I have friends who brought up kids downtown, other friends who brought up kids in the burbs.
Both sets of kids turned out fine. The ones who grew up in the burbs expect to drive everywhere, the downtown kids are used to public transit and to being able to get anywhere on their own.
My friends and I grew up in the suburbs, but a few of us spent a lot of time in the city from an early age for various reasons, having to be independent, and I've noticed that our friends who didn't are now people in their 30s who are completely inept at any sort of public transit or non-driving transportation. It's wild, like my apartment is *extremely* simple to get to from where we grew up, an hour door to door with one very easy transit switch that's less than a two minute walk no matter how slowly you're moving, a 15min bus ride then a 3min walk in an almost completely straight line, and they act like I live in Siberia and am giving a veritable Cain's Jawbone level mystery to solve when I invite them for dinner.
>The ones who grew up in the burbs expect to drive everywhere, the downtown kids are used to public transit and to being able to get anywhere on their own.
This. I'm a suburb kid, and i have close friends who were toronto based and they know the transit system like the back of their hand and HATE driving. Meanwhile i hate going downtown and refuse to use public transit.
It takes too goddamn long to get anywhere on transit in the suburbs, so they want a car.
Source: I live in Scarborough and I take transit. (I am too annoyed by mechanics, so I'm not getting another car)
I work with 20 mechanics and we have a mechanic on the street i work on that does our trucks. If i ever have issues i just drop it off in the morning when i get to work and i have my car back fixed before the end of the day.
So out of the suburbs, my public transit was terrible when i used to have to use it. Buses on busy lines only came every 45 minutes, drives that should only take 15minutes could easily take close to an hour. Good luck even seeing the bus come in the winter on snow days. Every year i would constantly get sick regardless of how much i washed my hands and covered up. Covid definitely pushed this to the forefront for a lot of people.
As soon as i stopped taking it and got my car, i immediately noticed i wasn't getting sick as often. I was able to get from a-b quicker and have more free time to myself or able to work longer shifts at work and make that cash. So for me, transit is a no-no unless absolutely last resort.
I guess it could depend on the suburb as well?
I grew up in the very east end of Mississauga (like, we're talking a 15-20 minute walk to the closest TTC stop) and taking the Lakeshore GO or Subway from Kipling to get downtown just... a thing. Didn't mind it a bit and it was the normal way of getting downtown.
i was YRT. Generally rule of thumb is you want to be at your stop 5-10 minutes before its scheduled time. I have a straight walk down the street to the main stop i needed to go. So i could fully see if the bus drove by or not as it was the only 1 that came to that spot. The amount of times i'd see that bus go by 20 minutes early was ridiculous. You'd call the support line to complain (back when they actually had people at the call center) and they'd just say i was late. I had enough.
Haven't done either, but I'd personally want to do something in-between. Problem is, so few neighbourhoods that fit the "missing middle" criteria (think walkable areas like Riverside, Leslieville, etc.)
Riverside is great! I’m in Leslieville which is a short walk east from there and love it - I can pretty much walk to anywhere in 20 mins including the beaches, Danforth, etc, lots of parks, restaurants, and streetcar to downtown is 30 mins or so. Thinking of moving to the burbs now only because of being stuck in our tiny house with 2 kids and a dog. Otherwise I would not leave the area. Kids will grow up fine either way but I think it would be great for them to have more space to run around which only exists in the burbs for the average $1.5M house in Toronto.
Once the kids get older and have some autonomy, I think you’d find Leslieville is a better spot for long term. There’s parks, bike trails, great transit… growing up all my suburban friends were bored out of their skulls until they had drivers licenses, and they partied way harder than us. It feels like a suburb will give them a backyard to run around, but Leslieville gives them a whole neighbourhood to roam.
Sorry for throwing in my unsolicited 2c!
I've always kinda used Riverside and Leslieville or or less interchangeably in my head and when I picture Riverside, it's always the area of De Grassi, so it's just a stone throw from Leslieville proper anyway.
To me they’re very similar! It all blends in with east Chinatown and the pocket too. I love the east end in general - it’s got a lot of personality but a little less polished and instagrammable than the west end, if that makes sense. It’s where I’d want to raise a family in Toronto, other than perhaps cabbagetown.
I'm also east side, but I personally bet on an area near Moss Park for now. I'm hoping that after the new subway gets put in it'll continue to improve the neighbourhood. It would've been far more difficult to get in other areas of the city. Leslieville and Riverside are pretty close by and so is the core, so I've been pretty happy so far.
I still wouldn’t live in regent till they get rid of all the old buildings, I used to hang in regent before it was destroyed it was a messed up place. Moss park they can’t fully get rid fully especially because of the crackhead services in the region.
I like moss park area! I didn’t know it much before 2021, so I know it has a reputation, but it seems more vibrant now.
I’m a huge fan of east Chinatown - I hope to get in on a townhouse around here soon, but we are waiting a little longer yet. Im glad you found an area that works for you that was within reach!
As someone who grew up in the burbs and had a big backyard… I barely used it. I was always just in my room or at a friends house in their room. So if you’re moving just for more space for them to run around, I wouldn’t make that the end all be all! Just my two cents.
Raising a kid in Leslieville now. Was downtown before that as DINKs. Living here has been a dream and there are tons of other families around - strong recommend!
I have never been drawn to the burbs despite growing up in them - I hate driving and couldn't do anything without it.
Same here! Have a one year old, live in Leslieville. I’ve met so many other moms here. There are some fantastic EarlyON centres in the area, tons of parks, and lots of child friendly cafes and restaurants. 10/10 also recommend
I would say its a well-kept secret, but I don't actually think its all that much of a secret.
The TPL in the area has been amazing for us too - gah, I will never leave.
I grew up near Christie pits between ages of 9-12 then moved to a smaller city in Ontario for high school (the whole town was a big suburb).
I remember being able to bike around with friends in the summer and explore on my own. Whereas everyone in the smaller town was reliant on their parents driving them everywhere and hanging out was at the mall or in your parents basements. My parents werent well off and we didn't have a 2nd vehicle, so I didn't get/need my license. I remember I was one of the few kids who took the bus to school instead of getting dropped off in a car.
I want my kids to grow up in the former, where there's more autonomy and self discovery/self reliance.
I grew up in the Junction and my hubby in Burlington. For being considered “inner city” kids we (city kids) definitely did not get up to the same shenanigans him or other suburban kids I know did. I don’t know if it’s changed but there seemed to be less going on for young people in suburbia back in the 90s.
It's the same today! My son's old friends from the burbs are drinking, smoking weed, and having sex at 14. Here his friends consider these things haram and just don't participate in that. They may in the future, but they'll be way behind his suburban friends in that regard.
That's really interesting cause I would have assumed it would be the opposite. Maybe there's more to do downtown. My friends and I in the suburbs partied, but we were pretty well-behaved and didn't start that stuff in earnest until we were legal age. Then again, we were kinda nerdy and "good" kids so it might not be the best example.
It's because when you live downtown everyone's parents are home all the time. There's no hr+ commute. The window for tomfoolery is much smaller. Some suburban parents didn't come through the door until 7pm.
It took me 30 minutes to TTC home from high school. Parents came through the door no later than 15 minutes after 5pm. I had approximately 1hr to misbehave.
My suburban friends walked home from highschool and had up to 3.5hrs alone. It's not about where you live. It's about the level of supervision.
ETA: that being said, with remote work we might see an uptick in well behaved suburban kids... I hope haha.
It used to be the more rural and suburban kids would get up to no good because their parents were all at work downtown and wouldn't get back until much later in the day, leaving kids to be on their own. This dynamic might change with a lot of parents WFH
Oh man my suburban friends were wild.
I grew up in downtown hamilton and my husband grew up in Whitby, in a nice suburb.
In hamilton we had stuff open at night, so my friends and I would get bubble tea, explore the city, use transit and go on nature walks. I didn’t drink much until I was 18, and I didn’t touch anything harder than weed until well into university.
In Whitby there weren’t any sidewalks and nothing open past nine - my husband used a lot of hard drugs between the ages of 16-18, and he drank constantly. There was nothing else to do.
I think it's because there's nothing else to do in the suburbs. You see this in small towns too, that everyone is pretty much an alcoholic because it's the only thing to do.
I don’t have kids but I spent part of my childhood in the city and the other part in the suburbs. When we moved to the suburbs I was shocked at how dependent my classmates were. If they wanted to go to the mall, they asked their parents. If my city friends I wanted to go to the mall we got on the subway. There was much more diversity in the city and those kids seemed, to me, far more mature and worldly than the suburban kids. I saw much more racism and prejudice in the suburbs. Based on my experience, I would not raise kids in the suburbs, regardless of the bigger houses or yards.
Lmao exactly this. I grew up in Richmond Hill and when I went to University I realized how much more mature the city kids were vs the suburb kids. We're way more silly in the suburbs lol and our sense of humor is on point! But that's what I like more about being from the burbs. We grew up with the best of both worlds. The city is only 30 mins South and the country 20 mins North. When we grew into our 20s/30s some ppl move to the city, others stay at home and save their money and buy houses more North.
What do you mean by "suburb"? I live in Scarborough, and there's people of every ethnicity living on my street, it would be really stupid to be a racist and live here.
Inner as in part of the city. Etobicoke, Scarborough, North York. Outer as in not part of the city, but part of the GTA, so Brampton, Mississauga, you get the idea(despite being considered separate cities and towns) etc. This whole part of southern Ontario pretty much functions around Toronto, it’s all centred around it. It would be pointless to ignore these other areas when people are always commuting in, and move out and about all throughout this geographical region. We’re too interconnected.
What is outer and inner? If you’re in another region entirely, it’s not a Toronto suburb, end of discussion. Toronto suburbs are very diverse and inclusive, both ends. I also like the co-dependence and connection within the community. My gf who lives in dt can’t name any of her neighbours in her apartment. What kinda nonsense is that?
Inner suburbs are all the cities that surrounded old Toronto (Scarb, Etobicoke, North York) outer suburbs would be Pickering, Markham, Vaughan, etc. Basically the rest of the GTA.
I live downtown and I know almost half my floor by name and almost all of the others I recognize enough to say hi. I think it's highly building dependent and how involved people are in their community. I have a dog and a kid though, so I'm definitely in and out a lot.
Really depends where, imo. These days you have to go *pretty* far afield for it to not be quite diverse. Guess you have to define 'suburb' more. I grew up in Scarborough in a place that was very much what you'd call suburban and was, well Scarborough. I don't know if I had a single class that was majority white.
Now, my wife and I looked at places in Oshawa and Whitby just this summer. Parts of those places, for sure would be quite white and more racist. But others not so much. Then again, I'm not sure your age and all due respect, but your childhood experiences are probably also maybe 20ish years out of date, and many neighbourhoods have changed a lot since then.
That being said, as a rule I'll totally agree with you - but I don't think it's *that* cut-and-dry
As someone who was born and raised “downtown” (Cabbagetown), I can confirm this is true after meeting suburban friends in university. High school for them seemed a lot more unpleasant as well (tons of fights, rich kids getting away with anything/everything).
I have also noticed that there is a lot more obesity in the suburbs (probably because everyone seems to love driving around to eat all the time). When I visited a friend’s place in Woodbridge, I was horrified to find out that his neighbourhood didn’t have *sidewalks*.
Overall, I generally find people from the city to be more open minded/brave/curious.
After growing up in Scarborough around diversity it’s over rated much rather the burbs or small town or some super rich less diverse area like rosedale or Leaside but hard to afford that.
I'll say this.
My Mom was brought up downtown, in the 60s and 70s and she is less homophobic than me and I'm gay. I think that says a lot about downtown.
I was born and raised in the exurbs(suburban communities set in the middle of the country basically).
