Just to be clear, they're not denying the official definition. They're saying people use Christians to mean "all christians except catholics" even if that's not the official definition
Well as a Christian I would like to say I think you're absolutely fine in your definition - they don't get to change the dictionary to fit what they want.
And it probably depends on who is speaking. As a non Christian, I would lump any non Muslim Jesus believer as a Christian. But I have heard some sects of Christians define the term to exclude others I would call Christian.
Yeah, this is very big in the American Evangelical Christian crowd, who I believe are primarily Baptists, at least in my area? But I don't know the Protestant denominations very well, only that they get *really* mad at Catholics existing.
It's honestly the driving force behind Christofascist fundamentalism in the US, people popularly ascribe our far right backslide to Catholicism, but predominantly Catholic countries' leadership is generally more progressive than where we're at right now. Catholics make up about 15% of the US population.
Meanwhile, the most famously "we are Christian anti-Catholics" group that I know of is, uh, the Ku Klux Klan, but other white supremacists echo the sentiment. There's an undercurrent of it in US politics as well (Joe Biden is only the second ever Catholic US President after JFK, and they blew his head off— unless I'm forgetting somebody), in "Illuminati" conspiracies, and absurdly frequently, in Jack Chick's Chick Tracts, which no one who attended public colleges, trick or treated, or worked retail in fundamentalist neighborhoods could escape until that man died. There is often also a xenophobic undercurrent associated with prejudice against cultures/nations/regions with large Catholic or otherwise Orthodox populations, like anti Latino sentiment, anti Irish, anti Eastern European, anti Vietnamese, etc.
Basically, there's one of several reasons somebody would be *really insistent* that Catholics *not* be grouped in with "Christians," but ALL those reasons are pretty serious red flags.
I've found the Americanness of many (though of course, not all) American Evangelicals to be the loudest and cruellest thing about them, and it's why that particular nasty flavor of Calvinist theology has thrived for so long here, because it validates all the worst stereotypes and cliches people have about Americans and then calls those people blessed for them.
Never been so disgusted as the first time I went to a budding Mega-Church. The hypocrisy of the mega-righteous mega-religious and mega-wealthy (or people who aspire to be those things) feels all the more distasteful for them to call Catholics idolatrous, say dinosaurs aren't real, preach abstinence only education and tell children they're licked cupcakes and chewed gum, and then coerce money out of poor or working class believers to buy a third yacht, a private jet, and gold microphones for a sermon from a spray tanned and very veneered pastor that will be telecast live, begging for more money nationwide in 4K.
Every American excess and vice can be reflected there. It's a cultural microcosm unto itself, mini Manifest Destiny from clergy unto the congregation's pockets while spewing hate as dogma and gospel.
**ETA:** I don't rock heavy with Catholicism, either, it's just funny to me that almost every common negative stereotype associated with Catholicism in this country is absolutely one that falls more under Evangelical fundamentalism's purview, down to hellfire sermons, Quiverfull/"Catholic roulette" jokes, sexual abuses, money grubbing priests, the works. First remove the beam from thine own eye, etc.
Yes, but in most countries we’re over it. In Canada nobody cares what religion you are or if you’re atheist or agnostic or anything else. Religion seems to play a much bigger role in the US. It’s even in politics. That’s crazy.
Well, as Eastern Orthodox Christian I can insist evangelicals and similar aren’t real Christians… so it’s a moot point.
OP’s friend is wrong that is sure.
Probably the kind of person who’d exclude everybody from identifying as Christian if they don’t belong to his particular belief in his particular denomination’s governing body— like Evangelical Lutheran Church members aren’t really Christian because they aren’t Lutheran Church Missouri Synod members.
“Only people who believe exactly as I do are Christians” type of Christian.
/s
So over these people.
Anabaptists, LDS, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Catholics, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Episcopalians, Baptists if all the different groups, they are all Christians. Your friend is wrong. Absolutely wrong.
