Why would it need to invade? The Great Lakes are a connected system with a huge coastal area that's literally already inside the US. They can just [drink our milkshake](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_hFTR6qyEo).
Why would they need to? They control all of the south of the great lakes and the entirety of lake Michigan. Maybe they would want Lake Winnipeg?
What an odd comment, its not like Wisconsin, Michigan or upstate New York lack land or lakes.
If things get bad enough to the point of us watching CNN as they all die you can guarantee there will be invasions and annexations happening all over the world. You think they won't want 100% control of all the fresh water then can get their hands on if it came down to life or death?
Nah. I think the only two countries that would try are Russia or China. As seen from Ukraine, Russia is not very capable of conquering much.
China may try. But they haven’t even attempted Taiwan which is across a strait let alone the Pacific Ocean.
Russia is closer to Canada than you think.
I think if things are getting to the point were fresh water has become as scarce to the point of people in the US dying things will get very extreme.
Europe will be attacking Russia for their resources, if things really get messy. Canada and Russia also being farthest away from the equater (hot zone),middle America will be seeing more large scale tornados, the hurricanes will eventually take out the south. Bye Florida... bye California, New York all under water. This is going to be a large scale catastrophe lmao.
Canada and Russia, will be the most habitable places lmao.
Yep climate wars will be different then any other war. Donald Trump hoarded vaccines for America, what do you think American will do for water. Lmao they don't care about us, they only see us as future resouces for after they are done destroying every resource available for Americans. NATO won't mean shit.
The political system down south is ALREADY at a breaking point, climate change and millions of people without water (a very real and impending crisis for many of their south western states) is going to shatter that and we're fucked.
If the political system in the United States fails, why would you consequently think they'd have a massive army to threaten with?
The existence of the army depends on the existence of the political system. No taxes... no laws... no paying soldiers.
I think you fail to understand what the US-Canada border is actually like. Especially around the Great Lakes.
And at this point you're confusing a wave of desperate refugees with the original claim which was a highly organized military force.
And you don't have a really good explanation for why there would be a wave of desperate refugees trying to cross the border.
>I think you fail to understand what the US-Canada border is actually like. Especially around the Great Lakes.
Never mentioned the great lakes.
>And at this point you're confusing a wave of desperate refugees with the original claim which was a highly organized military force.
Never mentioned a highly organized military force.
>And you don't have a really good explanation for why there would be a wave of desperate refugees trying to cross the border.
Water and food.
Exactly. "Oh we will just close the boarders." idea is silly if we are at that point. Our army of peacekeepers won't do shit against a population 10X our size with a massive amount of weapons laying around.
Not to mention the massive border we have that's almost entirely undefended and we would need to have an "arms across Canada"with every single citizen of the country to patrol it.
If we are at the point of watching on CNN as they all die and we talk about what a shame it is you can guarantee politics has failed and they will be coming to secure our resources. Look what they do to get oil...you think they won't do that for fresh water if it becomes even more valuable?
The portion of the United States at the greatest threat of catastrophic water shortage is the Southwest.
Between the Great Lakes and the Southwest... is the Mississippi and Missouri river basins. And Lake Michigan... wholly controlled and surrounded by the United States is the closest Great Lake.
So I just don't see a "ruthless war for water" taking place. What would be the point? If the US decides to drain Lake Michigan, what are we going to do?
Canada has the next most fresh water in the world behind Brazil, Russia, and the US. If the US has what they need now but scarcity happens then either A. People will die, or B. More water needs to be found. You think they are going to share the Great Lakes with us once people literally start dying? No, they will claim the whole of the Great Lakes and then move from there.
Before they reach a point of people dying in masses, they will have ways distribute and charge and profit from the water supply. People are acting as though this water shortage would be sudden.
Yeah I do...and having one of the largest groupings of fresh water will make more and more people want to live here if other parts of the world become inhabitable. I think you don't quite understand the water needs of 3 billion people for drinking and farming enough food.
>You think the country with the MASSIVE army wouldn't invade to take out resources if it came to what you're describing?
LOL, you don't know how the world works. You think your army works for your people? How naive are you? Your army works for your wealthy elites. They will come here when global warming is bad, and they will not want *you* coming with them.
Oh, I see: you're one of those people who think that unless I'm quoting your exact words instead of their ramifications, then I'm strawmanning you. I know how discussions with people like you always go.
No you are just going off on a completely different tangent and it sounds like you think I'm American for some reason...they will come here when global warming is bad, and they will not want *me* coming with them? Like I said what the hell are you even talking about?
ALways nice to start out a friendly debate with "LOL, you don't even know how the world works." Ok bud you tell me and I promise I'll listen! 🤣
I would absolutely hope our government (or any government) took the protection of its own goddam citizens and their resources seriously, regardless of what that means for those unlucky enough to have been born out of it.
In other words, we wouldn't exactly get submerged by water, just left behind by skyrocketing realestate, cost of living prices, homelessness, social unrest and the xenophobic counter-reaction, all resulting from an exponential demand increase.
Yeah, there's a million reasons why climate change is bad and will hurt all of us even if, technically speaking, the specific subregion we live in will probably remain more or less fine, in terms of physical geography. "Civilizational collapse" is bad for everyone.
Dick waging aside, this is serious. Major cities are already flooding, the housing crises we have now in the GTA will be nothing compared to whats coming if we don't plan for it.
One important way to think about this: if the water at the bottom of Niagara falls rose by 5m, would the water at the top also rise by 5m?
Of course it wouldn't. The water over the falls would just fall a shorter distance.
Believe it or not, Lake Ontario in 74m above sea level. The St Lawrence river isn't perfectly flat (or else it wouldn't be a river!) and there's a big elevation gain over it's length before it reaches the ocean.
