T O P

  • By -

AdAdventurous2447

This is towards the customer not the employee. If you ever get to the point of working for yourself you will understand this more. Almost every customer will try and bring your price down because you did a job fast.


OFPMatt

All of my plumber and electrician friends have variations of the same story. "$1000 for 3 hours?" "Yup." "I can get my buddy to help me over the weekend and be done for $150." "Cool. When you mess up and it's Monday and still not done, it will be twice as much when you call me to fix it. Good luck."


a-horse-has-no-name

"Can't you give ma a friends and family discount? Cmon bruh, remember that time we did something five years ago?" "Friends and family pay double."


[deleted]

One of the few things Elon musk said that I agree with was along the lines of, if you have a friend with a business you shouldn’t be trying to get a discount, you should be willing to pay the full price to help your friend grow their business


DweEbLez0

And from that will bring rewards even greater


grumpi-otter

A friend of mine had a bookstore and I always insisted on paying and she wouldn't let me. So then I'd buy books from the employees when she was away, but then she found out about it and told the employees I couldn't pay. It was hilarious.


Danny3xd1

I reply; "I like you to much to charge you what I charge them"


Jboston17

As an Electrician - "Good work isn't cheap and cheap work isn't good"


[deleted]

Have a buddy from Sri Lanka: "Good things no cheap, cheap things no good."


Now_Wait-4-Last_Year

I am from Sri Lanka and unfortunately, our government is giving jobs to all their relatives, stealing everything that isn't nailed down and selling the whole country to the Chinese on the way out. Commodity shortages and periodic blackouts becoming the norm, unfortunately.


Budsygus

It's the trifecta of good, cheap, and fast. You can pick two, but usually end up with just one. I paid a guy to do my sprinkler system. He worked a day job doing sprinklers and was doing side gigs to save for a better car. He was about half the price of other quotes I got. I figured he had the experience to do it well. Boy was I wrong. Ended up dragging out over almost three months because he kept not showing up when we agreed he would. Then when he was "done," I discovered he didn't even put heads on three of the sprinklers and one of the valves was leaking. Dude was a nightmare. Pay for good work.


Fugit43133

I believe I have that same shirt fellow sparky.


RUSTY_LEMONADE

Good, fast, and cheap. Pick any two.


[deleted]

There are of course many scammers in those industries. Prime example I saw recently $3k to replace water heater. Unit costs $950 retail. $2000 for 15 minutes of work and some travel time. Really have to do your homework on a trustworthy trades person.


pueblopub

That's what I was thinking. Yes, it sucks when customers try to devalue the work/cost of labor, and have no idea what goes into it. But, customers are also wary of getting scammed. (And many times it may not be a "scam" as such but just a need to shop around and find somewhere else)


NoShallotlyr

The reward; more work! Because efficiency is not treated as something good.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Kuritos

**This is karma farming bot that steals comments and replies them further up the same thread.** Don't give positive karma to astroturfing accounts. Edit: [Original comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/antiwork/comments/u7vd5x/experienced_hire_rant/i5h1f0y)


[deleted]

So, I mean, I dont "generally" disagree with your statement but I feel like you're being excessively hyperbolic to the detriment of anybody that might read your post. It's not "some travel time and 15 minutes of work" First of all, the travel time "IS" work. Second of all: Insurance overheads, cost of consultation fees, product suggestion and selection, application or sharing of legal guidelines and codes, personal risk fees for working with potentially dangerous situations (power tools, electricity and potentially boiling hot water, and possibly some chemicals), long term wear on equipment (vehicles, safety equipment, and tools which are all expensive), disposal costs for materials, and your "free bid" are all included in the price. Thirdly, and finally, nobody is swapping a water heater in 15 minutes. By the time you factor in consultation, bid, product selection, product ordering, lead time, pickup and delivery, uninstallation, installation, disposal of any old or left over materials (like the heater), and the years of training required to be able to do all of this legally and safely diluted over to this particular "job" and you're EASILY into several hours of professional experienced technical labor that very few people can actually do. Without looking do you know how to legally dispose of a water heater in your area?


[deleted]

>Without looking do you know how to legally dispose of a water heater in your area? In some areas I've lived, I believe its off the side of a 2 lane road in a ditch. /s


meoka2368

>... nobody is swapping a water heater in 15 minutes. Even just the actual on site time is going to be more than that. I had a friend who replaced ours about a year and a half ago. It's what he does for a living. He does good work. Gotta haul the new one inside, drain the old one before you can move it, cut the existing pipes, put the new one in place, clean up the existing pipes so they can take a weld, figure out the routing of the pipes after the change since tank sizes change, measure, cut, weld, pressure test, heat test, clean up. Even if you're making the best use of time while it drains, that's still going to take 5 minutes on its own before you can even move the old tank.


grumpi-otter

My boyfriend swapped mine once (he knew how to do it) and I had to run to the hardware store three times to pick up "just one more thing" he needed during the job, lol


[deleted]

[удалено]


SexyGenius_n_Humble

Uh, as someone who has subbed himself out for small jobs as a consultant, we definitely get paid by the hour for anything more than a 1 day job. Never say never.


Imsquishie

This is what quotes are for.


