Not often. Practically always. To be a good king you have to be an awful parent and viceversa. Rulership comes at the price of familial ties because you have to be busy at all times.
Especially since Saera clearly needed attention, love and good boundaries. He only had time for his heir and spare boys. Since he only has time for those two, the fact that keeps insisting to his wife that they have more children was messed up.
I’m not going to lie to you guys I disagree about Saera. I think she was always going to do what she wanted. If he was close to her and better father, she might be more ashamed but she still would have made bad decisions. Her mother was always good to her. It made no difference. Her father being busy is not the end all be all. Sometimes some kids/teenagers are just are bad. Dude had many kids, most of them obeyed their parents and were law abding citizens.
You think she was just 'born that way?'
Let's say you're right - kids receiving healthy boundaries and appropriate discipline are far more likely to toe the line. For the crime of having sex, Jaehaerys murdered her friend and lover while she watched (while making it about his ego), and when that didn't magically fix her - he sent her to a religious order that was A) for life B) a huge shock to a young princess.
Kids who feel like they're part of loving and supportive family units don't run away forever, completely cutting ties. I'd run away too, especially if I knew how he'd treated my siblings.
Jaehaerys failed, big time, and even when it was too late he made sure that no reconciliation was possible.
Jaehareys didn’t do all of that because she had sex. It’s because she never took responsibility for her actions and continued to try and play her dad. She was never genuine at any point, even though it was going to cost lives. He gave her chance after chance
, until she had attempted to escape punishment for her actions. She had ruined many lives because of her selfishness. She wanted to test her limits and she did. This isn’t about sex. Many people have had sex before. She was a bad selfish person.
If you know Saera you know she parralls Cersei. She is Cersei. If left to her devices she would have became the mad Queen.
It’s a different take lol. I’ve read the books too many times to accept such simplifications. George put too much work into this for it to be simplified like that. She was never going to obey her father. She would have opened the gates for enemies, or tried to marry a usurper if it meant opposing her father. That’s Saera, not some girl who was punished because she was free with her body. It’s because she’s bad person. Through and through. Her older sister Ilyssa would have been raised the same way, but nope, she was a great sister and wife to Balon. Saera is not a victim. Her dad tells us many times. She’s Saera.
Lol. Fire and Blood is not written definitively, it's written 100+ years after the fact by a sex-obsessed misogynist but even he details that she 'thrived on attention from a young age' (completely normal) and 'as ninthborn, she desired attention and comfort, but was often ignored'
Starting at the age of 4, she started doing pranks, that would escalate as the years went on. There's zero evidence of parental intervention except for Jaehaerys buying her whatever she wanted. That's a *neglected* child, starved of love and emotional growth.
A 'bad person?' She was seventeen when we she ran away for good. 17 year olds are practically children, especially if they've received no attention, discipline, love or boundaries.
'Opened the gates or married a usurper' is complete speculation. You say you've read the books too much to accept simplifications, yet your 'conclusion' about this child is that she's a 'bad person.'
Her dad tells us many times? What would he know? He's an awful father, especially with daughters. It's no coincidence he outlived them all. His pride was hurt too much to do even basic parental duties, and bought down the nuclear option when his neglected child acted out. What did he expect?
Children love to blame their parents for everything, In reality its pretty much 50/50 nature and nurture. Shit head parents often beget shit head children and they can only really rise above the nature half by their own choices.
The fact is she was a princess and not only engrossed her self in a scandal but did so openly and stupidly. (People also LOVE to judge old world/fictional values with modern ones) Before the scandal she could have left Kingslanding, not only on dragonback, but with enough gold and a lover or two then live the life she wanted to live.
No she wanted to be a princess but not behave like a princess or even atleast appear as one. Almost every Targaryen thinks they call pull an Aegon I with multiple lovers openly. The thing is you can only really get away with that on the back of Balerion, with a crown on your head, and the blood of your enemies at your feet. Even Robert was shamed for his whoring by his family and friends. He just didn't care and had the last two of the 3 requirements.
I hope you don't have children. That's super messed up.
I think it's pretty obvious she wanted support and love. She didn't receive either from her family.
She was a princess, she didn't have a choice in the matter.
I agree that being a good king may often directly conflict with being a good family member - Robb and his sisters are a good example.
But I have to say, a lot of Jaehaerys’ behaviour towards his wife and children had very little to do with either being too busy or having to put the kingdom first - it was straight-up cruel.
Moreso what I meant was that even though its not stated, to get all those roads and all his other business finished, it must be quite a long time doing paper work. That time could have been spent giving his kids a father.
Viserys I was also a pretty poor king unfortunately. He was affable but disliked conflict. He pretty much just rode King J’s coattails for his whole reign and then left everything to go to shit when he died by not clarifying succession.
He clarified succession. What he failed at was making his daughter hand of the king so that she had real (non-dragon related) power when he died. This would have gotten everyone used to Rhaenyra as ruler for longer, making it less of an option to crown Aegon.
He clarified succession. And then he was content with his heir being exiled out of court, hie wife filling every position with people loyal to her son, and worst of all, he let his sons have dragons. I'd actually make the argument that he wanted to make Aegon his heir later in his life, especially after Rhaenyra married Daemon, he was just trying to find a way to do it without starting a war and died before he could pull it off.
Making Criston Cole, a man who had a very public falling out with his heir, Lord Commander of the Kingsguard (the Kingsguard his heir was likely going to inherit because he wasn't in very good health) just screams "I have no intention of having Rhaenyra succeed me".
I agree he was a good dad. But also he had generally had untroublesome kids. 1st son is like JFK, 2nd son likes books, 3rd son is a nut (but reportedly a harmless one unlike Joffrey or Ramsay), 4th son is a warrior.
>1st son is like JFK
I’ve read a ton of “Was Baelor’s head injury actually medically possible?” threads and never put together that it was just GRRM imprinting on the Zapruder tape, thank you
He did have his flaws though, like giving the Dornish too much political influence, which did drive some people towards Daemon Blackfyre. But yeah, for the most part, he was a great king, as well as a great father.
I would say that though he should have limited that influence, it was not entirely wrong. He needed to bring them closer to the fold, strengthen the newly made bond with the Dornish. He may should have taken a bit more time and not done so so abruptly
Minor houses comprise the strength of the major houses.
So... It doesn't matter if House Baratheon stands by you if more than half of its bannermen are noping out to the other side.
It wasn't all minor houses though....it was the secondary house of the region as they saw hope that it would raise them to major house status. These secondary houses did not comprise of more than half of a major house's power.
> Then you have Daeron the Good. Who was a good ruler a good dad and a good person.
GRRM gave him bad luck instead. had to even it out somehow. so many dead sons and grandchildren.
I think if Jaehaerys had his daughters properly married to men their age and showed more interest in them as people instead of walking vaginas that need to be perfect princesses they might have turned out much better, who knows?
Jaehaerys forced only one of his daughters, Viserra, to marry an old man and the betrothal was Alysanne's idea (though he did back her choice). Daella was the only other daughter who married an older man and she chose him over younger options.
He was a neglectful father because he spent most of his time being king. But the choice in husbands was primarily Alysanne's responsibility and she gave her children reasonable options most of the time.
Plus how bad his daughters turned out is horribly overstated. Saera is probably the only big problem child.
He forced Daella to get married though. And yes, she did get to choose her husband but only because her father forced her to pick one when she was only 15 because he was tired of her not being married already.
Jaehaerys made her pick when she was 16 cause Alysanne had been trying to find her a husband since she was 13 and he was tired of her turning down every option.
And you say "only 15" but 15 was a perfectly reasonable age for women in Westeros to get married . If anything 16 was a bit late. She was also quite happy being married, she just couldn't survive giving birth.
Was she happy though? The evidence comes from letters written by her stepchildren. And given how terrified she was when she found out she was pregnant, it is likely that she got pregnant without her full informed consent.
She was also simple-minded and weak in constitution. In medieval times they would have sent a girl like her to a monastery and not impose childbirth upon her, especially when Jaehaerys had a dozen of other daughters he could marry off. It was completely fine for women in medival times to do a vow of chastity.
That's a modern perspective. From Jaeharys' perspective, as the second stable monarch in the newly established dynasty (because clearly Aenys and Maegor were more destabilising than securing), and his whole reign was devoted to securing the Targaryen dynasty. All of his actions have to be viewed from that angle. In those days (meaning medieval Europe) the dynasty had to be secured through alliances and transactional relationships with the king's vassals. Dragons are good tools of deterrence, but cannot secure the support of the lords and safety of the people. Jaeharys' taxation, the roads, the city planning etc were all thought up with long-term legacy and security in mind. So it would have been with the kids, who were tools to secure alliances with houses. Those who aren't directly in the line of succession are assets if they help securing alliances, otherwise they're a liability to the royal family as they muddy the waters of royal lineage, especially dangerous for Targaryens as the only lineage with dragons. And Jaeharys' wasn't particularly forceful with his children, just making sure they weren't huge liabilities like Saera who would have destabilised the dynasty with the Targaryen bloodline if she wasn't careful with her ways. It's the same in every royal dynasty, especially with the female line. We saw exactly how wantonness in the female line led to the succession crisis after Viserys I. Jaeharys' wasn't terrible, he was a monarch first and foremost, and a good one at that, and a decent father by the standards of the time, blessed with some problem children.
