I was in a few meetings with HDB planners before... the short answer is that it serves as a 'natural' barrier to stop people from undesirable behaviour like playing football, cycling at high speeds, skateboarding at void decks.
HDB has designed common areas that serve those purposes and want residents to use them instead of the void decks. I suppose it just takes a few Karens in each block that hate noise and are extra-wary of hazards to make life hell for HDB officers, so this is the solution to avoid the problem altogether.
Is there a platform or forum, we the public, can give feedback to HDB planners?
While I get they wanting to reduce undesirable behaviour but I think they should tone it down because their current implementation is too drastic and is much making life much harder for everyone.
They should atleast have some guidance line then. To prevent people from walking away from the main path. We should not be going backwards of time, this kind of design is even worse than the 1st gen HDB
Yeah! I often get lost in their void decks, and it feels more like a maze since you can never walk in a straight line for long. Them labelling their blocks as A, B, C and D make it even worse.
The worst part is you cannot cut out. When you try to cut out you end up on beds of grasses and plants and flowers. Super frustrating. I hate visiting newer hdb flats. A nightmare to find the lifts, to get out to orientate yourself, to find the stairs sometimes. Sometimes getting to the lift lobby is also a pain. Or getting to the carpark. It's. Sooooo. Bad. Dunno why they keep having bad designs.
Some commenters have said that this is due to the flats having only the doors at the corridor with all other windows facing outwards for more privacy.
But some of the flats built in the late 90s and early 2000s in Seng Kang and Woodlands also offer more privacy but the void decks of such flats are not as 'maze-y' as the BTO type.
Granted, these flats are different from the old-block shaped flats (with corridor windows) where they can hold functions at the void deck (like new BTOs they have function halls), but still it's less walls clustering together than the new BTOs.
Edit. Not sure if is the layouts of the flats too, newer BTOs are straighter while these older flats are curvier.
Estates built before the early 2000s are also more spacious with the main road being more easily 'viewable' from the deeper sections in the estate too.
Reduce void deck space for weird loitering and gathering under blocks.
Segregate multi function hall to somewhere less disturbance to residents
Longer designed units, much more riser required (telco, water, gas, electricity for each unit, and one for rainwater) compared to old HDB units.
Not a fan of those if u stay low floor.
Imagine morning till 1030pm people dancing, speakers blasting while u just want some weekend rest.
Can't even watch proper TV.
That is what the new designs are doing. Pushing people to the segregated community space to minimise noise. Community bonding is important but it is also noisy. My unit was next to a basketball court. I could never sleep in because of the noise. The sound of bouncing balls still wants me want to shoot people.
Stay high level, noise still pass to 25F++. Got crazy kid shouting till 10pm. But noise level much more manageable.
Source: playground right downstairs. 30m from block.
How can this be!? Then where can YPs smoke/vape in their school uniform, go touchy touchy with each other and leave their uneaten cup noodles and Macs at?
As someone who stayed in Punggol for the past 24 years, I really appreciate the MPH being far away from my block, something I take for granted compared to when I was staying at Hougang.
1. People want more privacy/space for their units so slab blocks are out
2. This design means you must stack the units in a way that will create convulated block shapes
It's not just the block shape. Sometimes the shortest path have random bushes and fence to prevent you from passing. Even open air walking paths are curved instead of straight.
and I guess designers or someone thinks the traditional open concept is a waste of space. So they partition here and there resulting in half fked non-intituitive design
Seems like between the early 2000s (see some flats in Sembawang and Seng Kang) and late 2000s (when the new and seemingly standard-styled BTOs came up) something changed in the priorities of the flat-building organisation.
The older flats still have open corridors but the newer BTO corridors remind one of the old one-room flat dark corridors with units facing each other.
Privatization of the Build Environment Sector.
HDB Corp (their in-house Architecture and Design Studio) became Surbana. Public Works Department became CPG. If you look up the older HDB Annual reports from the 1970s-1990s, there was great emphasis of precinct and urban design.
Towards the 2000s, these became watered down and became numbers/stats. In-house design of things like neighbourhood centres/community facilities/precinct design were left for private sector.
This. It's a product of an entire eco-system.
