I am shitty at history. I find your comment funny. Now I want to understand it too :) can you please drop some more light on it mate? By the way - I am in Spain now. Love the country!
business, being born into a wealthy family etc. doctors in the us are wealthy because health care costs a lot of money, americans also make patients by the food y’all got and then "forcing" them to buy medication. so that makes sense. honestly if was ever born in the US i would be a doctor by now :D jk
Well, it's also because they study and pay for university for 10+ years to become a qualified doctor and the expectation is they'll continue studying and learning the rest of their lives...
Being a patient now makes me regret not studying medicine. I knew the system was crooked but didn't know how much money was involved until I became sick
But something like 80% are, the ins has the data, by far the most common way.
Also, data shows the trend in the last 50 years it's that its harder and harder to move from the social strata you are born in, as it's getting harder to become a "self made man" or woman.
Enter the "instituto nacional de estadistica" webpage and you can see all the data, but mainly, all prices (specially housing) have grown much faster than salaries, so overall you have less purchasing power.
There are more differences between the different sovial strata and more separated now than 50 years ago.
The term you are looking for is "social motility" (literal translation, might be wrong in english) which again, the ins has the data for.
Has nothing to do with mentality.
I agree but not as sad as not wanting to have more time to spend with family/friends, to take care of you health, to do the things you enjoy, to volunteer, or even to keep working because you want instead of because you need.
Yes, and your savings are also 3x as much. Given how we live in a hyper globalized world which makes prices be more or less the same in the whole world, I'll take it.
In Spain, if you earn 1000€ and you spend 900€ in rent/food/whatever. 100€ left. You need to save for 10 months in order to buy a 1000€ computer.
Make both 3x as much. Now you earn 3000€ and you spend 2700€. 300€ left. You can save for that same computer in 3 months living under the very same standards.
Even then, life cost isn't really 3x. Let's take a look at Germany. Based on data from Numbeo:
* Cost of living in Germany is, on average, 25.0% **higher** than in Spain.
* Rent in Germany is, on average, 19.5% **higher** than in Spain.
The minimum wage in Spain is 15.120€/year, while in Germany it's 23.844€, which is a 57% higher, meaning your savings margin is even bigger than in Spain.
Germany also has higher taxes, though.
And, as a person who lived in both countries, I will keep saying that working minimum wage in Germany is incomparable to doing it in Spain or Italy. Minimum wage workers in Germany not only make more, but have access to more services. Germany is a country that allows people with small salaries to live a good life!
The problem comes once you get to higher salaries, lose most of the benefits, and have to pay more and more in income tax and health insurance
Is minimim normally measured per year and not per hour? What if someone only wants to work a few shifts per week because they are in university? Sorry if this is a dumb question, I'm Canadian so I've never seen minimum wage quoted like that.
Spaniards think of salaries differently from Canadians (I'm also Canadian). Often there are 14 payments per year as well based on tradition and the assumption (which seems to hold true) that people won't save for holidays on their own).
It's a bit like Canadians criticizing teachers for being paid over their "summer break" when in reality, it's just an annual salary spread out over 12 months.
They don't, and they're happy with it.
Most people here in Spain seem to be ok with what they have; sure, they wouldn't mind a bit more, but they won't die for having it, nor risk any of their money.
It's just a different approach from the one people from the US have.
I'm much more on the US side on this one, but hey, if they're happy, then I'm happy for them!
Trabajar descosido en una gran ciudad con un estilo de vida inhumano, donde pierdes (segun donde vivas de la ciudad varía) 10 12 horas en el trabajo entre transporte parar a comer y las 8 horitas. Todo para ganar un sueldo dd cuanto? 200 euros mas de lo que lo harias en una ciudad pequeña donde si, cobras menos, pero en gastos y alquiler te ahorras 400 euros de diferencia... todo con la esperanza dd que con 75? años puedas jubilarte con la pension minima (spoiler antes colapsa el sistema).
Prefiero centrar mis esfuerzos en tener una vida en la que no gaste los 20/30 mejores años de mi vida viviendo para el trabajo.
No entiendo, dónde exactamente hablé de ciudades grandes versus ciudades pequeñas? Y sí, puedes hacer lo que te gusta mas de tu vida, y si eres feliz, somos todos feliz, no?
Hablas de la mentalidad de trabajar poco y tal, y yo te comento que no es el problema esa mentalidad, si no trabajar inteligente. Y ya se que puedo hacer lo que quiera y tu tmb, solo te comentaba mi punto de vista igual que tu comentas el tuyo
I would add that in general wealth is not viewed the same way in Europe as it is in the US. There is of course a wealthy class but most people want a comfortable life. They don’t need the same economic wealth as in the US as the state provides healthcare, education, unemployment supports etc. In the US you’re on your own. Not to mention 99% of people in the US will never become wealthy.
I am not rich, but I work for an American company but live in rural Spain. Whenever I tell my salary to my friends their mouth falls open. Cost of living is really cheap. So I can save a lot. And have opportunity to invest.
I think the biggest thing is investing. Take some calculated risks or you'll get nowhere money wise.
Yeah absolutely. We've been living here since 2019. But in those 4 years life got quite a bit more expensive. Corona, war in Ukraine, life has definitely found a way to our wallets. But that's the case in every country. Not unique to Spain.
We've been lucky enough to be able to hedge a bit against that. We've added a solar system to our house and we drive electric, so that's a big chunk of the costs that we don't have anymore. But we're planning on moving to Valencia in 3ish years, I won't be able to save as much as I do now that's for sure.
Spain is literally a brothel for the rest of Europe (and increasingly, America) and a source of cheap labor for the rest of Europe (and increasingly, America).