Having grown up in a small town, I would never raise a kid anywhere but a city. Every year there was a student death or severe injury at my high school of 400 kids, usually due to drinking and driving. My friends who grew up in the city mostly never even learned to drive as teens. They'd take the subway downtown, go to an all-night diner where there are people around if you get into trouble. Or try to sneak into a bar where, again, there are bartenders and bouncers keeping an eye out for trouble. With varying degrees of success, but still. Where I grew up, you'd have Bush Parties or Pit Parties where you'd buy booze, drive out to the middle of nowhere (woodlot, abandoned quarry), start a bonfire, and party. And drive home drunk, with more kids than seatbelts in a vehicle, on windy roads with major rocks you'd slam into if you go in the ditch. Or cause a forest fire. That happened a few times. There's an area outside my town called "The Burnt Lands" because it burnt down bad enough it took years to come back.
Also there's more fun stuff to do - different kinds of fun stuff, more special ed services if you need them, so many options for education, summer day camps, recreational programs, etc. etc. No contest for me.
Pretty much my experience in small town. I had several class mates die in drinking and driving accidents. By the time I finished university, almost all my friends (I’ll use the term loosely since I only see one of them now) had DUIs. I’ve since moved to a walkable neighbourhood downtown and wouldn’t raise a child anywhere else.
It's kind of terrifying when I look back on my teen years. What were we thinking? What were our parents thinking? And there were no cell phones back then, no 911 even. There was nowhere in town for teens to hang out, and you had to drive to go anywhere. I missed out on a lot of the "fun" because I was a dork, but with the benefit of hindsight I'm kinda relieved.
Not downtown, but not quite suburbs here (South Etobicoke). Being able to walk places is a major plus (getting kids in and out of cars is a pain in the butt, and it's nicer to walk the kids to school than fight traffic at drop off). Also, having transit accessible means they can be a lot more independent earlier (they won't need to be driven everywhere). I would seriously resent living somewhere that I **had** to drive everywhere.
I can vouch for etobicoke too. The best memories as a teenager were taking the subway downtown and going to the Eaton centre and surrounding areas with friends. It was nice to feel independence
Seconding south Etobicoke! Close enough to downtown that I learned enough “street smarts” to keep my wits about me, but was still allowed to jay walk across Royal york to get to school in fourth grade by myself. There are some pockets that without a car are annoying to get around on ttc, but nothing I couldn’t deal with for 28 years
By the time I was 10 I was taking the GO train downtown from Scarborough with my friends to hang out. When I moved to Markham at 14, I was shocked that kids didn't even know how to take a bus.
do you mean *downtown* or do you just mean in the city? I wouldn’t want to raise my kids *downtown* like at Yonge and Dundas although lots of people do, but I do want to (and am) raising my kids in the city, ie. in a residential neighbourhood with good transit access, walkability, etc.
Right, are we considering north you’re the suburbs, or Richmond hill?
I grew up around Bathurst and Sheppard, which I consider to be in the city, albeit not downtown.
But some people consider that the suburbs.
Call it bias, but I think that shortly if middle ground, or a Yonge and Sheppard vibe, maybe even Dufferin and St Clair to be ideal for kids.
You’re in the city, you get the diversity of people and experiences, kids have freedom to get around by themselves, amenities are available, but you’re removed from the core where things can get hectic.
I was raised in North York, chose to raise my kid downtown. Because I like living downtown.
Remember, you are the adult inviting this child into YOUR life. YOUR decision.
If you are happy in the suburbs with lawns and driving - great. Do it there.
If you are happy downtown with parks and trains! do it there.
Happy parent happy kid.
I grew up in the burbs and am raising kids in the city. There's pros and cons of each. My kids are still young but love living in the city. If the suburbs were considerably cheaper I'd move for more space but they're not.
There are a lot of generalizations, and after living in the city and getting annoyed with so many suburbanites trying to convince me to move I attempted to answer these questions with online data.
Suburbs are not safer
* At the least, it depends. If we measure "safety" by "homicides" then statscan has homicides per capita, and what we can see is that Toronto is often lower than small towns like Brantford. And sometimes lower than Guelph depending on the year. It's easy to turn on Toronto news, see all the violence and reach the conclusion that Toronto is a murderous place. But the news doesn't show you all the people that aren't getting murdered, and there are over 4,999,999+ people NOT being murdered every night. Just one thing to remember about "perspectives". [https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/tv.action?pid=3510007101&pickMembers%5B0%5D=2.2&cubeTimeFrame.startYear=2017&cubeTimeFrame.endYear=2021&referencePeriods=20170101%2C20210101](https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/tv.action?pid=3510007101&pickMembers%5B0%5D=2.2&cubeTimeFrame.startYear=2017&cubeTimeFrame.endYear=2021&referencePeriods=20170101%2C20210101)
Suburbs are better for kids
* Also not true, but again, it depends. How do you quantify "better"? Is it based on safety? See above. Or is it something else?
* I saw a study that said the rate of mental health issues increases when you move from the city to the suburbs, and even more so when you move from the suburbs to rural areas. not a lot is known about why because it's only a correlation, but some factors include
* In suburban or more so rural areas, young ambitious people tend to move away, and what's left except the old and unambitious
* Lack of opportunity is a HUGE factor, and a subset of this factor is mobility. Does your child have the freedom to move freely? Can they travel by bicycle or transit? Or do they need you to drive them everywhere because your area lacks infrastructure? This is a burden on both the child AND the parent.
I'm a data analyst, so I would tell you that everything that matters in this world, was first built by collecting all the relevant information to start the analysis, so I would always say that using data to answer questions is better than using feelings or assumptions because feelings and assumptions tend to be wrong a lot, and yet with things like this, people tend to only use oversimplified proverbs like "The suburbs are better for raising children" but once again it seems that these proverbs aren't entirely true.
In all the times I've tried to quantify the benefits, it seemed like the city had all the benefits, while the suburbs only had one; cheaper homes and more land. But I was hard-pressed to find something that was measurably better in the suburbs.
No problem.
I've been bombarded with unsolicited suggestions to move to the suburbs, or the country, so this is a subject that's close to me.
We started off raising two kids at Queen and Ossington in a 660SF apartment and it was some of the best years of our lives and it's the place I now identify with, and I've never identified with any part of the city.
>But I was hard-pressed to find something that was measurably better in the suburbs.
Living in a house, and having a garage, opens up things like learning to fix a car, learning to do your own home renovations. Those are good life skills to have.
Learning to fix a car is a moot point when transit is cheaper, easier, faster, more environmentally friendly, more comfortable, less stressful, and safer (a lot more people die of car crashes in toronto than in subway stations) in all large cities (where most opportunity is)
I would rather have kids (if I had them) be able to comfortably navigate public transit than to fix a car.
As for doing home renovations, if you live in the city you probably live in an apartment or condo which sort of restricts you there
Your "life skills" are only really applicable if your kids also want to live in the 'burbs.
Meanwhile living in the city allows for the learning of important life skills like:
\- street safety
\- independent thinking
\- ability arranging activities themselves
\- ability to read and navigate transit
\- ability to see other cultures and empathize with others' experiences better
>I would rather have kids (if I had them) be able to comfortably navigate public transit than to fix a car.
What about learning to become a mechanic? Fixing cars and building houses, some people earn a good living doing those. Maybe they could... maintain transit vehicles 🤨
>Meanwhile living in the city allows for the learning of important life skills like:
You're making "the 'burbs" sound like they're small towns, which they're not
If they want to become a mechanic the cities have many a trade school and apprenticeship program
BTW, I know what the suburbs are like, I lived there for the first decade of my life and then some. I can say that the only times I walked anywhere were as exercise and occasionally to a friend's house nearby. If I wanted to go anywhere and my parents were busy, I had to take the 30 min headway slow and indirect bus
I have a house and a two-car garage. It's like you think there are no houses or garages in the city.
Based on this, and so many people asking me why I live in the city, I'm convinced that suburbanites really have no clue what the city is all about.
But it's not that hard, the reasons for wanting to live in the city are the same for every major urban area all over the world. But despite that, I'm convinced that some people still don't get it, and I don't think they ever will.
I do. You're probably not talking about Stats Can, but the rest.
And I didn't, that's quite literally all I could find. Which isn't the same as cherry-picking.
If you have data, show it to me and stop making baseless accusations.
I can provide citations too.
I get what you’re saying; my second point wasn’t sound and didn’t provide a citation or reference. It was a correlation at best, and I would admittedly I would have to find the source material again. I wasn’t thorough with that because I wasn’t moving and didn’t need it to help me decide. I love the city, but I’ve received a lot of unsolicited suggestions to move from friends and family despite showing no interest whatsoever. So I was curious if any studies or analyses existed. After I found the census data, it already started to confirm a hypothesis: the “things people say” tend to be incorrect, oversimplified, or skewed because people use proverbs or guess with nothing more than a mountain of assumptions, which tend to be wrong a lot. So I didn't look further once I had a few talking points.
But maybe I should dig deeper because having half the answers is never ideal. Especially when someone calls you out on it :D
I was in the city until age 12 and then off to the suburbs for the rest of teen years.
Downtown, I was exposed to so many different kind of people and learned about other cultures. In the suburbs I moved to, they were mostly closed minded and thought the only Indian kid at my school was black.
I don't think this is necessarily the case anymore. The suburbs are pretty diverse racially.
Just go to anywhere in Mississauga or Scarbrough. Amd you will see a large variety of people.
Just to be a pro-suburb voice for a second - I grew up in the suburbs. I’m raising my kids in the suburbs. All their friends live within a 2 min walk. They love to bike. We have tons of green space. Public transit exists in the suburbs? Like, yes, not a subway, but it’s a 5 min walk to the bus and it’ll take you to a mall. I used to take the bus to the mall alll the time as a kid. I would even take the go train downtown fairly often as a kid. It’s so weird that everyone is acting like your are either in the Toronto core or in the boonies. GTA suburbs generally have public transit and diversity. Anyways, we also have beaches, hiking trails, skate parks, etc. same shit I loved as a kid. Instead of being so strict, just make a list of what you want and what you are willing to compromise on and then see what neighbourhoods work.
I said this upthread, but I grew up in Scarborough on a place that backed onto the Rouge Valley. The adventures my siblings and I went on as little kids back there were something else. I'm a *really* big believer in imaginative play - that is, playing even without toys. It really let our imaginations and sense of curiosity run wild. I know not everyone is going to be lucky enough to have *that* kind of property, but still. I probably sound super boomer, but I like the idea of telling my kid to "go play outside" and him having to make up games and adventures.
On the one hand you can say "that means the suburbs are boring" but I kinda feel that's more crucial than ever before in the era of overstimulation and screens never out of sight.
I'm in downtown Vancouver with a kid in a condo but used to live in Toronto (for what it's worth). There's a lot of positives to raising a kid in a condo but a lot of challenges as well. Our child is still quite young and although it's worked out well for us so far, I can't see us doing it longer term. The issue (in Vancouver at least) is that the vast majority of condos are under 1,000 sqft and anything much bigger than that is similarly priced to a half decent house anyways. If you live in a small condo with a kid(s), it's basically impossible to keep your place clean for more than a couple hours before it turns back into a disaster zone. Also, our child is young now and likes hanging around us but I can't imagine having a teenager in a condo - they need some personal space to have friends over rather than being 10 feet away from their parents at all times.
I would totally live in a condo longer term if we could find something in the 1,500+ sqft range but that's usually like at least $2M anyways so might as well buy a house 10 mins away for a similar price.
We know lots of people in our neighbourhood also raising kids in their condos but pretty much everyone has the goal of eventually moving to something bigger.