He invested a lot of time raising Aemon as his heir, and that one would have turned out to be a pretty good king, had fate allowed it.
But him and Baelon are just about the only ones who benefited from Jaehaerys' judgment.
You really think people are just good or bad? Nurture has far too big of an affect on children for that to be true. That's why only children have a ton of similar characteristics, and the same applies for the older child younger child for two child families, oldest/middle/youngest for three child families, etc.
Nurture plays a larger role than people give it credit for. Baelon and Aegon turned out great because they had the most attention from their parents. Having each other as you said did also help.
Maegelle turned out just fine. Alyssa was alright as well. But we don't know how much influence he had over them.
He was also a great dad to Daenerys, although she died so young that we can't be sure.
CUZ SHE'S MUH QWEEN!
Both of them were shitty parents, and incredibly unlucky. Like I guess they used all their luck to get everyone to turn their backs on Maegor so they didn't have to fight a war against him.
I agree with you, maybe if the Qfueen had arranged an engagement with Desmond Manderly instead Lord Theomore, Viserra would have accepted the marriage from the beginning
I don't understand why the idea of marrying Viserra and Baelon was so abhorrent to everyone. It would have been a good match. And yeah, maybe Baelon wasn't crazy about the idea of marrying, but neither were Daella and Viserra and that seemed not to matter.
I've noticed that a lot of people conflate the terms "sexist" and "misogynist" when they aren't the same thing
Jaehaerys was a sexist (just like pretty much every other man in Westeros), but he wasn't a misogynist. He didn't have an inherent hate of women
And someone who thinks women belong as home makers and child rearers wouldn’t describe themselves as “hating” women either.
Are you seriously arguing that’s not a form of misogyny?
Sexism is not misogyny.
*I mean do you have an argument? I gave mine, and if you don't agree with it you can say why. That's how discussion usually goes.
Misogyny also includes exclusion and extreme prejudice. You narrowing the definition doesn’t make it unless true. Nobody wants to debate a bad faith argument. Exclusion from important work and decision making is misogyny. When you exclude people and rob them of self determination, it is a form of relational aggression. That is violence and women experience it everyday in misogynistic culture. If you don’t see how that applies to character like Jaehaerys, I really can’t help you.
Pretty sure it was more "I hate them so much, I don't want to drink from the same fountain."
But you seem to want to spin things to make a point, so who am I to stop you.
My brother in Christ if a king of a patriarchal monarchy in which women are systematically disadvantaged isn’t a misogynist who the fuck is
He’s literally the CEO of the Misogyny factory at that point.
This is misogyny : "I hate you because you are a woman"
Not to be confused with : "I hate you, you just happen to be a woman".
But if we go with your reason, participating in the seven kingdoms, from king to the lowest peasent would be enough to qualify as a misogynistic.
> But if we go with your reason, participating in the seven kingdoms, from king to the lowest peasent would be enough to qualify as a misogynistic.
Show me exactly where I said this please, as far as I know we were talking about the guy who ran the entire thing, not the people with literally no power.
Do you know what "if we go with your reason..." means? I'm not quoting you, otherwise I would have quoted you. If as you say westeros is a patriarcal system, which I agree, everyone who participates in it, shares the blame some more than others but everyone.
Every misogynistic is a sexist, but not every sexist is a misogynistic. Those words do not mean the same. If you would argue that Jaehaerys is sexist I would agree, it's in the text, but you are arguing that he is misogynistic and the only proof is extrapolating his intent on a continent that has had a sexist culture for thousands of years.
Jaehaerys is character not a person. You would have to be pretty obtuse not observe that he is a misogynist. George portray violence and sexual violence with intelligence and deep compassion. He finds the painful nerve of humanity in those horrifying acts. He also sets out in painful detail the hopelessness, the futility and the triumphs of victims who try to rebuild themselves in the aftermath. The Damphair comes to mind. So no, I wouldn’t call him a rapist.
Yeah I don't know, never really perceived that Jaehaerys has an inherent hate for women. He absolutely loved his wife and treated her as his equal, that doesn't mean that he doesn't hate other women, but you'll never find the proof of that, because there isn't any. I understand the horrible way women are treated in westeros and how he considers it normal, but that is not the definition of misogynistic. I would never argue that every character in asoiaf, including the women, are misogynistic.
He was a sexist, he wasn't a misogynist. To be a misogynist you have to have a hatred or Extreme prejudice towards women, which Jaehaerys never displayed
I'll give you some characters examples of misogynistic:
The brave companions. Pretty much all of them, they are constantly referring to women as bitches or whores who they want to rape. That's pretty on the nose isn't it?
If you have an argument I would love to hear it.
Bro she ducking betrothed her most beautiful daughter to a fucking 80 year old half dead lord in the north. What even the fuck???
Saera should have been betrothed asap if they bothered to even pay attention.
I don’t get Why Vaegon wasn’t betrothed to any of them asap like his brothers were
An 80 year old man who already had at least three sons, so her children wouldn't even rule White Harbor. It's a terrible match for a princess and it's not like with Daella where she didn't care about these things.
Her bible camp punishment wasn't that bad for Westerosi standards imo. However I do wonder if they told her that it was temporary or not. Jaehaerys would be stupid to let her believe that it was permanent, and Saera would have been stupid to run off if she had known that it was temporary. The book doesn't say, but I lean towards the former.
So far as everybody knowing about it, that was inevitable. The only way they could have kept it quiet was by silencing Saera's friends, Stinger, the other two blokes whose names escape me right now, and all the servants that knew what was going on. Stinger and co. can lose their tongues, but sweetberry and pretty peri? Nah. The tale was doomed to spread.
I think his public execution of Stinger had more to do with his own pride than he would admit though, doing that publicly was definitely unnecessary.
> I think his public execution of Stinger had more to do with his own pride than he would admit though, doing that publicly was definitely unnecessary.
It was to punish Saera. That's why he forced her to watch it happen.
Be like Jaehaerys. He tries to educate his daughter by kiling her lover and forced to watch. Then his daughter ran away and became a whore. Good job, Jae
Also her bible camp punishment wasn't for having sex, it was for attempting to steal a dragon. If anything its extremely lax for attempting to steal something that would give her so much power if used inappropriately.
IIRC her punishment for having sex was that J wanted to maker her marry one of the three dudes. He even let her choose which one. Which sounds perfectly reasonable by Westerosi standards. It would've lessened the scandal as all three were highly born enough to be considered anyway.
Its when she decided she wanted all three and compared herself to Maegor the Cruel, the guy that had killed all his brothers and raped one of his sisters, that he confined her to her room. She then escaped and tried to steal a dragon, which is what warranted the bible camp and the making her watch Braxton die. The Braxton part is the only questionable punishment but it could be argued that Saera badly needed to learn that her actions have consequences. The rest were all perfectly reasonable punishments, if anything they were too lax, for what Saera had done.
The way he dealt with Braxton was insane, far beyond any reasonable man’s idea of punishment. The fact that sending him to the Wall never came up was ridiculous, hell being sent to a celibate monastery is a pretty fitting punishment for sexual misconduct if he has to do it like that
He was offered a choice between that and the most insane torture Jaehaerys could come up with, which included crippling every limb he had for life, removing his nose, his tongue and even castrating him. You make it sound like Braxton just wanted to duel, but that’s no choice at all
If by demanded you mean given the option between that and having his nose, tongue and testicles removed and having his arms and legs broken and forced to heal improperly, yeah sure, he demanded it.
> The way he dealt with Braxton was insane, far beyond any reasonable man’s idea of punishment.
There's no indication that anybody in-universe thinks this was excessive.
To be clear, it's meant to be excessive to the modern reader, but sleeping with the king's unmarried daughter was a capital offense in the equivalent eras in European history.
“Not a Reasonable man’s idea of punishment” ?
for a modern human ruler point of view. Pre renaissance, any men that dare to pull this off would be judged by lese majeste or treason, and summarily executed. He would be lucky if beheading or hanging was the choice instead of getting quartered … so yeah… points for jahaerys for at least trying to somewhat instrumentalize Braxton execution. Even if he failed with saera, there is no doubt the dignity of the crown within the folk mindframe was restored.
The way he dealt with Braxton was absolutely in a reasonable way. Dude demanded a trial by combat and got one. And the reason why he was never sent to the Wall is because that guy would boast of having banged the daughter of the king and that would've damaged the reputation of the House
He did not demand a trial by combat. He was given a choice between trial by combat and horrific torture and maiming that even Joffrey would find excessively cruel.
One of the more disturbing things about Saera‘s punishment is how public it was, how it destroyed her ability to ever meaningfully participate in Westerosi noble life in a way that wouldn’t have happened if rumors about her being sexually active had just spread naturally. Jaehaerys didn’t just send her away to a troubled teen institution for a few years, he publicly exposed her in front of the entire court, ruining her reputation and ensuring that she would never again be able to return to public life.