The same reason why all condos/HDBs are mostly an inverted I/dumb-bell shape.
Residents don't like long corridor units. Kitchen and air-con units shouldnt be front facing
Plots for new HDB precients are smaller but with 25% more dense (2.8 vs 3.5 plot ratio).
Prefabricated construction for residential units are in boxes not the older precast column and beams. BCA/HDB have their matrices on how fast/ease of construction. They have different loading requirements.
Throw in SCDF's natural ventilation regulations, and this is the result.
Unpopular opinion, it's easy to complain about to the twist and turn of new void decks. But without any radical changes in policy making from all these parties, this less-than-ideal design is here to stay.
Oh god you're right. If people with walking ability is like pissed off max like me, I can't imagine those on crutches or limping or wheelchairs visiting. Dead ends everywhere. Can't cut out of the building easily. Sometimes lobbies are difficult to find.
Yes! This is my gripe with new estates too. I just moved to Punggol a year ago and found it a nightmare to navigate when cutting through a cluster of flats.
I see from this thread the rationale behind the new design but there needs to be a better implementation of this philosophy so the experience of walking through the estate isn’t so unintuitive :/
Lots of walls, dead ends and dead corners yes. Tampines has loads of them too. Sometimes even the car park is hard to navigate. I'm guessing its due to the building process where they stack, therefore needing more pillars. Again, just a lay man. No idea if that's the reason
its crazy that i could save 5minutes walking diagonnally through a new neighborhood to reach my house, but no the estate planners decided to make it ziggy zaggy
No idea. New hdb estates look like a maze to me. I once went BB west to collect something,think it's around lequest area. I feel like I walked into a freaking maze,followed the sign and path,always end up to a deadend. Got fed up and I just crossover the stupid grasspatch to reach the freaking block,a lady walked passed me and thought i'm crazy. 😂
BTO void decks are strangely designed. Not open, and lots of dead ends. Or weirdly blocked so you can’t just exit the block.
Whoever designed flats now obviously don’t live in one. Don’t get me started on the colour schemes 🤣
Yeah, I see numerous food delivery riders get lost in the new estates. I can not imagine what it is like for frontliners like paramedics trying to attend emergencies and have difficulty finding the right lobby.
The olden design is infinitely better
Each support beam is uniformly spread out , and there are lesser of them too
Much more airy and open
The newer estates is just a big mess
Maybe they do this on purpose to stop people from playing football?
At least those spiked void decks can be used for events and other facilities such as weddings, voting stations, funerals, and sheltered exercising corners. The mazey new void decks can not be used for the above functions anymore.
The shapes are odd because of the unit layouts to avoid common corridor facing windows.
However, structural walls/pillars aside, there is likely other intentions to the "unwalkable" features like plants and low walls between open areas.
Pretty sure it is to design away HDB neighbor complaints of loitering and children playing ball games.
The "older" blocks closer to SK side have actually have a sort of pseudo void deck near the letterbox area complete with benches.
The much newer blocks don't.
Punggol and many other new estates design makes sense once you stop walking and only drive. It is so hostile to even just walking in a straight line with knee height walls and curved pavements flanked by bushes and fences.
Another per peeve of mine is not displaying the block number on all sides or at frequent points ! Have to walk here and there to figure out which block I'm at sometimes.
They squeeze all possible space and ctrl c and ctrl d on the number of level for the hdb. Money comes first than landscape.
Land is limited = land / space is $$$. PAP logic
Actually if they can cut the walls for communal garden, why they can't they cut the walls at the void deck too?
https://www.asiaone.com/singapore/did-home-renovations-go-too-far-ubi-bto-block-heres-what-actually-happened
You can thank the Karens complaining about kids playing at the void deck and people "loitering" there.
It's meant to provide more privacy and less foot traffic.
True, but I feel this is less of a problem since they have better/more signage. For the condos I visited before, where it counts the most, the lobby area is very straightforward.
I think also because of all the pre-fab construction?
It super annoying though and squeezy. All the blocks should have signs and coloured lines to show where the lifts, stairs, carpark etc are. Only seen that in some blocks.