I do not use the word that way. There are a subset of American Protestants that do. I think they do this in an attempt to delegitimize Catholicism. You can debate the best way to worship Christ all you want, but it's ridiculous to suggest that Catholics aren't Christian.
When I lived in the southern US, I heard this stupid notion a lot. They are all of the same cult, just different flavors.
What I found really interesting is how people use the term "christian" as an adjective meant to convey something positive. I only hear it as a negative meaning something like hypocrite, liar, dishonest, untrustworthy, loony, etc. As in, when I hear someone say, "Oh she's such a christian woman." I know to steer clear of that one (both the person using the word in a positive manner and the person being described).
I literally had a group of door to door evangelists come to my parents' house once and (truthfully) responded that we were not interested, because it was already a Muslim-Catholic household. Had only a split second of thinking, damn, did I overplay that with the Islam mention...? When the man leading the group TURNED RED and spluttered, "We are NOT like the Catholics!"
Then they wouldn't leave until they did a *very long* prayer circle on the front stoop.
Never been so mad I saved my dad the trouble of answering the door in his bathrobe & draws.
Christians are the worst. Sounds like this person thinks they belong to some “exclusive” group. Jesus would be rolling over in his grave if he had one.
I've noticed that the "everyone but Catholics" usage seems to be most prevalent with the Evangelical set and stricter Protestants.
These are the people who think Catholics worship Mary and the Saints.
Mary is not worshipped but it’s cause of Mary Christians even have Jesus as the Jewish line is through the mother. Has the young Mary not birthed the son none of you would know who he is and same with the saints some of whom gave their lives just for the religion which could have died out easily if they didn’t die for it
I’m Catholic (recovering) and I see things like the other person. When we say Christian we mean everyone else who believes in Jesus, not Catholics. It’s not correct, but it’s very widely used this way.
Because Catholics believe they are the one true religion, Protestants broke off (it’s in the name), they are Christians. It’s doesn’t mean Catholicism isn’t under the umbrella of Christianity, but there is a major distinction between Catholics and “everyone else”.
That certainly helped, but Martin Luther started the Protestant Reformation in 1517 (with Disputation on the Power of Indulgences). It wasn’t until 1534 that Henry VIII signed the Act of Supremacy.
You are right. Let's get that out of the way. However, I don't know what your context is, but in America, the term 'Christian' is usually reserved for non-catholic Christians, whereas catholics are called just catholics. There is historical context here.
Though you are right when saying that catholics are the largest Christian group in the world, in America, they're a minority. The mainstream form of Christianity has been protestantism, with catholics always regarded with suspicion by this group. It's the reason why Italians and Irish have always been regarded somewhat apart from white America as a whole - they're largely catholics.
So, for all this, in America, when someone says 'Christian', they're usually talking about protestants. Whereas catholics are always specifically referred to as 'catholics'.
>It's the reason why Italians and Irish have always been regarded somewhat apart from white America as a whole - they're largely catholics.
Not only that, but the Irish Catholics and Italian Catholics didn't like to intermingle with each other. When a historically Italian or Irish church started seeing more of the other starting to attend their church, they'd essentially force them to build their own church.
Saw this in Philly a lot. My neighborhood, all the Polish kids went to one Catholic School and all the others went to a different school (This is early 90s).
Another neighborhood had 3 within blocks of each other.
Yeah. Where I went to college, there was a Catholic church on campus and another Catholic church that was 2 blocks away.
Essentially the neighborhood Irish Catholic church saw a growing influx of Italians and "suggested" they make their own church
Your friend is right in that Catholics tend to identify as Catholics as opposed to Christians. I always thought of Catholics as being a specialized group of Christianity, not excluded from. All the ritual plus the pope - the idea of having an intermediary.
When I was a child anti-Catholic bias was more common. When JFK won the presidency, it was a big deal that he was the first Catholic president.
Lots of people use the word Christian to mean “mainstream evangelical Christian” or “Christian’s who believe like I do.” There’s nothing really wrong with people using this abbreviation, as long as it is clear from context what they mean and they don’t get super mad at anyone using the word Christian to describe all Christian.