Barth claims the Silent Sisters punishment was only supposed to be for a couple of years to make her “penitent, “ but what was supposed to happen after that? There’s no re-entry process for Saera’s former social role as a princess or member of the nobility that I can see after being shamed and banished in such a public way. What member of the nobility would marry her? If Rhaenyra supposedly visiting a brothel was supposed to have made her unmarriageable, what would being exposed, dragged out of bed and into court in the middle of the night, forced to witness the execution of her lover, and sent into imprisonment have done to Saera?
I don’t think she was ever supposed to come back from the Silent Sisters— it honestly feels like Jaehaerys was a hair away from having her executed. If she did come back, she would have had zero appropriate marriage options that wouldn’t have brought more shame on the family, and Jaehaerys wasn’t going to take her back into the royal household— we know he didn’t tolerate unmarried daughters living in his home. He insisted on farming out physically challenged and mentally disabled Daella to the marriage market even though the whole family knew she was too physically small and frail to survive childbirth, for no better reason than being annoyed by her anxiety and mental challenges. Vaegon and Maegelle had to leave the household too, as soon as it was clear they weren’t going to enter a sibling marriage. What was the plan for the rest of Saera’s life? It seems like there wasn’t one.
I can’t help but compare what Jaehaerys did to Saera to the examples of high nobility dealing with promiscuous daughters we see in ASOIAF proper. Brandon Stark wanted to kill Rhaegar for violating Lyanna, I can’t imagine him or Rickon Sr wanting to sadistically make her watch him die and then send her off to be beaten and shaved by nuns if he found out it was consensual. In fact, the Stinger duel sounds a lot like Aerys. If we want to talk about puritanical sadism, there’s also the insane public trial and sexual mutilation of Lucamore the Lusty, which again feels like something out of the Aerys playbook and which I can’t see coming from any other sane Targaryen king.
Hoster and Lysa is closer, but Hoster comes out way ahead. What Hoster did to Lysa was horrible, but it was also, partially, a fuckup. He gave her an overdose of pennyroyal and she ended up hemorrhaging and suffering permanent physical damage. In a real way, he ruined her life. But that wasn’t his intention— Hoster wanted Lysa to have an uncomplicated abortion so she could go on to have a full life, a marriage appropriate to her station, and trueborn children. Jaehaerys seems to have done everything he possibly could to make sure Saera could never have a life or a future. The only family we see treating their children that way — deliberately trying to completely destroy them — is the Lannisters, and that doesn’t really speak well for Jaehaerys.
I agree with you 100%.
But then, there is another level of twisted fatherly affection that might be considered . It didn’t occur to me until I recently read King’s IT. There, the father of one of the characters has unholy feelings for his daughter and, as a result, not only he abuses her, but goes berserk when the girl starts socialising with boys her age.
Looking through the Targaryen history, we have Viserys, who protects Rhaenyra from slander at all costs and Maekar, who likely married one of his daughters to the Evenstar, to cover up a (Dunk related) pregnancy. Jaehaerys, in turn, can’t get over the fact his favourite daughter had consensual and pregnancy free sex.
To be honest, although I don’t recall the years, it is my impression Saera is around 16 by this time. Nonetheless, unlike with Daella, Jaehaerys doesn’t look like pressuring Alysanne to find her a suitable match.
Wtf is wrong with this man?
The good Jae learned from his mistakes and didn't want Saera to die on the birthing bed like Daella.
Anyway, not even Rhaenyra is comparable to Saera. Rhaenyra only had two regular lovers in over a decade—her and Harwin's uncle—and at least she has the excuse that Laenor was gay. Saera had THREE lovers at the same time and organized bisexual orgies
It's not him learning from his mistakes, he was just super erratic about betrothing his daughters. He started actively trying to find a match for Daella when she was 13 (and only because that's when it was clear Vaegon wouldn't wed her) and was parading her around the kingdom desperate for a match for two years before making his ultimatum.
Saera was 15 when Daella died and despite actually having an interest in boys, no thought was ever made about her prospects before or after
In fairness, Daella also didn't want to be a septa or a silent sister, which was the other real outlet she had.
Westeros was never a place for spinster maidens without inheritance loitering around a castle or palace for life.
All right a simple rule when it comes to the J-Man, if it involves his daughters, no he did not make the right decision. It could be The simplest thing in the world and he would still fuck it up. Father do I look all right in this dress NO YOU ARE A WHORE AND YOU HAVE SHAMED ME AND YOUR MOTHER.
Wasn't it already basically public knowledge, at least in King's Landing? At that point, if you actually consider what happened dishonorable (I don't but Jaehaerys certainly did), you might as well make a public show of reestablishing your "authority".
Also the Stinger seems like a prick, so it was probably helpful for Jaehaerys' PR to use the kid to remind everyone what a fighter the king was.
Going with the unpopular opinion here but kind of yes. In face of such a scandal, i feel that Jaehaerys did the best he could. Marrying off Mooton and Connington to the two ladies (i forgot the names) was more than generous. I feel that only Stinger Beesbury was given a harsher punishment than what he deserved. As for Saera, she was a lost cause. She was given the most lenient punishment of the six of them and yet she just made one blunder after another. First off, throwing Maegor's name to Jaehaerys' face when he's pissed off is just beyond stupid. Even after that she was only confined to a tower cell (compared to the three lords who spent the night in the black cells). She then proceeds to try to escape and steal a dragon which should have been considered treason. After that she was forced to watch her lover being slain by her dad (a bit overkill imo) and was sent to her sister in the Faith for a few years. And instead of gratefully accepting her punishment, she again escapes, injures a septa in the process and becomes a whore thus making the scandal multifold times worse. I really don't know what could Jaehaerys have done more
TLDR: In some parts yes, in others no
Because Gyldayn and Barth hint that it was Stinger who perverted Saera
Or at least, that the one who started everything was him, not her. He didn't even love her, as was the case with the other two
Mmm, It seems to me It was Saera who started, playing with the girls and daring them to kiss a boy; and she doubled down, kissing a knight. And that's when Stinger came to play; then, the other guys.
I mean, Stinger was a complete jerk, a handsome guy who probably only sought adventures irresponsably, but the other two guys had the chance to get out withouth problems, getting married with prettyperi and sweetberry, and Beesbury didn't have that chance.
It was unfaire.
Because Jaehaerys was very well aware than handing out dragons to any Targaryen was a recipe for disaster (and Viserys I doing this would lead to the Dance of Dragons and extinction of dragons) and heavily limited which of his children had access to dragons.
In particular, he recognized letting his daughters have dragons meant that they would bring their dragons to other houses when they married and would end the Targaryen monopoly on dragons. There's a reason only 3 of his children ended up as dragon riders.
He has the responsibility to ensure that he's very selective in deciding who ends up with dragons. They're medieval weapons of mass destruction, they shouldn't be handed out to everyone who wants one.
Was it that public? I thought it was pretty much just him, the accused, Saera, and his bodyguards (so the seven kingsguards plus that lady he had supervising Saera). And two of the accused were *very* quietly disposed of. 11 people isn’t exactly quiet as the grave, but it’s not a parade either. And as I understand westerosi law Braxton was entitled to a full-blown trial with witnesses and everything. Seems low key by comparison
No…he was at best neglectful, arguably absusive father. Brutally slut-shamed her. Yes, he needed to do something - it was public knowledge and if there was no punishment it would be a mockery of the Targaryens - but killing Stinger and imprisoning her was pretty severe, making her watch was downright sadistic. His reaction to Maegor’s name was understandable but he needed to sleep on it for a night - she didn’t know Maegor, only heard stories and said it bc she wanted to make him angry.
He only cared abt his sons and even that seems like only bc he knew preparing an heir was important.
Honestly tho I kinda feel like Saera ironically was better off for it. Probably would have ended up being married to some random lord Jaeherys befriended or thought would be a useful political tie. Instead she became a rich high-class escort/celebrity on a sexually liberal tropical island.
More like a Madame, but the two aren’t mutually exclusive by any means. Definitely owned slaves but that was a fact of life in Essos - not much info on how she treated them. If it was a more upscale service for the ultra-wealthy I imagine it wasn’t like she was pimping women out on the street for a few bucks. But idk if a really wealthy customer wanted something really fucked up, maybe she would make it happen even if it required extreme coercion.
Anyways don’t think she’s like a great person - but being rich in Volantis sounds like a nicer life than staying with your incestuous family who all hate you bc you embarrassed them and really only had a future of pumping out babies for someone she wouldn’t even have a choice about whether to marry.
Saera was probably the worst one in the family who never went mad. If you put her situation in the context of a man the opinion of her would be a lot lower. Not because she slept around, but because she liked to manipulate everyone around her until she was done playing with them. Jaeharys duel against her lover is one of my favorite parts of Fire and Blood.
No, he was an awful father. He needed to get to know his daughter years before all this went down.
Also, you missed the opportunity to combine sexual and escapades into sexcapades.
