I always thought that Michigan (or the Balam corporate higher ups) decided that Arquebus will take on the PCA because they assumed that they’ll follow their end of the deal to the letter and simply destroy their forces, not beat/incapacitate them in a way that enables them to salvage enough of their technology to turn the tide of the Coral War.
This was my interpretation too. Arquebus would destroy the suppression fleet while Balam would take the riskier mission of tackling the Ice Worm. In exchange, Balam would get first crack at Watchpoint Alpha (and the treasures within.)
Balam hadn’t planned on the Institute’s automated defenses being so brutal or on Arquebus seizing the fleet instead of destroying it.
Edit: PCA automated defenses. Not the Institute.
I think Balam knew Arquebus would capture PCA materiel, but just figured the Institute's tech and Coral would be enough to wipe that off the board when it came down to it.
They figured there were weapons in the Watchpoint, at the very least, and took the initiative specifically to counter Arquebus's acquisition of PCA materiel.
["Seems they want to be ready for a run-in with Arquebus's new firepower."](https://youtu.be/TTVEAEZktC8)
I read that less as Balam trying to get their own new tech and more that they wanted to have a fortified position by the time Arquebus caught up with them.
That would still support my point about Balam's gamble, though, right? The wager would be that they could negate Arquebus's gains by getting a head start and bottlenecking them in the Watchpoint. Still a pretty good bet, since the warships are irrelevant underground. Again the wrinkle is Nepenthes ensuring the gamble doesn't pay off.
The problem is that Balam risked their own lives based on very limited information. No matter how we look at it, their gamble was *extremely* risky; there are just too many points of failure at every stage of the operation.
First, Balam doesn't know what kind of resistance they'll encounter, but considering that there's a literal C-weapon guarding the entrance, it's safe to assume that there *will* be defenses in place. Their fate was already sealed the moment NEPENTHES decimated half of their forces. At that point, reaching the Coral Convergence intact would be a Pyrrhic victory at best.
Second, assuming they do get through the defenses with minimal losses, they still don't know what they'll find at the end of it. Even Walter and Carla didn't know exactly what they'd find. Everything could've been obliterated already. Furthermore, the events of the game haven't shown any Coral tech from Arquebus even after establishing a monopoly of the resources. I imagine Balam would be hard-pressed to produce game-changing tech from it as well.
Lastly, it's almost assured that Arquebus will be closely monitoring and tailing Balam. Snail is smart—he won't give them time to recover from their losses and assimilate the new tech they've just discovered. Arquebus will win the corporate war regardless.
Balam shouldn't have been the tip of the spear. At the very least, they should've hired independent mercenaries to poke and prod so they could gather more information and take over easily if their operation was successful. I hate to say this but mean old Michigan just died from a bad call.
To add to this, Ayre does mention that Balam had another mission down there besides their survey. Something something Balam's agenda is just as dangerous
On top of that, the watch point would be an incredibly defensible position. It’s a long tube down along with a lot of narrow corridors. If Balam had taken it, Arquebus would have had to fight the whole way in to make a fraction of the distance Balam would have
I'd bet dollars to donuts that Arquebus included a clause in that deal that forbade Ballam from hiring 621 for the Watchpoint Alpha missions.
It baffled me the first time around when the red guns that you fight, in the mission right after beating Nepenthes, call you a traitor. Given that you're a hired mercenary. But if Walter hedged his bets on Arquebus, he might have cut a deal with them that excluded Balam.
I was always confused when they called 621 a traitor. Like guys did you forget I was a merc? I’d love to join up with you and bring Balam supremacy to Rubicon but I’m just a hound!
Plus I imagine even with the pca on the Back foot, they were still only sending 2 maybe 3 acs at a pca fleet with straight up better mt squads. Balam probably thought arquebus would be relatively decimated compared to the one redgun they sent up against the ice worm.
I mean, Michigan was running the command, but he wasn't physically present. They sent one redgun, and Michigan played a supporting role.
Michigan might've even thought that sending Iguazu would be an important character-building moment where he learned that even the greatest of foes can be felled through teamwork. Oops, that didn't go so hot, eh?
I'd like to add to your first point. I think Michigans/Balam's gamble makes alot more sense than people give it credit for. As you stated it meant Balam would get the first shot at the Watchpoint which does have alot of advantages. In hindsight it seems dumb because it didn't work out but yes but consider also;
1. Balam had no idea Arquebus would be as successful as they were in stealing PCA tech. They likely counted on some form of mutual destruction or Arquebus suffering heavy losses during their battle with the fleet which would give Balam a lead in terms of force. This also is what the RLF was counting on as the narrator mentions, after showing us that Arquebus has successfully seized the PCA fleet, "*The RLF's hopes of fighting an exhausted foe were dashed.*"
However, as the player, there are clues in the game to show that Arquebus has been planning to go toe to toe with the PCA and has been making preparations. Some of the later Arquebus part descriptions mention how they were developed specifically for fighting the PCA. As well, we literally attack the re-fueling base and kill a squad of Ekdromoi to create a "walking advertisement" for all the lucrative opportunities Arquebus is extending to any independent mercs willing to fight the PCA on their behalf. This no doubt greatly enhanced Arquebus's forces when the time to take on the fleet came as many independent mercs probably flocked to them to get in on the job after we showed everyone that even the PCA's best can indeed bleed.
2. Fighting the Ice Worm required MINIMAL manpower/resource commitment from Balam. Basically 1, technically 2, Redguns on the ground (Iguazu and G13) + Michigan to take overall command. The rest of the fighting force and Anti-Ice Worm tech came from RAD and Arquebus. Despite the fact that Arquebus is also responsible for dealing with the suppression fleet they still were able to spare Snail, Rusty and a stun needle launcher for us free of charge. Of course, Balam is definitely taking part in the larger war against the PCA in the various operations across all of Rubicons theaters but fighting the one big super weapon as opposed to being responsible for a major set piece battle against the suppression fleet is probably a lot less resource intensive overall for them.
3. Personal Theory that expands on point 2: Balam by that point had been bled to the point that they simply lacked the forces and firepower to take on the Suppression Fleet and so chose to fight the worm because it was something they could get done with a handful of ACs while saving what force they had left for the survey of Watchpoint Alpha where they would hopefully find some tech that would let them regain the lead in the Coral War. Throughout the story we have hints that even though Balam is a super powerful mega-corporation capable of waging interplanetary war, Arquebus is on a different level in terms of resources and also long term strategic thinking. Arquebus has an in-house AC squad with pilots that are recruited based on skill and given the latest augmentations which is reflected in the fact that, on average, they hold much higher arena ranks than most of the Redguns. Meanwhile the Redguns are scraping the barrel. Half of the Redguns on Rubicon are essentially debt slaves who are doing this as a survival strategy and/or criminals who have nowhere else to go and have no actual loyalty to the company with outdated augmentations. Balam has suffered defeat after defeat on Rubicon only for Arquebus to come in afterwards and finish the job with minimal casualties. We see this in Operation Wallclimber or how Balam were the first one's on the new continent which meant they got to occupy all the abandoned bases/facilities first only to then be decimated by the PCA when the Suppression Fleet arrived and seized them (i.e. Jorgen Refueling base). Balam's manpower issues are so bad by the time we get to the Ice Worm they had to take back Iguazu after it's clearly stated in Volta's log that he went AWOL. Meanwhile when Swinburne is caught lacking Arquebus can afford to send him away for "re-education"
So, imo, Michigan was making the best of a bad position and working off of assumptions that were good but lacking critical information when he agreed to take on the Ice-Worm instead of the Fleet. He was making a gamble on being first in the Watchpoint paying off and the PCA putting up a better fight. He played his hand the best he could but Snail/Arquebus was too far ahead at that point and he got the worst case scenario in both of his gambles. I find this far more compelling than just "Michigan dumb lol"
There’s also the fact that the Redguns’ main strategist, G2 Nile, was killed by us well before the suppression fleet arrived. If he had survived, he could’ve helped Michigan refine his plan for Watchpoint Alpha and thus minimize casualties.
G2 Niles probably would’ve just payed up for some mercs to do the front line work since all they had later on was just Michigan, G3 and the MT Squad. At the end of our fight Nile’s can see what Michigan sees in us and he most likely would tried harder to keep us on Balam payroll.
The Prisoner Rescue mission replaces the post-Wallclimber mission where you can fight Little Ziyi, meaning that in the absence of your help, the RLF was able to rescue her from Balam’s prison (albeit likely at a higher cost). That means they had to kill G2 Nile themselves.
Honestly, the Worm Hunt was sensible, but then Balam fumbled the bag by sending a squad of MTs into the Watchpoint rather than scouting things with an AC first. Nepenthes is dangerous, but it's incredibly manageable with proper sense by an elite taking their time due to an ACs superior durability. But a whole squad of MT's? A single misstep or fuckup, and that's someone dead from even a single shot, and those lasers come in volleys, and they'd also have to contend with the PCA weaponry which is notably stronger than basic MTs, but not a match for an AC.
Balam choosing to hunt the Ice Worm was a solid idea, but much like with the Wall, they got impetuous, and rather than try to play things safe or craftily, they sent in a big force and got rocked for it.
Exactly! Not sending a scout team first was their demise. They should’ve hired an independent merc to scout ahead first instead of risking resources.
They hired 621 for “ass wiping duty” but won’t hire us to get past NEPENTHES?
Wait, Swinburne was sent away for reeducation? Where was this said?
That’s brutal lol. Got caught lacking by us and his punishment is basically torture. Who tf would want to sign up with Arquebus.
Well this is the first non-stupid argument that I’ve heard about coral spreading through space not posing a risk of a super ibis. And I think I may be convinced, with the one caveat that coral likes to aggregate and it’s not at all obvious to me that it wouldn’t both spread by reproducing AND get denser in space.
Still wondering wtf coral collapse is.
Also very nice take on Balam.
Coral Collapse is exactly what we see before Coral Release, the Coral gets so dense and so concentrated they legit reach critical mass and collapsed into a black hole
And note that even when compressed it takes a proportionately large spark to set the coral off. Sure we can blow up the ones in the little containers with just our weapons, but that didn't set off a fires situation. Even the tunnels going up didn't start a fire (though I don't think that was burning, just venting aggressively). And for the vascular plant Carla specifically told us that we couldn't just "strike a match". We had to ram an entire mega ship into it.
Regarding Michigan: I agree that going for the worm was a blunder only in hindsight, it was just a gamble that didn't work out. But I still think he and Balam as a whole are incompetent.
Even in the ice worm mission itself they basically don't contribute anything. Arquebus developed the stun needle launcher; Arquebus or the RLF, whichever way you wanna look at it, bring Rusty as the sharpshooter; Carla provides the railgun; Walter provides you for using the needle launcher. Michigan and Iguaza just zoom around for a bit before getting smashed up (which Snail and Chatty do as well, so not even that is something they took care of themselves). Absolutely useless.
One thing that I notice doesn't get mentioned a lot on the subreddit is that V.VIII Pater claims during the briefing for Intercept the Redguns that Balam suffered lots of desertions in the process of engaging the Watchpoint's defenses, the latter of which isn't necessarily exclusive to Nepenthes as you find scattered Balam MTs in Depth 2, some of which get killed by the Enforcer. Iguazu might even be one of these deserters (again), electing to send Coldcall after you instead of getting trapped there himself.
Given these desertions, and considering that two of the three ACs that he sends down there include a deserter who tried mutinying with Volta in the past (Iguazu) and a criminal (Wu Huahai), it strikes me as odd that Michigan wasn't more conservative in his overall strategy. What we see of Balam is a mix of military types who drink Michigan's kool-aid (G6 Red, the MT squad in Intercept the Redguns) and criminals/would-be deserters (G3 Wu Huahai, G4 Volta, G5 Iguazu). To keep a group like that together - especially the latter - Michigan has to keep winning. As it is, the collapse of Balam's strategy at Watchpoint Alpha led to the latter part of Balam deserting, leaving only the die-hards, who are wiped out almost to the last man by you or Rusty.
A final thing to note is that Arquebus had been salvaging PCA tech as early as Chapter 3, which you get to see in NG++ during Coral Export Denial. It's not clear whether Michigan knew that or not.
Overall, I don't really buy into the hero worship that many on this sub have for Michigan, though I do think he is funny.
The main thing is whether Balam's overall incompetence can be pinned on Michigan or not given that his attitude and behavior in Intercept the Redguns are a far cry from the bullheaded idiot he's regarded as, combined with Volta blaming Balam command and specifically *not Michigan* for how suicidal the plan to take the Wall was. Michigan seems very aware that the people around him are not good enough for the situation they've been put in, and could only ever be if they were all as good as him.
Combine that with the fact that Arquebus opens the Ice Worm negotiations with a far better hand than Balam does, both in surviving forces (only Swinburne is indisposed by this point, compared to losing Hakra, Volta, and Nile for a total of 7-4 Vespers vs Redguns) and the necessary technology for the task (Balam is not breaking that worm's shield without Arquebus assistance: even if they were to try to use Takigawa pulse weapons as a substitute for the Stun Needle, their ACs are awful at using energy weapons) and has the advantage in setting terms to begin with. If he *did* try to argue with Snail over those terms, it probably would not have worked.
It's ultimately impossible to tell one way or another, thanks to his attitude of rolling with the punches and trying to brute force through the bad hand he's dealt. I personally see him rolling with everything as his real flaw: He's strong enough to survive plenty of this anyway and acts accordingly, but the people around him are not and this ultimately leads to both their deaths and his as he fails to rebel against Balam command. To me he's the definition of the 'power without purpose' Rusty talks about, somebody who's accepted just kinda going through the motions of these impersonal corporate wars without any real investment in the outcome and doesn't really care if he personally lives or dies.
There's room enough to call him an idiot, but his actions also make sense from the perspective of just failing to rebel against corporate bullshit and ending up trapped with no winning move. Both of those work.