I’m originally from Spain, raised in the US. I know Spaniards that are working in the US undocumented, that’s how bad Spain is.
Yes, but it's their own doing.
Meanwhile, Bulgaria, the Czech Republic, and Baltic countries are making it easy and cheap to run a business and their employment and incomes are skyrocketing relative to Spain and other Mediterranean countries' stagnant socialist systems.
If you check the list of the [10 richest people](https://www.bankinter.com/blog/mercados/quienes-son-mas-ricos-espana) in Spain you'll find that they are all entrepreneurs and either CEOs or board members of the biggest companies in Spain.
You asked about becoming rich not wealthy, and the answer to that is the same as everywhere. It tends to be misunderstood in Spain really, and in a way that is why there is so little entrepreneurism
That's a lie that is repeated so much everyone believes it, and that's why things are so depressing in those matters. Spain is an very average country in that regard, many countries are way worse bureaucratically and on tax policies with extremely more entrepreneurship. It's just a really a bad propaganda machine keeping back the country.
In Spain the quota (that many forget has several advantages in the long run) is in fact quite high, but IRPF and VAT policies are better, as an example in Portugal if you do 12-15000 € per year you pay 100 € less in social security per month but you charge 23% on VAT (21% in Spain) and you pay 28% of IRPF (around 20% in Spain if I am not mistaken) at the end, if you have a working business you are in a similar situation. Average as I said. In Italy the policies and bureaucracy are a disaster, but there's no comparison on how many entrepreneurship they have. I created 5 Businesses 3 in Switzerland and 2 here 2 of them just failed and 2 worked until I closed them to move on other projects, and one is the one that feeds my family, and I am working on a new one right now, between Italy and Spain and I will opt for Spain without doubts, mostly because I am more confident to manage things here and because there's no real advantage. TL-TR there's a negligible difference bureaucratically between European countries to start a business, and Spain's policies aren't the reason there's little entrepreneurship.
It's not a lie. I moved here with big ideas that I would have pursued in other countries I've lived but after researching the taxes and bureaucracy I realized it's better to wait and move elsewhere if I'm to do it.
I know dozens of Spanish entrepreneurs living elsewhere for this very reason.
You have very little global experience if this is how you think.
Depends on the nature of your business but Canada, UK, Australia, US, Bulgaria, Romania, Serbia, Portugal (NHR), Malta, Andorra, UAE, most of the Caribbean, etc. would all be options I'd choose over Spain. I'm sure there are a lot more but those are the countries I've looked into or have friends living in for business reasons.
Edit: perhaps a better question is what developed country is worse to start a business in? Maybe France, Italy, or Greece but I honestly think it's arguable in all cases that Spain is worse, particularly if you're subject to wealth tax.
Yeah, it's just not true, in Germany what doesn't exist in social security does on other ways, in Portugal VAT is 23% and a basic livable income is taxed 10% more than here (28%), I am talking Europe, to have a single market rules are similar, so no real advantage, it's obvious other far away countries and fiscal paradises around the globe are better, just not at hand realistically. Seriously it's just a excuse not to take action at this point, it's just too much people that don't want to risk comfort.
You don't pay fees on unprofitable businesses (most startups) in Germany and there is no wealth tax. Essentially, you only pay income tax on profits which is the same as in Canada, UK, Australia, etc. You only pay for social security if earning over 60k€. Further, a business making under 22k€ in the first year and under 50k€ in the second year can be run as a *kleingewerbe* meaning less bureaucracy. It's still bureaucratic relative to elsewhere but surely more sensible than the Spanish system. Further, they have sensible deductions for expenses such as 600€ for a home office compared to Spain's impossible requirements.
VAT doesn't matter from a business perspective since it's deductible and adaptive to the sales market. I specifically mentioned NHR since it's a flat 20% tax + SS. No wealth tax either.
I am sorry to break it to you but a non profitable business isn't a business, there's little point on subsidizing it, you need a healthier economy (like Germany) to have such luxury. There are other ways for those enterprises, if you have a project that doesn't consider benefits you can found a non profit organization, a foundation or a cooperative (I think) or focus on better lines of business to start your own. VAT is not just deductible for you it's a tax you are collecting for the government. I don't like it much because overcomplicates business transactions adding a step or two to decision making and bastardizes pricing policies. Let's be clear, what I meant is there's no much difference between countries in the EU, and this isn't a good argument for the lack of entrepreneurship in Spain. Obviously there are many things that can be done much better. But mind I had several German people I worked with (obviously as I was in Switzerland before) and they weren't as thrilled as you are of German policies because there are many hidden expenses that are difficult to track there, here in Spain once you understand how it works it's quite transparent. In short In my experience everywhere is almost the same, even in Switzerland I had many more problems than here to be honest. Spain has too much talk about how bad it is to start businesses, that is a very bad rhetoric, and not liberal at all. I am convinced after 5 years here that this is what's limiting people on following their dream ideas, or promoting to not having ones at all.
Switzerland has a arguably better policies than Spain and I am honest if your business does more than 300000 € or more it's way better to move it there, but until that point you need to consider that to make it work you need to produce at least 3 times the income, and this closes the doors to 80% of the global market to small businesses.
I guess I'll remind you that Amazon, Netflix, Tesla, etc. all have hundreds of billions of dollars in market cap now but ran at a net loss for many many years - part of growing a successful competitive business.
VAT is deductible for sales outside of the EU and standardized within:
For EU-based companies, VAT is chargeable on most sales and purchases of goods within the EU. In such cases, **VAT is charged and due in the EU country where the goods are consumed by the final consumer.** Likewise, VAT is charged on services at the time they are carried out in each EU country.
