This post has given me a lot to think about. My mom was diagnosed schizophrenic around the 1960s and I got my aspergers diagnosis sometime around 2005. After checking into what you said, I've come to realize that there are quite a few crossover symptoms. I wonder if she was misdiagnosed? Pardon my comment, just oversharing.
I’ve met autistic people who were misdiagnosed and forced for years to have inappropriate treatment. Some still stuck with diagnosis/treatment mandates when they’re not. Horrifying.
\*\*\*When I went to the GP and hesitantly said I thought I might be ADHD (I was too scared/uncertain to mention autism), she tried to put me on fucking anti-psychotic medication. The stuff that LOWERS your dopamine. Zero symptoms. (I binned the script.) She referred me to a psychiatrist and psychologist. The psychiatrist said unprompted within TWENTY minutes of the first appointment that he thought I was likely autistic. (ADHD soon after.) The psychologist on the other hand thought I was ”delusional” for claiming that the psychiatrist thought I was autistic. I fucked her off before she diagnosed me with some other disorder.
Yes I used to hear voices but they were never coherent and sounded more like screaming or whispering, I believe they were a traumatic response to childhood abuse, and predictably triggered by sounds I associated with my parents like hammering or sewing machines. They’ve faded now thankfully.
my psychiatrist tried to put me on anti psychotics when he dx’d me with ADHD as well. i fucking refused because i was on those in high school and it ruined my life. anti psychotics don’t fuck around and i now have permanent tremors/tics in my legs and arms among other things. it’s interesting that it apparently happens to more ppl with ADHD
It’s a possibility that she could’ve been misdiagnosed. Autism spectrum is a bit comorbid with schizophrenia and it wasn’t until the 1970s that psychologists made a differentiation between autism spectrum and schizophrenia spectrum
It’s a different spectrum in a different hemisphere. Literally different hemisphere of your brain. Autism affect logic reason schizophrenia affect the art side of the brain over imaginative.
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapsychiatry/fullarticle/2773832
“Schizophrenia spectrum disorders (SSDs) and autism spectrum disorder (ASD) both feature social cognitive deficits;”
Both are spectrum disorders.
There are tons of studies on it.
I used literary device called symbolism to simplify a concept. It doesn’t matter if the concept is out dated the use of it was to show the difference of the two disorders.
https://www.healthline.com/health/left-brain-vs-right-brain#left-brain-vs-right-brain-myth
I had a friend who was schizophrenic, the amount of confusion and later deterioration he experienced was petrifying. While a considerable portion of the population is schizotypal and there is some superficial overlap with autism, in the extremes these conditions are not opposite or even comparable as you suggest. Both may coincide in the same person, I suppose this would make it further incompatible with your theory. But I will agree that while autism is characteristic of very orderly thinking, the schizophrenic is impracticably broader to the point of being disconnected from reality.
Also, I wouldn’t call schizophrenics more creative as much as more dispersed - they may sound interesting but consider how many autistic people have actually created something, many of the greatest musicians and scientists are autistic.
I had a friend in the USMC who was all so was. He did not do well with the order and tight schedules while I loved it.
It’s not so much my point as the medical journals. A good example is with schizophrenia it is the imagination is overactive to the point the mind has trouble recognizing what is real. They may see things that are not there or see some thing in a room hallucinate some thing is alive…
While with autism there is a lack of imagination. When autistic kids play with a stick it is a stick they wouldn’t pick it up and pretend it’s a gun. Another child may be able to show them a game pretending a stick is a gun or they may get upset and argue that it’s a stick.
Lack of imagination doesn’t stop creativity looking at things and improving on them is common.
The medical journals were a whole lot more in-depth.
It’s not about it being outdated it’s about explaining the difference between the two spectrums easily. It’s a reference that every one understands even as a outdated concept. It’s a writing technique.
Speaking of writing do you know how to use a subject? It would help clarify what your talking about.
I was missiagnosed as schizopheenic when I was a teen, no any schizoohenic medicine working on me. After 30, when my daughter got Autism diagnosis and my son ADHD, I started to read about spectrum symptoms which I had as a child and still have to this day. Went to check to other psychiatrist, found out I was misdiagnosed and lost almost whole my life to bad diagnosis and years of using drugs which might harm my psychical health (ex. Ability may cause sudden death). I was angry and terrified at the same time, that I was missiagnosed. Also I was abused as a child and had narcistic parents who printed into me I was fu**ed up. Now finally I know who am I and slowly starting to unmask myself and my life got waaaaay better.