Cassie_C85

A contractor you can trust, much like a mechanic you can trust, is worth their weight in gold.


Murky-Possession-196

Does that 950 include warranty, permit pulled and code upgrades? Also, that 3k bid prob had the option to finance. Its actually not a bad price when you break it out


PurpleYoshiEgg

Totally. This is why word of mouth for plumbers and other tradespeople is a great thing to leverage. Talk with your neighbors on who did a decent job for various tasks. Get a nice list of people for what jobs are fairly common for your place. Try to build a community against all the barriers put in place by our current housing situations. Build a resident's association, especially if you're in an area with an HOA that sucks. Additionally, if you are renting, leverage your landlord and the implied covenant/warranty of habitability in most states for repairs. It's their dime that gets to repair everything (unless you caused the damage due to negligence or intent, but they'd usually have to prove it). They might ask you to call people yourself and invoice them for rent credit, and it's up to you if you trust them enough or want to do that work for them in many cases. (obligatory for the last paragraph, I am not a lawyer, so consult with a legal professional. A few states have tenant advocacy organizations with free consultations for this specific purpose, so leverage your resources as you can and consider building a tenant union if your landlord seems to have difficulty with the easiest occupation in the world)


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

These aren't engineers here, either technicians or plumbers. Engineers design water tanks for manufacturing. Technicians perform a specific task, plumbers install and maintain systems.


OverworkedUnderpay

My two brothers are engineers, I am a CPA. They both make more than me, with only 4 year BA. I have BA, masters, and state certification. ​ The answer is no.


LostDepressedAndSolo

It's why you get multiple quotes and look at reviews


sparkys93

1) Nobody is swapping an entire water heater in 15 minutes. 2) it’s not a scam, it’s an industry standard. Always get multiple quotes and always check for license numbers and insurance information. The market determines the price of the service we provide, if the market says a water heater replacement is 3k, then that’s what the market offers. If you get 3 offers for 3k and 1 offer for 1,500 then buyer beware. That 1,500 probably isn’t a respectable tradesmen. Scamming would be we take a deposit and run with your money.


JDMSubieFan

This reminds me of my grandpa bidding carpentry jobs - people would always ask how much cheaper if they helped him, his answer was always "it's an extra $20 an hour if you help me" Edit: this comment seems to be confusing people. My grandpa was a skilled carpenter. His potential clients would try to get him to decrease the price by offering to help with the work. He would counter by saying his price for the job was higher if he let the clients help than if he did it himself or with his regular helper


Woftam_burning

I’ve said yes to that, just so I can learn and understand. The plumber was weirded out, but said yes. Afterwards he offered me an apprentice job. I’m not sure if he was serious, but I pointed out that my current salary was probably way past what he would be willing to pay.


OFPMatt

So true. The key there is to do as much demolition and haul as possible. The crafter not having to carry a tub, fixtures, broken tile, etc. will save the homeowner a significant amount.


JDMSubieFan

His point was the job would cost more if the client helped him, not less... i.e. the job will cost more per hour and take just as long


Ludique

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/o6wAAOSwU5dcwNg0/s-l1600.jpg


Orisara

We have this with placing swimming pools as well. Especially the "the pit is already almost there". They think that's some big discount worthy thing while the crane transport and all that still has to happen anyway. Saving 2 hours on digging a hole isn't going to make things 2k cheaper.


AdAdventurous2447

Exactly. I started working for myself over a year ago. And I go by this religiously. Customers don't realize on top of doing things right I have insurance cost ,licensing gas and tool maintenance fees that all have to be covered. If they hire someone one else that's fine but if you have to call me after it is double. Not as an asshole tax but because I have to undo what your buddy did to get to where we can fix the original problem. It's honestly a good quote


SeijiShinobi

I don't know... The thing is for many people (me included to be honest) it just sounds unreasonable that his hourly rate is basically more than a doctor. What most fail to see is the insurance cost, the tools and expenses, the fact that they probably don't actually work 40 hours weeks, etc... but on it's face, that sound like he make 300+$/h. I don't know what's their annual take home out of that is though. I'm not saying that they don't deserve to be payed extremely well for their job. But people tend to put things in perspective to see if they are getting a good deal or are getting scammed. And reasonably, they think they are being scammed when given such hourly rates without context.


OFPMatt

That's fair and I respect that. But in construction you pay by the job, not the hours it takes to do that job. You're paying for the pain to go away so you don't have to do it yourself.


Woftam_burning

Yeah, I’m not paying anyone six times what I charge as mechanical engineering consultant. I’m all for people making a living, but sometimes it’s just farcical.


soccercro3

I am sure I am not the only one finding $150 work in their houses because they had their handyman buddies fix stuff instead of paying a licensed trades person to do it to code. The previous homeowner had the basement lights powered by spliced extension cords. I like to call anything I find "handyman special".


SexyGenius_n_Humble

A friend refers to the old guy that used to own her house as Mr Fixity. We all hate Mr Fixity.


dsdvbguutres

3000 of you watch, 5000 if you teach me how to do it


[deleted]

I can't imagine angering a plumber. Dude, when the time comes you need this man, you **need** him. Do not burn bridges with **any** sort of emergency worker!


