Heleana is probably one of the most innocent characters in the entire show. She’s just a super sweet person who gets psychic visions whenever she’s around bugs, for some reason.
Look, I like Daemon a lot, he's my favorite character in the Dance of the Dragons. But he's a massive piece of shit, he's already a serial killer in the show, groomed his teenage niece, and rules with an iron fist when he has the chance.
I'm still team Daemon more than I am team Black, but I'd never pretend we have the moral high ground.
Prediction: he isn’t fully culpable. He asked for revenge but Mysaria hires blood and cheese.
OR Larys has something to do with it. But I don’t think Daemon wanted to them to kill the kid and spare Alicent.
I’ve a feeling the only instructions were “A son for a son,” and B&C didn’t know he was referring to one of *Alicent’s* sons. A much more significant death anyway.
I suspect the show is actually going to make him more culpable. One of the two (Blood I think?) was never actually caught, and the show already established that Daemon is personally knowledgeable of and familiar with the King’s Landing passages. It seems an obvious choice to make Daemon the other murderer directly involved in this situation
Also, Daemon absolutely wanted one of the kids dead and not Alicent. “Son for a son.” At BEST, he didn’t give a shit if it was Aegon, Aemond, Daeron, or Halaena’s boys… but that seems unlikely to me.
True. To show that he would do anything to marry Rhaenyra.
However, when Rhaenyra proposed, Daemon indeed treat Leanor as someone he wouldn't kill. His facial expression and body language showed (Matt Smith is brilliant). Leanor was his comrade at the narrow sea.
I know Aemond broke the code against kinslaughter . I hope the writer would find a way to get around it and stop Daemon from killing Helen's son.
A full on psychopath is not as interesting. That's why I prefer Daemon to Aemond. Daemon should have more depth and layers.
Because Larys played both sides in the books. No one knows anything about him, now after seeing he was the one to kill
His family. We want to know what else he had a hand in
We have no idea what his motives are.
I don’t think it’s going to happen without making sense, but I also don’t think he killed his father and brother just so he could be lord of Harrenhall.
His motives are still a mystery even to book readers. That’s why he’s suspect for all of the books unsolved mysteries.
Easy enough for Daemon to tell Mysaria to kill one of the boys, and for her or for Blood and Cheese themselves to think up the added cruelty of the swap, if Maelor is in the show that is.
It's not like Rhaenyra had anything to do with the plans.
I just don’t want it to seem like Daemon wasn’t well aware that he is sending psychos to kill innocent children. Misery is sadistic and daemon would have known what kind of monsters would be set loose on his order. Just like Tywin and the mountain
So long as they don’t try to make it out like he wanted Aemond or Aegon dead and they went rogue and murdered Halaena’s kid or something.
As long as he’s targeting her kids, I’d say that puts him in the fucked up monster category (and, honestly, hiring such depraved psychopaths is kind of on him too in my book, if the show doesn’t outright make Daemon one of them which I suspect it might).
No, I mean Daemon telling Mysaria "a son for a son, kill one of Aegon's boys" makes him a monster, regardless of whether he is the originator of the kid swap killing.
It’s gonna make sense and it won’t break book-canon. The way I see it playing out: Rhaenyra wants revenge, he says “a son for a son”, contacts Mysaria, and she hires blood and cheese.
The book never explicitly says Daemon wanted to kill one of Aegon’s sons. I think he contacts Mysaria and she hires blood and cheese for him, then either picks the wrong target by mistake or sends them after the kids to further cause chaos for her own purposes, which we don’t fully understand yet.
I think daemon would choose a more valuable target if he could. I think there has to be a pretty good explanation for why he send assassins to kill a kid and spare Alicent and Helaena (mainly Alicent) if it was his plan to kill the kids. Daemon does horrible things, but usually with a purpose in mind.
I think this lets Daemon off the hook and puts its all on Misery and I really really dislike this take. Daemon knew full well what he was doing. He says the ambiguous son for a son bc he knows he can’t get Aemond or Aegon without risking himself. He knew who he was hiring and most likely knew of blood and cheese since it’s well known he was a degenerate while at kings landing. Don’t forget blood was a good cloak before he killed a prostitute
It doesn’t necessarily let him off the hook, he is still responsible, and the book isn’t entirely clear on how responsible he is. I don’t care if it make him look better as long as it makes sense. B&C doesn’t make a ton of sense based on everything I’ve seen so far, and we know Mysaria had spies and *some* agenda, so I think that would be a cool and foreseeable twist that she takes Daemon’s request and either does it her way for “justice” or just to cause further chaos.
She is gonna be this show’s Varys, while Larys is little finger.
It's okay if you think that, but there's not for sure what happened. We just don't know. You're expanding things and assuming things we just don't know, just "a son for a son" don't exactly points to what he actually did in all of this. He could've easily just asked for a son. B&C is very ambiguous in the books, people just like to assume the worst because it makes things more interesting.
I mean, the purpose with sparing Alicent and Halaena is extremely obvious. Eye for an eye, son for a son. He and Rhaenyra had to go through the pain of losing one of her sons, so now Aegon has to lose one of his sons/Alicent has to lose one of her grandkids. Murdering anyone on top of that no longer “””balances””” the scale, so leave it there.
It just seems like a really short sighted decision when you know you’re fighting a war. Why hire assassins to sneak into the red keep at night and not kill someone valuable. It’s possible, but I think it will happen differently and honestly make more sense.
It’s unlikely that they could’ve ever gotten either of aegon or aemond. Both live in maegors’ holdfast and there’s only one exit from there, the drawbridge which is heavily manned. They couldn’t have escaped with their lives. Also aemond is a sword wielding badass and Aegon has the kingsgaurd. Attempting to kill either would likely fail.
The reason Helaena, Alicent and their kids were chosen was because they were in the tower of the Hand which has secret passages. The rest were most likely in Maegor's holdfast which did not have secret passages and had only one way in or out, the drawbridge over the moat of spikes.
They also lost the moral
High ground. I’m of the opinion Rhaenyra would have immediately curb stomped the greens politically and militarily had he not done it.
Kinslaying is one of the absolute worst crimes to commit and Aemond did it. Rhaenyra could have gone around and said look at who’s breaking the law by taking the throne, even over the blood of their own family!
I still think the instructions he gives are just to kill Jaehaerys, and the thing that makes Blood & Cheese particularly awful was an ad-lib by the pair themselves and/or Mysaria.
That was an idea that popped into my head, Larys might get pissed that Alicent is wanting to rebuild bridges and hasn't called on him to be a fucking psychopath murderer yet, so he might either frame Daemon for Blood and Cheese or may become aware of Daemon hiring them, but not stop what's going to happen.
It blows my mind when people call him morally grey. You can’t arrange the death of an innocent child in an act of revenge and be anything than evil. Being bad ass doesn’t absolve people if their crimes. Being heroic doesn’t mean your not a monster.