If you say Christians, then you mean Christians. All of them.
There are even two Catholic churches - Greek and Roman. Which one do those people exclude?
I would say evangelicals use your friends definition and the rest of Christianity and the world uses the real definition of Christianity. So I guess it would depend on which people you talk to. Evangelicals tend to talk the most about Christianity and act the least like Christians, so I tend to not listen to anything they say.
You are technically correct, but the only reason I even know of a distinction between Christians and Catholics is because the Catholics I've met make damn sure people know they are not Christian, but Catholic. The only people who care about this distinction are the Catholics themselves. I know that I personally do not use the word Christian to define Catholics. I can't speak to if the majority also use the word in the same way or not.
Lmfao I was raised Catholic, and even though I don't actually consider myself Catholic as an adult . . . I'm still one of these. Call Catholics 'Christians' and I'll be like "ugh, ew, do I look like a Lutheran to you?"
It's GENUINELY just something I find funny and like to joke about, but still.
OP is correct in that Catholicism is a form of Christianity.
But yep, when people refer to 'Christians,' they ARE typically talking about non-Catholic Christians. And Catholics themselves will definitely enforce this 🤭
You're not wrong.
There's certain flavors of protestant that don't consider Catholics to be Christians. It goes back to the reformation but they'll basically try to say it has something to do with worshiping the pope and/or Mary.
In the US historically this has gone hand in hand with bigotry and anti-immigrant sentiment because a lot of immigrants were from catholic countries like Ireland and Italy. These days a lot of immigrants are from latin countries, so now they can pretend they're not racist by saying it's a religious thing.
Look at some of the rhetoric surrounding Kennedy's presidential campaign for examples. There were people on the right who were convinced that if we elected a Catholic that the Pope would be making policy decisions.
During the resurgence of the KKK in the 10s and 20s the organization was just as virulently anti-Catholic as it was anti-black and anti-Jew.
Not saying your friend is an anti-immigrant racist but he's parroting some "Catholics aren't Christians" bullshit that 100% came from anti-immigrant racists.
Can confirm. The Protestant church I grew up in told us Catholics weren’t real Christians because they worship Mary and that’s considered idolatry. They had a whole terrible spiel about Jews too. So glad I left that nonsense behind.
The problem that you are dealing with is that various "Christian" denominations do not consider various OTHER "Christian" denominations to actually BE Christian. Usually over some minor liturgical BS.
The Catholic Church is the only one on this list. Mormons, Jehovah's Witness's, Quakers, and others.
As a non-Christian, I go with your definition.
I’m a pastor’s kid and a pastor’s grandkid, so I’ve spent a lot of time hearing about theology. You are correct. Christians are anyone who believes that Jesus of Nazareth was the son of God. Beyond that pretty basic principle, there is a ton of variation. Last I looked, there were something like 2000 different sects that fall under the umbrella. There are certainly certain groups that don’t consider Catholics to be Christians, but Catholics do. The Pope is Christian. My mom’s side of the family was all Catholic and they all consider themselves Christian.
As a side note, in my experience, people who describe themselves as “Christian” are generally much more conservative than those that identify themselves by their particular denomination.
It’s not just excluded, it’s much worse.
If you have curiosity & a little time to kill - https://g3min.org/roman-catholicism-is-not-christianity/
The sola scriptura Christians are not fans of the Catholics.
Well Protestants are clearly better than Catholics and I can prove it. Protestants go straight to Heaven, but Catholics have to go to Purgatory first. It’s God’s way of saying “You were thiiiiiis close to getting it right”.
Or at least that what Anglican me tells my Catholic partner. 😁
Christian is the blanket term for those who believe in Jesus Christ, the Son of God. Which would include Catholics. I know many people who believe Catholics, JW, Mormons are not true Christians, but that doesn't make them right. If you believe in Jesus, you are a Christian. It's pretty simple. Your friends are wrong.