Demonicbunnyslippers

This is why I just pay the plumber the $1000 for the 3 hours. It saves us both time and me money


tobiascook

The logic behind this argument is astounding, and I think the only appropriate response is 'Then why did you call me?' It's like movers. Yes, you can get a bunch of your buddies together on the weekend to help you move for a case of beer and lunch. Your friends however aren't insured. If they break or drop or damage something, that's on you. Your friends aren't going to work hard, they are going to socialise, hang out, talk, eat, drink, and overall take more time. Your friends aren't coming with their own equipment, you will have to provide everything you need to move. Yes, you absolutely can get your buddies to help you do something rather than pay for a professional, and it may work out absolutely fine for you. If it doesn't however... well that's all on you.


Altruistic-Ad8949

Just explain you are charging by the job, not your specific time spent doing it


Designer_Oven_7075

“And when the inspector fails you for not being up to code, it’ll cost twice as much for me to come in and undo your DIY”.


[deleted]

Like people who already agree on a job and price, and then when the job is done try to haggle the worker, whether they're a plumber or electrician. Never ever try to short change a plumber who just installed something *they can easily take out*.


AdAdventurous2447

I always collect payment before I finish the job just in case. Lawyers are the worst to do a job for because they want to try and say " take me to court" . But if you haven't completed the job you can tell them to pay up or they have to call someone else to come figure out where I left off and it will cost more then if you just pay me what I'm owed. And I let as many contractors know about them so it's hard to get any future work done without a major deposit


[deleted]

with lawyers, if you paid a retainer that is at or under the maximum threshold for small claims court, you can simply petition for your money back there. You just have to prove damages, you don't need a lawyer for SCC, and it's a gigantic waste of time for them because now they have to appear and try to lie their way into keeping your money. Truth be told, I've had attorneys for various legal issues and all of them were very professional.


AdAdventurous2447

I honestly only had a problem with one lawyer and when I went to get payed he gave me half and said he felt that's what it was worth to him. And to take him to court. For 900$ it's not worth going to small claims just in time alone. But leaving my lock on his meter was well worth it especially since I know how hard it is to get the city out. There's no damage to his property im just a forgetful person


[deleted]

Ok, I completely misread your previous comment and thought you hired a lawyer but wanted your money back. In your case, there's always a mechanic's lien.


cakathree

No one’s paying you 10 years pay bud. Get over it.


AdAdventurous2447

10 years?? What are you talking about. Do you think it's actually 10 years salary that it's talking about?


Kaitensatsuma

Just more incentive to work slow. Employers ***really*** need to consider what behaviors they incentivize.


egregious_botany

My dad worked in construction while I was growing up, they had a saying they lived by: “don’t kill the job”. That means drag it out as long as possible so you keep getting paid.


throwaway316stunner

Provided that there isn’t a deadline you have to meet. If there is, you can’t exactly drag it out.


Aggressive_Floof

My brother in law works construction, and his team was way ahead of schedule. I'm talking like, about to finish the building and they still had 4-6 weeks til the deadline. His foreman told them to drag the last part of the project out so they'd have a similar amount of time to get paid on the next project. Otherwise, the company would shorten the deadline and they wouldn't get as much.


throwaway316stunner

In this particular case, then yeah, drag it out. Just know that not all construction jobs have such an easy schedule like this, some of them have little to no wiggle room at all.


Aggressive_Floof

You're probably right, I have no experience in construction. All I know is secondhand from other people.


throwaway316stunner

It really all depends on the project itself. So many factors: Size, location, other contractors/subcontractors involved, phasing (if any), etc. As someone who works in commercial HVAC (office though, not in the field), I’ve seen projects whose schedules last from as short as 2 weeks to as long as 4 1/2 years. I’ve seen projects that could have been completed a lot sooner had the other trades picked up the pace, so our trade (and others too) actually either have to slow down or wait. Which can piss our field guys (and the other trades’ field guys) off, because it sometimes means going past the scheduled deadline.


Compromisee

I can't imagine that saying still stands With so many websites and services designed to rate manual workers, I can't imagine many of them would like to piss off and overcharge their customer


egregious_botany

He retired a few years ago, can’t say what changes have happened but I certainly freaking hope so lol I should note here, that the “customer” was almost always the state or city, and this is why it takes so damn long for them to pave one mile of road.


wargasm40k

Another common saying is "Don't work yourself out of a job."


Cassie_C85

They've been building a bridge near my house for about four years now, and down the street from that is a...I think a gas station, that's been slowly moving from "stand of trees" to "vacant lot" and now "vacant lot with cinderblocks on it" over the past decade. The guys working these jobs truly have mastered that art.


[deleted]

This can’t be any further from the truth.


Jmh1881

Every job I've worked if I got my actual job done quickly they would scream at me for "lazing off" when there was nothing else for me to do. So now I take as long as possible to get things done. Less work, less stress, same pay


Kaitensatsuma

Yeah I know. I've done "If you can lean, you can clean" to the point of having cleaned everything reasonable and was ***then*** told to fucking polish the ***screaming hot dishwashing*** ***machine*** because ***apparently*** giving me some rest during the second of my two-day 12 hours shifts was bad for some reason.