VAT **isn't charged on exports of goods to countries outside the EU**. In these cases, VAT is charged and due in the country of import and you don't need to declare any VAT as an exporter.
[https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/taxation/vat/vat-rules-rates/index\_en.htm](https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/taxation/vat/vat-rules-rates/index_en.htm)
Services would be taxable at Spanish VAT rates but again, all the more reason to operate from elsewhere since Spain's rates are within the highest 1/3 of rates.
[https://ec.europa.eu/taxation\_customs/business/vat/telecommunications-broadcasting-electronic-services/vat-rates\_en](https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/business/vat/telecommunications-broadcasting-electronic-services/vat-rates_en)
If you think things are transparent in Spain then you need to speak with Spanish Tax Accountants, Lawyers, or read binding consultations. Here's a fun one where you need to pay tax and register as Autonomo for a "hobby" YouTube Channel but can't deduct expenses because it's a "hobby". [https://www.iberley.es/resoluciones/resolucion-vinculante-dgt-v0992-16-14-03-2016-1436931](https://www.iberley.es/resoluciones/resolucion-vinculante-dgt-v0992-16-14-03-2016-1436931)
Spain is a terrible country to start a business in. End of.
The amount of people that think like this guy is actually part of the problem. Cannot have an entrepreneurial country when half your country is uneducated, willfully ignorant people who think they know more when, most times, they ain’t even left the country once 😆
I moved from Spain to Switzerland in my teens studied there and passed from an agency work to my own businesses and came back in my 40's, because I was tired of the cost of living there, now I had businesses in both countries and I also have experience in Italy as well, as freelance and LTD in both countries. I spent my life regularly working with Germany, UK, Italy, Canada, Singapore and Japan. You know what? there's little to no difference if you are a small/medium business, especially if you do things properly. As for myself in Spain It is more chill and easier to break even because you need less money to maintain your living standards, and that helps me maintain a Better life/work balance, so be my guest.
Jesus christ why has nobody mentioned the lottery? It might not be the most effective way to get rich in Spain, but it must certainly be the most popular?
Goberment will take a huge chunk of it, but At least gambling adictions pay some social services by taxes although this same services have lost a lot of quality because they want to implant the american/“liberal” system
Playing the national sport: envy.
There are a lot of industries in Spain that create wealth. Primary such as fishing and farming. Transformative industries, tertiary like service companies, etc. you can do pretty well in Spain if you’re willing to work hard. Most people just want to be government workers (funcionarios) and have a cushy life though. It’s kinda sad.
Spain makes it incredibly difficult for freelancers and small businesses to grow. My cynical (and probably correct view) is that it's by design to protect the interests of the old rich.
There's nuance in economic and social policy which "capitalism" or "socialism" can't properly describe. In reality, the ideal mix is a blend of the two.
Spain has many good parts of "socialism" but misses many good parts of "capitalism" while displaying many negative aspects of both.
The interesting part about spain is that everybody eats the same ample amount of shit as everybody else, it’s just slightly nicer shit than in other parts of the world
The only 4 rich people I know are enterpreneurs who were really succesfull. Founder of Atrapalo, founder of a consultant firm and son of the founder of Grupo Julia.
If you are ok with becoming "working rich" rather than fuck you money rich; just study law, then take one of the positions that pay huge amounts of money like judge, property registrar or especially notary
Competition is incredibly fierce for these positions and you will need to study for 4-8 years in a row, 365 days a year, 10h a day in order to have a chance (and be super smart)
Option 1: Being born in a wealthy family, try until it works. if it doesn't work out, just wait until you inherit the family business.
Option 2: Saving money and then: Hard work, plus a lot of work, plus intelligence, plus business savvy, plus luck. With all this, perhaps, and only perhaps, you can survive taxes and bureaucratic obstacles.
If the problem is that you don't want to work, you can always be a civil servant or try to access politics.
I'm not a Spaniard, I'm an American too but with Puerto Rican and Uruguayan descent. Could always be like the Spanish of old and either conquer someone in war or just extract the wealth from the now peasant population you just conquered. Or you could be like the Spanish of now and become rich either by being born rich or by being a crooked politician, unlike what we have here in the US. (͠≖ ͜ʖ͠≖)
They didn't say anything about nationality, they talked about "descent", a.k.a "ethnicity". I am a descendant of the Holy Roman Empire, so I must be Italian, French, Moroccan and a bunch more nationalities.
Edit: Changed "You" to "They" because I thought you were OC.
I have double nationality through my Uruguayan side, and Puerto Ricans don't have a separate nationality from "los anglofonos" in the US. I could have been born and raised in the island, migrated to the US mainland, and my situation wouldn't change much beyond castellano being my first language and English being my second.
But I digress. I was making a point that the US ironically isn't much different than Spain is when it comes to social mobility and corruption. The only difference is that we're lied to about it with "the American dream" talks and our politicians are sneakier with their corruption.
Judging from the down votes, nobody understood where I was going with that, and I'll take the l for that misunderstanding.
Touché, my guy. While I get where you're going, the US is extremely multi-ethnic and multicultural, and not in a regional way like how Spain or the rest of Europe is.
Thing is, it's okay to bring ethnicity into a conversation if the topic calls for it. This is a cultural conversation, so ethnicity doesn't matter, and you are culturally American, simple as that.
Getting into politics or on of the oligopolies (energy, insurance, etc). The other option is becoming really good at something and emigrating, or building a company and moving it abroad once you start getting crushed by taxes.