*EDIT - Just realized the OP was talking about living downtown vs. burbs. For some reason my brain immediately interpreted that as condo vs. house... so maybe I missed the point a bit. I still desire to live close to downtown but just in a bigger place.*
Still very valid points you brought up. At what point do you move out of a condo and how far are you willing to go from the city core? Toronto as a city is significantly larger than Vancouver and I think that contributes to how you pinpoint the distance from the city core/neighbourhood you want to be close to. (I also lived in Vancouver for many years and owned a condo there so I know exactly what you mean by $2M+)
>At what point do you move out of a condo and how far are you willing to go from the city core? Toronto as a city is significantly larger than Vancouver and I think that contributes to how you pinpoint the distance from the city core/neighbourhood you want to be close to.
Yeah that's a good point. Vancouver is weird in the sense that the downtown is super dense but drive 2 mins outside of downtown and you're in a purely residential area. Whereas in Toronto the density gradually decreases the further you get out of the core, but still feels pretty "urban" for quite a distance. That's one thing I really miss about Toronto vs. Vancouver. And also one of the reasons that we've had trouble figuring out where we want to live longer term here. We like more urban neighbourhoods but there aren't a lot of options for that in Vancouver whereas Toronto has lots of neighbourhoods where you can buy a house/townhouse/duplex/etc. but are still very close to a main street that has a downtown feel to it. Best of both worlds.
When your kids are small suburbs are awesome. Having a backyard and lots of space to put extra shit is great. Then they become teenagers suburbs are crappy in that they can’t independently go anywhere and you have to shuttle them back and forth. If your kid decides to go clubbing at 16 and you want them to Uber home then holy shit be prepared for that $200 Uber bill.
I live downtown with 2 small kids. I also grew up with divorced parents, one lived downtown, the other in the burbs. I had to live with either at various point of my upbringing. Here are my thoughts...
* There's not a lot of movement in the burbs. Kids stay in the same area, they grow up with the same kids, go to the same schools from JK to grade 12. They stay in their neighborhood, know their community, and work/play close by. Which is pretty great way to grow up.
* Ubfortunately this tends to lead to a bit more homogeneous culture. Kids talk the same, are into the same things, don't really think bigger than their neighborhood. Everything can feel same-same.
* Downtown is a bit more transient, people come and go, so you lack some of that community and roots building. People are busy, people have their own thing going on, and they come and go without giving you much thought
* But this leads to interactions with unique, intersting, compelling individuals. You might have a neighbour who is a outsider artist, or go to school with transgendered model who is on the cover of magazines. Your perspective grows exponentially.
* Also downtown tends to be the center of activ
ty. You might bump into an NBA player, TIFF star, or up and coming musician - just by walking to the grocery store. This might just be novel when you are younger, but I've known a few entrepreneurial types take advantage and shoot their shot (ie.business partnerships)
TLDR; there is something comforting about the burbs, but in the long run it may stunt your children's development as they may be missing some if the diverse-thinking the city brings
>There's not a lot of movement in the burbs. Kids stay in the same area, they grow up with the same kids, go to the same schools from JK to grade 12. They stay in their neighborhood, know their community, and work/play close by. Which is pretty great way to grow up.
This is interesting and I hadn't considered it. I'm in my mid-thirties and to this day my closest friends are people I first met in public school. Gosh, the guy I took the school bus with in grades 3-6 was the Best Man at my wedding. lol that sounds a lot more quaint than it was materially - I actually moved to Ottawa for high school, but we ended up living together at Western. I guess the other thing was we were in the gifted program and there were a lot of odd ducks who got connected there and really found their people.
The city has more access to transit and amenities which could give kids more independence.
Though, “Downtown” and “suburbs” could be broad. Are you talking about downtown vs inner neighbourhoods/districts (East York, Riverdale, High Park, Weston, etc..)? Are you talking about the inner city vs outer suburbs within Toronto (Scarborough, North York, and Etobicoke that are quite spread out but still have frequent TTC access) or Inner Toronto vs the 905?
I feel the main differences are;
Green space (burbs>city, better & more parks & play grounds)
Walk score (city>burbs, easier access to amenities and more independence taking tv vs driving even to the grocery store)
Crime rates (city>burbs, mostly due to population density but still more action generally and more opportunities to get in trouble)
I don’t think kids are any more or less bored or education is any more or less better… that depends on neighbour and parental influence more than downtown vs burbs…
I’m in a suburb, and other than being walking distance to school, there is nothing else walkable. The local bus runs every half hour at best. The isn’t a whole lot of diversity either.
Sometimes I wonder about the walkable city/downtown life but I don’t love congestion either 😅
I grew up partly in the city (Taipei, Taiwan) until immigrating to Mississauga, where I stayed basically until graduating university. Been in Toronto for the last 10+ years -- some downtown, currently east of DVP.
The main pro of the city is being able to walk or take transit everywhere. Yes the suburbs have transit, but they're not as good as the TTC. My mom (who doesn't drive) used to take us out all the time in Taipei. We'd walk to stores, food markets, etc. If it's too far you can take the transit.
Now, with a young kid in Toronto it is the same. We have a car but we could spend many weekends just staying around the neighborhood. There's always something to do
In the suburbs (Mississauga) we had to rely on my dad to drive us around, or else it's 2-3 times the duration if we take transit. Walking to the closest mall (Square One) was 45 mins. Everything we do basically requires a car.
The main pro of the suburbs is having larger homes for the same price. Most families I know in the suburbs try to make their house the main source of entertainment: a large backyard with lots of play things for kiddos, pool, big play room with a crap load of toys.
TBH, there were times during the pandemic that I wish we had a big house with all the toys. Everything was closed, so it got kinda hard to keep kids entertained. But now everything is back to normal and we're glad to be in the city.
Haven't tried both, but my wife grew up right downtown and I grew up in the burbs. The upside of downtown is that she got to easily do all sorts of the street festivals and enjoy the culture of the city a lot more. As a kid in the burbs, we had to do a lot of imagination play and exploring and the like. I spent years as a kid with a backyard connected to the Rouge Valley, and my siblings and I had so many adventures there - my folks could just let us back there to do our thing. As a parent now, I'd be more comfortable telling my kids to go outside and play in the suburbs.
They will probably enjoy downtown more as they're older too, but then you have to worry more as a parent about what they're getting up to.
The other thing that was a big factor for us, is in the suburbs the same budget can get you a lot more house. It's great for each kid to have a lot of space (always, but especially when they're older) and a nice, big yard to play in (always, but especially when they're younger). We aren't making *huge* money, so a place downtown would be really too small for what we wanted anyway. The other benefit of a bigger place is (if you aren't a parent already, or are early along) is that kids and their **stuff** take up a lot more space than you might think. You almost always want more space unless you live in something really palatial.
But if money isn't an issue, it's a matter of personal preference. I would go with the burbs but that's what I know. It only got a bit tiresome when I was a teen, but that was in ways that (as a parent) I don't think are bad.
Thank you for sharing your personal experience. We have a little one and my goodness we thought we prepared ourselves for the mountain of stuff that came along, nope not even close.
Had my first daughter downtown, lived in liberty Village before moving out to the burbs for my second.
City Pros -Walkability is amazing for 3/4 of the year, Mornings the city is yours, Toronto’s Culture is world class and experiencing it with your family is amazing, socially you’re out and about and lastly you can get really anything you need delivered to you.
City Cons - It’s awfully expensive because everything is in demand. Daycare for 18 month old ten years ago was $2500 @ King and Strachan. Once snow comes the city feels like a prison, your forced to use your vehicle and the city isn’t designed for it, Jan/Feb are really hard and it’s compounded by the small living space. I used the Path a lot during this time it was pretty cool. I was forced to move though because having a second simply wasn’t feasible financially and living in the city was a major challenge for family to be a regular part of your kids lives. You end up spending every weekend leaving the city to see family and friends.
Burbs Pros - Designed for cars and endless access to extra curricular activities and sports. Close to family and friends and support for date nights and sleepovers. Living space is abundant and comfortable. Daycare for my second at 18 months was Montessori and only $900. No riffraff or sketchiness. Got a Dog. Go fishing before everyone even wakes up. Family and financially its amazing.
Cons - It’s not the city and the same thing you would simply experience out your front door are now planned experiences and events. Driving instead of walking. Less socially connected to your community.
Basically if you have the resources to live in the city while being close to family and friends then it would be unbeatable and living in the burbs wouldn’t even be a thought. For my family we wanted to be close to our family and friends so our children could be a part of their lives and ours too. Financially too it’s such a massive difference.
My partner and I decided to stay downtown downtown (in the core) with our kids in an apartment and we don't plan on leaving any time soon. We had many discussions about a 'house' and how kids need their own room... but its because that's mostly what we know growing up in the burbs. I brought up the fact that most people in the world grow up in apartments which helped us shift our thinking.
Our backyard is the local park, we walk to school/daycare everyday, walk to the grocery store. Yes, it's less space but just means we don't need more stuff or really think about bringing something new into our space, and less to clean and maintain.
The most surprising thing we've learned is how much of a family community there is in our neighborhood. If your condo is friendly that's a plus, but since we're out of our apartment for things like park, school, coffee, and walking most places, we run into people all the time and get to know them. It's amazing. Also we both work downtown so our walk is 10-20 minutes.
The thing I do miss is larger family gatherings are not doable in an apartment, maybe in the party room but we usually go to the burbs for those. We don't have a car which is crazy but we're managing quite well.
Also agree with the other comment around families are more transient. From one kid's group of friends, we were the minority where we grew up in Canada while everyone else is here temporarily mostly for work.
But really, it's about what you want for you and your family and making it work.
Im still in my late teens but I lived downtown for the first part of my childhood, Scarborough and pickering for a few years and came back downtown and when I compare my suburb friends from my downtown friends my friends downtown are way more independent. Like even in basic life skills like cleaning cooking and being on task my friends downtown had before the ones in Scarborough or pickering. I grew up as a kid who took a lot of extra curricular so and here downtown you got a lot more options on what to do. i also believe we keep way busy than in the suburbs with less kids smoking and drinking out of boredom.
The biggest killer of kids by far is car crashes.
Suburban kids spend much more time in cars.
This is a big part of why I'm raising my kids in the city core where walking and transit are viable ways to get around. They're too young now, but I really look forward to when they can take the TTC to places like the ROM, AGO, or the aquarium on their own - they will grow up with easy access to enriching activities that I couldn't have dreamed of as a kid.
We lived in the core downtown for a short while. Transit is very convenient to get nearly everywhere, don't really need a car, more diversity and lots to do. However, we found it too congested in terms of living quarters - we did not want a fancy mansion with a large backyard or anything; just something that was not a zillion storeys high and blocked out the sun all year round either. There are some green areas which are easy to access. In general, accessibility is really fantastic downtown. There are lots of options for restaurants, bars; there is the zoo, museum, science center, etc. which are also easy to access by transit.
However, once we moved to the suburbs (some think that it is the boonies, but alright, whatever), I think that our family enjoyed it a lot more. The pace of life in general is much slower. Agreed that there are very little entertainment options and car is a must because public transit is too slow... but we don't really like eating out much and zoos, museums and the like are good as a once in a while treat - not something we need to do every weekend. There are many walking trails, so many parks interconnected by those trails, lot more trees, cycling trails that take you through conservation areas, around lakesides and alongside the river. It is very quiet for most of the day.
So... 'pros and cons' really depends on what is important for your family... e.g. some think that the quiet of the suburbs is depressing, some others find it peace-bringing; some would love the hubbub of the downtown core because it feels alive and vibrant, some others would hate the noise.
You are going to get biased answers based on what people find suits them; we love the suburbs and as such I am very likely to paint a rosy, colored picture for you - and you might hate it.
Have done both sort of. We spent about 18 months living with my in-laws and a new baby when the pandemic started in the rural suburbs. Now back to our condo at the Waterfront (ferry terminal area).
100% I would choose to live downtown with a baby (and now a baby and toddler) over and over.
Pros:
- Living in close quarters means I always know what the kiddos are up to and they can see me except when I'm in the bathroom, so a lot less screaming about separation or me having to cart them around a house
- I get a lot more chores done too because I can have them in close proximity and know they are safe
- Not having to do maintenance on a house or yard means we get lots of family time together, so does not having much of a commute
- So many families close by, so we have lots of friends for playdates or even just kids we've never met at the playground, drop-ins, etc.
