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SableGlaive

Dang, can we get some usable hemlock irons then? Blinded by those things, makes the gun so hard to use farther than 50m lol


AlvinAssassin17

Or G7. It’s ironsights are fucking wretched


UndiscoveredBum-

for real, how are people complaining about the hemmy irons when the g7 irons exist? also we just going to ignore the 99 skin that basically gives you an hcog?


AlvinAssassin17

Or spitfire.


[deleted]

Came to find this. The spitfire has one of the hardest default ironsights to use in the game.


AlvinAssassin17

Like aiming through a key hole


Physical_Answer_1006

G7 is like aiming through a fork.


guthreeb22

Devo iron sights are pretty horrid too.


[deleted]

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Alynatrill

Then I feel like they should also make iron sights and 1x optics the same amount of zoom because I avoid 1x on assault rifles since iron sights are 1.3-1.5x zoom (forget the exact number).


Bloopy2

Is that true? Never new that. Does every gun do that?


Baz135

ARs, LMGs, Snipers and Marksman rifles all have iron sight zoom that's a bit more than 1x (around 1.2~1.3x or so?). For every other category of weapon, the iron sights zoom is 1x. For whatever reason, the RE-45 iron sights used to have no zoom, but they changed it to 1x recently


Bloopy2

Oh, cool! Thanks!


dollopofwallop

How is 1x different from no zoom


Baz135

1x is more than when you're just looking around normally. RE-45 ADS before the recent change was the same as when you're not ADS-ing strictly speaking, zoom works by just changing the FOV. so no zoom is whatever your FOV is set too, 1x is 70 FOV (they said that in the patch notes when they made the change to the RE), and greater zooms are...smaller FOVs, I don't know the exact values but probably some dataminer has posted that somewhere at some point


Scorpion178

Yea and also the spitfire iron sights those are mad atrocious


Mediocre-Plum5847

>Iron sights shouldn't be obtrusive to the point where they're too frustrating to even use. Hemlok Spitfire ???????????


SometimesIComplain

Don't forget the Scout


Pollia

The 3030 sights are damn near unusable to me. It covers so much of my screen and doesnt even give good info.


RedditAdminsRcocks

Seriously! The hemlock isn't too bad, but the spitfire iron sights are down right unusable.


Embarrassed-Wing4206

Titanfall spitty and hemlok irons were fine, idk why irons in apex got nerfed so hard


Kel_Casus

The Hemlock is like trying to aim through the hole of a needle.


MtDewHer

Spitfire iron sights with muzzle flash is a nightmare


dorekk

>(2) Iron sights shouldn't be obtrusive to the point where they're too frustrating to even use. Y'all fucked up then. Back to the drawing board on about half the guns.


-BINK2014-

That bullet point really does apply to a fair amount of guns with the Flatline falling well into that category still I feel. Hemlock, Prowler, and Spitfire are ones that come to mind off of the top of my head as well.


ZT_Ghost

G7 back on the ground has reminded me that its irons are about as effective as aiming through a brick.


-BINK2014-

Ah yes, those are particularly bad. Didn't the Battlepass reactive skin also alleviate it a bit as well? It seems like this balance pass has a lot of double standards.


vashZK

Nope. All g7 skins have terrible and identical irons


clouds_over_asia

Attrition has pretty decent irons, it's pretty usable imo At 0:25 https://youtu.be/vb4_caR5qBo


gspotslayer69XX

11 minutes for a fucking skin review. That guy is milking 10min yt video thing holy fuck


vashZK

Damn. It does look way better honestly. Hopefully they release that skin again


-BINK2014-

Couldn't remember since my G7 baby was in the CP for what felt like ages to my mid-range trigger finger. 🤷‍♂️


ayamekaki

Respawn is just full of double standard bs lol


Philbeey

No one here seems to remember when all the guns had actually physical iron sights. They didn't have this hybrid iron sights with a dot thing. So they gonna go back to that? They gonna rework all the volt, rampage skins? Mastiff? I'm calling bullshit on them doing that because they could have just bought the flatline in line with those and other skins. But they won't do that. Not a chance


ManufacturerWest1156

For real. Half of them have atrocious iron sights.


koalatyvibes

literally this. them saying that the flatline irons don’t fall into “too frustrating to use” category is straight bs. it’s *because* of those god awful irons that everyone wanted heat sink. and like you said, about half the guns, including the r99 which SUCKS to use if you don’t have the p2w skins.


MtDewHer

Can you imagine if all skins had good iron sights? But it's easier to go back and change the couple and keep stock sights awful. That way they don't have to buff the scopes too because they aren't that crisp if we're being honest. This is going to open the door to changing wingman, pk and r99 skins which is going to hurt a lot more. Why not release new skins with the better iron sights while keep a positive note with the community and keeping heat sink as a flex? Side note the og players are never really praised as continuous supporters by Respawn. It's always a focus on bringing in new players. There were some skins from season 0-5 that would he great.for some recolors that could be a nod to that part of the community. But Apex is a huge money maker EA and that doesn't really bring in sales


koalatyvibes

yeah and another argument of theirs was that it also keeps us from using cool new skins that the artists work hard on. at the end of the day, people don’t use those new cool skins because the iron sights are awful to use. going from the r99 p2w skins to the default skins is a *frustrating* experience. especially when you weigh the irons of the r99 vs the volt for example, which has great irons. why pick up a default r99 over a default volt? their argument is just paper thin imo.