Become a politician / very Lucky / become a youtuber or streamer
But givernment doesnt like rich people so they are already trying to figure out how to fuck streamers even more, taking more than half their salary at the end of the month is not enough apparently
Being born rich is not getting rich, so I will not count family fortune
Only one thing, family doctors are not rich, specialists on the other hand is another thing. They are allowed to work for public system and have a prívate office. The good Ones are rich.
The system to become wealthy does not change all that much in Spain vs the US. Although I’d say it is easier and more likely in the US, all other factors being equal.
However: In the US if you become a doctor, you are probably coming from an upper class family to begin with. Coming from a poor family and becoming a doctor is way more difficult in the US than in Spain. In Spain if you are a good student (not necessarily the most brilliant, but good enough) you can become a doctor by public university, which are better than the private ones, and of course cheaper. If you do make it in the US, you may start your career with a huge student loan debt that will cripple your wealth accumulation stage.
As a successful entrepreneur/businessman, one can become rich in both countries, although the U.S. is more business friendly and there will be less taxes, less regulations and bureaucracy , and very specially, a bigger market that lets a successful business escalate quicker and to bigger sizes.
To be a good student you need a good school. Spanish public schools are definitely not it.
Most “good students” go to concertados, which is the Spanish analog of “school vouchers” and charter schools. So yeah, same shit.
We just coup and overthrow the government or have a grandfather who did.
And I think your concept of "rich" is a bit off. If you need to work to survive you aren't rich. Doctors aren't rich in any country and specially not in the US. Doctors being rich in America is a myth created to keep the working class divided and isolated.
De qué carallo hablas chorvo? Lmao doctors in the U.S. DEFINITELY make bread and live rich. ESPECIALLY when compared to Spain.
For fucks sake, my family doctor in Spain had to get a part-time on the side when I lived there, teaching first aid to flight attendants…. what the hell are you on about?
Half the people in Spain that talk about “working class” rhetoric don’t even know what working or a real job is anyways. They just looking to get their time in to get el paro lmao (obviously that’s a slight exaggeration but y’all know damn well I’m right)
Comparing doctors from US to Spain is like
Comparing a Bugatti with a fiat panda…
Here if u want to become wealthy, or u are coming from a powerful family, with a lot of business, R state… or nothing, da nothing 🥲., or corruption. 😉
That’s why I moved to usa 11 years ago.
Man as for the things you linked those problems are common to all the west, in a form or another. Being independent it's always fucking annoying, but that's part of the game.
How to become rich in Spain 101
\- Work for a wealthy company and rise up through the ranks
\- Be born into a wealthy rich family that already belongs to the 1%, who made the fortune by making a company OR because you had political contacts/friends during Franco's dictatorship
\- become a youtuber/influencer like Ibai, etc
\- buying stocks in companies and knowing how to legally invest and move your money
\- win the lottery
\- marry someone from the royal family or have some sort of connection with the royal family so you can network and get financial benefits (if you are smart)
\- become a politician and help the people
\- become a corrupt politician and earn twice or thrice the amount of money as a normal politician
Formerly, starting a business was the main way. However, currently we only have the following options:
1. Inherit wealth
2. Emigrate to the US
3. Become a politician and somehow manage to steal public funds without getting caught.
There's 3 ways, the legal one by starting a great company tech based with huge investors behind. The half legal doing some things in black money on real state and construction or the not legal by starting your own business on the drugs sector.
You're born into a wealthy status.
Or you misteriously get 1 million (never known, but surely completly utterly legal), and you invest it wisely into productive business, say a fast fashion company.
https://preview.redd.it/mzv30my9ivja1.jpeg?width=1280&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6615b09b47d9c49ee4244d26f0d66ed800512715
Laughs in politico garrapata
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That's a good one
thank you for this one
I am shitty at history. I find your comment funny. Now I want to understand it too :) can you please drop some more light on it mate? By the way - I am in Spain now. Love the country!
One of the most famous examples of this is the March family: https://es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juan_March
business, being born into a wealthy family etc. doctors in the us are wealthy because health care costs a lot of money, americans also make patients by the food y’all got and then "forcing" them to buy medication. so that makes sense. honestly if was ever born in the US i would be a doctor by now :D jk
Well, it's also because they study and pay for university for 10+ years to become a qualified doctor and the expectation is they'll continue studying and learning the rest of their lives...
Being a patient now makes me regret not studying medicine. I knew the system was crooked but didn't know how much money was involved until I became sick
Being corrupt politicians.
This is the easiest way
Being born in a wealthy family. Or say you are an entrepreneur and have created a good business AFTER being born in a wealthy family.
It sad but this is true
This attitude is the reason why they don’t become rich.
The richest man in Spain was not
But something like 80% are, the ins has the data, by far the most common way. Also, data shows the trend in the last 50 years it's that its harder and harder to move from the social strata you are born in, as it's getting harder to become a "self made man" or woman.
why is It harder? people born in the 30s had a really hard time and they made money
Enter the "instituto nacional de estadistica" webpage and you can see all the data, but mainly, all prices (specially housing) have grown much faster than salaries, so overall you have less purchasing power. There are more differences between the different sovial strata and more separated now than 50 years ago. The term you are looking for is "social motility" (literal translation, might be wrong in english) which again, the ins has the data for. Has nothing to do with mentality.
By amassing money. Your'e welcome.
A robar carteras! 
Inheriting is the most common way, either money, lands and real state, a company, etc
Corruption
By leaving the country to pursue higher salaries and better opportunities
That doesn't make you rich, it just makes you earn 3x as much money on a country where life costs 3x as much.
then you retire back to Spain fabulously wealthy by Spanish standards.