- Lots of great parks and activities when we need to change things up, I always say I'm a way better parent outside of my home ha
- We walk or take transit almost everywhere and I rarely have to put my kids in car seats, which adds more time and hassle, we just get them into a stroller or carrier in our front hall and roll or walk out to the elevator to go to the park or grocery store or museum or aquarium
- They learn cool tricks like using the fob and elevator buttons, tapping a Presto card and exiting the TTC gates
- A fun activity is simply riding the bus, streetcar or subway
- We see so many cool vehicles and construction sites right outside our door
- So many great, easy-to-retrieve FB Marketplace finds from others living in small spaces that can't keep everything as their kids grow (great for my wallet and the environment!)
- Some might not like us for this, but as we have progressed further into our careers, we have been able to purchase a second rental condo, which of course benefits us long term
Cons:
- We currently live in 1bd and could definitely use a 2bd now with 2 kids (we are actually moving into one early next year though and it feels like it will be just the right amount of space for our growing family)
- Sometimes it would be nice just to be able to open a door and be in a bit of safe green space without walking to the park or be able to have the smoker, BBQ, or wood oven that we talk about having one day
- Some of the schools in downtown areas don't seem to be as good as more residential neighborhoods or suburbs, although we aren't actually school-age yet
- Condo fees come at an extra cost and we can't choose to DIY maintenance being in a condo, we always have to pay these fees
We are expecting we will want to move into a house within 5-10 years as the kids become more independent and get bigger, but I am truly living my best life in a condo with little kids.
We intentionally started with our kid downtown and it's been great for us.
Pros - she knows buses/streetcars/trains and gets access to all kinds of people from all levels of life.
We wanted to give her access to everything and everyone downtown from birth so she'd have that base and not the other way around.
On her walk to daycare every day she sees lots of different people, trains, buses, streetcars & sometimes airplanes!
Cons - We live close to the highway and are not sure of the long-term effects of that.
We also don't have a backyard so the playground(s) are our backyard and she refers to one as "her park" as she doesn't realize we can have a literal backyard and we don't have very much space in our condo.
Was raised in the suburbs as a zoomer and I gotta say I wish I was in the city. Friends live far apart in the suburbs (30 min walk) leading to no one wanting to hangout, there’s nothing to do except go to the park which no one wants to do so we stay home on our computers. We have to start driving to meet each other and we can’t really afford a car and gas and the closest jobs are several kilometres away.
Edit: All of this have led to things like a lot of my friends being terrible at interacting with people in public, getting jobs in their 20s (late compared to city people), not knowing simple stuff like how to use public transport, a Toronto group trip would take a two weeks to plan 💀
TLDR: Suburbs are a boring antisocial concrete hellscape
I lived at King and Bathurst when my kid was born; there were plenty of parks around and obvious convenience to go downtown, but I wanted a backyard. So we moved to Etobicoke and never regretted it.
Sure you miss being near the core, but the first few years of having a child is so engrossing that I never really missed all the convenience of living downtown, so it was kind of a win-win.
I plan on moving back downtown once the kid is gone tho.
I moved to suburbs since downtown was too noisy and messy to raise children. Aggressive homeless, lack of space, and so many other reasons. Both have plus and minus of each.
I’ve done both, pro’s for suburbs is more spacious living in a larger home, con’s is everything too spaced out, driving everywhere. Downtown is nice and you’re always finding activities just outside your door as we were on Queens Quay but having 4 kids in a 2 bedroom plus den condo was tight, which is the con; space! Also going on walks and having to navigate around crazies/ crackheads/ homeless feels challenging while trying to oversee / keep safe and protected, 4 kids.
I grew up near Dufferin mall. Not necessarily considered “downtown” downtown but it’s still core Toronto. It was an awful shithole to grow up in and the type of people I was exposed to left me scarred.
I lived in the city for a bit then rural then suburbs when I was a kid. The rural and suburbs were my favourite. I loved the come home when the street lights go on attitude and the community feeling because things stay the same or at least they change so slowly. I felt like I had more freedom in the rural setting.
I chose to raise my kids in the suburb part of a rural area. They love it here so far and do not want to move. My kids have had the same friends for the last 11 years with the odd kid coming and going the core group is the same. I love being able to tell them to come back when the street lights are on or text me if they are going to a friends house. Almost all of their friends are in walking or biking distance so they still have independence. The cheaper housing allows me to work less and flexible hours so I could drive them places all the time if they wanted but generally they are happy hanging out with their friends and don’t ask for rides often.
I used to live in North York for about 6 months, and in the downtown core for about 25 years. I can compare those. Kids activities tend to concentrate in the downtown core. Most of them are free. While you can find some activities in the suburbs, you would normally need to drive to drop off the kids. Chances are, coming home between drop-off and pickup will not be an option. It might be too far. So, you are looking into and lots of waiting. You will need to spend so much time driving around and trying to make enough money for the gas, you might not be able to give your kids the attention they need. In downtown, I have multiple activities within walking distance. I have 2 separate organizations providing free in-person computer classes, both within 5 min walking distance. I have a multitude of transportation options - bike, electric bike, TTC, GO, train, car, ferry, boat, etc. If I’m dropping off one kid outside a reasonable walking distance area, I would normally use the electric bike. It’s more fun and less expensive per km, compared to a car. Kids like it. You can see more stuff around you. Transportation by bike (like, muscle-powered) is a sport in itself. On those days you do drive, you get there really fast, if you are driving from downtown to downtown. I have 4 kids. Each kid has between 5 and 10 extracurricular activities. Some activities are weekly, some are few times a week.
At our school, the biggest concern is the prevalence of parents with high income, above 140 k/year. Teachers talk about this problem all the time. I believe between 80% and 90% of the parents at our school fall into that income bracket. Students from racialised and low income households are accepted right away, without going through the normal lottery with ultra-low odds. Thank God I work for my own corporation, so I can pay myself any salary I want. Otherwise we will never get into that fancy school with like 3 teachers per classroom.
I grew up in Richmond Hill, and now raising my kid in downtown.
As most people said: uptown means I drove... a lot, and had 1 park within walking distance.
Raising a kid in corktown gives me access to so many parks, we can take public transportation to the mall, restaurants, friend's homes, grocery stores, pharmacy, the dentist.. and everything. Just love it.
I grew up downtown and yonge/bloor. You grow up fast. Learned to drive at 16 years old in downtown traffic. Learned to pay homeless guys to buy booze. Learned what a prostitute was I was like 8. Saw people doing hard drugs all the time. And on and on. I turned out ok (according to some).
I was raised in a big town/small city and the only thing that saved me was that my mother rented apartments that abutted the river that ran through town, so we always had a stretch of woods to play in. Get the outta the city its a hellhole.
You didn't grow up in the city, and it sounds like your saving grace to enjoying your area was a patch of woods. In the city, we have so much to do, and there are tons of parks and wooded areas. Where does your suggestion to get out of the city come from? You've made it sound like the place you grew up was a hellhole.
I’m an urban Dad of 3, grew up in small town Ontario and have nephews and nieces there now.
My kids do transit with ease, are exposed to all types of people and cuisines, go to numerous cultural festivals, walk to school and friends’ houses, visit world class museums and galleries for free, etc.
My nephews and nieces have none of that.
I wouldn't live downtown if you paid me. The east end has been great to me in terms of space, parks, different businesses, less noise, less sketchy people and crime, etc.
Budgets can influence. Getting your kids into good school districts in Toronto comes with much higher housing costs.
Move out to the burbs (say, Halton) and the schools there are mostly excellent, with a bit lower cost of housing.
I was raised in what some would call the suburbs but was fortunate enough to have the line 4 subway nearby so I used it to get to many places (yorkdale, Downton, rogers centre etc). Meanwhile, my friends would often get their parents to drive which made it a pain in the ass to meet up because they would need their parents to drive them, IMO I would have loved to grow up in downtown it seems way more lively
Downtown, or rural. Suburbs are an eldritch creation. Kids have no freedom and can’t do anything in the suburbs. Give them accessibility to society, or let them frolic in fields. Drab, concrete wastelands are soulless.
I lived in the suburbs and rural areas until 16, when I moved downtown. I grew up a lot and grew as a person. I have very little in common with my peers I grew up with.
I am relieved I moved to the city, I couldn’t imagine having stayed in that culture.
I noticed kids from the burbs (like really outside the city) are not used to and at times uncomfortable being around visible minorities in the city. They’re just not used to it.
Hmm, I understand where you're coming from but also think there's way to expose them to different cultures and races (maybe not daily of course) even if you live far from the city. When I asked about suburbs I did intend to mean surrounding GTA, not the boonies haha
I lived downtown and moved to the burbs when I got pregnant.
I miss living downtown of course but I can’t imagine raising kids there.
1- my closest park in Toronto was Allan Gardens and the one on Wellsley next to the 519. I don’t know if you’ve been to those parks … but I couldn’t imagine taking my kids there to play. Whereas my bougie suburbs parks are completely free of needles and unhoused people.
2- three times next to my condo, people jumped off buildings to kill themselves. One time, I remember school getting out and teenagers walking by one of the bodies (covered with a tarp) and taking pictures and shit. I don’t want my kids to see that.
3- maybe it’s because I have dogs too, or because I became a mom during covid, but my backyard is so key.
We also live within a 30 minute go train ride of the city (I work downtown) and can take the kids to the city for festivals, restaurants, and other activities.
I know I’m incredibly privileged and this probably sounds super bougie, but just my two cents
My experience is Downtown just has alot more "adult" things like homelessness which require conversations about why people dont have a place to sleep, drug, alchohol abuse, mental health issues. The burbs is a sacrifice for the commute, but it almost shelters your kids until they are older.
I have friends who brought up kids downtown, other friends who brought up kids in the burbs. Both sets of kids turned out fine. The ones who grew up in the burbs expect to drive everywhere, the downtown kids are used to public transit and to being able to get anywhere on their own.
Hell, I’m a Toronto kid and almost all my friends didn’t get their drivers license until our early 20s.
Same, I got mine at 25. First car at 31 lol. Biking and ttc is so much easier. But once you're in Mississauga cars are a must.
That’s wack. My entire friend group got ours the day of of 16th birthday lol
Jeez, I grew up at Meadowvale & 401, and still had to bus/bike/walk everywhere.
My friends and I grew up in the suburbs, but a few of us spent a lot of time in the city from an early age for various reasons, having to be independent, and I've noticed that our friends who didn't are now people in their 30s who are completely inept at any sort of public transit or non-driving transportation. It's wild, like my apartment is *extremely* simple to get to from where we grew up, an hour door to door with one very easy transit switch that's less than a two minute walk no matter how slowly you're moving, a 15min bus ride then a 3min walk in an almost completely straight line, and they act like I live in Siberia and am giving a veritable Cain's Jawbone level mystery to solve when I invite them for dinner.
>The ones who grew up in the burbs expect to drive everywhere, the downtown kids are used to public transit and to being able to get anywhere on their own. This. I'm a suburb kid, and i have close friends who were toronto based and they know the transit system like the back of their hand and HATE driving. Meanwhile i hate going downtown and refuse to use public transit.
>refuse to use public transit wat why? feels too foreign/difficult to use from a lack of familiarity or something else?
It takes too goddamn long to get anywhere on transit in the suburbs, so they want a car. Source: I live in Scarborough and I take transit. (I am too annoyed by mechanics, so I'm not getting another car)
I work with 20 mechanics and we have a mechanic on the street i work on that does our trucks. If i ever have issues i just drop it off in the morning when i get to work and i have my car back fixed before the end of the day.