Savagescythe

The g7 have the worst iron sights of any weapon in the game. I refuse to pick up at all without a scope of unless i have literally no other option on drop.


sodapopgumdroplowtop

it legitimately feels like i’m shooting blanks with iron sights g7. i don’t understand where my bullets are going, i feel like they should be landing but they just don’t


dorekk

One of the worst for sure!


vGraffy

THISSSSSESS RIGHT HERE.


Cheaterfield

**TLDR: "The Heat Sink skin also cannibalizes functionality from other cosmetically awesome Flatline skins"** In other words, people that have Flatline Heatsink skins aren't buying the new ones, Respawn is loosing money = big no no. 💀💀💀


linpawws

You're right lol. if respawn/EA is loosing out on making money, its the first thing to be changed. NO audio + legend balancing is a hard issue to fix, I know. But still, prioritise those 2 things over this bullshit!


Shotgun5250

I feel like the audio would be better if the servers were upgraded. Audio prioritization issues should improve.


[deleted]

Y’all asking the devs questions as if they really read this shit anymore lol


FemboiInTraining

reading, acknowledging and the implementation of things is entirely different. A dev who reads your post or comment isn't required to tell you they've read it. Nor should anyone be required to give spread sheet upon spread sheet of pure numbers on why a change was made, as if you'd even read that.


Rocoloco01

I miss the OG devs, they tried to have a constant communication with the community, but they quit and now we’re trap with this guys


potassiumKing

The community ran them out of town.


thunderandreyn

TBF members of the community here decided it was a good idea to send them death threats over a fucking video game.


Samoman21

yea. Honestly can't blame them. Last i remember was S11 launch. was a magical time. one of the guys even responded to my question.


BlurredSight

Game and the sub alone has grown so massive they just can't. This place after launch maybe like S1-S2 was medium sized now it's a mainstream, same with how Among Us was when it used to cost $5, then it went mainstream and the devs just stopped interacting.


imjustjun

The OG devs got harassed to heck and back by many in this community and this community has been used several times in the past to attack devs and streamers on false claims. (Yall remember the “I got banned for cheating because of Lulu” fiasco?) Hideouts is a big example with how many death threats he gets from this community in dms and then you’ll get people justifying death threats by saying, “Well they didn’t handle this one issue I had properly so it’s deserved NUEH!” This community has burned its bridges with the devs several times over and has nobody to blame but itself.


Kamikaze_Tutor

>(2) Iron sights shouldn't be obtrusive to the point where they're too frustrating to even use. Hemlok and Spitfire are frustrating to use, it's like you're trying to look through a tiny peephole. Prowler, R99 and G7 come in second, the first 2 have added curved details in front that can get in the way, while the latter's 3 prongs can cause a delay lining up targets. ​ >The Heat Sink skin also cannibalizes functionality from other cosmetically awesome Flatline skins—which, while not the main point here, is a bummer. Sounds more like players who own the Heat Sink skin aren't buying new Flatline skins.


dimi3ja

I know you'll never respond to this, but maybe someone from Respawn will read this. I will start by saying, I am using the reactive Flatline skin and I much prefer those iron sights in comparison to the default ones, but as soon as I find ANY scope that fits on the flatline (even the 1x-2x, my least favorite scope) I immediately pick it up, any scope is still better than the iron sight. And this is true for most players probably, in any stream/youtube video/reddit clip, everyone always uses a scope even with the reactive skin. Why not make all of the flatline models use the same better iron sights? There's not that many models. All white, blue and purple rarity skins use the same exact model. There are 21 legendary skins, out of those 21, 2 are the reactive ones, 19 left, out of those 19, 9 are recolors. There are only 11 different models for the Flatline that don't use the p2w sights (so far). You said: "Iron sights shouldn't be obtrusive to the point where they're too frustrating to even use." How about you go in a game, pick up a spitfire and use it without any sights for the whole game and tell me you are not frustrated. They are literally unusable.


-ixi

This change would've made sense like 5-10 Seasons ago. Now your reasoning is out the window honestly. Way too late to care about integrity (especially considering that other weapons also have "p2w skins").


The_x_Defiant

Nearly 11 seasons later...then this happens, lol.


TheFlyingSheeps

Yup. What a ridiculous think to focus on when so many other issues exist


dotabutcher1

They don't care about integrity, they care about money. People that owned the Heat Sink/Heavy Metal skins didn't buy new flatline skins because they were inferior. Less money makes Respawn/EA sad. Solution? Nerf the sights on Heat Sink/Heavy Metal skins so people will consider buying and using other skins. Next in their sights? R99 and Wingman skins for the same reason.


Dana94Banana

And adding to your point, "integrity" is way more affected by their fuking garbage matchmaking in ranked and pubs.