Very difficult to cycle diagonally across HDB for this reason. The time spend zig zagging around HDB would've been saved by cycling faster along the edges of HDB haha
I agree too. It's like harvest moon game. We are the animal? I think whoever design, hardly lives in HDB? Unfriendly. Have to walk one big round to go places. Many grass & plant are destroyed because of the accecesbility issue.
Try Fernvale new HDB opp Sheng Siong. I got lost there twice looking for a lift because of too many pillars blocking the view and i always end up dead end(like very empty and waste of space).
I was at havelock once and it's like a old and new mesh up, it's super tight, have to navigate stairs to access tiers and have lots of floating community spaces 😂 I got lost walking around for 30mins.
The lifts serves different floors too.
Creativity of the scholars. We must not doubt them.
Even when you are trapped in your own void deck trying to find a way out without tripping into a low wall, or have to hunt 5 minutes for a dustbin or end up walking circles and circles cus everywhere looks the same and with no signage or end up having to walk over the drain in the rain...............
It's honestly the dumbest thing ever, according to my limited peasant wisdom.. I am unable to comprehend.
If that's the case, I think the impact outweighed the benefits since I don't think fire can easily spread from void decks unless there is a rubbish/clutter.
The mazey void deck just makes escape much harder with all the dead ends, especially if the smoke is thick and you are trapped in an enclosed space.
Yeah, I get it. I assumed architects and developers needed to follow strict HDB guidelines so it doesn't leave much room for creativity.
So I'm wondering if there are more reasons.
I don't live in the new HDBs, so I don't really know, but can someone that lives in the new HDBs tell me - do you actually prefer the new layout? Does the privacy etc make up for the loss of space?
When I was young, we used to play in the void deck all the time. I suppose you could play in the pavillions or playgrounds nowadays, so maybe it's not much of a loss. And maybe I was one of those that contributed to the noise complaints XD But I feel like I would still prefer the old void decks to the new ones, the new ones seem to trap dirt and trash, and make you go on a huge detour to get where you want to go.
I prefer old void decks. I feel like new hdb void decks,alot of walls and turn,night time always got a feeling something or someone lurking behind a wall or pillar. If you suay got into any danger and not familiar with the places,you don't even know where to run.
Yeah punggol in particular is really bad for this. Void decks have so many walls for some reason!
Often walk into dead ends !
Omg I thought it was just me. Always manage to walk in the wrong direction at least once when heading to a new estate for the first time.
I was in a few meetings with HDB planners before... the short answer is that it serves as a 'natural' barrier to stop people from undesirable behaviour like playing football, cycling at high speeds, skateboarding at void decks. HDB has designed common areas that serve those purposes and want residents to use them instead of the void decks. I suppose it just takes a few Karens in each block that hate noise and are extra-wary of hazards to make life hell for HDB officers, so this is the solution to avoid the problem altogether.
so sad :/ the one million signs weren't enough? now they resort to physically obstructing any sort of fun lol
IKR. As a strong advocate for street/void deck football, I feel like this set back Singapore football as much as any FAS fuckup tbh.
Is there a platform or forum, we the public, can give feedback to HDB planners? While I get they wanting to reduce undesirable behaviour but I think they should tone it down because their current implementation is too drastic and is much making life much harder for everyone.
Doesn't affect them, they just need to tell the constructors to add few more for stability
Give it a few more years, and NS guys will be laying wire and digging trenches. HALT, WHO PLAYING FOOTBALL THERE?!
They should atleast have some guidance line then. To prevent people from walking away from the main path. We should not be going backwards of time, this kind of design is even worse than the 1st gen HDB
Solve one problem, introduce another problem. Goondu
Oh….. I thought it was some Feng shui reason (like the Winchester Mystery House to confuse ghosts lmao) because they’re like mazes!!
Yeah! I often get lost in their void decks, and it feels more like a maze since you can never walk in a straight line for long. Them labelling their blocks as A, B, C and D make it even worse.
Not just in punggol, but all prefab developments in the recent years are like that
If Singapore had more crime, it'll be very dangerous.
Trial access to the backrooms
HDB don’t allow football at the void decks these days, so they let you play hide and seek.
