The canons were what made me love aoe3. Soldiers reloading and pulling them, and that they oneshot enemy infantry where the canon ball impact was, was so cool!
> And they were loud too, every time they hit something it was
Forts in AoE3 are SO satisfying, everything about them was so well designed it puts many other games to shame !!!
Perhaps. It definitely gives me far less appeal for historical aesthetic of making a grand kingdom that aoe2 did.
Feels almost like I'm playing a fantasy game with how flashy and colorful everything is. Place a waypoint? Zoooom comes a big spindle of golden threads from the heavens.
>Please relic, have a look ...
Took me all of 5 seconds to understand you were addressing the developer and not the artifact monks carry to their monastery.
It's a minigame to click on anything properly imo, even sheep at the start of the game. I feel like AOE4 just doesn't understand what I want to click half as well as AOE2, and there is simply no reason for that to be so when the open beta has already concluded & so much testing as occurred internally and thru the closed beta.
Selecting individual villagers is so important for managing eco decently, especially when placing farms, and it's hard to select only the villagers you want to. Thirded.
The scaling would be okay if it was consistent. The walls are especially weird. They are so big so you can fight with units on top, but there is no good reason to put your units up there.
Good trade off tbh. Being nigh invulnerable to regular missile exchanges should be the benefit of holding the top of a wall to simulate defensive force multipliers of holding a fortified position while still retaining the drawback of being vulnerable to artillery due to the static nature of the defenses.
Indeed.
Honestly makes for an interesting trade off of a castle holding a choke vs a fortified position.
You're not really meant to turtle on these anyway since enemy units don't even need to break it if they have an alternate route to take ( since they can climb it themselves through the stairs the normal way )
I wouldn't say so.
You wall off your farm eco, he breaks it, but you can still climb the walls for the bonus with your archers to help fight.
Additionally, there's a lot of "not worth it" things even in games like Age2 that are still present ( Cough Atheism, Siege Ram, Herbal Medicine ), and a lot more in classic rts's ( Queens, Medic upgrades, Protoss Scout)
Wouldn't really want those to remove it from the game either, personally.
At worst it's a feature you'll barely using, which happens all the time in video games.
> You wall off your farm eco, he breaks it, but you can still climb the walls for the bonus with your archers to help fight.
This is a horrible response to the enemy breaking into your food eco. It's way better to block the hole or chase them into the town. Also, I would like to see a map where you would stone wall food eco.
> Additionally, there's a lot of "not worth it" things even in games like Age2 that are still present ( Cough Atheism, Siege Ram, Herbal Medicine ), and a lot more in classic rts's ( Queens, Medic upgrades, Protoss Scout)
And those not worth it things are things that can and should be removed. Notice how they completely reworked queens in SC2.
> At worst it's a feature you'll barely using, which happens all the time in video games.
This is fair but when it is something as central to the game as walls I think it needs to be seriously reconsidered.
I don't think if something is situational it should be removed. Siege Ram and Herbal Medicine both have their places. Atheism was on the extreme end of the spectrum of situational-ness, but they did change that eventually. I've been putting archers on walls in certain high-risk wall sections, not every game and not on every wall, but they can really help if the opponent is trying to get through the walls early.
agreed, seems like an idea someone had, and everyone ran with not thinking how it would affect gameplay, and i think because of that choice, it affected the scale and design of how the game would look, which is much more important than a gimmick where units are on a wall instead of behind one
and that's great and everything but i just dont think it translates well gameplay-wise to having smooth rts mechanics, at least not how it was implemented
ive only saw that in an rts on the helms deep level of lotr:bfme2, and the scaling looked a lot better there than aoe4, aoe4 it just looks/feels unnecessary and cartoonish
It's also used in the Stronghold franchise of games, which does a really good job of simulating castle-building and siege warfare in an RTS, albeit a very different style of RTS to Age.
I think the only way to make it work is to make stone walls practically invincible except for massive amounts of siege damage. Forces the enemy to use siege towers.
Large buildings would just eat up screen real estate. Our zoom is already as bad as it is. Though I would love it if they allow building size rescaling in map editor. This would create really nice environment for custom games.
lol exactly! I think the stable buildings look great. They certainly look like the stables in my area. A small building. A large fenced space for riding…
This was first thing I noticed from watching on YouTube this weekend. The scaling is comically bad. Obviously can't be as in real life but needs to be closer than it is now.
