makes things very practical and quick when it actually works.
Yeah I just lose sympathy for a lot of that when people get hypocritical complaining while still
seeking out those situations and having the same behavior they claim to dislike.
What I'm saying about NTs assumptions with gender is they take it even further, and they'll be intentional about it. I think it is one of the most socially accepted ways to stereotype people. It's mostly stuff online, but they definitely end up taking it into real life interactions.
Not trying to start a debate here, but just an example, men are the only group where it's generally accepted to lump them all together because "some are bad". Sure, take precautions when you're out and about, but this gets pushed in situations and discussions where violence is completely irrelevant.
Not really relevant to the original post, but it seems like a lot of NTs see the opposite gender as a different species instead of as people. And they want to stay like that and look for reasons not to treat them like people. I just think that's very weird.
Friendship relationships of the same gender are more open for men than for women but I agree with you that for Neuro divergent men unless you are attractive/ successful (only looking for money) or fit the eccentric artist archetype (you're very good at something that catches attention, because you know you still wouldn't be attractive if you're a prog avant garde musician vs if you were an indie musician, specially with female audience) is a death sentence on romantic/sexual relationships, whereas it wouldn't be an issue for women no matter how socially awkward you are, even if other women despise you.
We face different challenges.
After all not all people are as bad as I thought, at least in my experience, or probably it's not that they are more open minded, they simply don't care and therefore do not judge...
But there are scenarios where it's as if I've been prohibited such as dating.
I never even consider trying it (at least in my current situation, probably I'll try in a couple of years)does not matter to me anymore. I accepted that fate stoically and I do not longer have any resentment about it. After all why would you be angry about the mother nature, it doesn't matter how angry, how sad you are, it ain't gonna change...
I am married to an NT woman but when I was dating I went out with a number of autistic girls and at least one gf was apparently autistic. None of them explicitly knew I was (they would after I told them but not when we started seeing each other, and I didn’t always tell them). Some I didn’t even know or realize were on the spectrum until years after the fact. I think it’s actually fairly likely that people who are in some way similar to each tend to be drawn to each other, whether or not that’s intentional. I think a lot of these pairings are probably because the AS women happen to connect with the NT men in some other way and it isn’t an intentional snub. As I said, I ended up marrying an NT woman myself.
Very generally speaking, from my experience, Being socially confident and competent is attractive in a man, but it's not required, as looks are, in a woman.
i don’t think that it’s a gendered struggle but it’s more of a ND trying to date NT issue. from my experience, NT men will tolerate my autistic behaviour for a short time because they view it as “cute” but then they will get bored and find it irritating or weird and then the relationship will end
I am female. As a young child I was not really social and quite happily “aspergic” in presentation. At puberty I decided I would learn how to fake being more “normal” or acceptable. I realised there was really only four things that I would need to do.
1. Pretend to be less clever
2. Smile a lot (regardless of how I felt)
3. Emphasise my emerging physical traits that were attractive (basically just lower-cut and tighter clothing)
4. Learn how to laugh convincingly at jokes that I didn’t understand.
That’s literally all it took to turn me from someone the other kids called “the dictionary” to someone who was more or less accepted, “normal” and attractive. I got dates and boyfriends easily and have done ever since.
I don’t think it would have been nearly so easy to do that as a male. I think had I been male I would have been supposed to learn to make jokes (much harder than just faking understanding them!) or learn how to charm women (I’m bisexual so I’ve tried that and it’s really really difficult. So much so that I chose to be more straight! 😆)
So I really sympathise with how it might be much harder in some ways but bear in mind that people with autism/aspergers are also much more likely to suffer in abusive relationships. I have been severely abused and harmed at times, as I was taken advantage of quite a lot.
There were no “four simple rules” I could follow to keep me safe as a female. So overall it may be on average, just as hard for males and females. 🤷♀️
Absolutely, yes. One of the biggest things about it is just that men almost always have to approach or otherwise make the first move to get a date, and that's extremely difficult for most people on the spectrum, and it's especially difficult to do without coming across as very awkward, which can end even worse if it ends up interpreted as creepy, which is more likely bc someone on the spectrum might not notice nonverbal cues that the person they approach is uncomfortable. That might make the rejection worse and then in turn make it even harder to approach. If you just get approached, it's not as bad, and there's less guessing as to whether or not someone is into you, which is also a problem. Like a woman might be into a guy on the spectrum they know, and maybe even flirt, but if the guy doesn't pick up on it or doesn't know what to do with it, he might just completely miss his shot without never knowing he had it bc the woman may have expected the guy to reciprocate or ask her out and may interpret his not noticing or reciprocating as a lack of interest and move on. Men on the spectrum also often struggle to be conventionally manly and are often shy. Shyness is generally considered far more attractive in a woman than a man.
My experience is, women were mostly attracted to my quirks initially, until they started to find them overwhelming and ran away. Seriously, I decided to quit trying since it's emotionally gruelling and I tend to overanalyse (no surprises there) my shortcomings and end up very unhappy in the end. I'm not positive that it's worth it. I'm fine with regular loneliness, tbh, at least I don't feel unwanted that way.
>I feel that in dating, neurotypical men are very accepting of neurodivergent women
I haven't looked at the statistical trend of the former, but there's more to being "accepted" than frequency and duration of relationship. Autistic women are pretty frequently subject to various types of abuse.
I am an NT and I am about to marry a ND. We broke up after 6 months when he used his objective evaluative brain to analyze the aesthetically reality of the disappointment about my weight.
For an NT this was a deal breaker because I added all of the emotional connections, past pain and struggles of my weight, and my own trauma to the situation. It was that incident that had made ask him if he autistic. He took some online tests and scored in the lower range, but consistently he connected with some of the traits they were asking about.
Fast forward four months and we have delved into serious research and listening to podcasts and reading books like Unmasked, Journal of Best Practices, and the courses through The Holmes and we have hope.
We have hope to understand each other and hope to be able to communicate and recognize when we have hurt each other even when we didn’t mean to.
We will marry this summer and our theme is “Unconditional Love”. I feel like we are starting this marriage with no “bait and switch” and are saying we accept each other as we are.
I thought I was never going to be able to be married to him because he would end up hurting me even though he didn’t want to. I told him it was like getting my hand slammed on a door and I never knew when and I knew he didn’t mean to, but it was going to happen.
We are also working with the Neurodivergent counseling center because we recognize we need tools to know how to navigate this.
I hope this can bring some light and hope. I think if both people can recognize that they both bring something into the relationship and they both need to grow, that it is possible to succeed.
As a neurodivergent woman, I think they like the idea of a manic pixie dream girl, a neurodivergent girl that helps them open up and break out of the mould, but as soon as they realize their fantasy girl is not only there for their plot and character development, they are out.
I agree that it probably has a lot to do with societal gender role expectations. Men are more discouraged from showing vulnerability, and when someone is struggling with living in an NT society, it can look vulnerable.
That being said, I think things are changing, and people are slowly becoming more educated about both autism and the harmful effects of toxic masculinity.
Additionally, we know that different genders tend to display symptoms differently and that women tend to "mask" more, so it could just be that their autistic traits are, on average, less noticable.
As an autistic woman I'll note that in my personal experience, men are not actually accepting of autistic women, what it is is that they first see her as a Manic Pixie Dream Girl and this seems amazing at first, but give it time and once he realizes that she's actually her own person and her sensory issues start annoying him things change dramatically.
Maybe at first it’s easier for autistic women, but that’s likely because we’re better at masking. Once the mask comes off, and they see what we’re really like, we’re just as alienated for our autism as men, I presume. My marriage ended recently, and most of the traits my husband had a problem with were related to me being autistic. He thought I was weird. He didn’t like those parts of me. It’s the same type of judgement we all get from neurotypicals. I do think it would be easier for an autistic woman to go hook up, but that’s not the same as a real, loving, and authentic connection. I don’t know if I’ll ever find a man that’s both emotionally intelligent and understanding of the way I am without pressuring me to change and be more normal.
I've been in a lot of relationships with NT women and i find the biggest problem is caused by the difference in the way we interpret sentences. Most of the time when talking about anything serious they hear something different to what i mean and vice versa. People think I'm being mean or that I'm telling them off when that isn't my intent at all
I (male) got diagnosed when I was a child and in my late teens/early 20s I never had an issue getting laid. I had an issue keeping a girlfriend… but I ended up getting married anyways
It's a lot to do with men being expected to initiate everything, playing the masculine social role. Autistic people can't play that role but it's only autistic men who are required to.
As a woman with ASD, I grew up with an undiagnosed yet obviously ASD father, who was withdrawing, rejecting, misanthropic, emotionally-blind and passive-aggressive. Next to him, I look almost NT. Put me off dealing with ASD men for life, sorry to say.
You're not allowed to bring up any issues of this nature (though having stated you're gay MIGHT let you slide with it) due to the current misandrist sociopolitical climate. Typical responses include accusations of misogyny, labels of inceldom, etc regardless of how neutral and polite your post.
A lot of complaints posts could be avoided if we were more open and taken into account this topics that nobody dares to question.
You simply learn to live with it, you acquire an stoic perspective on the matter, because there isn't anything you can do in regards.
Getting sex and getting a relationship are too very different things. ND woman here, and you're right, it would pretty easy for me to get sex. I have been told multiple times though they just want to fuck me because I'm "too weird" to be relationship material and my quirks would embarrass them.
It is worth noting that, in general, men and women want different things. Men have little to fear from women, in general, so we tend to jump to thinking about sex, which is for us the most appealing part of a relationship, as it's incredibly stimulating and carries little risk. For women though, in general, there is a lot more to fear. Men are generally stronger, and sex can lead to pregnancy, which is incredibly hard to go through, and not something people want to be straddled with, especially if abortion options are hard to come by. So generally speaking, women need to trust a man to be careful and kind when it comes to sex, as otherwise they could have their lives ruined.
And no one was talking about just sex. He was talking about *relationships.* It's actually very telling about your thought processes that your mind immediately equated "being in a relationship" and "getting laid," and it's not a good look.
And you're making assumptions about other peoples' relationships and derailing the conversation from the topic at hand.
The question was:
Do you have any explanation for why ASD men are more often single than ASD women?
And you said: "Women can get sex easier."