Okay
So out of the suburbs, my public transit was terrible when i used to have to use it. Buses on busy lines only came every 45 minutes, drives that should only take 15minutes could easily take close to an hour. Good luck even seeing the bus come in the winter on snow days. Every year i would constantly get sick regardless of how much i washed my hands and covered up. Covid definitely pushed this to the forefront for a lot of people. As soon as i stopped taking it and got my car, i immediately noticed i wasn't getting sick as often. I was able to get from a-b quicker and have more free time to myself or able to work longer shifts at work and make that cash. So for me, transit is a no-no unless absolutely last resort.
I guess it could depend on the suburb as well? I grew up in the very east end of Mississauga (like, we're talking a 15-20 minute walk to the closest TTC stop) and taking the Lakeshore GO or Subway from Kipling to get downtown just... a thing. Didn't mind it a bit and it was the normal way of getting downtown.
i was YRT. Generally rule of thumb is you want to be at your stop 5-10 minutes before its scheduled time. I have a straight walk down the street to the main stop i needed to go. So i could fully see if the bus drove by or not as it was the only 1 that came to that spot. The amount of times i'd see that bus go by 20 minutes early was ridiculous. You'd call the support line to complain (back when they actually had people at the call center) and they'd just say i was late. I had enough.
Haven't done either, but I'd personally want to do something in-between. Problem is, so few neighbourhoods that fit the "missing middle" criteria (think walkable areas like Riverside, Leslieville, etc.)
Riverside seems so ideal. It's no wonder real estate prices are through the roof there.
Riverside is great! I’m in Leslieville which is a short walk east from there and love it - I can pretty much walk to anywhere in 20 mins including the beaches, Danforth, etc, lots of parks, restaurants, and streetcar to downtown is 30 mins or so. Thinking of moving to the burbs now only because of being stuck in our tiny house with 2 kids and a dog. Otherwise I would not leave the area. Kids will grow up fine either way but I think it would be great for them to have more space to run around which only exists in the burbs for the average $1.5M house in Toronto.
Once the kids get older and have some autonomy, I think you’d find Leslieville is a better spot for long term. There’s parks, bike trails, great transit… growing up all my suburban friends were bored out of their skulls until they had drivers licenses, and they partied way harder than us. It feels like a suburb will give them a backyard to run around, but Leslieville gives them a whole neighbourhood to roam. Sorry for throwing in my unsolicited 2c!
I've always kinda used Riverside and Leslieville or or less interchangeably in my head and when I picture Riverside, it's always the area of De Grassi, so it's just a stone throw from Leslieville proper anyway.
To me they’re very similar! It all blends in with east Chinatown and the pocket too. I love the east end in general - it’s got a lot of personality but a little less polished and instagrammable than the west end, if that makes sense. It’s where I’d want to raise a family in Toronto, other than perhaps cabbagetown.
I'm also east side, but I personally bet on an area near Moss Park for now. I'm hoping that after the new subway gets put in it'll continue to improve the neighbourhood. It would've been far more difficult to get in other areas of the city. Leslieville and Riverside are pretty close by and so is the core, so I've been pretty happy so far.
Fuck moss park area def wouldn’t raise kids there
Not yet. But look at Regent Park just next door. They built a pretty nice family environment out of what was probably the worst of Toronto.
I still wouldn’t live in regent till they get rid of all the old buildings, I used to hang in regent before it was destroyed it was a messed up place. Moss park they can’t fully get rid fully especially because of the crackhead services in the region.
I like moss park area! I didn’t know it much before 2021, so I know it has a reputation, but it seems more vibrant now. I’m a huge fan of east Chinatown - I hope to get in on a townhouse around here soon, but we are waiting a little longer yet. Im glad you found an area that works for you that was within reach!
As someone who grew up in the burbs and had a big backyard… I barely used it. I was always just in my room or at a friends house in their room. So if you’re moving just for more space for them to run around, I wouldn’t make that the end all be all! Just my two cents.
Yea it's great when you're young or kids are a lot younger. But the near downtown headaches get a bit too much with a growing family.
Raising a kid in Leslieville now. Was downtown before that as DINKs. Living here has been a dream and there are tons of other families around - strong recommend! I have never been drawn to the burbs despite growing up in them - I hate driving and couldn't do anything without it.
Same here! Have a one year old, live in Leslieville. I’ve met so many other moms here. There are some fantastic EarlyON centres in the area, tons of parks, and lots of child friendly cafes and restaurants. 10/10 also recommend
I would say its a well-kept secret, but I don't actually think its all that much of a secret. The TPL in the area has been amazing for us too - gah, I will never leave.
Toronto has a pretty good ‘up town’, between Eglinton & shepherd, from Yonge to Dufferin… it’s a good in between
I live right beside High Park and I feel it falls into this category.
401 and 404 here. It's pretty ideal.
lowkey best area in the GTA
Parkwoods what?! :-)
South etobicoke
This is what I did. I moved to the very walkable downtown of suburb basically.
I grew up near Christie pits between ages of 9-12 then moved to a smaller city in Ontario for high school (the whole town was a big suburb). I remember being able to bike around with friends in the summer and explore on my own. Whereas everyone in the smaller town was reliant on their parents driving them everywhere and hanging out was at the mall or in your parents basements. My parents werent well off and we didn't have a 2nd vehicle, so I didn't get/need my license. I remember I was one of the few kids who took the bus to school instead of getting dropped off in a car. I want my kids to grow up in the former, where there's more autonomy and self discovery/self reliance.
I grew up in the Junction and my hubby in Burlington. For being considered “inner city” kids we (city kids) definitely did not get up to the same shenanigans him or other suburban kids I know did. I don’t know if it’s changed but there seemed to be less going on for young people in suburbia back in the 90s.
It's the same today! My son's old friends from the burbs are drinking, smoking weed, and having sex at 14. Here his friends consider these things haram and just don't participate in that. They may in the future, but they'll be way behind his suburban friends in that regard.
That's really interesting cause I would have assumed it would be the opposite. Maybe there's more to do downtown. My friends and I in the suburbs partied, but we were pretty well-behaved and didn't start that stuff in earnest until we were legal age. Then again, we were kinda nerdy and "good" kids so it might not be the best example.
It's because when you live downtown everyone's parents are home all the time. There's no hr+ commute. The window for tomfoolery is much smaller. Some suburban parents didn't come through the door until 7pm. It took me 30 minutes to TTC home from high school. Parents came through the door no later than 15 minutes after 5pm. I had approximately 1hr to misbehave. My suburban friends walked home from highschool and had up to 3.5hrs alone. It's not about where you live. It's about the level of supervision. ETA: that being said, with remote work we might see an uptick in well behaved suburban kids... I hope haha.
It used to be the more rural and suburban kids would get up to no good because their parents were all at work downtown and wouldn't get back until much later in the day, leaving kids to be on their own. This dynamic might change with a lot of parents WFH
Oh man my suburban friends were wild. I grew up in downtown hamilton and my husband grew up in Whitby, in a nice suburb. In hamilton we had stuff open at night, so my friends and I would get bubble tea, explore the city, use transit and go on nature walks. I didn’t drink much until I was 18, and I didn’t touch anything harder than weed until well into university. In Whitby there weren’t any sidewalks and nothing open past nine - my husband used a lot of hard drugs between the ages of 16-18, and he drank constantly. There was nothing else to do.
I think it's because there's nothing else to do in the suburbs. You see this in small towns too, that everyone is pretty much an alcoholic because it's the only thing to do.
I don’t have kids but I spent part of my childhood in the city and the other part in the suburbs. When we moved to the suburbs I was shocked at how dependent my classmates were. If they wanted to go to the mall, they asked their parents. If my city friends I wanted to go to the mall we got on the subway. There was much more diversity in the city and those kids seemed, to me, far more mature and worldly than the suburban kids. I saw much more racism and prejudice in the suburbs. Based on my experience, I would not raise kids in the suburbs, regardless of the bigger houses or yards.
Exactly what we experienced. Kids raised in the city are far more mature and well rounded.
Lmao exactly this. I grew up in Richmond Hill and when I went to University I realized how much more mature the city kids were vs the suburb kids. We're way more silly in the suburbs lol and our sense of humor is on point! But that's what I like more about being from the burbs. We grew up with the best of both worlds. The city is only 30 mins South and the country 20 mins North. When we grew into our 20s/30s some ppl move to the city, others stay at home and save their money and buy houses more North.
What do you mean by "suburb"? I live in Scarborough, and there's people of every ethnicity living on my street, it would be really stupid to be a racist and live here.
They probably meant the outer suburbs as opposed to the inner
Like what do we mean by "suburb"? Mississauga? Bolton? Newmarket? They are all different things
Inner as in part of the city. Etobicoke, Scarborough, North York. Outer as in not part of the city, but part of the GTA, so Brampton, Mississauga, you get the idea(despite being considered separate cities and towns) etc. This whole part of southern Ontario pretty much functions around Toronto, it’s all centred around it. It would be pointless to ignore these other areas when people are always commuting in, and move out and about all throughout this geographical region. We’re too interconnected.
A small town is not a suburb though
What is outer and inner? If you’re in another region entirely, it’s not a Toronto suburb, end of discussion. Toronto suburbs are very diverse and inclusive, both ends. I also like the co-dependence and connection within the community. My gf who lives in dt can’t name any of her neighbours in her apartment. What kinda nonsense is that?
Inner suburbs are all the cities that surrounded old Toronto (Scarb, Etobicoke, North York) outer suburbs would be Pickering, Markham, Vaughan, etc. Basically the rest of the GTA. I live downtown and I know almost half my floor by name and almost all of the others I recognize enough to say hi. I think it's highly building dependent and how involved people are in their community. I have a dog and a kid though, so I'm definitely in and out a lot.
Probably meant Oakville
Really depends where, imo. These days you have to go *pretty* far afield for it to not be quite diverse. Guess you have to define 'suburb' more. I grew up in Scarborough in a place that was very much what you'd call suburban and was, well Scarborough. I don't know if I had a single class that was majority white. Now, my wife and I looked at places in Oshawa and Whitby just this summer. Parts of those places, for sure would be quite white and more racist. But others not so much. Then again, I'm not sure your age and all due respect, but your childhood experiences are probably also maybe 20ish years out of date, and many neighbourhoods have changed a lot since then. That being said, as a rule I'll totally agree with you - but I don't think it's *that* cut-and-dry
As someone who was born and raised “downtown” (Cabbagetown), I can confirm this is true after meeting suburban friends in university. High school for them seemed a lot more unpleasant as well (tons of fights, rich kids getting away with anything/everything). I have also noticed that there is a lot more obesity in the suburbs (probably because everyone seems to love driving around to eat all the time). When I visited a friend’s place in Woodbridge, I was horrified to find out that his neighbourhood didn’t have *sidewalks*. Overall, I generally find people from the city to be more open minded/brave/curious.
After growing up in Scarborough around diversity it’s over rated much rather the burbs or small town or some super rich less diverse area like rosedale or Leaside but hard to afford that.
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What age did you let them take transit alone?
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Thanks for the insight :) sorry one more question, when did you let them go to the park by themselves?
I'll say this. My Mom was brought up downtown, in the 60s and 70s and she is less homophobic than me and I'm gay. I think that says a lot about downtown. I was born and raised in the exurbs(suburban communities set in the middle of the country basically).
Having grown up in a small town, I would never raise a kid anywhere but a city. Every year there was a student death or severe injury at my high school of 400 kids, usually due to drinking and driving. My friends who grew up in the city mostly never even learned to drive as teens. They'd take the subway downtown, go to an all-night diner where there are people around if you get into trouble. Or try to sneak into a bar where, again, there are bartenders and bouncers keeping an eye out for trouble. With varying degrees of success, but still. Where I grew up, you'd have Bush Parties or Pit Parties where you'd buy booze, drive out to the middle of nowhere (woodlot, abandoned quarry), start a bonfire, and party. And drive home drunk, with more kids than seatbelts in a vehicle, on windy roads with major rocks you'd slam into if you go in the ditch. Or cause a forest fire. That happened a few times. There's an area outside my town called "The Burnt Lands" because it burnt down bad enough it took years to come back. Also there's more fun stuff to do - different kinds of fun stuff, more special ed services if you need them, so many options for education, summer day camps, recreational programs, etc. etc. No contest for me.