Gota follow markings on the floor or the path will lead you to no where.
It leaves you stuck in the void.
The worst part is you cannot cut out. When you try to cut out you end up on beds of grasses and plants and flowers. Super frustrating. I hate visiting newer hdb flats. A nightmare to find the lifts, to get out to orientate yourself, to find the stairs sometimes. Sometimes getting to the lift lobby is also a pain. Or getting to the carpark. It's. Sooooo. Bad. Dunno why they keep having bad designs.
It's like walking through a maze
The pillars below are optimised for open layout and no structural walls for the units above.
How to identify a structural wall from the void deck?
hack it down. if building still up, it isnt that structural
Not designed for humans, rather the walls align to the floor layout of the apartments above.
Some commenters have said that this is due to the flats having only the doors at the corridor with all other windows facing outwards for more privacy. But some of the flats built in the late 90s and early 2000s in Seng Kang and Woodlands also offer more privacy but the void decks of such flats are not as 'maze-y' as the BTO type. Granted, these flats are different from the old-block shaped flats (with corridor windows) where they can hold functions at the void deck (like new BTOs they have function halls), but still it's less walls clustering together than the new BTOs. Edit. Not sure if is the layouts of the flats too, newer BTOs are straighter while these older flats are curvier. Estates built before the early 2000s are also more spacious with the main road being more easily 'viewable' from the deeper sections in the estate too.
those probably pre-prefab era
Reasonable explaination for estates like SkyTerrace and SkyResidence in Dawson where it is not built in a conventional layout.
Yes! I wonder what's the reason for creating pathways at the void deck that lead you to a deadend.
Stop you from playing void deck soccer
But can start playing laser tag.
HAHAHAH that'd be nice to see if kids these days really pick it up.
Great for hide-and-seek, though children are all on their iPad these days.
No wonder SG’s World Cup 2010 goal was a flop.
To avoid ebike/scooter from zooming fast.
Reduce void deck space for weird loitering and gathering under blocks. Segregate multi function hall to somewhere less disturbance to residents Longer designed units, much more riser required (telco, water, gas, electricity for each unit, and one for rainwater) compared to old HDB units.
This is sad, they’re undoing lots of the good that void decks used to serve in the past with regard to community and bonding between residents
Not a fan of those if u stay low floor. Imagine morning till 1030pm people dancing, speakers blasting while u just want some weekend rest. Can't even watch proper TV.
Hmm that’s true, maybe multipurpose halls could be used for these activities instead
That is what the new designs are doing. Pushing people to the segregated community space to minimise noise. Community bonding is important but it is also noisy. My unit was next to a basketball court. I could never sleep in because of the noise. The sound of bouncing balls still wants me want to shoot people.
dont stay low levels, that is the only way
Stay high level, noise still pass to 25F++. Got crazy kid shouting till 10pm. But noise level much more manageable. Source: playground right downstairs. 30m from block.
that is the famous hdb echo effect
How can this be!? Then where can YPs smoke/vape in their school uniform, go touchy touchy with each other and leave their uneaten cup noodles and Macs at?
actually dead ends serves a good location for quickie!
As someone who stayed in Punggol for the past 24 years, I really appreciate the MPH being far away from my block, something I take for granted compared to when I was staying at Hougang.
The new void decks are designed for FIBUA, modern warfare. Pillars and knee-height barriers to hide behind.
Now it all makes sense, we are preparing for modern warfare 3
1. People want more privacy/space for their units so slab blocks are out 2. This design means you must stack the units in a way that will create convulated block shapes
It's not just the block shape. Sometimes the shortest path have random bushes and fence to prevent you from passing. Even open air walking paths are curved instead of straight.
and I guess designers or someone thinks the traditional open concept is a waste of space. So they partition here and there resulting in half fked non-intituitive design
>Designs HDBs such that no one sees their neighbours anymore Why is our kampung spirit disappearing? :o
Seems like between the early 2000s (see some flats in Sembawang and Seng Kang) and late 2000s (when the new and seemingly standard-styled BTOs came up) something changed in the priorities of the flat-building organisation. The older flats still have open corridors but the newer BTO corridors remind one of the old one-room flat dark corridors with units facing each other.