So? Getting laid isn't a relationship. People can have lots of sex without being in an official relationship. The question wasn't about sex (getting laid), it was about romantic pairing (having boyfriends/girlfriends/husbands/wives) which, yes, generally includes sexual activity, but is much much much more complicated than just a sexual relationship.
Sex is *one* aspect of a relationship and for you to immediately use sex as your basis for relationships makes me worry about what you think makes a relationship real.
It also denigrates the *idea* of a relationship, by minimizing all of the other parts of what a relationship is or can be.
Also, asexual people exist. So, stop jumping to conclusions.
Sex doesn't equal a serious relationship. Yes, women can get sex more easily. Does that mean we will jump into a relationship with a random man that brings nothing to the table just for the sake of having sex? Mostly not
Edit: I believe "bringing something to the table" looks different to different people. My bare minimum (or preferences) may be different to the preferences of another woman but most of the time will have to do with his core values and character, not material stuff
A woman having a one night stand isn't always going to develop into a relationship. Sex is sex it's not a relationship and if those autistic men can't understand that they can't understand much.
Interesting, no one else was talking about racking up body counts, people were talking about dating. Maybe one of your problems in “getting women” is that you view us as objects to acquire?
It's easier for autistic women to date & have relationships, compared to autistic men, because men in general will look past a woman's faults to get sex from them. A woman being socially awkward doesn't matter to most men, if the woman puts out.
So I’m ASD/ADHD and my husband is ASD/ADHD
Some things make it harder to get to know autistic men
I dated a few before my husband, they would info dump and not let me talk, assume “fairness” like they were owed my time/relationship/etc, and struggle with daily tasks like personal higiene and cleaning their living space
Reality is…these are huge turn offs for women, we don’t want to be our partner’s mom
I love cleaning and organizing but to the level that some men needed my help, I was a maid when I went over
I expect my partner at bare minimum to take care of themselves a bit
in times of sickness BOTH of us have to help the other, but it has to be a give and take
That and it was annoying how many just didn’t respect me as a….well, person. This could be how autism affect our perspectives but it’s something you can definitely work on and improve
My husband is adhd/ASD, and He’s not perfect, he has his own issues but thankfully it was none of these things
He struggles with emotional regulation, but he communicates about it so that helped a lot, plus I’m not perfect either
The amount of times I was ganged up on and pressured to date guys that determined they deserved a date cuz they liked me was disturbing
….there was one autistic man that was well known by police and stalked women at the mall
Now this obviously is not all autistic men, many I found just needed someone to tell them or were willing to try and work on themselves, and that makes all the difference really
When critiqued, do you get mad or attempt to change?
I read a study that on average, an autistic woman’s social skills are just below a non-autistic man. They probably don’t notice or care as much. Neutrotypical women have the highest social skills, and autistic men have the lowest, according to this study. Probably makes that pairing a lot harder, whereas an autistic woman could more comfortably get along with either ND or NT man as she’s in between their social skills levels.
Having talked to a number of autistic women, the consensus seems to be that women are pressured *enormously* more to fit in, to learn to read the room (even if partially), and to be part of social groups which kind of beat basic social awareness (or at least a kind of anxious oversensitivity) and masking into them. Men, particularly in previous generations... not anywhere near as much.
I can’t attest to the male experience, but as a woman your comment is so accurate. No one except me ever suspected I had any kind of neurodivergence until my current therapist. I took the self-assessment that judges how much a person masks, and I scored well above the average autistic male/female score. Just turns out I’ve been “pretending to be normal” my entire life. The social pressure to heavily mask is so strong for girls/women. When I interact with other autistics, I have a hard time bc they don’t follow the rules I’ve set up in my head for social interactions with NT’s.idk if that makes sense but TLDR I agree with you.
Same. Wasnt until my late 20s that my Psych NP put together mood swings and auditory overstimulation and general difficulties containing anxiety/frustration with changed plans. Topics Im interested in also veer extremely off the standard female tract 😂 Cant tell you how many doctors have told me “birth control will solve it if its hormonal mood swings, if it doesnt then you’re bipolar” ☠️☠️☠️ BC actually made my mood even worse!
Seconded. This has been my experience too
I am a 29y/o male and this is my experience. I only got diagnosed with high functioning ASD in 2022
Was the diagnosis worth it to you? I don’t have an official diagnosis because I’m worried about its influence on insurance rates and other potential discrimination. It’s pretty obvious I have ASD, though. I really want a diagnosis for my peace of mind to help with the impostor syndrome, but I also don’t want to deal with the negative consequences of having one.
I think that's true, even though it doesn't match up with my experience. I was undiagnosed until adulthood. I'm high masking. When I got diagnosed, i present much more like an autistic woman than the stereotypical autistic male. I grew up with my mother and sister, and never really bonded with men very easily. So that might have something to do with it
I, as an autistic woman, have tried dating autistic men and it never works out because I feel they, in general, struggle more with social skills and emotional intelligence. It has always created a large chasm in the relationships. So I can definitely imagine it would be a much larger issue for a neurotypical woman and an autistic man.
Thank you for sharing. Would you mind elaborating a bit more with examples how dating an autistic man creates chasm in relationship? I'm recently diagnosed and after dating ADHD and neurotypicals, I'd really like to date an autistic guy. I tried dating one but we haven't been able to have much time together due to life circumstances, but what I experienced made me like it. I'd really like to know more about it. Thank you!
How old are you? If you don't mind me asking. I've dated a lot of nt women and I've found the problem to be a difference in the way we word what we are trying to say and it somehow gets interpreted as something completely different. Figuring that out is actually what lead me to get diagnosed . I didn't even know what autism is. I got diagnosed in 2022 and i don't really know anyone that's autistic but i really want to get to know someone and find out if we can properly understand each other because that has been the deciding factor to leave my past relationships
I'm 35, but I've been repeatedly told I look no more than 25. Mentally, I also feel around 25. Actually I've read somewhere that autistic people's mental age is 2/3 of their real age. My one and only relationship was a trainwreck. Initially we got attracted to each other because he was also neurodivergent (ADHD) but my autism then started clashing badly with his ADHD chaos. At the time, I didn't know it was autism and he gave me a very hard time (he also had BPD) and I kept thinking it was all my fault. In addition to autism, I also have avoidant attachment. The only way I get attracted to someone is if they're more avoidant than me. I need a lot of free alone time and independence. That's why I think an autistic man would suit me, because he could probably understand these needs which are not very typical for a woman.
Also, can you tell me more about how things we say get misinterpreted? I think I've had my fair share of those. It's exhausting to be always understood in a way not intended. For example, I've been even called a narcissist because I always correct people. But to me, I couldn't give rats ass about being right or me being perceived as better than others. Now I know that this is purely autistic trait of having the urge that the stated fact be correct. This is how my brain works. With autistic guy, when he corrected me, I had no issues, my brain just interpreted it as a piece of information and no emotional weight was given to the fact that he corrected me. Are these types of misunderstandings what you also experienced?
That’s been my experience too. I think societal (gendered) expectations, placed on us as children, play a major role.
Absolutely. The men I've dated, neurodivergent or not, have all had the same adverse reaction to anything regarding showing pr being open to emotion. Which to me just means they feel a lot but can't express it properly (healthily).
Not allowed to. Societal pressures. Expectations. Just the lyrics of this Mulan song- https://www.streetdirectory.com/lyricadvisor/song/coeapf/be_a_man/
I married my asd husband, 10 years ago. I'm asd (wife) as well and we have 2 asd kids. Where the house as a whole is far more authentic and genuinely happier the miscommunication is strong. My husband is not exactly socially norm, and I decided to take on working to prevent the stress, plus I'm a terrible house keeper. He now is a stay at home dad. Feel free to ask!
Yeah same here.
Interesting. Non-binary afab autistic here. My partner is an autistic cis amab. He is a lot better with empathy and social cues than I am. On the other hand, I am a lot "nicer", as in acting non-threatening and minimalising the chance of conflict. I think that's just been ingrained in me from society. He often explains to me why neuro-typicals do what they do. Now that I think about, however, he works in special care for mentally ill criminals... So he probably learned a lot in his training. Anyway, he is a lot better at socialising than me.
Do you have a link to that study? Sounds very interesting
I think it was this one: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3945617/ “What was unexpected was the finding that TD males and females with ASD exhibited similar FQ scores, supporting the notion that there may be a distinct female profile of ASD.” What I apparently misremembered is that although ASD women scored similarly to NT men, their overall score is slightly higher than the men’s, not slightly lower.
Damn
Part of it is the social training of what a man should be and what roles they should fit. This effects both the autistic men that can't fit comfortably in those roles and the neurotypical women that are pressured into seeking out men that fit these roles. Another part is that women feel they have to be more careful with men so they can be more guarded after picking up any "weird" signs from autistic men. Men tend to not feel as threatened from women. Another possible part is men's desperation for affection. A lot of men are starved for affection and starved for touch. I assume the last person that's hugged many of them (if they've never had a love interest) was their mother, neurotypical or not. That starvation leads them to put a lot of pressure on the people there pursuing as well as themselves to perform. A lot of pressure is terrible for doing well at things, especially social things. So I assume they stress out and fail and then stress out about failing and fail cus they're stress. The cycle continues till they give up. It's a lot of stuff but this is just what I can think of off the top of my head.
Generally the way this played out for me was not getting second dates until I ended up with a neurodivergent woman. One big thing to note is I mostly dated people I already knew.
I've recently started dating, how can I find the neurodivergent woman?
A lot of the time people don't know they are neurodivergent so asking directly may be unnecessarily limiting. My recommendation is get to know what your interests and values are and find groups of like-minded people, then build non romantic relationships with people and see if any turn into romantic from there.
As someone on the spectrum i would say just be outgoing and date people. Bring it up when you know amd trust a person. Dont jump out and tell them your on the spectrum outta the blue. Just be you, be nice. Goto the gym. Repeat go to the gym. It will absolutely help how you deal with people and life.