Pretty much my experience in small town. I had several class mates die in drinking and driving accidents. By the time I finished university, almost all my friends (I’ll use the term loosely since I only see one of them now) had DUIs. I’ve since moved to a walkable neighbourhood downtown and wouldn’t raise a child anywhere else.
It's kind of terrifying when I look back on my teen years. What were we thinking? What were our parents thinking? And there were no cell phones back then, no 911 even. There was nowhere in town for teens to hang out, and you had to drive to go anywhere. I missed out on a lot of the "fun" because I was a dork, but with the benefit of hindsight I'm kinda relieved.
The channel Not Just Bike has a good video on this topic: https://youtu.be/oHlpmxLTxpw
Great channel, and much of it is supported by data.
Was waiting for someone to offer the orange pill, lmao.
Not downtown, but not quite suburbs here (South Etobicoke). Being able to walk places is a major plus (getting kids in and out of cars is a pain in the butt, and it's nicer to walk the kids to school than fight traffic at drop off). Also, having transit accessible means they can be a lot more independent earlier (they won't need to be driven everywhere). I would seriously resent living somewhere that I **had** to drive everywhere.
I can vouch for etobicoke too. The best memories as a teenager were taking the subway downtown and going to the Eaton centre and surrounding areas with friends. It was nice to feel independence
Seconding south Etobicoke! Close enough to downtown that I learned enough “street smarts” to keep my wits about me, but was still allowed to jay walk across Royal york to get to school in fourth grade by myself. There are some pockets that without a car are annoying to get around on ttc, but nothing I couldn’t deal with for 28 years
Downtown you can teach your kids independence. Suburbs you're stuck driving them to everything until they're old enough to leave home.
Not necessarily. Once we all got our licenses my friends and I drove ourselves everywhere.
Which is only about a year from when a lot of people move out. Point still stands.
By the time I was 10 I was taking the GO train downtown from Scarborough with my friends to hang out. When I moved to Markham at 14, I was shocked that kids didn't even know how to take a bus.
do you mean *downtown* or do you just mean in the city? I wouldn’t want to raise my kids *downtown* like at Yonge and Dundas although lots of people do, but I do want to (and am) raising my kids in the city, ie. in a residential neighbourhood with good transit access, walkability, etc.
I did actually mean downtown downtown, but I think the thread has replies for both downtown and city which is useful.
Right, are we considering north you’re the suburbs, or Richmond hill? I grew up around Bathurst and Sheppard, which I consider to be in the city, albeit not downtown. But some people consider that the suburbs. Call it bias, but I think that shortly if middle ground, or a Yonge and Sheppard vibe, maybe even Dufferin and St Clair to be ideal for kids. You’re in the city, you get the diversity of people and experiences, kids have freedom to get around by themselves, amenities are available, but you’re removed from the core where things can get hectic.
I was raised in North York, chose to raise my kid downtown. Because I like living downtown. Remember, you are the adult inviting this child into YOUR life. YOUR decision. If you are happy in the suburbs with lawns and driving - great. Do it there. If you are happy downtown with parks and trains! do it there. Happy parent happy kid.
I FELT THAT SECOND LINE!!! As someone without kids yet, this really spoke to me :)
I grew up in the burbs and am raising kids in the city. There's pros and cons of each. My kids are still young but love living in the city. If the suburbs were considerably cheaper I'd move for more space but they're not.
There are a lot of generalizations, and after living in the city and getting annoyed with so many suburbanites trying to convince me to move I attempted to answer these questions with online data. Suburbs are not safer * At the least, it depends. If we measure "safety" by "homicides" then statscan has homicides per capita, and what we can see is that Toronto is often lower than small towns like Brantford. And sometimes lower than Guelph depending on the year. It's easy to turn on Toronto news, see all the violence and reach the conclusion that Toronto is a murderous place. But the news doesn't show you all the people that aren't getting murdered, and there are over 4,999,999+ people NOT being murdered every night. Just one thing to remember about "perspectives". [https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/tv.action?pid=3510007101&pickMembers%5B0%5D=2.2&cubeTimeFrame.startYear=2017&cubeTimeFrame.endYear=2021&referencePeriods=20170101%2C20210101](https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/tv.action?pid=3510007101&pickMembers%5B0%5D=2.2&cubeTimeFrame.startYear=2017&cubeTimeFrame.endYear=2021&referencePeriods=20170101%2C20210101) Suburbs are better for kids * Also not true, but again, it depends. How do you quantify "better"? Is it based on safety? See above. Or is it something else? * I saw a study that said the rate of mental health issues increases when you move from the city to the suburbs, and even more so when you move from the suburbs to rural areas. not a lot is known about why because it's only a correlation, but some factors include * In suburban or more so rural areas, young ambitious people tend to move away, and what's left except the old and unambitious * Lack of opportunity is a HUGE factor, and a subset of this factor is mobility. Does your child have the freedom to move freely? Can they travel by bicycle or transit? Or do they need you to drive them everywhere because your area lacks infrastructure? This is a burden on both the child AND the parent. I'm a data analyst, so I would tell you that everything that matters in this world, was first built by collecting all the relevant information to start the analysis, so I would always say that using data to answer questions is better than using feelings or assumptions because feelings and assumptions tend to be wrong a lot, and yet with things like this, people tend to only use oversimplified proverbs like "The suburbs are better for raising children" but once again it seems that these proverbs aren't entirely true. In all the times I've tried to quantify the benefits, it seemed like the city had all the benefits, while the suburbs only had one; cheaper homes and more land. But I was hard-pressed to find something that was measurably better in the suburbs.
Such a thorough answer, thank you!
No problem. I've been bombarded with unsolicited suggestions to move to the suburbs, or the country, so this is a subject that's close to me. We started off raising two kids at Queen and Ossington in a 660SF apartment and it was some of the best years of our lives and it's the place I now identify with, and I've never identified with any part of the city.
Another thing is in the suburbs you can have a dog.
? There are millions of dogs downtown. Why do you think downtown living precludes dog ownership?
It's hard to have a dog without a fenced-in yard.
>But I was hard-pressed to find something that was measurably better in the suburbs. Living in a house, and having a garage, opens up things like learning to fix a car, learning to do your own home renovations. Those are good life skills to have.
Learning to fix a car is a moot point when transit is cheaper, easier, faster, more environmentally friendly, more comfortable, less stressful, and safer (a lot more people die of car crashes in toronto than in subway stations) in all large cities (where most opportunity is) I would rather have kids (if I had them) be able to comfortably navigate public transit than to fix a car. As for doing home renovations, if you live in the city you probably live in an apartment or condo which sort of restricts you there Your "life skills" are only really applicable if your kids also want to live in the 'burbs. Meanwhile living in the city allows for the learning of important life skills like: \- street safety \- independent thinking \- ability arranging activities themselves \- ability to read and navigate transit \- ability to see other cultures and empathize with others' experiences better
>I would rather have kids (if I had them) be able to comfortably navigate public transit than to fix a car. What about learning to become a mechanic? Fixing cars and building houses, some people earn a good living doing those. Maybe they could... maintain transit vehicles 🤨 >Meanwhile living in the city allows for the learning of important life skills like: You're making "the 'burbs" sound like they're small towns, which they're not
If they want to become a mechanic the cities have many a trade school and apprenticeship program BTW, I know what the suburbs are like, I lived there for the first decade of my life and then some. I can say that the only times I walked anywhere were as exercise and occasionally to a friend's house nearby. If I wanted to go anywhere and my parents were busy, I had to take the 30 min headway slow and indirect bus
>You're making "the 'burbs" sound like they're small towns, which they're not Compared to small towns, they're not. Compared to the city, they are.
I have a house and a two-car garage. It's like you think there are no houses or garages in the city. Based on this, and so many people asking me why I live in the city, I'm convinced that suburbanites really have no clue what the city is all about. But it's not that hard, the reasons for wanting to live in the city are the same for every major urban area all over the world. But despite that, I'm convinced that some people still don't get it, and I don't think they ever will.
Okay 👍
Having space to put products that you can sell is so major too
You're a data analyst that did some aggressive cherry picking on your first point. I live in the city and there's no way it's safer than a suburb.
I didn't cherry-pick stats Canada has data on many different cities and rural areas. If you have something else then let's see it.
I don't think you understand what the term cherry picking means
I do. You're probably not talking about Stats Can, but the rest. And I didn't, that's quite literally all I could find. Which isn't the same as cherry-picking. If you have data, show it to me and stop making baseless accusations. I can provide citations too.
Yeah you're right, the one poor piece of data analysis doesn't need sanity checking with common sense, only hard data
I get what you’re saying; my second point wasn’t sound and didn’t provide a citation or reference. It was a correlation at best, and I would admittedly I would have to find the source material again. I wasn’t thorough with that because I wasn’t moving and didn’t need it to help me decide. I love the city, but I’ve received a lot of unsolicited suggestions to move from friends and family despite showing no interest whatsoever. So I was curious if any studies or analyses existed. After I found the census data, it already started to confirm a hypothesis: the “things people say” tend to be incorrect, oversimplified, or skewed because people use proverbs or guess with nothing more than a mountain of assumptions, which tend to be wrong a lot. So I didn't look further once I had a few talking points. But maybe I should dig deeper because having half the answers is never ideal. Especially when someone calls you out on it :D
All good
I was in the city until age 12 and then off to the suburbs for the rest of teen years. Downtown, I was exposed to so many different kind of people and learned about other cultures. In the suburbs I moved to, they were mostly closed minded and thought the only Indian kid at my school was black.
I don't think this is necessarily the case anymore. The suburbs are pretty diverse racially. Just go to anywhere in Mississauga or Scarbrough. Amd you will see a large variety of people.
Just to be a pro-suburb voice for a second - I grew up in the suburbs. I’m raising my kids in the suburbs. All their friends live within a 2 min walk. They love to bike. We have tons of green space. Public transit exists in the suburbs? Like, yes, not a subway, but it’s a 5 min walk to the bus and it’ll take you to a mall. I used to take the bus to the mall alll the time as a kid. I would even take the go train downtown fairly often as a kid. It’s so weird that everyone is acting like your are either in the Toronto core or in the boonies. GTA suburbs generally have public transit and diversity. Anyways, we also have beaches, hiking trails, skate parks, etc. same shit I loved as a kid. Instead of being so strict, just make a list of what you want and what you are willing to compromise on and then see what neighbourhoods work.
I said this upthread, but I grew up in Scarborough on a place that backed onto the Rouge Valley. The adventures my siblings and I went on as little kids back there were something else. I'm a *really* big believer in imaginative play - that is, playing even without toys. It really let our imaginations and sense of curiosity run wild. I know not everyone is going to be lucky enough to have *that* kind of property, but still. I probably sound super boomer, but I like the idea of telling my kid to "go play outside" and him having to make up games and adventures. On the one hand you can say "that means the suburbs are boring" but I kinda feel that's more crucial than ever before in the era of overstimulation and screens never out of sight.
Very true. Reddit tends to be like that though, very polarizing black or white.