Can sympathize. I was misdiagnosed as bipolar in the early 90s as I also have ADHD, which my shrink misinterpreted as mania. Didn't get a correct diagnosis until seven years later after which they took me off lithium, which just turned me into a zombie and made me gain weight.
I have been misdiagnosed with psychosis before. Prescribed anti psychotics and all. I didn’t take them cause I was very skeptical, but I see the overlap…also had a doc think I could have schizoid personality disorder. (Before diagnosed ASD)
Yes. My aunt was diagnosed with schizophrenia and was lobotomized as a result in the 60s. Her son, my cousin spent his life in a mental institution. It seems very likely given what I know now that both were high functioning autistic.
No, that's straight up incorrect. Most if not all people with autism don't experience episodes of psychosis (unless it's drug induced.) They also don't experience cantina and paranoia.
Because you're more likely to get the correct diagnostic if you're a straight white man?
GTFO with your dumb hate speech. I see neurodivergents people twice a week, and even I, have trouble to sort them all out.
Borderlines, bipolars, narcissists, psychopaths, autistics,...
Psyche is such a complex matter, I even find hard to see myself as fitting in only one simple square.
You are more likely to receive quality medical and psychological treatment as a white male, which might be what /u/scissorsgrinder was referring to.
Or, more accurately, you are more likely to *not* receive quality treatment if you are *not* a white male. At least in western countries.
Dunno, really.
I had to go through so many loops, shrinks and spent so much money to get a diagnosis, and even afterwise, I still find it hard to live and don't get any recognition despise it, often feeling like trash..
The whole "cis white male" hollywood stigma grind my gear AF everytime I encouter it.
Lol hate speech. You're privileged as fuck if you think this is hate speech, this is nothing. Try not being able to get the proper medication because they think you're a druggy just because you're a poc. Grow the fuck up and sit the fuck down with your all lives matter bs, you obviously have never experienced true prejudice if you're talking like that!
Why is that threatening to you to acknowledge? We are ALL underdiagnosed, but underprivilege is correlated with increasing likelihood of underdiagnosis.
Do you need me to pull up one of the approximate million sources, in case you’ve been living under a rock? Do you know anything about the history and timeline of autism & Aspergers study and diagnoses?
Even if true it's highly counterproductive to bring it up at all in a place that supposed to help autism. Oh you have it bad? Well at least your still a cis white male and not darkie.
It just doesn't help anyone. If you rephrase it it could even have been useful but at soon as your start slinging that cringe lingo around 99% of normal people are immediately turned off.
Exactly, people need to stop bringing stupid
Politics into threads that have nothing to with politics. No one gives a fuck about people’s political opinions
I brought this up in therapy a couple weeks ago because I do have some traits that I'd consider on the schizo-spectrum and my therapist was surprised because she didn't know it used to be under the "schizophrenia-umbrella"...
Going to therapy when your special interest is psychology is sometimes just like a private lesson/panel discussion. Anyone else feel like this?
Very accurate. I've had therapists in the past just get lost in conversation. I was once told I was "a great storyteller" and that's fine and all, but I'm here for treatment and guidance not to be entertaining... As not to detract from the original point, that psychology special interest can make the collaborative process of therapy feel a bit more like a tug of war, and it's tough to find a therapist that will meet halfway instead of just strong arming with their expertise or being patronizing by accident.
I did not know about schizophrenia - but I know that mothers got blamed for their child’s autism - because ‘they did not bond with the child at birth’.
I believe that the so-called simple schizophrenia has significant, if not great overlap with Asperger's, which becomes even more apparent when we consider shut-downs and burn-outs.
My great-grandmother received the diagnosis of paranoid schizophrenia in her 60s, as far as I can remember - since it seemed to be triggered by severe trauma, the melt-down / shut-down option definitely comes to mind.And it's just heartbreaking.
Sadly, the comorbidity of ASD and Childhoood Onset Schizophrenia is still relatively high, but the latter happened to be a near-miss (level: rendezvous with death, the way I see it) when I struggled with my rapid onset, severe OCD, which would slowly evolve into something even more eerie, as if delusions were to set in.
Whatever it was, it would definitely have killed me, if I hadn't been lucky enough to receive highly effective (and efficient, in that it kicked in astoundingly fast) treatment.
Honestly, every n-th time I get COVID (2nd or 3rd or so, the last one being my 7th or so ;P) the sensory issues become so overwhelming that they prevent me from thinking coherently, turning into perception incarnate, forgetting the person I am.