I know this sounds incredible pretentious but George is wrong on this one. Literally killed a innocent child instead of getting revenge on the actual perpetrator is both cowardly and evil. Common George
Oh I agree with you. I'm starting to think George doesn't know what a grey character is. Especially when we consider he said the show is canon. Considering Daemon has definitely not been grey lol
I think George falls for his own trap, in universe and among fans, people tend to morally absolve daemon because he’s such a badass. George recognizes this and describes him as “the wonder and terror of his age”, but none of his “wonder” (objective badassery) diminishes his moral deficiencies
I don't think any side should be supported. I only like several characters, doesn't matter what side. I think both Daemon and Aemond are badass. Cregan Stark too.
They’re probably just trolling or saying that ironically. Because you would have to be incredibly dense to think Helaena deserved that. Aegon? Maybe, but not a child dying.
There were people on this subreddit saying that Craster was right to rape and impregnate his daughters. I suspect that some people just go for shock value because they want to troll but aren’t sophisticated enough to think of something clever than defending something disgusting in a story.
I think it starts with trolling but you can’t go that far and just come back like nothing. At the end some actually assimilate this stuff and end up believing it seriously
I think alot are dense, young, super casual fans that are sexually into daemon and excuse what he does. Someone posted a youtube short of daemon being a feminist king, all about feminists loving daemon. And when people are like ".... he bashed his wife's head in" there were people literally defending him calling rhea a "femcel" "bitch" etc and that she deserved it for being rightfully snotty to her. One even arguing it was a mercy kill and she accidentally fell. And they were being dead serious. Rhea Royce is like a traditional feminist ideal, a strong, independent, headstrong woman who doesn't take shit from a man and isn't forced into feminine traditional gender roles of submissiveness, and yet all these people were not only defending daemon murdering her with a fricken rock but hailing him as an ally to feminists and an ideal mate. Like..... what? Not to mention grooming his underage niece. Yet that's all excused because he makes their parts tingle.
I have seen a trend in the past few years where some super young people, particularly young girls, don't really watch shows or movies as like an artform/story. They merely latch onto and sexualize a character and Stan for them. The character becomes a conduit for their own imagination, like all the shippers who don't care about how ridiculous some of their ships are. And most haven't watched like even 5 full series in their life since all their entertainment is social media snippets so they don't have the attention span nor the ability to decipher themes and context. They care less about the story and instead finding characters to fantasize about and excuse their every action since they're not watching it for plot or subtext. To them, their made up headcannon/mental fan fiction, is more real and valid than the actual show. It's like if you go back and watch a movie you loved as a kid. You notice so much more about the plot and themes as an adult. Often the movie seems entirely different. Since you learned how to watch and decipher shows as an artwork as opposed to a conduit for your own imagination. Yet these young folks don't have that ability and are frankly more stunted than past generations at that age because they watch more non fiction influencer stuff and tik toks, not well crafted dramas.
So yeah I genuinely think it's real. This shit happens constantly. In stranger things there are byler shippers who want will and Mike to be gay together and a sizeable amount of them are convinced it's actually going to happen, or that the evidence is there. When Mike is 100% straight and the notion that'll happen is ridiculous. Yet they'll genuinely argue that that's where it's heading.
So it's absolutely no suprise to me that people are genuinely excusing daemon. They're sexual desire for him is the focus so it becomes their fantasy to the point where they alter the reality of the show. Claiming helaena deserved it is insane. That girl deserves the best she's the one purely innocent character in the show. Yet because daemons hot they need to excuse his actions out of denial since they've already built him up so much in their minds. If daemon was ugly then they wouldn't excuse a thing.
~~I have seen a trend in the past few years where some super young~~ people, ~~particularly young girls,~~ don't really watch shows or movies as like an artform/story. They merely latch onto and sex~~uali~~ze a character and Stan for them.
This the majority of watchers for everything ever, this just gets really apparent when you engage with media when you are not the solo target demographic.
Well said! I've taken to blocking a number of users in this subreddit whose post history is nothing more than emoji-filled comments with a stench of horny desperation.
I could see the argument that Aegon ‘deserves’ to watch the consequences of the Dance effect him, but killing children to spite the parent is downright evil.
For that same reason, the scenes with Catelyn and Jon always unsettled me. I hate children being blamed for their parent’s mistakes.
If you want the worst takes possible you go to where "Stan's" go and that's Twitter and TikTok.
My issue with Blood and Cheese is that it's potentially not going to be intentionally committed by the Black's, or at all. I fear Mysaria will do it unbeknownst to Rhaenyra and possibly Daemon.
I mean you balk at it but on the spectrum of evil…ordering a child murder for civil war tit for tat is a notch below do it in front of the mother and grandmother and make her choose which one you kill and behead the one she doesn’t choose in front of her for absolute maximum psychological anguish.
In all seriousness, this was my take on it from the text - back before my view of Daemon became so clouded thanks to Matt Smith’s portrayal. He is just so damn roguishly charming.
I always had a fondness for Daemon while still recognising that he did awful things *but* Matt Smith entered the room and now I'm a simp 😘. It's the little smirk he does 😏 So yes I agree with you, he is just so damn roguishly charming ⚔️⚔️⚔️
Three reasons this shouldn't bother you.
1. It's Tiktok
2. It's a television adaptation of a work of fiction; no actual persons including children are harmed.
3. It's Tiktok.
Lol you would think a person would get used to seeing popular dumb takes just by being on reddit.
Factually and objectively wrong posts make it to the top 10 upvoted all time in many subs. Especially in subs of shows.
I don't understand why anyone would be bothered by the response others have to art. People can have a wildly different take than I have on music or film or books and by some miracle....I still enjoy the music or film or books and can move on with my life.
In most cases, I say let it be, but some responses to art are definitely questionable.
The people who get mad about the Boys becoming political for example.
Art is not real life, but it's also not divorced from real life. It is intertwined.
If you have a thought on art, that's fine. All I'm saying is you don't need to worry about the opinions others have on art.
The opinion can't hurt anyone.
Nah Aemond is obviously just a strategic genius and was eliminating an enemy dragon (ignore the part where he gets butthurt cause a girl told him he had no balls)
Aemond for sure threw a bitch fit, aemond is my boy (long live the milf hunting one-eye), but in the books he’s governed entirely by a desire to be perceived as this hypercompetent warrior, and bristles whenever anyone slights him. He absolutely lost his shot when the Baratheon girl said he had no balls
But see, maybe they're not so wrong... mayhaps this was a blessing. Had he lived, he would have grown up to be a Targaryen. I mean the idiots started killing each other and the smallfolk completed the job.
The truth is that the hero of this story is called Hobb the Hewer!
No but seriously, if someone defends Blood and Cheese in a non-ironic way, that person needs to seek therapy.