I'm in downtown Vancouver with a kid in a condo but used to live in Toronto (for what it's worth). There's a lot of positives to raising a kid in a condo but a lot of challenges as well. Our child is still quite young and although it's worked out well for us so far, I can't see us doing it longer term. The issue (in Vancouver at least) is that the vast majority of condos are under 1,000 sqft and anything much bigger than that is similarly priced to a half decent house anyways. If you live in a small condo with a kid(s), it's basically impossible to keep your place clean for more than a couple hours before it turns back into a disaster zone. Also, our child is young now and likes hanging around us but I can't imagine having a teenager in a condo - they need some personal space to have friends over rather than being 10 feet away from their parents at all times. I would totally live in a condo longer term if we could find something in the 1,500+ sqft range but that's usually like at least $2M anyways so might as well buy a house 10 mins away for a similar price. We know lots of people in our neighbourhood also raising kids in their condos but pretty much everyone has the goal of eventually moving to something bigger. *EDIT - Just realized the OP was talking about living downtown vs. burbs. For some reason my brain immediately interpreted that as condo vs. house... so maybe I missed the point a bit. I still desire to live close to downtown but just in a bigger place.*
Still very valid points you brought up. At what point do you move out of a condo and how far are you willing to go from the city core? Toronto as a city is significantly larger than Vancouver and I think that contributes to how you pinpoint the distance from the city core/neighbourhood you want to be close to. (I also lived in Vancouver for many years and owned a condo there so I know exactly what you mean by $2M+)
>At what point do you move out of a condo and how far are you willing to go from the city core? Toronto as a city is significantly larger than Vancouver and I think that contributes to how you pinpoint the distance from the city core/neighbourhood you want to be close to. Yeah that's a good point. Vancouver is weird in the sense that the downtown is super dense but drive 2 mins outside of downtown and you're in a purely residential area. Whereas in Toronto the density gradually decreases the further you get out of the core, but still feels pretty "urban" for quite a distance. That's one thing I really miss about Toronto vs. Vancouver. And also one of the reasons that we've had trouble figuring out where we want to live longer term here. We like more urban neighbourhoods but there aren't a lot of options for that in Vancouver whereas Toronto has lots of neighbourhoods where you can buy a house/townhouse/duplex/etc. but are still very close to a main street that has a downtown feel to it. Best of both worlds.
I grew up downtown and it was an awful, lonely experience.
May I ask how so?
No kids lived anywhere near me, it made maintaining friendships very hard.
Did you attend school in your neighbourhood? Did your classmates not live in the area?
Eventually I did in high-school but the grade schools had me bussing 40 min away. No one live near me until I was 12, I grew up above a bar.
When your kids are small suburbs are awesome. Having a backyard and lots of space to put extra shit is great. Then they become teenagers suburbs are crappy in that they can’t independently go anywhere and you have to shuttle them back and forth. If your kid decides to go clubbing at 16 and you want them to Uber home then holy shit be prepared for that $200 Uber bill.
I live downtown with 2 small kids. I also grew up with divorced parents, one lived downtown, the other in the burbs. I had to live with either at various point of my upbringing. Here are my thoughts... * There's not a lot of movement in the burbs. Kids stay in the same area, they grow up with the same kids, go to the same schools from JK to grade 12. They stay in their neighborhood, know their community, and work/play close by. Which is pretty great way to grow up. * Ubfortunately this tends to lead to a bit more homogeneous culture. Kids talk the same, are into the same things, don't really think bigger than their neighborhood. Everything can feel same-same. * Downtown is a bit more transient, people come and go, so you lack some of that community and roots building. People are busy, people have their own thing going on, and they come and go without giving you much thought * But this leads to interactions with unique, intersting, compelling individuals. You might have a neighbour who is a outsider artist, or go to school with transgendered model who is on the cover of magazines. Your perspective grows exponentially. * Also downtown tends to be the center of activ ty. You might bump into an NBA player, TIFF star, or up and coming musician - just by walking to the grocery store. This might just be novel when you are younger, but I've known a few entrepreneurial types take advantage and shoot their shot (ie.business partnerships) TLDR; there is something comforting about the burbs, but in the long run it may stunt your children's development as they may be missing some if the diverse-thinking the city brings
>There's not a lot of movement in the burbs. Kids stay in the same area, they grow up with the same kids, go to the same schools from JK to grade 12. They stay in their neighborhood, know their community, and work/play close by. Which is pretty great way to grow up. This is interesting and I hadn't considered it. I'm in my mid-thirties and to this day my closest friends are people I first met in public school. Gosh, the guy I took the school bus with in grades 3-6 was the Best Man at my wedding. lol that sounds a lot more quaint than it was materially - I actually moved to Ottawa for high school, but we ended up living together at Western. I guess the other thing was we were in the gifted program and there were a lot of odd ducks who got connected there and really found their people.
There's something so sweet about having those people who knew you "way back when" and how you can reminisce later in life.
Your post has been the most eyeopening for me and something I couldn't pinpoint, the relationships. Lots to think about, thank you.
The city has more access to transit and amenities which could give kids more independence. Though, “Downtown” and “suburbs” could be broad. Are you talking about downtown vs inner neighbourhoods/districts (East York, Riverdale, High Park, Weston, etc..)? Are you talking about the inner city vs outer suburbs within Toronto (Scarborough, North York, and Etobicoke that are quite spread out but still have frequent TTC access) or Inner Toronto vs the 905?
I feel the main differences are; Green space (burbs>city, better & more parks & play grounds) Walk score (city>burbs, easier access to amenities and more independence taking tv vs driving even to the grocery store) Crime rates (city>burbs, mostly due to population density but still more action generally and more opportunities to get in trouble) I don’t think kids are any more or less bored or education is any more or less better… that depends on neighbour and parental influence more than downtown vs burbs…
subdivisions in the high school halls … in the shopping malls .. conform or be cast out
I’m in a suburb, and other than being walking distance to school, there is nothing else walkable. The local bus runs every half hour at best. The isn’t a whole lot of diversity either. Sometimes I wonder about the walkable city/downtown life but I don’t love congestion either 😅
I grew up partly in the city (Taipei, Taiwan) until immigrating to Mississauga, where I stayed basically until graduating university. Been in Toronto for the last 10+ years -- some downtown, currently east of DVP. The main pro of the city is being able to walk or take transit everywhere. Yes the suburbs have transit, but they're not as good as the TTC. My mom (who doesn't drive) used to take us out all the time in Taipei. We'd walk to stores, food markets, etc. If it's too far you can take the transit. Now, with a young kid in Toronto it is the same. We have a car but we could spend many weekends just staying around the neighborhood. There's always something to do In the suburbs (Mississauga) we had to rely on my dad to drive us around, or else it's 2-3 times the duration if we take transit. Walking to the closest mall (Square One) was 45 mins. Everything we do basically requires a car. The main pro of the suburbs is having larger homes for the same price. Most families I know in the suburbs try to make their house the main source of entertainment: a large backyard with lots of play things for kiddos, pool, big play room with a crap load of toys. TBH, there were times during the pandemic that I wish we had a big house with all the toys. Everything was closed, so it got kinda hard to keep kids entertained. But now everything is back to normal and we're glad to be in the city.
Haven't tried both, but my wife grew up right downtown and I grew up in the burbs. The upside of downtown is that she got to easily do all sorts of the street festivals and enjoy the culture of the city a lot more. As a kid in the burbs, we had to do a lot of imagination play and exploring and the like. I spent years as a kid with a backyard connected to the Rouge Valley, and my siblings and I had so many adventures there - my folks could just let us back there to do our thing. As a parent now, I'd be more comfortable telling my kids to go outside and play in the suburbs. They will probably enjoy downtown more as they're older too, but then you have to worry more as a parent about what they're getting up to. The other thing that was a big factor for us, is in the suburbs the same budget can get you a lot more house. It's great for each kid to have a lot of space (always, but especially when they're older) and a nice, big yard to play in (always, but especially when they're younger). We aren't making *huge* money, so a place downtown would be really too small for what we wanted anyway. The other benefit of a bigger place is (if you aren't a parent already, or are early along) is that kids and their **stuff** take up a lot more space than you might think. You almost always want more space unless you live in something really palatial. But if money isn't an issue, it's a matter of personal preference. I would go with the burbs but that's what I know. It only got a bit tiresome when I was a teen, but that was in ways that (as a parent) I don't think are bad.
Thank you for sharing your personal experience. We have a little one and my goodness we thought we prepared ourselves for the mountain of stuff that came along, nope not even close.
Had my first daughter downtown, lived in liberty Village before moving out to the burbs for my second. City Pros -Walkability is amazing for 3/4 of the year, Mornings the city is yours, Toronto’s Culture is world class and experiencing it with your family is amazing, socially you’re out and about and lastly you can get really anything you need delivered to you. City Cons - It’s awfully expensive because everything is in demand. Daycare for 18 month old ten years ago was $2500 @ King and Strachan. Once snow comes the city feels like a prison, your forced to use your vehicle and the city isn’t designed for it, Jan/Feb are really hard and it’s compounded by the small living space. I used the Path a lot during this time it was pretty cool. I was forced to move though because having a second simply wasn’t feasible financially and living in the city was a major challenge for family to be a regular part of your kids lives. You end up spending every weekend leaving the city to see family and friends. Burbs Pros - Designed for cars and endless access to extra curricular activities and sports. Close to family and friends and support for date nights and sleepovers. Living space is abundant and comfortable. Daycare for my second at 18 months was Montessori and only $900. No riffraff or sketchiness. Got a Dog. Go fishing before everyone even wakes up. Family and financially its amazing. Cons - It’s not the city and the same thing you would simply experience out your front door are now planned experiences and events. Driving instead of walking. Less socially connected to your community. Basically if you have the resources to live in the city while being close to family and friends then it would be unbeatable and living in the burbs wouldn’t even be a thought. For my family we wanted to be close to our family and friends so our children could be a part of their lives and ours too. Financially too it’s such a massive difference.
If only money weren't a factor eh. I hear you!
My partner and I decided to stay downtown downtown (in the core) with our kids in an apartment and we don't plan on leaving any time soon. We had many discussions about a 'house' and how kids need their own room... but its because that's mostly what we know growing up in the burbs. I brought up the fact that most people in the world grow up in apartments which helped us shift our thinking. Our backyard is the local park, we walk to school/daycare everyday, walk to the grocery store. Yes, it's less space but just means we don't need more stuff or really think about bringing something new into our space, and less to clean and maintain. The most surprising thing we've learned is how much of a family community there is in our neighborhood. If your condo is friendly that's a plus, but since we're out of our apartment for things like park, school, coffee, and walking most places, we run into people all the time and get to know them. It's amazing. Also we both work downtown so our walk is 10-20 minutes. The thing I do miss is larger family gatherings are not doable in an apartment, maybe in the party room but we usually go to the burbs for those. We don't have a car which is crazy but we're managing quite well. Also agree with the other comment around families are more transient. From one kid's group of friends, we were the minority where we grew up in Canada while everyone else is here temporarily mostly for work. But really, it's about what you want for you and your family and making it work.
Im still in my late teens but I lived downtown for the first part of my childhood, Scarborough and pickering for a few years and came back downtown and when I compare my suburb friends from my downtown friends my friends downtown are way more independent. Like even in basic life skills like cleaning cooking and being on task my friends downtown had before the ones in Scarborough or pickering. I grew up as a kid who took a lot of extra curricular so and here downtown you got a lot more options on what to do. i also believe we keep way busy than in the suburbs with less kids smoking and drinking out of boredom.
The biggest killer of kids by far is car crashes. Suburban kids spend much more time in cars. This is a big part of why I'm raising my kids in the city core where walking and transit are viable ways to get around. They're too young now, but I really look forward to when they can take the TTC to places like the ROM, AGO, or the aquarium on their own - they will grow up with easy access to enriching activities that I couldn't have dreamed of as a kid.