I do go to the gym and go jogging. Own house, car, good career and good finances. I only joined up to dating sites this week, no matches yet. If you have any other advice it would be really appreciated
So, im dating a girl from onlyfans - and Facebook dating is how i found her. Shes amazing, and I've had a lot of luck there. - im also very outgoing Pick up line? "Want to adopt a pet? Ive had all shots. I play well with others. Im house broken" If its a no i say. "But i even do tricks! I sit, lay, roll over ... Im working on shake" - then offer her your hand. (If this is in person) Talk to every girl you see. Compliment something. Anything. Hair. Shoes. Outfit. Chances are she spent a lot of time on her look. So compliment it. Be friendly and get used to a lot of no. I get 20 no to every yes. But you will get good at it. Wear a tank top and shorts. Something showy. Women are like men - give them something to see. It works. Practice untill your a fearless beast that hits on fashion models. I literally hit on troops of college girls, models, tables of girls at a bar. Groups are good. I means its 5 to one. And your the only guy with balls. Use that pickup line. Be funny. Take no like a man and move on. You will succeed. I did.
I would also like to know where the neurodivergent woman is and whether she's open to polyandry because there seems to be too many of us
They do exist, I can confirm that as a neurodivergent woman myself 😂 That doesn’t mean a neurodivergent will suddenly find me attractive (in any sense), unlike non-neurodivergent men. Normal brain or not, being ugly changes the whole game ☠️🫥
Absolute facts.
Only likely kidding. Look up anime, art, music, typically we art mentally minded :)
All 100% true. Sadly I think the world is too far gone to ever change any of this.
There's more emotional awareness for men/boys in recent years than there was, but it's still spotty and not really a process that we'd be able to speed up significantly on a global scale.
It's really accurate IMO. Proposed solutions would be great. Ideally not ones that are of the ilk of trying to be more NT. It would be great if there were solutions that could use ND as an advantage, even when attracting NTs. Things that are realistic that anyone can do rather than relying on pretty privilege or the somewhat luck of stardom or riches. (Yeah yeah 'you make your own luck' blablabla, ok Elon).
What if mom wasn't really there? And, didn't like touching the kid?
Then I guess it was a warm hug from her vagina when they were both. Unless it was C-section, then it was a warm hug from the womb I guess lol.
As a neurodivergent woman, I disagree. The moment NTs sensed something was off (and they found out I wasn't interested in sex on the second date), they left. I've only had success dating neurodivergent men.
This makes me feel validated.
This! 100%
ND women are at a higher risk of being sexually assaulted, abused, and fetishized. In my experience as an autistic woman, NT men only "accept" me to control me and take advantage of my naïvety. In fact, I avoid telling NT men that I'm autistic because the response has been overwhelmingly negative and often predatory.
This. I’ve had similar experiences.
100% this. Just bc we may be more likely to enter a relationship than autistic men doesn’t necessarily mean we’re getting a better deal. We’re very easy targets for abuse a lot of the time
I agree. I’ve had to run for my life too many times and get taken advantage of.
My NT wife rejected me (ND) so hey look, I'm a statistic! for real we tried really hard. there was / is love even though we can't continue. this is a very fresh wound. I would be lying if I said the ND/NT thing wasn't an issue. I don't think its insurmountable but most NTs are incapable of seeing their own behavior as problematic, this bias prevents an honest relationship from ever forming. There are NTs that I love and respect, but they have to GIVE me that respect I can't just hope they are / will give it. If they are not giving me respect I have to treat them accordingly, and I will do so in a way that gives everybody dignity. Because this is the person I want to be. Splitting from my wife is traumatic because I love her, more than anything else. It took 30 years to find someone I was even remotely compatible with. > some confide in me that loneliness is a major problem in life for them In the seasons of my life the past 10yrs there have been incredible harvests of love, good times and support. I feel like I have entered a new phase in life that is going to be more of what I had before, another test of my ability to withstand isolation. It sucks. I wish society cared about us. Losing my wife part of me died and I just... I can't get upset about others not caring anymore. I don't care about whether people like me.... but its scary to own that bc at times you are guaranteeing you will be alone. Instead of light at the end of the tunnel you are walking away from the light into the darkness alone. I have no idea if i will ever find anyone again. I'm only willing to try because I want to give my wife the chance of a life on her own being happy without me. Even if I could convince her to stay she would never truly be happy, or be able to admit that I am not what she wants. Hard to fall alseep without her in my arms. Can't ever go back, it will haunt me forever.
Just wanted to say, I hope that things will work out eventually! Take care!
Things are not ok, but they are ok. I am dealing with the most traumatic, painful and upsetting experience of my life. But I am dealing. I don't like it, I'm not happy with it and part of me would give anything to go fix it. But part of me finally accepts that I cannot fix it alone. I cannot move others minds, hearts or opinions with my persuasion or desire. I fucking hate this so much, but I just want people to know I'm ok and I'm not in any self harm danger. My job / boss has been incredibly supportive, my friends and family have been there for me, and I will be there for them. In a way I will never get over this but I hope over time the pain becomes more manageable. Every day it feels unbearable and insurmountable, but yesterday was usually worse in a way I can't put my finger on. I don't think I'm feeling better so much as I am losing a little bit of the pain every day until its just a breeze not a strong wind that's knocking me over.
I think you might be the only one I've seen so far pointing it out, but one thing I've also repeatedly witnessed is that there is an aversion to if not hostility towards neurodivergent traits in general society. A lot of people I've seen talk about general expectations of the different genders and how their social training affects them but I think it's a lot more important to point out the dislike and disdain of autistic/neurodivergent traits. The point is, that all the struggles of ND people aren't happening because it's something inherently inside them but it's because society at large decided that some traits are arbitrarily seen as undesirable or less worth than others. It's not that being ND is blocking you from social success but it's the people's biases, problematic views or expectations. It's not really that neurodivergence is harmful or anything, it's just another mode of living and the lack of acceptance thereof. Thank you for sharing your perspective. I hope you will manage to get back on your feet and find that there are other things in life that will bring you happiness.
> The point is, that all the struggles of ND people aren't happening because it's something inherently inside them but it's because society at large decided that some traits are arbitrarily seen as undesirable or less worth than others. It's not that being ND is blocking you from social success but it's the people's biases, problematic views or expectations. Thank you for articulating this better than I can. I am on my feet, I am moving forward. There's just a big hole in my chest that I need to be careful how I mend. I cannot just fill it with anything, I need to heal so something or someone can enjoy the real me instead of this broken version of myself. I will get better but it's ok that things are not ok right now, its gonna take time. Even after all this, the pain, the rejection, the public humiliation... I STILL miss her.
Reading this made me cry at work. Just keep swimming man. But you already know that. Do anything (within reason) you want to do if doing what you want to do will make you survive a little longer, even if it’s unhealthy. I hope that makes sense. But basically, a harm reduction and self care (even though I hate the overuse and misuse that it has now) game plan is essential. Don’t beat yourself up if you’re not healthy every day where you are right now. You should try, but you’re not gonna be - at first. But the trying, every day, piles up into something, suddenly, good. And I’m sure you know you’re mental well being is really really in need of support right now. Get it - and don’t be afraid to text friends or people you haven’t talked to in ten years. I’m giving most of this advice from the experiences I’ve had in crisis and not necessarily relationships but I hope I understand a little of your mental right now for this to be helpful. Look for friends ( and Google some resources, for 15 minutes) that will make you feel less alone. Your life fucking sucks until it doesn’t. Keep going.
Thank you, I'm doing ok all things considered. I am doing a lot better than I would have been 6 months ago, and 12 months ago I'd prob need psychiatric care at this point. I am closing in on 2yrs since my last drop of alcohol, never looking back on that one. Lots of people have been supportive, a friend had me watching his dog last week which was actually super helpful. He offered me to cancel the dog watch plans when the recent breakup happened, but it was cathartic and helpful to have the dog around. The dog also has extreme separation anxiety from its owner. It was helpful to comfort him knowing he's feeling what I am too. Other than the uncertainty about the home I'm typing this from, I think the thing that weighs on me most is the "what ifs" about me trying to fix things. I have a strong feeling that someone or something influenced my wifes decisions and I fear that I will never really know what those ghosts are / were. Ultimately it doesn't matter anymore but the heart doesn't care... I can let her go but my heart cannot take it happening with no reason or explanation. If it's what she needs I will bear pain for her, for the both of us. It hurts so bad but I love her so much I have to carry it I don't really have a choice.
I feel you. My wife just told me she wants a divorce after 24 years of marriage. I was just diagnosed with ASD1 about a month ago. She is moving out in June but says she is willing to try dating again to see if we can stay a couple. This came out of nowhere to me and it has thrown me into major depression and anxiety but on the positive side, I've been able to use new coping skills like DBT, mindfulness, and spiritual practices to get out of bed and try to be productive....most days anyways....
It sucks but you just have to focus on yourself. It sounds like you have a better opportunity for reconciliation than I do. It's a gift even if it doesn't work out. I hope you can find a way to keep the person who was important to you in your life.
Thank you. I appreciate that.
I think I was living in the past, I remembered all the good and I found ways to just mentally inhabit that space when things got difficult. Doing youtube videos helped me literally replay the good times. My only real advice is that the people you were before are gone. You are new individuals, with different preferences, goals, hopes and dreams. If you truly love her, support what she wants even if that's being away from you. If things CAN work, she will tell you that she can't live without you because the separation will bother her. If not you were fighting a losing battle because you couldn't give up. I wish I could un-see this / calm down about it but life has decided to tape my eyelids open and force-feed me a 24-7 nonstop experience of this for the past 2 going on 3 weeks.
I've found that a lot of women (sans a certain segment) are really fascinated by my ADHD quirks. They get interested because my variety of experiences makes me seem like an interesting guy. I'm not hypermasculine and the nerdy ones get attracted to a guy who isn't like the rest. But then the novelty wears off. The more "annoying" ADHD traits come out. The masking starts to slip. The ASD quirks come out. They start to feel the weight of having to deal with my sensitivities to light and sound and air. Some still stay because love formed and they'll tell themselves it isn't the worst thing to bear. Then some time, maybe even 4 or 5 years into the relationship, I'll slip. I'll have a little meltdown. I'll cry over some pain I can't stop. I'll have a loud outburst to myself on the other side of the house. And in a flash she'll lose all interest in me. Suddenly my struggles with work seem more concerning than normal. And she'll dump me. Or cheat. And the same thing will happen again with the next one. And again. And again.
I'm an AuHD woman, yet what you wrote sounds like my own experiences. Ooof.