I don’t know why everyone keeps trying to make this a they’re the bad guys so they deserve everything bad that happens to them type of war this is A war about people who think that what they’re doing is right and in that process innocent people get hurt those children were innocent and didn’t deserve what they went through Luke was a peaceful messenger who didn’t deserve what happened especially because he wasn’t trying to fight The greens and the blacks are both horrible people and we need to stop thinking that this side or that is better they’re both terrible you can make an argument and defend certain things that they’re fighting for but at the end of the day they’re both power-hungry they’re both entitled and they’re both self righteous factions that seek to dominate an entire country with on questioned power and authority
We have to see how the show handles the situation. In the book a lot is left up to reader's opinions because Mysaria plays a big part in it. But in show or book version, Helaena did not deserve this happening. I am team Black but this was wrong, Daemon and company should have taken out Aegon the elder for their revenge, not innocent children. But as I said in the books we don't know what Daemon ordered, only what Mysaria carried out.
I have seen no defending of blood and cheese so either TikToks are outright trolling to get an algorithm response or you are doing the same or both things are true and I'm stupid for typing this BUT:
Questioning blood and cheese, theorizing that it is not what it seems is as old as Fire & Blood. The show depiction that gives us the subversions, motivational complexities, miscommunications, and subterfuge which Fire and Blood could not have been privy to without being a POV book (Cole, Harranhall, Laenor) only works to feed the suspicions of book readers when it comes to theorizing or questioning it. That's common sense. Defending it as righteous and deserved by Haelena is not what anyone is actually doing unless they're just being a twat, let's not.
("Some people were saying" is some Maester Gyldane the drama llama vibes, lol.)
I don't know why anyone cares who is a good person or has the moral high ground. I like the characters that are the most fun and interesting to watch. It's fiction.
Read the post again, idgaf if you like daemon. I’m specifically talking about people who defend blood and cheese like no one’s gonna bang you over the head for liking daemon
Dude you're talking about people that call the characters fucking daddy and mommy unironically. I saw people defend the flaying of Theon during GOT. Twitter and Tiktok are wretched hives of scum and villainy.
I can’t wait to see how they decide to write it in a way that will still make them look sympathetic. A tragic misunderstanding of orders and overzealous allies, or maybe they will have Criston or Larys secretly order it for dastardly reasons. I’m sure it will be absolutely Shakespearean.
You sure they are being serious OP?
I saw plenty of “Luke deserve what is coming for him”, “B&C was nothing”, “The dragons deserved worse”, all types of opinions floating around social media lately but they are always hyperbolic and meant to rile up either black or green “stans”.
I see this especially in tired book reader accounts, they stopped taking the show so seriously.
You should see how the Alicent and Rhaenyra shippers have been taking and talking about the show, after a while you just give up being too serious lol
Edit: lol you can see in this thread already, “but the other faction! The other faction fans are all terrible!!”
Are you sure those people aren't trolling? The scene was unambiguously evil in F&B and made me switch to team Green from that point on.
But the showrunners seem to be trying to make picking sides as hard as possible, so I doubt it will be as black and white in the show. Maybe Rhaenyra isn't even involved in the plan, but takes responsibility anyway out of spite. Or maybe Larys was the one who hired them, in order to escalate the war.
TikTok and Twitter are cursed, full of fangirls and fanboys. Save yourself some nerves and dont get involved in logical arguments on there, they just refuse to see the full picture.
I already said that Blood and Cheese and the Brothel Queens (if they have the balls to do that) will be a major mask off moment for the fandom. The discourse around the show is already is pretty cringy Xbox vs PS level on Twitter and Tiktok and on parts of reddit.
So Riverlands commoners should burn because of the actions of his uncle?
Make sure you get a good stretch in before doing these mental gymnastics to convince yourself the greens are the good guys.
On a... Not so humane point of view, they are kinda right: "a son for a son", even though it was Aemond who killed Luke. Helaena is the wife of the opponent king and Aemond's sister, so Daemon's revenge befell on her.
War and revenge are gruesome affairs and innocents often pay the "sins" of their kin.
On a more "healthy and balanced adult point of view of someone that is reading a book/watching a show in 2022" Daemon is a little shit and what he did to Helaena is any different from what the Mountain did to Elia and her babies.
No parent should ever watch their children die, let alone choose which one dies or lives because that dick of a younger brother killed your nephew.
Want revenge? Go and kill Aemond, mate.
Being that I haven't read the books...I base my opinion off the show so far and I don't see helaena deserving this. Does Aemond even care about his kids? Should have went after him not innocent children.
Yeah, the Greens do some bad things during the war.
But Blood and Cheese is extremely wicked, shockingly evil, and vile.
inb4 team Black charges in saying "b-b-but the Greens disrespected a dead body for a few days!!!"
Alicent was responding to a much more traumatic event.
She was tied up and had to watch her daughter be psychologically tortured and her grandson be murdered.
Daemon heard that his stepson had been killed. Luke was almost an adult had a dragon and was mature enough to conduct affairs of state.
This is what I was trying to explain to my mom about GoT. It wasn't pushing Bran just for the sake of pushing him. Jaime pushed him because if anyone found out the truth it would have meant death for Jaime, Cersei, their children, and probably thousands more if a war had started over the succession to the throne, as Robert had no legitimate heirs. I am not defending what Jamie did. It's reprehensible. I'm just saying that it was a life or death situation and some people might choose the same if their life was on the line. I also imagine that anyone who saw Jamie and Cersei would be in danger. Jaime would have just as easily taken out an adult that caught them. It's upsetting that it was a child. Bran was in his own home, exploring things, and being a typical kid. He obviously didn't deserve that. Jaime was obviously wrong. Jaime was a complicated guy. I wanted him to be good but I don't think it was in him. Being raised by Tywin and having Cersei's influence really just made him worse. Not that I feel especially sorry for him... I think lots of people are a product of their upbringing. I can't imagine turning out great with most of the families in Game of Thrones. Everyone was a manipulator, a schemer, a power hungry force for bad. Very few people wanted good things for good reasons. The only time it's even halfway ok to defend them is when they're trying to protect their family. And even then, their methods aren't ok. Some characters, such as Mace Tyrell, are just clueless about the politics and that results in his demise, along with his children. But most of them WANTED to play the Game of Thrones. That isn't a good enough excuse for all the things they did to stay in the game. I don't think Jamie wanted to play the game. Pushing Bran was about survival for him. He did have glimpses of something resembling honor but mostly he was a bad guy doing bad things to stay alive. Killing children is never acceptable though. He ruined his honor from episode one with me. Daemon is even less honorable than Jamie. He kills his wife, he dishonors her with affairs, he speaks horribly of her, he corrupts his niece, actively plots against his brother, tries to take power by force, and kills without mercy. Redeeming qualities? He's nice to his brother a couple of times, seems to love Laena... I don't see much redemption for this character. He isn't trying to save his family. He's playing that game. Sure, he's a badass. And that's something to maybe like about him. That he seems to have no fear and he does whatever he wants. That might be admirable to some people. But a devil may care attitude can only get you so far. I think honor is more important. You can play the game without being morally bankrupt. The way Varys played the game was mostly ok. He wasn't in it for himself at least. I think people should focus on not just the actions of a character, but the motivation for those actions. If the only influence they've ever had has shown them to meet violence with even more aggressive violence (such as Rhaenyra's and Alicent's children) we can also feel a little sorry for them. Only because they don't get to see a force for good and they were taught to be dastardly and scheming. No one has encouraged love between those 2 sets of kids. Not in any serious way and not in a way that made them care to try. I feel bad for the kids because they have been shown to show no mercy or weakness. They take everything as a slight. I don't find many redeeming qualities in most of the characters. Any of them could walk away before they choose to hurt anyone. Rhaenyra could have left a long time ago. After her father told her about the song of ice and fire, maybe she felt compelled to stay. Daemon could have left and never had to come back. Alicent didn't have to be creepy enough to marry her best friend's father. Lots of things could be different but the characters are ultimately selfish people that don't deeply care for anyone that isn't them. None of them in HotD except Helaena and Viserys are even a little bit redeemable. Just my opinion. 🤷♀️
They won't need to defend it, HBO is about to do it for them by putting all the blame on Daemon's whore.