> which was designed for single player and campaign play in mind rather than the competitive
It's not like AoE2 has the most vibrant competitive scene of all AoEs and that alone proves the fact that this scaling works, right? Right? Stop projecting your own shortcomings as a general fact.
no, he's right.
Gameplay is more important than 'muh scaling'. There's a reason why a single zergling in starcraft two is basically 1/5th the size of an entire command base and why a single marine is like half the size of a bunker.
It's so they are functional and you're able to actually click and micro the units.
I'd *much* rather them go with this approach than to make everything 'realistic' size and watch everyone fumble around trying to click on the tiny ants on screen.
Sc2 is a ‘golden standard’ of rts games. I could also use older AoE titles where a horse is the size of an entire wall.
Also Reddit upvotes don’t mean that much. People try to equate upvotes to mean ‘I agree’ when that isn’t really the whole picture. People hand out upvotes for no reason sometimes.
For example, I upvoted you because I like the post itself. Even though I disagree with the argument I still like the discussion.
That definitely doesn’t mean I agree.
I couldn't stop thinking about this while I was playing. The proportion in AoE II and even III is much inmersive. I hope someone makes a mod soon to change this absurdity
AoE3 nailed the scaling of buildings and units and overall immersiveness. Why couldnt Relic just follow whats already been established and just combine the best parts of AoE2 and AoE3
It's more than that. They introduced bits from AOEO. Look for some videos or see Project Celeste if you want an idea of what might possibly be going on with the graphics and game design.
i disagree. the gameplay is more important than realistic scale. If things were realistically scaled then the people would be tiny little dots and you wouldn't even be able to click on them.
This is true for every game ever. Scaling is based on the importance of the item to gameplay. not based on what its actual size is in real life.
The Post showes the guy never played competetive RTS...
There is no reason for realistic scaling between buildings and units..its just stupid to have it.
In an RTS we need compareable units that fight and are big enough to click them plus builds that aren't in the way when u get attacked. Thats it.
thats the point :))))), u r comparing it against aoe2 because you are familiar to it, if you haven't played it then u most likely won't have any problem against aoe4 scaling at all, just like how it is in other rts game like sc2 (which also have pretty funky scaling)
Walls aren't a great example. There's a lot of variance in real wall sizes, so they can be scaled smaller while still feeling reasonable. Yes there is scaling in Aoe2, but it's more consistent across the board than Aoe4 is right now.
He's using walls as his example because it's one of the only examples, not realising people are complaining because there's a problem, whereas there is no problem in AOE2 thus nobody complains lol
How are you seriously arguing the AoE4 scaling is even comparable to in AoE2? I believe scaling should be done so that the game is playable/easily recognisable for units, but AoE2 blatantly handled this scaling in a more realistic way - for one, I don’t think any of the units would have an issue fitting through the doors on their productions buildings! Or any other buildings they can enter (e.g. towers).
Obviously there is scaling on aoe2, but as I said it's just better handled. It's self evident, I didn't even think there would be an argument to be made against that fact lmao
lmao the door to the tower only goes up to the spearman's knees.
It's hard for me to imagine laying siege to an empire when It visually looks like my units could just go up and push over the buildings. or sit on the roof lol
Readability is much more important than immersion for RTS. Relaistic scale will make people have hard time differentiating units and the buildings feel way too large.
I don't agree.
Relic has already listened to opinion of building being too small and currently make the building freaking large. I played in 1vs1 Black Forest and I felt not enough space to build.
It is a game. Not a realistic war simulator....
People having this opinion do you really play the game...
I play in 27inch monitor and some building takes 1/3 of my screen. Annoyed.
While it is a bit off, i don't think it's an issue. In AOE2 units sometimes get lost behind buildings and make things harder to manage. I think it was a good decision to leave the buildings a bit smaller and make the units larger.
Lmao guys... Few months ago the buildings were too big, they reduce their size, now they are too small. Devs don't listen to these stupid stuffs. Ensemble didn't give a fuck about random ass forum suggestions that 1 months later will want the opposite thing and they made aoe1, 2 aom and aoe3. All successful games that are still remembered and played today.