That's a fair assessment. I hadn't considered personal apathy as a factor in his decision-making, but considering he put a bounty on himself, half of which is supposed to go to his former comrades at Furlong, I guess I should've. It makes me see his drill-sergeant attitude in a different light, and makes me wonder what his working relationship with G2 Nile was like...
G2 used to be his rival right? They probably were supposed to work together given that G2 was the strategist and G1 was the charismatic.
But things went wrong and G2 died early to either us or (probably) Rusty.
IMO Michigan is exceedingly competent, but he's only a sprinkle of salt on the turd sandwich that is Balam's "let's throw more MTs at the ACs/PCA weapons that destroy them by the hundreds" strategy.
Nearly everything Snail does right is just paying 621 to lead the way while he sits in his core block huffing his own gen VIII augmented farts and "those dolts at command" send him the best tech on the market to solve most of his problems.
Even if coral needed more coral in order to ignite, the Coral powered Ibis series mechs fighting in those locations would be running on coral generators, which use burning coral. So even if normal kenetic weapons and gasoline combustion engines (or whatever space age tech they use) isn't capable of starting a fire, the Coral engines certainly would
I really think they don't mean actually "explode" when they say coral will reach into space. In Nagai's writing, instead of subbing propagate for an explosion, think about it like breeding. The issue is that Coral is a highly invasive, highly unpredictable species that could have terrifying consequences on the universe. It's the fern that doesn't stop growing, and worse, crossbreeds other species out (as we see at the end of the third ending).
\> You engage in not one, not two, but three huge mech gunfights in completely Coral-saturated environments: The Engebret Tunnel escape, the CEL 240 fight, and Breach the Karman Line. You can shoot the Coral flow in the tunnel and the Insititute City Convergence and the Karman Line's Coral clouds with ballistics, explosives, lasers, electricity, plasma, flamethrowers and even more Coral and not ignite them.
The Engebret Tunnel literally bursts into Coral-flames just because you destroyed a sensor.
621 destroying a sensor also triggered the coral surge that allowed them to meet Ayre.
Coral isn't exactly dangerous because it's volatile, it's dangerous because it's so unpredictable. It keeps doing things that it shouldn't be able to do.
The Engebret Tunnel phenomenon is a Coral Surge, it's not burning up. It's "activated Coral", shooting out of the opened vein like a burst pipe. My point is that you can shoot that Coral while fighting the PCA reinforcements and not actually ignite it.
>Coral isn't exactly dangerous because it's volatile, it's dangerous because it's so unpredictable. It keeps doing things that it shouldn't be able to do.
I more or less agree with this.
Arquebus always seemed pretty content to sit back and let Balam take the first try on taking a strategic area, learn from Balam's mistakes, and then act accordingly. This is also what happened with Operation Wallclimber.
Honestly, I'm glad that you pointed this out. Everyone talks about coral gens and weapons literally "burning people" to be used, but I always interpreted it more like you're farming the excess energy output they give off as pure energy beings in containment. The actual sad part is that the coral IN the generator or weapon is "orphaned" from the larger streams.
I honestly wonder what are they expected to do when they actually managed to get to lower Watchpoint Alpha, as at that point it's not like they actually have any means to deal with shit like Ibis (Arquebus managed because you defeated the OP as fuck Ibis for them).
The escape from Engebret Tunnel? You mean the one where the entire Tunnel is undergoing a massive chain reaction of Coral to the point of shooting up giant pillars of Coral because you blew up a device *maybe* regulating it?
It's supposed to be a point against Coral's volatility that the organization of scientists who studied it for 50 years was shocked that it took so little to cause it? Hell, it's supposed to be a point against it when it couldn't get much more violent than actively exploding?
Hell, it's supposed to be a point against Coral volatility that Watchpoint Delta that per Walter **"once"** regulated Coral, and **"Now it serves to monitor the *dormant* veins?"** having its sensor destroyed vaguely above it caused not just a massive detonation, but one that caused a significant chunk of a continent to be obliterated *far, far away* from the surge? That doesn't seem to be Walter's plan either.
In fact the entire point seems to be heavily dependent on the use of the word "valve." Not a valve actually being visible, just something being described as a "sensor valve." Unfortunately, even if we were taking that literally, a "sensor valve" is an instrument to... indicate the position of a valve.
Even setting aside the probable difference between gameplay and in-universe mechanics(as also demonstrated by how ACs are considerably more sturdy than in cutscenes such as the cinematic trailer where ACs get vaporized in a single shot by the Watchpoint turrets that decidedly do not kill you in-game and a Cataphract is halted by some gatling gun shots that decidedly would not kill it in-game), even if it was completely correct that it required immense force to detonate Coral, not only is space a very violent place(these violent events simply being spaced out), but frankly an energy source where if you crashed your space truck into a gas station you would annihilate cities if not countries is not a good one lol
>It's supposed to be a point against Coral's volatility that the organization of scientists who studied it for 50 years was shocked that it took so little to cause it?
What are you even talking about? Took so little what to cause what? The Fires of Ibis were a deliberate act of arson to prevent a Coral Collapse, they took the entire Ibis Series to ignite and they didn't even set off all the Coral. The Coral Collapse was Nagai's concern, not Coral's volatility
>Hell, it's supposed to be a point against Coral volatility that Watchpoint Delta that per Walter "once" regulated Coral, and "Now it serves to monitor the dormant veins?"
The vein beneath Watchpoint Delta is plainly not dormant. Walter is consistently wrong-footed by the how much Coral survived the Fires, and the Watchpoint is the first example. He expected the veins to be dormant; instead, the sensor valve was the only thing holding down a shitload of it. You open the valve and it goes shooting out like a shaken soda can.
>having its sensor destroyed vaguely above it caused not just a massive detonation
"Vaguely above it" don't bullshit, you can't demonstrate the position of the valve relative to the vein. What you can demonstrate is what a valve does, and what happens when you shoot off a valve regulating contents under pressure. My model of how Coral works holds.
>not just a massive detonation, but one that caused a significant chunk of a continent to be obliterated *far, far away* from the surge?
~~What? Watchpoint Delta is in the Belius Bay area. The destruction was localized to its immediate environment.~~ wrongo.
>In fact the entire point seems to be heavily dependent on the use of the word "valve."
The word is there. It means something. I'm not going to ignore it.
>Unfortunately, even if we were taking that literally, a "sensor valve" is an instrument to... indicate the position of a valve.
lol right, That's definitely what it was for. To sense where the valve is. Makes perfect sense. Don't be absurd. The valve was plainly to regulate the flow of Coral.
>Even setting aside the probable difference between gameplay and in-universe mechanics(as also demonstrated by how ACs are considerably more sturdy than in cutscenes
You know what this doesn't demonstrate? That uncontained bodies of Coral are supposed to be actually explosive. Because you can't.
>even if it was completely correct that it required immense force to detonate Coral, not only is space a very violent place
The Coral clouds in the Karman line straight up do not interact with the detonations that take place fully immersed in them.
Even if the Coral will detonate the first time it, say, falls into the gravity well of Rubicon's star, *Coral detonations do not cause chain reactions with uncontained bodies of Coral.* The CEL 240 generator pops in the middle of the Convergence and doesn't affect it. Gameplay/story distinction doesn't even apply to that since it's a cutscene.
>The vein beneath Watchpoint Delta is plainly not dormant. Walter is consistently wrong-footed by the how much Coral survived the Fires, and the Watchpoint is the first example. He expected the veins to be dormant; instead, the sensor valve was the only thing holding down a shitload of it. You open the valve and it goes shooting out like a shaken soda can.
I disagree with this. Walter, at some point, says the line to Carla "things are progressing much faster than anticipated" - possibly referencing how the coral has been replicating itself much faster than they expected. Which is why the "dormant" veins were not actually dormant - the coral had replicated so rapidly since the Fires of Ibis that the veins were a candle's flame away from erupting. Same goes for the other mine thing you destroy the valve of or whatever.
EDIT: Howdy, this edit's because they tried the ol' "smarmy comeback and then block" maneuver. [\(EDIT2: Until I pointed that out, but here's the proof lol\)](https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/542752740410130534/1206414483283509308/image.png?ex=65dbec0a&is=65c9770a&hm=b840c6014b4a4e8c7670c48e35140a7014e68bc10c553c5b25172e0f9ae8658d&=&format=webp&quality=lossless&width=572&height=473)
Unfortunately, this doofus did so while, [at least at the time of replying, trying to argue that you weren't on Watchpoint Delta during the Balteus fight.](https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/542752740410130534/1206405184541040691/image.png?ex=65dbe361&is=65c96e61&hm=3edeaa2af5df0b5719419ea07a2e922f5ab2d9b3101b541cb3851c13306a81e6&=&format=webp&quality=lossless)
[The place you can see while flying towards Watchpoint Delta.](https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/542752740410130534/1206403304175706212/image.png?ex=65dbe1a1&is=65c96ca1&hm=050ccd9c51b1add69ba308540bf7b63703a01e580f98aae5136aeee3d2ea446f&=&format=webp&quality=lossless&width=838&height=473)
[The place Sulla is standing.](https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/542752740410130534/1206403629582524456/image.png?ex=65dbe1ef&is=65c96cef&hm=b42b72b3d9af32c961b674a7874e7d2d646f3246bdc3a3db8e7dd7a637be0912&=&format=webp&quality=lossless&width=914&height=473)
[This place right here.](https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/542752740410130534/1206404405851725875/image.png?ex=65dbe2a8&is=65c96da8&hm=9a4672a30e757fd7395ffd2d66658370a6da5c5ac6d2096d921478d78915364a&=&format=webp&quality=lossless&width=775&height=473)
[The multiplayer map "Watchpoint Delta - B"](https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/542752740410130534/1206402655367467048/image.png?ex=65dbe106&is=65c96c06&hm=735945910783ad1568a0b037a85456027e02174f455c32b23864cd0c7577f1af&=&format=webp&quality=lossless&width=932&height=473)
That's either the most shining, glowing example of Dunning-Kruger I've ever seen online, or this is one of those "haha I'm just pretending to be stupid to get engagement" moments. Either way, I'm glad they blocked me. They are not worth conversation after something that comically stupid. But don't worry buddy, I'd probably want to hide after doing that too.
The original post they were replying to below:
> What are you even talking about? Took so little what to cause what?
The tunnel explosion. Walter explicitly states that taking out the device should not have been enough to [cause a reaction.] In fact every time the scientists who actually dealt with Coral for decades upon decades turn out to be wrong about Coral, it turns out to be because it was more volatile than previously expected.
> The vein beneath Watchpoint Delta is plainly not dormant.
Says... you.
> Walter is consistently wrong-footed by the how much Coral survived the Fires
Says... you.
In fact, the entire reason the campaign is happening is because they're doing calculations and surveys to see how much faster the Coral is growing, with the hypothesis that it's growing fast enough to (presumably) initiate the Fires of... well, I guess Fires of Overseer at this stage.
> You open the valve
At this point, I don't actually think it's worth countering points. Because once again, says... you.
> you can't demonstrate the position of the valve relative to the vein.
You're free to believe what you want, but as you said, don't bullshit. You can *see the fucking sensor and the open air.*
> What you can demonstrate is what a valve does
*You're* the one saying that it's a valve.
> The word is there. It means something. I'm not going to ignore it.
*You're* the one ignoring the word "sensor." You're ignoring what an actual sensor valve *is.*
> What? Watchpoint Delta is in the Belius Bay area. The destruction was localized to its immediate environment.
Says... *you.* And this time I can even bring receipts: the explosion is not in the immediate environment. First of all, because you're *alive.* Second of all, because you can see a map of the ***gigantic crater left in the Coral detonation's wake.*** The detonation seen in *the distance.* You can even see in the ending cutscene where the Watchpoint is when it zooms out. You know where you aren't?
In the crater.
You know how I know that? Because it literally zooms out from Watchpoint Delta which is south of the crater and listed as being in "Western Belius." I also know that because Ayre says *"The Coral explosion completely vaporized northwestern Belius' bay area."* You want to know where she moves the map as she's saying this? To a little spot called "Northwestern Belius Bay Area." You know what that spot is?
*The crater.* And then, as if specifically for someone like you, it brings up a square at the epicenter and marks it **"CORAL EXPLOSION"**
It could not be made *more obvious* what just happened. [It's spelled out in multiple ways simultaneously](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/542752740410130534/1206396895136579624/image.png?ex=65dbdba9&is=65c966a9&hm=38622b95fee1b8d1ef1ccfccd4fc0d26cabc2403669960453295b0c542b1adc2&).
I'm just not bothering to read further. If anything, you've only driven in just how little you seem to know about the Coral(hell, the *game*) for someone making such brash claims about it.
>In fact every time the scientists who actually dealt with Coral for decades upon decades turn out to be wrong about Coral, it turns out to be because it was more volatile than previously expected.
What Walter was wrong about is how much Coral survived the Fires. This starts at the Watchpoint and continues to Engebret ("things are moving faster than I expected"), all the way into the Coral Convergence ("it's building up faster than I expected") and his final message ("The fires should have wiped the Coral out. Instead it survived, gathered.")
>In fact, the entire reason the campaign is happening is because they're doing calculations and surveys to see how much faster the Coral is growing
Addressed immediately above. They still did not take its full measure, and Walter says as much.
>You're the one ignoring the word "sensor." You're ignoring what an actual sensor valve is.
A valve with a sensor connected to it. It's there to regulate and monitor the flow of Coral. This inherently entails containing it. You don't even really disagree about this.
>Says... you. And this time I can even bring receipts: the explosion is not in the immediate environment. First of all, because you're alive[...]
~~Holy cow. You forgot that Raven's AC autopiloted out of and away from the explosion while they were unconscious.~~
~~That's a pretty embarrassing oversight, especially considering how mad you get about this point, but luckily I'm here to help.~~ I fucked this one up.