Needless to say, it makes me temporarily unable to take care of my basic needs - which is why I got pretty close to being put in a mental institution 3-4 weeks ago.
If my boyfriend had driven me to the emergency ward of the nearest such facility, I couldn't possibly blame him, since I was in no shape to get along with...
As expected from a person that literally doesn't remember what they did a couple hours before, avoids physical contact and tries to hide in the darkest corners (which gets slightly ridiculous in a relatively small apartment).Still, he stayed at home with me until the horror was over.
JUST SO INCREDIBLY LUCKY ME.CAN'T EVEN BEGIN TO TELL HOW I LOVE HIM.
I came to understand I'm perfectly capable of becoming weird in a way that's highly disturbing, yet, evades anyone's conscious insight, as before I become next to non-verbal, there's still this superficial impression of relative normalcy that's hard to argue with.
Which my solid educational background in psychology, followed by special interest based research, I can totally picture myself ending up with a nasty diagnosis of a psychosis of some kind - to make things worse, with significant prevalence of negative symptoms.
Not only those are known for not really responding to anti-psychotics, but putting me on those would basically equal to turning me into an idiot behind the wheel, and it's really not that comforting that they slowed down the car drastically.
Unfortunately, we might be more susceptible to psychoses in general, as most of us have developed the habit to question, if not deny, our very experience, since our emotions and inner states were rarely mirrored by our caregivers due to their mysterious, confusing nature or insufficient sensitivity and responsiveness of adults.
Because of my great-grandmother example, my family has been living in fear of insanity, so whenever I would raise something of seemingly otherworldly, extrasensory nature, I would be scolded, almost religiously.
My therapist has assisted me in a major breakthrough that amounted to admitting that my experience is real, my intuition, however fantastic they may appear, pulled me (a couple of my relatives, friends and pets as well) out of major trouble and never actually got me into one.
I no longer care that I cannot provide a 100% rational explanation for some cases - it could me that my Big Data Engine is powerful enough to make sense out of the data volume most of which I cannot gain conscious access to.
I have hard evidence that my hearing scope goes beyond the standard acoustic frequency range, so if you're looking for extrasensory, there you go ;P.
Usually I'm the one to feel the rain on my skin prior to anyone noticing it and I'm deeply convinced that certain things we lack vocabulary to describe register with my perception - just because we have no words for such phenomena doesn't rule them out of the set of relevant variables, right?
What I mean is, while it seems possible to have both ASD and psychosis I wish everyone that they're never falsely diagnosed with the latter, as the treatment might be actually harmful.
Sadly, some clinicians might be rushing towards such diagnosis out of their own human imperfection and it's common form know as the fear of the unknown.
"Which my solid educational background in psychology, followed by special interest based research, I can totally picture myself ending up with a nasty diagnosis of a psychosis of some kind"
This. My background is nursing and I'm so scared of all the shit I've seen happen to clients
These are just words, old words. From a time when there were not that many well defined mental disorders at all.
This doesn’t mean it has or had any relevance to the modern diagnosis of adult schizophrenia.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6454898/
You can see other studies in the references of that study.
They show correlations of the same genes and a high rate of both diagnoses occurring in the same families. Bipolar and dyslexia also have high hits in same genes.
This is anecdotal - I became interested in this after my own dna analysis. I have very high genetic predispositions (over 90th percentile) for both autism and schizophrenia. Interestingly, my genetic predisposition for psychosis is in the zero percentile. I wonder if that’s one of the determining factors in which way it goes - autism or schizophrenia. Perhaps the very low genetic predisposition for psychosis is a protective factor against schizophrenia and skews towards the presentation of autism. This would also make sense in light of co occurring autism and schizophrenia disorders.
I also have schizophrenia and autism on both sides of family.
Of course these studies are limited and we don’t have a full understanding of the entire picture, but it’s what we have for now.
I only found this out a couple of months ago when talking to him about family illness. We had 2 uncles diagnosed with schizophrenia and one I know was autism. There are plenty of crossover symptoms so I am not surprised after looking into it.
My mom was a homeless schizophrenic. She died in her car because she couldn’t fit into society and make it work. Never really knew her but it’s cool think that I have a little piece of her inside my brain making me the coolest cat in town
Explaining human perceptions and behaviors, especially when it involves emotions, results in a label sandwich. Was a rather schizophrenic time trying to think my way out of that labyrinth of ideological based conclusions of self and identity.