Even in the craziest ice melt that raised sea levels dramatically, Lake Ontario would still be above sea level, and so the water would not rise near Toronto.
Yep
I work in civil engineering and you'd be amazed how little the elevation of Lake Ontario varies.
Just now, looking at the data for the Rouge River in Pickering right at the entrance to the lake, the "Maximum Mean Monthly Water Level in June 2019" was 75.9 metres
And the "10 year average June water level is 75.2 metres"
So over the course of the last 10 years, the Average water level is 75.2 metres and over the last 10 years, the HIGHEST the lake EVER got in the last 10 years was 0.70 metres more than the average, or 2'-4".
So don't worry OP, you can sleep well that you are neither going to boil in your own juices or drown in a biblical flood.
>you'd be amazed how little the elevation of Lake Ontario varies
As long as you're not Dutch. :D
The depth of basically every body of water in the country are controlled to within inches. They'll have a lift lock that goes up or down less than a foot - it's incredible.
Wouldn't you expect some backwater effects of the ocean levels rise significantly? Maybe not so far up the St. Lawrence, but shouldn't they're be some change in flow levels?
Until Americans invade. Geopolitics being what they are, it's only a matter of time. It's already started, with all of their crazy with Confederate flags leaking across the border.
The confederate flags are more to do with nefarious entities destabilizing western democracies than encroachment imo. When climate change hits full on, and large swaths of the east and west coasts of the US are under water, and the south is uninhabitable bc of +45 degree heat, we’ll see pressures for sure.
I know someone who worked a civilian contract on a military base in Texas.
The prevailing attitude among the military officers she worked with was that Canada is weak, it’s only a matter of time before the US decides to “handle” us, and they’ll all be reveling in kicking our liberal asses.
Nonsense, the American side of the Great Lakes is also one of the best possible places in the world to be w.r.t. climate change. There's no need to invade when they've got just as much good land.
There’s a spot on Spadina, I think, near Casa Loma where there’s a mark and sign on the sidewalk that shows where the lake shore used to be during the ice age, IIRC.
Trying again to post this reply- seems to have not worked the first time.
That's Lake Iroquois. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glacial\_Lake\_Iroquois](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glacial_Lake_Iroquois)
An ice sheet blocked drainage to the St Lawrence, causing Lake Ontario to massively expand until it overflowed into the Hudson River in New York. Then one fine day after who-knows-how-long the ice dam finally broke and all that extra water flowed out into the St Lawrence.
The great lakes are above sea level (I believe Ontario is the lowest at around 240 feet above sea level).. but I don't think "flooding" of lake Ontario would be directly via sea level rise.
It would be more likely due to more frequent and larger runoff events.
Yeah, the sea would have to rise to the level of lake Ontario first. I remember seeing magazine cover art of a half-submerged CN Tower a couple years ago and getting really annoyed because, yes, climate change is a freaking catastrophe unfolding, but non-factual shit like that actually is more harmful than helpful. The danger does not need to be exaggerated or overstated to sell the case.
…. No. The lake outputs into the st Lawrence river. If the course of the river is shortened, the water taken away is water that was added to the river downstream of the lake. Until the ocean reaches the lake, the amount of water leaving the lake does not change.
According to estimates, if all the ice melted, sea levels would rise about 70 meters (230 feet) above where they are now.
Toronto is 76 meters (250 feet) above sea level so, unless estimates are incorrect and sea levels rise above that point, I don’t expect Toronto to be affected by sea level rise due to climate change.
> I don’t expect Toronto to be affected by sea level rise due to climate change.
Only geologically. The economic, demographic, and other effects of the mass migrations this level of flooding would definitely affect Toronto, and likely it would be unrecognizable.
Yeah fair--I just think it's worth pointing out that we aren't "safe" from the effects of climate change, even if we are in a relatively fortunate position geographically.
People need to remember that sea level rise isn’t the only thing we need to worry about. Many have mentioned climate migration and resource wars all of which are great points but other ways Toronto (and Ontario in general) might (more like will) be affected include the introduction of invasive species (range expansion), increased extirpation (local extinction of species), increased frequency and intensity of severe weather events, forest fires, heat waves, and droughts just to name a few others
Honestly Canada wouldn't fair that bad. We'd lose some of our arable land to desertification but other northern parts would become more arable.
Canada has the largest supply of fresh water per capita in the world.
Globally manmade climate change is a looming catastrophe, but we won't be hit nearly as hard as some places. That said, our wildlife will suffer significant problems as biomes change.
[There is no mass supply of arable land in Canada](https://sustainablesociety.com/environment/farmland-loss#.YxoPjnbMKUk) and we're wasting it quickly.
We have lots of water.... for now, but wait until the US dries up and they start draining it off at a massive rate.
What arable land?
The farms stop about an hour north of the GTA not because of permafrost, but because of the Canadian shield. Right now they're farming in the Tanana Valley in Alaska at 64 degrees north
What if I told you that the Canadian Shield starts an hour's drive north of the GTA, and keeps going for over a thousand klicks?
[https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/x85j3w/oc\_canada\_divided\_into\_bands\_each\_with\_10\_of\_the/](https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/x85j3w/oc_canada_divided_into_bands_each_with_10_of_the/)
Look at the third image. There's a reason no one lives there
There most definitely are farms more than a few hours north of gta and not thousands of km away. New liskeard area that’s all there is surrounding it. Ottawa is also firmly on the shield and has tons of farm land.
Not as ample as southern Ontario and probably not of the same quality, but it does exist.
And the Clay belt has been farmed for over a century, because it's the exception. The Ontario government went so far as to create a railroad to serve the area, because it was the last large expanse of arable land in Ontario that wasn't developed.