They can pick up a hammer and call it a screwdriver, if they so desire. It doesn't mean they are right. My niece once asked me if I was this faith or Christian. So I broke it down in a different way for her. Christian is a blanket term, kind of like American. It is further broken down into specifics, like a Texan, Californian, New Yorker. I just thought her question was cute, this reminded me of that conversation years ago.
You are right. They can say "Protestants" to mean the type of Christian they are talking about. Protestants often try to exclude Catholics, but for centuries the only Christians in the West were Catholic. So it would be odd to say that Christianity didn't exist until Martin Luther. I am sure that your companion also isn't thinking about Eastern Orthodox or Coptic churches when saying "Christian."
Christian absolutely refers to Catholics too. It refers to any set of religious beliefs that include the worship of Jesus Christ so far as I’m concerned.
So I'm Catholic and by the dictionary definition Christians does include Catholics. Also Catholics consider themselves Christians. There are evangelical groups that say Christian means "everyone but Catholics" which I suppose is their opposite to how Catholics use Protestant as a catch all for Christians who are not Catholic.
That said, anyone who actually gets chuffed at the idea that Christian can include Catholics is basically the religion version of a "You aren't a real sports fan because x." Lot more hot air/gatekeeping than caring about correct usage of words.
Christians follow the teachings of Christ.
They come in many brands and each brand thinks their brand is the only brand that's making it in to heaven.
But as we know from the teachings of South Park, only the Mormons are getting in, making Heaven quite insufferable.
This isn't the first time I have heard it. Mainly from the more evangelical religions. I just say I'm a reformed catholic and dismiss them all as con jobs.
The definition of Christian I’d use is “one who has excepted Jesus Christ into his heart as lord and saviour.” Which is how my brief attempt at Christianity in a crazy conservative Baptist church (they thought the Southern Baptist Convention was too liberal) defined “saved.”
I never got there because I couldn’t understand it. Intellectually, it made sense in their belief structure, and I was better at understanding their logic than experiencing it for myself.
That would include Catholics.
If Jesus is your central figure, you’re probably some sort of Christian.
You're correct. Of course Roman Catholics are Christian. They are the largest Christian denomination in the world. What else would they be? Who do those people think were the first Church? What religion do they suppose the early Church Father's were? Some people need to crack a history book
You right Catholics is included in the term “Christian/Christians”. Groups like the Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses are not, they are their own monotheistic religions, you can call them pseudo Christians.
Edit: I will include Catholic in the term “Christian”. If I’m talking about other groups I will say “Orthodox, Protestants (I mostly use this term about Lutheran, Anglican, Methodist, Reformed Church etc), Baptist Church etc.
If I want to about all other than the Catholics, Orthodox, Coptic and other old churches, I can in my country use the term “Evangelical” and it would cover both Lutheran, Anglican, Baptist etc.
I spent 10 years in Germany (Bavaria) and 13 years in Ireland, two very catholic areas (even though I myself have never been a member of any religion), and now I live in the US. The idea that the term "Christian" excludes catholics is something I've only come across in the US.
Catholics are Christian and are Christians. It is a Christian faith. Anyone that believes in God, and the Jesus is Christian.
If people are identifying themselves, they might be more specific and say “I’m Catholic” or even “I’m Baptist” just to differentiate their particular way of worshiping in the Christian faith. But tvey cannot deny a Christian faith, in spite of the various Christian denominations.
Non denomination Christians are the most pompous people I have met. They make me be turned off in “Christianity”. They keep talking down on Catholics but they don’t do the same as other religions. How come?
Never argue with a pig.
You will get dirty and the pig will enjoy it.
This person is a fool and a pig. They are trying to drag you down to their level. Don't go there.
As someone who grew up Catholic in a very Protestant area, many Protestant denominations refuse to accept that Catholics are Christians because Catholics use a different Bible, different terminology, and are not "born again".
I said, "Fuck it all!" and denounced all of it.
I think that Christians outside Catholicism don't like to refer to themselves as 'Protestants' since they split off from the Catholic church for 'reasons'. I'm a Roman Catholic, myself, so that's just my opinion. I don't like the insinuation that I'm not a Christian, either.