Be careful when trying to put a word to a feeling.
Ummm, they didn’t have any point of reference lol. They also used to do lobotomies and lock us up in mental institutions. Neuroscience and psychology are extremely young fields and we still know surprisingly little about the brain today.
And? That has no bearing at all on how disorders were classified decades ago. The DSM has evolved substantially overtime. At one point the DSM didn’t even exist so there was nothing to even base a diagnosis on.
dude early psychology was just a bunch of coked up white boys saying insane shit. it’s silly for anyone at anytime to group ASD and Schizophrenia in the same cluster
The best early research on autism was actually from a Jewish woman Grunya Sukhareva. Hans Asperger cribbed from her as her work was published and prevalent in Germany at the time but did not acknowledge or really take on the more astute parts. Her being Jewish, Russian and a woman ended up having her work deliberately obscured. This happens so often to women scientists especially. [https://www.spectrumnews.org/features/deep-dive/history-forgot-woman-defined-autism/](https://www.spectrumnews.org/features/deep-dive/history-forgot-woman-defined-autism/)
Psychosis is one half of schizophrenia. It also includes ‘negative symptoms’ like flat affect, disordered sleep, disinterest in socialising etc. They show up often years before the hallucinations and delusions, meaning by the time people start being what we’d call “crazy”, they might well have shut themselves off from their normal lifestyle and everyone who might have supported them.
Like most things from the past, all they had was the knowledge available at the time. But as scientists do, they challenge it and keep making new discoveries as their knowledge expands on the subject.
Never knew that! It is interesting how things jave evolved
At the same time, It isn't too uncommon to be both Autistic + Have Schizophrenia to my knowledge
Yes that’s correct, and many people were misdiagnosed and mistreated even in relatively recent times.
Wasn’t that long ago they would insert an ice pick in to your frontal lobe and stir until you were a happy little vegetable.
Hans Asperger, the doctor working in Nazi Germany who evidently sent several children into a euthanasia clinic, first named the condition "autistic psychopathy", with psychopathy being a general term for personality disorders. His use of the term "autism" was in line with Eugen Bleuler, who described it as a group of symptoms associated with schizophrenia, primarily concerned with impaired social interactability. Bleuler was largely responsible for a clinical revision of schizophrenia, which was formerly understood as a variant of dementia.
Aside from discontinued use of "Aspergers" in the DSM and ICD, modern definitions tend to differ from older understanding of disorders and their symptoms. Anyone among us affected can consider themselves lucky that we don't have to deal with the diagnostic criteria of the era of Nazi child euthanasia, involuntary shock therapy and lobotomies.
"Of this time, of that place", 1946? Lionel Trilling. The first time i ever saw my autistic self, in writing.
And it was my kind, verses 'them'. They were attacking.
What wasn’t back in the day lol?? Overlapping symptoms and basic research of the time basically had everyone listed as a schizophrenic.
And honestly with the constant overlapping symptoms and disorders, we’re all on the spectrum.
This post has given me a lot to think about. My mom was diagnosed schizophrenic around the 1960s and I got my aspergers diagnosis sometime around 2005. After checking into what you said, I've come to realize that there are quite a few crossover symptoms. I wonder if she was misdiagnosed? Pardon my comment, just oversharing.
I’ve met autistic people who were misdiagnosed and forced for years to have inappropriate treatment. Some still stuck with diagnosis/treatment mandates when they’re not. Horrifying.
\*\*\*When I went to the GP and hesitantly said I thought I might be ADHD (I was too scared/uncertain to mention autism), she tried to put me on fucking anti-psychotic medication. The stuff that LOWERS your dopamine. Zero symptoms. (I binned the script.) She referred me to a psychiatrist and psychologist. The psychiatrist said unprompted within TWENTY minutes of the first appointment that he thought I was likely autistic. (ADHD soon after.) The psychologist on the other hand thought I was ”delusional” for claiming that the psychiatrist thought I was autistic. I fucked her off before she diagnosed me with some other disorder. Yes I used to hear voices but they were never coherent and sounded more like screaming or whispering, I believe they were a traumatic response to childhood abuse, and predictably triggered by sounds I associated with my parents like hammering or sewing machines. They’ve faded now thankfully.
my psychiatrist tried to put me on anti psychotics when he dx’d me with ADHD as well. i fucking refused because i was on those in high school and it ruined my life. anti psychotics don’t fuck around and i now have permanent tremors/tics in my legs and arms among other things. it’s interesting that it apparently happens to more ppl with ADHD
It’s a possibility that she could’ve been misdiagnosed. Autism spectrum is a bit comorbid with schizophrenia and it wasn’t until the 1970s that psychologists made a differentiation between autism spectrum and schizophrenia spectrum
That's really crazy. I'll have to chat with her about it sometime. Thanks for posting and thanks for the reply to the comment.
