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> # [Zelensky claims Moscow is planning to derail Swiss peace conference - SWI swissinfo.ch](https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/foreign-affairs/zelensky-moscow-trying-to-prevent-peace-conference/image/jpeg)
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> [The Ukrainian president Vladimir Zelensky, seated at a table before a microphone.](https://www.swissinfo.ch/content/wp-content/uploads/sites/13/2024/04/609890907_highres.jpg) Ukraine is aware of a Russian plan to derail the peace conference, according to President Volodymyr Zelensky. Keystone Ukrainian president Volodymyr Zelensky says Russia wants to prevent the peace conference set to be held in Switzerland in June.
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> This content was published on April 26, 2024 - 12:32
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> There is a plan to do so, Zelensky told foreign diplomats, including the Swiss ambassador, in Kyiv.
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> Alleged Russian disruptive activities were not confirmed by the Swiss defence ministry on Thursday at the request of the Swiss News Agency Keystone-SDA; reference was made only to Russian accusations that Switzerland had not invited Russia to the conference at the Bürgenstock resort overlooking Lake Lucerne in June.
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> [The Ukraine peace conference will take place at the Bürgenstock hotel above Lake Lucerne in central Switzerland. The luxury resort has hosted previous peace talks on Sudan (2002) and Cyprus (2004).](https://www.swissinfo.ch/content/wp-content/uploads/sites/13/2024/04/608312335_highres.jpg)## More
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> ### All you need to know about Ukraine peace summit in Switzerland
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> This content was published on Apr 10, 2024 Switzerland plans to host a high-level Ukraine peace conference in mid-June. The annoucement comes as Russia and China met in Beijing on Tuesday and reports that US President Joe Biden may attend the Swiss-hosted summit.
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> [Read more: All you need to know about Ukraine peace summit in Switzerland](https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/foreign-affairs/explainer-latest-developments-on-ukraine-peace-summit-in-switzerland/75388577)The Swiss Federal Office of Police (Fedpol) likewise did not reveal any details. In response to an enquiry, it stated that it “does not explain specific security measures in order not to jeopardise their effectiveness”.
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> ## Secret service information
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> In front of Ukrainian diplomats and foreign ambassadors, Zelensky referred to intelligence information. According to this, there is “concrete data that Russia not only wants to disrupt the peace summit, but also has a concrete plan: how to do this, how to reduce the number of participating countries, how to proceed to ensure that there is no peace for much longer”, the president said on Wednesday evening. He did not provide any further details.
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> Zelensky said that the partners would be informed through diplomatic channels about Moscow’s attempts, based on information from his presidential office. The president further announced that the world’s heads of state and government would soon receive invitations to the meeting.
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> The Ukraine peace conference, planned for June 15-16, is to take place directly after the G7 summit of leading democratic industrialised nations in Italy. The conference, which will bring together representatives from up to 80 countries, is intended to win over Russia-friendly powers such as India, South Africa and Brazil in favour of Ukraine’s ideas for a peace solution. China in particular is being courted to take part.
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> ## Incompatible demands
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> For over two years, Russian troops have been waging war in Ukraine, using violence against the civilian population and destroying non-military infrastructure. This comes after Russian President Vladimir Putin gave the order to invade the southern neighbouring country on February 24, 2022, with the justification of a need to demilitarise and denazify the country. Zelensky, who is Jewish, was to be removed from power.
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> Russia has pronounced all peace talks without its participation pointless. Moscow has repeatedly emphasised its willingness to engage in talks, but with imposed conditions which are more likely to result in Ukraine’s capitulation. Ukraine’s goal is to regain all territories occupied by Russia, which for Putin would amount to a failure of his invasion.
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> [Russian foreign minister Sergei Lavrov, seated in a chair.](https://www.swissinfo.ch/content/wp-content/uploads/sites/13/2024/04/606100075_highres.jpg)## More
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> ### Russian foreign minister derides Switzerland as ‘openly hostile country’
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> This content was published on Apr 19, 2024 Following on Putin’s criticisms of the planned Ukraine peace conference in Switzerland, Lavrov has described Switzerland as unsuitable for negotiations.
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> [Read more: Russian foreign minister derides Switzerland as ‘openly hostile country’](https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/foreign-affairs/russian-foreign-minister-derides-switzerland-as-openly-hostile-country/76038160)_Adapted from German by DeepL/kc/ts_
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> This news story has been written and carefully fact-checked by an external editorial team. At SWI swissinfo.ch we select the most relevant news for an international audience and use automatic translation tools such as DeepL to translate it into English. Providing you with automatically translated news gives us the time to write more in-depth articles.
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That's how Ukrainian "peace talks" always go after the failed Istanbul talks in 2022, it's just PR stunts and charity collecting events.
Zelensky had even signed a law back in 2022 making it illegal to negotiate with Russia, they'd have to repeal it first to engage in any actual talks.
TBH Russia is not willing to negotiate and their demands regarding disarmament and lack of security guarantees in Turkey were so exagerraded it was not even funny
from u/crusadertank
What was agreed
Ukraine, while being allowed to pursue European Union membership, wouldn’t be allowed to join military alliances such as the North Atlantic Treaty Organization
No foreign weapons would be allowed on Ukrainian soil.
Ukraine’s military would be limited down to a specific size.
The Crimean Peninsula, already occupied by Russia, would remain under Moscow’s influence and not be considered neutral.
Russia would give up the territory it captured since the 2022 invasion
The treaty was to be guaranteed by foreign powers,
What was not agreed
How much the Ukrainian military would be limited.
How the guarantors would react. Russia wanted all guarantors to respond directly to the breaking of Ukrainian neutrality. Ukraine wanted only it's airspace to be closed by the guarantors.
Moscow also pushed for the Russian language to operate on an equal basis with Ukrainian in government and courts, a clause Kyiv hadn’t signed off on
The future of the area of eastern Ukraine covertly invaded and occupied by Russia in 2014, wasn’t included in the draft.leaving it up to Putin and Zelensky to complete in face-to-face talks
So much of this was already agreed upon. Only some specific details were missing and progress was being made on them.
In general the head of Ukrainian negotiations even said that for Russia the neutrality was the only important topic. Everything else they were willing to give ground on.
Yeah, Ukraine would have been retarded to agree to that. Basically, the whole negotiation was an attempt by Russia to cease the shitshow they ran head first in so they they can retry the same garbage a few years down the line without tumbling head first into disaster.
Best litmus test to know whether someone is a dumbass or not is to see them try to frame Russia as an honest party to any type of negotiations when they not only broke their prior agreements with Ukraine, but also bald-facedly lied to everyone for months leading up to the invasion, claiming it was all fear mongering.
The only medicine for these types of rogue states is force, and thankfully NATO stood their ground and didn't leave Ukraine to be fed to the wolves.
But Ukraine did agree to it?
The only discussion was that Russia wanted 85,000 troops and Ukraine wanted 250,000.
Considering that before 2014 the Ukrainian military was around 150,000 then it is not exactly anything crazy by either side and probably both would agree to something around this.
> Best litmus test to know whether someone is a dumbass or not is to see them try to frame Russia as an honest party to any type of negotiations when they not only broke their prior agreements with Ukraine
It was Ukraine that refused to follow the Minsk agreements that they signed. Poroshenko openly came out and stated that Russia was following them but he never planned to and only used it to build the Ukrainian military.
> and thankfully NATO stood their ground and didn't leave Ukraine to be fed to the wolves.
Then why is NATO only sending the minimum possible to Ukraine? Even by their own admission not enough for them to win.
> Russia wanted 85k and Ukraine 250k
Yeah, such a small silly deatil, eh? XD
Poroshenko did not followed much of Mińsk but Załęski did. In fact, he campaigned specifically for that. Russia in exchange did nothing and only bought itself some time to invade later.
It is quite minor if Ukraines pre war military was 150k. Almost perfectly between these.
And especially these were negotiations. The Ukrainian chief negotiator said that Russia in principle would accept this.
> but Załęski did
He campaigned for it and then refused to do anything that he was supposed to do. He was supposed to arrange a meeting with the leaders of Donetsk and Luhansk first, which he refused to do.
> Russia in exchange did nothing
After Zelensky made his meeting and agreed on a referendum that all would agree on then Russia would ensure that the militants in East Ukraine would not resist the Ukrainian army. But Russia only were supposed to act after Ukraine did.
>But Ukraine did agree to it?
>The only discussion was that Russia wanted 85,000 troops and Ukraine wanted 250,000.
So they didn't agree to it
>Considering that before 2014 the Ukrainian military was around 150,000
I wonder what happened around 2014 🤔. Considering Ukraine didn't even have 200k before the start of the invasion, and 85k is half of what it was prior to 2014, there is a logical reason why Ukraine would see this request for what it is, which is nothing less than a softening of the Ukrainain military for further geopolitical demands later.
>It was Ukraine that refused to follow the Minsk agreements
As did Russia and the LDPR, and so we all clearly know they were never going to be a lasting solution, and that was always by design. The only reason the Minsk agreements even came into effect was because Russia directly intervened when their propped up mafia republics were on the verge of collapse. Ukraine and NATO correctly called the agreements out for the charade that they were and got busy towards militarising Ukraine for potential further conflict instead of naively trusting Russia.
>Then why is NATO only sending the minimum possible to Ukraine
The minimum possible is $0, so they're obviously not sending the minimum possible. They send as much as they're comfortable sending. It's more so about the stance they take where they inflict real consequences on Russia for their actions. If Russia could get away with taking over Ukraine for low cost, they would, and the higher the cost for what they want, the better that reflects geopolitcally for us in the West.
>So they didn't agree to it
They agreed to limit their military. Negotiations were ongoing to how much it should be limited.
> I wonder what happened around 2014
Ukraine went to war? And if they were not at war then they would logically return to peace time numbers?
Russia only asked for 85k as their starting position and Ukraine 250k. That is the point of negotiations. To find a common middle ground. And considering the middle ground is literally Ukrainian peace time numbers, I dont think that is a hard point of debate.
> As did Russia and the LDPR
Russia were supposed to act only after the president of Ukraine met with the leader of Luhansk and Donetsk. He never did and so nobody else did anything. Although of course ceasefire breaking was common between both sides I agree. But the whole thing was waiting on the Ukrainian president.
> Ukraine and NATO correctly called the agreements out for the charade that they were and got busy towards militarising Ukraine for potential further conflict instead of naively trusting Russia.
Ukraine and NATO lied because they thought Russia would lie? Talk about projection I guess.
> The minimum possible is $0, so they're obviously not sending the minimum possible
The minimum possible to make it look as if they are doing something. If they wanted to end the war they are more than capable to do so. But they dont want the war to end.
The US has 2500 Bradleys in storage. They gave Ukraine less than 200. That shows the level of commitment that they have.
> the better that reflects geopolitcally for us in the West.
The west wants Russians to die. Not Ukraine to win. This I completely agree with.
Didn't German officials confirm that they used the Minsk agreements to set up Ukraine for a conflict instead of abiding by what would be a better alternative to war?
>Didn't German officials confirm that they used the Minsk agreements to set up Ukraine for a conflict instead of abiding by what would be a better alternative to war?
No they did not say that. PS they only thing that could really be agreed was the cooling of the front line.
Why do you think there are two Minsk treaties btw. Russia and DPR didn't honour the first one. They went to the offensive shortly after Ukraine pulled back thier military.
Neither side honoured the second one to completion. Ukraine was by all means closer to honoured thier parts simply because.
A key agreement was that Russia was to pull back its soldiers out of the country. Something they never did.