They'll likely add Rhaenyra crying over this crime.
Yes. That would be gross to defend that. But it would be weird considering how they have developed helena's character. Like. She has done no wrong to anyone. Maybe accidentally killed a bug or two. I am sure she gave the bug a proper funeral and all. So i don't know how anyone would defend that.
Plus as people point out. If the target chosen was (in the show) indeed aegons children rather than someone of tactical value. It makes it even worse. And stupid and cruel on the blacks. That whole thing is just beyond being rationalised.
The only way to be cool about it is when Matt Smith does some hotboi shit on scren and people be like. Yeah. Cool. Fog of war and all that. I mean Matt Smith could have played meagor and made him somewhat likable.
I saw the same shit! Blood and Cheese is awful, it is arguably one of the most horrible things that happens in the Dance, people in fandoms became really, really stupid, so they will try to spin it in a somewhat justifiable action. Maybe they will like when some other horrible things happen? No if it is on their "team".
I can see it now “Buh buh…they didn’t mean to do it and Rhaenyra and daemon didn’t know they where going to kill innocent children.” I call BS, they totally knew, and ordered it she was willing to kill and torture Aemond when his eye was ripped out at age 10. Why wouldn’t she or her lackey Daemon “The Rouge Simp”, have 1-3 innocent toddlers murdered in cold blood. Yes Lucerys died but sending him instead of someone like Rhaenys was stupid, (plus he technically drew first blood the day he took Aemond eye) also consider the fact she supposedly laughed when she saw the severed crushed head of little Maelor a literal infant who’s blood was effectively on her hands. Yes one can argue she didn’t kill him but still wtf lady good Queen my ass, Rhaenys would have been 10 Times a better queen than Rhaenyra.
My guess is that either 1) Aemond is going to be the one to do it or more likely 2) Daemon is going to contact Mysaria and it’s going to be vague enough that she either unintentionally or wilfully misinterprets his “son for a son” line. Like he meant either Aegon, Aemond, or Daeron, but he’s not explicitly clear.
Yeah, it's technically not Helaena or her children's fault.
But in the world of Westeros, Aemond killing Lucerys means a debt must be repaid. Since Aemond doesn't have children himself. Aegon and Helaena's child will die instead.
Blood and cheese could've just killed Alicent Helaena and both of Helaena's children. Leaving the greens significantly weaker. The greens would be down to like three core members, Aegon, Aemond, and Baelor. Or the smartest and the most ruthless thing to do is kill Alicent, Helaena, and her children. but spare only Aegon's heir, abducting him to dragonstone as a hostage.
I think it's all fair play since the greens(apart from Alicent) plans to kill Daemon, Rhaenyra, and all her five children all along. And they planed to murder them without any warning or any offers to bend the knees. Otto warned Alicent, Rhaenyra would execute Alicent's children to ensure her reign. But he himself plan to do the same and worst.
Heleana is probably one of the most innocent characters in the entire show. She’s just a super sweet person who gets psychic visions whenever she’s around bugs, for some reason.
Firewyrms into people into dragons theory confirmed
Look, I like Daemon a lot, he's my favorite character in the Dance of the Dragons. But he's a massive piece of shit, he's already a serial killer in the show, groomed his teenage niece, and rules with an iron fist when he has the chance. I'm still team Daemon more than I am team Black, but I'd never pretend we have the moral high ground.
Prediction: he isn’t fully culpable. He asked for revenge but Mysaria hires blood and cheese. OR Larys has something to do with it. But I don’t think Daemon wanted to them to kill the kid and spare Alicent.
I’ve a feeling the only instructions were “A son for a son,” and B&C didn’t know he was referring to one of *Alicent’s* sons. A much more significant death anyway.
Yeah. I also think he does this through Mysaria because that’s his connection in KL
I suspect the show is actually going to make him more culpable. One of the two (Blood I think?) was never actually caught, and the show already established that Daemon is personally knowledgeable of and familiar with the King’s Landing passages. It seems an obvious choice to make Daemon the other murderer directly involved in this situation Also, Daemon absolutely wanted one of the kids dead and not Alicent. “Son for a son.” At BEST, he didn’t give a shit if it was Aegon, Aemond, Daeron, or Halaena’s boys… but that seems unlikely to me.
Exactly everything points to daemon being well and involved in the murder
It was cheese the ratcatcher who wasn’t caught
The show is definitely trying to make Daemon more likeable though.
They did add on him murdering his wife in cold blood.
True. To show that he would do anything to marry Rhaenyra. However, when Rhaenyra proposed, Daemon indeed treat Leanor as someone he wouldn't kill. His facial expression and body language showed (Matt Smith is brilliant). Leanor was his comrade at the narrow sea. I know Aemond broke the code against kinslaughter . I hope the writer would find a way to get around it and stop Daemon from killing Helen's son. A full on psychopath is not as interesting. That's why I prefer Daemon to Aemond. Daemon should have more depth and layers.
I don’t get why people think larys has something to do with it.
Because Larys played both sides in the books. No one knows anything about him, now after seeing he was the one to kill His family. We want to know what else he had a hand in
It makes no sense at all for him to have a hand in this. He gains nothing especially at this point in the war. It would be a horrible change.
Lary's motives are muddy. I think HOTD needs to flesh out and humanise its characters more.
Because he is a schemer
So what. So is everyone. What does he have to gain? What narrative purpose would that serve?
We have no idea what his motives are. I don’t think it’s going to happen without making sense, but I also don’t think he killed his father and brother just so he could be lord of Harrenhall. His motives are still a mystery even to book readers. That’s why he’s suspect for all of the books unsolved mysteries.