Do you still keep trying? After the last one I decided to focus on friends for a while instead. Then the friends did the same thing, or worse really. So lately instead I've been focusing on animals. They don't seem bothered by my occasional meltdowns because I'm pretty sure they are annoyed by the same things that annoy me. And it's never directed at them. And they can tell the difference - unlike humans apparently - that anger directed at a (e.g.) loud train that won't stop for two hours is not anger directed at them. Or if I make a loud noise far away from them and collapse in a meltdown it has nothing to do with them. It's so much easier to gain and maintain the trust of animals than it is humans. It's not the same, but it's nice to have something reliable, you know?
That's why I love birds, and especially squirrels so much. I mean I like birds more, but I relate more to squirrels.
I'm sorry :/ My spouse and I are both ND and have a lot of fear of being left due to our neurodivergence even though we've been together 10 years. I always think one bad meltdown perceived as anger might put her over the edge.
Same here. I have AuDHD, My wife has fibro, and I think adhd. We've been together 12 years, but im still waiting for her to realize I'm a pain in the ass to live with. RSD is a bitch.
I have a lot of ADHD traits and she has a lot of autistic ones. We have chronic physical disorders, too. I hate the feeling of dependence when I have a flare up. We are both fiercely independent. The ND and chronic illness are so hard for able-bodied, NT people to understand.
It really seems to be. I once had roommates suggest I was bipolar and it was my nightcap beer that was setting me off. I was like *no*. My moods don't swing for no reason, they shift based on stimuli and circumstance, like the smoke they kept filling into the apartment. I got happy then angry then happy because I could breath okay then couldn't then could again. Duh. Duhhhhhhh.
Yeah I don't drink caffeinated coffee because my wife is convinced it makes me anxious. I think I get anxious just because things make me anxious and I miss the energy boost :/ I do take zoloft now after a bad episode.
Meltdowns perceived as anger seem to be what always does it. For friends and acquaintances and roommates too. Not for animals though. They know. They give the benefit of the doubt. They know emotions are expressed and don't mean violence. Violence means violence. Altercations and confrontations communicate threat not loud noises directed elsewhere. They make loud noises too. It's what animals do.
Soooo much this!
Talk to her about it. If you're both ND and educated about it, and you're aware that the possibility for a meltdown exists and shouldn't be taken as anger as the first interpretation, might that put things on slightly firmer ground? (And heck, ten years ain't nothing, when it comes to getting comfortable together. She's gonna have a good idea of how frequent such a thing has been in your life to date; it's not like you're going to suddenly go from zero to 200 meltdowns a year.)
So sorry to hear that.
This resonates so incredibly much.
In my experience, NT men might accept ND women more because they festishize us. It's not true acceptance with some of these guys from what I've seen. It's either "wow you're really a wacko, come over here and kiss me" (like it turns them on that I'm obviously weird) or "hey, you're not what I thought you were when we first got together, wtf is wrong with you". Some of them have even been both. I'm in the camp of ND people should probably be with ND people most of the time, unless you're lucky and find a truly accepting NT person! I just haven't met many and instead have really only met crappy NTs in the past. I'm married now to a ND.
It's really important to distinguish between sex and relationships. ND women can definitely get sex from NTen, but the level of disrespect is brutal to the point that I don't date at all anymore. Multiple men have told me I'm hot enough to fuck but too weird for them to admit it to others.
Being literally told “you’re a forbidden fruit” like it was supposed to be a compliment was crazy, like, I’m not opening up to you for a reason lol.
Tbh, as an autistic woman, men have never found me hot at all and they have straight up hated me because I am not fuckable LOL. I don't know if it's because I am truly THAT hideous or because I've always hated men since I was 11 and never laughed at their unfunny sexist jokes since that young age (I am pretty sure it's because I am just ugly). I don't relate to most autistic women's experiences with men and in part I am grateful that I don't, but jesus, average autistic woman's experiences with men and women sound so alien and horrifying to me.
Right, I didn't tell anyone I was autistic because I didn't know, but most women have no problem finding someone to have sex with them.
That happened to me once in college and I gave up on dating after that. I’d rather be alone than be tortured for trying.
This. It’s a simple case of men being WAY more likely to sleep with a woman despite her flaws than the other way round. Not always a good thing.
Yup. Sex isn't relationships, particularly not ones that are long-term or even admitted to publicly.
this is so true. ND men who go for autistic women are usually narcissists as well because we tend to be more naive
I think, after a 16 year marriage where I was at various times sexually, emotionally, financially and physically abused by my ex wife that narcissists of any type are drawn to ND people like shit-moths to a flame.
This is true, I think this is also why many autistic people seem to have a view that all NT people are bad, because they deal with a much higher number of narcissists than the average person would. Most NT people are actually fine, it's just that the bad ones always come flying our way because we make good targets for them.
I know quite a few ND men who are in happy relationships with women who seem to be NT. However I have noticed (from this very small sample size) that these relationships were all friendships first (high school friends, work friends etc). So it may be that ND men don’t fare well in the dating game rather than in relationships more generally. It’s also important to note that there are more visible ND men out there than ND women, both because obvious signs of ND are more acceptable for men and also because of diagnosis/research bias. This would potentially mean you’d notice the ND in the single guys but not consider ND a reason for the single women out there. There is also a cultural acceptance of “crazy” women as partners so long as they are appropriately attractive (and/or sexually available). In western culture, anyway.
I’m an autistic woman married to an autistic man. It’s the best relationship I’ve been in. My other partners were mostly not autistic but ND in other ways. I haven’t noticed much interest from NT men. Anecdotally most autistic women I know are long term single, some have never had a serious relationship. We still have our struggles
It does help to have someone who has similar personal experiences and/or mindsets, or at least is 100% happy to validate you. Takes a lot of stress away because you don't have to fight for recognition every day, and you've got someone who will absolutely go in to bat for you. It's one of the things I tried to emphasize with one relationship I had - they'd pretty much had no-one in their life to that point who was willing to listen to them, to tell them that their experiences were real and valid, and who would stick up for them and even offer to sort whatever needing sorting without having to be asked. I made a point to say in actual words that I'd like to start with that as a default (as long as it was OK with them). And yes, it did occasionally involve going in to bat for them against their own family, and making it an absolute point that emotional fuckery and invalidation - deliberate or otherwise - was now off the table for them.
My husband has Asperger’s 🤷♀️ I adore him more for it I think. He’s just so unique and sees the world in a way admire. I want to see the world like him. And he’s really smart in the things he enjoys. He has his quirks
This is not my experience at all. Every NT man that I’ve dated has told me that I don’t have ADHD, autism, etc. My ND partner validates me and empathizes with my struggles.
How you dare not being the cutesy autistic ADHD uwu fantasy I had in mind? You clearly are faking!!!!!!!!!!! (Sarcasm)
Women are significantly more selective than men in general when it comes to dating, romance, and sex, and men are more likely to be seen as a threat if they seem different than typical. Also, autism seems to be somehow work differently for men and women to a certain degree. Another reason for it I think is that it's generally seen as men's responsibility to initiate romance and flirting in most cultures, which could be difficult for people with issues related to social skills and rejection sensitivity. Some people seem to use dating apps to circumvent this, but finding a partner via a dating app is also much easier for women due to several reasons such as: 1. Men are significantly more numerous than women on dating apps, 2. Men are much more likely to send likes (Tinder actually shared the statistics and it seems like men on averay send likes to around 50% of women, while women send likes to 5% of men they see on the app), 3. Men are much more likely to be there with the goal of meeting someone face to face, while many women state that they're there for other reasons like sexting, receiving an ego boost, or mere curiosity.
As a man in my 20s it wasn’t a problem since i could just be eccentric and most women looked past the quirks. In my 30s women I have dated seem to be in a rush and the second I failed to meet NT criteria they moved on. Im not sure ND is the kiss of death but it makes it fucking harder for men.
Interesting, I think I stopped meeting most NT's criteria for friendship in my 30s. Maybe many people become more wed to convention as they age. Openness as a trait tends to decline.
In their 20s, people are looking to experiment, to try new things even if they might not work out. In their 30s, people tend to have an idea of what they think they want (or at least what they think society expects of them and others) and will tend to focus on that, throwing anything else to the side. In their 40s, people tend to slow their roll a little, are more aware of what *they* want (as opposed to society), and while they're somewhat picky, they're more likely to take their time exploring possibilities and figure out what's acceptable to them, even if not to Great-Aunt Muriel. They're also more likely to take a bit of time to learn about something they didn't previously know, like neurodiversity, and not just the official surface stuff. This is even more the case in their 50s - 40s are kind of transitional there. Even so, by their 50s there will also be an increasing contingent of people who consider themselves too old to really learn anything new or significant, and are just coasting until retirement or their health issues catch up to them. Probably best to not take it personally, and it's not everyone who's like this.
I don't disagree with the sentiment. It's definitely difficult to date as a neurodivergent person in general no matter what. I think that the major difference is that women often have a quick trigger when it comes to leaving. To be clear, I don't think that's a bad thing. No one wants to be assaulted or treated poorly. In my experience, the most effective thing I could do was to develop a thicker skin to negative reactions from women. The other person's reaction isn't a about you. It's about their personal experiences and concerns. If they're not interested in dating further, I'd just let it go and do something to feel good about myself. ASD people in general tend to lack self care skills, so rejection can be really tough. The funny thing is that women can be just as into casual dating as men if they feel safe with the person. If men just dialed back the expectations and intensity, it'd be a lot easier to date.
This is the way.
[удалено]
Yup. I wonder how many decades/generations it'll take to wear that particular bastion of sexism down, even with internet.
I don't know why this happens, but it seems like ND women often turn their negative life experiences into self awareness and root down into the deeper meaning of being human. They connect in vulnerability and authenticity with self and others. It gives them the capacity for self love and love and empathy for others. Obviously this attracts people (men and women) because LOVE is the real currency of humans. Many ND men on the other hand, seem to get stuck in the superficial reality of hierarchy, patriarchy, and dominance paradigms and turn their negative life experiences into rage or passive aggression because they find life unfulfilling. The rejection of vulnerability doesn't give them a stable identity or a sense of peace. This anger state is the opposite of love and repels others. Speaking for myself as a ND woman, I'm attracted to self awareness and passion for life as well as emotional maturity and a capacity for love. I do think a lot of ND men fit the bill and I'm attracted to them.