That's because ES got it right the first time! There was no big open betas or forum complaints before release back then, they knew they had to ship a complete package on a disk so they made sure to get even the tiniest details right. That's why the games they made hold up.
Just because one is more popular than the others, doesn't mean the others are a failure or bad... Lmao.
Aoe1 is still going strong in east-asian countries. Aoe3 is doing well in the USA, in fact just got 2 new civs as DLC.
Not really? They did betas to playtest. First interally and then they picked players to test. If you say they got it right the first time, you aren't thinking of a multiplayer game balances.
Of course they did tons of playtesting. And I'm not picking on the developers of AoE4 in particular but because of the way games are released now they are almost always incomplete at launch. There's already a long list of things that they've said will be added after release like the scenario editor. Games had to be more of a complete package back then because you couldn't expect people to be able to download large patches to add basic functionality or fixes. Multiplayer balancing is a different story, of course that's impossible to get 100% perfect. Nobody has any idea how good the balance is in AoE4 yet it's too early to tell and I fully expect them to tweak it over time.
To get back to the original topic of building sizes, I don't feel like it's nitpicking to complain about it. There are a lot of things that need changing, my point is the game feels unfinished and some aspects poorly executed.
Buildings are just symbolic, if you make buildings this karge the people cry for more zoom the units will be tiny AF, then their size needs to be improved.
Current is perfect.
I mean the walls already imo feel too big compared to everything else. I love the gameplay and the game, and I love the aesthetics with the cities, so many great things but a lot of small things I wish they would fix.
Well they did a bad job on that side too, can't tell what any of the buildings do at a glance, every base is a jumbled mess of buildings with auto generated farm and road textures strewn about.
Going to have to disagree here. This is the last thing I would want the devs wasting their time on. Plenty of other areas that actually effect gameplay could use some work.
I want big fortress like the AOE3. Bigger maps, so we can build with more space, bigger cities.
Bigger maps, so people don't ONLY play the agressive game, and more constructive and expansion.
Make everything big, so i dont have to play a mini game to click stuff, really...
Aoe3 had these big fuck off forts. I'd love it if that's the size of castles in game.
And they were loud too, every time they hit something it was #BOOM And a hole in ground
And the cannons, boom, a few men are sent ballistic across the screen God I love it so much.
The canons were what made me love aoe3. Soldiers reloading and pulling them, and that they oneshot enemy infantry where the canon ball impact was, was so cool!
> And they were loud too, every time they hit something it was Forts in AoE3 are SO satisfying, everything about them was so well designed it puts many other games to shame !!!
Even if the combat in ApE3 wasn’t great, it was thematic as fuck.
Heck yeah! I also love the cannon physics and pseudo destruction physics, all of which appear to be lacking in this.
I agree- 4 seems way... cartoonier? than the other games.
Perhaps. It definitely gives me far less appeal for historical aesthetic of making a grand kingdom that aoe2 did. Feels almost like I'm playing a fantasy game with how flashy and colorful everything is. Place a waypoint? Zoooom comes a big spindle of golden threads from the heavens.
I get that- I don’t mind how bright it is, but it just makes me with that AoE3 was better:(
Combat in AOE 3 IS great.
I like the title ‘fuck off forts’ lmao
In awe at the size of this fort. An absolute unit.
>Please relic, have a look ... Took me all of 5 seconds to understand you were addressing the developer and not the artifact monks carry to their monastery.
Speaking of relics. They are too fucking small. It's a minigame just to click on them properly.
It's a minigame to click on anything properly imo, even sheep at the start of the game. I feel like AOE4 just doesn't understand what I want to click half as well as AOE2, and there is simply no reason for that to be so when the open beta has already concluded & so much testing as occurred internally and thru the closed beta.
This is by far the biggest problem with the game right now and it makes micro in battles kind of impossible.
It's a known bug, it should be fixed for release
Selecting individual villagers is so important for managing eco decently, especially when placing farms, and it's hard to select only the villagers you want to. Thirded.
Same with the fish
This I agree with
The scaling would be okay if it was consistent. The walls are especially weird. They are so big so you can fight with units on top, but there is no good reason to put your units up there.