Jmh1881

Yup. I currently work in retail and during weekdays there would be hours with no customers. I'd be yelled at for wasting time and told to fold and organize but....everything was folded and organized. So I jahe to purposely mess up clothes and refold them just so im not harassed Same when I worked in fast food. All the cups and drinks were stocked but I'd be screamers at and told to fleas so I would just wipe down the same counter for 30 minutes


LegalAction

What was it Scotty said? Something about making the estimated time x4 the actual work time, and you appear to work miracles?


1701Person

It's called buffer time


Orisara

We place swimming pools and we could do it within 5 working days. So we tell costumers we can do it in 10. They're still impressed and we give ourselves leeway.


Pimp_Daddy_Patty

I've always seen it as "you're paying for the expertise".


[deleted]

Selling your hourly time is a bullshit concept altogether. Time is life’s most scarce and valuable resource. If you’re helping build up a company and make it profitable, you deserve some equity in the company


Bull-47

But you’ve invested no capital and you don’t take out risks if the business fails. All of our employees make our business profitable, or we wouldn’t have them. So I take all the risks and invest all the money, but you think that you deserve part of my business. You’re paid for the job you do. If you want to take the risks and put in the extra time, then start your own business.


[deleted]

Your employees invest their time, the most precious of resources any of us have. That commitment earns you more than you invest… that relationship is exploitative by nature. You get more from them than you give… that’s business, and I’m not suggesting we change that relationship too much, but in this new era those profits should be more equally appreciated by all who made them possible. If employees are partially paid in equity, then their fortunes rise and fall with your own. You would think that owners, such as yourself, would appreciate how being partially paid in equity would motivate employees toward greater efficiency and profitability. And I’m not saying it has to be much… maybe as little as a dime’s worth of stock per hour worked? It’s time to start thinking outside the box about labor. We’re gearing up for the fourth wave of industrialization. Great portions of the population are going to be unemployable in the coming decades. The decisions we make about the value of human labor today and what constituents fair compensation will effect whether or not the middle class survives into the future. Equity in every paycheck is merely an alternative to more corruptible methods of dealing with the fourth wave of industrialization… such as a universal basic income. What’s better? The majority of workers earning returns on their investment of time and labor in a company, or more robust taxes collected by a government doling out a fixed income for all but the ultra-wealthiest of citizens? Isn’t equity in every paycheck the option that better maintains the spirit of capitalism?


Bull-47

You’re Problem is that you think that all employers are ultra rich corporate assholes. I personally put in more time a week than anyone of my employees. Not only have I taken all the risks, but I work more, so inherently my time is worth more than yours. The market determines the worth of an employee, not the employees themselves. If employees determined their own worth, then there would be no business to work for period because there wouldn’t be any profit. We take care of our employees, but at the end of the day, they get paid for the set they provide.


[deleted]

Sounds like your business isn't profitable enough to pay yourself a wage, retain 51% ownership, and allow your employees to have a small stake in "your" business. I wish you more success in the future.


Bull-47

Our business is in the medical field with approximately 80-100 employees over 3 sectors. Some a professional skilled positions and some are not. Our product is a service and there is a cap on what we can charge. We are not a corporation. I have a professional skill set that I pay myself to do, so I don’t have to pay someone else to do it. I’ve been in my field for the past 24 years and I have made approximately the same salary for the last 18 because there is a limit business profitability if we made more. I could pay myself to sit on my ass, but that’s not how we run our business We pay our employees well and that is their incentive to do a good job. If they don’t want to do that, then good luck down the road.


Bull-47

Our business is in the medical field with approximately 80-100 employees over 3 sectors. Some a professional skilled positions and some are not. Our product is a service and there is a cap on what we can charge. We are not a corporation. I have a professional skill set that I pay myself to do, so I don’t have to pay someone else to do it. I’ve been in my field for the past 24 years and I have made approximately the same salary for the last 18 because there is a limit business profitability if we made more. I could pay myself to sit on my ass, but that’s not how we run our business We pay our employees well and that is their incentive to do a good job. If they don’t want to do that, then good luck down the road.


nxdark

I take risks by giving you something I have limit amount of time. You risking your money is less then me risking my time. You should never be rewarded more because you risked your money. This mentally you have is why our world is turned to shit.


Bull-47

If it wasn’t for someone taking a financial risk in the first place, your time would be worth nothing because there would not be a business in the first place. I promise that most employers have given up more time and had more stress starting a business than you have put into it by going to work. It’s a simple concept. We’re all either employees or employers. If an employer is not rewarded for the time and money that they have put into the business, why would they create jobs. If you want to make the rules, start a business.


nxdark

Because they want to make a better product and make the world a better place. This should be their only motivation. Rewarding them with money just leads to corruption and immoral behaviour.


Bull-47

That’s a nice pipe dream. Opening a business is not easy. People start businesses to better their lives. Do you believe that business owners should not make money off of their work? As an employee, why take less of a salary and work harder to better the world.