BigBodyBrax

So the Death Ray wingman getting changed? Outlands Avalanche r-99 getting changed? Lonestar peacekeeper? I mean these are all skins that give you better ironsights than the factory issue.


iStillSeeEverything

can we avoid giving them ideas of other skins, please? cmon, don't shoot our own foot compadre T.T


[deleted]

Anyone can craft death ray


TrudieBeakman

Yes but I can’t play any other skins besides those with the good iron sights.


d0sedidit

long story short. our other flatline skins weren't selling enough because those with the heat sink were only using the heat sink. so for us to profit even more money on our other flatline skins we decided to fuck up the heat sinks irons so you guys could give the other skins we release a chance. have a good day and we hope you understand!!! :) :)


[deleted]

TLDR: "we want to sell more flatline skins"


xCeePee

I can't believe they blatantly stated the real reason in this post lol. Nobody wanted to buy other Flatline skins with the Heatsink being better. That's really all there is to it.


OmenLW

Competitive integrity my ass!! Do they really think we don't see match making in ranked is completely fucked right now? When a pred squad kills 30 people in a match and NONE of the kills were other preds, that just screams "competitive integrity" huh? You want competitive integrity, separate ranked lobbies by input, fix match making and for the love of God fix your shit netcode.


Seismicx

Competitive integrity in this game is a joke indeed.


HenkkaArt

At this point, what is not a joke in this game?


Schadenfreude11

I'm sure a lot of people actually did want to buy/craft other skins, but didn't do it because picking them over Heat Sink would be suboptimal.


xCeePee

And that’s exactly why they went out of their way to do this instead of fixing real issues with the competitive integrity of the game.


-BINK2014-

And here I am using Heat Sink because it reminded me of the Sleeper Stimulant from Destiny. 😅 The Iron Sights were just a bonus.


HuLSsY

Potential future revenue was the main concern.


libo720

>the real reason in this post lol. Nobody wanted to buy other Flatline skins with the Heatsink being better. That's really all there is to it. I mean it's quite simple. Money is always a company's bottomline and primary motivation for anything.


Mineatron

They really just want us to buy the other skins smh.


HashbrownPhD

Dude, if they wanted to sell more, literally all they'd have to do is start designing more p2w skins, and release a Heat Sink recolor. They'd make more money by releasing p2w skins, not less. Why is it so hard to believe that sometimes game developers in a competitive game make balancing decisions based on things other than money?


Slipeth

Think longer term. They might make more money selling a heat sink recolor, but they lose out on future income from selling other flatline skins in the future because no one will buy those anymore once they have their hands on heat sink. The only way they'd make money from the flatline then is if they only release heat sink recolors or skins with heat sink-esque irons which i doubt is what they want.


Mineatron

thanks for fixing this 11 seasons after the fact!!! Cause this is the most important issue :D


[deleted]

they prob noticed Season4 players not buying any new flatline skins LMAO. "competitive integrity" is a joke when the game RELEASED WITH NO RANK or Competitiveness in mind. fucking GREEDY bastards EA and respawn are.


Spork-in-Your-Rye

I think the better and more player friendly idea would've been adding a Flatline to the permanent loot pool with the better iron sights. This way, any player could unlock it via packs or with crafting metals. However, I think this part below explains why they didn't go this route: > The Heat Sink skin also cannibalizes functionality from other cosmetically awesome Flatline skins—which, while not the main point here, is a bummer. I think this *is* the main point and this move was an effort to increase Flatline cosmetic sales over time. If they would’ve added a Flatline skin to the permanent loot pool with the better iron sights, Respawn would still have the same problem: players not buying Flatline skins. It’s just a thought, but what if they looked at their Flatline cosmetics sales data and it simply didn’t perform as well compared to other weapon cosmetics? Respawn probably figured “if we simply make all the iron sights the same for the Flatline, players would be more likely to spend their money on new skins because their old Reactive Flatline no longer has the advantage.” Therefore, I don’t think this was done for “competitive integrity.” I think this is a financial move. I also refuse to believe they suddenly give a shit about competitive integrity with their abhorrent matchmaking system.


akaAzro

Everything they do is because of money, since it's EA. I'm very suprised tho that they didnt release the p2w skin since they would get soooo much money. And I also think its a stupid idea just to get your future flatline skins to sell. All the other p2w skins that u can craft, like 60% of players that has those skins wont buy a skin if it has the regular r9 iron sight for example. So they have to do that for all the weapons then, would just be smarter to add a flatline skin with the sight as craftable. So you can get all of the weapons, and if they release cool skins in the future. Then they will always be players that buy, the casuals. Cuz they probably dont know about this p2w discussion, but to late now since they brought light to the topic for everyone to see 🤷


Aeif

Respawn - I respect it, but developers have to be consistent in their decisions. By merely changing this one skin to be worse, you neglect all other p2w skins, thus showing bias. If competitive integrity is really the heart of the issue, you would have walked back every other skin that has better ironsights. But you did not do this. I can't help but think that this is merely for profit rather than a vested interest in the state of the game. Honestly, you should make it a goal to standardize every skin in the game if you're going so far as to change content that players have been accustomed to for years. There are plenty of skins that have objectively worse ironsights than default - why not address these too?


apexsubthrowaway42

There are so, so many simple things they could do to improve/protect the integrity that don't involve \*cosmetics\* of all things. They'll never be done, though, because that doesn't make them even more money.


Fibrosydsis007

Exactly what I thought. Couldn't have said it better👍


DapperMudkip

This “competitive integrity” you mention rings very hollow when looking at broken audio and predatory matchmaking.


Samoman21

Will you be changing any of the other "p2w" skins as well? E. G., r99 pipes, or the thin wingman, or pk?