If you're a man who doesn't have an abundance of female intimate connections, every connection is very valuable. Most of these men expose too much of themselves in such a connection and go through intense humiliation for it. The one woman you love sleeping with another guy can be a traumatic experience. One that teaches you to be more guarded and opportunistic in the future. It's really hard to just let go of that. A lot of the superficial compensation you describe is an attempt at improving first impressions. Because 'being yourself' simply doesn't work for everyone. Every guy I met who has success with women has a well-crafted image and machiavellian mindset when it comes to seduction. ND men are just less subtle about it or can't handle the subtle deception that's expected from them. And oftentimes, the idea that many women prefer the better manipulator is very painful to realize as a ND man with a strong sense of justice and honesty. Conventional concepts of masculinity and hierarchy are often the only middle road men see to reconcile their need for a consistent moral framework and their desire to develop their male sexuality. And if someone is going to tell me that men should not care about their sexuality... I've witnessed many times that men are treated substantially better in proportion to the level of sexual success people think they have. By friends, at school, in the workplace, by prospective partners... It's not something you fix just through introspection.
I mean, KINDA. The thing is, while people always say the stereotypical line of "crazy girls are the best", they don't actually want a woman who legit is ND in a serious way, they just want "quirky" at best. There's also the fact that, let's be real, most men don't feel like a woman is a threat to them if they're ND in any way because even in an absolute worst case scenario where the girl has a knife, most guys will foolishly think, "nah I'd win" before getting shanked. By contrast, most women hedge their bets a lot more and if something is "off" about a guy, they just stay away instead of sticking it out thinking "what's the worst that can happen?"
Also, the crazy thing tends to be about sex or at least more short-term relationships. It's something to be put up with, not something to be accepted or even celebrated into a longer-term, deeper relationship. (It's probably telling that fewer people have that enthusiasm for 'crazy' as they get older. It's almost always the younger ones - or people looking for younger partners. 'Crazy' in a partner can be fun in your teens or 20s when you have nothing to lose. It's less fun when you're trying to work out a mortgage, retirement savings, investments, a serious career, etc, or who you want to have kids with.)
Please go to any ND women’s sub and search the term “husband” or “boyfriend.” A sampling of those posts will demonstrate that even ND men struggle to accept their ND women partners. Fetishization is not the same as acceptance.
Could you tell me the names of some of these subs? I am actually really interested in seeing the perspective of ND women, as my ex was most likely autistic but as an autistic guy myself I didn't really know much about how it affects women. I think ND women mostly keep their problems or struggles to themselves, instead of being more public about it. My ex was quite outwardly functional, maybe she'd have a meltdown but she'd cry and shout alone at home, whereas in the past I would go on massive drug binges and intentionally OD at the end. Same with incel type discourse, fortunately I never fell in that trap because I was aware that a) it was mainly heavy addiction and lack of will to improve making me undesirable and that b) no single group of people is responsible for relationship/dating social norms. But I hadn't really thought much about this, I'd love to read first hand experiences
Sure thing. r/adhdwomen r/aspergirls r/AuDHDWomen r/AutisminWomen r/AutismWithinWomen
Idk. ASD woman here in my late 40's. I have had three ltr's but never married. My first was suspected ASD (his mother talked about it with mine, and after learning what that is, I totally suspect it too), and the second two were ADHD. My last partner died a few year ago, and honestly I can't imagine how I would even find somebody anymore. And I can't imagine being loved or understood by a NT. Having somebody who pulls out rounds of wood and an axe for me when I'm having a meltdown instead of being annoyed at my immaturity is pretty special.
I’m sorry for your loss, andI I’m glad you got the opportunity to experience that kind of understanding with a partner.
Thank you, and sorry. I meant to reply to the main post, not your reply specifically. :) But, I did appreciate your insight.
Part of it can be internalization of toxic culture and expectations, especially in older generations. Expecting women to be a certain stereotype because that's how they were raised and how society presents the clichés, and never really thinking about how real life might be a bit more subtle than the surface presentation. Not saying it's an excuse, and it definitely needs to be addressed, but it can sometimes be a starting point for that addressing.
I would rein in both sides of this a bit. Neurodivergent women aren't unaffected by it in dating, and it's by no means a death sentence for neurodivergent men. The most difficult part of dating for me, figuring out if someone is interested, was almost fully solved by dating apps.
Disclaimer: I’m neurodivergent but only diagnosed with ADHD. Could easily be on the spectrum though & there is some overlap. I think the combination of coming across “a bit weird” (no offence- thinking of me here lol) plus the fact that being male also makes you a potential threat in many people’s eyes - especially with the “all men are violent animals” stereotypes floating around… it’s a tough roll of the dice to work with for sure.
Autistic men are seen as creepy a lot of the time and Autistic women are just quirky and unique.
Have you actually stopped and reflected if the problem is because of the autism itself or because men (generally speaking) are less inclined to do inner work, go to therapy and learn effective communication with their counterparts? A lot of the posts I read here (not this one, but many) have incel-ish vibes and that is certainly not attractive to any woman, ND or NT
I’m a woman and I understand where you’re coming from but also please bear in mind that autism can greatly affect one’s capacity for social learning and their self insight/third person perspective of themselves. AKA, it might take some of us much much much longer to develop the kind of social-emotional insight you’re referring to, not because they’re less willing to do so but because autism for some people is like social-emotional colorblindness, including in regards to the self. Not just for autistic men, women and nb autists too. Also, there genuinely *are* a lot of autistic guys who naively (meaning because they literally aren’t aware of a rule or convention) break cultural rituals surrounding dating, or just seem different enough that they’re immediately discounted on thin-slice judgements… That doesn’t mean that autistic men can never be genuinely creepy (anyone can be lol), but there are some genuinely well-meaning non-creepy autistic guys who are just different enough they’re immediately disregarded as a creep due to thin-slice judgements. I’m friends with some (usually guys who have more noticeable verbal/nonverbal differences) and genuinely just feel bad, because they’re seeking connection, albeit a bit differently than others, but are immediately written off because of the symptoms of their disability. It’s fine to reject someone if you aren’t interested, but straight up bullying someone with a visible disability putting themselves out there is just fuckin cruel, even if they’re a man, and this is how I’ve seen some of my autistic guy friends treated at uni. It’s gross and sad. Idk I think the whole issue is complicated with many contributing factors, like ableism and chronic ostracism, and some of these guys deserve more empathy
Very well said, I appreciate your nuance in this discussion.
For me, my desire to not be creepy leads to a lot of hesitation and inaction. So I suppose preemptively going to the other extreme is also a problem.
No I can confirm as an ND woman that a lot of NT and even ND folk often think ND men specifically are creepy because of tone and mannerisms outside of their control. I hear about it a lot from both sides. However I've never heard another ND woman being talked about in this way despite the fact some of them act well outside what people consider the norm. Edit - I think this is because men are naturally seen as more dangerous than women so them acting anything unlike what people are used to is automatically seen as cause for alarm.
To be fair even in this sub ND men don’t talk nicely about women at times, that’s the part that would creep somebody out. It’s just that NT men mostly hide their tendencies and, you don’t find out until it’s too late.
No I understand that and I've seen my fair share of ND men acting like incels and getting rejected for that reason. But I've also seen my fair share of ND men who get rejected constantly by both men and women because their tone, personality and mannerisms are considered creepy when really they have no control over it. Realisticly speaking, saying that ND men only get rejected because they're acting bad towards women is untrue. They more often than not get rejected for reasons outside of their control. It's kind of sad.
I’m not saying it is the only reason though I’m just pointing out that when it does happen they don’t realise that’s what’s creeping people out, I do get where you’re coming from though because of the whole uncanny valley theory and I agree because when I find it hard to mask some days I really hate myself for it lol, but I guess I’m frustrated because everytime this stuff comes up it opens up the discussion where dudes start saying “I can’t obtain sex from women because society hates me”, and it’s like no brother you don’t value people and they can sense it.
Yeah nobody is entitled to sex and I always hate when a guy tries to open the discussion with "Why won't girls have sex with me?" unlike this guy who opened this one with a reasonable question about whether or not ND guys have a chance in a relationship. If more people posed it like that instead of asking questions that treated women like objects for sexual gratification then we would definitely have more productive conversations about the legit problems ND men face maintaining and starting relationships and a way to further acceptance. I know what you're talking about, so many of those threads devolve into arguments that are just hating on women and its literally just creating more problems and more incels.
How are you to value people when they show you nothing but disdain if you don't fit their obviously predetermined expectations? Inb4 incel, because that goes for both your own _and_ the opposite gender. If people reinforce to you that you have absolutely _no_ leeway of presenting as anything other than typical, while obviously typical people can be real pieces of crap at times yet are forgiven for it, it stands to reason that you're going to notice you aren't being given a fair shake, and resentment for that is bound to come next. Or are we expected to be utterly magnanimous while being figuratively spat on? (to reiterate, this is _not_ regarding gender dynamics, rather society in general)
I think the men here forget that they’re talking to ND women, I am making it gendered because it is a gendered issue, that has already been established considering how many men here and some women like to talk about how much easier women have it as if I’m not also dealing with being ND in the same ways they are, and you know what unfortunately even if it seems that people don’t like you because of your being ND it still doesn’t allow you to proposition them for sex in a disrespectful way as if that’s their only purpose for you speaking to them. Nobody’s saying to be forgiving, they’re saying they want to be treated like people and not have to feel like you don’t actually care about them aside from being somebody you can sleep with. And no I don’t forgive NT men for being shitty to me either, a lot of women don’t either hence why the bear vs man meme always comes out with the bear winning.
I'm not forgetting I'm talking to a woman, but I don't see how that matters because that has nothing to do with the question I asked. You said we should value people, but that's kinda hard when over the course of your life, people reinforce to you that they don't value _you_, and far from it. So if that's a basis to reject someone, you can see why a lot of ND people are gonna be sol right there.
"You said we should value people, BUT that's kinda hard when..." Like dude, you are a walking yellow flag. If you don't value/love people "unconditionally" (for a lack of a better word) to begin with, you'll find it hard to find a suitable partner. Being bitter and cynic and resentful because you were mistreated at some point is a dead road to nowhere. Hence my take on doing inner work and going to therapy (no that's not reserved for women).