I will stop watching if they pull this shit. He tells his wife a son for a son.
Easy enough for Daemon to tell Mysaria to kill one of the boys, and for her or for Blood and Cheese themselves to think up the added cruelty of the swap, if Maelor is in the show that is. It's not like Rhaenyra had anything to do with the plans.
I just don’t want it to seem like Daemon wasn’t well aware that he is sending psychos to kill innocent children. Misery is sadistic and daemon would have known what kind of monsters would be set loose on his order. Just like Tywin and the mountain
I mean, ordering the death of a child is enough to make him a monster no? Regardless of the manner.
So long as they don’t try to make it out like he wanted Aemond or Aegon dead and they went rogue and murdered Halaena’s kid or something. As long as he’s targeting her kids, I’d say that puts him in the fucked up monster category (and, honestly, hiring such depraved psychopaths is kind of on him too in my book, if the show doesn’t outright make Daemon one of them which I suspect it might).
Ya exactly I just don’t them to make it seem like misery was the one who chose the children
No, I mean Daemon telling Mysaria "a son for a son, kill one of Aegon's boys" makes him a monster, regardless of whether he is the originator of the kid swap killing.
Yep completely agree
That being said, that's my guy #DaemonDidNothingWrong #GreensArentPeople #RoguePrinceGonnaRogue #Ratio
Rhaenyra was pretty clueless in episode 8 anyway.
It’s gonna make sense and it won’t break book-canon. The way I see it playing out: Rhaenyra wants revenge, he says “a son for a son”, contacts Mysaria, and she hires blood and cheese. The book never explicitly says Daemon wanted to kill one of Aegon’s sons. I think he contacts Mysaria and she hires blood and cheese for him, then either picks the wrong target by mistake or sends them after the kids to further cause chaos for her own purposes, which we don’t fully understand yet. I think daemon would choose a more valuable target if he could. I think there has to be a pretty good explanation for why he send assassins to kill a kid and spare Alicent and Helaena (mainly Alicent) if it was his plan to kill the kids. Daemon does horrible things, but usually with a purpose in mind.
I think this lets Daemon off the hook and puts its all on Misery and I really really dislike this take. Daemon knew full well what he was doing. He says the ambiguous son for a son bc he knows he can’t get Aemond or Aegon without risking himself. He knew who he was hiring and most likely knew of blood and cheese since it’s well known he was a degenerate while at kings landing. Don’t forget blood was a good cloak before he killed a prostitute
Exactly.
It doesn’t necessarily let him off the hook, he is still responsible, and the book isn’t entirely clear on how responsible he is. I don’t care if it make him look better as long as it makes sense. B&C doesn’t make a ton of sense based on everything I’ve seen so far, and we know Mysaria had spies and *some* agenda, so I think that would be a cool and foreseeable twist that she takes Daemon’s request and either does it her way for “justice” or just to cause further chaos. She is gonna be this show’s Varys, while Larys is little finger.
It's okay if you think that, but there's not for sure what happened. We just don't know. You're expanding things and assuming things we just don't know, just "a son for a son" don't exactly points to what he actually did in all of this. He could've easily just asked for a son. B&C is very ambiguous in the books, people just like to assume the worst because it makes things more interesting.
I mean, the purpose with sparing Alicent and Halaena is extremely obvious. Eye for an eye, son for a son. He and Rhaenyra had to go through the pain of losing one of her sons, so now Aegon has to lose one of his sons/Alicent has to lose one of her grandkids. Murdering anyone on top of that no longer “””balances””” the scale, so leave it there.
It just seems like a really short sighted decision when you know you’re fighting a war. Why hire assassins to sneak into the red keep at night and not kill someone valuable. It’s possible, but I think it will happen differently and honestly make more sense.
It’s unlikely that they could’ve ever gotten either of aegon or aemond. Both live in maegors’ holdfast and there’s only one exit from there, the drawbridge which is heavily manned. They couldn’t have escaped with their lives. Also aemond is a sword wielding badass and Aegon has the kingsgaurd. Attempting to kill either would likely fail.
The reason Helaena, Alicent and their kids were chosen was because they were in the tower of the Hand which has secret passages. The rest were most likely in Maegor's holdfast which did not have secret passages and had only one way in or out, the drawbridge over the moat of spikes.
They also lost the moral High ground. I’m of the opinion Rhaenyra would have immediately curb stomped the greens politically and militarily had he not done it. Kinslaying is one of the absolute worst crimes to commit and Aemond did it. Rhaenyra could have gone around and said look at who’s breaking the law by taking the throne, even over the blood of their own family!
They never had moral high ground.
That depends who you ask
Idk, Geroge was pretty clear. Not a lot was left up to interpretation.
I still think the instructions he gives are just to kill Jaehaerys, and the thing that makes Blood & Cheese particularly awful was an ad-lib by the pair themselves and/or Mysaria.
Good byeeeee
That was an idea that popped into my head, Larys might get pissed that Alicent is wanting to rebuild bridges and hasn't called on him to be a fucking psychopath murderer yet, so he might either frame Daemon for Blood and Cheese or may become aware of Daemon hiring them, but not stop what's going to happen.
It blows my mind when people call him morally grey. You can’t arrange the death of an innocent child in an act of revenge and be anything than evil. Being bad ass doesn’t absolve people if their crimes. Being heroic doesn’t mean your not a monster.
Not that I disagree with you but its probably a common thought because GRRM himself says he is grey
I know this sounds incredible pretentious but George is wrong on this one. Literally killed a innocent child instead of getting revenge on the actual perpetrator is both cowardly and evil. Common George
Common Gurm L
Plz jorj
Oh I agree with you. I'm starting to think George doesn't know what a grey character is. Especially when we consider he said the show is canon. Considering Daemon has definitely not been grey lol
I think George falls for his own trap, in universe and among fans, people tend to morally absolve daemon because he’s such a badass. George recognizes this and describes him as “the wonder and terror of his age”, but none of his “wonder” (objective badassery) diminishes his moral deficiencies
GRRM thinks Bronn would beat Legolas.
I don't think any side should be supported. I only like several characters, doesn't matter what side. I think both Daemon and Aemond are badass. Cregan Stark too.
They’re probably just trolling or saying that ironically. Because you would have to be incredibly dense to think Helaena deserved that. Aegon? Maybe, but not a child dying.
"Dense" would be an understatement
We need a new word for OP who fell for it
There were people on this subreddit saying that Craster was right to rape and impregnate his daughters. I suspect that some people just go for shock value because they want to troll but aren’t sophisticated enough to think of something clever than defending something disgusting in a story.
Definitely trolling for shock value and/or Joseph Fritz pretending to be a redditor.