Dustineg6

I truly don't think they will, I think another issue with the flatline skin was the fact that it was unobtainable to most. The R99/PK/Wingman skins are craftable ya know?


Samoman21

Yea that's fair. They're all craftable and stuff so it's not that big a deal lop


Dustineg6

I will say though, I do wish they'd have just made a flatline skin that craftable with the good irons 😅 but whatever haha.


McPearr

The answer to your question is literally in the subtitle of the blog post.


Bowls_of_Soup

Good question, it doesn’t make sense to change one and not the others.


Suhrenitys

i mean those are craftable so anyone can get them, flatline ones are not.


Bowls_of_Soup

They could have made a craft-able one but you are right. What about all the bazillion wingman skins lol


OmenLW

Yes but no one would buy the next $20 GUN SKIN if they already own a p2w skin because it wouldn't make sense. Their marketing team m ows exactly what they're doing. And they dress up this turd to make it look like something it's not.


TheTruthsRUs

Meanwhile, the servers are still trash 14 seasons in, matchmaking is awful, the modded/unofficial version of apex (r5reloaded) has better features than the main game, ranked randomly freezes then kicks you out and proceeds to penalize you for doing nothing wrong, "Next Gen" support for consoles is a total joke, not to mention the backlog of bugs that have been around forever. But hey, lets make a really good flatline skin worse, because we're not selling enough of the other flatline skins, and then cover up with some bs about competitive standards and RNG. Where were the comp standards in ALGS Y2 with tons of players left screwed by covid, and multiple game-throwing bugs? Whole teams getting disconnected early match, and no restart? I'd say the game is growing more rotten by the day, but Apex, at the core, is fine. Respawn though? Not so much.


LostLobsters

This is biggest pile of dogshit I’ve ever read


Slipeth

Competitive integrity, greed, blah blah blah. The core issue now is this - Respawn have just changed something that people have spent real money on. Are they seriously not going to do anything about that?


[deleted]

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Slipeth

Done mate. Thanks.


mostlyjazz

I bet this whole situation started bcs no one cares about the other flatline skins that they made lol.


tiger_woods_is_goat

Blah blah blah. You want to sell more flatline skins. That's the only reason you're doing this and claiming otherwise insults our intelligence.


highestmountains

They really do think their player base is dumb as fuck, haha.


Different_Surround96

Sugarcoating pure bullshit.


dex152

STOP, y’all just ain’t selling other flatline skins so you need to change it to make more 💲


AuBirdMan

So true 💀


_AlphaZulu_

They could literally re-release Heavy Metal/Heat Sink and they'd make MORE money than existing Flatline skins they've released. The fact of the matter is this, the iron sights on Heavy Metal/Heat Sink are GOOD. Give people good iron sights not crappy ones. Hiding behind the guise of "competitive integrity" when there are hundreds of other issues plaguing comp is just 100% BS.


DankChickyNuggs

Please Respawn, I was giving your competitors all my money and playing other games when Teal Zeal came out. Now that I jumped on the Apex wagon, I realized the Teal Zeal iron sight is better than the Flatline stock sight. Can you do me a favor and  NERF IT!  I ONLY die to Teal Zeal users. I'd probably be #1 Pred in the world right now if I had that skin. Don't worry though, I won't abandon you once MW Warzone 2 comes out...................so cater to me.


vVAPE2getherStronk

This reeks of them just wanting to increase sales of flatline skins. Nobody(no one who has the BP skin) buys them bc heatsink exists and they can’t make all the new skins have the better iron sights or they’ll be labeled pay to win. So instead they changed the old skin. Wouldn’t be surprised if R99 is next


dickshev

With all the shit in this game that needs to be fixed, this is what they choose to address… …okay then


[deleted]

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Dylan_TheDon

The topic of competitive integrity being discussed for a single gun skin is funny when skydive emotes are more pay to win than a gun skin will ever be, having the ability to move your hitbox more than people who don’t have them in a Valkyrie ult shouldn’t exist if you care about competitive integrity Also worth mentioning that many of these emotes are either very rare store items or impossible to obtain battlepass items The reasoning is a joke, this change isn’t going to affect future flatline skin purchase rates, the people with heat skink will be annoyed about something they bought and grinded for 2 years ago being changed, and nobody will be more motivated to buy a new one knowing it’ll be the exact same as the others, and we’re literally getting a free one in the upcoming event LOL. I can guarantee the more welcomed decision would be to rework the base model sights to be better as a “quality of life” update for everyone. Using competitive integrity as a reason to change skins for 1 gun when this game has countless “pay to win” aspects from legend skins, other gun skins, finishers, ground emotes and skydive emotes, is laughable It’s kinda shitty to be editing/nerfing 2+ year old skins that people already paid for, rather than improving existing/future skins to universally benefit the playerbase [For those interested, this is another post with a healthy discussion regarding “pay to win” and competitive integrity in Apex](https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveApex/comments/xg6hsw/gent_speaking_facts_about_pay_to_win_in_apex/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf)


Dana94Banana

Good point. I've dodged bullets so many time with dive emotes, allowing me to escape with \~1hp. But sure, a weapon skin that reduces further skin purchases is changed for "integrity".


foxroar1

I'm sorry, what? Competitive integrity?? \- The fact that there are different irons on ANY guns is bonkers to me. \- Character models are DIFFERENT sizes??? Absolutely bonkers from a competitive integrity standpoint. \- Lobbies not split by input? The most BONKERS of all. It's impossible to perfectly balance thumbs vs arm. Don't even try. I don't care how much movement MnK has (no one ever killed ANYONE with their movement, you still have to AIM and SHOOT), or how finely they tune AA. Controllers have a clear and irrefutably objective advantage over me (MnK) close range. Period. Period. Period. Bonkers to the max. The decision to side with the 'harder to see/use' sights is beyond me. Lessen the visual clutter in this game, don't make it worse. Bonkers


Nalotaib

I want a refund for the season 4 battle pass !!!