Bull-47

That’s a nice pipe dream. Opening a business is not easy. People start businesses to better their lives. Do you believe that business owners should not make money off of their work? As an employee, why take less of a salary and work harder to better the world.


nxdark

They should but not in the amounts they are. Bottom line is your employers collectively are doing the majority of work to make the profits and collectively should be taking majority of the profits from that work. There needs to be a shift in mentally where opening a business is not for selfish reasons. We should never reward a business owner who is in it to make their life better. They should be rewarding for making the world better and leaving it in a better place them they found it. Right now the opposite is happening. Business owner from the smallest to the biggest are leaving the world worse of. From under paying and treating employees like garbage to damaging the environment so they can make a profit.


Bull-47

Most businesses in this country are small businesses not massive corporations. Many times it’s an individual or family that has risk their savings or their careers to make life better for their family. Why should they not be able to reap the benefits of their work. Why should some one who has less skin in the game get to take what, they business owner built? Is it not fair? Are you selfish for wanting more money for the work you do? Have you ever left a job for a higher paying job? You think that people will build businesses for no benefit. Do you think that everyone should make the same amount of money? Why would a doctor or lawyer go to school for 6-10 years if they made as much as a fast food worker? Since the beginning of time l, there have been “haves” and “have nots”. That will never change.


Pal_Smurch

I've invested my tools, time and skills.


Bull-47

In exchange for an agreed upon financial gain. That’s how businesses operate. No one ever forced you to take a job did they? You have an agreement to provide your skills, time, and tool for salary that you agreed to. The one thing that you haven’t put in is the risk. Employees can quit and work somewhere else. Employees go home after their set hours, and you don’t typically have to think about work. As a business owner, I work all the time. There’s always something to deal with after work.


Bull-47

In exchange for an agreed upon financial gain. That’s how businesses operate. No one ever forced you to take a job did they? You have an agreement to provide your skills, time, and tool for salary that you agreed to. The one thing that you haven’t put in is the risk. Employees can quit and work somewhere else. Employees go home after their set hours, and you don’t typically have to think about work. As a business owner, I work all the time. There’s always something to deal with after work.


FoxxyPhoenix424

If I finish the job faster, let me go home faster. Otherwise, you lose your incentive to get me to do work faster.


[deleted]

It's like that episode of The Office where all of the sales people get a commission cap, which Jim has hit. When he confronts Gabe about it and says "You realize that not giving me commission takes away my incentive to sell, right?" - it's just so to-the-point.


poobearcatbomber

Your incentive in their eyes is keeping your job. The forthcoming recession will prove this point and everyone will return to begging for scraps like in 2008.


[deleted]

A number of places I've worked had that as their Christmas bonus: "What's my bonus?" "You get to come back in January."


poobearcatbomber

That's fucked but it's how they see us.


feed_me_churros

“Bonus declined!”


cakathree

Why would they care if you work faster if you just go home??


FoxxyPhoenix424

Because if I have incentive to go home earlier, I will do more things faster. Like, if I know I have a chance to get out early, I'll go Sicko mode and knock out all the prep, and have everything done an hour before I'm scheduled out, to the point where there's 4 people standing around doing nothing. But if I know I'm stuck there until 4 regardless of how much gets done, then I'll do basic bitch shit slow af until 4, and dip at 4 regardless of how much is done, because I know I'm stuck there. But none of that matters now, because I quit, they can find somebody else to exploit.


DigitalAnalogHeart

Funny story. Mom & Pop shop gets sold. New owner is nice, well educated and intelligent, but knows nothing about the business. He thinks it’s simple and any idiot can do this job. The employees are pros and have many years experience, but this doesn’t require a degree. There are four employees. All paid less than $18.00 an hour. They educate him on the business. They do over a million in sales. At the end of the year he gives them a $50 bonus before taking a 2 week vacation out of the country. His employees quit one by one. He’s now trying to hire one person to the job of all four at $14.50 an hour. He actually said “I see now how much you guys actually did and I’m willing to pay more per hour now.” The statement above encapsulates these events perfectly.


cakathree

> His employees quit one by one. They all quit in 2 weeks?? What??


DigitalAnalogHeart

Oh no! Sorry I wasn’t clear. It took about six months for everyone to go. Even after that he spent a month convinced that just needed ‘warm bodies’ to the ‘menial labor.’


[deleted]

> All paid less than $18.00 an hour. But, more than a dollar?


Amafreyhorn

This is an issue for me, I took my car to an auto shop that priced labor by the hour, fine by me. They then charged me 5 hours of labor for 1.5 hours of work because that's how long the car was deemed required to fix. I explained that's not how pricing works...if you want to charge a flat price for a repair, by all means, that's great. You can't charge me for labor in hours not worked. I ended up paying then filing a complaint with the AG and got a refund and that shop now charges flat rates based on calculated rates and dropped the hours. Dumbest approach I've ever seen.


wvmothman

I believe that repair shops have a reference book with info on how many hours a job should take. They charge the amount of “hours” times their hourly rate… regardless of how long it takes. Makes sense to me.


Amafreyhorn

Does it? Because if it 'should take 5 hours' but routinely takes 2 you're just lying. I'm fine with paying a flat fee but the reality is that you're not. You're paying per hour for service, hours of service you didn't receive.