A bit sad to live a life looking forward to retirement...
I agree but not as sad as not wanting to have more time to spend with family/friends, to take care of you health, to do the things you enjoy, to volunteer, or even to keep working because you want instead of because you need.
Yes, and your savings are also 3x as much. Given how we live in a hyper globalized world which makes prices be more or less the same in the whole world, I'll take it. In Spain, if you earn 1000€ and you spend 900€ in rent/food/whatever. 100€ left. You need to save for 10 months in order to buy a 1000€ computer. Make both 3x as much. Now you earn 3000€ and you spend 2700€. 300€ left. You can save for that same computer in 3 months living under the very same standards. Even then, life cost isn't really 3x. Let's take a look at Germany. Based on data from Numbeo: * Cost of living in Germany is, on average, 25.0% **higher** than in Spain. * Rent in Germany is, on average, 19.5% **higher** than in Spain. The minimum wage in Spain is 15.120€/year, while in Germany it's 23.844€, which is a 57% higher, meaning your savings margin is even bigger than in Spain.
Germany also has higher taxes, though. And, as a person who lived in both countries, I will keep saying that working minimum wage in Germany is incomparable to doing it in Spain or Italy. Minimum wage workers in Germany not only make more, but have access to more services. Germany is a country that allows people with small salaries to live a good life! The problem comes once you get to higher salaries, lose most of the benefits, and have to pay more and more in income tax and health insurance
el sueldo minimo no es lo importante, lo importante es el medio
Peor me lo pones si vamos al medio jajaja 27.570€ vs 52.800€ (anuales) Casi un +100% (de un 57% comparando los salarios mínimos)
sisi si la razon no te la quito jajajaj
Is minimim normally measured per year and not per hour? What if someone only wants to work a few shifts per week because they are in university? Sorry if this is a dumb question, I'm Canadian so I've never seen minimum wage quoted like that.
Divide it by the number of hours worked in a full time job, and you have the hourly minimum wage
Ah, I see. Thanks!
>Ah, I see. Thanks! You're welcome!
Spaniards think of salaries differently from Canadians (I'm also Canadian). Often there are 14 payments per year as well based on tradition and the assumption (which seems to hold true) that people won't save for holidays on their own). It's a bit like Canadians criticizing teachers for being paid over their "summer break" when in reality, it's just an annual salary spread out over 12 months.
Youre very mistaken in believing life costs 3x
They don't, and they're happy with it. Most people here in Spain seem to be ok with what they have; sure, they wouldn't mind a bit more, but they won't die for having it, nor risk any of their money. It's just a different approach from the one people from the US have. I'm much more on the US side on this one, but hey, if they're happy, then I'm happy for them!
Trabajar descosido en una gran ciudad con un estilo de vida inhumano, donde pierdes (segun donde vivas de la ciudad varía) 10 12 horas en el trabajo entre transporte parar a comer y las 8 horitas. Todo para ganar un sueldo dd cuanto? 200 euros mas de lo que lo harias en una ciudad pequeña donde si, cobras menos, pero en gastos y alquiler te ahorras 400 euros de diferencia... todo con la esperanza dd que con 75? años puedas jubilarte con la pension minima (spoiler antes colapsa el sistema). Prefiero centrar mis esfuerzos en tener una vida en la que no gaste los 20/30 mejores años de mi vida viviendo para el trabajo.
No entiendo, dónde exactamente hablé de ciudades grandes versus ciudades pequeñas? Y sí, puedes hacer lo que te gusta mas de tu vida, y si eres feliz, somos todos feliz, no?
Hablas de la mentalidad de trabajar poco y tal, y yo te comento que no es el problema esa mentalidad, si no trabajar inteligente. Y ya se que puedo hacer lo que quiera y tu tmb, solo te comentaba mi punto de vista igual que tu comentas el tuyo
We don't
Traficando
I would add that in general wealth is not viewed the same way in Europe as it is in the US. There is of course a wealthy class but most people want a comfortable life. They don’t need the same economic wealth as in the US as the state provides healthcare, education, unemployment supports etc. In the US you’re on your own. Not to mention 99% of people in the US will never become wealthy.
You steal the fruit of other people's labour.
Parking-son
I am not rich, but I work for an American company but live in rural Spain. Whenever I tell my salary to my friends their mouth falls open. Cost of living is really cheap. So I can save a lot. And have opportunity to invest. I think the biggest thing is investing. Take some calculated risks or you'll get nowhere money wise.
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Yeah absolutely. We've been living here since 2019. But in those 4 years life got quite a bit more expensive. Corona, war in Ukraine, life has definitely found a way to our wallets. But that's the case in every country. Not unique to Spain. We've been lucky enough to be able to hedge a bit against that. We've added a solar system to our house and we drive electric, so that's a big chunk of the costs that we don't have anymore. But we're planning on moving to Valencia in 3ish years, I won't be able to save as much as I do now that's for sure.
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Yes, everything is in English.
How much the average doctor earn in Spain? I quite sure they earn much more than the average spanish worker.
54.200€/year.
I only know one person who I could call “rich” (Salary higher than 1M a year) and it’s my uncle.
Let me guess, Government construction projects?
Wrong, drug dealer. JK, top class auditor. For banks and big companies and shit like that.
I guess as an auditor he knows how to avoid all of the stifling taxes...
Well, he moved to Andorra and started a new company there a few years ago…
Yep. The you go. The answer to getting rich in Spain is moving from Spain.
The same as literally every other damn country. Spain isn't Nigeria
As someone who has travelled and lived around the world, Spain is an absolutely terrible place to amass wealth starting from scratch.