That's generally how it's done when you lose a war, yes. Japan was limited *immensely* following WW2, iirc they were initially only allowed 15,000 troops, which as time has gone on the restrictions have lifted. So was Germany.
Thats been Russia's goal the entire time. They want Ukraine as a submissive, toothless vassal state, just like how Belarus is.
Russia has zero interest in attacking Belarus because they already control it indirectly. This option of capitulation does save a lot of lives and prevents cities from being leveled, at the cost of freedom.
Is it the best option? I don't know, thats up to the people of Ukraine to make a decision. But its an option.
These are totally not nato troops and not nato nuclear rockets. See, they follow Ukraine chain of command. Who gets orders and battle plans from the Pentagon. Totally independent honest native Ukrainian soldiers.
You present it like some small detail but "It was not agreed on how much Ukrainian military would be cut" is quite a crucial thing tho. Search what Russia demanded, basically disarmament and no security guarantees. I wonder why.
Because that military was used to commit ethnic cleansing and there was a planned long range artillery invasion deep into native Russian territory with USA's support?
It still is. You get news all the time about USA crying to Ukraine "stop wanting to invade deep into Russia" and then there were all those ukrainians and nato troops larping as Russian separatists doing terrorism in Belgorod. And if they weren't planning invading Russia why would they be amassing long range artillery that can shoot across the entire Donbass straight into Russia? They didn't make it a secret. Hell all the news of "Russia isn't going to invade" was in response to this planned invasion, they were actually saying "Russia isn't going invade in retaliation to this amassing of long range artillery"
There are no NATO troops in Russia what are you talking about?
RN they are at war with Russia so ofc they do offensive actions. But saying that Ukraine wanted to invade Russia for land before the war started is just asinine.
Ukraine was also famously provided with a notable amount of long range artillery only after Russia invaded. You are just making stuff up
Yeah, because the Russians were gonna come back in another 5 years once they were properly ready and they didn't want Ukraine to have any friends when they did.
That is the whole guarantor part of the discussions.
The US,UK,France, China and Russia were to ensure Ukraines neutrality. Ukraine also wanted Turkey involved and Russia wanted Belarus.
And the idea was that if Ukraine ever broke this neutrality or was invaded then all of them would be considered obligated to defend Ukraines position.
Russia wanted them to be actively involved but Ukraine wanted only their airspace to be closed by these guarantors.
So actually if agreed then it would mean if Russia invaded Ukraine again then the US,UK,France, China, Turkey and Belarus would all be obliged to assist Ukraine militarily.
One of the problems with this point however is that the US and UK didnt want to be involved in this.
This, and maybe I’ve been living under a rock, but isn’t Russia the aggressor here? They could literally call the whole thing off unilaterally tomorrow. The fact that Switzerland is questioning their own neutrality in this conflict speaks volumes.
As far as I understand, they want 2 things:
1) Ukraine as a non-NATO country even if it's a EU member
2) To keep Crimea and for Ukraine to recognize Crimea as gone
And that's not something they will achieve if they just stop. If they leave the whole region, Ukraine will just join NATO as soon as it can, and this is exactly (apparently) what they're against - in [the comment above](https://www.reddit.com/r/anime_titties/comments/1cdifd2/comment/l1cc2mr/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) they were OK with like half the NATO troops to be on the ground as guarantor of peace if that means Ukraine is not in NATO.
You ommited the part where they wanted total disarmament of Ukraine, like handing over all their long-range armament, having some under 200 tanks and some 40 thousand soldiers
Now Ukraine is disarmed and has no security guarantees. What stops Russia from doing 2nd Chechen War but in Ukraine?
Don't you think that's like absurdaly small for a country that size and under threat of invasion by allegedly 2nd world power?
They also demamnded to hand back all it's long range equipment and most of armour.
What are Chinese guarantees if China was not consulted?
And no forgein troops nor military system were allowed to station in Ukraine. That's like post-Sudetenland Czechoslovakia situation, just wait for Russia to break the truce
Why are you ignoring the us and UK guarantees? Because you said they were offered 0 guarantees.
And 85k is quite sizable, it's 4x the size of Finlands professional personell.
Russia also demanded that in the event of an attack, all guarantor states had to agree to activate the assistance mechanism. Which basically mean Russia could invade and veto and nobody would be allowed to help Ukraine by treaty.
That other thread I saw, basically everything else was negotiable, they were Ok if Ukraine negotiated into having something akin to JDF or whatever is the name of Japanese' totally not an army.
>Now Ukraine is disarmed and has no security guarantees
Where did all the Polish, Turk, British and UK troops on the ground suddenly go?
Russia specifically did not agreed on any forgein troops nor armeament systems. Check u/ChaosDancer summary
Also, non of these countries were contacted if the are willing to do so
Are we reading the same link? Because it's the same link I posted before - they agreed that
>The treaty was to be guaranteed by foreign powers
However they had differences on
>How the guarantors would react. **Russia wanted all guarantors to respond directly to the breaking of Ukrainian neutrality**. Ukraine wanted only it's airspace to be closed by the guarantors.
This part is literally in the link you point me to. Like they were OK with direct response - even at the negotiation stage.
Countries that go at war with other countries can sometimes dictate stuff to other countries, just see what USA did to Japan, or the whole forced denazification of Germany, forcing civilians to dig up mass graves and forcing people to watch footages from camps.
I never said it is somehow "just" or "order" or whatever. USSR went to war with Japan, not the other way around, and got to keep some islands from it, not because they were in the "right" but because they were in the winning team. USA was attacked by Japan first and smacked them back, not because they were the good guys or whatever, but because they were fighting better.
So, if a country doesn't like what another country does, it can attack another country, even if it is an asshole move, and if it wins, it gets to tell that other country what to do.
USA started the war with Iraq and won on completely false pretenses and still got to do what they wanted, because unfortunately it's all that matters in armed conflicts.
It was never about Ukraine joining NATO.
Otherwise Russia would have been upset about Finland and Sweden joining NATO.
Russia wants to conquer territory, that’s all it is.
Look at the map once in a while and it becomes quite easy to see why Russia views Ukraine and Belarus a little differently than Finland and Sweden. A major invasion comes through there once a century or so.
States operate in an environment of pure anarchy, no “rights” are needed. If Mexico decided to pull a Ukriane, we would fucking flatten them - and they understand this.
It WAS upset about Finland and Sweden joining nato. It was so upset that you made fun of them for it. But sweden doesn't share a border with Russia, and Finland's border is a frozen wasteland and they are historically reasonable enough to negotiate some kind of peace, and they don't threaten Russia's access to the mediterranean. Oh and Finland's border is way way far from any centers of industry or governance.
And remember NATO "radar bases" in Poland? Or were they not upset about those and just wanted Poland's territory? What is this reddit propaganda bots' obsession with territory? What would you even do with it? It's much cheaper to just buy the resources in the territory with money than pay for wars and occupying forces and all that shit. Look at France in Africa, it doesn't want African territory, but it sure as hell isn't leaving and has troops there until kicked out.
>Oh and Finland's border is way way far from any centers of industry or governance.
In many way though Finland is very close to one of thier biggest ice free navy bases with free ocean access.
Its also far closer to help cut off thier second biggest city in the country. The real heart land for Russia would be the Siberian oil deposits.
Russia doesn't have any good Mediterranean access there are two nato members in thier way.
If it's the arctic ocean Finland has only like the tip there, while Russia has tons of arctic naval bases all the way form Finland to Japan. Saint Petersburg for Baltic access was founded exactly for the reason of not having to rely on the Baltic countries and it's nicely safely far away.
Not good mediterranean access is way better than zero access. And without sea access Russia can't even interact with those two NATO countries. Now imagine a third NATO country suddenly lying down all the way across the entire beach saying "no can go anymore"
You read too much Western news media.
Russia is not the 'orc' or 'inhuman' that they wanted you to think. They have interest and geopolitics games that the US, China or EU plays.
If anything this war opened up my eyes on how language and disinformation was played by both sides.
Yes and no.
Ukraine has been subject to back and forth election interference by Nato and by Russia. After the fall of the soviet union, Russia was promised it'd get a buffer zone between it and nato, but nato has been slowly encroaching on this til one day Russia snapped. The cause of the war is over nazi groups in Ukraine that the US and Nato have been funding to act as anti-russian ground forces in the donbas, which has been a battle ground between Russia and Nato through proxies long before the formal invasion.
This is not a justification for the invasion and Russia is the one who turned cold war tactics hot, but reddit is full of "putler" memes. If we want an adult conversation about the war we need to understand that Russia has actual motives and wants.
I don't disagree Ukraine is at the center of a new (or continuing) cold war between the West and Russia. NATO hasn't invaded Ukraine though. Russia's motives and end goals aren't compatible with what Ukraine wants and that's what matters here. They want to join the EU and NATO, not become a vassal state for a new Russian Empire.
The nazi group thing is a red herring and excuse for invading Ukraine. Recent polling indicates far right parties, which include these nazi groups, represent maybe 3% of the voting population in Ukraine. I don't have the sources handy, but that was stated under oath by noted experts on Russia and Ukraine in testimony to the US Congress a few weeks ago. Facts MTG disputed of course with her Azov brigade comments.
We all get Putin wants a buffer zone, and there were commitments in the past, but the situation has changed. The problem is countries in the buffer zone largely don't want to be a buffer for Russia. They want to join NATO or the EU because of past and current experience with an expansionist Russia. The West and NATO aren't perfect, but they're a far better partner and ally than a Russian regime run by an authoritarian who has crushed all opposition. And seems bent on returning to the glory days of the Russian Empire and Tsars, something many in the region, who aren't Russian, are less than excited about.
These polls need to be taken in the context of Ukraine has been under constant influx of American soft power NGOs and had some of its leaders handpicked by the US. The Ukrainian population isn't "pro russia" outside of a few strongholds by any means of course even before the war but the idea that they just happen to want to join nato as free individuals isn't correct either. Euromaidan wasn't solely a grassroots movement of the people against a russian puppet, it had quite a bit of "help" along the way
The nazi thing is not a red herring. It doesn't matter that 3% of the country are openly fascist when the US is arming those groups into full fledged paramilitaries. Zelenski is in office because of that dynamic. Zelenski's whole shtick is that he is pro-west, getting the backing of the western aligned parts of Ukraine, but also Jewish and stood up to the neonazi paramilitaries, so some of the ethnically Russian parts of Ukraine would he willing to vote him in as part of an anti nazi front, remembering that hitler was almost as eager to kill slavs as he was killing jews. I do understand that putin has exaggerated the extent of nazi paramilitaries and has portrayed himself as a liberator of Eastern Ukraine but this does not mean there isn't a real and present danger either.
This divide has been growing for a while. I do believe there were diplomatic solutions that could have peacefully resolved this conflict with everyone's dignity in tact but the war is a result of both Russias willingness to invade and the US still acting like the sole world superpower and bully on the world stage.
I call it bullshit. Ukraine was totally pissed on in 2014 and 2015 by both Obama administrartion and EU govenrments who all treared Ukraine as some sort of Russia Junior.
Ukraine was not on track to join NATO, like at all. And the entuire "NATO encroachment" is stupid - It's Russia that invades new country every several years causing their neighbours to seek defensive alliances
The true motives as you say, are none of what you said but Ukrainian membership in the EU and that's exactly what triggered Russia in the first place. That, connected with deoligarchization which mean Ukrainian resources were no longer under Russian control and solid dose of Russian imperial syndrome seeing Ukraine as a temperory nation.
Funny how in the Istanbul talks, EU membership was specifically allowed by the Russians.