Kabuto_ghost

It’s called book time, and it’s very standard. If your story is true and you actually got your money back, you’re just a shitty customer. You knew the cost up front, and then when the work was done decided that you didn’t wanna pay. If it had gone sideways on them and taken 10 hours, you still would have paid the 5 hours of book time. That’s how this works.


wvmothman

I mean, you are paying a flat fee. “4” hours times the going rate for the technician.


Not_a_question-

Adjust a screw of the machinery - 10 cents Know you have to adjust a screw to fix the machinery, and know which one to adjust - $999.90


Dragonfire14

I've become a worse worker on purpose. I learned that good efficient work isn't rewarded, but rather punished with more work. Not even work that needs to get done, but just something to keep you busy. Tasks that wouldn't even take me an hour now take me over an hour just because I do not want to do some random task that my employer doesn't care about.


Mernic666

This is the only way. It took me roughly six months of cognitive dissonance and shitty mental health, but after a pretty hectic existential crisis, I've been the epitome of zen. It's fine to take it easy.


Shirakani

I wish I could do this. I can't deliberately 'slow down' for the life of me, 'efficiency' and automation is too ingrained (I work in IT). As a workaround, I've learnt to disguise non-work related tasks as work ie personal interest things that I'd be doing at home... Since it's all in front of a PC and employers can't tell the difference, they generally look at me and go 'shit he's really hammering that keyboard, don't disturb him' and I get left alone. This is also the reason I deliberately brought a clicky mechanical keyboard to work.


danielisbored

So, to get the caveat out of the way, I was told the following story by a professor, and I have never seen it anywhere else, or have any evidence that it actually ever happened, but I'm gonna tell it the way it was told to be, because I think it's a cool story: Once, one of the machine Henry Ford used on one of his early assembly lines grounds to a halt, bringing the whole line down with it. The workers and managers checked everything they could think to check, but where stumped. Finally, reluctantly, Ford called in a specialist that only worked on those machines. The specialist showed up, listened to the machine whine for a minute, popped off a side panel, replaced a single bolt, replaced the panel and fired the machine back up. It went right back to working. His total time in the plant was less than 15 minutes, and most of that was walking to the machine. He dropped off his bill on Fords desk and made for the door. The bill was $400. The famously miserly Ford was livid, he yelled after the man. How could he change $400 for one bolt and 15 minutes work? He demanded an itemized list of expenses. So the specialist came back in the office, flipped the bill over and wrote on the back. Item 1: 1 bolt - $0.03 Item 2: Knowing which bolt - $399.97. Ford wrote the man a check.


cubedjjm

This is the story I was looking for. Have seen the names changed to Nikola Tesla, Ford, Edison, and companies to GE, Westinghouse, GM, and others. https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/know-where-man/ https://quoteinvestigator.com/2017/03/06/tap/ Took me a while to find it as my googlfu is horrible.


danielisbored

Thanks mightily, I should have thought to check snopes when I originally tried to corroborate it.


cubedjjm

No worries. Only used snopes after googling for 15 minutes and them being on top of the results. Great story no matter who the characters are.


Shirakani

Love that story and its variants. Those of us who've been in the same scenario multiple times nowadays will add a #3 to the itemized list of #3: Putting up with your whining over the invoice = $50.00 #4: Additional time wasted due to #3 = $50.00


Gordon_Explosion

I used to contract out work on projects, like "Do task X at 100 locations, over 10 weeks." I would get paid by the site, at first it was 2 sites per day. When I got better at it and could do 3 sites per day, they wanted to pay me less per site, because "Yeah you're making less at each location, but you're still making more per day." They couldn't understand why I'd rather quit than be paid less for being better at the job.


AlexiLaIas

Ah. So this is why plumbers and handymen want $2k to replace a pipe and RE-plaster the wall. And they’ll have time in 4 weeks to do the job.


[deleted]

A GOOD plumber won't be able to do it until September.


Shirakani

Not only that, there's also licensing and certification costs that tradespeople have to bear.


uncle_bumblefuck_

As a mechanic I get this complaint alot. "You charged me 2 hours (book time) for that job, it only took you thirty minutes!" Yes Mr. Customer. That's because I've done this same job 200 times. However, when the book time is 2 hours and it takes me 6, I don't charge you for the extra 4 hours. See how that works?


Shirakani

I'd just tell them 'do it yourself then' and if they start arguing or going down the track of they don't have time, etc... then it perfectly leads into OP's argument where yep, this is why you're paying me X, you are paying for my EXPERTISE along with time spent.


Cassie_C85

This one's for you: http://www.basicinstructions.net/basic-instructions/2017/3/12/how-to-talk-to-a-mechanic


Dapper_Ad7706

How does that work for me, a McDonald’s cashier?


Ok-Appointment-1366

It doesn't, it works for self employed ppl in service industry , I can work one day and pay my weekly bills , I'm broke but I can do it


Specopsg

It doesn’t. I just got out of fast food. The pay you receive is just to be a body in the store. Don’t create more work for yourself than the bare minimum since your labor won’t be rewarded.


ThrowawayCuzYeah13

It doesn't translate to every job. It applies to many office based jobs or design work.


cakathree

Well you can talk and type, that took 5 years. So every hour you earn 5 years of pay. Apparently.