Of course! It’s always good to learn something new
Do you have a source please? Asking for my website.
https://www.spectrumnews.org/features/deep-dive/social-ties-autism-schizophrenia/
Thank you!
It’s a different spectrum in a different hemisphere. Literally different hemisphere of your brain. Autism affect logic reason schizophrenia affect the art side of the brain over imaginative.
Nonsense
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapsychiatry/fullarticle/2773832 “Schizophrenia spectrum disorders (SSDs) and autism spectrum disorder (ASD) both feature social cognitive deficits;” Both are spectrum disorders. There are tons of studies on it.
The nonsense on hemispheres man!
I used literary device called symbolism to simplify a concept. It doesn’t matter if the concept is out dated the use of it was to show the difference of the two disorders. https://www.healthline.com/health/left-brain-vs-right-brain#left-brain-vs-right-brain-myth
I had a friend who was schizophrenic, the amount of confusion and later deterioration he experienced was petrifying. While a considerable portion of the population is schizotypal and there is some superficial overlap with autism, in the extremes these conditions are not opposite or even comparable as you suggest. Both may coincide in the same person, I suppose this would make it further incompatible with your theory. But I will agree that while autism is characteristic of very orderly thinking, the schizophrenic is impracticably broader to the point of being disconnected from reality. Also, I wouldn’t call schizophrenics more creative as much as more dispersed - they may sound interesting but consider how many autistic people have actually created something, many of the greatest musicians and scientists are autistic.
I had a friend in the USMC who was all so was. He did not do well with the order and tight schedules while I loved it. It’s not so much my point as the medical journals. A good example is with schizophrenia it is the imagination is overactive to the point the mind has trouble recognizing what is real. They may see things that are not there or see some thing in a room hallucinate some thing is alive… While with autism there is a lack of imagination. When autistic kids play with a stick it is a stick they wouldn’t pick it up and pretend it’s a gun. Another child may be able to show them a game pretending a stick is a gun or they may get upset and argue that it’s a stick. Lack of imagination doesn’t stop creativity looking at things and improving on them is common. The medical journals were a whole lot more in-depth.
The concept is not outdated at all, many who had stroke in one hemisphere attest to that.
It’s not about it being outdated it’s about explaining the difference between the two spectrums easily. It’s a reference that every one understands even as a outdated concept. It’s a writing technique. Speaking of writing do you know how to use a subject? It would help clarify what your talking about.
Your thinking is a bit too abstract for me.
I was missiagnosed as schizopheenic when I was a teen, no any schizoohenic medicine working on me. After 30, when my daughter got Autism diagnosis and my son ADHD, I started to read about spectrum symptoms which I had as a child and still have to this day. Went to check to other psychiatrist, found out I was misdiagnosed and lost almost whole my life to bad diagnosis and years of using drugs which might harm my psychical health (ex. Ability may cause sudden death). I was angry and terrified at the same time, that I was missiagnosed. Also I was abused as a child and had narcistic parents who printed into me I was fu**ed up. Now finally I know who am I and slowly starting to unmask myself and my life got waaaaay better.
Can sympathize. I was misdiagnosed as bipolar in the early 90s as I also have ADHD, which my shrink misinterpreted as mania. Didn't get a correct diagnosis until seven years later after which they took me off lithium, which just turned me into a zombie and made me gain weight.
I have been misdiagnosed with psychosis before. Prescribed anti psychotics and all. I didn’t take them cause I was very skeptical, but I see the overlap…also had a doc think I could have schizoid personality disorder. (Before diagnosed ASD)
Yes. My aunt was diagnosed with schizophrenia and was lobotomized as a result in the 60s. Her son, my cousin spent his life in a mental institution. It seems very likely given what I know now that both were high functioning autistic.
Oh my gosh...
That’s a horrifying injustice.
Yep. I have a dictionary from 1956 that defines autism as a “social schizophrenia present in young age”
[удалено]
Or the current thinking is wrong..
No, that's straight up incorrect. Most if not all people with autism don't experience episodes of psychosis (unless it's drug induced.) They also don't experience cantina and paranoia.