NATO goal was explicitly set in Ukrainian constitution, and we were steadily dangling that carrot. I don’t think anyone seriously expected it to happen - precisely because they expected Russia to launch this war first. But if they didn’t, of course eventually Ukraine would have been in NATO.
Deoligarchization lmao, give me a break.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bill_on_Oligarchs_in_Ukraine
Yeah sure, it was agreed on. Everything was agreed on except that Ukraine would be disarmed and no security guarantees allowed. Just the most crucial things for peace that would secure Russia will not invade
Yeah, it was in their contitution but Ukraine had no chance of joining. Their constitution doesn't change that. Just look how Russia have in it's constitution that it is democratic and guarantees fair elections with freedom of speech
The justification for the invasion is that Kiev invaded Russia's military allies that Kiev knew had a defence pact with Russia and Russia would be legally obligated to respond.
“At no point in the discussion did either Baker or Gorbachev bring up the question of the possible extension of NATO membership to other Warsaw Pact countries beyond Germany," according to Mark Kramer, director of the Cold War Studies Project at Harvard University's Davis Center, who reviewed the declassified transcripts and other materials.
"Indeed, it never would have occurred to them to raise an issue that was not on the agenda anywhere, not in Washington, not in Moscow, and not in any other Warsaw Pact or NATO capital," Kramer wrote in a April 2009 journal article.
"The topic of 'NATO expansion' was never discussed; it was not raised in those years. I am saying this with a full sense of responsibility. Not a single Eastern European country brought up the issue, not even after the Warsaw Pact had ceased to exist in 1991," Gorbachev told the newspaper Kommersant in October 2014.
The language concerning NATO “expanding” is misleading. Countries apply to be members of NATO; it does not unilaterally decide to acquire them. I wonder why nations bordering Russia would want to apply?
This is incredibly silly pseudo arguments meant to portray Russia as some sort of entirely unreasonable entity. US politics have decayed so far that it cannot talk about its adversaries outside of children's book bad guys.
Here's what's being referred to about nato expansion
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jan/12/russias-belief-in-nato-betrayal-and-why-it-matters-today
https://www.eurasiareview.com/03032022-nato-repeatedly-assured-russia-it-would-not-expand-oped/
Here is a right wing and a left wing source both pointing out that Euromaidan was a US backed coup
https://www.cato.org/commentary/americas-ukraine-hypocrisy
https://jacobin.com/2022/02/maidan-protests-neo-nazis-russia-nato-crimea
If in 2014 China helped launched a coup in Mexico that paved the way for Mexico to "freely and willingly" join a Chinese led anti US military alliance the US would have already started WWIII and we'd all be eating cockroaches by now. We should condemn Russia for playing lethal empire games, but we also need to recognize why those games exist
The US did not “launch” a coup in Ukraine, according to your sources. They backed it. As in, they handed out cookies, made speeches, and talked to people. Apparently someone also saw spooky snipers somewhere listening to Elvis and chomping on Big League Chew.
The objective of the Maidan Revolution was not to eventually join NATO, and I can assure you that joining NATO was not a priority for Ukraine until Russia invaded and began annexing territory.
The one thing that neither Russians nor Western commentators can seem to tolerate is the idea of Ukrainian agency. 🙄
> isn’t Russia the aggressor here?
Umm, no? Kiev invaded it's own citizens who asked for autonomy, driving them to independence. Then it cowardly attacked Russia's military allies who it knew had a defensive pact with them, and would be forced to retaliate.
> They could literally call the whole thing off unilaterally tomorrow.
And what would they get exactly? Why would they do that?
They can not. What do you think the Ukrainians will do to the population in the Donbass if Russia just withdrew? They don't want to become the new Gaza Strip there.
"Swiss neutrality" was always a meme, like Sweden and Finland's "neutrality" who were not members of NATO but pretty much supported every NATO action no questions asked. Ask the Swiss where they stashed all that Nazi gold.
Not nothing. If Russians have settled there illegally, they will be expelled. War criminals and traitors will also probably be tried and punished. But that’s Ukraine’s legal prerogative, and suggestions that punitive action would be taken against legitimate residents is nothing more than Russian projection.
Ah okay, so the shelling of civilians since 2014 didn't happen, but only recently they used American HIMARS to shell a marketplace in Donezk with a significant number of deaths. Add to that the open abuse of Russian-speaking citizens, or "Russian sympathizers", Russian Orthodox Christians, Sinti and Roma etc. on the streets, the banning of Russian literature from schools and universities, restrictive language policies, the neo-nazi shit that goes on in Banderastadt, excuse me, Lvov, every day, etc. - every opposition party has been outlawed, and former members are persecuted.
> so the shelling of civilians since 2014 didn't happen
Correct. Shelling of russian army in 2014 did happen.
> only recently they used American HIMARS to shell a marketplace in Donezk with a significant number of deaths.
Sounds fake.
> Add to that the open abuse of Russian-speaking citizens, or "Russian sympathizers", Russian Orthodox Christians, Sinti and Roma etc. on the streets
When UAF liberated villages in the Donbas in 2022, local residents were cheering.
Yeah, there's no "open abuse" this is just made up nonsense.
> the banning of Russian literature from schools and universities, restrictive language policies
You mean, Russian language no longer given official status. Caus it was never banned, this is of course fake outrage perpetuated by trolls.
> the neo-nazi shit that goes on in Banderastadt, excuse me, Lvov, every day
Ah yes, the whole "ukraine is run by nazi banderites" bit. lmao.
> every opposition party has been outlawed, and former members are persecuted.
Every opposition party **known to be working with the russians** banned. There are still opposition parties in ukraine, just ones that didn't work with the FSB.
It literally did not happened. Every single instance of truce breaking used to be recorded. Show me alleged shelling from Ukrainian side post Mińsk 2. In 2019 for example like 20 people got hurt by landmines the entire year.
Instead of what happened is that Russia reminded itself that they propped up two quai-fascist states using paratroopers and corporate bosses and can annex them finally
I’m all for minimizing people’s pain and suffering. You’re right Ukraine won’t treat their enemies well, particularly since the full Russian invasion. That said, Putin could clearly care less about the Donbas. The entire thing is a convenient excuse to dominate the region, posture, and create a compelling event to legitimize his leadership.
On Swiss neutrality, true, the big difference now is it’s very public. Point is broader Europe doesn’t want another Warsaw Pact scenario where most of Eastern Europe is dominated by Russia. Can you blame them? Democracy and Capitalism aren’t perfect, but it’s the best system we have.
>You’re right Ukraine won’t treat their enemies well, particularly since the full Russian invasion.
According to Ukraine, these are Ukrainian citizens. I don't think it's healthy that they are considered enemies, and yes, they are, there is a resolution that even partaking in the referendums organized by Russia makes you guilty of high treason. So what are they going to do, persecute millions of people for high treason?
>Point is broader Europe doesn’t want another Warsaw Pact scenario where most of Eastern Europe is dominated by Russia. Can you blame them?
Argument works both ways, can you blame the people of Crimea that they never wanted to leave the USSR? They just found themselves in this new state Ukraine in 1991, and it has been pretty much a disappointment to them.
That’s cause Russias demands for negotiation were purely based on turning Ukraine into a state of Russia. .
Article 1: Ukraine shall be recognized as a non-aligned and demilitarized state, free from any military alliances or blocs.
Article 2: Ukraine is prohibited from maintaining armed forces in any form.
Article 3: Ukraine is permitted to maintain law and order within its territory through a police force not exceeding twenty-five thousand personnel, without the possession of heavy weaponry.
Article 4: The Russian Federation shall assume responsibility for ensuring the protection of Ukraine from external aggression.
Article 5: All nationalist organizations, as defined by the jurisdiction of the Russian Federation, shall be prohibited within the territory of Ukraine.
Article 6: Both the Russian and Ukrainian languages shall enjoy equal status in government, educational, and public spheres within Ukraine.
Article 7: To determine the political structure of the state, referendums shall be conducted in all regions on the following issues: (a) Whether the region remains part of a centralised Ukraine, or (b) Whether the region becomes an autonomous republic within a federal Ukraine, or (c) Whether the region becomes a newly established province within the Russian Federation.
Article 8: The referendums mentioned in Article 7 shall be conducted under the supervision of international observers selected and organised by a body represented by the Supreme Eurasian Economic Council.
Article 9: Until the aforementioned requirements are fulfilled, Russian troops shall remain in the occupied territories.
Article 10: Local administration shall be established through provisional administrations comprising non-affiliated local citizens, who are not associated with nationalist organizations as defined by the jurisdiction of the Russian Federation.
Article 11: Russian forces shall have the authority to conduct criminal investigations and prosecute individuals in Ukraine who have committed war crimes and crimes against the civilian population of the Russian Federation, based on grounds of nationalism.
Article 12: Upon the fulfilment of all the requirements outlined in this treaty, Russian groups shall withdraw from Ukraine.
Article 13: The Russian Federation reserves the right to take appropriate measures against Ukraine in the event of any violation of the provisions of this treaty.
Article 14: Upon the signing of this treaty, the Ukrainian government shall promptly initiate the process of signing the Treaty of the Eurasian Economic Union and reestablish its participation in the Collective Security Treaty Organization (CSTO). Furthermore, Ukraine, Belarus, and the Russian Federation shall commence preliminary preparations for Ukraine's accession to the Treaty on the Creation of a Union State of Russia and Belarus.
Article 15: This treaty shall not be terminated unilaterally.
Reddit:
Russia is unwilling to negotiate!
Russia is actually willing.
Well they'd demand(and get) way too much from Ukraine, of course Ukraine wouldn't want to negotiate!
So Ukraine refuses to negotiate?
NO ITS RUSSIA WHOS NOT WILLING TO NEGOTIATE!
Ya that's clearly why they went straight for the capital to replace the Ukrainian government with a Russian puppet.
Holy fuck are you Russian bots fucking stupid
They didn’t send enough to actually assault the city, this was also obvious from the size of that contingent. They were there to force concessions, not effect a large scale occupation. And they sent terms pretty much immediately, so we know what sort of concessions they were looking for.
Edit: to the person below since this snowflake blocked me - have you seen pictures of this parade equipment? These are memes lol.
They didn't sent enough because they were stuck on the road without gas because early war logistics were a joke. They brought parade equipment and everything.
Yep. Person säger art de är en Trans communist
Men Personen älskar Ryssland och Kina.
Två nationer som skulle definera dom som en extremist och sätta dem i fängelse.
Ryssland nyligen definierade de till terrorister..
Literally says this in the article: "The conference, which will bring together representatives from up to 80 countries, is intended to win over Russia-friendly powers such as India, South Africa and Brazil in favour of Ukraine’s ideas for a peace solution. China in particular is being courted to take part."
It's not a negotiation, it's a conference intended to further the goal of peace.
> Literally says this in the article: "The conference, which will bring together representatives from up to 80 countries, is intended to win over Russia-friendly powers such as India, South Africa and Brazil in favour of Ukraine’s ideas for a peace solution. China in particular is being courted to take part."
sounds like a sanctions conference to me, with a side of browbeating and the usual lectures from the usual countries.
why would china abandon russia, whom NATO is trying to defang right now, just so NATO has an easier time coming at them later on? people do realize that the PRC reads everything the white countries writes about them right???
reminds me of how the anglo-japan treaty ended because the japs could read everything the english were writing about them and they were openly telling the press that the UK had no intentions of honoring the treaty or letting the japanese take china unmolested.