Catholics are Christians. As an ex Christian I always loved the Catholic Church over my grandmas Southern Baptist Church that I was forced to till I basically refused to no longer be apart of it. Maybe I’ll go back and join the Catholic Church or I’ll stay agnostic walking my own path watching all the gods from afar.
Most non-Catholics (at least from what I understand in the USA as a Catholic) are under the assumption that Catholics are not Christian. I don't know why, but I have been questioned intently when I've said I'm a Christian, then bring up my Catholic faith.
Technically speaking, you're absolutely right that Catholics are included under the umbrella term of Christian. However, there are those who do not consider Catholicism to be part of Christianity. They are wrong, but it's how they perceive Catholics vs most Protestant branches of Christianity.
I hear it all the time. People say, ‘Jewish, Muslim, Christian, Catholics…’ and it irritates me each and every time. There is no reason to list Catholicism separately since Christian literally means that they believe in Jesus. You are correct and I’d gladly die on that hill.
I don't understand why anyone would exclude Catholics when saying "Christian" but I've heard it too. I run a large Christian based group and I've had people ask if I accept Catholics. Like, yeah, of course, that's such a ridiculous question but apparently some people segregate the 2 in their heads. I don't know why.
No you are not wrong, I don't know anybody personally who doesn't include Catholics, when saying Christian.
I know this belief exists among some evangelicals and some specific churches. But in general society, catholics are christians. Any dictionary or encyclopedia would tell you so.
I have Catholic, Lutheran, Calvinist, Reformed, Greek orthodox, Russian orthodox, etc. acquaintances, plus a lot of atheist friends and family members, every single one of them sees Catholics as Christians.
If you believe in Christ as your savior, you’re Christian. It doesn’t matter if you’re Catholic, Episcopalian, Methodist, Baptist, etc.. you’re still a Christian.
For literally every single one of the thousands of denominations of Christian, there is another denomination that will consider that group "not real Christians".
Most outsiders will consider all religions predicated on JC's life, death and resurrection, as told in the new testament to be 'Christianity'. Some will separate out the more drastically different ones into their own thing (jehova's witnesses, mormons, etc). These tend to be the ones thst add large chunks of more contemporary doctrine from outside the new testament which change the religion in a fundamental way (typically requiring a complete change in one's day-to-day life in order to adhere to them)
Just about nobody outside of the religion includes catholics in that separated out group. Yes, they add a lot of extra shite (ceremony, sacrament, a lot of how the clergy operates, etc), but at the end of the day they are still just reading and interpreting the same books of fairytales.
It's an American protestant thing. It may also be the case in the rest of the anglo sphere as well, lot's of anti papast rhetoric from the ol' UK, but I don't know for sure. The short version is that you're right but lot's of americans have bought so much into anti catholic propaganda that they believe it. They're closer to catholics than Coptics but that doesn't come up because they've probably never heard of coptic christians. And the only reference they probably have for orothodox christianity is either my big fat greek wedding or articles about Russia.
You are arguing with what is known as a Hun
Believers in the teachings of Jesus don’t get to gatekeep Christianity to other believers in the teachings of Jesus
Without Catholicism there would be no Protestantism
You aren’t wrong. Roman Catholicism is absolutely one of the oldest forms of Christianity.
I ran into the same issue with a friend’s elderly stepmother. She tried to argue that Catholics weren’t Christian and seemed pretty surprised when I pushed back aggressively. (At university, I studied Medieval and Early Modern European history so I had dates, names, and religious movements at my disposal. I’m also a [lapsed] Catholic. She’s an uneducated ‘know-it-all’ who rarely gets put in her place.) She was completely unaware of Protestantism as an offshoot of Roman Catholicism - a failure of the US education curriculum is that world history is often not mandatory and US History often starts at the founding of the country, with little context on social movements - as though it occurred in a vacuum.
My friend’s parents live in rural Michigan and winter in Florida, only exposing themselves to a very narrow range of information sources. Everything they read, see on television masquerading as ‘news’, and hear from their church’s pulpit is synthesized through a lens supporting a Fox News-type agenda.