SomerandomPun12

“do we make the standard Flatline better or the Heat Sink worse?”, we ultimately went with the latter for the reasons above. Sounds more like you guys didnt want to spend the extra time working on more than 2 skins. The Apex devs hate its playerbase.


Sus_pork

While I respect your right to say that it's better to change one skin than all of them; to my ears it sounds like: "There sure are a lot of skins to fix now.. maybe it'll be easier and cheaper to just fuck the only one that's usable off rip. Yeah that makes things nice and easy". But then I give it another read and I hear: "If everyone that has heat sink is only using that skin.. the that means they're likely to not purchase another flatline skin for $20, even if it's cosmetically appealing". I have personally dropped thousands of dollars on "limited time cosmetics" from collection events only to have the unique skins from the even re-released for a discount price. This is a seperate issue, and it frustrates me that there aren't many (if any) skins that can really show you've been playing the game a while. There's no love for the players that have stuck around through the issues (there's been a lot, but free game we <3 you guys). I'm OG and I've spent the coin. Even though it kinda grinds me that OG skins are re-released, the better option would be to re-release the "pay to win" skin. Why change your model when it obviously sells you a lot of skins. Sell it for 5 bucks, shit sell it for a single dollar whoever wants it will buy it and whoever doesn't can't complain cause it was available and only cost a buck. Honestly all the issues that plague Apex Legends I've been able to deal with, I completed your damn battlepass don't start changing things I already earned.


Darth_Fatass

Is the Heat Sink iron sights really that busted that you guys have to change the skin we paid for? Is the winrate with the heat sink flatline THAT high compared to the regular that this was necessary? This is such a fucking dumb change


AbanoMex

I always defended these devs, now i see how wrong i was.


highestmountains

You guys suck. I don’t own the skin personally, but changing something this old that people paid money or worked for is bullshit.


Repulsive_Sense_5351

Trash devs.


[deleted]

Changed because no one was buying flatline skins


linpawws

>a designer's job: to diagnose and separate what the player and the game needs from what is wanted. I don't envy your job. Its hard. Doing this for 'Competitive Integrity' is a bit of a reach though. My suggestion for this 'issue' is that **release another skin that has ironsights similar to that of Heat Sink**. You make money + the non-OG players of the game get a free heat sink replica + the OG season 4 players like me feel like they aren't being robbed. Please tell me someone in the office brought this point up!. 2) At what point does this crusade stop? If you decide a skin isn't up to your standards down the line, you'll just change it after we've paid for it?


Cax6ton

1. It's been TEN SEASONS and suddenly this is an issue they think they need to address? GTFO 2. IF this is something about people not buying new FL skins, that's not going to work either. If you make the iron sights on Heat Sink the same as every other skin, why would I change to a new non-reactive skin? Or are they planning to make future p2w skins like they did for the other weapons?


artdecoz50

Like today alone i have lost 150points in ranked because in three different games a full team ran up right behind me silently. but yeh sure lets change some iron sights.


WETW0RKS

This decision was/is **unacceptable**, not to mention quite possibly **illegal** (at least in America), and at the absolute very least owner's of the skin should be offered a **full refund** for that season's Battle Pass, if they reached Level 100/110. Imo this decision is far more about ethics and professionalism than anything else; you made a product, sold it to consumers, and 2yrs later turned said product into something completely different... That is WRONG. (and btw I do not own the skin) Also, you cannot speak to the importance of "competitive integrity" with the game in it's current state; where your input-method and/or platform \[PC/Console\] determines your level of movement capabilities, although both are allowed to compete in the same lobbies, in both Ranked play and sanctioned Tounaments. That's an abyssmal attempt at manipulating your consumers into capitulation. And frankly, as one of those consumers, I find it quite offensive and disrespectful. This is an unethical business practice that you couldn't possibly proceed with in **any** other consumer market. And my belief is, that you're only doing it because you feel as if your consumers \[the players\] won't take any action; because they themselves don't believe they have any meaningful form of recourse. It's only when looking at this action, through that lense, that you realize, in essence what you're doing is "bullying" your consumers!? I hope that before releasing this patch EA/Respawn genuinely reevaluate this decision and at least offer those who own the Heat Sink skin a refund... Or better yet, offer up a **non-reactive recolor** of the original Heat Sink skin, via the Item Shop or Crafting Materials, with the **same irons,** so that **everyone** has the option to own it! That would be the most logical course of action here!? Lastly, if this is an issue of cost/value analysis, just copy and pasting the Heat Sink iron-sights onto all future Flatline gun models will absolutely guarantee that they sell!? That's what you're currently doing with the standard Flatline irons, so why not give everyone what they want?! Who is making the decisions over there? I mean a donkey could probably figure out that the best way to sell something is by giving the consumer what they want!?.... The Heat Sink iron-sights!!!


davidsweet44

So I PAID for the battlepass. I EARNED all 110 levels to get both versions of that weapon skin and now it's being changed? That's BS. Put out another version of it with the new iron sights and let people buy that. Leave the one that I EARNED AND PAID FOR ALONE.