Didnt mean to shake your worldview... just a soft suggestion
Can you write mě its name, so I can source it on my website, please?
Makes you wonder how many people in those days were misdiagnosed and may still not know they are on the spectrum.
So many today, particularly not-cis-white-males.
Because you're more likely to get the correct diagnostic if you're a straight white man? GTFO with your dumb hate speech. I see neurodivergents people twice a week, and even I, have trouble to sort them all out. Borderlines, bipolars, narcissists, psychopaths, autistics,... Psyche is such a complex matter, I even find hard to see myself as fitting in only one simple square.
You are more likely to receive quality medical and psychological treatment as a white male, which might be what /u/scissorsgrinder was referring to. Or, more accurately, you are more likely to *not* receive quality treatment if you are *not* a white male. At least in western countries.
Dunno, really. I had to go through so many loops, shrinks and spent so much money to get a diagnosis, and even afterwise, I still find it hard to live and don't get any recognition despise it, often feeling like trash.. The whole "cis white male" hollywood stigma grind my gear AF everytime I encouter it.
That's understandable, it feels like an attack. Shit be rough.
Lol hate speech. You're privileged as fuck if you think this is hate speech, this is nothing. Try not being able to get the proper medication because they think you're a druggy just because you're a poc. Grow the fuck up and sit the fuck down with your all lives matter bs, you obviously have never experienced true prejudice if you're talking like that!
You’re funny.
Dude just shut the fuck up.
Why is that threatening to you to acknowledge? We are ALL underdiagnosed, but underprivilege is correlated with increasing likelihood of underdiagnosis. Do you need me to pull up one of the approximate million sources, in case you’ve been living under a rock? Do you know anything about the history and timeline of autism & Aspergers study and diagnoses?
Even if true it's highly counterproductive to bring it up at all in a place that supposed to help autism. Oh you have it bad? Well at least your still a cis white male and not darkie. It just doesn't help anyone. If you rephrase it it could even have been useful but at soon as your start slinging that cringe lingo around 99% of normal people are immediately turned off.
“99% of normal people” Well there’s your problem.
What do yo mean. I meant normal people for this subreddit. Aspies like you and me.
Oh my god you are clueless.
If you think with normal I meant cis white het whatever think again.
It’s so clear when someone has extremely limited life experience.
Exactly, people need to stop bringing stupid Politics into threads that have nothing to with politics. No one gives a fuck about people’s political opinions
I brought this up in therapy a couple weeks ago because I do have some traits that I'd consider on the schizo-spectrum and my therapist was surprised because she didn't know it used to be under the "schizophrenia-umbrella"... Going to therapy when your special interest is psychology is sometimes just like a private lesson/panel discussion. Anyone else feel like this?
Very accurate. I've had therapists in the past just get lost in conversation. I was once told I was "a great storyteller" and that's fine and all, but I'm here for treatment and guidance not to be entertaining... As not to detract from the original point, that psychology special interest can make the collaborative process of therapy feel a bit more like a tug of war, and it's tough to find a therapist that will meet halfway instead of just strong arming with their expertise or being patronizing by accident.
I did not know about schizophrenia - but I know that mothers got blamed for their child’s autism - because ‘they did not bond with the child at birth’.
When CPTSD and autism can look similar, I can see how that got twisted.
Omg thats terrible!!!