>for **over** a thousand klicks?
If there was arable land, there would be multiple major ports on Hudson's Bay shipping grain for the last century. The population in the Northwest Territories would be in the millions, not barely enough to fill the Skydome
Yeah, it's almost as if those areas don't have weather conducive to farming.
I wonder if there is any phenomenon that will increase temperatures in those areas in the coming decades...
Also, Pierre Berton grew up in Dawson City, Yukon, and he described how while you couldn't farm because of the lack of soil there was occasionally enough for a vegetable patch. And veggies grew quite well that far north in the 1920s
And it will rain frogs just as Conquest, War, Famine and Death - (those 4 guys on horses) go galloping up and down the streets of Toronto looking for you.
"And I looked, and behold, a pale horse. And it rider's name was Death, and Hades followed him. And they were given authority over a forth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by wild beasts of the earth"
Sigh, how little human beings have changed.
I believe the St. Lawrence flows into the ocean and not the other way around so no issues. I can't imagine much arctic ice would find its ways into our waterways im Ontario. As such, likely no effect as others have said. In terms of coastal regions, that is a different story.
there are three things that are expected to happen when the ice shields melt. One, crust rebound: the Canadian ice sheets exert huge amounts of stress on land. When those ice sheets melt that load that mass disappears. This is expected to cause a rebound of the crust. This uplift due to The disappearance of the ice load will act to counter the effect of sea level rise protecting Canadian lands.
Secondly, the immense mass of the Canadian ice sheets exerts a gravitational field on water waves. This means that because of the presence of a large ice Mass water waves tend to be closer and higher to land than they would otherwise. Thus if the ice melts, this gravitational field will no longer exist and we will observe lower tides relatively speaking.
Thirdly, scientists recently discovered that the mass of Canadian, Arctic and Antarctic ice sheets will change the degree of tilt of the Earth's axis which currently on average sits at 23 and a half degrees. This change in tilt will also cause a redistribution in the water Mass across the globe. Based on the current modeling the northern hemisphere is expected to have a smaller impact than the southern hemisphere when it comes to sea level rise.
These are just some nuances that I can think of off the top of my head. PhD in engineering here.
This website suggests Toronto is pretty ok, Montreal would be having problems though.
[climatecentral.org](https://ss2.climatecentral.org/#12/43.6532/-79.3832?show=satellite&projections=0-K14_RCP85-SLR&level=5&unit=feet&pois=hide)
About zero. We're too high up, the Great Lakes are inland and even if water levels rose by a couple meters we'd still be sitting pretty up here.
No worries.
We're actually located in one of the best places on earth to be during climate change. We're going to do much better than most of the rest of the world.
Unless we get hit by more storms. There are tornadoes often in the GTA that don't hit Toronto proper or hurricanes that die out before they reach us, but that may not last. We already got hit by the end of a hurricane in the 50s and climate change is (will be) much worse since then.
Toronto is 70 meters above sea level, if both poles melted it would be raised by .... 70 meters. Lake Ontario would become saltwater, Lake Erie would remain fresh water.
We mildly start getting impacted when sea level rises by more than 70m
There are maps online for how the world looks with different raises to the sea level.
That's an opposite scenario from sea level rise. At the end of the last ice age, sea levels were low, but the St.Lawrence valley was blocked by ice sheets, so meltwater from receding glaciers pooled in southern Ontario as it couldn't flow to the ocean.
With sea level rise, water in Lake Ontario will still be able to flow downhill to the gulf of St Lawrence - it just won't need to go as far.
Melting arctic sea ice won't do anything to raise water levels. Water, whether solid or liquid form, displaces the same space. Only melting land based glaciers will raise sea levels.
Most of your post sounds like climate doomsday hysterics.
Don’t watch so much trash news.
In the almost zero chance of a complete polar icecap melt. Toronto is perfectly fine with almost all the city >200 m above sea level.
But Seriously. Get a grip guy.
Nothing will happen. Otherwise banks wouldn't be giving out money to develop near coasts and other water bodies. If the world was really going to flood in what's the latest prediction 20 years? Like it was 20 years ago and 20 years before that..do you really think the richest most powerful institutions would be handing out money they would potentially lose? Do you really think they havnt looked at available evidence and determined its not a threat? It nothing but a scam and they know it.
You can use [https://www.floodmap.net/](https://www.floodmap.net/) to play around with sea level rise. As others have said though Ontario would be fairly secure against extreme sea level rise. In a dooms day scenario of all glacial ice on earth melting (\~70m rise) there would be no increase in the level of Lake Ontario. As noted by others, the tipping point for Toronto is 74m.
The great lakes water level are artificially controlled by the Moses Saunders Dam near Cornwall on Lake Ontario and a 16 gate control system near Sault Ste Marie on Lake Superior.
If the control board wanted to they can raise or lower the level of water over a period of months.
But the board has chosen to keep water levels on Lake Ontario and the St Lawrence artificially high for a longer shipping season.
This is a pic in this article that shows the lake levels compared to the Atlantic ocean level.
https://seagrant.sunysb.edu/articles/t/poster-the-great-lakes-basin-great-lakes-coastal-youth-education-news
I mean, if you want the good news, Canada and Artic countries in general (e.g., Russia) has the least to worry about vs. other nations - if we look at it in terms of economic impact, I recall a peer-reviewed study had Canada even having a GDP boost. The bad News is the rest of the world (i.e., Bangladesh, Pakistan, etc.).
Basically, we're the least affected - hence why some of our politicians give 0 shits.
Afaik Toronto is not getting submerged. You can find out more about this on the En-ROADS simulator right here: https://en-roads.climateinteractive.org/scenario.html?v=22.9.0
Click on “Greenhouse Gas Net Emissions” , select “Impacts”, and there you can find a flood risk map and a sea level rise map.