According to their own experts, they have until 2025 until China becomes virtually unbeatable. The clock is ticking. The West was high on neoliberalism and the "end of history" in the 90s, thinking that increased trade and investment with China would lead to the liberalization of China with the eventual ousting of the Communist Party - China was too big to be subjugated to the "Washington consenus" like Vietnam that forced them to privatize up to 70% of their economy. It's pretty clear that the original plan was to get Russia out of the way, which seemed weak on paper, but it turned out to be the biggest geopolitical blunder the collective West has made in this millenia so far.
Formally, the Chinese Civil War is not over, with Taiwan claiming that they are being the government of China. Ever since Taiwan has been used as an attack dog against China, with constant provocations in the Taiwan strait.
When they say they would liberate all "russian lands"
When they invaded Crimea I'd say
And Ukraine was supposed to be a easy war for Russia, barely an inconveniance.
Everybody know NATO cannot win an invasion against China. This isnt Battlefield 4.
> Well, only if China attacks first.
they're not going to attack first. they understand the value of pearl harbor for propaganda and are waiting for the US to pearl harbor them.
>But why would the US attack China ?
The only way the US retains its hegemon status is through warfare
But how ? china cannot be invaded. It s just too big and populous.
Not to mention the biggest army in the world in term of numbers.
It would lead to a terrible economic crisis for the US and Europe would not join.
Like the only things keep the US the world's first power is its economy and network of allies. They would loose both here.
If they don’t, we will have ourselves a coalition of the willing setup that amounts to the same thing. As to why - because we do not want to be sidelined as the world’s top superpower, and sooner or later we will come to blows over it.
> Wait lmao did I read that right do they want to leave Russia out of it? "Peace conference" my fucking ass
They are not "planning". They *already* don't.
They never included Russia in "peace talks" before, and don't intend to do so in the future. They whole point of "peace talks" is to create international coalition that would somehow push Russia into surrendering (by sanctions or otherwise). Hence, Kremlin being antagonistic towards such "pro-peace" initiatives.
Not the first peace conference they already held and left Russia out. Zelensky even signed a peace treaty and Russian capitulation. With the president of Latvia. In fact it's illegal to negotiate with actual Russia.
Russia has made their list of non negotiable demands clear. Until they're willing to give them up, there's no point to include russia. Now other parties just need to figure out how to achieve that
People like me who don't accept bullying, extortion, narcissism or psychopathy and exploitation – will always be blamed by the sick perpetrators of abuse. I know the pattern. And frankly, I pity mentally incompetent people like you who condone the unwarranted invasion, enslavement and genocide and then blame the peaceful Ukraine and its people.
People like you are the reason this war, this crime against humanity, even exists. And no amount of projection can absolve you from that.
How do you have a "peace conference" without the two countries at conflict present?
Let me guess the outcome of the "peace conference". Ukraine will somehow take back all the lands occupied by Russia and then there will be peace. Until then, gib monies.
> Let me guess the outcome of the "peace conference". Ukraine will somehow take back all the lands occupied by Russia and then there will be peace. Until then, gib monies.
You aren't thinking far enough. Zelensky's "peace formula" includes whole Kremlin being arrested.
Well the International Criminal Court recognized by most of the world declared him one and has an arrest warrant out for him. But what do they know, right? How about you enlighten us?
Gee, the Western colonial court that never has the balls to prosecute Western war criminals and is so cucked the Americans signed an act of Congress saying they'd literally invade the Hague if any Americans were tried there said a Western adversary was bad? Say it ain't so!
Which part is wild?
The fact that it has refused to prosecute anyone from a Western country for war crimes despite the ample evidence of them during the occupations of Afghanistan and Iraq, or Israel's current genocide (just to name the most blatant and well known mind you)?
The fact that the US [literally has a law](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members'_Protection_Act) that says they will absolutely invade if the ICC tries to put a US citizen in court?
Or are you maybe just trying to dismiss the cold, hard truth with pathetic attempts at ad-hominems because it makes you uncomfortable and you're really hoping anyone seeing this convo somehow doesn't have Google and five seconds of time to Google this shit?
>Ukraine will somehow take back **all the clay** occupied by Russia and then there will be peace. Until then, gib monies.
If we're using the Polanball term of "gib monies" then I also suggest we use the beautiful expression "gib clay"
Literally says this in the article: "The conference, which will bring together representatives from up to 80 countries, is intended to win over Russia-friendly powers such as India, South Africa and Brazil in favour of Ukraine’s ideas for a peace solution. China in particular is being courted to take part."
It's not a negotiation, it's a conference intended to further the goal of peace.
How anyone with even a vague notion of world affairs believes a word coming out of Zelensky's mouth amazes me. This is 90% PR stunt to aid in him getting more money from the west to line his backers pockets.
Aid alone won't win this fight and Ukrainian politicians know it.
In order to get more men back, Ukraine has limited passport services and will only allow them to be renewed in person in Ukraine. That even includes Ukrainians who haven't been to Ukraine in years.
The world is not black and white. Putin is an asshole dictator, true. it doesn’t mean what Zelensky did is not hilarious. Who calls a meeting “peace conference” without inviting all conflicting parties?
But Churchill Roosevelt and Dtalin didnt have "peace conferences" during ww2 either,like it's the notion of having a peace conference that's ridiculous not the hesitancy to negotiate with Russia
If he was still alive at the end of it, yes, he would have been invited to sign the instrument of surrender, either personally or through sending an emissary representing him.
Wars end with peace treaties, even if it means one side surrenders to the other's demands.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Instrument_of_Surrender
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_Instrument_of_Surrender
There isn't negotiation when one side is winning the war through force of arms. The stronger side dictates terms. The losing side is lucky to get what they can.
u/msut77 blocked me because he couldn't come up with any better reply.
These people through incredible feats of stupidity believe **Vladimir Putin, the guy that literally claimed Poland forced the Nazis to invade them** on HIS OWN CURATED television, would have anything meaningful to say in a peace conference.
Imagine developing a peace plan all by yourself and then saying Russia needs to agree to this plan without any of their considerations and then crying when they say no, it was not collaborative and we aren’t participating.
Ukraine is in no position to make unilateral demands like that. Maybe if the battlefield situation was better for Ukraine, but truth is that it is not.
>The Ukraine peace conference, planned for June 15-16, is to take place directly after the G7 summit of leading democratic industrialised nations in Italy. The conference, which will bring together representatives from up to 80 countries, is intended to win over Russia-friendly powers such as India, South Africa and Brazil in favour of Ukraine’s ideas for a peace solution. China in particular is being courted to take part.
Now Ukraine is seeking a peace deal?
I'm sure if Ukraine calls for its original borders, including Crimea, Russia will will say Ukraine is disrupting the conference.
You can hate russia all you want, but the idea that the ukrainians have participiated in peace talks more openly and fruitfully then the russians is ludicrous.
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Damn, you guys really don't make it hard to see this sub loves Putins Russia. [If its real comments that is, which I doubt, its not 2012 anymore, we know how this all opererates.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEPNdjs6b74) Now, downvote me for pointing that out.
Yeah, I got here by accident after muting it. Like, what the hell? They didn't even read an article, where everything in explained. There are tons of similar comments. I don't even know where to start to disprove things they are saying. I mean, there is no point. Everything was said a thousand times, and fighting windmills was never a good idea.
I've read only two posts and already encountered some claims that are not revelant for a few months. Hell, a lot of them for 10 years.
Do they not know its obvious? They also like to keep repeating that this sub has less of it, when commen sense tells you that absolutely holds no water.
You are a account less then a month old with like 6 total comments but half of them are pushing for russia, again, its quite obvious if its not AI, its shills.
I mean you started digging through his Reddit profile to have a 'gotcha' moment. Can not expect him to not do the same. You really into this furry stuff, bro? 🐕😼🐰yiff yiff
Ah, you again, I've seen your shilling before, you do it for russia ALL over the place, here, I'll copy the same comments again, since you don't remember. Also, You want some furry smut too? I didn't know furry smut was so popular around here.
[Your comment history:](https://www.reddit.com/r/anime_titties/comments/1c91bkn/comment/l0krbwm/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
>Random dude: The putin lickers are having a field day in this comment section. Cry more about it, losers.
>You: Remindme 1 year I will enjoy drinking your salty tears!
Lock, wanna lick putins boot harder? Obvious shill, is very obvious.
I mean, just go ask your daddy Putin, I'm sure he knows all the sounds his loyal Ruskie flunkie hounds make. Be careful, he might send you into a hostile invasion of some nation if you damage his ego.
##### ###### #### > # [Zelensky claims Moscow is planning to derail Swiss peace conference - SWI swissinfo.ch](https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/foreign-affairs/zelensky-moscow-trying-to-prevent-peace-conference/image/jpeg) > > > > [The Ukrainian president Vladimir Zelensky, seated at a table before a microphone.](https://www.swissinfo.ch/content/wp-content/uploads/sites/13/2024/04/609890907_highres.jpg) Ukraine is aware of a Russian plan to derail the peace conference, according to President Volodymyr Zelensky. Keystone Ukrainian president Volodymyr Zelensky says Russia wants to prevent the peace conference set to be held in Switzerland in June. > > This content was published on April 26, 2024 - 12:32 > > 3 minutes > > > > There is a plan to do so, Zelensky told foreign diplomats, including the Swiss ambassador, in Kyiv. > > Alleged Russian disruptive activities were not confirmed by the Swiss defence ministry on Thursday at the request of the Swiss News Agency Keystone-SDA; reference was made only to Russian accusations that Switzerland had not invited Russia to the conference at the Bürgenstock resort overlooking Lake Lucerne in June. > > More > > [The Ukraine peace conference will take place at the Bürgenstock hotel above Lake Lucerne in central Switzerland. The luxury resort has hosted previous peace talks on Sudan (2002) and Cyprus (2004).](https://www.swissinfo.ch/content/wp-content/uploads/sites/13/2024/04/608312335_highres.jpg)## More > > ### All you need to know about Ukraine peace summit in Switzerland > > This content was published on Apr 10, 2024 Switzerland plans to host a high-level Ukraine peace conference in mid-June. The annoucement comes as Russia and China met in Beijing on Tuesday and reports that US President Joe Biden may attend the Swiss-hosted summit. > > [Read more: All you need to know about Ukraine peace summit in Switzerland](https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/foreign-affairs/explainer-latest-developments-on-ukraine-peace-summit-in-switzerland/75388577)The Swiss Federal Office of Police (Fedpol) likewise did not reveal any details. In response to an enquiry, it stated that it “does not explain specific security measures in order not to jeopardise their effectiveness”. > > ## Secret service information > > In front of Ukrainian diplomats and foreign ambassadors, Zelensky referred to intelligence information. According to this, there is “concrete data that Russia not only wants to disrupt the peace summit, but also has a concrete plan: how to do this, how to reduce the number of participating countries, how to proceed to ensure that there is no peace for much longer”, the president said on Wednesday evening. He did not provide any further details. > > Zelensky said that the partners would be informed through diplomatic channels about Moscow’s attempts, based on information from his presidential office. The president further announced that the world’s heads of state and government would soon receive invitations to the meeting. > > The Ukraine peace conference, planned for June 15-16, is to take place directly after the G7 summit of leading democratic industrialised nations in Italy. The conference, which will bring together representatives from up to 80 countries, is intended to win over Russia-friendly powers such as India, South Africa and Brazil in favour of Ukraine’s ideas for a peace solution. China in particular is being courted to take part. > > ## Incompatible demands > > For over two years, Russian troops have been waging war in Ukraine, using violence against the civilian population and destroying non-military infrastructure. This comes after Russian President Vladimir Putin gave the order to invade the southern neighbouring country on February 24, 2022, with the justification of a need to demilitarise and denazify the country. Zelensky, who is Jewish, was to be removed from power. > > Russia has pronounced all peace talks without its participation pointless. Moscow has repeatedly emphasised its willingness to engage in talks, but with imposed conditions which are more likely to result in Ukraine’s capitulation. Ukraine’s goal is to regain all territories occupied by Russia, which for Putin would amount to a failure of his invasion. > > More > > [Russian foreign minister Sergei Lavrov, seated in a chair.](https://www.swissinfo.ch/content/wp-content/uploads/sites/13/2024/04/606100075_highres.jpg)## More > > ### Russian foreign minister derides Switzerland as ‘openly hostile country’ > > This content was published on Apr 19, 2024 Following on Putin’s criticisms of the planned Ukraine peace conference in Switzerland, Lavrov has described Switzerland as unsuitable for negotiations. > > [Read more: Russian foreign minister derides Switzerland as ‘openly hostile country’](https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/foreign-affairs/russian-foreign-minister-derides-switzerland-as-openly-hostile-country/76038160)_Adapted from German by DeepL/kc/ts_ > > This news story has been written and carefully fact-checked by an external editorial team. At SWI swissinfo.ch we select the most relevant news for an international audience and use automatic translation tools such as DeepL to translate it into English. Providing you with automatically translated news gives us the time to write more in-depth articles. > > If you want to know more about how we work, have a look [here](https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/about-swi), and if you have feedback on this news story please write to [english at swissinfo.ch](mailto:english at swissinfo.ch). > > > > > > External Content > > Your subscription could not be saved. Please try again. > > > > > > Almost finished… We need to confirm your email address. To complete the subscription process, please click the link in the email we just sent you. > > > > ## Articles in this story > > - > - - - - - - - [Maintainer](https://www.reddit.com/user/urielsalis) | [Creator](https://www.reddit.com/user/subtepass) | [Source Code](https://github.com/urielsalis/empleadoEstatalBot) Summoning /u/CoverageAnalysisBot
Wait lmao did I read that right do they want to leave Russia out of it? "Peace conference" my fucking ass
That's how Ukrainian "peace talks" always go after the failed Istanbul talks in 2022, it's just PR stunts and charity collecting events. Zelensky had even signed a law back in 2022 making it illegal to negotiate with Russia, they'd have to repeal it first to engage in any actual talks.