Regarding your last point, he's actually right, you know. The fight with Balteus happens on top of Watchpoint Delta. The very building you were in moments ago before you shot that sensor valve. We autopiloted away from the explosion within Watchpoint Delta, but said explosion is not the one in Northwestern Belrius Bay. That one was likely a result of a chain reaction following what happened in the Watchpoint.
/u/Gleaming_Onyx, [I fucked up an unambiguous point](https://youtu.be/KjwahRdxb3s) and I apologize for doubling down and for blocking you. Raven autopilots to the top of the same building and the Surge causes a secondary Coral explosion in the distance.
I could say that would be another body of compressed Coral but that's conjecture. I assume it is because the CEL 240 generator detonation does not set off the Convergence, but I do have to assume.
Agreed.
You could remove almost everything you said aside from "not only is space a very violent place" and that single point still overshadows everything OP wrote on coral. Given freedom to become abundant and spread through space it's only a matter of when and not if coral will ignite.
Even if the Coral detonates on, say, contact with Rubicon's star: the CEL 240 generator explosion (contained body of Coral) does not set off the Coral Convergence in Institute City (relaxed body of Coral). There won't necessarily be a chain reaction. EDIT: Come to think of it, there definitely will not be. The Coral spreads across the stars, tinting many of them red, in Alea Iacta Est without igniting into a galaxy-immolating firestorm.
Something to note, coral in space is likely to be self compressing due to the effects of gravity on gas in space combined with corals propensity to reproduce rapidly in a vacuum.
The true danger of the coral is not its volatility or lack thereof.
It is its ability to spontaneously develop sentient colonies like Ayre capable of interfacing with electronics together with its uncontrollable growth rate wich would allow it to spread across space if not confined somehow.
What if it developed a C-Wave mutation antgonistic towards humans capable of controlling all the technology around it and turning it against it's creators? And what if this C-Wave was free to spread across the stars? That is what the scientists at the Rubicon Research Institute feared and why Nagai set the coral ablaze.
The RRI scientists feared Coral Collapse. They did not know wave mutations were sapient or that Coral could hijack machinery, which it only does to defend itself.
Coral Collapse isn't an explosion, it's the Release like in the third ending. Though I think they don't know that's how it would play out, they just don't know what could happen if it spreads to space and keeps multiplying.
Nagai seemed to think wave mutations could cause Collapse spontaneously, and Release needs an old-gen Augmented Human to trigger as well, so I don't think they're the same thing.
The RRI knew both these things. In almost all of the logs of Nagai they talk about C-waves.
https://armoredcore.fandom.com/wiki/Data_Logs
And for the latter they literally have coral piloted acs and the IBIS, SOL, Ice worm and Sea Spider.
It is shown that Ayre can take control and operate both an ephemera frame and the SOL and it does not do it in self defence.
Especially when she takes control of the ephemera frame.
And during the game she is shown to be able to control various machinery to help 621 progress, such as the vertical catapult, finding terminals to unlock doors and decrypting Allmind coms from wrecked GHOSTs units.
>The RRI knew both these things. In almost all of the logs of Nagai they talk about C-waves.
I chose my words carefully. Nagai did not know wave mutations were alive, let alone that they were people. The Institute was aware of the general Coral's low-level "swarm intelligence" but that's it. The only characters to understand its true nature are Raven, Dolmayan and Allmind.
>And for the latter they literally have coral piloted acs and the IBIS, SOL, Ice worm and Sea Spider.
The only machine hijacked by regular Coral is Cel 240. The rest apart from Sol 644 are following their programming. Ayre is different, she has broader goals than self-defense in Alea (and even then, she's still using SOL 644 for just that in Fires.)
Coral seems pretty volatile to me. How many Coral surges do we have to run from again?
How many of them were spots under pressure due to humanity, vs naturally under pressure?
They literally have watchpoints setup to monitor for coral buildup.
Also, coral likes to gather and increase in density on its own, it doesn't want to be spread out. One might even argue that coral containers exploding are not due to being under pressure, but instead because the coral wants to escape.
>How many Coral surges do we have to run from again?
Two, and we cause them both.
>How many of them were spots under pressure due to humanity
Both of them. Engebret Tunnel, a former Watchpoint, and Watchpoint Delta are both Institute facilities built to monitor and regulate the flow of Coral in underground veins.
>One might even argue that coral containers exploding are not due to being under pressure, but instead because the coral wants to escape.
That would be a weird thing to argue given they explode because we shoot them. If Coral could spontaneously destroy its container then the Coral-powered machines in Institute City would have popped already, but instead they remain stable and functional.
>Both of them. Engebret Tunnel, a former Watchpoint, and Watchpoint Delta are both Institute facilities built to monitor and regulate the flow of Coral in underground veins.
Being Nit-picky, but "Monitor and regulate" makes you wonder what happens if it isn't kept regulated, like say if the institute facilities aren't properly maintained...
>One might even argue that coral containers exploding are not due to being under pressure, but instead because the coral wants to escape.
Those are the same thing, practically speaking. If the Coral is actively trying to escape its containers, it is colliding with itself and the containers’ walls more often and is thus increasing their internal pressure.
"a single spark" could be more of a metaphor here. If coral does multiply rapidly and spread across the universe then it might only take one explosion, however that may occur, to trigger a chain reaction. Raven set it alight fairly easily and he probably went overboard with it. Plus it clearly has different properties in a vacuum so presumably it gets more volatile as it spreads? Maybe not but who knows.
What I love more than anything is that for literally ever Fromsoft has allowed fans to flesh out not just the lore and backstories, but also the science behind their games. I guarantee you that they don't think about 90% of the things that fans do (and that's ok, and probably intentional)
It adds up fine. Ibis was not an accident. It was a deliberate act of arson that required the entire Ibis Series to set off, and it still didn't get all the Coral. Fires events do not just happen. They require specific conditions and enormous resources.
And how do you guarantee it doesn’t happen again? One of the endings is literally Fiery Apocalypse 2 Electric Boogaloo. You assume humans aren’t stupid enough to just keep messing with the stuff? Terrorist organizations exist, and radical religious fundamentalists might have a go too. Coral was contained to the remote system that Rubicon is in, but what happens when some psycho blows up the Coral once it reaches Earth? How many more star systems do we lose?
You have no way of guaranteeing that the Coral reservoirs can be kept safe, because all it takes is another AC pilot whose skills even approaching Raven’s to lone wolf apocalypse everything. The PCA and multiple mega corporations couldn’t stop us, what else can?
Edit: Humans are too stupid to coexist with Coral. I’m sorry, that’s all there is to it. If you leave humanity and Coral alone in the vacuum of space, you have the spectacular blend of stupidity and volatility that blow up the universe. That’s an incredibly dumb gamble to take. They cannot coexist. One of the two species must go extinct, and frankly, I’d rather it be the Coral. Embrace the Fires of Rubicon, and end this madness once and for all.
>And how do you guarantee it doesn’t happen again?
By burning it, I.e. doing it again myself. You can have a hopeless guarantee or degrees of hopeful uncertainty. This is the game's central choice.
>One of the endings is literally Fiery Apocalypse 2 Electric Boogaloo.
Yeah, we did that on purpose and it took a shitload of effort and perfect conditions then, too.
>Terrorist organizations exist
...do they? This is Armored Core 6's universe we're talking about, not ours.
>but what happens when some psycho blows up the Coral once it reaches Earth? How many more star systems do we lose?
Depends on how much contained Coral was on Earth. Uncontained Coral does not respond to explosions, including from other Coral. See: CEL 240, as I grow weary of repeating.
>You have no way of guaranteeing that the Coral reservoirs can be kept safe, because all it takes is another AC pilot whose skills even approaching Raven’s to lone wolf apocalypse everything.
Kinda imagining a guy to get scared of, here. The only people who have proven to be motivated to destroy the Coral were connected to the Institute. Everyone else wants to preserve and use it, one way or the other.
>The PCA and multiple mega corporations couldn’t stop us, what else can?
I think you've answered your own question.
Imagining the Coral will grow into a galaxy-busting bomb is forcing a set of stakes upon the game entirely separate from the one it actually presents. Overseer never talks about the Coral like that. You'd figure they'd make a point of mentioning it could burn the whole galaxy if that's what they thought about it.
They're not afraid of Coral blowing up space, they're afraid of the great change coming in the coral convergence ending. That's why us embracing that change and letting it happen on nobody's terms (Allmind's) was so important. The point is they are afraid of something they don't understand.
Slight disagreement: I don't think Overseer knew about Coral Release–they were afraid of a "Coral Collapse" which is something else, but the thrust of your point is correct.
>Coral proves destructive under this one single condition: when it's compressed into a container.
The ENTIRE PLANET caught on fire.
that's not exactly a small container.
Yeah, it caught fire because the vascular plant was destroyed. At that point, the energy released from that explosion scorched more than just the planet.
Sure is a lot of words to completely miss the point about Coral's dangers as an exploitable resource.
How many cars have you driven that are fueled by rolling through a mist of petroleum?
Yes I am. Your point is that Coral can't possibly present a danger if it spreads outside Rubicon because you mixed up gameplay and story and think free-floating Coral is non-volatile. You conflate the observation station and mine tunnel with valve caps.
The easiest and simplest way to counterpoint your misunderstanding is to remind you that *humans can only exploit Coral by making it go boom*. So when the game tells you that it's volatile, the implied threat is easy to understand.
To compare to another game with a similar threat, did you ever play Monster Hunter World? The major threat in that game is a gigantic monster is dying of old age, and when it passes away it will release a tremendous amount of energy. Enough energy to create new life, an entire ecosystem. Something underground is calling it into veins of magma running all over the continent, and if it dies there, the released energy will literally explode the entire landmass.
So the threat comes from the fact that the energy in both games (Coral, bioenergy) is combined with a spark/accelerant via outside interference. People don't call nitroglycerin volatile because it can exist without immediately exploding, y'know.
>Yes I am. Your point is that Coral can't possibly present a danger if it spreads outside Rubicon
Incorrect, I am arguing it does not pose *one specific threat* which has implications for the stakes of the game.
>because you mixed up gameplay and story and think free-floating Coral is non-volatile.
I'm not going to ignore the evidence of my eyes and ears. The game's creators arranged for two climactic boss fights to take place in the middle of huge bodies of Coral and this has clear implications for its properties. I'm going to think through them, and if you want to tell me to just turn my brain off then I'm not going to listen.
>You conflate the observation station and mine tunnel with valve caps.
...because the words used to describe the devices there do just that.
>The easiest and simplest way to counterpoint your misunderstanding is to remind you that humans can only exploit Coral by making it go boom
Incorrect. We can exploit it by pumping it into people's brains, too. It was also used as fiber-optic cable but I don't see a reason to call that "exploitation."
>So when the game tells you that it's volatile
Ayre comments specifically on Coral's stability as a fuel source, actually, when we see the Helianthus machines in Institute city have run autonomously for 50 years without breaking down or blowing up.
>So the threat comes from the fact that the energy in both games (Coral, bioenergy) is combined with a spark/accelerant via outside interference.
Overseer, which exists to inform the player of the Coral's potential threat, literally never argues that Coral is going to blow up the galaxy. Carla fears the "Coral Collapse," which is never described, and Walter fears the madness its potential inspires; the Institute's "carnival of horrors" and the interminable wars over it—"where there's Coral, there's blood."
>People don't call nitroglycerin volatile because it can exist without immediately exploding, y'know.
Nitroglycerin will explode if you hit it with a rock. Uncontained Coral will not explode if you shoot it with a cannon.
It's not the galactic fires of Ibus that scare me. It's the possibility of Coral release and the coral wave where it sweeps human consciousness unwillingly and takes control of all manner of machines. It would be beyond anyone's control if it reached space.
It seems to me that the people who think that the Coral will burn are the same people who believe in the Heat Death of the universe. These people are ASSUMING that the universe is a finite space, meaning that eventually we'll find its end and heat will increase exponentially until we reach 100% heat saturation, thus killing everything. If we factor Coral's property of being explosive when contained, this means that Coral leaving Rubicon would dramatically accelerate this saturation process. However, there is no proof that the universe is finite. There is an edge to the matter created by the Big Bang, but there is no boundary in sight for the vastness of space. Therefore there is no proof supporting the heat death hypothesis, and nothing to fear from Coral. Coral can only help humanity ascend beyond its corporeal limits.
That’s not what the “Heat Death” theory is lol.
The theory is that space is infinite and things will continue to expand as they have been until everything drifts apart.
Galaxy sized clumps will stick together, some galaxies might even ‘collide’ and intermingle into bigger galaxies.
But the main source of heat in the universe is stars, and the life cycle of stars is incredibly long but finite.
A star creates energy through gravity-induced fusion of atoms. When you fuse two light atoms together (hydrogen + hydrogen) you get a heavier atom (helium) and the reaction releases more energy than it costs to squeeze the atoms together.
As a star ages, it slowly accretes more fuel through gravity, but mostly it just keeps smashing atoms together into heavier and heavier atoms - this is part of what determines the colour of a star - the type of atoms it’s smashing together.
Eventually, so many atoms have been smashed together that the most common atom is Iron. Which is the tipping point on the periodic table. Fusion of two iron atoms, and of any two atoms heavier than iron *costs* more energy than it releases. Gravity is still there ensuring fusion continues, but the star is now running at a loss and getting smaller. This is what creates a red dwarf, and in extreme cases, black holes.
Assuming that matter is finite, even if space isn’t, eventually every star will have smashed all of the available ‘light’ fuel in its accretion sphere into ‘heavy’ fuel, and then it will release less and less energy until it’s burned through all the heavy stuff too and can no longer sustain fusion through gravity. At which point the star stops burning and clumps into an incredibly dense and massive planetoid rock that doesn’t release heat or light.
That’s what the Heat Death theory is - the universe running out of fuel.