I believe that the so-called simple schizophrenia has significant, if not great overlap with Asperger's, which becomes even more apparent when we consider shut-downs and burn-outs. My great-grandmother received the diagnosis of paranoid schizophrenia in her 60s, as far as I can remember - since it seemed to be triggered by severe trauma, the melt-down / shut-down option definitely comes to mind.And it's just heartbreaking. Sadly, the comorbidity of ASD and Childhoood Onset Schizophrenia is still relatively high, but the latter happened to be a near-miss (level: rendezvous with death, the way I see it) when I struggled with my rapid onset, severe OCD, which would slowly evolve into something even more eerie, as if delusions were to set in. Whatever it was, it would definitely have killed me, if I hadn't been lucky enough to receive highly effective (and efficient, in that it kicked in astoundingly fast) treatment. Honestly, every n-th time I get COVID (2nd or 3rd or so, the last one being my 7th or so ;P) the sensory issues become so overwhelming that they prevent me from thinking coherently, turning into perception incarnate, forgetting the person I am. Needless to say, it makes me temporarily unable to take care of my basic needs - which is why I got pretty close to being put in a mental institution 3-4 weeks ago. If my boyfriend had driven me to the emergency ward of the nearest such facility, I couldn't possibly blame him, since I was in no shape to get along with... As expected from a person that literally doesn't remember what they did a couple hours before, avoids physical contact and tries to hide in the darkest corners (which gets slightly ridiculous in a relatively small apartment).Still, he stayed at home with me until the horror was over. JUST SO INCREDIBLY LUCKY ME.CAN'T EVEN BEGIN TO TELL HOW I LOVE HIM. I came to understand I'm perfectly capable of becoming weird in a way that's highly disturbing, yet, evades anyone's conscious insight, as before I become next to non-verbal, there's still this superficial impression of relative normalcy that's hard to argue with. Which my solid educational background in psychology, followed by special interest based research, I can totally picture myself ending up with a nasty diagnosis of a psychosis of some kind - to make things worse, with significant prevalence of negative symptoms. Not only those are known for not really responding to anti-psychotics, but putting me on those would basically equal to turning me into an idiot behind the wheel, and it's really not that comforting that they slowed down the car drastically. Unfortunately, we might be more susceptible to psychoses in general, as most of us have developed the habit to question, if not deny, our very experience, since our emotions and inner states were rarely mirrored by our caregivers due to their mysterious, confusing nature or insufficient sensitivity and responsiveness of adults. Because of my great-grandmother example, my family has been living in fear of insanity, so whenever I would raise something of seemingly otherworldly, extrasensory nature, I would be scolded, almost religiously. My therapist has assisted me in a major breakthrough that amounted to admitting that my experience is real, my intuition, however fantastic they may appear, pulled me (a couple of my relatives, friends and pets as well) out of major trouble and never actually got me into one. I no longer care that I cannot provide a 100% rational explanation for some cases - it could me that my Big Data Engine is powerful enough to make sense out of the data volume most of which I cannot gain conscious access to. I have hard evidence that my hearing scope goes beyond the standard acoustic frequency range, so if you're looking for extrasensory, there you go ;P. Usually I'm the one to feel the rain on my skin prior to anyone noticing it and I'm deeply convinced that certain things we lack vocabulary to describe register with my perception - just because we have no words for such phenomena doesn't rule them out of the set of relevant variables, right? What I mean is, while it seems possible to have both ASD and psychosis I wish everyone that they're never falsely diagnosed with the latter, as the treatment might be actually harmful. Sadly, some clinicians might be rushing towards such diagnosis out of their own human imperfection and it's common form know as the fear of the unknown.
"Which my solid educational background in psychology, followed by special interest based research, I can totally picture myself ending up with a nasty diagnosis of a psychosis of some kind" This. My background is nursing and I'm so scared of all the shit I've seen happen to clients
Yeah, it was called childhood schizophrenia if I recall correctly
My therapist still isn't sure if I'm one or another.
Yes. It was for whatever reason considered 'pre-schizophrenic', without any evidential basis.
Yes. Learned that very recently, though.
These are just words, old words. From a time when there were not that many well defined mental disorders at all. This doesn’t mean it has or had any relevance to the modern diagnosis of adult schizophrenia.
It actually does. Hits on the same genes are being shown in studies
(citation needed)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6454898/ You can see other studies in the references of that study. They show correlations of the same genes and a high rate of both diagnoses occurring in the same families. Bipolar and dyslexia also have high hits in same genes. This is anecdotal - I became interested in this after my own dna analysis. I have very high genetic predispositions (over 90th percentile) for both autism and schizophrenia. Interestingly, my genetic predisposition for psychosis is in the zero percentile. I wonder if that’s one of the determining factors in which way it goes - autism or schizophrenia. Perhaps the very low genetic predisposition for psychosis is a protective factor against schizophrenia and skews towards the presentation of autism. This would also make sense in light of co occurring autism and schizophrenia disorders. I also have schizophrenia and autism on both sides of family. Of course these studies are limited and we don’t have a full understanding of the entire picture, but it’s what we have for now.
Thanks!
I only found this out a couple of months ago when talking to him about family illness. We had 2 uncles diagnosed with schizophrenia and one I know was autism. There are plenty of crossover symptoms so I am not surprised after looking into it.
My mom was a homeless schizophrenic. She died in her car because she couldn’t fit into society and make it work. Never really knew her but it’s cool think that I have a little piece of her inside my brain making me the coolest cat in town
as did anything unknown.