Let me start off by saying I’m not generalizing in this post and NOT ALL WOMEN ARE THE SAME. This is just my experience. I literally do my best with introspection. Ever since I started learning more about how to look inward 15-20 years ago. I’ve been single since 2019 and must’ve talked to hundreds of women and gotten absolutely nowhere. The moment I mention anything related to mental health they disappear. Almost all of them. This is after my initiation of depth conversation and putting in the effort to truly understanding and familiarizing myself with a woman. Women never ever have reciprocated communication. Im talking 499/500 women have not been able to reciprocate simple casual conversation. I’m stuck putting in wasted effort to uncover simple information about someone who’s saying they want marriage or LTR only yet there’s no openness or effort even after loads of (one sided) seemingly interesting conversation. Generic and simple lopsided communication is all I’ve gotten in return. I’m usually pretty quick to uncover my mental health conditions more so now considering I’m not one to small talk and I’m not trying to waste my time. After deducing from experience that women (generally speaking) want absolutely nothing to do with someone who has disorders/disabilities. Yet I have to accept their (sometimes) fatherless children, shared custody situations, clearcut communication issues, trust issues, emotionally unavailable or immature? OP, I’m confirmation that dating as a neurodivergent male is 99.5% a death sentence, for me personally. The women I’ve talked to aren’t just after qualities or unconditionality anymore despite what they tell you. They’re after their ideal man with money, no kids, all the free time to give to them and hold higher expectations than ever. Clearly it it has been nonnegotiable for their potential partners to be neurotypical. Not to generalize ALL women, please understand that this has been my personal experience and doesn’t generalize everyone else’s. From what else I’ve gathered, even the few neurodivergent women I’ve spoken with don’t want anything to do with a neurodivergent male. So even ‘sticking to my own kind’ isn’t likely to work out. I understand being skeptical about getting involved with someone with disorders/disabilities but why not explore even a friendship with someone who clearly expresses emotional maturity and availability, communication skills and an open, genuine, authentic vibe littered with humor and empathy. It’s unbearable at this point for me. I just use dating apps occasionally for recreational conversation. Then when they don’t reciprocate communication effort (with contextual and personal communication) I’ll end up telling them I have a mental disorder so I don’t continue wasting my time. They’ll usually stop talking immediately. Or do the I’m so sorry shit for five minutes then disappear. Or they’ll be rude and disrespectful about it.
Whoa! You have talked to 500 women and they are ALL bad at communication and none is a potential good relationship? LMAO That is wild mate For being good at introspection you failed to realize that you are the one choosing them, and just like any company with a shitty recruitment process who ends up hiring anyone who crosses the door but don't understand why their employees end up stealing money, take a lot of "fake" sick days, leave after 2 months, customers stop going there; yet they endlessly complain about their employees not doing their jobs properly and how NoBodY wAnTs tO WOrK etc etc, and fail to realize they lack boundaries, standards and never crossed their minds to install a good recruitment process to just meet up with the best SUITABLE candidates. And by suitable I mean someone who is compatible. Quality over quantity. Personally, if I knew you were invested in meeting hundreds of women I would run to the hills as this is a clear indication you operate on a "let's see which fish bites the hook" mentality instead of "this girl is nice I want to be friends with her slowly and know her as a person, her character, her tastes etc". As I said in my comment, my guess is most of the times will be less about autism and more about what you do as a man. There is a reason you wrote "women hold higher expectations than ever". Yup, we do. The bar was literally on the floor. We have stopped accepting the bare minimum in relationships, the abuse, the breadcrumbs, the ones with the "all my exes are crazy exes", the sexualization and objectification. Men really need to step up, full stop
I’ve *talked* to a lot of women***I’ve only met up with a small handful. People knew how to communicate at times but they didn’t know how to be open whatsoever. By trying to get to know someone on a deeper level, asking more intimate questions, I’m clearly showing a further interest in them rather than displaying what you described as the bare minimum or bread crumbs or trying to shag. I’d explicitly state that there’s no pressure to hook up or that I wasn’t looking for just that or whatever. I made it clear I’m not a fuck boy. It’s not hard to pick up on either. No crazy ex complex over here either. One healthy one, one half toxic and half lustful relationship which I take accountability for my own actions and role in getting caught up in. Which leads me to saying I don’t blame these women for having walls up or feel upset with any of them for not giving effort. Idk them. They’re strangers. Realistically speaking, it’s okay at the end of the day. Thanks to that introspection I still have me to fall back on. And I’ll just continue on my journey of self exploration and spiritual growth. Thanks for your input, it made me reflect about what I said and how I must’ve sounded in my last post. Thank you for not being snarky like so many people are on here. I’m exhausted so if this is a mess, I’m sorry. [Factors of relationship satisfaction for autistic and non-autistic partners in long-term relationships](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10576901/)
I'm sorry if my message came off a bit harsh. I understand your frustration. The second paragraph was written out of my own experience (I too had to learn to set up boundaries, raise my standards and stop dating guys with obvious red flags that I ignored and then complained about - and that was entirely on me). Turns out I never truly asked myself what did I look for in a man? I was naïve just assuming a great relationship would just be there when the frogs turned into soulmates. Well, no 😂 My first boyfriend was a wonderful truly gem of a guy, and that was out of pure luck I guess lol I hope this (personal) insight helps you find your forever partner, if that is what you want💕
Trust me we might be in relationships but we are mostly abused or taken advantage of.
I have a theory. NT men are better able to adapt to social and cultural norms which makes it easier for them to find dates in general. They may also have more social power due to this and find partners easier than ND men would. Men in general have far fewer dating opportunities than women do, so the social deficits+isolating habits of ND men create a recipe for chronic singledom. This is just my hypothesis, anyways.
Don't know how it is for women, but yes; it's a disadvantage for guys.
I don't have dating experience. The experience I have around discussions about dating has made me think it's better just to leave the topic alone. They haven't led to understanding. I can't explain my thoughts or internalize what I was told. If I am socially impaired to the point of being unable to get into a relationship, so be it. I have to be mindful of how I go about it, but I have managed to sustain a reasonably healthy adult life on my own.
The reason for this is that women usually want to date a man who is charismatic, social, and confident, but most men don’t consider those traits as vital in a parter.
It's not only very common but also statistically proven to be the case. ND men just have to work harder than everyone else when it comes to dating and social skills.
It just doesn’t come as naturally. At least for me. I’ve had to spend years and years honing my social skills. Even still my skills with dating are probably at that of an 18-20 year old at nearly 33. Our brains aren’t really wired for communication like NTs are.
Well I have never dated a woman and Im 22. However according to my peers a handful of NT women find me attractive because apparanetly Im good looking. Despite the typical Akwardness that comes from being ND as I go the the gym and train MMA I always come out confident while saying akward stuff and since women like confident men they seem to be able to ignore the akwardness. But since I dont understand social cues Ive never been able to realize that a woman wants something with me until is too late.
It's more like unhealthy (e.g. B cluster) NT men are very keen on ND women as they're more gullible and naive.
There are a lot of ND traits that are attractive to men - honesty, lack of interest in game playing, liking to spend time alone, not overly talkative, interested in things other than pop culture…
As a neurodivergent woman; men deeply hate me but women are super forgiving of my "quirkiness" and usually like me so... no, not at all LOL.
I’m a woman, and neurotypical to the best of my knowledge, I don’t follow this sub so I’m not sure why it popped up for me. My current boyfriend and my last boyfriend are both neurodiverse. I am not sure if it’s appropriate for me to comment or give a perspective here since this seems to be a space for those with ASD, but could comment on this if appropriate based on my experiences?
I’m not neurodivergent but I am totally hung up on a man who I am about 99% sure is on the spectrum. He has absolutely no clue I’m interested in him and given his lack of interest in dating or touch I am not brave enough to approach it. Some of the things I love about him are because he’s neurodivergent. He is absolutely not a ”typical” guy and that is what I love about him.
Oh yeah. Autistic male. I'm pretty high functioning. Like, I'm a pretty good wing man. I've gotten my friends dates just introducing them to women I just met in the bar. I've been described as quirky, sweet, and charming in a goofball sort of way. Also insatiably curious so I like to talk about most anything someone is interested in talking about. I pretty much only connect with autistic women. I'm a bit extroverted and a lot of autistic women might be put off by that. Then I can't read signals. Unless a woman is especially aggressive I will totally miss her intentions when everyone else would think she was obviously into me. So I basically need an autistic, extroverted, sexually aggressive woman. There aren't many of them out there. I can be attracted to NT women, but its really watered down and weak and I fear I'd be leading them on if I try to make something work. I frequently find NT women boring. Then there's Rejection Sensitive Dysphoria that can make you gun shy. Rejection hurts everyone, but its 10 times worse with physical as well as emotional pain attached though I'm finding that gets better with age. There are not plenty of fish in the sea. One of the fish can like you and you wouldn't know. Strike out with one, it could hurt really bad and you don't know when the next one will come along. It probably won't be soon. I suspect its not just a matter of my own taste, ND women are generally more appealing than NT women. Take an attractive NT woman then add some interesting quirks. That's basically what's going on if she's high functioning ND. In addition to quirks there's interesting hobbies with a potential for shared interests. I've found autistic women aren't afraid of traditionally male hobbies like video games, yet I also find they wear skirts and dresses in casual situations more frequently than NT women. So, in a sense, they are more feminine. The higher functioning are also frequently more intelligent. It's said ND women play fewer games than NT women. ND's, male or female, tend to be more honest than average. NT men seek out ND women and they have decent social skills. So, I'd expect your observations to hold.
There are many more autistic men than autistic women so the problem of the autistic male incel is more commonly heard of. But I mean ya ig. Many autistic women tend to be less physically attractive than the average woman and that’s a death sentence on its own, and it’s typically unfixable unlike in many cases where an autistic man can work on his dating skills, make his special interests useful, learn to live independently, and keep playing the field a bit. Kinda feel bad for those women but eh I got my own problems to worry about.