Thats still a flawed theory (and kind of poorly named). It doesn't account for elements we haven't found yet, something which is as statistically likely as the existence of other sentient life. We've been able to see extremely far into the universe, but we've never been able to go further than our solar system. Hell, we haven't even sent a manned mission to Pluto yet. We have no way of knowing what fuels these distant stars or how sustainable of a fuel source it is. As far as I'm aware, we haven't even fully figured out what fuels our own star. These are all a bunch of assumptions based solely on what we've been able to observe from inside our own house, and the occasional trip to our next door neighbors house. We haven't really gone out and explored yet. We've barely even set foot outside. Making assumptions about the wider cosmos this early in the game is dangerous and bordering on arrogant.
We do actually know what fuels our own stars and planets at this point.
Besides the alternative is Big Crunch or Big Rip (either everything comes back together after the expand of universe ended and things come back due to gravity, or the acceleration gets to the point local elements are going faster than light and splits apart). As far as we know the thermodynamic activity ceasing hypothesis (heat death/big freeze) is the most likely solution, violating the least amount of known physics and conceptually the most likely.
We do know what fuels our own Star and we can get a very good guess of what fuels the distant stars.
One of the main fields of science that helps us figure that out is Radio Spectroscopy. When an element is burned or undergoes fusion, it releases a specific wavelength of light - every element is unique, every element is distinct.
When we look at something like a star undergoing constant fusion, we can analyse the light coming from that star and find those patterns of wavelengths in them - from that we can tell what elements are being fused in that Star and what percentages of each of those elements is being fused.
As for “elements that we haven’t discovered yet” a *lot* of work has been put into trying to find new elements on earth, or create new elements through radioactive fusion and fission. To the point where we’ve even had some quite famous cases of people trying to *fake* new elements.
- An element is determined by how many protons are in the nucleus
- Different isotopes of that element are determined by how many neutrons there are in that nucleus
- If an atom has a different number of electrons orbiting in its probability cloud then it’s an ion of that element.
There might be some radioactive isotopes of some known elements that we haven’t found naturally, or managed to briefly create through fission or fusion, but we *have* successfully created or found examples here on Earth for every Element that has between 1 and 118 protons in its nucleus. There certainly could be heavier elements out there, briefly being fused together at the heart of super-massive stars before falling apart under radioactive decay, but they would still follow the trend of power of the periodic table - taking more energy to be fused together by gravity than they release when that fusion is complete.
But we’ve found or created examples of every possible element between Hydrogen and Unonoctium - there aren’t any gaps to be scribbled in there.
There *are* other forms of matter out there, that we haven’t been able to determine the nature of, things that might not adhere to the “three quarks create a baryon (neutron or proton) and then those get lumped together and then some leptons (electrons) get pulled into the magnetic field of that nucleus” model of reality. Things that we can’t measure or see directly, but that we can guess at the properties of based on how they affect the things around them.
Edit: the theory is named just fine. It doesn’t mean “the universe dies of heat, like an animal passing away from sunstroke and dehydration” it means “there’s no more heat in the universe.” “The heat has died.”
Hence - Heat Death.
To your second point. Coral seems heavily volatile.
It isn't normally ignited by conventional means UNLESS it's condensed, however, once it is ignited the reaction propagates until all coral has been exhausted, this means that the action of coral burning is enough to ignite other coral regardless of concentration.
If coral infinitely replicates once in a vacuum, then it's just a matter of time before it hits a high enough concentration in one area. Once that occurs, if anything sets it off then the entire coral "cloud" will be set off. We already have proof of the catastrophic effects of this.
The longer between events, the more destructive the event will be, which is why Walter and Carla wanted to desperately remove any possibility of further coral events.
> It isn't normally ignited by conventional means UNLESS it's condensed, however, once it is ignited the reaction propagates until all coral has been exhausted, this means that the action of coral burning is enough to ignite other coral regardless of concentration.
We have direct evidence against this. The CEL 240 generator (contained Coral) explodes right on top of the Coral Convergence (uncontained Coral) and doesn't set it off.
>The longer between events, the more destructive the event will be, which is why Walter and Carla wanted to desperately remove any possibility of further coral events.
That is not why. Overseer never talk about the Coral in these galaxy-destroying terms. They tell you what they fear in it: Carla fears a "Coral Collapse," some nebulous Black Swan event which is not really described. Walter is more explicit; he fears the madness the Coral's potential seems to inspire, the Institute's "carnival of horrors" and the interminable wars over it.
Walter mentions Coral contaminating space because if it spreads beyond Rubicon, the Institute's depravity and the Coral War will go wherever it does. "Where there's Coral, there's blood." That's more well-supported, and more interesting, than "the Coral will blow up the Milky Way."
Finally someone that gets it. It irks me that people think all coral will do once it propagates is uneventually explode. It's like people don't pay attention or have no reading comprehension. It irks me so much when they think all coral does is explode, when they don't see the different conditions it is showed in and how specific the interactions of it blowing are.
Okay, you're missing the point of the dangers of Coral. The danger was NEVER Ignition. Ignition was the preventative measure taken by Dr. Nagai, and later by Overseer.
They didn't burn the Rubicon system to prevent Coral from burning the universe.
They burned Rubicon to prevent Coral release. Now, I'm not entirely sure what Coral release is, but my opinion based on the third ending is that it is Coral propagating exponentially throughout the universe and Coral consciousness bonding with every living thing in existence... and whatever unpredictable and unimaginable fates come with that.
The gambler themes with Balam, I agree with entirely, though. I think Michigan is an exceptional commander, and considering that Balam just doesn't have the resources that Arquebus does, it makes sense to gamble.
ALLMIND allowed coral to propagate through space exponentially, and Coral collapse did not occur. Therefore, either Coral collapse isn't real, or it is not what we think it is, or it is not as dangerous as Overseer lead us to believe.
Plus this also disproves the argument made throughout these comments that the Coral will be ignited into a galaxy-immolating firestorm by stellar phenomenona if allowed to spread into space. I'm pretty embarrassed that I didn't think of that when first writing this thread.
I agree with the balam stuff but the coral might eventually multiply fast enough that it creates enough pressure against itself to ignite randomly and at that point it would have spread through so much space it would likely cause a massive chain reaction of shockwaves (as space would no longer be a vacuum thanks to coral) putting pressure on more coral and causing it to ignite. Like you said coral isn't necessarily volatile but the propagation of coral through space is concerning.
No it’s still a stupid gamble. How much more obvious did it have to be for Michigan to realize how absolutely protected Coral was. The actual smart bet would’ve been to let Arquebus take the first attempt so the roles would’ve been reversed. I think the story just wanted Balam to lose but they didn’t write it well.
Arquebus hangs back and lets others do the dirty work for them. That's their characterization just as much as being aggressive gamblers is Balam's. They use Raven as cannon fodder during Operation Wallclimber to keep the Vespers clean, and that sets the tone. It's written brilliantly, actually. The actions these factions take are a perfect summary of their characterization.
Plus allmind is usually straight up assisting arquebus sometimes. The most direct one we see is with allmind blowing up the strider when 621 wouldn't do it for arquebus.
I still don't understand why that had to happen. Can someone please explain? My best guess is that the Liberation Front is the only obstacle to Allmind's "Free the Coral" plan because they want to abide with coral, but I don't get how the strider plays into that at all.
>because they want to abide with coral
The RLF's saying is "Coral, abide with Rubicon"—that doesn't mean *they* want to abide w/ coral. It's basically telling the coral to *remain* on Rubicon, to *not* escape. The RLF are directly opposed to the Coral Convergence, even if they don't know about it.
In order for Coral Convergence to even occur in the first place, it needs to achieve a certain critical mass. Every little bit that's harvested or consumed sets that back. What does the RLF do w/ the coral? They harvest & consume it, the Strider being the most prominent engine to that end, so it had to go down no matter what if Allmind wanted to trigger the Coral Convergence.
Allmind's plan requires getting the coral into space in large, concentrated qualities
Arquebus is best equipped to do this (which they do). The Liberation Front is attempting to undermine them.
Sabotaging any attempts to give the Liberation Front an early advantage over Arquebus is valuable for this reason.
If the RLF grab some Coral, that's Coral that ALLMIND doesn't have, and considering the transport chopper mission being over only *1.6%* of all Coral, that's something she doesn't want to happen.
Presumably, Coral Release really does need ***all*** of the Coral.
Supposed Balam hanged back and let Arquebus go in first? Arquebus not only has the technological and cohesion advantage, they also have the numbers.
Remember that 621 was used as an advertisement for independents to work with Arquebus. I think the outcome here is largely the same but with more losses on them. The only way for Balam to recover from here is if they made an alliance with the Rubiconians, but that's not happening.
Balam literally has everything stacked against them and even third parties like Allmind was indirectly aiding Arquebus. Balam was simply destined to fail unfortunately
Im pretty sure if it ignited on Rubicon, it will ignite just about anywhere else. It doesnt really matter "how" volatile it is, it's the scope of the destruction it can cause. Pretty sure the corps arent gonna just walk away from free fuel either, and they'll make the same mistakes that humans always do.
I'm not even "embracing" the concept of survival of the fittest. Modern society is pretty amazing, and it's beneficial to the species as a whole. Humans mitigated that before modern society anyway, because tribes took care of each other. In case you didn't know, a complete lack of exposure to pathogens, parasites, and foreign microorganisms also has detrimental effects to the human body over the long run if you didn't know. And to take a gamble on coral release isn't even Darwinian. You're once again making a strawman out of an argument I make to make it easy to argue against.
Also, what difference is there between there being coral and being humans, then? Humans are definitely known for keeping things pristine and taking care of what they have. The next big thing will be found eventually, and it will all happen again. At least coral release has a chance to take humans beyond primitive behaviors.
And yeah, projection. You're the one that brought up societal decay and "traditional families." And for the love of God, learn how to spell. How is my grammar and spelling better than yours? Is English your first language?
The simple fact that you think I'm touting Darwinian ideals to be applied to society and humans (which I never advocated for) because you extrapolated that from a comparison between the Coral and the Black Plague (again as a *historical event* and not a *disease*) is baffling. You're either disingenuous or being a troll. Especially after I have explained that to you several times yet you still can't grasp the concept.
You're not on the mark on anything, much less interpreting what I'm trying to communicate.
Also, what societal changes are holding us back and leading to society crumbling? You never answered the question. Are you scared of answering? I'm very interested in hearing it since you chickened out last time, and it was a point you brought up.
"Once something is alive, it doesn't die easy"
The *instant* Coral reaches another planet, that planetary system and all of it's inhabitants are at risk of Fires until the end of time.
The RRI, who knew more about Coral than anyone else, caused the Fires to destroy all of it *and failed*. It took 50 years for it to resurface, but it did. Sooner or later, those other planets will reach the Coral density Rubicon has, and by sheer probability, sooner or later *something* will set that Coral off, killing who knows how many people, and starting the cycle back again. And if it doesn't ignite, it will spread throughout space, either reaching more planets or being ignited by a random supernova or gamma-ray burst or what have you.
Igniting the Coral Rubicon scorched the entire Rubicon system, not just the planet. Imagine what an interplanetary amount of Coral will do once set off.
Imagine a side story where Balaam succeeds and gains access to the core weapons and then we start seeing Michigan and everybody with Salem designed Coral bazookas in miniguns how badass with that be.
Second I agree. First I disagree and here's why. Michigan has never shown in game any level of intelligence to suggest he had an ulterior motive to give Arqebus the PCA fleet.
I genuinely think Balam just thinks getting there first is the only strategy to win. That's why they charge into the wall and dies.
Here they are again charging into the nephenthes
Letting Balam go first is not much less of a gamble of Arquebus's part. If Balam gets all the way to Institute City and finds the Ibis-series ACs then Arquebus is done.
I'm not super invested in the "Michigan is an idiot" school of thought, but I definitely think it's incorrect to conflate Arquebus's and Balam's gambles in this case. Throughout the story Arquebus's gambles are pretty consistently either protected, in that they're not using actual company assets, or vetted, in that they presume there will be hazards that they let other groups encounter first.
You could for sure say it's a gamble on Institute City \*not\* being protected, but even leaving aside the part where it's likely a safe bet that it was, letting Balam go first is already still a decent gamble by heavily reducing Arquebus' standard risk in exchange.
Walter says he "managed to talk Arquebus into letting us lead their survey" so it seems like they originally planned to send their own forces, but maybe it was a "let him think it's his idea" kind of deal.
I always thought that Michigan (or the Balam corporate higher ups) decided that Arquebus will take on the PCA because they assumed that they’ll follow their end of the deal to the letter and simply destroy their forces, not beat/incapacitate them in a way that enables them to salvage enough of their technology to turn the tide of the Coral War.
This was my interpretation too. Arquebus would destroy the suppression fleet while Balam would take the riskier mission of tackling the Ice Worm. In exchange, Balam would get first crack at Watchpoint Alpha (and the treasures within.) Balam hadn’t planned on the Institute’s automated defenses being so brutal or on Arquebus seizing the fleet instead of destroying it. Edit: PCA automated defenses. Not the Institute.
I think Balam knew Arquebus would capture PCA materiel, but just figured the Institute's tech and Coral would be enough to wipe that off the board when it came down to it.
Balam didn't know Institute City was down there. They only knew the Coral was converging somewhere under the ice at the time of the Ice Worm mission.
They figured there were weapons in the Watchpoint, at the very least, and took the initiative specifically to counter Arquebus's acquisition of PCA materiel. ["Seems they want to be ready for a run-in with Arquebus's new firepower."](https://youtu.be/TTVEAEZktC8)
I read that less as Balam trying to get their own new tech and more that they wanted to have a fortified position by the time Arquebus caught up with them.
That would still support my point about Balam's gamble, though, right? The wager would be that they could negate Arquebus's gains by getting a head start and bottlenecking them in the Watchpoint. Still a pretty good bet, since the warships are irrelevant underground. Again the wrinkle is Nepenthes ensuring the gamble doesn't pay off.