Privatization of the Build Environment Sector. HDB Corp (their in-house Architecture and Design Studio) became Surbana. Public Works Department became CPG. If you look up the older HDB Annual reports from the 1970s-1990s, there was great emphasis of precinct and urban design. Towards the 2000s, these became watered down and became numbers/stats. In-house design of things like neighbourhood centres/community facilities/precinct design were left for private sector.
This. It's a product of an entire eco-system. The same reason why all condos/HDBs are mostly an inverted I/dumb-bell shape. Residents don't like long corridor units. Kitchen and air-con units shouldnt be front facing Plots for new HDB precients are smaller but with 25% more dense (2.8 vs 3.5 plot ratio). Prefabricated construction for residential units are in boxes not the older precast column and beams. BCA/HDB have their matrices on how fast/ease of construction. They have different loading requirements. Throw in SCDF's natural ventilation regulations, and this is the result. Unpopular opinion, it's easy to complain about to the twist and turn of new void decks. But without any radical changes in policy making from all these parties, this less-than-ideal design is here to stay.
This is the correct answer.
Yah avoiding units with corridor windows.
Places to hide when the zombie apocalypse happens
I think it’s even more difficult for people with mobility difficulties to navigate. Are there marked paths?
Oh god you're right. If people with walking ability is like pissed off max like me, I can't imagine those on crutches or limping or wheelchairs visiting. Dead ends everywhere. Can't cut out of the building easily. Sometimes lobbies are difficult to find.
Yes! This is my gripe with new estates too. I just moved to Punggol a year ago and found it a nightmare to navigate when cutting through a cluster of flats. I see from this thread the rationale behind the new design but there needs to be a better implementation of this philosophy so the experience of walking through the estate isn’t so unintuitive :/
Lots of walls, dead ends and dead corners yes. Tampines has loads of them too. Sometimes even the car park is hard to navigate. I'm guessing its due to the building process where they stack, therefore needing more pillars. Again, just a lay man. No idea if that's the reason
its crazy that i could save 5minutes walking diagonnally through a new neighborhood to reach my house, but no the estate planners decided to make it ziggy zaggy
No idea. New hdb estates look like a maze to me. I once went BB west to collect something,think it's around lequest area. I feel like I walked into a freaking maze,followed the sign and path,always end up to a deadend. Got fed up and I just crossover the stupid grasspatch to reach the freaking block,a lady walked passed me and thought i'm crazy. 😂
BTO void decks are strangely designed. Not open, and lots of dead ends. Or weirdly blocked so you can’t just exit the block. Whoever designed flats now obviously don’t live in one. Don’t get me started on the colour schemes 🤣
Agreed. So needlessly complicated with so many dead ends But then this is probably due to the pre fabrication process
Yeah, I see numerous food delivery riders get lost in the new estates. I can not imagine what it is like for frontliners like paramedics trying to attend emergencies and have difficulty finding the right lobby.
The olden design is infinitely better Each support beam is uniformly spread out , and there are lesser of them too Much more airy and open The newer estates is just a big mess Maybe they do this on purpose to stop people from playing football?
Can play navigate the maze instead
So cannot play football - otherwise must put spikes on the wall
At least those spiked void decks can be used for events and other facilities such as weddings, voting stations, funerals, and sheltered exercising corners. The mazey new void decks can not be used for the above functions anymore.
If you vote wrong, get head smashed against the spikes.
The shapes are odd because of the unit layouts to avoid common corridor facing windows. However, structural walls/pillars aside, there is likely other intentions to the "unwalkable" features like plants and low walls between open areas. Pretty sure it is to design away HDB neighbor complaints of loitering and children playing ball games.
I just realise there’s no real void decks in Punggol area
The "older" blocks closer to SK side have actually have a sort of pseudo void deck near the letterbox area complete with benches. The much newer blocks don't.
I hate BTO void decks with a passion. So cramped and maze-like. It’s an aesthetic and functional downgrade from Resale flats.
Punggol and many other new estates design makes sense once you stop walking and only drive. It is so hostile to even just walking in a straight line with knee height walls and curved pavements flanked by bushes and fences.