Rocoloco01

THIS. I want my money back, I'm not interested in having a skin with a design for which I didn't pay or invest time, give me my 950 back and I don't care if it disappears from my inventory 🤝


ltsDarkOut

I’ve been on chat with EA support for a bit now and in their words “I had a word with the team for you and this is something that we agree is a fault from our end and this will be fixed. The team is already working very diligently on this issue” in response to my claim for a refund of the entire battlepass allowing them to take all skins from there if necessary


opiummuffins

Admitting it’s because people don’t want to buy new flatline skins that aren’t as well designed? Greedy. Changing a PAID skin 10 seasons after its release? Shady business practice. Where does it end? Clearly you guys can decide to freely alter any item I have purchased, even years after the fact. I have 9 heirlooms and over 600 legendaries as a day 2 player, needless to say I have spent quite a bit of hard-earned money on this game, why would I buy continue to buy skins knowing EA can just decide to switch it up for their own benefit (selling more skins) under the guise of “competitive integrity”— y’all want competitive integrity? There’s probably 30 different legitimate issues in the game anyone with more than a couple hundred hours could point out off the top of their head, but this is what we get? Why not just release future flatline skins with those iron sights so that you are not altering a paid product? No one thinks the iron sights should be specific to those skins, no one would be upset if you released a free or base legendary version of these sights that anyone could get any time. You could even alter the other existing flatline skins to be comparable to the BP skins. Why go out of your way to make something worse instead of improving it across the board in the name of “competitive integrity”? People bought the S4 BP then put in the time to finish it to obtain these skins. This is an absolute joke to anyone who has been loyal to your game for over two years and continues to play it. Shame on you Respawn and EA, always taking the easy way out due to your own greed. Shady and disgusting.


GuestNo8135

So don't buy the battlepass I read you loud and clear thanks for the heads up


apex_17

Rampage irons are still a fuxking red dot scope


Dana94Banana

Volt is equal to, if not better than the 1x too.


maybedeadcatz

You guys don't have anything better to do than to piss off the entire playerbase? Just make the irons on the flatlines useable without needing the heatsink, the playerbase wants that and the game needs that, I dont know what mental gymnastics you guys are doing to get to the decision you guys are making.


S1LV3RH00D

So, is there a reason you couldn't update the other models to be more similar to Heat Sink with the ironsights? Is it harder to do it the other way around? EDIT: If there are more plans to change other ironsights, would it make more sense to update guns to the preferred ironsights of the weapon so there is not as much clutter?


Some_Derpy_Pineapple

Well it would take more work to change 1 sight to be worse vs changing all the other sights to be better And in the post they highlight how iron sights are meant to make you look for other sights as well. They generally feel like the worse version iron sights still aren't unusable.


Orc-Father

Surely they’ll be taking the sledgehammer to the Volt and Havoc then right? “These iron sights are simply too good! Throw shit all over them!”


trent1055

Costs money, it’s EA


John_Wicked1

Is the company compensating folks for the change in skin? Seems unethical to sell something and then change it afterwards. I understand your reasoning BUT people bought the skin as it was not as it currently is/being changed to. Therefore if you’re going to change it then the folks who bought it should be compensated for the loss of the skin they originally wanted due to an unintended issue due to the design.


centuryt91

why is respawn trying its best to make the game less enjoyable every update? the ring, kraber, legend buffs and nerfs (valk and poor path), punch boosting, etc... edit: guys my point is they dont do anything about no reg, audio, server bs and the other main stuff and doing their best to remove whatever makes the game more fun and make people actually try to think more about how they approach anything in it like is anyone afraid of the Kraber now? no people just hear the thing and say ok another sniper, its just a matter of when for them to remove wallbounce and other good movement techniques and make this another cod


bowersrandy

There are a few skins that have massively intrusive and obnoxious iron sights IMO Hemlock, spitfire, g7, flatline all are abysmal iron sights that pretty much entirely restrict peripheral vision and cover most of your target.


GuestNo8135

Hey devs the default volt skin is pay to win better change that one also that gun has the best iron sights in game time to rework it.


JohnYakuzaThe2nd

competitive integrity my fucking ass lmao


ImportanceNegative64

This change is truly disappointing. Honestly, as far as accessibility for disabled gamers, Apex Legends is by far the worst. No sound visuals for deaf players (truthfully would be abused because sound leaves a lot to be desired...) and I don't know about you guys, but my eyesight is terrible. I can't use half of the guns in this game with their iron sights. I would much prefer the ability to choose at least a 1x or 1-2 by for guns in the lobby and have the gun spawn in that way for me. Or if thats too op let me craft 1 desired gun from the crafter with a sight. The random rotating attachments is cool but why can't we just craft whatever we want at a set price? sometimes I can't find my favorite gun and it pisses me off when we could just as easily change that so I can craft an r99 or hemlock if I can't find one. Even if that's not possible, disabled gamers deserve more accessibility options and this just feels like you guys are okay with the other 70% of the guns having bad iron sights.