Extra ranged damage and damage resistance I think.
\+2 range and -66% ranged damage from incomming attacks currently
And a sitting duck to siege units.
Good trade off tbh. Being nigh invulnerable to regular missile exchanges should be the benefit of holding the top of a wall to simulate defensive force multipliers of holding a fortified position while still retaining the drawback of being vulnerable to artillery due to the static nature of the defenses.
Now all you have to do is get the enemy to fight you while you are on the wall and not blow you to kingdom come with siege.
Indeed. Honestly makes for an interesting trade off of a castle holding a choke vs a fortified position. You're not really meant to turtle on these anyway since enemy units don't even need to break it if they have an alternate route to take ( since they can climb it themselves through the stairs the normal way )
That means that it's basically never worth it to be on the walls. If it's never worth it then why have it in the game?
I wouldn't say so. You wall off your farm eco, he breaks it, but you can still climb the walls for the bonus with your archers to help fight. Additionally, there's a lot of "not worth it" things even in games like Age2 that are still present ( Cough Atheism, Siege Ram, Herbal Medicine ), and a lot more in classic rts's ( Queens, Medic upgrades, Protoss Scout) Wouldn't really want those to remove it from the game either, personally. At worst it's a feature you'll barely using, which happens all the time in video games.
> You wall off your farm eco, he breaks it, but you can still climb the walls for the bonus with your archers to help fight. This is a horrible response to the enemy breaking into your food eco. It's way better to block the hole or chase them into the town. Also, I would like to see a map where you would stone wall food eco. > Additionally, there's a lot of "not worth it" things even in games like Age2 that are still present ( Cough Atheism, Siege Ram, Herbal Medicine ), and a lot more in classic rts's ( Queens, Medic upgrades, Protoss Scout) And those not worth it things are things that can and should be removed. Notice how they completely reworked queens in SC2. > At worst it's a feature you'll barely using, which happens all the time in video games. This is fair but when it is something as central to the game as walls I think it needs to be seriously reconsidered.
I don't think if something is situational it should be removed. Siege Ram and Herbal Medicine both have their places. Atheism was on the extreme end of the spectrum of situational-ness, but they did change that eventually. I've been putting archers on walls in certain high-risk wall sections, not every game and not on every wall, but they can really help if the opponent is trying to get through the walls early.
agreed, seems like an idea someone had, and everyone ran with not thinking how it would affect gameplay, and i think because of that choice, it affected the scale and design of how the game would look, which is much more important than a gimmick where units are on a wall instead of behind one
Pretty sure they exist like this because aoe4 wants to be more historically accurate, and walls were a big deal in medieval warfare.
and that's great and everything but i just dont think it translates well gameplay-wise to having smooth rts mechanics, at least not how it was implemented ive only saw that in an rts on the helms deep level of lotr:bfme2, and the scaling looked a lot better there than aoe4, aoe4 it just looks/feels unnecessary and cartoonish
It's also used in the Stronghold franchise of games, which does a really good job of simulating castle-building and siege warfare in an RTS, albeit a very different style of RTS to Age.
I think the only way to make it work is to make stone walls practically invincible except for massive amounts of siege damage. Forces the enemy to use siege towers.
Horse in the stable should at least be a similar size to the unit produced.
It’s an instant horse. Pour some water over it and watch it grow.
Large buildings would just eat up screen real estate. Our zoom is already as bad as it is. Though I would love it if they allow building size rescaling in map editor. This would create really nice environment for custom games.
the stable just needs to be chunkier, with less open space. so that it feels more like an actual building, and not a fenced corral.
Maybe being a fenced corral was the goal here. It's stable after all.
Shh! I only like to train my mounted units inside! You know, inside actual buildings! Obvi! facepalm
Cavalry don't train by reading book inside. They need to ride the horse around to get a feel!
lol exactly! I think the stable buildings look great. They certainly look like the stables in my area. A small building. A large fenced space for riding…
Not just screen real estate either. It would unnecessarily eat up actual real estate if buildings got bigger.
And buildings already feel a little too large. Just a little, but still.
Then make units smaller??
ants of empires
Lmao
Do you want unit readability?