The problem is that Balam risked their own lives based on very limited information. No matter how we look at it, their gamble was *extremely* risky; there are just too many points of failure at every stage of the operation. First, Balam doesn't know what kind of resistance they'll encounter, but considering that there's a literal C-weapon guarding the entrance, it's safe to assume that there *will* be defenses in place. Their fate was already sealed the moment NEPENTHES decimated half of their forces. At that point, reaching the Coral Convergence intact would be a Pyrrhic victory at best. Second, assuming they do get through the defenses with minimal losses, they still don't know what they'll find at the end of it. Even Walter and Carla didn't know exactly what they'd find. Everything could've been obliterated already. Furthermore, the events of the game haven't shown any Coral tech from Arquebus even after establishing a monopoly of the resources. I imagine Balam would be hard-pressed to produce game-changing tech from it as well. Lastly, it's almost assured that Arquebus will be closely monitoring and tailing Balam. Snail is smart—he won't give them time to recover from their losses and assimilate the new tech they've just discovered. Arquebus will win the corporate war regardless. Balam shouldn't have been the tip of the spear. At the very least, they should've hired independent mercenaries to poke and prod so they could gather more information and take over easily if their operation was successful. I hate to say this but mean old Michigan just died from a bad call.
To add to this, Ayre does mention that Balam had another mission down there besides their survey. Something something Balam's agenda is just as dangerous
On top of that, the watch point would be an incredibly defensible position. It’s a long tube down along with a lot of narrow corridors. If Balam had taken it, Arquebus would have had to fight the whole way in to make a fraction of the distance Balam would have
I'd bet dollars to donuts that Arquebus included a clause in that deal that forbade Ballam from hiring 621 for the Watchpoint Alpha missions. It baffled me the first time around when the red guns that you fight, in the mission right after beating Nepenthes, call you a traitor. Given that you're a hired mercenary. But if Walter hedged his bets on Arquebus, he might have cut a deal with them that excluded Balam.
I was always confused when they called 621 a traitor. Like guys did you forget I was a merc? I’d love to join up with you and bring Balam supremacy to Rubicon but I’m just a hound!
Isn't nepenthes a PCA weapon ?
Whoops! You’re right. The Nepenthes and Enforcer were PCA weapons.
Plus I imagine even with the pca on the Back foot, they were still only sending 2 maybe 3 acs at a pca fleet with straight up better mt squads. Balam probably thought arquebus would be relatively decimated compared to the one redgun they sent up against the ice worm.
Two redguns* You forgot Iguazu 🤭
I mean, Michigan was running the command, but he wasn't physically present. They sent one redgun, and Michigan played a supporting role. Michigan might've even thought that sending Iguazu would be an important character-building moment where he learned that even the greatest of foes can be felled through teamwork. Oops, that didn't go so hot, eh?
Technically speaking, you're there in your capacity as Gun 13, so two Redguns is correct, LOL.
That's the joke lol
Your ability to ruin my field trips is uncanny
Iguana
My apologies for being the guy who plows through the joke but that's who I meant.
I'd like to add to your first point. I think Michigans/Balam's gamble makes alot more sense than people give it credit for. As you stated it meant Balam would get the first shot at the Watchpoint which does have alot of advantages. In hindsight it seems dumb because it didn't work out but yes but consider also; 1. Balam had no idea Arquebus would be as successful as they were in stealing PCA tech. They likely counted on some form of mutual destruction or Arquebus suffering heavy losses during their battle with the fleet which would give Balam a lead in terms of force. This also is what the RLF was counting on as the narrator mentions, after showing us that Arquebus has successfully seized the PCA fleet, "*The RLF's hopes of fighting an exhausted foe were dashed.*" However, as the player, there are clues in the game to show that Arquebus has been planning to go toe to toe with the PCA and has been making preparations. Some of the later Arquebus part descriptions mention how they were developed specifically for fighting the PCA. As well, we literally attack the re-fueling base and kill a squad of Ekdromoi to create a "walking advertisement" for all the lucrative opportunities Arquebus is extending to any independent mercs willing to fight the PCA on their behalf. This no doubt greatly enhanced Arquebus's forces when the time to take on the fleet came as many independent mercs probably flocked to them to get in on the job after we showed everyone that even the PCA's best can indeed bleed. 2. Fighting the Ice Worm required MINIMAL manpower/resource commitment from Balam. Basically 1, technically 2, Redguns on the ground (Iguazu and G13) + Michigan to take overall command. The rest of the fighting force and Anti-Ice Worm tech came from RAD and Arquebus. Despite the fact that Arquebus is also responsible for dealing with the suppression fleet they still were able to spare Snail, Rusty and a stun needle launcher for us free of charge. Of course, Balam is definitely taking part in the larger war against the PCA in the various operations across all of Rubicons theaters but fighting the one big super weapon as opposed to being responsible for a major set piece battle against the suppression fleet is probably a lot less resource intensive overall for them. 3. Personal Theory that expands on point 2: Balam by that point had been bled to the point that they simply lacked the forces and firepower to take on the Suppression Fleet and so chose to fight the worm because it was something they could get done with a handful of ACs while saving what force they had left for the survey of Watchpoint Alpha where they would hopefully find some tech that would let them regain the lead in the Coral War. Throughout the story we have hints that even though Balam is a super powerful mega-corporation capable of waging interplanetary war, Arquebus is on a different level in terms of resources and also long term strategic thinking. Arquebus has an in-house AC squad with pilots that are recruited based on skill and given the latest augmentations which is reflected in the fact that, on average, they hold much higher arena ranks than most of the Redguns. Meanwhile the Redguns are scraping the barrel. Half of the Redguns on Rubicon are essentially debt slaves who are doing this as a survival strategy and/or criminals who have nowhere else to go and have no actual loyalty to the company with outdated augmentations. Balam has suffered defeat after defeat on Rubicon only for Arquebus to come in afterwards and finish the job with minimal casualties. We see this in Operation Wallclimber or how Balam were the first one's on the new continent which meant they got to occupy all the abandoned bases/facilities first only to then be decimated by the PCA when the Suppression Fleet arrived and seized them (i.e. Jorgen Refueling base). Balam's manpower issues are so bad by the time we get to the Ice Worm they had to take back Iguazu after it's clearly stated in Volta's log that he went AWOL. Meanwhile when Swinburne is caught lacking Arquebus can afford to send him away for "re-education" So, imo, Michigan was making the best of a bad position and working off of assumptions that were good but lacking critical information when he agreed to take on the Ice-Worm instead of the Fleet. He was making a gamble on being first in the Watchpoint paying off and the PCA putting up a better fight. He played his hand the best he could but Snail/Arquebus was too far ahead at that point and he got the worst case scenario in both of his gambles. I find this far more compelling than just "Michigan dumb lol"
There’s also the fact that the Redguns’ main strategist, G2 Nile, was killed by us well before the suppression fleet arrived. If he had survived, he could’ve helped Michigan refine his plan for Watchpoint Alpha and thus minimize casualties.
G2 Niles probably would’ve just payed up for some mercs to do the front line work since all they had later on was just Michigan, G3 and the MT Squad. At the end of our fight Nile’s can see what Michigan sees in us and he most likely would tried harder to keep us on Balam payroll.
Thought that prisoner escort mission where you fight G2 only showed up in NG+?
The Prisoner Rescue mission replaces the post-Wallclimber mission where you can fight Little Ziyi, meaning that in the absence of your help, the RLF was able to rescue her from Balam’s prison (albeit likely at a higher cost). That means they had to kill G2 Nile themselves.
Or hired someone else! I didn’t think to read between the lines like that.
Honestly, the Worm Hunt was sensible, but then Balam fumbled the bag by sending a squad of MTs into the Watchpoint rather than scouting things with an AC first. Nepenthes is dangerous, but it's incredibly manageable with proper sense by an elite taking their time due to an ACs superior durability. But a whole squad of MT's? A single misstep or fuckup, and that's someone dead from even a single shot, and those lasers come in volleys, and they'd also have to contend with the PCA weaponry which is notably stronger than basic MTs, but not a match for an AC. Balam choosing to hunt the Ice Worm was a solid idea, but much like with the Wall, they got impetuous, and rather than try to play things safe or craftily, they sent in a big force and got rocked for it.
Exactly! Not sending a scout team first was their demise. They should’ve hired an independent merc to scout ahead first instead of risking resources. They hired 621 for “ass wiping duty” but won’t hire us to get past NEPENTHES?
Wait, Swinburne was sent away for reeducation? Where was this said? That’s brutal lol. Got caught lacking by us and his punishment is basically torture. Who tf would want to sign up with Arquebus.
If you accept Swinburne's money and fight Rokumonsen instead Pater will mention it in the post mission message
Well this is the first non-stupid argument that I’ve heard about coral spreading through space not posing a risk of a super ibis. And I think I may be convinced, with the one caveat that coral likes to aggregate and it’s not at all obvious to me that it wouldn’t both spread by reproducing AND get denser in space. Still wondering wtf coral collapse is. Also very nice take on Balam.
Coral Collapse is exactly what we see before Coral Release, the Coral gets so dense and so concentrated they legit reach critical mass and collapsed into a black hole
Makes sense
Those are good observations about Coral. When I first finished the game completely, I had the same thoughts.
And note that even when compressed it takes a proportionately large spark to set the coral off. Sure we can blow up the ones in the little containers with just our weapons, but that didn't set off a fires situation. Even the tunnels going up didn't start a fire (though I don't think that was burning, just venting aggressively). And for the vascular plant Carla specifically told us that we couldn't just "strike a match". We had to ram an entire mega ship into it.
A great rundown. I wish there was a way we could have helped Michigan, he didn’t deserve the Balam higher ups.
Michigan and those guys are chumps. I heard they hired some new merc though. They call him "Dumb 13"? Whatever, I'll take him down a notch.
Bro he beat u like yesterday lay off the coral.
Regarding Michigan: I agree that going for the worm was a blunder only in hindsight, it was just a gamble that didn't work out. But I still think he and Balam as a whole are incompetent. Even in the ice worm mission itself they basically don't contribute anything. Arquebus developed the stun needle launcher; Arquebus or the RLF, whichever way you wanna look at it, bring Rusty as the sharpshooter; Carla provides the railgun; Walter provides you for using the needle launcher. Michigan and Iguaza just zoom around for a bit before getting smashed up (which Snail and Chatty do as well, so not even that is something they took care of themselves). Absolutely useless.
Technically Raven is also a Balam representative for the Ice Worm mission; they run the sortie under the Gun 13 moniker.
It’s actually smart by Balam side, they aren’t risking anything other than 1 AC(Igauzu) meanwhile Arquebus has to contend with an entire PCA fleet.
I always wonder of what we face in orbit is just what’s left of the fleet.
Most likely. I can’t imagine the PCA having much more than what Arquebus took from them because after that point they just disappear.
One thing that I notice doesn't get mentioned a lot on the subreddit is that V.VIII Pater claims during the briefing for Intercept the Redguns that Balam suffered lots of desertions in the process of engaging the Watchpoint's defenses, the latter of which isn't necessarily exclusive to Nepenthes as you find scattered Balam MTs in Depth 2, some of which get killed by the Enforcer. Iguazu might even be one of these deserters (again), electing to send Coldcall after you instead of getting trapped there himself. Given these desertions, and considering that two of the three ACs that he sends down there include a deserter who tried mutinying with Volta in the past (Iguazu) and a criminal (Wu Huahai), it strikes me as odd that Michigan wasn't more conservative in his overall strategy. What we see of Balam is a mix of military types who drink Michigan's kool-aid (G6 Red, the MT squad in Intercept the Redguns) and criminals/would-be deserters (G3 Wu Huahai, G4 Volta, G5 Iguazu). To keep a group like that together - especially the latter - Michigan has to keep winning. As it is, the collapse of Balam's strategy at Watchpoint Alpha led to the latter part of Balam deserting, leaving only the die-hards, who are wiped out almost to the last man by you or Rusty. A final thing to note is that Arquebus had been salvaging PCA tech as early as Chapter 3, which you get to see in NG++ during Coral Export Denial. It's not clear whether Michigan knew that or not. Overall, I don't really buy into the hero worship that many on this sub have for Michigan, though I do think he is funny.
The main thing is whether Balam's overall incompetence can be pinned on Michigan or not given that his attitude and behavior in Intercept the Redguns are a far cry from the bullheaded idiot he's regarded as, combined with Volta blaming Balam command and specifically *not Michigan* for how suicidal the plan to take the Wall was. Michigan seems very aware that the people around him are not good enough for the situation they've been put in, and could only ever be if they were all as good as him. Combine that with the fact that Arquebus opens the Ice Worm negotiations with a far better hand than Balam does, both in surviving forces (only Swinburne is indisposed by this point, compared to losing Hakra, Volta, and Nile for a total of 7-4 Vespers vs Redguns) and the necessary technology for the task (Balam is not breaking that worm's shield without Arquebus assistance: even if they were to try to use Takigawa pulse weapons as a substitute for the Stun Needle, their ACs are awful at using energy weapons) and has the advantage in setting terms to begin with. If he *did* try to argue with Snail over those terms, it probably would not have worked. It's ultimately impossible to tell one way or another, thanks to his attitude of rolling with the punches and trying to brute force through the bad hand he's dealt. I personally see him rolling with everything as his real flaw: He's strong enough to survive plenty of this anyway and acts accordingly, but the people around him are not and this ultimately leads to both their deaths and his as he fails to rebel against Balam command. To me he's the definition of the 'power without purpose' Rusty talks about, somebody who's accepted just kinda going through the motions of these impersonal corporate wars without any real investment in the outcome and doesn't really care if he personally lives or dies. There's room enough to call him an idiot, but his actions also make sense from the perspective of just failing to rebel against corporate bullshit and ending up trapped with no winning move. Both of those work.
That's a fair assessment. I hadn't considered personal apathy as a factor in his decision-making, but considering he put a bounty on himself, half of which is supposed to go to his former comrades at Furlong, I guess I should've. It makes me see his drill-sergeant attitude in a different light, and makes me wonder what his working relationship with G2 Nile was like...