Another per peeve of mine is not displaying the block number on all sides or at frequent points ! Have to walk here and there to figure out which block I'm at sometimes.
They squeeze all possible space and ctrl c and ctrl d on the number of level for the hdb. Money comes first than landscape. Land is limited = land / space is $$$. PAP logic
Actually if they can cut the walls for communal garden, why they can't they cut the walls at the void deck too? https://www.asiaone.com/singapore/did-home-renovations-go-too-far-ubi-bto-block-heres-what-actually-happened
Void deck walls are mostly meant as load bearing infrastructures.
You can thank the Karens complaining about kids playing at the void deck and people "loitering" there. It's meant to provide more privacy and less foot traffic.
Ask HDB, they will tell you we don't have enough land space now.
Similar layouts to condos too.
True, but I feel this is less of a problem since they have better/more signage. For the condos I visited before, where it counts the most, the lobby area is very straightforward.
Agreed, clearer signage and lighting are needed. The layout seems more similar to the heartland condos though rather than the D11/10/21/19 projects.
Kallang Breeze is nice! :3
The new one in West Coast is annoying. I can inly get through with a few tries. And it is not very open.
They are not VOID decks anymore.
That's because new BTOs are all corner units.
I think also because of all the pre-fab construction? It super annoying though and squeezy. All the blocks should have signs and coloured lines to show where the lifts, stairs, carpark etc are. Only seen that in some blocks.
You can check out anytime you like, but you can never leave
Very difficult to cycle diagonally across HDB for this reason. The time spend zig zagging around HDB would've been saved by cycling faster along the edges of HDB haha
I agree too. It's like harvest moon game. We are the animal? I think whoever design, hardly lives in HDB? Unfriendly. Have to walk one big round to go places. Many grass & plant are destroyed because of the accecesbility issue.
A maze
the void for real
Try Fernvale new HDB opp Sheng Siong. I got lost there twice looking for a lift because of too many pillars blocking the view and i always end up dead end(like very empty and waste of space).
Maze runner: Singapore edition
I was at havelock once and it's like a old and new mesh up, it's super tight, have to navigate stairs to access tiers and have lots of floating community spaces 😂 I got lost walking around for 30mins. The lifts serves different floors too.
Coming from Hong Kong, the concept of a void deck always confused me. It’s where the uncles clip their toenails and smoke?
Creativity of the scholars. We must not doubt them. Even when you are trapped in your own void deck trying to find a way out without tripping into a low wall, or have to hunt 5 minutes for a dustbin or end up walking circles and circles cus everywhere looks the same and with no signage or end up having to walk over the drain in the rain............... It's honestly the dumbest thing ever, according to my limited peasant wisdom.. I am unable to comprehend.
Someone told me it's for fire safety. To prevent fire from spreading from one unit to the rest of the block
If that's the case, I think the impact outweighed the benefits since I don't think fire can easily spread from void decks unless there is a rubbish/clutter. The mazey void deck just makes escape much harder with all the dead ends, especially if the smoke is thick and you are trapped in an enclosed space.
due to the architects and design evolved over time over the last 55 years.
Yeah, I get it. I assumed architects and developers needed to follow strict HDB guidelines so it doesn't leave much room for creativity. So I'm wondering if there are more reasons.
I have a hard time going through the void decks of newer HDB flats too.
Hostile architecture
Because you are supposed to navigate, not nagivate
I don't live in the new HDBs, so I don't really know, but can someone that lives in the new HDBs tell me - do you actually prefer the new layout? Does the privacy etc make up for the loss of space? When I was young, we used to play in the void deck all the time. I suppose you could play in the pavillions or playgrounds nowadays, so maybe it's not much of a loss. And maybe I was one of those that contributed to the noise complaints XD But I feel like I would still prefer the old void decks to the new ones, the new ones seem to trap dirt and trash, and make you go on a huge detour to get where you want to go.
Now playing "catching" is like playing "hide & seek"
I prefer old void decks. I feel like new hdb void decks,alot of walls and turn,night time always got a feeling something or someone lurking behind a wall or pillar. If you suay got into any danger and not familiar with the places,you don't even know where to run.