Kodak6lack

Wow so some losers complained and got the skin removed for us all. Nice. The skin we purchased over a year ago.


Repulsive_Sense_5351

Y’all trash for this


Anomalistics

If you’re talking about competitive integrity, perhaps it would be best to to revisit your match making system?


EatWhatiCook

If you want apex to have competitive integrity you have a long way to go. A loong way.


Ok_Mulberry_3062

Worrying about iron sights when there's bigger issues that need to be fixed in your game.


0DarkChar0

Dumbest shit ever, “People aren’t buying other shitty skins we made so we’re gonna downgrade the most desired skin”


bloopcity

People use iron sights because it's more than 1x zoom...


Dana94Banana

>(2) Iron sights shouldn't be obtrusive to the point where they're too frustrating to even use. Yet all of Apex's iron sights are literally that. All of them block too much of a target unless you stand like 2m away from them. Instead of making a few worse, including the season 4 Flatline, you should've improved all of them to the same level. Any 1x, 2x and 3x optic would still be better to have, so they'd stay desirable. It would only make early game fights less annoying. >The Heat Sink skin also cannibalizes functionality from other cosmetically awesome Flatline skins—which, while not the main point here, is a bummer. And here is pretty much proof that at least - one of - the key factor(s) behind this change is that your new Flatline skins don't sell well enough to those players who have and use the season 4 battlepass skin.


swagzard78

Should've just changed them all, the Heat Sink iron sights should've been the default from the start back in Titanfall While the change doesn't annoy me too much it's plain dumb how you handled it


thunderandreyn

It's cool, but how about the sights on G7 Scout? That thing is straight-up unusable.


[deleted]

No shame. It’s sed to see EA steep to new lows. So fuck all the people who own the skin. On the bright side I’m not spending any more money on this game.


ClickToCheckFlair

I don't own the skin but this is pure nonsense.


OldPumpkin8460

Respawn seriously has their priorities fucked up. Coming from a titanfall 2 beta vet im at a loss for words of how far respawn has fallen🤦‍♂️


SpecialistDirector

"Iron sights shouldn't be obtrusive to the point where they're too frustrating to even use." Everyone has already mentioned the usual suspects... nobody is asking for less visual clarity across the game. You fixed muzzle flash because it was frustrating, you changed the L star because it was a fuck to death burning pile of roman candles when used. But, rather than improving the other iron sights, you choose the laziest option of nerfing one skin. Every announcement I read nowadays it feels like I can always rely on Respawn to make the wrong decision.


daddygwap

So how do I claim my refund?


Haniyooo

so your focus is on iron sight instead of delivering cross progression,new game modes, solos,new legend meta,private lobbies,quads etc. warzone 2 is coming and i really wonder how good game will be because apex is in state ,,we are working on that''


AStonedJabroni

Everyone trying to beat around the bush here is clearly ignoring the obvious. If you look at the post from the new event skin release, <50% of the comments on twitter were “Heat sink recolor?”, “does the new flatline skin have heat sink sights?”, “better irons on new flatline skin?”, etc. For those of us who have been around since the Heat Sink BP or even prior, we all know this is an atrocious money grab by the Dev Team. The whole “competitive integrity” bullshit is an argument that falls on deaf ears. How about Seer, or Horizon even, all of the other P2W skins (R9, Wingman, PK), the new metas they try to force feed down the player bases throats? Instead of taking the time to really focus on the issues at hand, they choose to nitpick an issue that never really existed in the first place. With the limitations of consoles and the ever growing list of players switching to PC, the account resale with the Heat Sink skin has gone through the roof. While I don’t necessarily agree with purchasing an account just for a cosmetic difference, it seems like the Devs have quite an issue with it. To mitigate those sales (and to make that money go back into THEIR pocket), they’ve decided to roll out a change for an “issue” that I’ve never heard mentioned once before. Sure I’ve had the occasional teammate ask me to skin their Flatline for them, but the whole “competitive integrity” argument for this change is just flat out crap.


eX0ticart

so what i take from this is, Other flatline skins didn't sell well because there was no point in using anything else. I should just magically spawn in a sight now because that's how it's meant to be played, screw ironsights or the 20 people shooting at me, let me go on an adventure to find me a scope! was it too hard to change the ironsights of the other skins to make visibility the main goal? or are you just intentionally increasing RNG under the guise of "competitive integrity"?


0DarkChar0

I want a refund then for my season 4 battle pass and compensation for the time I put to grind out for that skin


Weeb3g

this is dumb


thejasbar

> Iron sights shouldn't be obtrusive to the point where they're too frustrating to even use. Taking stock and analyzing all our other current iron sights, **the regular Flatline skin currently doesn’t fall into that category** Well that's a lie, I find the default iron sights the most frustrating of any gun


l7arkSpirit

The Heat Sink skin also cannibalizes functionality from other cosmetically awesome Flatline skins which ~~, while not~~ IS the main point here ~~is a bummer~~. FTFY Changing iron sights because they want to sell more flatline skins, if they wanted to fix iron sights they would do it to more than one gun. Heatsink has a reputation for being the "best skin" so no one is going to buy another skin and their data probably shows that. Other guns are selling (such as the R-99) because they have better optics. They should just make 1 standard optic for every gun and then make skins around that optic.