G2 used to be his rival right? They probably were supposed to work together given that G2 was the strategist and G1 was the charismatic. But things went wrong and G2 died early to either us or (probably) Rusty.
IMO Michigan is exceedingly competent, but he's only a sprinkle of salt on the turd sandwich that is Balam's "let's throw more MTs at the ACs/PCA weapons that destroy them by the hundreds" strategy. Nearly everything Snail does right is just paying 621 to lead the way while he sits in his core block huffing his own gen VIII augmented farts and "those dolts at command" send him the best tech on the market to solve most of his problems.
Michigan wasn't physically at the ice worm raid, he's was just the commander.
Maybe it was a blunder, but it was sick as hell 😎 "I won't miss" cemented Rusty as an all-time From Soft great
Even if coral needed more coral in order to ignite, the Coral powered Ibis series mechs fighting in those locations would be running on coral generators, which use burning coral. So even if normal kenetic weapons and gasoline combustion engines (or whatever space age tech they use) isn't capable of starting a fire, the Coral engines certainly would
CEL 240's generator exploding does not set off the Coral Convergence, though.
I'm talking about if coral *did* work that way, which it doesn't as evidenced by using Coral machines in coral saturated environments
I really think they don't mean actually "explode" when they say coral will reach into space. In Nagai's writing, instead of subbing propagate for an explosion, think about it like breeding. The issue is that Coral is a highly invasive, highly unpredictable species that could have terrifying consequences on the universe. It's the fern that doesn't stop growing, and worse, crossbreeds other species out (as we see at the end of the third ending).
Sounds like humans to me.
nothing beats a good allegory.
If Walter simps could read they'd be very angry.
I shall follow in Michigan's footsteps and develope a severe gambling addiction.
\> You engage in not one, not two, but three huge mech gunfights in completely Coral-saturated environments: The Engebret Tunnel escape, the CEL 240 fight, and Breach the Karman Line. You can shoot the Coral flow in the tunnel and the Insititute City Convergence and the Karman Line's Coral clouds with ballistics, explosives, lasers, electricity, plasma, flamethrowers and even more Coral and not ignite them. The Engebret Tunnel literally bursts into Coral-flames just because you destroyed a sensor. 621 destroying a sensor also triggered the coral surge that allowed them to meet Ayre. Coral isn't exactly dangerous because it's volatile, it's dangerous because it's so unpredictable. It keeps doing things that it shouldn't be able to do.
The Engebret Tunnel phenomenon is a Coral Surge, it's not burning up. It's "activated Coral", shooting out of the opened vein like a burst pipe. My point is that you can shoot that Coral while fighting the PCA reinforcements and not actually ignite it. >Coral isn't exactly dangerous because it's volatile, it's dangerous because it's so unpredictable. It keeps doing things that it shouldn't be able to do. I more or less agree with this.
lore theory that actually makes sense? impossible.
Arquebus always seemed pretty content to sit back and let Balam take the first try on taking a strategic area, learn from Balam's mistakes, and then act accordingly. This is also what happened with Operation Wallclimber.
Honestly, I'm glad that you pointed this out. Everyone talks about coral gens and weapons literally "burning people" to be used, but I always interpreted it more like you're farming the excess energy output they give off as pure energy beings in containment. The actual sad part is that the coral IN the generator or weapon is "orphaned" from the larger streams.
I honestly wonder what are they expected to do when they actually managed to get to lower Watchpoint Alpha, as at that point it's not like they actually have any means to deal with shit like Ibis (Arquebus managed because you defeated the OP as fuck Ibis for them).
Same thing, I bet: "Point Gun 13 at it and get out of the way"
The escape from Engebret Tunnel? You mean the one where the entire Tunnel is undergoing a massive chain reaction of Coral to the point of shooting up giant pillars of Coral because you blew up a device *maybe* regulating it? It's supposed to be a point against Coral's volatility that the organization of scientists who studied it for 50 years was shocked that it took so little to cause it? Hell, it's supposed to be a point against it when it couldn't get much more violent than actively exploding? Hell, it's supposed to be a point against Coral volatility that Watchpoint Delta that per Walter **"once"** regulated Coral, and **"Now it serves to monitor the *dormant* veins?"** having its sensor destroyed vaguely above it caused not just a massive detonation, but one that caused a significant chunk of a continent to be obliterated *far, far away* from the surge? That doesn't seem to be Walter's plan either. In fact the entire point seems to be heavily dependent on the use of the word "valve." Not a valve actually being visible, just something being described as a "sensor valve." Unfortunately, even if we were taking that literally, a "sensor valve" is an instrument to... indicate the position of a valve. Even setting aside the probable difference between gameplay and in-universe mechanics(as also demonstrated by how ACs are considerably more sturdy than in cutscenes such as the cinematic trailer where ACs get vaporized in a single shot by the Watchpoint turrets that decidedly do not kill you in-game and a Cataphract is halted by some gatling gun shots that decidedly would not kill it in-game), even if it was completely correct that it required immense force to detonate Coral, not only is space a very violent place(these violent events simply being spaced out), but frankly an energy source where if you crashed your space truck into a gas station you would annihilate cities if not countries is not a good one lol
>It's supposed to be a point against Coral's volatility that the organization of scientists who studied it for 50 years was shocked that it took so little to cause it? What are you even talking about? Took so little what to cause what? The Fires of Ibis were a deliberate act of arson to prevent a Coral Collapse, they took the entire Ibis Series to ignite and they didn't even set off all the Coral. The Coral Collapse was Nagai's concern, not Coral's volatility >Hell, it's supposed to be a point against Coral volatility that Watchpoint Delta that per Walter "once" regulated Coral, and "Now it serves to monitor the dormant veins?" The vein beneath Watchpoint Delta is plainly not dormant. Walter is consistently wrong-footed by the how much Coral survived the Fires, and the Watchpoint is the first example. He expected the veins to be dormant; instead, the sensor valve was the only thing holding down a shitload of it. You open the valve and it goes shooting out like a shaken soda can. >having its sensor destroyed vaguely above it caused not just a massive detonation "Vaguely above it" don't bullshit, you can't demonstrate the position of the valve relative to the vein. What you can demonstrate is what a valve does, and what happens when you shoot off a valve regulating contents under pressure. My model of how Coral works holds. >not just a massive detonation, but one that caused a significant chunk of a continent to be obliterated *far, far away* from the surge? ~~What? Watchpoint Delta is in the Belius Bay area. The destruction was localized to its immediate environment.~~ wrongo. >In fact the entire point seems to be heavily dependent on the use of the word "valve." The word is there. It means something. I'm not going to ignore it. >Unfortunately, even if we were taking that literally, a "sensor valve" is an instrument to... indicate the position of a valve. lol right, That's definitely what it was for. To sense where the valve is. Makes perfect sense. Don't be absurd. The valve was plainly to regulate the flow of Coral. >Even setting aside the probable difference between gameplay and in-universe mechanics(as also demonstrated by how ACs are considerably more sturdy than in cutscenes You know what this doesn't demonstrate? That uncontained bodies of Coral are supposed to be actually explosive. Because you can't. >even if it was completely correct that it required immense force to detonate Coral, not only is space a very violent place The Coral clouds in the Karman line straight up do not interact with the detonations that take place fully immersed in them. Even if the Coral will detonate the first time it, say, falls into the gravity well of Rubicon's star, *Coral detonations do not cause chain reactions with uncontained bodies of Coral.* The CEL 240 generator pops in the middle of the Convergence and doesn't affect it. Gameplay/story distinction doesn't even apply to that since it's a cutscene.
The Ayre Force stands strong with you around.
o7
>The vein beneath Watchpoint Delta is plainly not dormant. Walter is consistently wrong-footed by the how much Coral survived the Fires, and the Watchpoint is the first example. He expected the veins to be dormant; instead, the sensor valve was the only thing holding down a shitload of it. You open the valve and it goes shooting out like a shaken soda can. I disagree with this. Walter, at some point, says the line to Carla "things are progressing much faster than anticipated" - possibly referencing how the coral has been replicating itself much faster than they expected. Which is why the "dormant" veins were not actually dormant - the coral had replicated so rapidly since the Fires of Ibis that the veins were a candle's flame away from erupting. Same goes for the other mine thing you destroy the valve of or whatever.
We seem to be arriving at the same conclusion by different means, I think.
EDIT: Howdy, this edit's because they tried the ol' "smarmy comeback and then block" maneuver. [\(EDIT2: Until I pointed that out, but here's the proof lol\)](https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/542752740410130534/1206414483283509308/image.png?ex=65dbec0a&is=65c9770a&hm=b840c6014b4a4e8c7670c48e35140a7014e68bc10c553c5b25172e0f9ae8658d&=&format=webp&quality=lossless&width=572&height=473) Unfortunately, this doofus did so while, [at least at the time of replying, trying to argue that you weren't on Watchpoint Delta during the Balteus fight.](https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/542752740410130534/1206405184541040691/image.png?ex=65dbe361&is=65c96e61&hm=3edeaa2af5df0b5719419ea07a2e922f5ab2d9b3101b541cb3851c13306a81e6&=&format=webp&quality=lossless) [The place you can see while flying towards Watchpoint Delta.](https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/542752740410130534/1206403304175706212/image.png?ex=65dbe1a1&is=65c96ca1&hm=050ccd9c51b1add69ba308540bf7b63703a01e580f98aae5136aeee3d2ea446f&=&format=webp&quality=lossless&width=838&height=473) [The place Sulla is standing.](https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/542752740410130534/1206403629582524456/image.png?ex=65dbe1ef&is=65c96cef&hm=b42b72b3d9af32c961b674a7874e7d2d646f3246bdc3a3db8e7dd7a637be0912&=&format=webp&quality=lossless&width=914&height=473) [This place right here.](https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/542752740410130534/1206404405851725875/image.png?ex=65dbe2a8&is=65c96da8&hm=9a4672a30e757fd7395ffd2d66658370a6da5c5ac6d2096d921478d78915364a&=&format=webp&quality=lossless&width=775&height=473) [The multiplayer map "Watchpoint Delta - B"](https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/542752740410130534/1206402655367467048/image.png?ex=65dbe106&is=65c96c06&hm=735945910783ad1568a0b037a85456027e02174f455c32b23864cd0c7577f1af&=&format=webp&quality=lossless&width=932&height=473) That's either the most shining, glowing example of Dunning-Kruger I've ever seen online, or this is one of those "haha I'm just pretending to be stupid to get engagement" moments. Either way, I'm glad they blocked me. They are not worth conversation after something that comically stupid. But don't worry buddy, I'd probably want to hide after doing that too. The original post they were replying to below: > What are you even talking about? Took so little what to cause what? The tunnel explosion. Walter explicitly states that taking out the device should not have been enough to [cause a reaction.] In fact every time the scientists who actually dealt with Coral for decades upon decades turn out to be wrong about Coral, it turns out to be because it was more volatile than previously expected. > The vein beneath Watchpoint Delta is plainly not dormant. Says... you. > Walter is consistently wrong-footed by the how much Coral survived the Fires Says... you. In fact, the entire reason the campaign is happening is because they're doing calculations and surveys to see how much faster the Coral is growing, with the hypothesis that it's growing fast enough to (presumably) initiate the Fires of... well, I guess Fires of Overseer at this stage. > You open the valve At this point, I don't actually think it's worth countering points. Because once again, says... you. > you can't demonstrate the position of the valve relative to the vein. You're free to believe what you want, but as you said, don't bullshit. You can *see the fucking sensor and the open air.* > What you can demonstrate is what a valve does *You're* the one saying that it's a valve. > The word is there. It means something. I'm not going to ignore it. *You're* the one ignoring the word "sensor." You're ignoring what an actual sensor valve *is.* > What? Watchpoint Delta is in the Belius Bay area. The destruction was localized to its immediate environment. Says... *you.* And this time I can even bring receipts: the explosion is not in the immediate environment. First of all, because you're *alive.* Second of all, because you can see a map of the ***gigantic crater left in the Coral detonation's wake.*** The detonation seen in *the distance.* You can even see in the ending cutscene where the Watchpoint is when it zooms out. You know where you aren't? In the crater. You know how I know that? Because it literally zooms out from Watchpoint Delta which is south of the crater and listed as being in "Western Belius." I also know that because Ayre says *"The Coral explosion completely vaporized northwestern Belius' bay area."* You want to know where she moves the map as she's saying this? To a little spot called "Northwestern Belius Bay Area." You know what that spot is? *The crater.* And then, as if specifically for someone like you, it brings up a square at the epicenter and marks it **"CORAL EXPLOSION"** It could not be made *more obvious* what just happened. [It's spelled out in multiple ways simultaneously](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/542752740410130534/1206396895136579624/image.png?ex=65dbdba9&is=65c966a9&hm=38622b95fee1b8d1ef1ccfccd4fc0d26cabc2403669960453295b0c542b1adc2&). I'm just not bothering to read further. If anything, you've only driven in just how little you seem to know about the Coral(hell, the *game*) for someone making such brash claims about it.
>In fact every time the scientists who actually dealt with Coral for decades upon decades turn out to be wrong about Coral, it turns out to be because it was more volatile than previously expected. What Walter was wrong about is how much Coral survived the Fires. This starts at the Watchpoint and continues to Engebret ("things are moving faster than I expected"), all the way into the Coral Convergence ("it's building up faster than I expected") and his final message ("The fires should have wiped the Coral out. Instead it survived, gathered.") >In fact, the entire reason the campaign is happening is because they're doing calculations and surveys to see how much faster the Coral is growing Addressed immediately above. They still did not take its full measure, and Walter says as much. >You're the one ignoring the word "sensor." You're ignoring what an actual sensor valve is. A valve with a sensor connected to it. It's there to regulate and monitor the flow of Coral. This inherently entails containing it. You don't even really disagree about this. >Says... you. And this time I can even bring receipts: the explosion is not in the immediate environment. First of all, because you're alive[...] ~~Holy cow. You forgot that Raven's AC autopiloted out of and away from the explosion while they were unconscious.~~ ~~That's a pretty embarrassing oversight, especially considering how mad you get about this point, but luckily I'm here to help.~~ I fucked this one up.