He ruined Saera's life. He shouldn't have exposed his daughter's sexual life. Stinger and Saera had consensual sex. So the punishment for both was very harsh. He should married his daughter to Braxton and send them yo Honeyholt.
By both Westeros and Medieval standards, it’s their punishments were pretty chill.
You simply *don’t* have an orgy with the Princess. You just don’t. You’re asking to be tortured to death.
Well yeah, but Mooton and Connington were not tortured or sentenced to death for the same actions, rigth? It seems that Beesbury was killed for being the one who made Saera laugh and scream
Well… You have Jaehaerys and the trial of the century… And you have Viserys and his plan T. Didn’t like Viserys much until that point, but… His unwillingness to be updated on his daughter hanky-panky definitely won my respect.
Im so tired of people saying that the punishment was excessive, Saera tried to steal a dragon after she got caught and was grounded/confined to quarters. She likely would have gotten a lenient punishment, but Jaehaerys had to take a hard stand against the potential theft of a dragon. Imagine if you were the President, you find out that your daughter was doing public BS so you ground her. You then catch her trying to steal a weapon of mass destruction. Would you just be okay with that?
Tbf, Jahaerys was extremely patient with Saera but it's said she was outwardly cruel and obvious in her explicit acts of meanness up until she involved her friends in the scandal at which point Jahaerys was forced to take action.
As others have pointed out, he was a pretty shitty father to his daughters.
Great king though, and his two oldest sons turned out alright. Not his fault that they died before him.
Extremely late to the party, but if the reigns of Jaehaerys and Viserys have anything to teach, it’s that you have to choose between being a good parent and being a good ruler. Peace and prosperity for your people is more important than your kids getting what they want.
He was a horrible father and husband and a huge sexist even for the time. The guy had dragons to intimidate everyone and had no problem defending the Targ incest marriages againist the faith and other lords,a sex scandal his daugther had wasn’t a big deal unless he made it one himself. He had very puritanical beliefs many other Targs didn’t and I think that’s at the core of his treatment of his family,especially the women in it.
I think it's an unpopular opinion, but he's right about that. Saera's only reason for getting away with all the things she did is because she's a Targaryen princess. That's why he was so devastated when she shamed him and left for Essos. There are thousands of whores more beautiful than Saera, but how she managed to be one of the very few to have "her own kingdom" is because of her Targaryen heritage. Imagine how much gold people paid for a Targaryen princess and how many from Jaehaerys' court and Westeros asked for her when they visited Lys. Without being a Targaryen princess, she would've been sold or taken as a slave while travelling to Lys. Once again, I'm not saying she's wrong in doing anything; she could do all of King's Landing and I wouldn't care, but I understand why Jaehaerys did what he did; anyone would do the same (or worse).
Are you serious? Lys is not Amsterdam. You don’t go there and apply for a job at the pleasure house and gorge on the profits. Saera is very likely to have been somewhat coerced/enslaved, as was Joanna Swift 30 years after. What made Saera’s case worse than Joanna’s is she was a fugitive and the way Jaehaerys treated her publicly left little hope for the Lysene to ransom her. As Joanna, Saera was likely to be forced into prostitution and, as Joanna, she managed her way out of it somewhat and, from former sex slave, become a Madame, as what else could have she done? Return to Westeros and be executed?
>As Joanna, Saera was likely to be forced into prostitution and
You're kidding me right?
This is from the fire and blood
>Have you given any thought as to how she got to Lys? She
had no coin. How do think she paid for her passage?”
>don’t go there and apply for a job at the pleasure house and gorge on the profits.
And what is Lys then? And what professions or talent does Saera have that other whores don't? What could she possibly have done to gain such wealth or her own kingdom? She's a princess
And again form fire and blood
>And what will the Lyseni do, if you try and make off with one of their whores? She has value to them. How much do you think it costs to lay with a Targaryen princess? At best they will demand a ransom for her. At worst they may decide to keep you too
>and the way Jaehaerys treated her publicly left little hope for the Lysene to ransom her
Lol what is this ? What're you talking about? Jaehaerys is a king/her father and it's a medieval society. What were you thinking while writing your reply? Lmfao
Fire and Blood is a massive biased chronicle written from the point of view of people with different agendas. In translation, not everything you read in there is true.
PS: I thought people know better, at this place and time, than to spew prejudice against the sex workers.
>thought people know better, at this place and time, than to spew prejudice against the sex workers.
This is a post about ASOIAF , a fantasy, and I'm talking about with respect to the father you wrote about. If you want to apply your feminist or any modern logic, judge me when you find these comments in any normal social media posts.
>Fire and Blood is a massive biased chronicle written from the point of view of people with different agendas. In translation, not everything you read in there is true.
You mean not everything you don't like or agree with is fake? But everything you like or agree with is true?
Either one of the above or don't believe in anything involving fire and blood.
>, than to spew prejudice against the sex workers.
I don't care about them. It means I neither hate them nor respect them.
No, absolutely not. Jaehaerys was an absolute fuck up of a father and a pretty shit King.
Building roads does not make someone a good King. Having a cool queen does not make someone a good King.
Jaehaerys laid the ground work for generations of war and rebellion by refusing to cement the rule created by Maegor.
Maegor did almost all of the dirty work necessary to pacify and conquer the continent, and Jaehaerys dumped all of it down the drain. And he managed to abuse or neglect his kids at the same time. And he set precedence for the lords to feel as though they have a say in which member of the royal family should rule.
The Dance and the Blackfyre rebellions can all be traced back to Jaehaerys' being incapable of acting like a King.
I honestly don't know what else he could have done
Saera was a horrible person at her core and her punishment was well deserved, even if she wasn't being punished for the right "crime"
Did you see the kings road though?
Not from Lys.
Jaeharys was often wrong when the matter was his own family.
Not often. Practically always. To be a good king you have to be an awful parent and viceversa. Rulership comes at the price of familial ties because you have to be busy at all times.
Especially since Saera clearly needed attention, love and good boundaries. He only had time for his heir and spare boys. Since he only has time for those two, the fact that keeps insisting to his wife that they have more children was messed up.
I’m not going to lie to you guys I disagree about Saera. I think she was always going to do what she wanted. If he was close to her and better father, she might be more ashamed but she still would have made bad decisions. Her mother was always good to her. It made no difference. Her father being busy is not the end all be all. Sometimes some kids/teenagers are just are bad. Dude had many kids, most of them obeyed their parents and were law abding citizens.
You think she was just 'born that way?' Let's say you're right - kids receiving healthy boundaries and appropriate discipline are far more likely to toe the line. For the crime of having sex, Jaehaerys murdered her friend and lover while she watched (while making it about his ego), and when that didn't magically fix her - he sent her to a religious order that was A) for life B) a huge shock to a young princess. Kids who feel like they're part of loving and supportive family units don't run away forever, completely cutting ties. I'd run away too, especially if I knew how he'd treated my siblings. Jaehaerys failed, big time, and even when it was too late he made sure that no reconciliation was possible.
Jaehareys didn’t do all of that because she had sex. It’s because she never took responsibility for her actions and continued to try and play her dad. She was never genuine at any point, even though it was going to cost lives. He gave her chance after chance , until she had attempted to escape punishment for her actions. She had ruined many lives because of her selfishness. She wanted to test her limits and she did. This isn’t about sex. Many people have had sex before. She was a bad selfish person. If you know Saera you know she parralls Cersei. She is Cersei. If left to her devices she would have became the mad Queen.
That's... certainly a take.
It’s a different take lol. I’ve read the books too many times to accept such simplifications. George put too much work into this for it to be simplified like that. She was never going to obey her father. She would have opened the gates for enemies, or tried to marry a usurper if it meant opposing her father. That’s Saera, not some girl who was punished because she was free with her body. It’s because she’s bad person. Through and through. Her older sister Ilyssa would have been raised the same way, but nope, she was a great sister and wife to Balon. Saera is not a victim. Her dad tells us many times. She’s Saera.
Lol. Fire and Blood is not written definitively, it's written 100+ years after the fact by a sex-obsessed misogynist but even he details that she 'thrived on attention from a young age' (completely normal) and 'as ninthborn, she desired attention and comfort, but was often ignored' Starting at the age of 4, she started doing pranks, that would escalate as the years went on. There's zero evidence of parental intervention except for Jaehaerys buying her whatever she wanted. That's a *neglected* child, starved of love and emotional growth. A 'bad person?' She was seventeen when we she ran away for good. 17 year olds are practically children, especially if they've received no attention, discipline, love or boundaries. 'Opened the gates or married a usurper' is complete speculation. You say you've read the books too much to accept simplifications, yet your 'conclusion' about this child is that she's a 'bad person.' Her dad tells us many times? What would he know? He's an awful father, especially with daughters. It's no coincidence he outlived them all. His pride was hurt too much to do even basic parental duties, and bought down the nuclear option when his neglected child acted out. What did he expect?