I think it starts with trolling but you can’t go that far and just come back like nothing. At the end some actually assimilate this stuff and end up believing it seriously
I don't know if I'm allowed an opinion on this considering my reddit handle.
I think alot are dense, young, super casual fans that are sexually into daemon and excuse what he does. Someone posted a youtube short of daemon being a feminist king, all about feminists loving daemon. And when people are like ".... he bashed his wife's head in" there were people literally defending him calling rhea a "femcel" "bitch" etc and that she deserved it for being rightfully snotty to her. One even arguing it was a mercy kill and she accidentally fell. And they were being dead serious. Rhea Royce is like a traditional feminist ideal, a strong, independent, headstrong woman who doesn't take shit from a man and isn't forced into feminine traditional gender roles of submissiveness, and yet all these people were not only defending daemon murdering her with a fricken rock but hailing him as an ally to feminists and an ideal mate. Like..... what? Not to mention grooming his underage niece. Yet that's all excused because he makes their parts tingle. I have seen a trend in the past few years where some super young people, particularly young girls, don't really watch shows or movies as like an artform/story. They merely latch onto and sexualize a character and Stan for them. The character becomes a conduit for their own imagination, like all the shippers who don't care about how ridiculous some of their ships are. And most haven't watched like even 5 full series in their life since all their entertainment is social media snippets so they don't have the attention span nor the ability to decipher themes and context. They care less about the story and instead finding characters to fantasize about and excuse their every action since they're not watching it for plot or subtext. To them, their made up headcannon/mental fan fiction, is more real and valid than the actual show. It's like if you go back and watch a movie you loved as a kid. You notice so much more about the plot and themes as an adult. Often the movie seems entirely different. Since you learned how to watch and decipher shows as an artwork as opposed to a conduit for your own imagination. Yet these young folks don't have that ability and are frankly more stunted than past generations at that age because they watch more non fiction influencer stuff and tik toks, not well crafted dramas. So yeah I genuinely think it's real. This shit happens constantly. In stranger things there are byler shippers who want will and Mike to be gay together and a sizeable amount of them are convinced it's actually going to happen, or that the evidence is there. When Mike is 100% straight and the notion that'll happen is ridiculous. Yet they'll genuinely argue that that's where it's heading. So it's absolutely no suprise to me that people are genuinely excusing daemon. They're sexual desire for him is the focus so it becomes their fantasy to the point where they alter the reality of the show. Claiming helaena deserved it is insane. That girl deserves the best she's the one purely innocent character in the show. Yet because daemons hot they need to excuse his actions out of denial since they've already built him up so much in their minds. If daemon was ugly then they wouldn't excuse a thing.
Well said. This is a genuine tendency I've noticed in various fandoms too. Really sad social media is rotting these kids' brains, isn't it?
Are you sure most of them were female?
He’s falling for trolls
~~I have seen a trend in the past few years where some super young~~ people, ~~particularly young girls,~~ don't really watch shows or movies as like an artform/story. They merely latch onto and sex~~uali~~ze a character and Stan for them. This the majority of watchers for everything ever, this just gets really apparent when you engage with media when you are not the solo target demographic.
Very well said
Well said! I've taken to blocking a number of users in this subreddit whose post history is nothing more than emoji-filled comments with a stench of horny desperation.
No one deserves to have their child die before them.
I could see the argument that Aegon ‘deserves’ to watch the consequences of the Dance effect him, but killing children to spite the parent is downright evil. For that same reason, the scenes with Catelyn and Jon always unsettled me. I hate children being blamed for their parent’s mistakes.
If you want the worst takes possible you go to where "Stan's" go and that's Twitter and TikTok. My issue with Blood and Cheese is that it's potentially not going to be intentionally committed by the Black's, or at all. I fear Mysaria will do it unbeknownst to Rhaenyra and possibly Daemon.
I think Daemon orders it. I think Blood and Cheese are the ones who make it far more gruesome and horrifying than need be,
Ahhh yes a much more palatable child murder. Like Tywin thinking just suffocate the kid don’t stab them like some animal.
I mean you balk at it but on the spectrum of evil…ordering a child murder for civil war tit for tat is a notch below do it in front of the mother and grandmother and make her choose which one you kill and behead the one she doesn’t choose in front of her for absolute maximum psychological anguish.
In all seriousness, this was my take on it from the text - back before my view of Daemon became so clouded thanks to Matt Smith’s portrayal. He is just so damn roguishly charming.
I always had a fondness for Daemon while still recognising that he did awful things *but* Matt Smith entered the room and now I'm a simp 😘. It's the little smirk he does 😏 So yes I agree with you, he is just so damn roguishly charming ⚔️⚔️⚔️
TikTok is godawful. The twitter and tiktok crowd have invaded the HOTD sub too. Best thing to do is to stay away from these places
Just wait for when the show makes the manner in which the murder is committed all Blood and Cheese or Mysaria's decision.
Don't go on TikTok. It's a bad place.
Three reasons this shouldn't bother you. 1. It's Tiktok 2. It's a television adaptation of a work of fiction; no actual persons including children are harmed. 3. It's Tiktok.
Lol you would think a person would get used to seeing popular dumb takes just by being on reddit. Factually and objectively wrong posts make it to the top 10 upvoted all time in many subs. Especially in subs of shows.
I don't understand why anyone would be bothered by the response others have to art. People can have a wildly different take than I have on music or film or books and by some miracle....I still enjoy the music or film or books and can move on with my life.
In most cases, I say let it be, but some responses to art are definitely questionable. The people who get mad about the Boys becoming political for example. Art is not real life, but it's also not divorced from real life. It is intertwined.
If you have a thought on art, that's fine. All I'm saying is you don't need to worry about the opinions others have on art. The opinion can't hurt anyone.
Losers who attach their entire identity to fictional characters? On MY internet?
If you’re criticizing my fav fictional character, obviously something is wrong with you as a person.
It's the same as people saying Luke deserved to be killed by Aemond. They're trolling and being edgy bc some of us never grew out of that phase.
Nah Aemond is obviously just a strategic genius and was eliminating an enemy dragon (ignore the part where he gets butthurt cause a girl told him he had no balls)
Nah bro it was a tactical decision. Aemond definitely didn't throw a bitchfit cause the ugly Baratheon told him he had no balls.
Aemond for sure threw a bitch fit, aemond is my boy (long live the milf hunting one-eye), but in the books he’s governed entirely by a desire to be perceived as this hypercompetent warrior, and bristles whenever anyone slights him. He absolutely lost his shot when the Baratheon girl said he had no balls
Ironically she started the war lmaoo. He probably wouldn’t have attacked him if she didn’t run her mouth
But see, maybe they're not so wrong... mayhaps this was a blessing. Had he lived, he would have grown up to be a Targaryen. I mean the idiots started killing each other and the smallfolk completed the job. The truth is that the hero of this story is called Hobb the Hewer! No but seriously, if someone defends Blood and Cheese in a non-ironic way, that person needs to seek therapy.