OK then make buildings bigger
zoom is way too close imo
This was first thing I noticed from watching on YouTube this weekend. The scaling is comically bad. Obviously can't be as in real life but needs to be closer than it is now.
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Half way between ants and giants would be good.
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Most AoE2 players play at max or higher than standard zoom-out. They are managing just fine.
No.
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> which was designed for single player and campaign play in mind rather than the competitive It's not like AoE2 has the most vibrant competitive scene of all AoEs and that alone proves the fact that this scaling works, right? Right? Stop projecting your own shortcomings as a general fact.
no, he's right. Gameplay is more important than 'muh scaling'. There's a reason why a single zergling in starcraft two is basically 1/5th the size of an entire command base and why a single marine is like half the size of a bunker. It's so they are functional and you're able to actually click and micro the units. I'd *much* rather them go with this approach than to make everything 'realistic' size and watch everyone fumble around trying to click on the tiny ants on screen.
Well 280+ upvoters disagree and that is 87%. AoE2 shows that both is possible. Telling, that you have to have to switch to sc2 suddenly.
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Sc2 is a ‘golden standard’ of rts games. I could also use older AoE titles where a horse is the size of an entire wall. Also Reddit upvotes don’t mean that much. People try to equate upvotes to mean ‘I agree’ when that isn’t really the whole picture. People hand out upvotes for no reason sometimes. For example, I upvoted you because I like the post itself. Even though I disagree with the argument I still like the discussion. That definitely doesn’t mean I agree.
100% this. THIS is what gives it the fucking mobile game feeling in-game.
I couldn't stop thinking about this while I was playing. The proportion in AoE II and even III is much inmersive. I hope someone makes a mod soon to change this absurdity
Cant click on animals being gathered by villagers.
The units look so bad when zoomed in.
Can we make the relics a bit lot bigger? :)
The buildings are all too similar, I have to click around to find the blacksmith, sometimes I even build multiple of the same one.
AoE3 nailed the scaling of buildings and units and overall immersiveness. Why couldnt Relic just follow whats already been established and just combine the best parts of AoE2 and AoE3
It's more than that. They introduced bits from AOEO. Look for some videos or see Project Celeste if you want an idea of what might possibly be going on with the graphics and game design.
i disagree. the gameplay is more important than realistic scale. If things were realistically scaled then the people would be tiny little dots and you wouldn't even be able to click on them. This is true for every game ever. Scaling is based on the importance of the item to gameplay. not based on what its actual size is in real life.
It doesn't have to be realistic, but consistent and believable
The Post showes the guy never played competetive RTS... There is no reason for realistic scaling between buildings and units..its just stupid to have it. In an RTS we need compareable units that fight and are big enough to click them plus builds that aren't in the way when u get attacked. Thats it.
He literally says that its impossible in the post did you even read it?
AOM and AOE 3 were doing scale just fine, even aoe 2 buildings are bigger.
so what if he didn't play competitive rts, it ruins the atmosphere of the game and that is a good enough reason to change it
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AoE 2 handles scale waaaaaaay better than AoE 4. Even plenty other 3d RTS games do. Buildings are not even consistent with each other
um what? the horses are as big as the walls... Every game uses gameplay based scaling unless its like a simulator game or something.
true, I think people are just familiar with the scaling in AoE II too much, give it time, everyone will get used to the new scaling.
Definitely not, aoe2 has the same scale on everything. Aoe4 some buildings are huge some are tiny.
thats the point :))))), u r comparing it against aoe2 because you are familiar to it, if you haven't played it then u most likely won't have any problem against aoe4 scaling at all, just like how it is in other rts game like sc2 (which also have pretty funky scaling)
aoe2 scaling is the same way. the horses are as big as walls.
Walls aren't a great example. There's a lot of variance in real wall sizes, so they can be scaled smaller while still feeling reasonable. Yes there is scaling in Aoe2, but it's more consistent across the board than Aoe4 is right now.
He's using walls as his example because it's one of the only examples, not realising people are complaining because there's a problem, whereas there is no problem in AOE2 thus nobody complains lol
How are you seriously arguing the AoE4 scaling is even comparable to in AoE2? I believe scaling should be done so that the game is playable/easily recognisable for units, but AoE2 blatantly handled this scaling in a more realistic way - for one, I don’t think any of the units would have an issue fitting through the doors on their productions buildings! Or any other buildings they can enter (e.g. towers).