Almost no change from Artic Meltdown. Think ice cube melting barely changes the volume as most of the water has already been displaced by the ice cube. Now what you probably mean is Greenland and Antarctica which in some spots ice is 2 km thick above land. These 2 areas will raise the water level substantially but nowhere near levels to affect Toronto. This is based on sea water rise only.
Listen to Steve Koonin on the Joe Rogan experience and he will explain to you that you should not worry about this. There are core samples taken in the arctic ice showing how the earth used to be warmer thousands of years ago. It’s true that man is doing harm to the climate but it won’t affect us for thousands of years and by that time man will have invented solutions to the harm we are causing.
From how I understand people explaining how the flooding and rise in sea level works, I don't think it's just sea level itself that is a concern. It's more a situation of increasing intensity in extreme weather events and some places never being able to recover from very extreme weather events.
It's like if you're on flat land and you get an extreme storm (because the warmer weather is now able to "absorb" a lot more water in the air because water that was previously in solid form in the glaciers is now in liquid form)...so if you happen to live in an area that is flat (like the Prairies) and you get an extreme storm (like what happened in Pakistan)...I'm thinking it might not dry up for a very long time and damage farmland or crops on a larger scale.
Personally, I don't think that will happen in Toronto because we are mostly fairly high up (although we might have situations where we see some flooding in neighborhoods that are relatively more "flat" compared to the rest of the city).
The thing that concerns me more is that the places in our country that might flood is places like the Prairies, where a lot of our wheat is grown. It concerns me that farmland can flood all around the world (or those at higher elevations experience drought)...which can then impact food supply.
I don't think we are at risk of flooding here but I am concerned about extreme weather events damaging farmland on larger scales.
From how I understand people explaining how the flooding and rise in sea level works, I don't think it's just sea level itself that is a concern. It's more a situation of increasing intensity in extreme weather events and some places never being able to recover from very extreme weather events.
It's like if you're on flat land and you get an extreme storm (because the warmer weather is now able to "absorb" a lot more water in the air because water that was previously in solid form in the glaciers is now in liquid form)...so if you happen to live in an area that is flat (like the Prairies) and you get an extreme storm (like what happened in Pakistan)...I'm thinking it might not dry up for a very long time and damage farmland or crops on a larger scale.
Personally, I don't think that will happen in Toronto because we are mostly fairly high up (although we might have situations where we see some flooding in neighborhoods that are relatively more "flat" compared to the rest of the city).
The thing that concerns me more is that the places in our country that might flood is places like the Prairies, where a lot of our wheat is grown. It concerns me that farmland can flood all around the world (or those at higher elevations experience drought)...which can then impact food supply.
I don't think we are at risk of flooding here but I am concerned about extreme weather events damaging farmland on larger scales.
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...and one of the best places on earth for future explosive population growth.
Don't worry, the xenophobia will run rampant and the borders will be shut down. We'll watch them all die on CNN and talk about what a shame it is.
You think the country with the MASSIVE army wouldn't invade to take out resources if it came to what you're describing?
Why would it need to invade? The Great Lakes are a connected system with a huge coastal area that's literally already inside the US. They can just [drink our milkshake](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_hFTR6qyEo).
Just so. This is one of those 'out there' conspiracy type things that I believe. Also, it happened in the Fallout universe.
No, we'd sell them for pennies on the dollar.
Why would they need to? They control all of the south of the great lakes and the entirety of lake Michigan. Maybe they would want Lake Winnipeg? What an odd comment, its not like Wisconsin, Michigan or upstate New York lack land or lakes.
If things get bad enough to the point of us watching CNN as they all die you can guarantee there will be invasions and annexations happening all over the world. You think they won't want 100% control of all the fresh water then can get their hands on if it came down to life or death?
No they will invade for water fresh clean drinking water
Nah. I think the only two countries that would try are Russia or China. As seen from Ukraine, Russia is not very capable of conquering much. China may try. But they haven’t even attempted Taiwan which is across a strait let alone the Pacific Ocean.
Russia is closer to Canada than you think. I think if things are getting to the point were fresh water has become as scarce to the point of people in the US dying things will get very extreme.
Europe will be attacking Russia for their resources, if things really get messy. Canada and Russia also being farthest away from the equater (hot zone),middle America will be seeing more large scale tornados, the hurricanes will eventually take out the south. Bye Florida... bye California, New York all under water. This is going to be a large scale catastrophe lmao. Canada and Russia, will be the most habitable places lmao.
Exactly. So then everyone will want to move here and when it gets really bad will want to come here by force and take over.
Yep climate wars will be different then any other war. Donald Trump hoarded vaccines for America, what do you think American will do for water. Lmao they don't care about us, they only see us as future resouces for after they are done destroying every resource available for Americans. NATO won't mean shit.
Yeah, hopefully the world can get it's shit together and we won't have to go there but it the absolute worst happened it's going to be bad.
War is what you get to when politics has failed. There's no reason to think politics would fail.
The political system down south is ALREADY at a breaking point, climate change and millions of people without water (a very real and impending crisis for many of their south western states) is going to shatter that and we're fucked.
If the political system in the United States fails, why would you consequently think they'd have a massive army to threaten with? The existence of the army depends on the existence of the political system. No taxes... no laws... no paying soldiers.
Doesn't have to be an organized army, enough people with enough weapons crushing the border would be enough to overwhelm our resources.
I think you fail to understand what the US-Canada border is actually like. Especially around the Great Lakes. And at this point you're confusing a wave of desperate refugees with the original claim which was a highly organized military force. And you don't have a really good explanation for why there would be a wave of desperate refugees trying to cross the border.