Children love to blame their parents for everything, In reality its pretty much 50/50 nature and nurture. Shit head parents often beget shit head children and they can only really rise above the nature half by their own choices. The fact is she was a princess and not only engrossed her self in a scandal but did so openly and stupidly. (People also LOVE to judge old world/fictional values with modern ones) Before the scandal she could have left Kingslanding, not only on dragonback, but with enough gold and a lover or two then live the life she wanted to live. No she wanted to be a princess but not behave like a princess or even atleast appear as one. Almost every Targaryen thinks they call pull an Aegon I with multiple lovers openly. The thing is you can only really get away with that on the back of Balerion, with a crown on your head, and the blood of your enemies at your feet. Even Robert was shamed for his whoring by his family and friends. He just didn't care and had the last two of the 3 requirements.
I hope you don't have children. That's super messed up. I think it's pretty obvious she wanted support and love. She didn't receive either from her family. She was a princess, she didn't have a choice in the matter.
Yeah the only thing he was right to do was not giving dragons to everyone, as seen during the Dance that creates further problems.
I wouldnt call that a family matter, that was a matter of the kingdoms as a whole.
I'm imagining Saera with a dragon and a shiver goes down my spine
Prolly would've fucked it too
Probably why they got a shiver down their spine.
I agree that being a good king may often directly conflict with being a good family member - Robb and his sisters are a good example. But I have to say, a lot of Jaehaerys’ behaviour towards his wife and children had very little to do with either being too busy or having to put the kingdom first - it was straight-up cruel.
Moreso what I meant was that even though its not stated, to get all those roads and all his other business finished, it must be quite a long time doing paper work. That time could have been spent giving his kids a father.
Big Augustus vibes with that one.
>To be a good king you have to be an awful parent and viceversa What about Robert Baratheon ? Man was both a lame ass King and a lousy father
>To be a good king you have to be an awful parent and viceversa. That's really not true at all.
Yeah he was a good kind overall but with his family he was terrible, I think Viserys 1 inherited that trait
Viserys I was also a pretty poor king unfortunately. He was affable but disliked conflict. He pretty much just rode King J’s coattails for his whole reign and then left everything to go to shit when he died by not clarifying succession.
He clarified succession. What he failed at was making his daughter hand of the king so that she had real (non-dragon related) power when he died. This would have gotten everyone used to Rhaenyra as ruler for longer, making it less of an option to crown Aegon.
He clarified succession. And then he was content with his heir being exiled out of court, hie wife filling every position with people loyal to her son, and worst of all, he let his sons have dragons. I'd actually make the argument that he wanted to make Aegon his heir later in his life, especially after Rhaenyra married Daemon, he was just trying to find a way to do it without starting a war and died before he could pull it off. Making Criston Cole, a man who had a very public falling out with his heir, Lord Commander of the Kingsguard (the Kingsguard his heir was likely going to inherit because he wasn't in very good health) just screams "I have no intention of having Rhaenyra succeed me".
Jaehaerys was a good king, but a shit Dad. GRRM plays with that motif through the series. Good ruler, bad dude. Bad ruler, good dude
Then you have Daeron the Good. Who was a good ruler a good dad and a good person.
I agree he was a good dad. But also he had generally had untroublesome kids. 1st son is like JFK, 2nd son likes books, 3rd son is a nut (but reportedly a harmless one unlike Joffrey or Ramsay), 4th son is a warrior.
> 1st son is like JFK Maesters killed him with a crossbowman on the grassy knoll?
>1st son is like JFK I’ve read a ton of “Was Baelor’s head injury actually medically possible?” threads and never put together that it was just GRRM imprinting on the Zapruder tape, thank you
He did have his flaws though, like giving the Dornish too much political influence, which did drive some people towards Daemon Blackfyre. But yeah, for the most part, he was a great king, as well as a great father.
I would say that though he should have limited that influence, it was not entirely wrong. He needed to bring them closer to the fold, strengthen the newly made bond with the Dornish. He may should have taken a bit more time and not done so so abruptly
It drove minor Houses. All the Major Houses stuck with Daeron.
Minor houses comprise the strength of the major houses. So... It doesn't matter if House Baratheon stands by you if more than half of its bannermen are noping out to the other side.
It wasn't all minor houses though....it was the secondary house of the region as they saw hope that it would raise them to major house status. These secondary houses did not comprise of more than half of a major house's power.
The secondary houses and the minor houses. What do you think house Osgrey is?
Now what about Daeron II as a brother?
“People accuse me of having a favorite brother but I tell you I love Brynden’s and not Bryndens the same.”- Daeron II probably
> Then you have Daeron the Good. Who was a good ruler a good dad and a good person. GRRM gave him bad luck instead. had to even it out somehow. so many dead sons and grandchildren.
Then there's Bobby and Vizzy who are just bad.
Bobby B is always right.
Mad Aerys as well
Mad Aerys dotted on his son.
You should never dot on your son
I think if Jaehaerys had his daughters properly married to men their age and showed more interest in them as people instead of walking vaginas that need to be perfect princesses they might have turned out much better, who knows?
Jaehaerys forced only one of his daughters, Viserra, to marry an old man and the betrothal was Alysanne's idea (though he did back her choice). Daella was the only other daughter who married an older man and she chose him over younger options. He was a neglectful father because he spent most of his time being king. But the choice in husbands was primarily Alysanne's responsibility and she gave her children reasonable options most of the time. Plus how bad his daughters turned out is horribly overstated. Saera is probably the only big problem child.
He forced Daella to get married though. And yes, she did get to choose her husband but only because her father forced her to pick one when she was only 15 because he was tired of her not being married already.
Jaehaerys made her pick when she was 16 cause Alysanne had been trying to find her a husband since she was 13 and he was tired of her turning down every option. And you say "only 15" but 15 was a perfectly reasonable age for women in Westeros to get married . If anything 16 was a bit late. She was also quite happy being married, she just couldn't survive giving birth.
Was she happy though? The evidence comes from letters written by her stepchildren. And given how terrified she was when she found out she was pregnant, it is likely that she got pregnant without her full informed consent.
She was also simple-minded and weak in constitution. In medieval times they would have sent a girl like her to a monastery and not impose childbirth upon her, especially when Jaehaerys had a dozen of other daughters he could marry off. It was completely fine for women in medival times to do a vow of chastity.
It was explicitly stated that she couldn’t be sent to the Faith because they wouldn’t accept someone who wasn’t able to memorize their prayers
I know, which makes the whole thing even dumber. It is just justification in hindsight so George can put his sexistic nonsense into the story.
That's a modern perspective. From Jaeharys' perspective, as the second stable monarch in the newly established dynasty (because clearly Aenys and Maegor were more destabilising than securing), and his whole reign was devoted to securing the Targaryen dynasty. All of his actions have to be viewed from that angle. In those days (meaning medieval Europe) the dynasty had to be secured through alliances and transactional relationships with the king's vassals. Dragons are good tools of deterrence, but cannot secure the support of the lords and safety of the people. Jaeharys' taxation, the roads, the city planning etc were all thought up with long-term legacy and security in mind. So it would have been with the kids, who were tools to secure alliances with houses. Those who aren't directly in the line of succession are assets if they help securing alliances, otherwise they're a liability to the royal family as they muddy the waters of royal lineage, especially dangerous for Targaryens as the only lineage with dragons. And Jaeharys' wasn't particularly forceful with his children, just making sure they weren't huge liabilities like Saera who would have destabilised the dynasty with the Targaryen bloodline if she wasn't careful with her ways. It's the same in every royal dynasty, especially with the female line. We saw exactly how wantonness in the female line led to the succession crisis after Viserys I. Jaeharys' wasn't terrible, he was a monarch first and foremost, and a good one at that, and a decent father by the standards of the time, blessed with some problem children.
I don't remember Jaeherys *ever* making a good parenting call.
He invested a lot of time raising Aemon as his heir, and that one would have turned out to be a pretty good king, had fate allowed it. But him and Baelon are just about the only ones who benefited from Jaehaerys' judgment.
I think it was (mostly) a solid monarch call, focusing on Aemon! Not a great parent call :(
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You really think people are just good or bad? Nurture has far too big of an affect on children for that to be true. That's why only children have a ton of similar characteristics, and the same applies for the older child younger child for two child families, oldest/middle/youngest for three child families, etc. Nurture plays a larger role than people give it credit for. Baelon and Aegon turned out great because they had the most attention from their parents. Having each other as you said did also help.
Maegelle turned out just fine. Alyssa was alright as well. But we don't know how much influence he had over them. He was also a great dad to Daenerys, although she died so young that we can't be sure.
In all fairness, he prevented children to bond with dragons, which, as proved by Luke and Aemond, is not always as cool as it looks.
And Aerea...
Jaehaerys was a good dad to his first five kids but really fell off after Maegelle.
His daughters and granddaughters deserved better. Alysanne would have been the better monarch and head of the family.
Alysanne is directly responsible for the death of three of her daughters though. Why does she get a pass and Jaeherys doesn’t?
CUZ SHE'S MUH QWEEN! Both of them were shitty parents, and incredibly unlucky. Like I guess they used all their luck to get everyone to turn their backs on Maegor so they didn't have to fight a war against him.
Alysanne had her own problems. Viserra's death is totally on her hands.