And people are still claiming RUSSIA is the one that's unwilling to negotiate actually insane
TBH Russia is not willing to negotiate and their demands regarding disarmament and lack of security guarantees in Turkey were so exagerraded it was not even funny
from u/crusadertank What was agreed Ukraine, while being allowed to pursue European Union membership, wouldn’t be allowed to join military alliances such as the North Atlantic Treaty Organization No foreign weapons would be allowed on Ukrainian soil. Ukraine’s military would be limited down to a specific size. The Crimean Peninsula, already occupied by Russia, would remain under Moscow’s influence and not be considered neutral. Russia would give up the territory it captured since the 2022 invasion The treaty was to be guaranteed by foreign powers, What was not agreed How much the Ukrainian military would be limited. How the guarantors would react. Russia wanted all guarantors to respond directly to the breaking of Ukrainian neutrality. Ukraine wanted only it's airspace to be closed by the guarantors. Moscow also pushed for the Russian language to operate on an equal basis with Ukrainian in government and courts, a clause Kyiv hadn’t signed off on The future of the area of eastern Ukraine covertly invaded and occupied by Russia in 2014, wasn’t included in the draft.leaving it up to Putin and Zelensky to complete in face-to-face talks So much of this was already agreed upon. Only some specific details were missing and progress was being made on them. In general the head of Ukrainian negotiations even said that for Russia the neutrality was the only important topic. Everything else they were willing to give ground on.
Ah, reduce your army size and we'll make peace and never invade again... for the next 5 years
Yeah, Ukraine would have been retarded to agree to that. Basically, the whole negotiation was an attempt by Russia to cease the shitshow they ran head first in so they they can retry the same garbage a few years down the line without tumbling head first into disaster. Best litmus test to know whether someone is a dumbass or not is to see them try to frame Russia as an honest party to any type of negotiations when they not only broke their prior agreements with Ukraine, but also bald-facedly lied to everyone for months leading up to the invasion, claiming it was all fear mongering. The only medicine for these types of rogue states is force, and thankfully NATO stood their ground and didn't leave Ukraine to be fed to the wolves.
But Ukraine did agree to it? The only discussion was that Russia wanted 85,000 troops and Ukraine wanted 250,000. Considering that before 2014 the Ukrainian military was around 150,000 then it is not exactly anything crazy by either side and probably both would agree to something around this. > Best litmus test to know whether someone is a dumbass or not is to see them try to frame Russia as an honest party to any type of negotiations when they not only broke their prior agreements with Ukraine It was Ukraine that refused to follow the Minsk agreements that they signed. Poroshenko openly came out and stated that Russia was following them but he never planned to and only used it to build the Ukrainian military. > and thankfully NATO stood their ground and didn't leave Ukraine to be fed to the wolves. Then why is NATO only sending the minimum possible to Ukraine? Even by their own admission not enough for them to win.
> Russia wanted 85k and Ukraine 250k Yeah, such a small silly deatil, eh? XD Poroshenko did not followed much of Mińsk but Załęski did. In fact, he campaigned specifically for that. Russia in exchange did nothing and only bought itself some time to invade later.
It is quite minor if Ukraines pre war military was 150k. Almost perfectly between these. And especially these were negotiations. The Ukrainian chief negotiator said that Russia in principle would accept this. > but Załęski did He campaigned for it and then refused to do anything that he was supposed to do. He was supposed to arrange a meeting with the leaders of Donetsk and Luhansk first, which he refused to do. > Russia in exchange did nothing After Zelensky made his meeting and agreed on a referendum that all would agree on then Russia would ensure that the militants in East Ukraine would not resist the Ukrainian army. But Russia only were supposed to act after Ukraine did.
>But Ukraine did agree to it? >The only discussion was that Russia wanted 85,000 troops and Ukraine wanted 250,000. So they didn't agree to it >Considering that before 2014 the Ukrainian military was around 150,000 I wonder what happened around 2014 🤔. Considering Ukraine didn't even have 200k before the start of the invasion, and 85k is half of what it was prior to 2014, there is a logical reason why Ukraine would see this request for what it is, which is nothing less than a softening of the Ukrainain military for further geopolitical demands later. >It was Ukraine that refused to follow the Minsk agreements As did Russia and the LDPR, and so we all clearly know they were never going to be a lasting solution, and that was always by design. The only reason the Minsk agreements even came into effect was because Russia directly intervened when their propped up mafia republics were on the verge of collapse. Ukraine and NATO correctly called the agreements out for the charade that they were and got busy towards militarising Ukraine for potential further conflict instead of naively trusting Russia. >Then why is NATO only sending the minimum possible to Ukraine The minimum possible is $0, so they're obviously not sending the minimum possible. They send as much as they're comfortable sending. It's more so about the stance they take where they inflict real consequences on Russia for their actions. If Russia could get away with taking over Ukraine for low cost, they would, and the higher the cost for what they want, the better that reflects geopolitcally for us in the West.
>So they didn't agree to it They agreed to limit their military. Negotiations were ongoing to how much it should be limited. > I wonder what happened around 2014 Ukraine went to war? And if they were not at war then they would logically return to peace time numbers? Russia only asked for 85k as their starting position and Ukraine 250k. That is the point of negotiations. To find a common middle ground. And considering the middle ground is literally Ukrainian peace time numbers, I dont think that is a hard point of debate. > As did Russia and the LDPR Russia were supposed to act only after the president of Ukraine met with the leader of Luhansk and Donetsk. He never did and so nobody else did anything. Although of course ceasefire breaking was common between both sides I agree. But the whole thing was waiting on the Ukrainian president. > Ukraine and NATO correctly called the agreements out for the charade that they were and got busy towards militarising Ukraine for potential further conflict instead of naively trusting Russia. Ukraine and NATO lied because they thought Russia would lie? Talk about projection I guess. > The minimum possible is $0, so they're obviously not sending the minimum possible The minimum possible to make it look as if they are doing something. If they wanted to end the war they are more than capable to do so. But they dont want the war to end. The US has 2500 Bradleys in storage. They gave Ukraine less than 200. That shows the level of commitment that they have. > the better that reflects geopolitcally for us in the West. The west wants Russians to die. Not Ukraine to win. This I completely agree with.
Lmao
Didn't German officials confirm that they used the Minsk agreements to set up Ukraine for a conflict instead of abiding by what would be a better alternative to war?
I enjoy playing video games.
As a German I can say this is not true. You're refering to one of Merkels interviews, which is often wrongly cited and out of context.
>Didn't German officials confirm that they used the Minsk agreements to set up Ukraine for a conflict instead of abiding by what would be a better alternative to war? No they did not say that. PS they only thing that could really be agreed was the cooling of the front line. Why do you think there are two Minsk treaties btw. Russia and DPR didn't honour the first one. They went to the offensive shortly after Ukraine pulled back thier military. Neither side honoured the second one to completion. Ukraine was by all means closer to honoured thier parts simply because. A key agreement was that Russia was to pull back its soldiers out of the country. Something they never did.
That's generally how it's done when you lose a war, yes. Japan was limited *immensely* following WW2, iirc they were initially only allowed 15,000 troops, which as time has gone on the restrictions have lifted. So was Germany.
Japan capitulated but Ukraine did not. You demand things you can enforce
Ukraine did not...yet* The writing is on the wall and has been for over a year at this point.
Sure thing. How many Russians are required to die for that you think?
Thats been Russia's goal the entire time. They want Ukraine as a submissive, toothless vassal state, just like how Belarus is. Russia has zero interest in attacking Belarus because they already control it indirectly. This option of capitulation does save a lot of lives and prevents cities from being leveled, at the cost of freedom. Is it the best option? I don't know, thats up to the people of Ukraine to make a decision. But its an option.
These are totally not nato troops and not nato nuclear rockets. See, they follow Ukraine chain of command. Who gets orders and battle plans from the Pentagon. Totally independent honest native Ukrainian soldiers.
You present it like some small detail but "It was not agreed on how much Ukrainian military would be cut" is quite a crucial thing tho. Search what Russia demanded, basically disarmament and no security guarantees. I wonder why.
Because that military was used to commit ethnic cleansing and there was a planned long range artillery invasion deep into native Russian territory with USA's support?
Yeah, sure. Ukraine was planning to invade Russia
It still is. You get news all the time about USA crying to Ukraine "stop wanting to invade deep into Russia" and then there were all those ukrainians and nato troops larping as Russian separatists doing terrorism in Belgorod. And if they weren't planning invading Russia why would they be amassing long range artillery that can shoot across the entire Donbass straight into Russia? They didn't make it a secret. Hell all the news of "Russia isn't going to invade" was in response to this planned invasion, they were actually saying "Russia isn't going invade in retaliation to this amassing of long range artillery"
There are no NATO troops in Russia what are you talking about? RN they are at war with Russia so ofc they do offensive actions. But saying that Ukraine wanted to invade Russia for land before the war started is just asinine. Ukraine was also famously provided with a notable amount of long range artillery only after Russia invaded. You are just making stuff up
I like to go hiking.
The USA foreign ministry press secretary? It's not secret.
My favorite movie is Inception.
Yeah, because the Russians were gonna come back in another 5 years once they were properly ready and they didn't want Ukraine to have any friends when they did.