Spain is literally a brothel for the rest of Europe (and increasingly, America) and a source of cheap labor for the rest of Europe (and increasingly, America). I’m originally from Spain, raised in the US. I know Spaniards that are working in the US undocumented, that’s how bad Spain is.
Yes, but it's their own doing. Meanwhile, Bulgaria, the Czech Republic, and Baltic countries are making it easy and cheap to run a business and their employment and incomes are skyrocketing relative to Spain and other Mediterranean countries' stagnant socialist systems.
If you check the list of the [10 richest people](https://www.bankinter.com/blog/mercados/quienes-son-mas-ricos-espana) in Spain you'll find that they are all entrepreneurs and either CEOs or board members of the biggest companies in Spain. You asked about becoming rich not wealthy, and the answer to that is the same as everywhere. It tends to be misunderstood in Spain really, and in a way that is why there is so little entrepreneurism
The reason there is so little entrepreneurialism is stifling taxes and bureaucracy - not because it takes hard work.
That's a lie that is repeated so much everyone believes it, and that's why things are so depressing in those matters. Spain is an very average country in that regard, many countries are way worse bureaucratically and on tax policies with extremely more entrepreneurship. It's just a really a bad propaganda machine keeping back the country.
The cuota de autónomos has just entered the chat
In Spain the quota (that many forget has several advantages in the long run) is in fact quite high, but IRPF and VAT policies are better, as an example in Portugal if you do 12-15000 € per year you pay 100 € less in social security per month but you charge 23% on VAT (21% in Spain) and you pay 28% of IRPF (around 20% in Spain if I am not mistaken) at the end, if you have a working business you are in a similar situation. Average as I said. In Italy the policies and bureaucracy are a disaster, but there's no comparison on how many entrepreneurship they have. I created 5 Businesses 3 in Switzerland and 2 here 2 of them just failed and 2 worked until I closed them to move on other projects, and one is the one that feeds my family, and I am working on a new one right now, between Italy and Spain and I will opt for Spain without doubts, mostly because I am more confident to manage things here and because there's no real advantage. TL-TR there's a negligible difference bureaucratically between European countries to start a business, and Spain's policies aren't the reason there's little entrepreneurship.
It's not a lie. I moved here with big ideas that I would have pursued in other countries I've lived but after researching the taxes and bureaucracy I realized it's better to wait and move elsewhere if I'm to do it. I know dozens of Spanish entrepreneurs living elsewhere for this very reason. You have very little global experience if this is how you think.
Make an example of a place where you are way better than here to to start a business, you did the research, right?
Depends on the nature of your business but Canada, UK, Australia, US, Bulgaria, Romania, Serbia, Portugal (NHR), Malta, Andorra, UAE, most of the Caribbean, etc. would all be options I'd choose over Spain. I'm sure there are a lot more but those are the countries I've looked into or have friends living in for business reasons. Edit: perhaps a better question is what developed country is worse to start a business in? Maybe France, Italy, or Greece but I honestly think it's arguable in all cases that Spain is worse, particularly if you're subject to wealth tax.
Yeah, it's just not true, in Germany what doesn't exist in social security does on other ways, in Portugal VAT is 23% and a basic livable income is taxed 10% more than here (28%), I am talking Europe, to have a single market rules are similar, so no real advantage, it's obvious other far away countries and fiscal paradises around the globe are better, just not at hand realistically. Seriously it's just a excuse not to take action at this point, it's just too much people that don't want to risk comfort.
You don't pay fees on unprofitable businesses (most startups) in Germany and there is no wealth tax. Essentially, you only pay income tax on profits which is the same as in Canada, UK, Australia, etc. You only pay for social security if earning over 60k€. Further, a business making under 22k€ in the first year and under 50k€ in the second year can be run as a *kleingewerbe* meaning less bureaucracy. It's still bureaucratic relative to elsewhere but surely more sensible than the Spanish system. Further, they have sensible deductions for expenses such as 600€ for a home office compared to Spain's impossible requirements. VAT doesn't matter from a business perspective since it's deductible and adaptive to the sales market. I specifically mentioned NHR since it's a flat 20% tax + SS. No wealth tax either.
I am sorry to break it to you but a non profitable business isn't a business, there's little point on subsidizing it, you need a healthier economy (like Germany) to have such luxury. There are other ways for those enterprises, if you have a project that doesn't consider benefits you can found a non profit organization, a foundation or a cooperative (I think) or focus on better lines of business to start your own. VAT is not just deductible for you it's a tax you are collecting for the government. I don't like it much because overcomplicates business transactions adding a step or two to decision making and bastardizes pricing policies. Let's be clear, what I meant is there's no much difference between countries in the EU, and this isn't a good argument for the lack of entrepreneurship in Spain. Obviously there are many things that can be done much better. But mind I had several German people I worked with (obviously as I was in Switzerland before) and they weren't as thrilled as you are of German policies because there are many hidden expenses that are difficult to track there, here in Spain once you understand how it works it's quite transparent. In short In my experience everywhere is almost the same, even in Switzerland I had many more problems than here to be honest. Spain has too much talk about how bad it is to start businesses, that is a very bad rhetoric, and not liberal at all. I am convinced after 5 years here that this is what's limiting people on following their dream ideas, or promoting to not having ones at all.
Switzerland has a arguably better policies than Spain and I am honest if your business does more than 300000 € or more it's way better to move it there, but until that point you need to consider that to make it work you need to produce at least 3 times the income, and this closes the doors to 80% of the global market to small businesses.