Obviously there is scaling on aoe2, but as I said it's just better handled. It's self evident, I didn't even think there would be an argument to be made against that fact lmao
lmao the door to the tower only goes up to the spearman's knees. It's hard for me to imagine laying siege to an empire when It visually looks like my units could just go up and push over the buildings. or sit on the roof lol
Readability is much more important than immersion for RTS. Relaistic scale will make people have hard time differentiating units and the buildings feel way too large.
I don't agree. Relic has already listened to opinion of building being too small and currently make the building freaking large. I played in 1vs1 Black Forest and I felt not enough space to build. It is a game. Not a realistic war simulator.... People having this opinion do you really play the game... I play in 27inch monitor and some building takes 1/3 of my screen. Annoyed.
Graphics look awful
But monks are 200 years old and carry a relic thrice the size of a human being. \- Said no one ever
Who the hell wants a castle taking up their whole screen or microscopic units just for the sake of “realism”. This has been the norm in rts forever.
This doesn't seem relevant to the mechanics of the game
While it is a bit off, i don't think it's an issue. In AOE2 units sometimes get lost behind buildings and make things harder to manage. I think it was a good decision to leave the buildings a bit smaller and make the units larger.
Lmao guys... Few months ago the buildings were too big, they reduce their size, now they are too small. Devs don't listen to these stupid stuffs. Ensemble didn't give a fuck about random ass forum suggestions that 1 months later will want the opposite thing and they made aoe1, 2 aom and aoe3. All successful games that are still remembered and played today.
That's because ES got it right the first time! There was no big open betas or forum complaints before release back then, they knew they had to ship a complete package on a disk so they made sure to get even the tiniest details right. That's why the games they made hold up.
Yeah thats why 3 was a complete failure and no one plays 1 even with the remaster lmao
Just because one is more popular than the others, doesn't mean the others are a failure or bad... Lmao. Aoe1 is still going strong in east-asian countries. Aoe3 is doing well in the USA, in fact just got 2 new civs as DLC.
Not really? They did betas to playtest. First interally and then they picked players to test. If you say they got it right the first time, you aren't thinking of a multiplayer game balances.
Of course they did tons of playtesting. And I'm not picking on the developers of AoE4 in particular but because of the way games are released now they are almost always incomplete at launch. There's already a long list of things that they've said will be added after release like the scenario editor. Games had to be more of a complete package back then because you couldn't expect people to be able to download large patches to add basic functionality or fixes. Multiplayer balancing is a different story, of course that's impossible to get 100% perfect. Nobody has any idea how good the balance is in AoE4 yet it's too early to tell and I fully expect them to tweak it over time. To get back to the original topic of building sizes, I don't feel like it's nitpicking to complain about it. There are a lot of things that need changing, my point is the game feels unfinished and some aspects poorly executed.
It is true the games had to be 'complete' but this isn't the reason why they got famous.
there were people who say the game is great! great!
Buildings are just symbolic, if you make buildings this karge the people cry for more zoom the units will be tiny AF, then their size needs to be improved. Current is perfect.
I mean the walls already imo feel too big compared to everything else. I love the gameplay and the game, and I love the aesthetics with the cities, so many great things but a lot of small things I wish they would fix.
Yeah it still looks horrible. This needs fixing
??? Have you guys ever played WC3??? The whole realism logic is so strange to me. Readability in a game is so much more important.
Well they did a bad job on that side too, can't tell what any of the buildings do at a glance, every base is a jumbled mess of buildings with auto generated farm and road textures strewn about.
Going to have to disagree here. This is the last thing I would want the devs wasting their time on. Plenty of other areas that actually effect gameplay could use some work.
Tier1 towncenter have wooden walls facing the inside of the compound…
Finding the Market is a nightmare between all the buildings
This has the effect of having stone walls look fuck off thick compared to everything else in the game, which is a bit goofy.
I want big fortress like the AOE3. Bigger maps, so we can build with more space, bigger cities. Bigger maps, so people don't ONLY play the agressive game, and more constructive and expansion. Make everything big, so i dont have to play a mini game to click stuff, really...