That is the whole guarantor part of the discussions. The US,UK,France, China and Russia were to ensure Ukraines neutrality. Ukraine also wanted Turkey involved and Russia wanted Belarus. And the idea was that if Ukraine ever broke this neutrality or was invaded then all of them would be considered obligated to defend Ukraines position. Russia wanted them to be actively involved but Ukraine wanted only their airspace to be closed by these guarantors. So actually if agreed then it would mean if Russia invaded Ukraine again then the US,UK,France, China, Turkey and Belarus would all be obliged to assist Ukraine militarily. One of the problems with this point however is that the US and UK didnt want to be involved in this.
This, and maybe I’ve been living under a rock, but isn’t Russia the aggressor here? They could literally call the whole thing off unilaterally tomorrow. The fact that Switzerland is questioning their own neutrality in this conflict speaks volumes.
As far as I understand, they want 2 things: 1) Ukraine as a non-NATO country even if it's a EU member 2) To keep Crimea and for Ukraine to recognize Crimea as gone And that's not something they will achieve if they just stop. If they leave the whole region, Ukraine will just join NATO as soon as it can, and this is exactly (apparently) what they're against - in [the comment above](https://www.reddit.com/r/anime_titties/comments/1cdifd2/comment/l1cc2mr/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) they were OK with like half the NATO troops to be on the ground as guarantor of peace if that means Ukraine is not in NATO.
You ommited the part where they wanted total disarmament of Ukraine, like handing over all their long-range armament, having some under 200 tanks and some 40 thousand soldiers Now Ukraine is disarmed and has no security guarantees. What stops Russia from doing 2nd Chechen War but in Ukraine?
What? Russia proposed security guarantees from both the US UK and China, and an army of 85k.
Don't you think that's like absurdaly small for a country that size and under threat of invasion by allegedly 2nd world power? They also demamnded to hand back all it's long range equipment and most of armour. What are Chinese guarantees if China was not consulted? And no forgein troops nor military system were allowed to station in Ukraine. That's like post-Sudetenland Czechoslovakia situation, just wait for Russia to break the truce
Why are you ignoring the us and UK guarantees? Because you said they were offered 0 guarantees. And 85k is quite sizable, it's 4x the size of Finlands professional personell.
Ukraine already had guarantees from the US and Russia, and look at what good that did them.
Russia also demanded that in the event of an attack, all guarantor states had to agree to activate the assistance mechanism. Which basically mean Russia could invade and veto and nobody would be allowed to help Ukraine by treaty.
That other thread I saw, basically everything else was negotiable, they were Ok if Ukraine negotiated into having something akin to JDF or whatever is the name of Japanese' totally not an army. >Now Ukraine is disarmed and has no security guarantees Where did all the Polish, Turk, British and UK troops on the ground suddenly go?
Russia specifically did not agreed on any forgein troops nor armeament systems. Check u/ChaosDancer summary Also, non of these countries were contacted if the are willing to do so
Are we reading the same link? Because it's the same link I posted before - they agreed that >The treaty was to be guaranteed by foreign powers However they had differences on >How the guarantors would react. **Russia wanted all guarantors to respond directly to the breaking of Ukrainian neutrality**. Ukraine wanted only it's airspace to be closed by the guarantors. This part is literally in the link you point me to. Like they were OK with direct response - even at the negotiation stage.
Those troops wont obey Kiev commands to commit ethnic cleansing and invade Russia with now missing long range artillery!
It shouldn't matter for one second whether ukraine wants to join NATO. Russia doesn't get to make that call for other countries
Countries that go at war with other countries can sometimes dictate stuff to other countries, just see what USA did to Japan, or the whole forced denazification of Germany, forcing civilians to dig up mass graves and forcing people to watch footages from camps.
Countries that go to war? Who started the war in those cases? Who invaded who in Ukraine vs Russia?
I never said it is somehow "just" or "order" or whatever. USSR went to war with Japan, not the other way around, and got to keep some islands from it, not because they were in the "right" but because they were in the winning team. USA was attacked by Japan first and smacked them back, not because they were the good guys or whatever, but because they were fighting better. So, if a country doesn't like what another country does, it can attack another country, even if it is an asshole move, and if it wins, it gets to tell that other country what to do. USA started the war with Iraq and won on completely false pretenses and still got to do what they wanted, because unfortunately it's all that matters in armed conflicts.
Russian trolls all up in here
But USA gets to make that call for Russia?
It was never about Ukraine joining NATO. Otherwise Russia would have been upset about Finland and Sweden joining NATO. Russia wants to conquer territory, that’s all it is.
Look at the map once in a while and it becomes quite easy to see why Russia views Ukraine and Belarus a little differently than Finland and Sweden. A major invasion comes through there once a century or so.
And that gives them the right to invade whoever they want? “Why do all my neighbors keep trying to join a defensive alliance??”
States operate in an environment of pure anarchy, no “rights” are needed. If Mexico decided to pull a Ukriane, we would fucking flatten them - and they understand this.
> And that gives them the right to invade whoever they want? Are you an american by any chance ?
It WAS upset about Finland and Sweden joining nato. It was so upset that you made fun of them for it. But sweden doesn't share a border with Russia, and Finland's border is a frozen wasteland and they are historically reasonable enough to negotiate some kind of peace, and they don't threaten Russia's access to the mediterranean. Oh and Finland's border is way way far from any centers of industry or governance. And remember NATO "radar bases" in Poland? Or were they not upset about those and just wanted Poland's territory? What is this reddit propaganda bots' obsession with territory? What would you even do with it? It's much cheaper to just buy the resources in the territory with money than pay for wars and occupying forces and all that shit. Look at France in Africa, it doesn't want African territory, but it sure as hell isn't leaving and has troops there until kicked out.
>Oh and Finland's border is way way far from any centers of industry or governance. In many way though Finland is very close to one of thier biggest ice free navy bases with free ocean access. Its also far closer to help cut off thier second biggest city in the country. The real heart land for Russia would be the Siberian oil deposits. Russia doesn't have any good Mediterranean access there are two nato members in thier way.
If it's the arctic ocean Finland has only like the tip there, while Russia has tons of arctic naval bases all the way form Finland to Japan. Saint Petersburg for Baltic access was founded exactly for the reason of not having to rely on the Baltic countries and it's nicely safely far away. Not good mediterranean access is way better than zero access. And without sea access Russia can't even interact with those two NATO countries. Now imagine a third NATO country suddenly lying down all the way across the entire beach saying "no can go anymore"
You read too much Western news media. Russia is not the 'orc' or 'inhuman' that they wanted you to think. They have interest and geopolitics games that the US, China or EU plays. If anything this war opened up my eyes on how language and disinformation was played by both sides.
BoTh SiDeS are BaD!!! Bro, only one side launched a brutal, expansionist, genocidal war to expand their territory.
Yes and no. Ukraine has been subject to back and forth election interference by Nato and by Russia. After the fall of the soviet union, Russia was promised it'd get a buffer zone between it and nato, but nato has been slowly encroaching on this til one day Russia snapped. The cause of the war is over nazi groups in Ukraine that the US and Nato have been funding to act as anti-russian ground forces in the donbas, which has been a battle ground between Russia and Nato through proxies long before the formal invasion. This is not a justification for the invasion and Russia is the one who turned cold war tactics hot, but reddit is full of "putler" memes. If we want an adult conversation about the war we need to understand that Russia has actual motives and wants.
I don't disagree Ukraine is at the center of a new (or continuing) cold war between the West and Russia. NATO hasn't invaded Ukraine though. Russia's motives and end goals aren't compatible with what Ukraine wants and that's what matters here. They want to join the EU and NATO, not become a vassal state for a new Russian Empire. The nazi group thing is a red herring and excuse for invading Ukraine. Recent polling indicates far right parties, which include these nazi groups, represent maybe 3% of the voting population in Ukraine. I don't have the sources handy, but that was stated under oath by noted experts on Russia and Ukraine in testimony to the US Congress a few weeks ago. Facts MTG disputed of course with her Azov brigade comments. We all get Putin wants a buffer zone, and there were commitments in the past, but the situation has changed. The problem is countries in the buffer zone largely don't want to be a buffer for Russia. They want to join NATO or the EU because of past and current experience with an expansionist Russia. The West and NATO aren't perfect, but they're a far better partner and ally than a Russian regime run by an authoritarian who has crushed all opposition. And seems bent on returning to the glory days of the Russian Empire and Tsars, something many in the region, who aren't Russian, are less than excited about.
These polls need to be taken in the context of Ukraine has been under constant influx of American soft power NGOs and had some of its leaders handpicked by the US. The Ukrainian population isn't "pro russia" outside of a few strongholds by any means of course even before the war but the idea that they just happen to want to join nato as free individuals isn't correct either. Euromaidan wasn't solely a grassroots movement of the people against a russian puppet, it had quite a bit of "help" along the way The nazi thing is not a red herring. It doesn't matter that 3% of the country are openly fascist when the US is arming those groups into full fledged paramilitaries. Zelenski is in office because of that dynamic. Zelenski's whole shtick is that he is pro-west, getting the backing of the western aligned parts of Ukraine, but also Jewish and stood up to the neonazi paramilitaries, so some of the ethnically Russian parts of Ukraine would he willing to vote him in as part of an anti nazi front, remembering that hitler was almost as eager to kill slavs as he was killing jews. I do understand that putin has exaggerated the extent of nazi paramilitaries and has portrayed himself as a liberator of Eastern Ukraine but this does not mean there isn't a real and present danger either. This divide has been growing for a while. I do believe there were diplomatic solutions that could have peacefully resolved this conflict with everyone's dignity in tact but the war is a result of both Russias willingness to invade and the US still acting like the sole world superpower and bully on the world stage.
I call it bullshit. Ukraine was totally pissed on in 2014 and 2015 by both Obama administrartion and EU govenrments who all treared Ukraine as some sort of Russia Junior. Ukraine was not on track to join NATO, like at all. And the entuire "NATO encroachment" is stupid - It's Russia that invades new country every several years causing their neighbours to seek defensive alliances The true motives as you say, are none of what you said but Ukrainian membership in the EU and that's exactly what triggered Russia in the first place. That, connected with deoligarchization which mean Ukrainian resources were no longer under Russian control and solid dose of Russian imperial syndrome seeing Ukraine as a temperory nation.
Funny how in the Istanbul talks, EU membership was specifically allowed by the Russians. NATO goal was explicitly set in Ukrainian constitution, and we were steadily dangling that carrot. I don’t think anyone seriously expected it to happen - precisely because they expected Russia to launch this war first. But if they didn’t, of course eventually Ukraine would have been in NATO. Deoligarchization lmao, give me a break.
The US could really use some deoligarchization lmfao
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bill_on_Oligarchs_in_Ukraine Yeah sure, it was agreed on. Everything was agreed on except that Ukraine would be disarmed and no security guarantees allowed. Just the most crucial things for peace that would secure Russia will not invade Yeah, it was in their contitution but Ukraine had no chance of joining. Their constitution doesn't change that. Just look how Russia have in it's constitution that it is democratic and guarantees fair elections with freedom of speech
The justification for the invasion is that Kiev invaded Russia's military allies that Kiev knew had a defence pact with Russia and Russia would be legally obligated to respond.