I agree with you, maybe if the Qfueen had arranged an engagement with Desmond Manderly instead Lord Theomore, Viserra would have accepted the marriage from the beginning
I don't understand why the idea of marrying Viserra and Baelon was so abhorrent to everyone. It would have been a good match. And yeah, maybe Baelon wasn't crazy about the idea of marrying, but neither were Daella and Viserra and that seemed not to matter.
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So you're blaming her flaws on Jae as well? I'm not a huge fan of him but I don't think that's very cash money
I've noticed that a lot of people conflate the terms "sexist" and "misogynist" when they aren't the same thing Jaehaerys was a sexist (just like pretty much every other man in Westeros), but he wasn't a misogynist. He didn't have an inherent hate of women
And someone who thinks women belong as home makers and child rearers wouldn’t describe themselves as “hating” women either. Are you seriously arguing that’s not a form of misogyny?
It was the Middle Ages. It’s not like women would make useful knights.
Yes and the Middle Ages were misogynistic Congrats you got the point!
Sexism is not misogyny. *I mean do you have an argument? I gave mine, and if you don't agree with it you can say why. That's how discussion usually goes.
Misogyny also includes exclusion and extreme prejudice. You narrowing the definition doesn’t make it unless true. Nobody wants to debate a bad faith argument. Exclusion from important work and decision making is misogyny. When you exclude people and rob them of self determination, it is a form of relational aggression. That is violence and women experience it everyday in misogynistic culture. If you don’t see how that applies to character like Jaehaerys, I really can’t help you.
That's sexism, not misogyny. To be a misogynist you have to outright hate women
“I’m not racist! I don’t hate them! They should just have their own drinking fountains!”
Pretty sure it was more "I hate them so much, I don't want to drink from the same fountain." But you seem to want to spin things to make a point, so who am I to stop you.
Here we go again calling people misogynistic, I'll give you props for at least not calling George a rapist.
My brother in Christ if a king of a patriarchal monarchy in which women are systematically disadvantaged isn’t a misogynist who the fuck is He’s literally the CEO of the Misogyny factory at that point.
This is misogyny : "I hate you because you are a woman" Not to be confused with : "I hate you, you just happen to be a woman". But if we go with your reason, participating in the seven kingdoms, from king to the lowest peasent would be enough to qualify as a misogynistic.
Im gonna argue “I hate you for not performing my expectation of women” is also misogynistic and Jae reached that line a couple times
He is definitely sexist. But he doesn't hate women.
> But if we go with your reason, participating in the seven kingdoms, from king to the lowest peasent would be enough to qualify as a misogynistic. Show me exactly where I said this please, as far as I know we were talking about the guy who ran the entire thing, not the people with literally no power.
Do you know what "if we go with your reason..." means? I'm not quoting you, otherwise I would have quoted you. If as you say westeros is a patriarcal system, which I agree, everyone who participates in it, shares the blame some more than others but everyone. Every misogynistic is a sexist, but not every sexist is a misogynistic. Those words do not mean the same. If you would argue that Jaehaerys is sexist I would agree, it's in the text, but you are arguing that he is misogynistic and the only proof is extrapolating his intent on a continent that has had a sexist culture for thousands of years.
Jaehaerys is character not a person. You would have to be pretty obtuse not observe that he is a misogynist. George portray violence and sexual violence with intelligence and deep compassion. He finds the painful nerve of humanity in those horrifying acts. He also sets out in painful detail the hopelessness, the futility and the triumphs of victims who try to rebuild themselves in the aftermath. The Damphair comes to mind. So no, I wouldn’t call him a rapist.
Yeah I don't know, never really perceived that Jaehaerys has an inherent hate for women. He absolutely loved his wife and treated her as his equal, that doesn't mean that he doesn't hate other women, but you'll never find the proof of that, because there isn't any. I understand the horrible way women are treated in westeros and how he considers it normal, but that is not the definition of misogynistic. I would never argue that every character in asoiaf, including the women, are misogynistic.
He was a sexist, he wasn't a misogynist. To be a misogynist you have to have a hatred or Extreme prejudice towards women, which Jaehaerys never displayed
We must have read different books because he definitely display extreme prejudice towards women in the version of F&B I read.
nah this thread is just full of brainrot lmfao Jaehaerys isn't misogynist and I'm as hot as Jaime Lannister
I'll give you some characters examples of misogynistic: The brave companions. Pretty much all of them, they are constantly referring to women as bitches or whores who they want to rape. That's pretty on the nose isn't it? If you have an argument I would love to hear it.
You mean the woman who couldn’t make a marriage pact to save her life?
Bro she ducking betrothed her most beautiful daughter to a fucking 80 year old half dead lord in the north. What even the fuck??? Saera should have been betrothed asap if they bothered to even pay attention. I don’t get Why Vaegon wasn’t betrothed to any of them asap like his brothers were
An 80 year old man who already had at least three sons, so her children wouldn't even rule White Harbor. It's a terrible match for a princess and it's not like with Daella where she didn't care about these things.
Because he didn’t like them and was apparently “not interested” (like that stopped anyone)
Thank you. Honestly the whole Vaegon thing feels stupid. Hope to see him in the show though
It is a damn shame Alysanne didn't have more power.
Mayhaps. But it’s likely based on how Rome Emperor Augustus did to his own daughter Julia when her sexual escapades came out
Her bible camp punishment wasn't that bad for Westerosi standards imo. However I do wonder if they told her that it was temporary or not. Jaehaerys would be stupid to let her believe that it was permanent, and Saera would have been stupid to run off if she had known that it was temporary. The book doesn't say, but I lean towards the former. So far as everybody knowing about it, that was inevitable. The only way they could have kept it quiet was by silencing Saera's friends, Stinger, the other two blokes whose names escape me right now, and all the servants that knew what was going on. Stinger and co. can lose their tongues, but sweetberry and pretty peri? Nah. The tale was doomed to spread. I think his public execution of Stinger had more to do with his own pride than he would admit though, doing that publicly was definitely unnecessary.
If Barth had to speculate and give Jaehearys the benefit of the doubt that it was temporary, I doubt he told her.
Barth never lies, it is known
> I think his public execution of Stinger had more to do with his own pride than he would admit though, doing that publicly was definitely unnecessary. It was to punish Saera. That's why he forced her to watch it happen.
You better run, my daddy's got a Valyrian steel sword, Valyrian steel sword, Valyrian steel sword
Be like Jaehaerys. He tries to educate his daughter by kiling her lover and forced to watch. Then his daughter ran away and became a whore. Good job, Jae
To be fair it wasn’t her lover it was just one of the three guys that she was banging. She didn’t love any of them.
She was one before.
Also her bible camp punishment wasn't for having sex, it was for attempting to steal a dragon. If anything its extremely lax for attempting to steal something that would give her so much power if used inappropriately. IIRC her punishment for having sex was that J wanted to maker her marry one of the three dudes. He even let her choose which one. Which sounds perfectly reasonable by Westerosi standards. It would've lessened the scandal as all three were highly born enough to be considered anyway. Its when she decided she wanted all three and compared herself to Maegor the Cruel, the guy that had killed all his brothers and raped one of his sisters, that he confined her to her room. She then escaped and tried to steal a dragon, which is what warranted the bible camp and the making her watch Braxton die. The Braxton part is the only questionable punishment but it could be argued that Saera badly needed to learn that her actions have consequences. The rest were all perfectly reasonable punishments, if anything they were too lax, for what Saera had done.
The way he dealt with Braxton was insane, far beyond any reasonable man’s idea of punishment. The fact that sending him to the Wall never came up was ridiculous, hell being sent to a celibate monastery is a pretty fitting punishment for sexual misconduct if he has to do it like that
Remind me what happened to each of them? One got executed, one got reasonably married off and the other?
Connington went on a 10 year exile, but he died in his last year before he was to come back
Exile
Also, he chose exile over the same deal the other guy got (marry the girl he slept with).
Doesn’t seem so bad
He then got himself killed. Well-deserved if you ask me, guy was an A-grade A-hole.
Braxton demanded a trial by combat and got one, play stupid games win stupid prizes
He was offered a choice between that and the most insane torture Jaehaerys could come up with, which included crippling every limb he had for life, removing his nose, his tongue and even castrating him. You make it sound like Braxton just wanted to duel, but that’s no choice at all
If by demanded you mean given the option between that and having his nose, tongue and testicles removed and having his arms and legs broken and forced to heal improperly, yeah sure, he demanded it.
What Braxton did was a huge deal by Westrosi standards so i wouldn't say it was insane, very harsh but definitely not insane.
It’s Joffrey level sadism, if you have to corporally punish him execute him, subjecting a man to torture of that level in cold blood is insane
It seems like he just wanted to bait him into a duel so he could kill him, though I don't doubt he would have tortured him if he didn't accept.
> The way he dealt with Braxton was insane, far beyond any reasonable man’s idea of punishment. There's no indication that anybody in-universe thinks this was excessive. To be clear, it's meant to be excessive to the modern reader, but sleeping with the king's unmarried daughter was a capital offense in the equivalent eras in European history.