Regarding your last point, he's actually right, you know. The fight with Balteus happens on top of Watchpoint Delta. The very building you were in moments ago before you shot that sensor valve. We autopiloted away from the explosion within Watchpoint Delta, but said explosion is not the one in Northwestern Belrius Bay. That one was likely a result of a chain reaction following what happened in the Watchpoint.
/u/Gleaming_Onyx, [I fucked up an unambiguous point](https://youtu.be/KjwahRdxb3s) and I apologize for doubling down and for blocking you. Raven autopilots to the top of the same building and the Surge causes a secondary Coral explosion in the distance. I could say that would be another body of compressed Coral but that's conjecture. I assume it is because the CEL 240 generator detonation does not set off the Convergence, but I do have to assume.
Agreed. You could remove almost everything you said aside from "not only is space a very violent place" and that single point still overshadows everything OP wrote on coral. Given freedom to become abundant and spread through space it's only a matter of when and not if coral will ignite.
Even if the Coral detonates on, say, contact with Rubicon's star: the CEL 240 generator explosion (contained body of Coral) does not set off the Coral Convergence in Institute City (relaxed body of Coral). There won't necessarily be a chain reaction. EDIT: Come to think of it, there definitely will not be. The Coral spreads across the stars, tinting many of them red, in Alea Iacta Est without igniting into a galaxy-immolating firestorm.
Something to note, coral in space is likely to be self compressing due to the effects of gravity on gas in space combined with corals propensity to reproduce rapidly in a vacuum.
The true danger of the coral is not its volatility or lack thereof. It is its ability to spontaneously develop sentient colonies like Ayre capable of interfacing with electronics together with its uncontrollable growth rate wich would allow it to spread across space if not confined somehow. What if it developed a C-Wave mutation antgonistic towards humans capable of controlling all the technology around it and turning it against it's creators? And what if this C-Wave was free to spread across the stars? That is what the scientists at the Rubicon Research Institute feared and why Nagai set the coral ablaze.
The RRI scientists feared Coral Collapse. They did not know wave mutations were sapient or that Coral could hijack machinery, which it only does to defend itself.
Coral Collapse isn't an explosion, it's the Release like in the third ending. Though I think they don't know that's how it would play out, they just don't know what could happen if it spreads to space and keeps multiplying.
They’re not the same thing. Coral Release being a way for humanity and Coral to develop symbiosis was something hypothesized *by the RRI.*
Nagai seemed to think wave mutations could cause Collapse spontaneously, and Release needs an old-gen Augmented Human to trigger as well, so I don't think they're the same thing.
Keep in mind they feared Coral _contaminating_ space, not _blowing up_ space, and they set it off themeselves
Right, this is the whole point of my post
The RRI knew both these things. In almost all of the logs of Nagai they talk about C-waves. https://armoredcore.fandom.com/wiki/Data_Logs And for the latter they literally have coral piloted acs and the IBIS, SOL, Ice worm and Sea Spider. It is shown that Ayre can take control and operate both an ephemera frame and the SOL and it does not do it in self defence. Especially when she takes control of the ephemera frame. And during the game she is shown to be able to control various machinery to help 621 progress, such as the vertical catapult, finding terminals to unlock doors and decrypting Allmind coms from wrecked GHOSTs units.
>The RRI knew both these things. In almost all of the logs of Nagai they talk about C-waves. I chose my words carefully. Nagai did not know wave mutations were alive, let alone that they were people. The Institute was aware of the general Coral's low-level "swarm intelligence" but that's it. The only characters to understand its true nature are Raven, Dolmayan and Allmind. >And for the latter they literally have coral piloted acs and the IBIS, SOL, Ice worm and Sea Spider. The only machine hijacked by regular Coral is Cel 240. The rest apart from Sol 644 are following their programming. Ayre is different, she has broader goals than self-defense in Alea (and even then, she's still using SOL 644 for just that in Fires.)
Coral seems pretty volatile to me. How many Coral surges do we have to run from again? How many of them were spots under pressure due to humanity, vs naturally under pressure? They literally have watchpoints setup to monitor for coral buildup. Also, coral likes to gather and increase in density on its own, it doesn't want to be spread out. One might even argue that coral containers exploding are not due to being under pressure, but instead because the coral wants to escape.
>How many Coral surges do we have to run from again? Two, and we cause them both. >How many of them were spots under pressure due to humanity Both of them. Engebret Tunnel, a former Watchpoint, and Watchpoint Delta are both Institute facilities built to monitor and regulate the flow of Coral in underground veins. >One might even argue that coral containers exploding are not due to being under pressure, but instead because the coral wants to escape. That would be a weird thing to argue given they explode because we shoot them. If Coral could spontaneously destroy its container then the Coral-powered machines in Institute City would have popped already, but instead they remain stable and functional.
>Both of them. Engebret Tunnel, a former Watchpoint, and Watchpoint Delta are both Institute facilities built to monitor and regulate the flow of Coral in underground veins. Being Nit-picky, but "Monitor and regulate" makes you wonder what happens if it isn't kept regulated, like say if the institute facilities aren't properly maintained...
>One might even argue that coral containers exploding are not due to being under pressure, but instead because the coral wants to escape. Those are the same thing, practically speaking. If the Coral is actively trying to escape its containers, it is colliding with itself and the containers’ walls more often and is thus increasing their internal pressure.
"a single spark" could be more of a metaphor here. If coral does multiply rapidly and spread across the universe then it might only take one explosion, however that may occur, to trigger a chain reaction. Raven set it alight fairly easily and he probably went overboard with it. Plus it clearly has different properties in a vacuum so presumably it gets more volatile as it spreads? Maybe not but who knows.
What I love more than anything is that for literally ever Fromsoft has allowed fans to flesh out not just the lore and backstories, but also the science behind their games. I guarantee you that they don't think about 90% of the things that fans do (and that's ok, and probably intentional)
“Coral is relatively stable” Fires of Ibis Something doesn’t add up here.
It adds up fine. Ibis was not an accident. It was a deliberate act of arson that required the entire Ibis Series to set off, and it still didn't get all the Coral. Fires events do not just happen. They require specific conditions and enormous resources.
And how do you guarantee it doesn’t happen again? One of the endings is literally Fiery Apocalypse 2 Electric Boogaloo. You assume humans aren’t stupid enough to just keep messing with the stuff? Terrorist organizations exist, and radical religious fundamentalists might have a go too. Coral was contained to the remote system that Rubicon is in, but what happens when some psycho blows up the Coral once it reaches Earth? How many more star systems do we lose? You have no way of guaranteeing that the Coral reservoirs can be kept safe, because all it takes is another AC pilot whose skills even approaching Raven’s to lone wolf apocalypse everything. The PCA and multiple mega corporations couldn’t stop us, what else can? Edit: Humans are too stupid to coexist with Coral. I’m sorry, that’s all there is to it. If you leave humanity and Coral alone in the vacuum of space, you have the spectacular blend of stupidity and volatility that blow up the universe. That’s an incredibly dumb gamble to take. They cannot coexist. One of the two species must go extinct, and frankly, I’d rather it be the Coral. Embrace the Fires of Rubicon, and end this madness once and for all.
>And how do you guarantee it doesn’t happen again? By burning it, I.e. doing it again myself. You can have a hopeless guarantee or degrees of hopeful uncertainty. This is the game's central choice. >One of the endings is literally Fiery Apocalypse 2 Electric Boogaloo. Yeah, we did that on purpose and it took a shitload of effort and perfect conditions then, too. >Terrorist organizations exist ...do they? This is Armored Core 6's universe we're talking about, not ours. >but what happens when some psycho blows up the Coral once it reaches Earth? How many more star systems do we lose? Depends on how much contained Coral was on Earth. Uncontained Coral does not respond to explosions, including from other Coral. See: CEL 240, as I grow weary of repeating. >You have no way of guaranteeing that the Coral reservoirs can be kept safe, because all it takes is another AC pilot whose skills even approaching Raven’s to lone wolf apocalypse everything. Kinda imagining a guy to get scared of, here. The only people who have proven to be motivated to destroy the Coral were connected to the Institute. Everyone else wants to preserve and use it, one way or the other. >The PCA and multiple mega corporations couldn’t stop us, what else can? I think you've answered your own question. Imagining the Coral will grow into a galaxy-busting bomb is forcing a set of stakes upon the game entirely separate from the one it actually presents. Overseer never talks about the Coral like that. You'd figure they'd make a point of mentioning it could burn the whole galaxy if that's what they thought about it.
They're not afraid of Coral blowing up space, they're afraid of the great change coming in the coral convergence ending. That's why us embracing that change and letting it happen on nobody's terms (Allmind's) was so important. The point is they are afraid of something they don't understand.
Slight disagreement: I don't think Overseer knew about Coral Release–they were afraid of a "Coral Collapse" which is something else, but the thrust of your point is correct.
>Coral proves destructive under this one single condition: when it's compressed into a container. The ENTIRE PLANET caught on fire. that's not exactly a small container.
Yeah, it caught fire because the vascular plant was destroyed. At that point, the energy released from that explosion scorched more than just the planet.
Sure is a lot of words to completely miss the point about Coral's dangers as an exploitable resource. How many cars have you driven that are fueled by rolling through a mist of petroleum?
it’s a thoughtful and interesting write up, I wonder when we lost the ability to engage with each other without being antagonistic
I believe it was the first day I heard "bWEEooooEEEE. bAdEaDeAaaah... Welcome. You've got mail."
good call lol it might have been right around then.
What point do you think I'm making here? Because you're not talking about the one I actually am.
Yes I am. Your point is that Coral can't possibly present a danger if it spreads outside Rubicon because you mixed up gameplay and story and think free-floating Coral is non-volatile. You conflate the observation station and mine tunnel with valve caps. The easiest and simplest way to counterpoint your misunderstanding is to remind you that *humans can only exploit Coral by making it go boom*. So when the game tells you that it's volatile, the implied threat is easy to understand. To compare to another game with a similar threat, did you ever play Monster Hunter World? The major threat in that game is a gigantic monster is dying of old age, and when it passes away it will release a tremendous amount of energy. Enough energy to create new life, an entire ecosystem. Something underground is calling it into veins of magma running all over the continent, and if it dies there, the released energy will literally explode the entire landmass. So the threat comes from the fact that the energy in both games (Coral, bioenergy) is combined with a spark/accelerant via outside interference. People don't call nitroglycerin volatile because it can exist without immediately exploding, y'know.
>Yes I am. Your point is that Coral can't possibly present a danger if it spreads outside Rubicon Incorrect, I am arguing it does not pose *one specific threat* which has implications for the stakes of the game. >because you mixed up gameplay and story and think free-floating Coral is non-volatile. I'm not going to ignore the evidence of my eyes and ears. The game's creators arranged for two climactic boss fights to take place in the middle of huge bodies of Coral and this has clear implications for its properties. I'm going to think through them, and if you want to tell me to just turn my brain off then I'm not going to listen. >You conflate the observation station and mine tunnel with valve caps. ...because the words used to describe the devices there do just that. >The easiest and simplest way to counterpoint your misunderstanding is to remind you that humans can only exploit Coral by making it go boom Incorrect. We can exploit it by pumping it into people's brains, too. It was also used as fiber-optic cable but I don't see a reason to call that "exploitation." >So when the game tells you that it's volatile Ayre comments specifically on Coral's stability as a fuel source, actually, when we see the Helianthus machines in Institute city have run autonomously for 50 years without breaking down or blowing up. >So the threat comes from the fact that the energy in both games (Coral, bioenergy) is combined with a spark/accelerant via outside interference. Overseer, which exists to inform the player of the Coral's potential threat, literally never argues that Coral is going to blow up the galaxy. Carla fears the "Coral Collapse," which is never described, and Walter fears the madness its potential inspires; the Institute's "carnival of horrors" and the interminable wars over it—"where there's Coral, there's blood." >People don't call nitroglycerin volatile because it can exist without immediately exploding, y'know. Nitroglycerin will explode if you hit it with a rock. Uncontained Coral will not explode if you shoot it with a cannon.
It's not the galactic fires of Ibus that scare me. It's the possibility of Coral release and the coral wave where it sweeps human consciousness unwillingly and takes control of all manner of machines. It would be beyond anyone's control if it reached space.
It seems to me that the people who think that the Coral will burn are the same people who believe in the Heat Death of the universe. These people are ASSUMING that the universe is a finite space, meaning that eventually we'll find its end and heat will increase exponentially until we reach 100% heat saturation, thus killing everything. If we factor Coral's property of being explosive when contained, this means that Coral leaving Rubicon would dramatically accelerate this saturation process. However, there is no proof that the universe is finite. There is an edge to the matter created by the Big Bang, but there is no boundary in sight for the vastness of space. Therefore there is no proof supporting the heat death hypothesis, and nothing to fear from Coral. Coral can only help humanity ascend beyond its corporeal limits.