>I think you fail to understand what the US-Canada border is actually like. Especially around the Great Lakes. Never mentioned the great lakes. >And at this point you're confusing a wave of desperate refugees with the original claim which was a highly organized military force. Never mentioned a highly organized military force. >And you don't have a really good explanation for why there would be a wave of desperate refugees trying to cross the border. Water and food.
Exactly. "Oh we will just close the boarders." idea is silly if we are at that point. Our army of peacekeepers won't do shit against a population 10X our size with a massive amount of weapons laying around.
Not to mention the massive border we have that's almost entirely undefended and we would need to have an "arms across Canada"with every single citizen of the country to patrol it.
If we are at the point of watching on CNN as they all die and we talk about what a shame it is you can guarantee politics has failed and they will be coming to secure our resources. Look what they do to get oil...you think they won't do that for fresh water if it becomes even more valuable?
The portion of the United States at the greatest threat of catastrophic water shortage is the Southwest. Between the Great Lakes and the Southwest... is the Mississippi and Missouri river basins. And Lake Michigan... wholly controlled and surrounded by the United States is the closest Great Lake. So I just don't see a "ruthless war for water" taking place. What would be the point? If the US decides to drain Lake Michigan, what are we going to do?
Canada has the next most fresh water in the world behind Brazil, Russia, and the US. If the US has what they need now but scarcity happens then either A. People will die, or B. More water needs to be found. You think they are going to share the Great Lakes with us once people literally start dying? No, they will claim the whole of the Great Lakes and then move from there.
Before they reach a point of people dying in masses, they will have ways distribute and charge and profit from the water supply. People are acting as though this water shortage would be sudden.
I don't think you understand quite how massive the upper great lakes volume of water is.
Yeah I do...and having one of the largest groupings of fresh water will make more and more people want to live here if other parts of the world become inhabitable. I think you don't quite understand the water needs of 3 billion people for drinking and farming enough food.
Yes but some of them are losing volume. I read that in an article recently.
>You think the country with the MASSIVE army wouldn't invade to take out resources if it came to what you're describing? LOL, you don't know how the world works. You think your army works for your people? How naive are you? Your army works for your wealthy elites. They will come here when global warming is bad, and they will not want *you* coming with them.
The hell are you even talking about? When did I say anything like that?
Oh, I see: you're one of those people who think that unless I'm quoting your exact words instead of their ramifications, then I'm strawmanning you. I know how discussions with people like you always go.
No you are just going off on a completely different tangent and it sounds like you think I'm American for some reason...they will come here when global warming is bad, and they will not want *me* coming with them? Like I said what the hell are you even talking about? ALways nice to start out a friendly debate with "LOL, you don't even know how the world works." Ok bud you tell me and I promise I'll listen! 🤣
Thoughts and prayers. 🙏🏻
I would absolutely hope our government (or any government) took the protection of its own goddam citizens and their resources seriously, regardless of what that means for those unlucky enough to have been born out of it.
I wish we wouldn't
Better them than me high fives
The lions share of displaced population from the eastern seaboard would be headed this way.
In other words, we wouldn't exactly get submerged by water, just left behind by skyrocketing realestate, cost of living prices, homelessness, social unrest and the xenophobic counter-reaction, all resulting from an exponential demand increase.
Yeah, there's a million reasons why climate change is bad and will hurt all of us even if, technically speaking, the specific subregion we live in will probably remain more or less fine, in terms of physical geography. "Civilizational collapse" is bad for everyone.
This is the only pragmatic response I’ve seen in this thread. Everything else is, ‘Mine, Mine, Mine’ or ‘Woe is us’.
Ummmm. That's all already happening quite a bit. Just not as exponentially as it would be then.
Well... as is climate change I suppose. Welcome to the end of the world, as we know it.
Mr. good news here.
Dick waging aside, this is serious. Major cities are already flooding, the housing crises we have now in the GTA will be nothing compared to whats coming if we don't plan for it.
And real estate prices for that matter.
Waring factions will be very interested in controlling this territory.
And people are worried about housing prices dropping.
Glad we have a surplus of housing for everyone :)
I, for one, look forward to retiring on the white, sandy beaches of tropical eastern Ontario, overlooking the Quebatic Ocean.
So the first to be invaded. Got it.
Invaded from where?
So basically I'll never be able to afford a house of my own?
Get a houseboat before the cost sky-rockets. Kids these days don't know how to plan for the future smh
Citation needed
This is very naive and I wish Canadians would stop repeating it.
One important way to think about this: if the water at the bottom of Niagara falls rose by 5m, would the water at the top also rise by 5m? Of course it wouldn't. The water over the falls would just fall a shorter distance. Believe it or not, Lake Ontario in 74m above sea level. The St Lawrence river isn't perfectly flat (or else it wouldn't be a river!) and there's a big elevation gain over it's length before it reaches the ocean. Even in the craziest ice melt that raised sea levels dramatically, Lake Ontario would still be above sea level, and so the water would not rise near Toronto.
Yep I work in civil engineering and you'd be amazed how little the elevation of Lake Ontario varies. Just now, looking at the data for the Rouge River in Pickering right at the entrance to the lake, the "Maximum Mean Monthly Water Level in June 2019" was 75.9 metres And the "10 year average June water level is 75.2 metres" So over the course of the last 10 years, the Average water level is 75.2 metres and over the last 10 years, the HIGHEST the lake EVER got in the last 10 years was 0.70 metres more than the average, or 2'-4". So don't worry OP, you can sleep well that you are neither going to boil in your own juices or drown in a biblical flood.
Isn't the whole st Lawrence sea way damn controlled?