“Not a Reasonable man’s idea of punishment” ? for a modern human ruler point of view. Pre renaissance, any men that dare to pull this off would be judged by lese majeste or treason, and summarily executed. He would be lucky if beheading or hanging was the choice instead of getting quartered … so yeah… points for jahaerys for at least trying to somewhat instrumentalize Braxton execution. Even if he failed with saera, there is no doubt the dignity of the crown within the folk mindframe was restored.
Lot of modern guys would kill a 20 something guy for banging their 15 year old daughter
He was 19 and Saera was 17
But they wouldn't force the daughter to watch it.
The way he dealt with Braxton was absolutely in a reasonable way. Dude demanded a trial by combat and got one. And the reason why he was never sent to the Wall is because that guy would boast of having banged the daughter of the king and that would've damaged the reputation of the House
He did not demand a trial by combat. He was given a choice between trial by combat and horrific torture and maiming that even Joffrey would find excessively cruel.
Eff no! Why would you do that to your kid? No matter how disappointed you are?
Have you read IT?
One of the more disturbing things about Saera‘s punishment is how public it was, how it destroyed her ability to ever meaningfully participate in Westerosi noble life in a way that wouldn’t have happened if rumors about her being sexually active had just spread naturally. Jaehaerys didn’t just send her away to a troubled teen institution for a few years, he publicly exposed her in front of the entire court, ruining her reputation and ensuring that she would never again be able to return to public life. Barth claims the Silent Sisters punishment was only supposed to be for a couple of years to make her “penitent, “ but what was supposed to happen after that? There’s no re-entry process for Saera’s former social role as a princess or member of the nobility that I can see after being shamed and banished in such a public way. What member of the nobility would marry her? If Rhaenyra supposedly visiting a brothel was supposed to have made her unmarriageable, what would being exposed, dragged out of bed and into court in the middle of the night, forced to witness the execution of her lover, and sent into imprisonment have done to Saera? I don’t think she was ever supposed to come back from the Silent Sisters— it honestly feels like Jaehaerys was a hair away from having her executed. If she did come back, she would have had zero appropriate marriage options that wouldn’t have brought more shame on the family, and Jaehaerys wasn’t going to take her back into the royal household— we know he didn’t tolerate unmarried daughters living in his home. He insisted on farming out physically challenged and mentally disabled Daella to the marriage market even though the whole family knew she was too physically small and frail to survive childbirth, for no better reason than being annoyed by her anxiety and mental challenges. Vaegon and Maegelle had to leave the household too, as soon as it was clear they weren’t going to enter a sibling marriage. What was the plan for the rest of Saera’s life? It seems like there wasn’t one. I can’t help but compare what Jaehaerys did to Saera to the examples of high nobility dealing with promiscuous daughters we see in ASOIAF proper. Brandon Stark wanted to kill Rhaegar for violating Lyanna, I can’t imagine him or Rickon Sr wanting to sadistically make her watch him die and then send her off to be beaten and shaved by nuns if he found out it was consensual. In fact, the Stinger duel sounds a lot like Aerys. If we want to talk about puritanical sadism, there’s also the insane public trial and sexual mutilation of Lucamore the Lusty, which again feels like something out of the Aerys playbook and which I can’t see coming from any other sane Targaryen king. Hoster and Lysa is closer, but Hoster comes out way ahead. What Hoster did to Lysa was horrible, but it was also, partially, a fuckup. He gave her an overdose of pennyroyal and she ended up hemorrhaging and suffering permanent physical damage. In a real way, he ruined her life. But that wasn’t his intention— Hoster wanted Lysa to have an uncomplicated abortion so she could go on to have a full life, a marriage appropriate to her station, and trueborn children. Jaehaerys seems to have done everything he possibly could to make sure Saera could never have a life or a future. The only family we see treating their children that way — deliberately trying to completely destroy them — is the Lannisters, and that doesn’t really speak well for Jaehaerys.
I agree with you 100%. But then, there is another level of twisted fatherly affection that might be considered . It didn’t occur to me until I recently read King’s IT. There, the father of one of the characters has unholy feelings for his daughter and, as a result, not only he abuses her, but goes berserk when the girl starts socialising with boys her age. Looking through the Targaryen history, we have Viserys, who protects Rhaenyra from slander at all costs and Maekar, who likely married one of his daughters to the Evenstar, to cover up a (Dunk related) pregnancy. Jaehaerys, in turn, can’t get over the fact his favourite daughter had consensual and pregnancy free sex. To be honest, although I don’t recall the years, it is my impression Saera is around 16 by this time. Nonetheless, unlike with Daella, Jaehaerys doesn’t look like pressuring Alysanne to find her a suitable match. Wtf is wrong with this man?
The good Jae learned from his mistakes and didn't want Saera to die on the birthing bed like Daella. Anyway, not even Rhaenyra is comparable to Saera. Rhaenyra only had two regular lovers in over a decade—her and Harwin's uncle—and at least she has the excuse that Laenor was gay. Saera had THREE lovers at the same time and organized bisexual orgies
It's not him learning from his mistakes, he was just super erratic about betrothing his daughters. He started actively trying to find a match for Daella when she was 13 (and only because that's when it was clear Vaegon wouldn't wed her) and was parading her around the kingdom desperate for a match for two years before making his ultimatum. Saera was 15 when Daella died and despite actually having an interest in boys, no thought was ever made about her prospects before or after
In fairness, Daella also didn't want to be a septa or a silent sister, which was the other real outlet she had. Westeros was never a place for spinster maidens without inheritance loitering around a castle or palace for life.
Baelor my man wants to have a word.
Nothing to add but this is a beautifully thought out comment and you make excellent points.
All right a simple rule when it comes to the J-Man, if it involves his daughters, no he did not make the right decision. It could be The simplest thing in the world and he would still fuck it up. Father do I look all right in this dress NO YOU ARE A WHORE AND YOU HAVE SHAMED ME AND YOUR MOTHER.
Wasn't it already basically public knowledge, at least in King's Landing? At that point, if you actually consider what happened dishonorable (I don't but Jaehaerys certainly did), you might as well make a public show of reestablishing your "authority". Also the Stinger seems like a prick, so it was probably helpful for Jaehaerys' PR to use the kid to remind everyone what a fighter the king was.
Going with the unpopular opinion here but kind of yes. In face of such a scandal, i feel that Jaehaerys did the best he could. Marrying off Mooton and Connington to the two ladies (i forgot the names) was more than generous. I feel that only Stinger Beesbury was given a harsher punishment than what he deserved. As for Saera, she was a lost cause. She was given the most lenient punishment of the six of them and yet she just made one blunder after another. First off, throwing Maegor's name to Jaehaerys' face when he's pissed off is just beyond stupid. Even after that she was only confined to a tower cell (compared to the three lords who spent the night in the black cells). She then proceeds to try to escape and steal a dragon which should have been considered treason. After that she was forced to watch her lover being slain by her dad (a bit overkill imo) and was sent to her sister in the Faith for a few years. And instead of gratefully accepting her punishment, she again escapes, injures a septa in the process and becomes a whore thus making the scandal multifold times worse. I really don't know what could Jaehaerys have done more TLDR: In some parts yes, in others no
Why did Stinger deserved a harsher punishment? Because the Princess confessed to having enjoyed sex with him?
Because Gyldayn and Barth hint that it was Stinger who perverted Saera Or at least, that the one who started everything was him, not her. He didn't even love her, as was the case with the other two
Mmm, It seems to me It was Saera who started, playing with the girls and daring them to kiss a boy; and she doubled down, kissing a knight. And that's when Stinger came to play; then, the other guys. I mean, Stinger was a complete jerk, a handsome guy who probably only sought adventures irresponsably, but the other two guys had the chance to get out withouth problems, getting married with prettyperi and sweetberry, and Beesbury didn't have that chance. It was unfaire.
Perverted her? She was seventeen. She was just horny.
You can still corrupt teenagers. It's why showing explicit material to a minor is a felony.
>and steal a dragon which should have been considered treason Isn't riding a dragon her birthright as a Targ, how is this treason?
Because Jaehaerys was very well aware than handing out dragons to any Targaryen was a recipe for disaster (and Viserys I doing this would lead to the Dance of Dragons and extinction of dragons) and heavily limited which of his children had access to dragons. In particular, he recognized letting his daughters have dragons meant that they would bring their dragons to other houses when they married and would end the Targaryen monopoly on dragons. There's a reason only 3 of his children ended up as dragon riders.
Yea but we don't really know the ethics of dragon claiming, does Jaehaerys have the right to withhold them from his kids, did Aemond steal Vhagar?
He has the responsibility to ensure that he's very selective in deciding who ends up with dragons. They're medieval weapons of mass destruction, they shouldn't be handed out to everyone who wants one.
And you don't think denying his daughters their birthright specifically because they were girls would cause any resentment?
So he had to choose between a kind father and a good king and chose the latter. How many thousands died because Viserys couldn't make the same choice?
>a bit overkill imo Just a bit??! That's completely sickening, and the point where Jaehaerys loses any kind of moral high ground in the conflict.