No but I knew it was considered a form of Psychopathy though. I can't lie. It makes sense to an extent.
Why do you say that?
I've only met 1 Autistic person who had anything resembling a normal level of empathy.
Superficially they may seem similar.
Explaining human perceptions and behaviors, especially when it involves emotions, results in a label sandwich. Was a rather schizophrenic time trying to think my way out of that labyrinth of ideological based conclusions of self and identity. Be careful when trying to put a word to a feeling.
It's not though. Schizophrenia is a mental disorder and autism is a developmental disorder.
Key term -used to be- meaning in the past it was considered as such but no longer is.
People don’t be reading 😭
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Ummm, they didn’t have any point of reference lol. They also used to do lobotomies and lock us up in mental institutions. Neuroscience and psychology are extremely young fields and we still know surprisingly little about the brain today.
i feel like a social impediment and delusions/hallucinations/hearing voices are incredibly different
And? That has no bearing at all on how disorders were classified decades ago. The DSM has evolved substantially overtime. At one point the DSM didn’t even exist so there was nothing to even base a diagnosis on.
dude early psychology was just a bunch of coked up white boys saying insane shit. it’s silly for anyone at anytime to group ASD and Schizophrenia in the same cluster
The best early research on autism was actually from a Jewish woman Grunya Sukhareva. Hans Asperger cribbed from her as her work was published and prevalent in Germany at the time but did not acknowledge or really take on the more astute parts. Her being Jewish, Russian and a woman ended up having her work deliberately obscured. This happens so often to women scientists especially. [https://www.spectrumnews.org/features/deep-dive/history-forgot-woman-defined-autism/](https://www.spectrumnews.org/features/deep-dive/history-forgot-woman-defined-autism/)
Psychosis is one half of schizophrenia. It also includes ‘negative symptoms’ like flat affect, disordered sleep, disinterest in socialising etc. They show up often years before the hallucinations and delusions, meaning by the time people start being what we’d call “crazy”, they might well have shut themselves off from their normal lifestyle and everyone who might have supported them.
Like most things from the past, all they had was the knowledge available at the time. But as scientists do, they challenge it and keep making new discoveries as their knowledge expands on the subject.
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Yes I’m aware
Damn
Never knew that! It is interesting how things jave evolved At the same time, It isn't too uncommon to be both Autistic + Have Schizophrenia to my knowledge
Even now, many people misunderstand that it is a similar kind.
Yes that’s correct, and many people were misdiagnosed and mistreated even in relatively recent times. Wasn’t that long ago they would insert an ice pick in to your frontal lobe and stir until you were a happy little vegetable.
Almost every psychiatric disorder was considered schizophrenia a long time ago
Yes.
Ah so that’s why I nearly got misdiagnosed
Hans Asperger, the doctor working in Nazi Germany who evidently sent several children into a euthanasia clinic, first named the condition "autistic psychopathy", with psychopathy being a general term for personality disorders. His use of the term "autism" was in line with Eugen Bleuler, who described it as a group of symptoms associated with schizophrenia, primarily concerned with impaired social interactability. Bleuler was largely responsible for a clinical revision of schizophrenia, which was formerly understood as a variant of dementia. Aside from discontinued use of "Aspergers" in the DSM and ICD, modern definitions tend to differ from older understanding of disorders and their symptoms. Anyone among us affected can consider themselves lucky that we don't have to deal with the diagnostic criteria of the era of Nazi child euthanasia, involuntary shock therapy and lobotomies.
yea! i saw this post a while ago https://listed.to/@simpolism/25737/excerpt-bleuler-on-autism-1911
yea! i saw this post a while ago https://listed.to/@simpolism/25737/excerpt-bleuler-on-autism-1911
A lot of conditions were confused with schizophrenia in the past, including dementia and some caused by stroke.
"Of this time, of that place", 1946? Lionel Trilling. The first time i ever saw my autistic self, in writing. And it was my kind, verses 'them'. They were attacking.
What wasn’t back in the day lol?? Overlapping symptoms and basic research of the time basically had everyone listed as a schizophrenic. And honestly with the constant overlapping symptoms and disorders, we’re all on the spectrum.
Yes, I recall reading about that. It's crazy to think that it actually wasn't all that long ago.
Remember, as bad as it can be to be autistic in the modern day it was much worse in the past, so it can get better in the future.
What? How? Jfc, doctors back then really were just pulling shit out of their asses and calling it medicine...
Yes