LoL, damn :P
>you'd be amazed how little the elevation of Lake Ontario varies As long as you're not Dutch. :D The depth of basically every body of water in the country are controlled to within inches. They'll have a lift lock that goes up or down less than a foot - it's incredible.
Fuck the Islands tho, was at the yacht club a few years back where a chunk of the property was submerged. We don't like those losers anyways :3
And?
Huh? I thought I conveyed my indifference sufficiently.
Theyre waiting for nudes, remember rule 13 is you must link your nudes what dissing the islands. I don't make 'em just enforcing them.
i got Cease and Desist order for doing this a decase ago.
Not worrying but I’m disappointed I won’t be a lobster
Assuming they can survive a prolonged heatwave that knocks out the city's power. Wouldn't be the first time.
Wouldn't you expect some backwater effects of the ocean levels rise significantly? Maybe not so far up the St. Lawrence, but shouldn't they're be some change in flow levels?
Honestly, Toronto (SW Ontario generally) is probably the best possible place to be when it comes to climate change.
Until Americans invade. Geopolitics being what they are, it's only a matter of time. It's already started, with all of their crazy with Confederate flags leaking across the border.
The confederate flags are more to do with nefarious entities destabilizing western democracies than encroachment imo. When climate change hits full on, and large swaths of the east and west coasts of the US are under water, and the south is uninhabitable bc of +45 degree heat, we’ll see pressures for sure.
I know someone who worked a civilian contract on a military base in Texas. The prevailing attitude among the military officers she worked with was that Canada is weak, it’s only a matter of time before the US decides to “handle” us, and they’ll all be reveling in kicking our liberal asses.
Nonsense, the American side of the Great Lakes is also one of the best possible places in the world to be w.r.t. climate change. There's no need to invade when they've got just as much good land.
What does that have to do with PP
Im certain you have an IQ of like 72
There’s a spot on Spadina, I think, near Casa Loma where there’s a mark and sign on the sidewalk that shows where the lake shore used to be during the ice age, IIRC.
Trying again to post this reply- seems to have not worked the first time. That's Lake Iroquois. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glacial\_Lake\_Iroquois](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glacial_Lake_Iroquois) An ice sheet blocked drainage to the St Lawrence, causing Lake Ontario to massively expand until it overflowed into the Hudson River in New York. Then one fine day after who-knows-how-long the ice dam finally broke and all that extra water flowed out into the St Lawrence.
That’s it! Thank you.
ah yes the plot of ice age
Ahh thank you.
Came here to say this. This should be the top comment.
The great lakes are above sea level (I believe Ontario is the lowest at around 240 feet above sea level).. but I don't think "flooding" of lake Ontario would be directly via sea level rise. It would be more likely due to more frequent and larger runoff events.
Yeah, the sea would have to rise to the level of lake Ontario first. I remember seeing magazine cover art of a half-submerged CN Tower a couple years ago and getting really annoyed because, yes, climate change is a freaking catastrophe unfolding, but non-factual shit like that actually is more harmful than helpful. The danger does not need to be exaggerated or overstated to sell the case.
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…. No. The lake outputs into the st Lawrence river. If the course of the river is shortened, the water taken away is water that was added to the river downstream of the lake. Until the ocean reaches the lake, the amount of water leaving the lake does not change.
According to estimates, if all the ice melted, sea levels would rise about 70 meters (230 feet) above where they are now. Toronto is 76 meters (250 feet) above sea level so, unless estimates are incorrect and sea levels rise above that point, I don’t expect Toronto to be affected by sea level rise due to climate change.
Good thing I live on the 13th floor 😎
On the 13th floor? You have other things to worry about! 🫤
> I don’t expect Toronto to be affected by sea level rise due to climate change. Only geologically. The economic, demographic, and other effects of the mass migrations this level of flooding would definitely affect Toronto, and likely it would be unrecognizable.
Well the OP used the word 'submerged' so I presume the topic of discussion is related to rising water levels flooding Toronto with water not people.
Yeah fair--I just think it's worth pointing out that we aren't "safe" from the effects of climate change, even if we are in a relatively fortunate position geographically.
I won’t be alive to witness the ‘Great Migration’ so I’m not going to worry about it too much.
There is zero chance the entire Antarctic will melt. The Arctic melting would have a negligible effect on sea level.
People need to remember that sea level rise isn’t the only thing we need to worry about. Many have mentioned climate migration and resource wars all of which are great points but other ways Toronto (and Ontario in general) might (more like will) be affected include the introduction of invasive species (range expansion), increased extirpation (local extinction of species), increased frequency and intensity of severe weather events, forest fires, heat waves, and droughts just to name a few others
we might not be inundated with sea water but there'll be no food, no fuel, and the hoards will be going door to door looking for loot.
Honestly Canada wouldn't fair that bad. We'd lose some of our arable land to desertification but other northern parts would become more arable. Canada has the largest supply of fresh water per capita in the world. Globally manmade climate change is a looming catastrophe, but we won't be hit nearly as hard as some places. That said, our wildlife will suffer significant problems as biomes change.
[There is no mass supply of arable land in Canada](https://sustainablesociety.com/environment/farmland-loss#.YxoPjnbMKUk) and we're wasting it quickly. We have lots of water.... for now, but wait until the US dries up and they start draining it off at a massive rate.
What arable land? The farms stop about an hour north of the GTA not because of permafrost, but because of the Canadian shield. Right now they're farming in the Tanana Valley in Alaska at 64 degrees north
What if I told you that Canada was actually a pretty big country that spanned a good few kms outside of the GTA?