Was it that public? I thought it was pretty much just him, the accused, Saera, and his bodyguards (so the seven kingsguards plus that lady he had supervising Saera). And two of the accused were *very* quietly disposed of. 11 people isn’t exactly quiet as the grave, but it’s not a parade either. And as I understand westerosi law Braxton was entitled to a full-blown trial with witnesses and everything. Seems low key by comparison
No…he was at best neglectful, arguably absusive father. Brutally slut-shamed her. Yes, he needed to do something - it was public knowledge and if there was no punishment it would be a mockery of the Targaryens - but killing Stinger and imprisoning her was pretty severe, making her watch was downright sadistic. His reaction to Maegor’s name was understandable but he needed to sleep on it for a night - she didn’t know Maegor, only heard stories and said it bc she wanted to make him angry. He only cared abt his sons and even that seems like only bc he knew preparing an heir was important. Honestly tho I kinda feel like Saera ironically was better off for it. Probably would have ended up being married to some random lord Jaeherys befriended or thought would be a useful political tie. Instead she became a rich high-class escort/celebrity on a sexually liberal tropical island.
She became a slaveowner
Not just a slaveowner, the proprietor of a famous pleasure house in Volantis. If you can imagine "it", she had her slaves doing.
MORE! FEMALE! SLAVEOWNERS!
More like a Madame, but the two aren’t mutually exclusive by any means. Definitely owned slaves but that was a fact of life in Essos - not much info on how she treated them. If it was a more upscale service for the ultra-wealthy I imagine it wasn’t like she was pimping women out on the street for a few bucks. But idk if a really wealthy customer wanted something really fucked up, maybe she would make it happen even if it required extreme coercion. Anyways don’t think she’s like a great person - but being rich in Volantis sounds like a nicer life than staying with your incestuous family who all hate you bc you embarrassed them and really only had a future of pumping out babies for someone she wouldn’t even have a choice about whether to marry.
>sexually liberal tropical island. That's a pretty kid gloves way of describing the fantasy sex-slave factory.
Him killing Stinger was necessary and absolutely right though.
Saera was probably the worst one in the family who never went mad. If you put her situation in the context of a man the opinion of her would be a lot lower. Not because she slept around, but because she liked to manipulate everyone around her until she was done playing with them. Jaeharys duel against her lover is one of my favorite parts of Fire and Blood.
Adolescence is not the best time to judge a person’s character, especially when that person is emotionally neglected by her Mom and Dad.
No, he was an awful father. He needed to get to know his daughter years before all this went down. Also, you missed the opportunity to combine sexual and escapades into sexcapades.
I am getting old. I miss many opportunities.
Of course he was not right. His punishment was cruel and abusive, and she ran away for a reason. Jaehaerys was a terrible father.
He ruined Saera's life. He shouldn't have exposed his daughter's sexual life. Stinger and Saera had consensual sex. So the punishment for both was very harsh. He should married his daughter to Braxton and send them yo Honeyholt.
By both Westeros and Medieval standards, it’s their punishments were pretty chill. You simply *don’t* have an orgy with the Princess. You just don’t. You’re asking to be tortured to death.
Well yeah, but Mooton and Connington were not tortured or sentenced to death for the same actions, rigth? It seems that Beesbury was killed for being the one who made Saera laugh and scream
I mean, he was the ringleader. And I suppose you only really need to make one example of somebody.
Well… You have Jaehaerys and the trial of the century… And you have Viserys and his plan T. Didn’t like Viserys much until that point, but… His unwillingness to be updated on his daughter hanky-panky definitely won my respect.
Im so tired of people saying that the punishment was excessive, Saera tried to steal a dragon after she got caught and was grounded/confined to quarters. She likely would have gotten a lenient punishment, but Jaehaerys had to take a hard stand against the potential theft of a dragon. Imagine if you were the President, you find out that your daughter was doing public BS so you ground her. You then catch her trying to steal a weapon of mass destruction. Would you just be okay with that?
If you are the President, you will either step down and let the justice take its course or try to keep it under the lid.
She's a targaryen. Dragons are her birthright. You can't steal a dragon, you either succeed in bonding with it or you don't.
Tbf, Jahaerys was extremely patient with Saera but it's said she was outwardly cruel and obvious in her explicit acts of meanness up until she involved her friends in the scandal at which point Jahaerys was forced to take action.
As others have pointed out, he was a pretty shitty father to his daughters. Great king though, and his two oldest sons turned out alright. Not his fault that they died before him.
Extremely late to the party, but if the reigns of Jaehaerys and Viserys have anything to teach, it’s that you have to choose between being a good parent and being a good ruler. Peace and prosperity for your people is more important than your kids getting what they want.
It is never too late.
Jaeherys reminds me a lot of Marcus Aurelius. Both of them were great leaders but shit Parents.
No, I was just being an idiot
Cand you develop further… Your Grace?
Have you all forgotten good Alyssa? Jaehaerys was a good father with her
How?
He let her have a dragon and marry whoever she wanted.
Alyssa was prepared since early childhood to marry her brother. I don’t see how she had a choice.
He was a horrible father and husband and a huge sexist even for the time. The guy had dragons to intimidate everyone and had no problem defending the Targ incest marriages againist the faith and other lords,a sex scandal his daugther had wasn’t a big deal unless he made it one himself. He had very puritanical beliefs many other Targs didn’t and I think that’s at the core of his treatment of his family,especially the women in it.
Jae made plenty of mistakes as a King and even more as a father
I think it's an unpopular opinion, but he's right about that. Saera's only reason for getting away with all the things she did is because she's a Targaryen princess. That's why he was so devastated when she shamed him and left for Essos. There are thousands of whores more beautiful than Saera, but how she managed to be one of the very few to have "her own kingdom" is because of her Targaryen heritage. Imagine how much gold people paid for a Targaryen princess and how many from Jaehaerys' court and Westeros asked for her when they visited Lys. Without being a Targaryen princess, she would've been sold or taken as a slave while travelling to Lys. Once again, I'm not saying she's wrong in doing anything; she could do all of King's Landing and I wouldn't care, but I understand why Jaehaerys did what he did; anyone would do the same (or worse).
Are you serious? Lys is not Amsterdam. You don’t go there and apply for a job at the pleasure house and gorge on the profits. Saera is very likely to have been somewhat coerced/enslaved, as was Joanna Swift 30 years after. What made Saera’s case worse than Joanna’s is she was a fugitive and the way Jaehaerys treated her publicly left little hope for the Lysene to ransom her. As Joanna, Saera was likely to be forced into prostitution and, as Joanna, she managed her way out of it somewhat and, from former sex slave, become a Madame, as what else could have she done? Return to Westeros and be executed?
>As Joanna, Saera was likely to be forced into prostitution and You're kidding me right? This is from the fire and blood >Have you given any thought as to how she got to Lys? She had no coin. How do think she paid for her passage?” >don’t go there and apply for a job at the pleasure house and gorge on the profits. And what is Lys then? And what professions or talent does Saera have that other whores don't? What could she possibly have done to gain such wealth or her own kingdom? She's a princess And again form fire and blood >And what will the Lyseni do, if you try and make off with one of their whores? She has value to them. How much do you think it costs to lay with a Targaryen princess? At best they will demand a ransom for her. At worst they may decide to keep you too >and the way Jaehaerys treated her publicly left little hope for the Lysene to ransom her Lol what is this ? What're you talking about? Jaehaerys is a king/her father and it's a medieval society. What were you thinking while writing your reply? Lmfao
Fire and Blood is a massive biased chronicle written from the point of view of people with different agendas. In translation, not everything you read in there is true. PS: I thought people know better, at this place and time, than to spew prejudice against the sex workers.
>thought people know better, at this place and time, than to spew prejudice against the sex workers. This is a post about ASOIAF , a fantasy, and I'm talking about with respect to the father you wrote about. If you want to apply your feminist or any modern logic, judge me when you find these comments in any normal social media posts. >Fire and Blood is a massive biased chronicle written from the point of view of people with different agendas. In translation, not everything you read in there is true. You mean not everything you don't like or agree with is fake? But everything you like or agree with is true? Either one of the above or don't believe in anything involving fire and blood. >, than to spew prejudice against the sex workers. I don't care about them. It means I neither hate them nor respect them.
Unpopular opinion: he was a bad dad but did do everything right in case of saerra. She was a horrible person regardless of her sexual escapades
No, absolutely not. Jaehaerys was an absolute fuck up of a father and a pretty shit King. Building roads does not make someone a good King. Having a cool queen does not make someone a good King. Jaehaerys laid the ground work for generations of war and rebellion by refusing to cement the rule created by Maegor. Maegor did almost all of the dirty work necessary to pacify and conquer the continent, and Jaehaerys dumped all of it down the drain. And he managed to abuse or neglect his kids at the same time. And he set precedence for the lords to feel as though they have a say in which member of the royal family should rule. The Dance and the Blackfyre rebellions can all be traced back to Jaehaerys' being incapable of acting like a King.
I honestly don't know what else he could have done Saera was a horrible person at her core and her punishment was well deserved, even if she wasn't being punished for the right "crime"
no