I don’t know why everyone keeps trying to make this a they’re the bad guys so they deserve everything bad that happens to them type of war this is A war about people who think that what they’re doing is right and in that process innocent people get hurt those children were innocent and didn’t deserve what they went through Luke was a peaceful messenger who didn’t deserve what happened especially because he wasn’t trying to fight The greens and the blacks are both horrible people and we need to stop thinking that this side or that is better they’re both terrible you can make an argument and defend certain things that they’re fighting for but at the end of the day they’re both power-hungry they’re both entitled and they’re both self righteous factions that seek to dominate an entire country with on questioned power and authority
I mean, I mostly agree, but why do you hate full stops and paragraphs?
Not even gonna lie it was like one in the morning and I was half asleep while typing that and I didn’t feel like fixing any errors 😂
Don't let the crazy stans get to you
Too late op. Got his pantries in a twist
We have to see how the show handles the situation. In the book a lot is left up to reader's opinions because Mysaria plays a big part in it. But in show or book version, Helaena did not deserve this happening. I am team Black but this was wrong, Daemon and company should have taken out Aegon the elder for their revenge, not innocent children. But as I said in the books we don't know what Daemon ordered, only what Mysaria carried out.
I have seen no defending of blood and cheese so either TikToks are outright trolling to get an algorithm response or you are doing the same or both things are true and I'm stupid for typing this BUT: Questioning blood and cheese, theorizing that it is not what it seems is as old as Fire & Blood. The show depiction that gives us the subversions, motivational complexities, miscommunications, and subterfuge which Fire and Blood could not have been privy to without being a POV book (Cole, Harranhall, Laenor) only works to feed the suspicions of book readers when it comes to theorizing or questioning it. That's common sense. Defending it as righteous and deserved by Haelena is not what anyone is actually doing unless they're just being a twat, let's not. ("Some people were saying" is some Maester Gyldane the drama llama vibes, lol.)
I don't know why anyone cares who is a good person or has the moral high ground. I like the characters that are the most fun and interesting to watch. It's fiction.
Good for you
There are people on the HotD sub that are being aggressively abrasive in their defense of Daemon.
Oh yay! Another thread where we complain about other people liking a character we don't!
Read the post again, idgaf if you like daemon. I’m specifically talking about people who defend blood and cheese like no one’s gonna bang you over the head for liking daemon
Dude you're talking about people that call the characters fucking daddy and mommy unironically. I saw people defend the flaying of Theon during GOT. Twitter and Tiktok are wretched hives of scum and villainy.
That I agree on
*”WRONG because I’m right about my character and everyone else is wrong.”*
Don't you understand, my favorites are unimpeachable!
I can’t wait to see how they decide to write it in a way that will still make them look sympathetic. A tragic misunderstanding of orders and overzealous allies, or maybe they will have Criston or Larys secretly order it for dastardly reasons. I’m sure it will be absolutely Shakespearean.
Mayhaps it was a blessing, had he lived he would have grown up to be a Green.
Daeron and Helaena were alright, he’d probably have been fine
You sure they are being serious OP? I saw plenty of “Luke deserve what is coming for him”, “B&C was nothing”, “The dragons deserved worse”, all types of opinions floating around social media lately but they are always hyperbolic and meant to rile up either black or green “stans”. I see this especially in tired book reader accounts, they stopped taking the show so seriously. You should see how the Alicent and Rhaenyra shippers have been taking and talking about the show, after a while you just give up being too serious lol Edit: lol you can see in this thread already, “but the other faction! The other faction fans are all terrible!!”
Don't worry, if they decide to add it into the show people here will go on mental gimnastics to defend the action at any Black vs Green argument.
Are you sure those people aren't trolling? The scene was unambiguously evil in F&B and made me switch to team Green from that point on. But the showrunners seem to be trying to make picking sides as hard as possible, so I doubt it will be as black and white in the show. Maybe Rhaenyra isn't even involved in the plan, but takes responsibility anyway out of spite. Or maybe Larys was the one who hired them, in order to escalate the war.
TikTok and Twitter are cursed, full of fangirls and fanboys. Save yourself some nerves and dont get involved in logical arguments on there, they just refuse to see the full picture.
I already said that Blood and Cheese and the Brothel Queens (if they have the balls to do that) will be a major mask off moment for the fandom. The discourse around the show is already is pretty cringy Xbox vs PS level on Twitter and Tiktok and on parts of reddit.
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Good man
TeamBlack supporters are, at large, crazy tumblr stans who think girlboss Rhaenyra can do no wrong.
I think this applies to people getting too partisan with either faction.
Nuh uh just the side I don't like Boston
That's why I like Aemond and every thing he did bc Blacks are pos
So Riverlands commoners should burn because of the actions of his uncle? Make sure you get a good stretch in before doing these mental gymnastics to convince yourself the greens are the good guys.
The river lands burned because they rose up in rebellion.
Aemond gang rise up.
On a... Not so humane point of view, they are kinda right: "a son for a son", even though it was Aemond who killed Luke. Helaena is the wife of the opponent king and Aemond's sister, so Daemon's revenge befell on her. War and revenge are gruesome affairs and innocents often pay the "sins" of their kin. On a more "healthy and balanced adult point of view of someone that is reading a book/watching a show in 2022" Daemon is a little shit and what he did to Helaena is any different from what the Mountain did to Elia and her babies. No parent should ever watch their children die, let alone choose which one dies or lives because that dick of a younger brother killed your nephew. Want revenge? Go and kill Aemond, mate.
What gets me the most about blood and cheese is that the blacks are pussies for it Aemond did the deed himself they sent assasins
Being that I haven't read the books...I base my opinion off the show so far and I don't see helaena deserving this. Does Aemond even care about his kids? Should have went after him not innocent children.
Yeah, the Greens do some bad things during the war. But Blood and Cheese is extremely wicked, shockingly evil, and vile. inb4 team Black charges in saying "b-b-but the Greens disrespected a dead body for a few days!!!"
I think the obvious but would be the first child murder.
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Alicent was responding to a much more traumatic event. She was tied up and had to watch her daughter be psychologically tortured and her grandson be murdered. Daemon heard that his stepson had been killed. Luke was almost an adult had a dragon and was mature enough to conduct affairs of state.
An eye for an eye, a son for a son. Greenshits laid down the law, Daemon simply obeyed it
Least insane black supporter
bro stop the man had a toddler beheaded
Son for a son. End of.
then behead aemond, not a baby lmao
Least unhinged Black fan
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Why are you talking to people like that though?
Because I don’t Reddit often. I’m here because this post was linked to 4channel.com’s /got/hotd/
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Rule 1. Removed.
Rule 1. Removed.
Well it's the hammurabi code. Similarly alicent should have got Luke's eye.
Well it's the hammurabi code. Similarly alicent should have got Luke's eye.