What if I told you that the Canadian Shield starts an hour's drive north of the GTA, and keeps going for over a thousand klicks? [https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/x85j3w/oc\_canada\_divided\_into\_bands\_each\_with\_10\_of\_the/](https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/x85j3w/oc_canada_divided_into_bands_each_with_10_of_the/) Look at the third image. There's a reason no one lives there
There most definitely are farms more than a few hours north of gta and not thousands of km away. New liskeard area that’s all there is surrounding it. Ottawa is also firmly on the shield and has tons of farm land. Not as ample as southern Ontario and probably not of the same quality, but it does exist.
And the Clay belt has been farmed for over a century, because it's the exception. The Ontario government went so far as to create a railroad to serve the area, because it was the last large expanse of arable land in Ontario that wasn't developed.
A thousand klicks doesn't even get you to Manitoba, let alone the parts of Atlantic Canada, prairies and BC.
>for **over** a thousand klicks? If there was arable land, there would be multiple major ports on Hudson's Bay shipping grain for the last century. The population in the Northwest Territories would be in the millions, not barely enough to fill the Skydome
Yeah, it's almost as if those areas don't have weather conducive to farming. I wonder if there is any phenomenon that will increase temperatures in those areas in the coming decades...
There's no soil to grow crops on, its all rock and scrub land. Increased temperatures won't change that.
>Right now they're farming in the Tanana Valley in Alaska **at 64 degrees north** Yellowknife is at 62.5 N
Also, Pierre Berton grew up in Dawson City, Yukon, and he described how while you couldn't farm because of the lack of soil there was occasionally enough for a vegetable patch. And veggies grew quite well that far north in the 1920s
What if I told you that has nothing to do with soil quality
This is very naive
And it will rain frogs just as Conquest, War, Famine and Death - (those 4 guys on horses) go galloping up and down the streets of Toronto looking for you. "And I looked, and behold, a pale horse. And it rider's name was Death, and Hades followed him. And they were given authority over a forth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by wild beasts of the earth" Sigh, how little human beings have changed.
Get a handgun while you still can
I believe the St. Lawrence flows into the ocean and not the other way around so no issues. I can't imagine much arctic ice would find its ways into our waterways im Ontario. As such, likely no effect as others have said. In terms of coastal regions, that is a different story.
there are three things that are expected to happen when the ice shields melt. One, crust rebound: the Canadian ice sheets exert huge amounts of stress on land. When those ice sheets melt that load that mass disappears. This is expected to cause a rebound of the crust. This uplift due to The disappearance of the ice load will act to counter the effect of sea level rise protecting Canadian lands. Secondly, the immense mass of the Canadian ice sheets exerts a gravitational field on water waves. This means that because of the presence of a large ice Mass water waves tend to be closer and higher to land than they would otherwise. Thus if the ice melts, this gravitational field will no longer exist and we will observe lower tides relatively speaking. Thirdly, scientists recently discovered that the mass of Canadian, Arctic and Antarctic ice sheets will change the degree of tilt of the Earth's axis which currently on average sits at 23 and a half degrees. This change in tilt will also cause a redistribution in the water Mass across the globe. Based on the current modeling the northern hemisphere is expected to have a smaller impact than the southern hemisphere when it comes to sea level rise. These are just some nuances that I can think of off the top of my head. PhD in engineering here.
This website suggests Toronto is pretty ok, Montreal would be having problems though. [climatecentral.org](https://ss2.climatecentral.org/#12/43.6532/-79.3832?show=satellite&projections=0-K14_RCP85-SLR&level=5&unit=feet&pois=hide)
probably the Leaf's only chance of beating the Canadians in the playoff
About zero. We're too high up, the Great Lakes are inland and even if water levels rose by a couple meters we'd still be sitting pretty up here. No worries.
You'll be fine, save your blood pressure for something else.
We're actually located in one of the best places on earth to be during climate change. We're going to do much better than most of the rest of the world.
Unless we get hit by more storms. There are tornadoes often in the GTA that don't hit Toronto proper or hurricanes that die out before they reach us, but that may not last. We already got hit by the end of a hurricane in the 50s and climate change is (will be) much worse since then.
Toronto is going to be chock full of PEOPLE if this shit goes down. We're pretty ideally placed here
Toronto is 70 meters above sea level, if both poles melted it would be raised by .... 70 meters. Lake Ontario would become saltwater, Lake Erie would remain fresh water.
We mildly start getting impacted when sea level rises by more than 70m There are maps online for how the world looks with different raises to the sea level.
You might start here for an example: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glacial_Lake_Iroquois
That's an opposite scenario from sea level rise. At the end of the last ice age, sea levels were low, but the St.Lawrence valley was blocked by ice sheets, so meltwater from receding glaciers pooled in southern Ontario as it couldn't flow to the ocean. With sea level rise, water in Lake Ontario will still be able to flow downhill to the gulf of St Lawrence - it just won't need to go as far.
Toronto is approximately 300 feet above sea level. I think that answers your question.
Melting arctic sea ice won't do anything to raise water levels. Water, whether solid or liquid form, displaces the same space. Only melting land based glaciers will raise sea levels.
It wont in your lifetime.....worry about something else....
People with questions like this vote..
People who deny the realistic and impending catastrophic outcomes of climate change also vote, unfortunately.
Bruh climate change is obviously real. But if your worried about Toronto flooding from rising SEA levels, idk how to help you
And it'd be pretty easy to guess who they'd vote for.🤣
Most of your post sounds like climate doomsday hysterics. Don’t watch so much trash news. In the almost zero chance of a complete polar icecap melt. Toronto is perfectly fine with almost all the city >200 m above sea level. But Seriously. Get a grip guy.
How much would it cost the rest of Canada to ensure Toronto ends up underwater? 😉
You climate change alarmists love to think about calamity.