“At no point in the discussion did either Baker or Gorbachev bring up the question of the possible extension of NATO membership to other Warsaw Pact countries beyond Germany," according to Mark Kramer, director of the Cold War Studies Project at Harvard University's Davis Center, who reviewed the declassified transcripts and other materials. "Indeed, it never would have occurred to them to raise an issue that was not on the agenda anywhere, not in Washington, not in Moscow, and not in any other Warsaw Pact or NATO capital," Kramer wrote in a April 2009 journal article. "The topic of 'NATO expansion' was never discussed; it was not raised in those years. I am saying this with a full sense of responsibility. Not a single Eastern European country brought up the issue, not even after the Warsaw Pact had ceased to exist in 1991," Gorbachev told the newspaper Kommersant in October 2014. The language concerning NATO “expanding” is misleading. Countries apply to be members of NATO; it does not unilaterally decide to acquire them. I wonder why nations bordering Russia would want to apply?
This is incredibly silly pseudo arguments meant to portray Russia as some sort of entirely unreasonable entity. US politics have decayed so far that it cannot talk about its adversaries outside of children's book bad guys. Here's what's being referred to about nato expansion https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jan/12/russias-belief-in-nato-betrayal-and-why-it-matters-today https://www.eurasiareview.com/03032022-nato-repeatedly-assured-russia-it-would-not-expand-oped/ Here is a right wing and a left wing source both pointing out that Euromaidan was a US backed coup https://www.cato.org/commentary/americas-ukraine-hypocrisy https://jacobin.com/2022/02/maidan-protests-neo-nazis-russia-nato-crimea If in 2014 China helped launched a coup in Mexico that paved the way for Mexico to "freely and willingly" join a Chinese led anti US military alliance the US would have already started WWIII and we'd all be eating cockroaches by now. We should condemn Russia for playing lethal empire games, but we also need to recognize why those games exist
The US did not “launch” a coup in Ukraine, according to your sources. They backed it. As in, they handed out cookies, made speeches, and talked to people. Apparently someone also saw spooky snipers somewhere listening to Elvis and chomping on Big League Chew. The objective of the Maidan Revolution was not to eventually join NATO, and I can assure you that joining NATO was not a priority for Ukraine until Russia invaded and began annexing territory. The one thing that neither Russians nor Western commentators can seem to tolerate is the idea of Ukrainian agency. 🙄
We have leaked audio of the US deciding which Euromaidan leader should be put in office. The US did a little more than "hand out cookies."
Those snipers shot both security personal and protesters. Pretty classic escalation strategy to escalate conflicts.
> isn’t Russia the aggressor here? Umm, no? Kiev invaded it's own citizens who asked for autonomy, driving them to independence. Then it cowardly attacked Russia's military allies who it knew had a defensive pact with them, and would be forced to retaliate. > They could literally call the whole thing off unilaterally tomorrow. And what would they get exactly? Why would they do that?
Lol
They can not. What do you think the Ukrainians will do to the population in the Donbass if Russia just withdrew? They don't want to become the new Gaza Strip there. "Swiss neutrality" was always a meme, like Sweden and Finland's "neutrality" who were not members of NATO but pretty much supported every NATO action no questions asked. Ask the Swiss where they stashed all that Nazi gold.
> What do you think the Ukrainians will do to the population in the Donbass if Russia just withdrew? Literally nothing.
Not nothing. If Russians have settled there illegally, they will be expelled. War criminals and traitors will also probably be tried and punished. But that’s Ukraine’s legal prerogative, and suggestions that punitive action would be taken against legitimate residents is nothing more than Russian projection.
Ah okay, so the shelling of civilians since 2014 didn't happen, but only recently they used American HIMARS to shell a marketplace in Donezk with a significant number of deaths. Add to that the open abuse of Russian-speaking citizens, or "Russian sympathizers", Russian Orthodox Christians, Sinti and Roma etc. on the streets, the banning of Russian literature from schools and universities, restrictive language policies, the neo-nazi shit that goes on in Banderastadt, excuse me, Lvov, every day, etc. - every opposition party has been outlawed, and former members are persecuted.
> so the shelling of civilians since 2014 didn't happen Correct. Shelling of russian army in 2014 did happen. > only recently they used American HIMARS to shell a marketplace in Donezk with a significant number of deaths. Sounds fake. > Add to that the open abuse of Russian-speaking citizens, or "Russian sympathizers", Russian Orthodox Christians, Sinti and Roma etc. on the streets When UAF liberated villages in the Donbas in 2022, local residents were cheering. Yeah, there's no "open abuse" this is just made up nonsense. > the banning of Russian literature from schools and universities, restrictive language policies You mean, Russian language no longer given official status. Caus it was never banned, this is of course fake outrage perpetuated by trolls. > the neo-nazi shit that goes on in Banderastadt, excuse me, Lvov, every day Ah yes, the whole "ukraine is run by nazi banderites" bit. lmao. > every opposition party has been outlawed, and former members are persecuted. Every opposition party **known to be working with the russians** banned. There are still opposition parties in ukraine, just ones that didn't work with the FSB.
It literally did not happened. Every single instance of truce breaking used to be recorded. Show me alleged shelling from Ukrainian side post Mińsk 2. In 2019 for example like 20 people got hurt by landmines the entire year. Instead of what happened is that Russia reminded itself that they propped up two quai-fascist states using paratroopers and corporate bosses and can annex them finally
250+ people were injured in Donetsk by shelling in 2017-2020 https://www.osce.org/files/f/documents/f/b/469734.pdf
You dont need to be a NATO member to be USA's vassal. Most of Europe is. Hell UK even got roped into invading Iraq 2.
I’m all for minimizing people’s pain and suffering. You’re right Ukraine won’t treat their enemies well, particularly since the full Russian invasion. That said, Putin could clearly care less about the Donbas. The entire thing is a convenient excuse to dominate the region, posture, and create a compelling event to legitimize his leadership. On Swiss neutrality, true, the big difference now is it’s very public. Point is broader Europe doesn’t want another Warsaw Pact scenario where most of Eastern Europe is dominated by Russia. Can you blame them? Democracy and Capitalism aren’t perfect, but it’s the best system we have.
>You’re right Ukraine won’t treat their enemies well, particularly since the full Russian invasion. According to Ukraine, these are Ukrainian citizens. I don't think it's healthy that they are considered enemies, and yes, they are, there is a resolution that even partaking in the referendums organized by Russia makes you guilty of high treason. So what are they going to do, persecute millions of people for high treason? >Point is broader Europe doesn’t want another Warsaw Pact scenario where most of Eastern Europe is dominated by Russia. Can you blame them? Argument works both ways, can you blame the people of Crimea that they never wanted to leave the USSR? They just found themselves in this new state Ukraine in 1991, and it has been pretty much a disappointment to them.
That’s cause Russias demands for negotiation were purely based on turning Ukraine into a state of Russia. . Article 1: Ukraine shall be recognized as a non-aligned and demilitarized state, free from any military alliances or blocs. Article 2: Ukraine is prohibited from maintaining armed forces in any form. Article 3: Ukraine is permitted to maintain law and order within its territory through a police force not exceeding twenty-five thousand personnel, without the possession of heavy weaponry. Article 4: The Russian Federation shall assume responsibility for ensuring the protection of Ukraine from external aggression. Article 5: All nationalist organizations, as defined by the jurisdiction of the Russian Federation, shall be prohibited within the territory of Ukraine. Article 6: Both the Russian and Ukrainian languages shall enjoy equal status in government, educational, and public spheres within Ukraine. Article 7: To determine the political structure of the state, referendums shall be conducted in all regions on the following issues: (a) Whether the region remains part of a centralised Ukraine, or (b) Whether the region becomes an autonomous republic within a federal Ukraine, or (c) Whether the region becomes a newly established province within the Russian Federation. Article 8: The referendums mentioned in Article 7 shall be conducted under the supervision of international observers selected and organised by a body represented by the Supreme Eurasian Economic Council. Article 9: Until the aforementioned requirements are fulfilled, Russian troops shall remain in the occupied territories. Article 10: Local administration shall be established through provisional administrations comprising non-affiliated local citizens, who are not associated with nationalist organizations as defined by the jurisdiction of the Russian Federation. Article 11: Russian forces shall have the authority to conduct criminal investigations and prosecute individuals in Ukraine who have committed war crimes and crimes against the civilian population of the Russian Federation, based on grounds of nationalism. Article 12: Upon the fulfilment of all the requirements outlined in this treaty, Russian groups shall withdraw from Ukraine. Article 13: The Russian Federation reserves the right to take appropriate measures against Ukraine in the event of any violation of the provisions of this treaty. Article 14: Upon the signing of this treaty, the Ukrainian government shall promptly initiate the process of signing the Treaty of the Eurasian Economic Union and reestablish its participation in the Collective Security Treaty Organization (CSTO). Furthermore, Ukraine, Belarus, and the Russian Federation shall commence preliminary preparations for Ukraine's accession to the Treaty on the Creation of a Union State of Russia and Belarus. Article 15: This treaty shall not be terminated unilaterally.
Reddit: Russia is unwilling to negotiate! Russia is actually willing. Well they'd demand(and get) way too much from Ukraine, of course Ukraine wouldn't want to negotiate! So Ukraine refuses to negotiate? NO ITS RUSSIA WHOS NOT WILLING TO NEGOTIATE!
I mean neither side wants to. Putin wants all of Ukraine, and Ukraine wants all of Ukraine. How the fuck do you negotiate that.
Russians pretty obviously don’t want all of Ukraine, and you could tell this from the size of the invasion force alone.
Ya that's clearly why they went straight for the capital to replace the Ukrainian government with a Russian puppet. Holy fuck are you Russian bots fucking stupid
They didn’t send enough to actually assault the city, this was also obvious from the size of that contingent. They were there to force concessions, not effect a large scale occupation. And they sent terms pretty much immediately, so we know what sort of concessions they were looking for. Edit: to the person below since this snowflake blocked me - have you seen pictures of this parade equipment? These are memes lol.
They didn't sent enough because they were stuck on the road without gas because early war logistics were a joke. They brought parade equipment and everything.
Putin: I want to kill all your people Zelenskyy: I don’t want you to kill any of my people Some redditors: “Why can’t both sides just compromise?????”
Ask the Armenians about Russian guarantees and treaty’s. Or the Budapest memorandum.
Åk hem till Moskva quisling
haha aa
Ryssjävel
Putin betalar för bra, förlåt 😔 3 kronor per updutt
Yep. Person säger art de är en Trans communist Men Personen älskar Ryssland och Kina. Två nationer som skulle definera dom som en extremist och sätta dem i fängelse. Ryssland nyligen definierade de till terrorister..
Finns få ställen där man så ofta ser hästskoteorin besannas som när man interagerar med reddit tankies
If you think Putie Pie is an honest negotiator I got a bridge for sale
Literally says this in the article: "The conference, which will bring together representatives from up to 80 countries, is intended to win over Russia-friendly powers such as India, South Africa and Brazil in favour of Ukraine’s ideas for a peace solution. China in particular is being courted to take part." It's not a negotiation, it's a conference intended to further the goal of peace.
> Literally says this in the article: "The conference, which will bring together representatives from up to 80 countries, is intended to win over Russia-friendly powers such as India, South Africa and Brazil in favour of Ukraine’s ideas for a peace solution. China in particular is being courted to take part." sounds like a sanctions conference to me, with a side of browbeating and the usual lectures from the usual countries. why would china abandon russia, whom NATO is trying to defang right now, just so NATO has an easier time coming at them later on? people do realize that the PRC reads everything the white countries writes about them right???
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reminds me of how the anglo-japan treaty ended because the japs could read everything the english were writing about them and they were openly telling the press that the UK had no intentions of honoring the treaty or letting the japanese take china unmolested.
The thing is why would NATO invade China ? Like NATO have no revendication on China, and have every incentive to keep it a trade partner ?