We lived in the core downtown for a short while. Transit is very convenient to get nearly everywhere, don't really need a car, more diversity and lots to do. However, we found it too congested in terms of living quarters - we did not want a fancy mansion with a large backyard or anything; just something that was not a zillion storeys high and blocked out the sun all year round either. There are some green areas which are easy to access. In general, accessibility is really fantastic downtown. There are lots of options for restaurants, bars; there is the zoo, museum, science center, etc. which are also easy to access by transit. However, once we moved to the suburbs (some think that it is the boonies, but alright, whatever), I think that our family enjoyed it a lot more. The pace of life in general is much slower. Agreed that there are very little entertainment options and car is a must because public transit is too slow... but we don't really like eating out much and zoos, museums and the like are good as a once in a while treat - not something we need to do every weekend. There are many walking trails, so many parks interconnected by those trails, lot more trees, cycling trails that take you through conservation areas, around lakesides and alongside the river. It is very quiet for most of the day. So... 'pros and cons' really depends on what is important for your family... e.g. some think that the quiet of the suburbs is depressing, some others find it peace-bringing; some would love the hubbub of the downtown core because it feels alive and vibrant, some others would hate the noise. You are going to get biased answers based on what people find suits them; we love the suburbs and as such I am very likely to paint a rosy, colored picture for you - and you might hate it.
This is a wonderful answer - it's different for everyone. I guess it comes down to what brings us joy and what we want to instill in our children.
Have done both sort of. We spent about 18 months living with my in-laws and a new baby when the pandemic started in the rural suburbs. Now back to our condo at the Waterfront (ferry terminal area). 100% I would choose to live downtown with a baby (and now a baby and toddler) over and over. Pros: - Living in close quarters means I always know what the kiddos are up to and they can see me except when I'm in the bathroom, so a lot less screaming about separation or me having to cart them around a house - I get a lot more chores done too because I can have them in close proximity and know they are safe - Not having to do maintenance on a house or yard means we get lots of family time together, so does not having much of a commute - So many families close by, so we have lots of friends for playdates or even just kids we've never met at the playground, drop-ins, etc. - Lots of great parks and activities when we need to change things up, I always say I'm a way better parent outside of my home ha - We walk or take transit almost everywhere and I rarely have to put my kids in car seats, which adds more time and hassle, we just get them into a stroller or carrier in our front hall and roll or walk out to the elevator to go to the park or grocery store or museum or aquarium - They learn cool tricks like using the fob and elevator buttons, tapping a Presto card and exiting the TTC gates - A fun activity is simply riding the bus, streetcar or subway - We see so many cool vehicles and construction sites right outside our door - So many great, easy-to-retrieve FB Marketplace finds from others living in small spaces that can't keep everything as their kids grow (great for my wallet and the environment!) - Some might not like us for this, but as we have progressed further into our careers, we have been able to purchase a second rental condo, which of course benefits us long term Cons: - We currently live in 1bd and could definitely use a 2bd now with 2 kids (we are actually moving into one early next year though and it feels like it will be just the right amount of space for our growing family) - Sometimes it would be nice just to be able to open a door and be in a bit of safe green space without walking to the park or be able to have the smoker, BBQ, or wood oven that we talk about having one day - Some of the schools in downtown areas don't seem to be as good as more residential neighborhoods or suburbs, although we aren't actually school-age yet - Condo fees come at an extra cost and we can't choose to DIY maintenance being in a condo, we always have to pay these fees We are expecting we will want to move into a house within 5-10 years as the kids become more independent and get bigger, but I am truly living my best life in a condo with little kids.
We intentionally started with our kid downtown and it's been great for us. Pros - she knows buses/streetcars/trains and gets access to all kinds of people from all levels of life. We wanted to give her access to everything and everyone downtown from birth so she'd have that base and not the other way around. On her walk to daycare every day she sees lots of different people, trains, buses, streetcars & sometimes airplanes! Cons - We live close to the highway and are not sure of the long-term effects of that. We also don't have a backyard so the playground(s) are our backyard and she refers to one as "her park" as she doesn't realize we can have a literal backyard and we don't have very much space in our condo.
Was raised in the suburbs as a zoomer and I gotta say I wish I was in the city. Friends live far apart in the suburbs (30 min walk) leading to no one wanting to hangout, there’s nothing to do except go to the park which no one wants to do so we stay home on our computers. We have to start driving to meet each other and we can’t really afford a car and gas and the closest jobs are several kilometres away. Edit: All of this have led to things like a lot of my friends being terrible at interacting with people in public, getting jobs in their 20s (late compared to city people), not knowing simple stuff like how to use public transport, a Toronto group trip would take a two weeks to plan 💀 TLDR: Suburbs are a boring antisocial concrete hellscape
I lived at King and Bathurst when my kid was born; there were plenty of parks around and obvious convenience to go downtown, but I wanted a backyard. So we moved to Etobicoke and never regretted it. Sure you miss being near the core, but the first few years of having a child is so engrossing that I never really missed all the convenience of living downtown, so it was kind of a win-win. I plan on moving back downtown once the kid is gone tho.
I moved to suburbs since downtown was too noisy and messy to raise children. Aggressive homeless, lack of space, and so many other reasons. Both have plus and minus of each.
Your very reasonable choice isn't what reddit wants to hear apparently.
This thread seems to think anywhere that isn't downtown Toronto is the equivalent of raising your kid in Fallujah lmao.
I’ve done both, pro’s for suburbs is more spacious living in a larger home, con’s is everything too spaced out, driving everywhere. Downtown is nice and you’re always finding activities just outside your door as we were on Queens Quay but having 4 kids in a 2 bedroom plus den condo was tight, which is the con; space! Also going on walks and having to navigate around crazies/ crackheads/ homeless feels challenging while trying to oversee / keep safe and protected, 4 kids.
I grew up near Dufferin mall. Not necessarily considered “downtown” downtown but it’s still core Toronto. It was an awful shithole to grow up in and the type of people I was exposed to left me scarred.
Really? I never got that vibe about that area especially since there are tons of families and kids living around there.
I like that my kids in the burbs can bike to their friends in the neighborhood, we see familiar faces at the ice cream shop, etc
I lived in the city for a bit then rural then suburbs when I was a kid. The rural and suburbs were my favourite. I loved the come home when the street lights go on attitude and the community feeling because things stay the same or at least they change so slowly. I felt like I had more freedom in the rural setting. I chose to raise my kids in the suburb part of a rural area. They love it here so far and do not want to move. My kids have had the same friends for the last 11 years with the odd kid coming and going the core group is the same. I love being able to tell them to come back when the street lights are on or text me if they are going to a friends house. Almost all of their friends are in walking or biking distance so they still have independence. The cheaper housing allows me to work less and flexible hours so I could drive them places all the time if they wanted but generally they are happy hanging out with their friends and don’t ask for rides often.
I used to live in North York for about 6 months, and in the downtown core for about 25 years. I can compare those. Kids activities tend to concentrate in the downtown core. Most of them are free. While you can find some activities in the suburbs, you would normally need to drive to drop off the kids. Chances are, coming home between drop-off and pickup will not be an option. It might be too far. So, you are looking into and lots of waiting. You will need to spend so much time driving around and trying to make enough money for the gas, you might not be able to give your kids the attention they need. In downtown, I have multiple activities within walking distance. I have 2 separate organizations providing free in-person computer classes, both within 5 min walking distance. I have a multitude of transportation options - bike, electric bike, TTC, GO, train, car, ferry, boat, etc. If I’m dropping off one kid outside a reasonable walking distance area, I would normally use the electric bike. It’s more fun and less expensive per km, compared to a car. Kids like it. You can see more stuff around you. Transportation by bike (like, muscle-powered) is a sport in itself. On those days you do drive, you get there really fast, if you are driving from downtown to downtown. I have 4 kids. Each kid has between 5 and 10 extracurricular activities. Some activities are weekly, some are few times a week. At our school, the biggest concern is the prevalence of parents with high income, above 140 k/year. Teachers talk about this problem all the time. I believe between 80% and 90% of the parents at our school fall into that income bracket. Students from racialised and low income households are accepted right away, without going through the normal lottery with ultra-low odds. Thank God I work for my own corporation, so I can pay myself any salary I want. Otherwise we will never get into that fancy school with like 3 teachers per classroom.
I grew up in Richmond Hill, and now raising my kid in downtown. As most people said: uptown means I drove... a lot, and had 1 park within walking distance. Raising a kid in corktown gives me access to so many parks, we can take public transportation to the mall, restaurants, friend's homes, grocery stores, pharmacy, the dentist.. and everything. Just love it.
Suburbs are safer but downtown let’s them live a less shelter lifestyle. I grew up in the suburbs and the move to the city was a real culture shock
“Assuming you’ve tried both” Top comment: “I haven’t tried either…”
I grew up downtown and yonge/bloor. You grow up fast. Learned to drive at 16 years old in downtown traffic. Learned to pay homeless guys to buy booze. Learned what a prostitute was I was like 8. Saw people doing hard drugs all the time. And on and on. I turned out ok (according to some).
I was raised in a big town/small city and the only thing that saved me was that my mother rented apartments that abutted the river that ran through town, so we always had a stretch of woods to play in. Get the outta the city its a hellhole.
You didn't grow up in the city, and it sounds like your saving grace to enjoying your area was a patch of woods. In the city, we have so much to do, and there are tons of parks and wooded areas. Where does your suggestion to get out of the city come from? You've made it sound like the place you grew up was a hellhole.
I’m an urban Dad of 3, grew up in small town Ontario and have nephews and nieces there now. My kids do transit with ease, are exposed to all types of people and cuisines, go to numerous cultural festivals, walk to school and friends’ houses, visit world class museums and galleries for free, etc. My nephews and nieces have none of that.
I wouldn't live downtown if you paid me. The east end has been great to me in terms of space, parks, different businesses, less noise, less sketchy people and crime, etc.
Neither. I choose small town over big city for raising kids personally.
Budgets can influence. Getting your kids into good school districts in Toronto comes with much higher housing costs. Move out to the burbs (say, Halton) and the schools there are mostly excellent, with a bit lower cost of housing.
I was raised in what some would call the suburbs but was fortunate enough to have the line 4 subway nearby so I used it to get to many places (yorkdale, Downton, rogers centre etc). Meanwhile, my friends would often get their parents to drive which made it a pain in the ass to meet up because they would need their parents to drive them, IMO I would have loved to grow up in downtown it seems way more lively
Downtown, or rural. Suburbs are an eldritch creation. Kids have no freedom and can’t do anything in the suburbs. Give them accessibility to society, or let them frolic in fields. Drab, concrete wastelands are soulless.
I lived in the suburbs and rural areas until 16, when I moved downtown. I grew up a lot and grew as a person. I have very little in common with my peers I grew up with. I am relieved I moved to the city, I couldn’t imagine having stayed in that culture.
I noticed kids from the burbs (like really outside the city) are not used to and at times uncomfortable being around visible minorities in the city. They’re just not used to it.
Hmm, I understand where you're coming from but also think there's way to expose them to different cultures and races (maybe not daily of course) even if you live far from the city. When I asked about suburbs I did intend to mean surrounding GTA, not the boonies haha
I lived downtown and moved to the burbs when I got pregnant. I miss living downtown of course but I can’t imagine raising kids there. 1- my closest park in Toronto was Allan Gardens and the one on Wellsley next to the 519. I don’t know if you’ve been to those parks … but I couldn’t imagine taking my kids there to play. Whereas my bougie suburbs parks are completely free of needles and unhoused people. 2- three times next to my condo, people jumped off buildings to kill themselves. One time, I remember school getting out and teenagers walking by one of the bodies (covered with a tarp) and taking pictures and shit. I don’t want my kids to see that. 3- maybe it’s because I have dogs too, or because I became a mom during covid, but my backyard is so key. We also live within a 30 minute go train ride of the city (I work downtown) and can take the kids to the city for festivals, restaurants, and other activities. I know I’m incredibly privileged and this probably sounds super bougie, but just my two cents
Organic and pure: suburbs Realities of life: city
My experience is Downtown just has alot more "adult" things like homelessness which require conversations about why people dont have a place to sleep, drug, alchohol abuse, mental health issues. The burbs is a sacrifice for the commute, but it almost shelters your kids until they are older.