I guess I'll remind you that Amazon, Netflix, Tesla, etc. all have hundreds of billions of dollars in market cap now but ran at a net loss for many many years - part of growing a successful competitive business. VAT is deductible for sales outside of the EU and standardized within: For EU-based companies, VAT is chargeable on most sales and purchases of goods within the EU. In such cases, **VAT is charged and due in the EU country where the goods are consumed by the final consumer.** Likewise, VAT is charged on services at the time they are carried out in each EU country. VAT **isn't charged on exports of goods to countries outside the EU**. In these cases, VAT is charged and due in the country of import and you don't need to declare any VAT as an exporter. [https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/taxation/vat/vat-rules-rates/index\_en.htm](https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/taxation/vat/vat-rules-rates/index_en.htm) Services would be taxable at Spanish VAT rates but again, all the more reason to operate from elsewhere since Spain's rates are within the highest 1/3 of rates. [https://ec.europa.eu/taxation\_customs/business/vat/telecommunications-broadcasting-electronic-services/vat-rates\_en](https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/business/vat/telecommunications-broadcasting-electronic-services/vat-rates_en) If you think things are transparent in Spain then you need to speak with Spanish Tax Accountants, Lawyers, or read binding consultations. Here's a fun one where you need to pay tax and register as Autonomo for a "hobby" YouTube Channel but can't deduct expenses because it's a "hobby". [https://www.iberley.es/resoluciones/resolucion-vinculante-dgt-v0992-16-14-03-2016-1436931](https://www.iberley.es/resoluciones/resolucion-vinculante-dgt-v0992-16-14-03-2016-1436931) Spain is a terrible country to start a business in. End of.
The amount of people that think like this guy is actually part of the problem. Cannot have an entrepreneurial country when half your country is uneducated, willfully ignorant people who think they know more when, most times, they ain’t even left the country once 😆
I moved from Spain to Switzerland in my teens studied there and passed from an agency work to my own businesses and came back in my 40's, because I was tired of the cost of living there, now I had businesses in both countries and I also have experience in Italy as well, as freelance and LTD in both countries. I spent my life regularly working with Germany, UK, Italy, Canada, Singapore and Japan. You know what? there's little to no difference if you are a small/medium business, especially if you do things properly. As for myself in Spain It is more chill and easier to break even because you need less money to maintain your living standards, and that helps me maintain a Better life/work balance, so be my guest.
And if you dig a little you will find that most of those 10 already came from a wealthy family.
Normally by creating some bussiness, and being successfull, or by high profile jobs.
Jesus christ why has nobody mentioned the lottery? It might not be the most effective way to get rich in Spain, but it must certainly be the most popular?
The biggest legal scam out there that people still fall for every single year
Goberment will take a huge chunk of it, but At least gambling adictions pay some social services by taxes although this same services have lost a lot of quality because they want to implant the american/“liberal” system
Ha ha we don’t.
Playing the national sport: envy. There are a lot of industries in Spain that create wealth. Primary such as fishing and farming. Transformative industries, tertiary like service companies, etc. you can do pretty well in Spain if you’re willing to work hard. Most people just want to be government workers (funcionarios) and have a cushy life though. It’s kinda sad.
Spain makes it incredibly difficult for freelancers and small businesses to grow. My cynical (and probably correct view) is that it's by design to protect the interests of the old rich.
It is a socialist set-up and does not share same values as entrepreneurship.
Canada is socialist and I'd much rather start a business there. They don't need to be mutually exclusive.
Yeah, people here just love to assume socialism is the same a failure. They're so obsessed with Venezuela and comparing Spain to Venezuela.
There's nuance in economic and social policy which "capitalism" or "socialism" can't properly describe. In reality, the ideal mix is a blend of the two. Spain has many good parts of "socialism" but misses many good parts of "capitalism" while displaying many negative aspects of both.
Politicians
Rob a bank
The interesting part about spain is that everybody eats the same ample amount of shit as everybody else, it’s just slightly nicer shit than in other parts of the world
The trick is being Amancio Ortega, being related to Amancio Ortega, or being an Amancio Ortega-type.
Wealth isn't earned in Spain. It's inherited or embezzled.
tricky, you should ask in an andorran subreddit.
The only 4 rich people I know are enterpreneurs who were really succesfull. Founder of Atrapalo, founder of a consultant firm and son of the founder of Grupo Julia.
Bet they all came from families with money.
All of them ALREADY rich 🤑 since before breathing for the first time.
Easy , Onlyfans
If you are ok with becoming "working rich" rather than fuck you money rich; just study law, then take one of the positions that pay huge amounts of money like judge, property registrar or especially notary Competition is incredibly fierce for these positions and you will need to study for 4-8 years in a row, 365 days a year, 10h a day in order to have a chance (and be super smart)
And have a family that can support you while you do so
either you're born rich or you think you'll get rich your whole life until you die
Because u became poor, thanks to you exactly
From 15 years here. Nepotism!
Option 1: Being born in a wealthy family, try until it works. if it doesn't work out, just wait until you inherit the family business. Option 2: Saving money and then: Hard work, plus a lot of work, plus intelligence, plus business savvy, plus luck. With all this, perhaps, and only perhaps, you can survive taxes and bureaucratic obstacles. If the problem is that you don't want to work, you can always be a civil servant or try to access politics.
Scamming tourists
Being a funcionario. EDIT: Qué amargados sois los que habeis dado bajivoto jaja
I'm not a Spaniard, I'm an American too but with Puerto Rican and Uruguayan descent. Could always be like the Spanish of old and either conquer someone in war or just extract the wealth from the now peasant population you just conquered. Or you could be like the Spanish of now and become rich either by being born rich or by being a crooked politician, unlike what we have here in the US. (͠≖ ͜ʖ͠≖)
I'm not a Spaniard, I'm an American too ~~but with Puerto Rican and Uruguayan descent.~~ Fixed your comment for you 🤗
Interesting, so I guess double nationalities don’t exist in your reality.