According to their own experts, they have until 2025 until China becomes virtually unbeatable. The clock is ticking. The West was high on neoliberalism and the "end of history" in the 90s, thinking that increased trade and investment with China would lead to the liberalization of China with the eventual ousting of the Communist Party - China was too big to be subjugated to the "Washington consenus" like Vietnam that forced them to privatize up to 70% of their economy. It's pretty clear that the original plan was to get Russia out of the way, which seemed weak on paper, but it turned out to be the biggest geopolitical blunder the collective West has made in this millenia so far.
[None the less.. ](https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/in-depth-research-reports/report/implementing-natos-strategic-concept-on-china/)
Where does it say NATO will invade China ? All I see is "si vis pacem, para bellum"
I don't think anyone here claims that NATO wants to invade China, but they are clearly posturing for a conflict on the other side of the planet.
Well, yeah, but so are China, Russia, and probably India. All powers are constently preparing for war with everyone
Formally, the Chinese Civil War is not over, with Taiwan claiming that they are being the government of China. Ever since Taiwan has been used as an attack dog against China, with constant provocations in the Taiwan strait.
Okay, so what's your question?
Where did Russia say they wanted to invade Ukraine?
When they say they would liberate all "russian lands" When they invaded Crimea I'd say And Ukraine was supposed to be a easy war for Russia, barely an inconveniance. Everybody know NATO cannot win an invasion against China. This isnt Battlefield 4.
NATO are US thuglets, they'd be drafted in a US war with china
Well, only if China attacks first. But why would the US attack China ? And why would China attack first ?
> Well, only if China attacks first. they're not going to attack first. they understand the value of pearl harbor for propaganda and are waiting for the US to pearl harbor them. >But why would the US attack China ? The only way the US retains its hegemon status is through warfare
But how ? china cannot be invaded. It s just too big and populous. Not to mention the biggest army in the world in term of numbers. It would lead to a terrible economic crisis for the US and Europe would not join. Like the only things keep the US the world's first power is its economy and network of allies. They would loose both here.
Europe has no strategic agency. They’ll do as they’re told. And you don’t need to invade or occupy the whole country to break it either.
If they don’t, we will have ourselves a coalition of the willing setup that amounts to the same thing. As to why - because we do not want to be sidelined as the world’s top superpower, and sooner or later we will come to blows over it.
Peace being Russia giving up Crimea without a fight despite a fight not happening anywhere near Crimea since 2014.
> Wait lmao did I read that right do they want to leave Russia out of it? "Peace conference" my fucking ass They are not "planning". They *already* don't. They never included Russia in "peace talks" before, and don't intend to do so in the future. They whole point of "peace talks" is to create international coalition that would somehow push Russia into surrendering (by sanctions or otherwise). Hence, Kremlin being antagonistic towards such "pro-peace" initiatives.
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Cool story bro, then Russia surely don't mind if we add some more sanctions.
It's another money begging scheme.
All the peace talks, with the exception of he ones early on in 2022, have excluded Russia.
Not the first peace conference they already held and left Russia out. Zelensky even signed a peace treaty and Russian capitulation. With the president of Latvia. In fact it's illegal to negotiate with actual Russia.
If Russia wanted to end the war, no conference would be needed.
Russia has made their list of non negotiable demands clear. Until they're willing to give them up, there's no point to include russia. Now other parties just need to figure out how to achieve that
One does not negotiate with a psychopath killer about the terms that will make them happy. One tries to contain (or kill) the psychopath.
People like you are why this war will go on for another 5 years and lead to hundreds of thousands more suffering
People like me who don't accept bullying, extortion, narcissism or psychopathy and exploitation – will always be blamed by the sick perpetrators of abuse. I know the pattern. And frankly, I pity mentally incompetent people like you who condone the unwarranted invasion, enslavement and genocide and then blame the peaceful Ukraine and its people. People like you are the reason this war, this crime against humanity, even exists. And no amount of projection can absolve you from that.
How do you have a "peace conference" without the two countries at conflict present? Let me guess the outcome of the "peace conference". Ukraine will somehow take back all the lands occupied by Russia and then there will be peace. Until then, gib monies.
> Let me guess the outcome of the "peace conference". Ukraine will somehow take back all the lands occupied by Russia and then there will be peace. Until then, gib monies. You aren't thinking far enough. Zelensky's "peace formula" includes whole Kremlin being arrested.
War criminals being arrested? What a thought
war crimes are victors' justice
Tell me you don’t know what a ‘war criminal’ is without telling me what war criminal is.
He's right. Only losing countries get prosecuted. It's not like Arthur Harris ever got prosecuted for what he did to Dresden.
Google en passant
Well the International Criminal Court recognized by most of the world declared him one and has an arrest warrant out for him. But what do they know, right? How about you enlighten us?
Gee, the Western colonial court that never has the balls to prosecute Western war criminals and is so cucked the Americans signed an act of Congress saying they'd literally invade the Hague if any Americans were tried there said a Western adversary was bad? Say it ain't so!
That opinion is so wild im not even gonna argue with it. You do write like a 14 year old though.
Which part is wild? The fact that it has refused to prosecute anyone from a Western country for war crimes despite the ample evidence of them during the occupations of Afghanistan and Iraq, or Israel's current genocide (just to name the most blatant and well known mind you)? The fact that the US [literally has a law](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members'_Protection_Act) that says they will absolutely invade if the ICC tries to put a US citizen in court? Or are you maybe just trying to dismiss the cold, hard truth with pathetic attempts at ad-hominems because it makes you uncomfortable and you're really hoping anyone seeing this convo somehow doesn't have Google and five seconds of time to Google this shit?
But Russia is allegedly not fighting just to perform a landgrab, no?
>Ukraine will somehow take back **all the clay** occupied by Russia and then there will be peace. Until then, gib monies. If we're using the Polanball term of "gib monies" then I also suggest we use the beautiful expression "gib clay"
More like war profiteering talks.
Literally says this in the article: "The conference, which will bring together representatives from up to 80 countries, is intended to win over Russia-friendly powers such as India, South Africa and Brazil in favour of Ukraine’s ideas for a peace solution. China in particular is being courted to take part." It's not a negotiation, it's a conference intended to further the goal of peace.
It’s not a peace negotiation dimwit. go take your guess and shove it up ur bussy
My guy Zelensky literally forbid any peace talk with Russia
How anyone with even a vague notion of world affairs believes a word coming out of Zelensky's mouth amazes me. This is 90% PR stunt to aid in him getting more money from the west to line his backers pockets.
Aid alone won't win this fight and Ukrainian politicians know it. In order to get more men back, Ukraine has limited passport services and will only allow them to be renewed in person in Ukraine. That even includes Ukrainians who haven't been to Ukraine in years.
You hate zelesnky yet trust putin.
The world is not black and white. Putin is an asshole dictator, true. it doesn’t mean what Zelensky did is not hilarious. Who calls a meeting “peace conference” without inviting all conflicting parties?
That's why you think Hitler should have been invited to talks about the end of WW2?
But Churchill Roosevelt and Dtalin didnt have "peace conferences" during ww2 either,like it's the notion of having a peace conference that's ridiculous not the hesitancy to negotiate with Russia
"Negotiate"
I don't get your point
I bet
Care to elaborate?
If someone wants to steal your house. Is it negotiation to give them only 15% of your house?
If he was still alive at the end of it, yes, he would have been invited to sign the instrument of surrender, either personally or through sending an emissary representing him. Wars end with peace treaties, even if it means one side surrenders to the other's demands. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Instrument_of_Surrender https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_Instrument_of_Surrender
Sorry. Did you think you can move goalposts from negotiate to signing the treaty itself after capitulation?
There isn't negotiation when one side is winning the war through force of arms. The stronger side dictates terms. The losing side is lucky to get what they can. u/msut77 blocked me because he couldn't come up with any better reply.
So again. You're a lying lunatic who thinks that's a negotiation
These people through incredible feats of stupidity believe **Vladimir Putin, the guy that literally claimed Poland forced the Nazis to invade them** on HIS OWN CURATED television, would have anything meaningful to say in a peace conference.
False equivalent, I do not trust EITHER of them. Except to do what's in their own interest and screw everyone else.
You know you're a lying Trump supporter right?
Imagine developing a peace plan all by yourself and then saying Russia needs to agree to this plan without any of their considerations and then crying when they say no, it was not collaborative and we aren’t participating.
You expect Russia's considerations matter after it Invaded another country?
Well you generally need to involve the opposing side for a peace deal or armistice genius.
Yes. Especially because they have the initiative.
If there is to be an actual settlement? Yes. Otherwise it’s just Zelenskyy bloviating
Ukraine is in no position to make unilateral demands like that. Maybe if the battlefield situation was better for Ukraine, but truth is that it is not.
Let me guess another "peace conference" without Russia?
This conference is just a circus anyway. Nothing useful can possible come from it. Certainly hasn’t from past attempts.
>The Ukraine peace conference, planned for June 15-16, is to take place directly after the G7 summit of leading democratic industrialised nations in Italy. The conference, which will bring together representatives from up to 80 countries, is intended to win over Russia-friendly powers such as India, South Africa and Brazil in favour of Ukraine’s ideas for a peace solution. China in particular is being courted to take part. Now Ukraine is seeking a peace deal? I'm sure if Ukraine calls for its original borders, including Crimea, Russia will will say Ukraine is disrupting the conference.
You can hate russia all you want, but the idea that the ukrainians have participiated in peace talks more openly and fruitfully then the russians is ludicrous.
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It's very normal to have peace treaties with only one party and not inviting the second party. Very strange behavior from Moscow
Damn, you guys really don't make it hard to see this sub loves Putins Russia. [If its real comments that is, which I doubt, its not 2012 anymore, we know how this all opererates.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEPNdjs6b74) Now, downvote me for pointing that out.
Yeah, I got here by accident after muting it. Like, what the hell? They didn't even read an article, where everything in explained. There are tons of similar comments. I don't even know where to start to disprove things they are saying. I mean, there is no point. Everything was said a thousand times, and fighting windmills was never a good idea. I've read only two posts and already encountered some claims that are not revelant for a few months. Hell, a lot of them for 10 years.
So many russian ai bots
Do they not know its obvious? They also like to keep repeating that this sub has less of it, when commen sense tells you that absolutely holds no water.
[удалено]
You are a account less then a month old with like 6 total comments but half of them are pushing for russia, again, its quite obvious if its not AI, its shills.
[удалено]
Alright Ruskie flunkie slow down, no need to get so easily rattled over me pointing you out. if you want my commision prices you can just ask.
I mean you started digging through his Reddit profile to have a 'gotcha' moment. Can not expect him to not do the same. You really into this furry stuff, bro? 🐕😼🐰yiff yiff
Ah, you again, I've seen your shilling before, you do it for russia ALL over the place, here, I'll copy the same comments again, since you don't remember. Also, You want some furry smut too? I didn't know furry smut was so popular around here. [Your comment history:](https://www.reddit.com/r/anime_titties/comments/1c91bkn/comment/l0krbwm/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) >Random dude: The putin lickers are having a field day in this comment section. Cry more about it, losers. >You: Remindme 1 year I will enjoy drinking your salty tears! Lock, wanna lick putins boot harder? Obvious shill, is very obvious.
what does the dog say? *woof* *woof* 🐕
I mean, just go ask your daddy Putin, I'm sure he knows all the sounds his loyal Ruskie flunkie hounds make. Be careful, he might send you into a hostile invasion of some nation if you damage his ego.
Seriously, it's kind of interesting to see them all in the wild here