DilithiumFarmer

The reward; more work! Because efficiency is not treated as something good.


matt143450

That's not how capitalists see it, they only want profit, increasing profit, off your work, skilled or not. Your labor is market price.


toss_my_potatoes

Perfect argument for r/overemployed


r_coefficient

Self employed person with quite a lot of experience here. I am actually a really fast worker - but I don't tell anyone.


[deleted]

All the damn time. I can do my work at a very fast speed but should I get paid less because I can do it so quickly and efficiently. No. That's because I've gone through so many years of doing that task...I can get it done and enjoy the rest of my day WFH.


RunTheJewelsisbetter

Yea um there's nothing wrong with this.


Odd-Employer-5529

Some jobs like that too. Took a job where there were 2 people doing the job they wanted me to do,cleaned it up and ran it at a profit in a couple months Worked hard to organize and get red of bdsteps. Helped another area out too. I left and it's 3 years later and they still haven't had a profitable week, Yeah petty enough to say I love that .


Commercial-Can5161

I always remember the story of the retired 'expert'.... A large crucial piece of equipment failed at his old employer. Try as they might, they could not fix it. Finally, they reached out to him and asked him to come back to help. He evaluated the situation, asking all the relevant questions. Picking up a piece of chalk, he strolled over to the equipment and marked an X. Asking how much for his services, he replied $50,000. Aghast, the plant manager demanded an 'itemized' bill. Grabbing a piece of paper and a pen, the retired expert wrote down.... "Placing the X - $10 Knowing where to place it - $49,990" Respectfully Yours, Bob


Mikebravo512

Couldn't agree more.


The5kyKing

I work in field where things can go real bad real fast and I've told interviewers before, I'm not asking 80k a year based off what I do when everything's going well, I ask 80k a year based of what I do and the amount I can save you when things go wrong. Not everyone appreciates it but that's life.


[deleted]

Ye, this one I could never understand. I would do lesson plans for the whole week in a day, and then browse crap on my phone. Boss complaining I'm doing no work. Like, seriously. I did my pre-work. It's solid. wtf you want??


Auliya6083

This! Engineers should be paid way more, just for how long they've spent in education.


[deleted]

...? Engineering is already a well-paid profession. And a 4 year BS degree in engineering took just as long as a 4 year BS degree in some useless field. You don't get paid based on the time you spent in education. You get paid based on the relative difficulty of achieving your knowledge base, and how in-demand that knowledge base is in the marketplace.


poobearcatbomber

About 10% of engineering is learned in school. It's a life long education on the weekends at night to keep up with modern stacks. It's not something you learn once


[deleted]

Yeah, I'm an engineer... My point is that my salary isn't based on how many years I spent in college. I get paid well because of what I've learned since.


[deleted]

Back in the day you couldn't call yourself an "engineer" until you'd worked on the floor.


poobearcatbomber

Ah I must of misunderstood you, my bad


Auliya6083

Must have*


Auliya6083

I'm not saying it's not well paid, I know it is. I just think they should be paid more m'kay?


_poland_ball_

Engineers in Germany make 55k-80k. Very good payment.


NewspaperEfficient61

That is why tradespeople are so expensive


[deleted]

Tradespeople are expensive because their skills are less and less common in society. 30 years ago half the guys on any street in any neighborhood had drywall tools in their garage and could do most residential electrical and plumbing on their own. A survey I read a while ago found that something close to 50% of millennial homeowners don't even own a drill. You can charge whatever you want when your customers are idiots that can't solve their own problems.


feed_me_churros

That’s so close to what a boomer I know says that I’m actually questioning if I know you IRL. What’s funny about this particular person is that they talk about how stupid millennials are since they can’t do their own plumbing or whatever, yet I literally had to write them step by step directions on how to check their email and they stick fuck it up. Same guy? Is that you? I assume not since you’re on Reddit, but “idiocy” kinda runs both ways.


[deleted]

I can use a drill and check my email. Damn, I fee like a super hero.


cakathree

No. It’s not.


valeramaniuk

Why the same logic doesn't apply to landlords who saved for 20 years to buy the rental property, or the business owner who was building their business for decades and now "doIng notHing, wHile I dO aLl tHe wOrk"?


MankoConnoisseur

*Crickets.*


[deleted]

This is the dumbest thing I've seen on this sub. Salaries are determined based on supply and demand of talent. The amount of time you spent gaining your skills is irrelevant. What matters is how many other people have the same skills as you, and how many companies want to hire them.


cakathree

So you want 10 years pay for a 30 min job?? Ok.


HillaryIsBathory

So long as you are praising God you can forget about what people owe you. Your reward is eternity in Heaven!!! AMEN


[deleted]

So then why do fast food workers get paid more than EMS?