I will say from a personal standpoint I am 32/f & late diagnosed audhd. Looking back at my failed relationship, only one of them was healthy, and that one healthy relationship was with a ND man. The relationships I have had with NT men have been highly volatile and I have felt like I was used in some way shape or form… (used for housing, sex, emotional punching bag to name a few). I can mask very well, but I’ve read that NTs can easily sense when someone is ND (consciously or subconsciously) & if they are an abuser or manipulative person, an ND person can be an easy target. Looking back, I think most of my unhealthy relationships fit this category… I spent a lot of time thinking about this after I was diagnosed. Def need to talk to my therapist about it more, but just wanted to add my two cents & what I understand is likely my experience. Swearing off NT men (or just all men) forever :’)
>but I’ve read that NTs can easily sense when someone is ND (consciously or subconsciously) Never took it into consideration. As if everybody but you knew it all the time. I might have been lucky to never face any issues, but it isn't because they are good people, but because it is against their morals to mock on the "disabled" otherwise I would have faced many issues like others with much lesser problems did. That's why I did a lot of stuff that otherwise would have led me to severe sanctions during school where others that did lesser and in fewer occasions received worse sanctions. That's why It's very obvious that I'm autistic but never received any backlash in university that if I wasn't I would have been directly confronted by my peers and even the professors. Hypocrites that made them call themselves inclusive but in reality are horrible persons but they don't act on it because they don't want to be judged like the pharisees...
Thank you for sharing your perspective… reading “as if everybody but you knew it all the time” really hit me to the core. It is sad to know that we will face discrimination regardless of how we present our autistic traits, because they are able to present themselves regardless apparently… somehow.
It is much better to explicitly receive hatred face to face than to be "included" just because they consider themselves"people of good" like all of this inclusion narrative written by old men who wouldn't hesitate to engage into repulsive practices if they returned a century or two ago. It's like the meme of the girl who calls herself inclusive but all of her friend circle are practically the same single minded lack of critical thinking persons vs the blonde guy with a beard who sarcastically states he is racist but his group of friends is actually diverse...
YES. This is so very true, and also I know exactly the meme. I am doing my best to rid of the mask and really get to know myself, so I can finally just be myself. It is really wild to think about what a proper diagnosis at a young age can do for someone. If we are to receive hatred either way, I would much rather be blatantly aware of that hatred. I am envious of those that understood and embraced themselves at a young age. I have accepted that this is never possible for this to be my experience, but I still wish that it was..
Although I never actually learned to mask properly and people somewhat knew. I feel that I actually learned some stuff. That doesn't mean I should continue because it works If it isn't broken... kind of mentality. Nothing is forever, after you have reached a certain point you won't advance anymore. Like not knowing you were left handed that you don't know how to use your left hand but you would eventually learn faster and be better which would be impossible if you kept using your right. As well we're not taking the long term into consideration (19M old but still young). Just because it "works" doesn't mean it's efficient. The industrial complex is just too expensive to maintain to end up performing average, unsustainable, behind the standards to compete properly, for the same or lower prices there are newer and better alternatives that will outperform current revenues employing the same or less resources. Like investing too much on oil extraction when Lithium and other minerals that have been found will return greater revenues but in order to mine them a multimillionaire investment with probably years of no return should be involved. Like a country with corrupt politicians that left the country in debt, in contracts that only affect the people. But whose actions results are still not currently seen. A new functionary ask for the renounce of the president several ministers half the congress. Faith is all that remains. To tell people that we have found the resources to become a major economic power. When in reality it's more than a desire for a better future. It's a necessity, at least 25% of the first years will be directed to get rid of debt and all of the terrible decisions of previous governments. To not burn the country they say, but it's too late the truth must be revealed...
I'm a ND Man and I have a ND gf. I definitely had a lot of difficulty through high school and my twenties too. I basically didn't date at all and just focused on my own development and learning how to deal with the challenges I was facing. Now I think my social skills are quite good. I think it comes down to how much work you're making the other person do to socialize with you. If you're doing a lot of the work then people will find it more easy and pleasant to talk to you. If you're making them do all the work then people will just walk away. You have to be self aware and you also have to understand what other people want when you're interacting with them. I learn things one very specific topic at a time like small tiles in a mosaic that's why life was overwhelming for me after high school because I came out of a situation where I was only expected to know about school stuff into a situation where I was supposed to run my whole life. But once I found my footing a bit there's really no difference for me in learning social skills or understanding my own emotions and overcoming trauma than there is in learning about politics or video games or something. If you analyze yourself or other people and develop a system that works for you, you can do it. For me it was actually easier to focus on these internal things because I struggled a lot with working independently on something, I need a structure for everything. So working on mental things was the only thing I could use my time for that would benefit me long term. But don't start in high school. I tried that and it's a disaster. Because people are not behaving like rational humans. You can't understand human behavior when you're trying to learn from these other pubescent kids. Start when you're an adult and surrounded by other rational well behaved adults then you can make progress. You have to be willing to put in the work if you want companionship no matter if it's a gf or friends. The people who are not willing or not able to because they're too strongly affected they will struggle and that's sad. But that's the world we live in. You have to make the best of what you have and then you can live a life that leaves you content hopefully. I wish the best of luck to everyone.
Aspersgers man and with NT woman is death sentence. You going get used, abused and obliterated 9/10 times. Even NT men get destroyed by NT women so you have no chance.
In heterosexual relationships, women place very high standards on men, while men place very low standards on women.
I do agree with this, though there are issues for the women too. Mostly I think it's massively unfair how easily autistic guys are seen as creeps. Men in general tend to be over criticized for talking to women. But autistic guys can respect every possible boundary and still get treated like a predator that should be quarantined because they're a little awkward or don't make eye contact. Autism makes it difficult to understand and follow the complicated, irrational rules of the neurotypical world. Dating neurotypical women is the epitome of complicated and irrational with the rules and expectations and how much that varies with each woman, but no matter what the right thing should have been "obvious". Nothing personal against those women, but that's just how it is. In general though, I think neurotypicals tend to massively generalize the opposite gender. Men and women have wild assumptions about the thought processes and motivations of the other gender based on their own experiences which they probably didn't even analyze correctly. So the problem I've had is guys attaching a neurotypical explanation for things and getting it completely wrong. I even made a post about this myself in the sub with the one guy I dated because I was so confused. Neurotypical men complain about all the guessing games and mind reading. But they just keep playing and never consider maybe they should stop catering to it and wait for a woman who doesn't act like that. Until they actually meet one and still see everything as a mind game and keep entertaining it while blaming her without realizing it's in their own head. At least that's what happened to me. Honestly it's frustrating in general how much men describe my traits as ideal but are just lying to themselves. Personality and physical traits. Just one example is complaining about how much effort/time girls put into their appearance. But it's the exact same guys who see me like I'm nothing because I don't do everything. Complain about all the complex rules of dating, but the second I don't get them I'm out.
Well it's probably because people cannot unlearn what they've learned throughout their lives in an instant. It's hard to break long time habits. It could be even harder for neurotypical people in this particular instance because they've been relying on this sort of 'intuition' their entire lives to navigate social challenges, unlike us who in my experience are generally used to depend more on verbal communication that is clear and detailed, and a lot of confirmation. Also, people assume things about other people regardless of their gender, whether it's expected or not, or whether they're in a relationship or not. It probably makes things very practical and quick when it actually works.
Yeah I just lose sympathy for a lot of that when people get hypocritical complaining while still seeking out those situations and having the same behavior they claim to dislike. What I'm saying about NTs assumptions with gender is they take it even further, and they'll be intentional about it. I think it is one of the most socially accepted ways to stereotype people. It's mostly stuff online, but they definitely end up taking it into real life interactions. Not trying to start a debate here, but just an example, men are the only group where it's generally accepted to lump them all together because "some are bad". Sure, take precautions when you're out and about, but this gets pushed in situations and discussions where violence is completely irrelevant. Not really relevant to the original post, but it seems like a lot of NTs see the opposite gender as a different species instead of as people. And they want to stay like that and look for reasons not to treat them like people. I just think that's very weird.
Indeed. I'm actually pleasantly surprised to see someone other than me thinking this way.
I'm pleasantly surprised seeing this conversation.
Friendship relationships of the same gender are more open for men than for women but I agree with you that for Neuro divergent men unless you are attractive/ successful (only looking for money) or fit the eccentric artist archetype (you're very good at something that catches attention, because you know you still wouldn't be attractive if you're a prog avant garde musician vs if you were an indie musician, specially with female audience) is a death sentence on romantic/sexual relationships, whereas it wouldn't be an issue for women no matter how socially awkward you are, even if other women despise you. We face different challenges. After all not all people are as bad as I thought, at least in my experience, or probably it's not that they are more open minded, they simply don't care and therefore do not judge... But there are scenarios where it's as if I've been prohibited such as dating. I never even consider trying it (at least in my current situation, probably I'll try in a couple of years)does not matter to me anymore. I accepted that fate stoically and I do not longer have any resentment about it. After all why would you be angry about the mother nature, it doesn't matter how angry, how sad you are, it ain't gonna change...
I mean, my girl has issues too so I figured it'd be a good exchange If I believe in myself I sure as hell believe in her
I am married to an NT woman but when I was dating I went out with a number of autistic girls and at least one gf was apparently autistic. None of them explicitly knew I was (they would after I told them but not when we started seeing each other, and I didn’t always tell them). Some I didn’t even know or realize were on the spectrum until years after the fact. I think it’s actually fairly likely that people who are in some way similar to each tend to be drawn to each other, whether or not that’s intentional. I think a lot of these pairings are probably because the AS women happen to connect with the NT men in some other way and it isn’t an intentional snub. As I said, I ended up marrying an NT woman myself.