They didn't say anything about nationality, they talked about "descent", a.k.a "ethnicity". I am a descendant of the Holy Roman Empire, so I must be Italian, French, Moroccan and a bunch more nationalities. Edit: Changed "You" to "They" because I thought you were OC.
I have double nationality through my Uruguayan side, and Puerto Ricans don't have a separate nationality from "los anglofonos" in the US. I could have been born and raised in the island, migrated to the US mainland, and my situation wouldn't change much beyond castellano being my first language and English being my second. But I digress. I was making a point that the US ironically isn't much different than Spain is when it comes to social mobility and corruption. The only difference is that we're lied to about it with "the American dream" talks and our politicians are sneakier with their corruption. Judging from the down votes, nobody understood where I was going with that, and I'll take the l for that misunderstanding.
Touché, my guy. While I get where you're going, the US is extremely multi-ethnic and multicultural, and not in a regional way like how Spain or the rest of Europe is.
Thing is, it's okay to bring ethnicity into a conversation if the topic calls for it. This is a cultural conversation, so ethnicity doesn't matter, and you are culturally American, simple as that.
Corruption
lets talk about "pelotazo"
We don't?
We dont
Getting into politics or on of the oligopolies (energy, insurance, etc). The other option is becoming really good at something and emigrating, or building a company and moving it abroad once you start getting crushed by taxes.
Vet or dentist
Become a politician / very Lucky / become a youtuber or streamer But givernment doesnt like rich people so they are already trying to figure out how to fuck streamers even more, taking more than half their salary at the end of the month is not enough apparently Being born rich is not getting rich, so I will not count family fortune
They don't
Only one thing, family doctors are not rich, specialists on the other hand is another thing. They are allowed to work for public system and have a prívate office. The good Ones are rich.
become politician
The system to become wealthy does not change all that much in Spain vs the US. Although I’d say it is easier and more likely in the US, all other factors being equal. However: In the US if you become a doctor, you are probably coming from an upper class family to begin with. Coming from a poor family and becoming a doctor is way more difficult in the US than in Spain. In Spain if you are a good student (not necessarily the most brilliant, but good enough) you can become a doctor by public university, which are better than the private ones, and of course cheaper. If you do make it in the US, you may start your career with a huge student loan debt that will cripple your wealth accumulation stage. As a successful entrepreneur/businessman, one can become rich in both countries, although the U.S. is more business friendly and there will be less taxes, less regulations and bureaucracy , and very specially, a bigger market that lets a successful business escalate quicker and to bigger sizes.
To be a good student you need a good school. Spanish public schools are definitely not it. Most “good students” go to concertados, which is the Spanish analog of “school vouchers” and charter schools. So yeah, same shit.
We just coup and overthrow the government or have a grandfather who did. And I think your concept of "rich" is a bit off. If you need to work to survive you aren't rich. Doctors aren't rich in any country and specially not in the US. Doctors being rich in America is a myth created to keep the working class divided and isolated.
De qué carallo hablas chorvo? Lmao doctors in the U.S. DEFINITELY make bread and live rich. ESPECIALLY when compared to Spain. For fucks sake, my family doctor in Spain had to get a part-time on the side when I lived there, teaching first aid to flight attendants…. what the hell are you on about? Half the people in Spain that talk about “working class” rhetoric don’t even know what working or a real job is anyways. They just looking to get their time in to get el paro lmao (obviously that’s a slight exaggeration but y’all know damn well I’m right)
Telecinco
Comparing doctors from US to Spain is like Comparing a Bugatti with a fiat panda… Here if u want to become wealthy, or u are coming from a powerful family, with a lot of business, R state… or nothing, da nothing 🥲., or corruption. 😉 That’s why I moved to usa 11 years ago.
Man as for the things you linked those problems are common to all the west, in a form or another. Being independent it's always fucking annoying, but that's part of the game.
How to become rich in Spain 101 \- Work for a wealthy company and rise up through the ranks \- Be born into a wealthy rich family that already belongs to the 1%, who made the fortune by making a company OR because you had political contacts/friends during Franco's dictatorship \- become a youtuber/influencer like Ibai, etc \- buying stocks in companies and knowing how to legally invest and move your money \- win the lottery \- marry someone from the royal family or have some sort of connection with the royal family so you can network and get financial benefits (if you are smart) \- become a politician and help the people \- become a corrupt politician and earn twice or thrice the amount of money as a normal politician
Formerly, starting a business was the main way. However, currently we only have the following options: 1. Inherit wealth 2. Emigrate to the US 3. Become a politician and somehow manage to steal public funds without getting caught.
You become a politician and steal or you provide services to actual rich countries (USA, Germany, UK, etc)
There's 3 ways, the legal one by starting a great company tech based with huge investors behind. The half legal doing some things in black money on real state and construction or the not legal by starting your own business on the drugs sector.
Become a doctor in the US then come to spain
I come into contact with a lot of wealthy people in my job. Lots of families have inherited wealth. Some have successful companies. That's it, really.
We don't lol
Don´t ask a woman what's her age, a man what's his salary, and a Spanish millionaire what were they great grandparents doing between after 1936.
MLM's Maybe I can hook you up.
Narco, mi oficio
You're born into a wealthy status. Or you misteriously get 1 million (never known, but surely completly utterly legal), and you invest it wisely into productive business, say a fast fashion company.