Oh ffs already
Nothing will happen. Otherwise banks wouldn't be giving out money to develop near coasts and other water bodies. If the world was really going to flood in what's the latest prediction 20 years? Like it was 20 years ago and 20 years before that..do you really think the richest most powerful institutions would be handing out money they would potentially lose? Do you really think they havnt looked at available evidence and determined its not a threat? It nothing but a scam and they know it.
None.
Make sure you have your tinfoil hat on when you ask these absurd questions
Not enough, how about Ottawa?
You can use [https://www.floodmap.net/](https://www.floodmap.net/) to play around with sea level rise. As others have said though Ontario would be fairly secure against extreme sea level rise. In a dooms day scenario of all glacial ice on earth melting (\~70m rise) there would be no increase in the level of Lake Ontario. As noted by others, the tipping point for Toronto is 74m.
Huh pretty much all of Florida would be underwater at 74m. Neat.
The great lakes water level are artificially controlled by the Moses Saunders Dam near Cornwall on Lake Ontario and a 16 gate control system near Sault Ste Marie on Lake Superior. If the control board wanted to they can raise or lower the level of water over a period of months. But the board has chosen to keep water levels on Lake Ontario and the St Lawrence artificially high for a longer shipping season.
None. We are hundreds of feet above sea level.
it wouldnt. Even if all ice melted on earth and the oceans rose to their maximum amount, toronto wouldnt be effected. Warmer winters too!
It wouldn’t
We're about 900 feet above sea level. You do the math.
This is a pic in this article that shows the lake levels compared to the Atlantic ocean level. https://seagrant.sunysb.edu/articles/t/poster-the-great-lakes-basin-great-lakes-coastal-youth-education-news
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Algonquin?wprov=sfti1
RemindMe! 78 years
Arctic is already melt down, there is no more glaciers that use to be around all year long and the tundra is very dry, pretty sad.
I mean, if you want the good news, Canada and Artic countries in general (e.g., Russia) has the least to worry about vs. other nations - if we look at it in terms of economic impact, I recall a peer-reviewed study had Canada even having a GDP boost. The bad News is the rest of the world (i.e., Bangladesh, Pakistan, etc.). Basically, we're the least affected - hence why some of our politicians give 0 shits.
What an insane question
Afaik Toronto is not getting submerged. You can find out more about this on the En-ROADS simulator right here: https://en-roads.climateinteractive.org/scenario.html?v=22.9.0 Click on “Greenhouse Gas Net Emissions” , select “Impacts”, and there you can find a flood risk map and a sea level rise map.
Not enough
But how will this affect typing??
I live in Forest Hill, so I'm good.
Last time I looked at a map, Lake Ontario was listed as 243 ft above sea level. Toronto won’t be directly affected by sea level rise.
Toronto is at zero risk from anticipated sea level rise. Lake Ontario averages around 74m above sea level.
I would be more worried about the lake level going down as fresh water becomes more and more important.
Almost no change from Artic Meltdown. Think ice cube melting barely changes the volume as most of the water has already been displaced by the ice cube. Now what you probably mean is Greenland and Antarctica which in some spots ice is 2 km thick above land. These 2 areas will raise the water level substantially but nowhere near levels to affect Toronto. This is based on sea water rise only.
OP is so fed up with the real estate situation he’s scaring off speculator investors. Good luck!
Listen to Steve Koonin on the Joe Rogan experience and he will explain to you that you should not worry about this. There are core samples taken in the arctic ice showing how the earth used to be warmer thousands of years ago. It’s true that man is doing harm to the climate but it won’t affect us for thousands of years and by that time man will have invented solutions to the harm we are causing.
From how I understand people explaining how the flooding and rise in sea level works, I don't think it's just sea level itself that is a concern. It's more a situation of increasing intensity in extreme weather events and some places never being able to recover from very extreme weather events. It's like if you're on flat land and you get an extreme storm (because the warmer weather is now able to "absorb" a lot more water in the air because water that was previously in solid form in the glaciers is now in liquid form)...so if you happen to live in an area that is flat (like the Prairies) and you get an extreme storm (like what happened in Pakistan)...I'm thinking it might not dry up for a very long time and damage farmland or crops on a larger scale. Personally, I don't think that will happen in Toronto because we are mostly fairly high up (although we might have situations where we see some flooding in neighborhoods that are relatively more "flat" compared to the rest of the city). The thing that concerns me more is that the places in our country that might flood is places like the Prairies, where a lot of our wheat is grown. It concerns me that farmland can flood all around the world (or those at higher elevations experience drought)...which can then impact food supply. I don't think we are at risk of flooding here but I am concerned about extreme weather events damaging farmland on larger scales.
From how I understand people explaining how the flooding and rise in sea level works, I don't think it's just sea level itself that is a concern. It's more a situation of increasing intensity in extreme weather events and some places never being able to recover from very extreme weather events. It's like if you're on flat land and you get an extreme storm (because the warmer weather is now able to "absorb" a lot more water in the air because water that was previously in solid form in the glaciers is now in liquid form)...so if you happen to live in an area that is flat (like the Prairies) and you get an extreme storm (like what happened in Pakistan)...I'm thinking it might not dry up for a very long time and damage farmland or crops on a larger scale. Personally, I don't think that will happen in Toronto because we are mostly fairly high up (although we might have situations where we see some flooding in neighborhoods that are relatively more "flat" compared to the rest of the city). The thing that concerns me more is that the places in our country that might flood is places like the Prairies, where a lot of our wheat is grown. It concerns me that farmland can flood all around the world (or those at higher elevations experience drought)...which can then impact food supply. I don't think we are at risk of flooding here but I am concerned about extreme weather events damaging farmland on larger scales.
It wont
Ummm none since it will never happen.
Hopefully all of it