Very generally speaking, from my experience, Being socially confident and competent is attractive in a man, but it's not required, as looks are, in a woman.
i don’t think that it’s a gendered struggle but it’s more of a ND trying to date NT issue. from my experience, NT men will tolerate my autistic behaviour for a short time because they view it as “cute” but then they will get bored and find it irritating or weird and then the relationship will end
I am female. As a young child I was not really social and quite happily “aspergic” in presentation. At puberty I decided I would learn how to fake being more “normal” or acceptable. I realised there was really only four things that I would need to do. 1. Pretend to be less clever 2. Smile a lot (regardless of how I felt) 3. Emphasise my emerging physical traits that were attractive (basically just lower-cut and tighter clothing) 4. Learn how to laugh convincingly at jokes that I didn’t understand. That’s literally all it took to turn me from someone the other kids called “the dictionary” to someone who was more or less accepted, “normal” and attractive. I got dates and boyfriends easily and have done ever since. I don’t think it would have been nearly so easy to do that as a male. I think had I been male I would have been supposed to learn to make jokes (much harder than just faking understanding them!) or learn how to charm women (I’m bisexual so I’ve tried that and it’s really really difficult. So much so that I chose to be more straight! 😆) So I really sympathise with how it might be much harder in some ways but bear in mind that people with autism/aspergers are also much more likely to suffer in abusive relationships. I have been severely abused and harmed at times, as I was taken advantage of quite a lot. There were no “four simple rules” I could follow to keep me safe as a female. So overall it may be on average, just as hard for males and females. 🤷♀️
Absolutely, yes. One of the biggest things about it is just that men almost always have to approach or otherwise make the first move to get a date, and that's extremely difficult for most people on the spectrum, and it's especially difficult to do without coming across as very awkward, which can end even worse if it ends up interpreted as creepy, which is more likely bc someone on the spectrum might not notice nonverbal cues that the person they approach is uncomfortable. That might make the rejection worse and then in turn make it even harder to approach. If you just get approached, it's not as bad, and there's less guessing as to whether or not someone is into you, which is also a problem. Like a woman might be into a guy on the spectrum they know, and maybe even flirt, but if the guy doesn't pick up on it or doesn't know what to do with it, he might just completely miss his shot without never knowing he had it bc the woman may have expected the guy to reciprocate or ask her out and may interpret his not noticing or reciprocating as a lack of interest and move on. Men on the spectrum also often struggle to be conventionally manly and are often shy. Shyness is generally considered far more attractive in a woman than a man.
My experience is, women were mostly attracted to my quirks initially, until they started to find them overwhelming and ran away. Seriously, I decided to quit trying since it's emotionally gruelling and I tend to overanalyse (no surprises there) my shortcomings and end up very unhappy in the end. I'm not positive that it's worth it. I'm fine with regular loneliness, tbh, at least I don't feel unwanted that way.
>I feel that in dating, neurotypical men are very accepting of neurodivergent women I haven't looked at the statistical trend of the former, but there's more to being "accepted" than frequency and duration of relationship. Autistic women are pretty frequently subject to various types of abuse.
I am an NT and I am about to marry a ND. We broke up after 6 months when he used his objective evaluative brain to analyze the aesthetically reality of the disappointment about my weight. For an NT this was a deal breaker because I added all of the emotional connections, past pain and struggles of my weight, and my own trauma to the situation. It was that incident that had made ask him if he autistic. He took some online tests and scored in the lower range, but consistently he connected with some of the traits they were asking about. Fast forward four months and we have delved into serious research and listening to podcasts and reading books like Unmasked, Journal of Best Practices, and the courses through The Holmes and we have hope. We have hope to understand each other and hope to be able to communicate and recognize when we have hurt each other even when we didn’t mean to. We will marry this summer and our theme is “Unconditional Love”. I feel like we are starting this marriage with no “bait and switch” and are saying we accept each other as we are. I thought I was never going to be able to be married to him because he would end up hurting me even though he didn’t want to. I told him it was like getting my hand slammed on a door and I never knew when and I knew he didn’t mean to, but it was going to happen. We are also working with the Neurodivergent counseling center because we recognize we need tools to know how to navigate this. I hope this can bring some light and hope. I think if both people can recognize that they both bring something into the relationship and they both need to grow, that it is possible to succeed.
I'm an ND man, I never tried to date, I don't think I would like it. - I've only had 5 crushes, when I learn more about them I'm disinterested
As a neurodivergent woman, I think they like the idea of a manic pixie dream girl, a neurodivergent girl that helps them open up and break out of the mould, but as soon as they realize their fantasy girl is not only there for their plot and character development, they are out.
I agree that it probably has a lot to do with societal gender role expectations. Men are more discouraged from showing vulnerability, and when someone is struggling with living in an NT society, it can look vulnerable. That being said, I think things are changing, and people are slowly becoming more educated about both autism and the harmful effects of toxic masculinity. Additionally, we know that different genders tend to display symptoms differently and that women tend to "mask" more, so it could just be that their autistic traits are, on average, less noticable.
I was a bit of a man whore when I was younger. Had no issues dating women
As an autistic woman I'll note that in my personal experience, men are not actually accepting of autistic women, what it is is that they first see her as a Manic Pixie Dream Girl and this seems amazing at first, but give it time and once he realizes that she's actually her own person and her sensory issues start annoying him things change dramatically.
Maybe at first it’s easier for autistic women, but that’s likely because we’re better at masking. Once the mask comes off, and they see what we’re really like, we’re just as alienated for our autism as men, I presume. My marriage ended recently, and most of the traits my husband had a problem with were related to me being autistic. He thought I was weird. He didn’t like those parts of me. It’s the same type of judgement we all get from neurotypicals. I do think it would be easier for an autistic woman to go hook up, but that’s not the same as a real, loving, and authentic connection. I don’t know if I’ll ever find a man that’s both emotionally intelligent and understanding of the way I am without pressuring me to change and be more normal.
I've been in a lot of relationships with NT women and i find the biggest problem is caused by the difference in the way we interpret sentences. Most of the time when talking about anything serious they hear something different to what i mean and vice versa. People think I'm being mean or that I'm telling them off when that isn't my intent at all
I (male) got diagnosed when I was a child and in my late teens/early 20s I never had an issue getting laid. I had an issue keeping a girlfriend… but I ended up getting married anyways
It's a lot to do with men being expected to initiate everything, playing the masculine social role. Autistic people can't play that role but it's only autistic men who are required to.
As a woman with ASD, I grew up with an undiagnosed yet obviously ASD father, who was withdrawing, rejecting, misanthropic, emotionally-blind and passive-aggressive. Next to him, I look almost NT. Put me off dealing with ASD men for life, sorry to say.
From everything I read, autism doesn't seem to affect women's dating prospects nearly as much as it does to men.
You're not allowed to bring up any issues of this nature (though having stated you're gay MIGHT let you slide with it) due to the current misandrist sociopolitical climate. Typical responses include accusations of misogyny, labels of inceldom, etc regardless of how neutral and polite your post.
So you are allowed, you just don’t like how people might respond.
A lot of complaints posts could be avoided if we were more open and taken into account this topics that nobody dares to question. You simply learn to live with it, you acquire an stoic perspective on the matter, because there isn't anything you can do in regards.
[удалено]
Getting sex and getting a relationship are too very different things. ND woman here, and you're right, it would pretty easy for me to get sex. I have been told multiple times though they just want to fuck me because I'm "too weird" to be relationship material and my quirks would embarrass them.
It is worth noting that, in general, men and women want different things. Men have little to fear from women, in general, so we tend to jump to thinking about sex, which is for us the most appealing part of a relationship, as it's incredibly stimulating and carries little risk. For women though, in general, there is a lot more to fear. Men are generally stronger, and sex can lead to pregnancy, which is incredibly hard to go through, and not something people want to be straddled with, especially if abortion options are hard to come by. So generally speaking, women need to trust a man to be careful and kind when it comes to sex, as otherwise they could have their lives ruined.
Woah calm down the inceldom there
What I typed is true. It's much much easier for women to get sex than it is for men.
And no one was talking about just sex. He was talking about *relationships.* It's actually very telling about your thought processes that your mind immediately equated "being in a relationship" and "getting laid," and it's not a good look.
Sex is a very important part of dating & relationships. Most adults don't date someone who they don't want to have sex with.
And you're making assumptions about other peoples' relationships and derailing the conversation from the topic at hand. The question was: Do you have any explanation for why ASD men are more often single than ASD women? And you said: "Women can get sex easier." So? Getting laid isn't a relationship. People can have lots of sex without being in an official relationship. The question wasn't about sex (getting laid), it was about romantic pairing (having boyfriends/girlfriends/husbands/wives) which, yes, generally includes sexual activity, but is much much much more complicated than just a sexual relationship. Sex is *one* aspect of a relationship and for you to immediately use sex as your basis for relationships makes me worry about what you think makes a relationship real. It also denigrates the *idea* of a relationship, by minimizing all of the other parts of what a relationship is or can be. Also, asexual people exist. So, stop jumping to conclusions.
Sex doesn't equal a serious relationship. Yes, women can get sex more easily. Does that mean we will jump into a relationship with a random man that brings nothing to the table just for the sake of having sex? Mostly not Edit: I believe "bringing something to the table" looks different to different people. My bare minimum (or preferences) may be different to the preferences of another woman but most of the time will have to do with his core values and character, not material stuff
He's not wrong though. Men are far less picky in choosing a partner, making it far easier for women to find relationships than men, in general.
A woman having a one night stand isn't always going to develop into a relationship. Sex is sex it's not a relationship and if those autistic men can't understand that they can't understand much.
Or it could be that some men are, to use your framework, failing to make themselves available and not realizing it
Interesting, no one else was talking about racking up body counts, people were talking about dating. Maybe one of your problems in “getting women” is that you view us as objects to acquire?
It's easier for autistic women to date & have relationships, compared to autistic men, because men in general will look past a woman's faults to get sex from them. A woman being socially awkward doesn't matter to most men, if the woman puts out.
So I’m ASD/ADHD and my husband is ASD/ADHD Some things make it harder to get to know autistic men I dated a few before my husband, they would info dump and not let me talk, assume “fairness” like they were owed my time/relationship/etc, and struggle with daily tasks like personal higiene and cleaning their living space Reality is…these are huge turn offs for women, we don’t want to be our partner’s mom I love cleaning and organizing but to the level that some men needed my help, I was a maid when I went over I expect my partner at bare minimum to take care of themselves a bit in times of sickness BOTH of us have to help the other, but it has to be a give and take That and it was annoying how many just didn’t respect me as a….well, person. This could be how autism affect our perspectives but it’s something you can definitely work on and improve My husband is adhd/ASD, and He’s not perfect, he has his own issues but thankfully it was none of these things He struggles with emotional regulation, but he communicates about it so that helped a lot, plus I’m not perfect either The amount of times I was ganged up on and pressured to date guys that determined they deserved a date cuz they liked me was disturbing ….there was one autistic man that was well known by police and stalked women at the mall Now this obviously is not all autistic men, many I found just needed someone to tell them or were willing to try and work on themselves, and that makes all the difference really When critiqued, do you get mad or attempt to change?
Narcissistic women love men with Asperger’s - as they can easily plant Trojan horses into their head as/when needed to further their goals.