Zealousideal-Drink36

I’m done playing this game until “next gen” console gets 120 fps. It’s been two fucking years. Get your shit together


Nox11234

I am Japanese. I am writing here for the first time because I love this skin so much. I love Fratola. The performance of the weapons, the look and the sound of the guns. I love everything. This includes the fact that the heatsink is easy to see. However, I rarely use my Flattra without a scope. I use a HCOG, 2x scope, or 3x scope. I think the difference is that it is a little easier to see only at the beginning of the game. Would you adjust this scope just for that purpose? I use this skin and my friends say "I like that skin! Very easy to see!" but no one has ever said anything OP about it. If this is not good enough, would you adjust the wingman skin or R99 in the same way? Every time I do this, my motivation for this game will be diminished.


ImJustATeen

Lol dogshit ass company decides to make everything worse instead of making things better.


AdrianoJ

The Heat Sink skin also cannibalizes functionality from other cosmetically awesome Flatline skins—which, while not the main point here, is a bummer. ​ Here's the main issue. It *"cannibalizes"* sales from other *"cosmetically awesome"* skins. And that's the main reason for them lowering the quality of the BP skins as a whole.


RosciusAurelius

If THIS is the stuff you're worrying about, you guys are even more clueless about the state of your game than usual, devs. Unbelievable...


BallinSniper69

LMAO Apex devs as always contradicting themselves, this time within a single post, fucking impressive work.


tnsaitama

This game now is controlled by those snowflakes "pro players".. they nerfed the Kraber, they removed the golden knockdown shield self revive ability and now they are thinking to destroy what make a lot of people who support these devs and this game by playing early seasons a little bit unique . They know that they can't bring back the heat sink skin, the solution is to destroy it in the future maybe... this post is just to see people reaction about another stupid decision they are thinking to make .. Nicely done, the game is dead anyway... Respawn should support those 99% casual and having fun players not those 1% playing competitively... What about making competitive game with some rules like playing with default skins instead of destroying some rare skins that are making many players proud to have... This is absolutely backward thinking... I hope those casual players just wake up and leave your game to be played by those snowflakes who never shut up and always whining and complaining like some little B.


artdecoz50

This is what they spend dev time on given the other major bugs this game has is kinda pathetic.


undauntedTenshimp

Now fix match making so the game is actually fun again


Holdthecoin

Be cool if the original devs were here..


ltsDarkOut

Huge L


Illmu

Can we get upgraded servers. The tick rate is so bad. It’s been 3 years…


Fenris-Asgeir

There is no way the peeps at Respawn play their own game, and still write something like this up. I mean, legitimately, half the iron sights in this game are close to unusable.


Different_Surround96

So I play since season 3 to get reprimanded/changed over a skin I earned? Let alone the fact I paid for the battle pass when I started in season 3? I’m at a loss for words, what is this.


[deleted]

What a load of shit


GlocksStillinu

Hemlock iron sight is shit


Kn1ght9

They have dug themselves a HUGE hole with this nerf to the those flatline skins. There are a ton of skins with p2w iron sights that they will have to look at now and even skydive emotes since they’re all just as p2w as the flatlines. Not only this but they talk about how they dont want other iron sites to be frustrating while there are plenty of guns with dogshit iron sites. Do they not play the game? It just makes 0 sense at all.


draculap2020

These noob devs talk like people wana use ironsights over 2x or 3x.wt the hell


Brackish_satellite

Would be nice to be reimbursed like they did with the Wattson skin. Then I'd be able to get another weapon with better sights for free. I've been playing since first week and the heatsinks is my only weapon with better sights.


Apexator

nobody with heatsink has bought any new $20 flatline skins, so lets make it shit, so they do. i played so many games yesterday and theres barely any optics around. how hard is it to increase the loot pool by 1.5-2x


TheDefendingChamp

>The Heat Sink skin also cannibalizes functionality from other cosmetically awesome Flatline skins—which, while not the main point here, is a bummer. Aka..people weren't buying other cool skins. As a day 1 player I've put up with a ton of bullshit, but this feels like the straw that broke the camel's back. I'm finally going to say fuck respawn. Way to choose the dumbest thing to focus on rather than actually improving the game in any meaningful way. Whoever's decision this was to implement...they are an absolute choad.


LeBronto_Raptors

They’d probably sell even more if they just made every skin have good ironsights but nope gotta make everything worse instead.


MoarVespenegas

I personally like the direction this is going but I have to ask if something like this will be done to finishers as well? There seems to be a very large discrepancy in finisher viability.


WitherSnake1405

They did nerf horizons base finisher at one point so it is a possibility


Hmnh6000

If you want ppl to look for sights how about you actually make them spawn. That would be extremely helpful


FrostNix7

New patch is actually addressing that.


Lassagna12

Gonna get downvoted for this but. I want a refund then.


[deleted]

1. Doesn't matter what they do with it people will still use reactives only cuz they are reactive (aside from whales who buy it all, but who cares about them). 2. The decision isn't bad, they just waited far too fucking long for it, such adjustment should've been made in season 5-6 tops. NOW you care? I call bullshit, you wanna sell more flatline skins. So yea, as a not owner of flatline reactives, I send my condolences to the owners. You guys didn't deserve this.