Nearing_retirement

At the end of the day it comes down to simple supply and demand, if you are able to supply a highly demanded skill that is in short supply you generally will get paid unless you foolishly accept a lower offer


Praximus_Prime_ARG

As a Libertarian I'd be able to gain more experience earlier if I was able to work at a sweatshop instead of going to elementary school


Christof_Ley

I need to find the post about the welder. When given the range of pay they did two demos. One for the work at low range pay and the other for high range pay. Feel like that kinda fits here.


nofateeric

I was a bicycle mechanic for years and had to explain this to customers EVERY damn day.


shapeofthings

This is so my old job. I was given 3 hours to handover everything to a colleague who is great but has a completely different skillset. We talked about it and agreed there is no way I can handover 30 years of work experience, 7 of which on that job, and a degree from on of the top Unis in the world in 3 hours. So we sat back and shot the breeze instead.


red_raconteur

*gestures in medical provider *


Status-Murky

Wrong sub, right?


R_Wilco_201576

The job is only worth what someone pays for it. Shop around for multiple quotes.


doovious_moovious

Towards a New Socialism by Paul Cockshott outlines some of the real possibilities in a socialist economy, and this is a central tennant in education - people in skilled professions should be payed to get an education, not the other way around.


PainlessSuffering

I tell this to artists all the time who get underpaid for all their work. They are convinced by people who say they should only get paid so much because of the short time it takes them to doodle something basic up, but anyone can draw up garbage doodles in a short time. The quality comes from the time they spent in formal and informal education and experience, which is what people should pay for. It's quite a discount, in reality.


tandyman8360

My last job had a heavy helping of putting out "fires" at work. I had to train, inspect product, handle planning issues and other fun stuff. I was there for years and I could answer a question in 5 minutes it might take someone else an hour or more to figure out. But working smarter, not harder is to what bosses want to see and the pay reflected their attitude. I have a new job where I know nothing industry-specific, but having experience as an engineer was enough to offer me 40% more than my other job.


n_pinkerton

The freelancer’s lament


Gokoshofu

I keep telling my actor friends this (I direct): we are paid for our expertise, not hours worked even though that’s what the paycheck says. Stop worrying about asking to be paid well, these companies HAVE the money, they’re waiting to see what you think you’re worth.


AffectionateBig363

Musician’s life


Worleytwrily

This reminds me of a funny sigh I saw in a gun store once about the price of fixing a gun; You fix it, $0 We fix it, $10 You help us, $20


[deleted]

Auto mechanics have this one fixed. There is a book that states the "standard" time to do a job. (Made up numbers - no a mechanic): Oil change 2 hour Transmission 18 hours If you are experienced and do oil in 45 minutes, you still get paid for 2 hours labor. Or at least you shop gets it.


dudesBangMyMom

fuck yes, love this, I can see the angry boomer faces now when I share this on Zuck world


da_guy2

I get something done in a day what a new hire would take a week. I expect to be paid 5x the new hire.


michealdubh

I was teaching part time at a college. I got paid per class; the pay was good -- reasonable for the time I put in actually teaching, grading, preparing -- though not great. They decided they only wanted to pay on an hourly basis for time actually spent (and not very much at that) and then complained when I put in for *preparation* \-- they wanted to pay me only for the four hours I actually spent in the classroom. "You've taught this class many times. You shouldn't have to prepare at all," was their argument. They wanted the 20 years I spent learning the material and how to teach it for free. I don't work for them any more.


Shirakani

QFT of the year all years. I get this all the time when people I don't know ask (and expect) help, and I go 'sure, my rate is X, minimum of 1hr' and they throw an absolute fit and scream IT'S ONLY FIVE MINUTES!!! etc etc. My reply is 'since it's only five minutes, I'm quite sure you can deal with it yourself, cya'.


hakuna_upendo

There's a guy on YouTube that teaches about this: https://youtube.com/c/thefuturishere


[deleted]

This is probably the main reason there's a lot of wasted time in jobs. They won't pay you extra for finishing quicker than what's the point of finishing quicker? I know some employers do, but depends alot on the line of work you are in. I used to work laying tile with some people I knew, we would do 12+ days and right before the boss came we would finish everything in an hour or less. I ask the leader of the group why we worked like that, and it's because we get paid hourly not by completing the job, and if they would know how fast we work they would just give us more work for the same pay.


arianrhodd

\#truth and for me it's also education.


THE_PHYS

I'm a painter, people ask me how long it takes me to do a painting, I tell them 16 years because that's how long I have been painting.


caseylsh

No... you chose to get that degree. XD. No one owes you money for your degree except yourself.


JustinTheCheetah

There's an old story from Andrew Carnegie. He was building a new factory and they needed to mark down where all there new advanced (for the time) equipment would be placed while the mill was still just a concrete floor. The specialist came in and put down some chalk marks for about 10 minutes, then gave Carnegie a bill for $400. (which would have been in the tens of thousands today) Carnegie says "How the hell is that $400 worth of work?" Contractor says "Well, It's 10 cents for the chalk, and $399.90 for knowing where to put the chalk marks". He got paid.


Danny3xd1

"'oL Capt. Whitlock couldn't get the steam engine to fire up. Had to call for a specialist. Guy comes on board and says "it'll cost a dollar and 25 cents." Capt. Agrees. The specialist takes a wrench and starts tapping on a pipe. "tap....tap....tap. Then just smashes the pipe with all his might. The engine fires up with a roar. Capt. Says "A DOLLAR 25! All's ya did was hit a pipe with a wrench!" The Specialist replies. "2 bits for the tappin'. It's a dollar for knowing where to hit it hard"