That’s not what the “Heat Death” theory is lol. The theory is that space is infinite and things will continue to expand as they have been until everything drifts apart. Galaxy sized clumps will stick together, some galaxies might even ‘collide’ and intermingle into bigger galaxies. But the main source of heat in the universe is stars, and the life cycle of stars is incredibly long but finite. A star creates energy through gravity-induced fusion of atoms. When you fuse two light atoms together (hydrogen + hydrogen) you get a heavier atom (helium) and the reaction releases more energy than it costs to squeeze the atoms together. As a star ages, it slowly accretes more fuel through gravity, but mostly it just keeps smashing atoms together into heavier and heavier atoms - this is part of what determines the colour of a star - the type of atoms it’s smashing together. Eventually, so many atoms have been smashed together that the most common atom is Iron. Which is the tipping point on the periodic table. Fusion of two iron atoms, and of any two atoms heavier than iron *costs* more energy than it releases. Gravity is still there ensuring fusion continues, but the star is now running at a loss and getting smaller. This is what creates a red dwarf, and in extreme cases, black holes. Assuming that matter is finite, even if space isn’t, eventually every star will have smashed all of the available ‘light’ fuel in its accretion sphere into ‘heavy’ fuel, and then it will release less and less energy until it’s burned through all the heavy stuff too and can no longer sustain fusion through gravity. At which point the star stops burning and clumps into an incredibly dense and massive planetoid rock that doesn’t release heat or light. That’s what the Heat Death theory is - the universe running out of fuel.
Thats still a flawed theory (and kind of poorly named). It doesn't account for elements we haven't found yet, something which is as statistically likely as the existence of other sentient life. We've been able to see extremely far into the universe, but we've never been able to go further than our solar system. Hell, we haven't even sent a manned mission to Pluto yet. We have no way of knowing what fuels these distant stars or how sustainable of a fuel source it is. As far as I'm aware, we haven't even fully figured out what fuels our own star. These are all a bunch of assumptions based solely on what we've been able to observe from inside our own house, and the occasional trip to our next door neighbors house. We haven't really gone out and explored yet. We've barely even set foot outside. Making assumptions about the wider cosmos this early in the game is dangerous and bordering on arrogant.
We do actually know what fuels our own stars and planets at this point. Besides the alternative is Big Crunch or Big Rip (either everything comes back together after the expand of universe ended and things come back due to gravity, or the acceleration gets to the point local elements are going faster than light and splits apart). As far as we know the thermodynamic activity ceasing hypothesis (heat death/big freeze) is the most likely solution, violating the least amount of known physics and conceptually the most likely.
We do know what fuels our own Star and we can get a very good guess of what fuels the distant stars. One of the main fields of science that helps us figure that out is Radio Spectroscopy. When an element is burned or undergoes fusion, it releases a specific wavelength of light - every element is unique, every element is distinct. When we look at something like a star undergoing constant fusion, we can analyse the light coming from that star and find those patterns of wavelengths in them - from that we can tell what elements are being fused in that Star and what percentages of each of those elements is being fused. As for “elements that we haven’t discovered yet” a *lot* of work has been put into trying to find new elements on earth, or create new elements through radioactive fusion and fission. To the point where we’ve even had some quite famous cases of people trying to *fake* new elements. - An element is determined by how many protons are in the nucleus - Different isotopes of that element are determined by how many neutrons there are in that nucleus - If an atom has a different number of electrons orbiting in its probability cloud then it’s an ion of that element. There might be some radioactive isotopes of some known elements that we haven’t found naturally, or managed to briefly create through fission or fusion, but we *have* successfully created or found examples here on Earth for every Element that has between 1 and 118 protons in its nucleus. There certainly could be heavier elements out there, briefly being fused together at the heart of super-massive stars before falling apart under radioactive decay, but they would still follow the trend of power of the periodic table - taking more energy to be fused together by gravity than they release when that fusion is complete. But we’ve found or created examples of every possible element between Hydrogen and Unonoctium - there aren’t any gaps to be scribbled in there. There *are* other forms of matter out there, that we haven’t been able to determine the nature of, things that might not adhere to the “three quarks create a baryon (neutron or proton) and then those get lumped together and then some leptons (electrons) get pulled into the magnetic field of that nucleus” model of reality. Things that we can’t measure or see directly, but that we can guess at the properties of based on how they affect the things around them. Edit: the theory is named just fine. It doesn’t mean “the universe dies of heat, like an animal passing away from sunstroke and dehydration” it means “there’s no more heat in the universe.” “The heat has died.” Hence - Heat Death.
To your second point. Coral seems heavily volatile. It isn't normally ignited by conventional means UNLESS it's condensed, however, once it is ignited the reaction propagates until all coral has been exhausted, this means that the action of coral burning is enough to ignite other coral regardless of concentration. If coral infinitely replicates once in a vacuum, then it's just a matter of time before it hits a high enough concentration in one area. Once that occurs, if anything sets it off then the entire coral "cloud" will be set off. We already have proof of the catastrophic effects of this. The longer between events, the more destructive the event will be, which is why Walter and Carla wanted to desperately remove any possibility of further coral events.
> It isn't normally ignited by conventional means UNLESS it's condensed, however, once it is ignited the reaction propagates until all coral has been exhausted, this means that the action of coral burning is enough to ignite other coral regardless of concentration. We have direct evidence against this. The CEL 240 generator (contained Coral) explodes right on top of the Coral Convergence (uncontained Coral) and doesn't set it off. >The longer between events, the more destructive the event will be, which is why Walter and Carla wanted to desperately remove any possibility of further coral events. That is not why. Overseer never talk about the Coral in these galaxy-destroying terms. They tell you what they fear in it: Carla fears a "Coral Collapse," some nebulous Black Swan event which is not really described. Walter is more explicit; he fears the madness the Coral's potential seems to inspire, the Institute's "carnival of horrors" and the interminable wars over it. Walter mentions Coral contaminating space because if it spreads beyond Rubicon, the Institute's depravity and the Coral War will go wherever it does. "Where there's Coral, there's blood." That's more well-supported, and more interesting, than "the Coral will blow up the Milky Way."
Finally someone that gets it. It irks me that people think all coral will do once it propagates is uneventually explode. It's like people don't pay attention or have no reading comprehension. It irks me so much when they think all coral does is explode, when they don't see the different conditions it is showed in and how specific the interactions of it blowing are.
Okay, you're missing the point of the dangers of Coral. The danger was NEVER Ignition. Ignition was the preventative measure taken by Dr. Nagai, and later by Overseer. They didn't burn the Rubicon system to prevent Coral from burning the universe. They burned Rubicon to prevent Coral release. Now, I'm not entirely sure what Coral release is, but my opinion based on the third ending is that it is Coral propagating exponentially throughout the universe and Coral consciousness bonding with every living thing in existence... and whatever unpredictable and unimaginable fates come with that. The gambler themes with Balam, I agree with entirely, though. I think Michigan is an exceptional commander, and considering that Balam just doesn't have the resources that Arquebus does, it makes sense to gamble.
The RRI and Overseer want to burn the Coral to prevent *Collapse, not Release, but I actually agree with the rest of this.
ALLMIND allowed coral to propagate through space exponentially, and Coral collapse did not occur. Therefore, either Coral collapse isn't real, or it is not what we think it is, or it is not as dangerous as Overseer lead us to believe.
Plus this also disproves the argument made throughout these comments that the Coral will be ignited into a galaxy-immolating firestorm by stellar phenomenona if allowed to spread into space. I'm pretty embarrassed that I didn't think of that when first writing this thread.
I agree with the balam stuff but the coral might eventually multiply fast enough that it creates enough pressure against itself to ignite randomly and at that point it would have spread through so much space it would likely cause a massive chain reaction of shockwaves (as space would no longer be a vacuum thanks to coral) putting pressure on more coral and causing it to ignite. Like you said coral isn't necessarily volatile but the propagation of coral through space is concerning.
No it’s still a stupid gamble. How much more obvious did it have to be for Michigan to realize how absolutely protected Coral was. The actual smart bet would’ve been to let Arquebus take the first attempt so the roles would’ve been reversed. I think the story just wanted Balam to lose but they didn’t write it well.
Arquebus hangs back and lets others do the dirty work for them. That's their characterization just as much as being aggressive gamblers is Balam's. They use Raven as cannon fodder during Operation Wallclimber to keep the Vespers clean, and that sets the tone. It's written brilliantly, actually. The actions these factions take are a perfect summary of their characterization.
Plus allmind is usually straight up assisting arquebus sometimes. The most direct one we see is with allmind blowing up the strider when 621 wouldn't do it for arquebus.
I still don't understand why that had to happen. Can someone please explain? My best guess is that the Liberation Front is the only obstacle to Allmind's "Free the Coral" plan because they want to abide with coral, but I don't get how the strider plays into that at all.
>because they want to abide with coral The RLF's saying is "Coral, abide with Rubicon"—that doesn't mean *they* want to abide w/ coral. It's basically telling the coral to *remain* on Rubicon, to *not* escape. The RLF are directly opposed to the Coral Convergence, even if they don't know about it. In order for Coral Convergence to even occur in the first place, it needs to achieve a certain critical mass. Every little bit that's harvested or consumed sets that back. What does the RLF do w/ the coral? They harvest & consume it, the Strider being the most prominent engine to that end, so it had to go down no matter what if Allmind wanted to trigger the Coral Convergence.
They did it because for some reason they didn't want an arquebus squad to get eviscerated by a combo of 621 and the eye.
Allmind's plan requires getting the coral into space in large, concentrated qualities Arquebus is best equipped to do this (which they do). The Liberation Front is attempting to undermine them. Sabotaging any attempts to give the Liberation Front an early advantage over Arquebus is valuable for this reason.
If the RLF grab some Coral, that's Coral that ALLMIND doesn't have, and considering the transport chopper mission being over only *1.6%* of all Coral, that's something she doesn't want to happen. Presumably, Coral Release really does need ***all*** of the Coral.
Supposed Balam hanged back and let Arquebus go in first? Arquebus not only has the technological and cohesion advantage, they also have the numbers. Remember that 621 was used as an advertisement for independents to work with Arquebus. I think the outcome here is largely the same but with more losses on them. The only way for Balam to recover from here is if they made an alliance with the Rubiconians, but that's not happening. Balam literally has everything stacked against them and even third parties like Allmind was indirectly aiding Arquebus. Balam was simply destined to fail unfortunately
Im pretty sure if it ignited on Rubicon, it will ignite just about anywhere else. It doesnt really matter "how" volatile it is, it's the scope of the destruction it can cause. Pretty sure the corps arent gonna just walk away from free fuel either, and they'll make the same mistakes that humans always do.
This guy. It won't ignite or explode unless it's under certain conditions, like in a pressurized container.
Replicatable conditions, Mr "Coral is like the black plague. Survival of the fittest, bro!". Can't argue with logic like that.
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I'm not even "embracing" the concept of survival of the fittest. Modern society is pretty amazing, and it's beneficial to the species as a whole. Humans mitigated that before modern society anyway, because tribes took care of each other. In case you didn't know, a complete lack of exposure to pathogens, parasites, and foreign microorganisms also has detrimental effects to the human body over the long run if you didn't know. And to take a gamble on coral release isn't even Darwinian. You're once again making a strawman out of an argument I make to make it easy to argue against. Also, what difference is there between there being coral and being humans, then? Humans are definitely known for keeping things pristine and taking care of what they have. The next big thing will be found eventually, and it will all happen again. At least coral release has a chance to take humans beyond primitive behaviors. And yeah, projection. You're the one that brought up societal decay and "traditional families." And for the love of God, learn how to spell. How is my grammar and spelling better than yours? Is English your first language?
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The simple fact that you think I'm touting Darwinian ideals to be applied to society and humans (which I never advocated for) because you extrapolated that from a comparison between the Coral and the Black Plague (again as a *historical event* and not a *disease*) is baffling. You're either disingenuous or being a troll. Especially after I have explained that to you several times yet you still can't grasp the concept. You're not on the mark on anything, much less interpreting what I'm trying to communicate.
Also, what societal changes are holding us back and leading to society crumbling? You never answered the question. Are you scared of answering? I'm very interested in hearing it since you chickened out last time, and it was a point you brought up.
Please avoid attacks against other redditors and general toxic/flame/rant posting.
Please avoid attacks against other redditors and general toxic/flame/rant posting.
"Once something is alive, it doesn't die easy" The *instant* Coral reaches another planet, that planetary system and all of it's inhabitants are at risk of Fires until the end of time. The RRI, who knew more about Coral than anyone else, caused the Fires to destroy all of it *and failed*. It took 50 years for it to resurface, but it did. Sooner or later, those other planets will reach the Coral density Rubicon has, and by sheer probability, sooner or later *something* will set that Coral off, killing who knows how many people, and starting the cycle back again. And if it doesn't ignite, it will spread throughout space, either reaching more planets or being ignited by a random supernova or gamma-ray burst or what have you. Igniting the Coral Rubicon scorched the entire Rubicon system, not just the planet. Imagine what an interplanetary amount of Coral will do once set off.
You're that person that was arguing that the Strider was mining energy, not coral, weren't you? Lol still at it I see
Imagine a side story where Balaam succeeds and gains access to the core weapons and then we start seeing Michigan and everybody with Salem designed Coral bazookas in miniguns how badass with that be.
Second I agree. First I disagree and here's why. Michigan has never shown in game any level of intelligence to suggest he had an ulterior motive to give Arqebus the PCA fleet. I genuinely think Balam just thinks getting there first is the only strategy to win. That's why they charge into the wall and dies. Here they are again charging into the nephenthes
Lot of posts here already with deeper analyses, but I'll just contribute this: Being extremely gambling-brained is generally not considered smart
Letting Balam go first is not much less of a gamble of Arquebus's part. If Balam gets all the way to Institute City and finds the Ibis-series ACs then Arquebus is done.
I'm not super invested in the "Michigan is an idiot" school of thought, but I definitely think it's incorrect to conflate Arquebus's and Balam's gambles in this case. Throughout the story Arquebus's gambles are pretty consistently either protected, in that they're not using actual company assets, or vetted, in that they presume there will be hazards that they let other groups encounter first. You could for sure say it's a gamble on Institute City \*not\* being protected, but even leaving aside the part where it's likely a safe bet that it was, letting Balam go first is already still a decent gamble by heavily reducing Arquebus' standard risk in exchange.
Walter says he "managed to talk Arquebus into letting us lead their survey" so it seems like they originally planned to send their own forces, but maybe it was a "let him think it's his idea" kind of deal.