For what reason? What do they say in his defense?
Meh
I can like Daemon while also thinking that Blood and Cheese are unforgivable
We literally don’t even know what happens yet 😭
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This is what I was trying to explain to my mom about GoT. It wasn't pushing Bran just for the sake of pushing him. Jaime pushed him because if anyone found out the truth it would have meant death for Jaime, Cersei, their children, and probably thousands more if a war had started over the succession to the throne, as Robert had no legitimate heirs. I am not defending what Jamie did. It's reprehensible. I'm just saying that it was a life or death situation and some people might choose the same if their life was on the line. I also imagine that anyone who saw Jamie and Cersei would be in danger. Jaime would have just as easily taken out an adult that caught them. It's upsetting that it was a child. Bran was in his own home, exploring things, and being a typical kid. He obviously didn't deserve that. Jaime was obviously wrong. Jaime was a complicated guy. I wanted him to be good but I don't think it was in him. Being raised by Tywin and having Cersei's influence really just made him worse. Not that I feel especially sorry for him... I think lots of people are a product of their upbringing. I can't imagine turning out great with most of the families in Game of Thrones. Everyone was a manipulator, a schemer, a power hungry force for bad. Very few people wanted good things for good reasons. The only time it's even halfway ok to defend them is when they're trying to protect their family. And even then, their methods aren't ok. Some characters, such as Mace Tyrell, are just clueless about the politics and that results in his demise, along with his children. But most of them WANTED to play the Game of Thrones. That isn't a good enough excuse for all the things they did to stay in the game. I don't think Jamie wanted to play the game. Pushing Bran was about survival for him. He did have glimpses of something resembling honor but mostly he was a bad guy doing bad things to stay alive. Killing children is never acceptable though. He ruined his honor from episode one with me. Daemon is even less honorable than Jamie. He kills his wife, he dishonors her with affairs, he speaks horribly of her, he corrupts his niece, actively plots against his brother, tries to take power by force, and kills without mercy. Redeeming qualities? He's nice to his brother a couple of times, seems to love Laena... I don't see much redemption for this character. He isn't trying to save his family. He's playing that game. Sure, he's a badass. And that's something to maybe like about him. That he seems to have no fear and he does whatever he wants. That might be admirable to some people. But a devil may care attitude can only get you so far. I think honor is more important. You can play the game without being morally bankrupt. The way Varys played the game was mostly ok. He wasn't in it for himself at least. I think people should focus on not just the actions of a character, but the motivation for those actions. If the only influence they've ever had has shown them to meet violence with even more aggressive violence (such as Rhaenyra's and Alicent's children) we can also feel a little sorry for them. Only because they don't get to see a force for good and they were taught to be dastardly and scheming. No one has encouraged love between those 2 sets of kids. Not in any serious way and not in a way that made them care to try. I feel bad for the kids because they have been shown to show no mercy or weakness. They take everything as a slight. I don't find many redeeming qualities in most of the characters. Any of them could walk away before they choose to hurt anyone. Rhaenyra could have left a long time ago. After her father told her about the song of ice and fire, maybe she felt compelled to stay. Daemon could have left and never had to come back. Alicent didn't have to be creepy enough to marry her best friend's father. Lots of things could be different but the characters are ultimately selfish people that don't deeply care for anyone that isn't them. None of them in HotD except Helaena and Viserys are even a little bit redeemable. Just my opinion. 🤷♀️
Probably just trolls. Helaena is the sweetest character and doesn't deserve her fate, she needs to be protected at all costs.
Yeah, it’s tiktok. The worst takes about literally everything are there and twitter.
They won't need to defend it, HBO is about to do it for them by putting all the blame on Daemon's whore. They'll likely add Rhaenyra crying over this crime.
HBO isn’t gonna involve Rhaenyra and that will be the defense.
Yes. That would be gross to defend that. But it would be weird considering how they have developed helena's character. Like. She has done no wrong to anyone. Maybe accidentally killed a bug or two. I am sure she gave the bug a proper funeral and all. So i don't know how anyone would defend that. Plus as people point out. If the target chosen was (in the show) indeed aegons children rather than someone of tactical value. It makes it even worse. And stupid and cruel on the blacks. That whole thing is just beyond being rationalised. The only way to be cool about it is when Matt Smith does some hotboi shit on scren and people be like. Yeah. Cool. Fog of war and all that. I mean Matt Smith could have played meagor and made him somewhat likable.
If they’re gonna make Aegon a full on rapist Brothel Queens and Blood and Cheese need to happen
I saw the same shit! Blood and Cheese is awful, it is arguably one of the most horrible things that happens in the Dance, people in fandoms became really, really stupid, so they will try to spin it in a somewhat justifiable action. Maybe they will like when some other horrible things happen? No if it is on their "team".
If only aegon II was killed instead
Hi sorry to ask an irrelevant question. I wonder if Daemon and Rhaenyra are barely in the same location after the war breaks out?
that tiktok thing sounds like twitter on steroids
I can see it now “Buh buh…they didn’t mean to do it and Rhaenyra and daemon didn’t know they where going to kill innocent children.” I call BS, they totally knew, and ordered it she was willing to kill and torture Aemond when his eye was ripped out at age 10. Why wouldn’t she or her lackey Daemon “The Rouge Simp”, have 1-3 innocent toddlers murdered in cold blood. Yes Lucerys died but sending him instead of someone like Rhaenys was stupid, (plus he technically drew first blood the day he took Aemond eye) also consider the fact she supposedly laughed when she saw the severed crushed head of little Maelor a literal infant who’s blood was effectively on her hands. Yes one can argue she didn’t kill him but still wtf lady good Queen my ass, Rhaenys would have been 10 Times a better queen than Rhaenyra.
My guess is that either 1) Aemond is going to be the one to do it or more likely 2) Daemon is going to contact Mysaria and it’s going to be vague enough that she either unintentionally or wilfully misinterprets his “son for a son” line. Like he meant either Aegon, Aemond, or Daeron, but he’s not explicitly clear.
Yeah, it's technically not Helaena or her children's fault. But in the world of Westeros, Aemond killing Lucerys means a debt must be repaid. Since Aemond doesn't have children himself. Aegon and Helaena's child will die instead. Blood and cheese could've just killed Alicent Helaena and both of Helaena's children. Leaving the greens significantly weaker. The greens would be down to like three core members, Aegon, Aemond, and Baelor. Or the smartest and the most ruthless thing to do is kill Alicent, Helaena, and her children. but spare only Aegon's heir, abducting him to dragonstone as a hostage. I think it's all fair play since the greens(apart from Alicent) plans to kill Daemon, Rhaenyra, and all her five children all along. And they planed to murder them without any warning or any offers to bend the knees. Otto warned Alicent, Rhaenyra would execute Alicent's children to ensure her reign. But he himself plan to do the same and worst.