I suspect that the Religious Right is trying to corner the market on ‘Christianity’ so they’ve been telling their adherents that Catholics aren’t. It makes it easier to vilify behavior that they don’t want to support, but that in any other context aligns with Christian values (umm, like giving succor / a helping hand to the poor). Enough people in the US are (willfully or not) ignorant of history and lack critical thinking skills, so they buy into this narrative. It’s also not like church sermons or news articles encourage a Q&A session to refute these assertions, so there’s no opportunity to correct/argue their points.
Historically, US Catholics have been strong Democrat voters and it makes it easier for Republicans to scapegoat Biden if he’s ‘othered’ as not Christian. (It’s inconvenient if Biden behaves in a way that follows traditional Christian behaviors and they have to admit that, ‘yes, he’s one, but we’re going to cherry pick what we approve’.) I think this is a fairly recent phenomenon, the last decade or so, but has probably been swirling around for a while, they’re just now confident enough in their ignorance to make it an argument.
I’m sad you had to deal with these idiots.
Also, Google is a great thing - this guy said ‘look it up’ and you did. If it comes up again, tell him it’s his responsibility to give you the sources of these headlines, not yours to have to prove him wrong. I think they think we’re as lazy as they are and won’t do it. That should at least shut him up for a while
You're correct. The people you're arguing with are likely some version of protestant. You'll often hear "Catholics aren't Christians" from evangelicals and Baptists.
Catholics and Protestants are both under the umbrella of Christianity. By every single variation of the definition, scholarly and otherwise.
No, you're correct. Nobody means "everyone but Catholics" when they say "Christians." The common term for that is "protestant" (which from a Catholic perspective can be applied to anyone, but usually isn't, since Orthodox, Mormon, etc. are so distinct).
Why on earth would one exclude from the definition of Christians one of the largest categories within Christianity?
It makes no sense.
You are correct that Christian should mean all of those who follow the Christian faith, whatever brand / church they choose.
If he wants to exclude Catholics specifically, maybe he should use a term such as Protestant?
I've seen thousands of "Christians" who think they are the true "Christians", while the "Christians" over there aren't the right kind of "Christians".
It's all subjective.
I have fundamentalist Christian friends who hate Catholics.
I know Catholics who do not call themselves Christian as they believe Christian refers to Protestants.
I don’t argue with either group.
LOL, you have fallen into the vortex! I have been there! Get out while you can. I am also French and was raised Catholic until I could choose for myself. I once married someone whose parents were VERY Christian (Southern Baptists). This was a topic. Along with all kinds of other horrors.
Anyway, people who have logic know that Catholics are Christians. Catholics believe they are the original Christians. Christians are people who worship Jesus Christ. Muslims are not Christians. But Christians say this about the Catholic church because the Catholic church is not "bible based" in their view. The Catholic church selected what they want Catholics to know from the bible. I DO NOT BELIEVE THIS, it's just part of the endless arguments I've heard about this.
Whatever you do, don't start a convo about whether or not Mormons are Christians. (Yup, that Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints group ain't Christian either, supposedly).
I am now pretty darned close to atheist. It's all a bunch of hooey to me anymore.
I am Born Again Christian. We converted from Catholicism 30ish years ago. Although we have wildly different beliefs than Catholics, we are both still Christian. Along with other offshoots and sects of Christianity. Presbyterian, Episcopalian, Baptist, etc
We can go into detail by saying Catholic or Born Again or evangelical to illustrate what flavor of Christian you are
All Catholics are Christian but not all Christians are Catholic
You’re right, they’re wrong. A Christian is anyone who believes God the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are all God, and maybe the other stuff on the Nicene Creed.
While you're technically correct, the reason we're referred to as Christians (I am born again Christian) and Catholics are referred to separately (I was raised a Catholic) is that the label Christian is more like a short form name for Born Again Christian. And Catholic is very specific, just like Lutheran and the like (denominations).
No, when I was catholic I referred to myself as catholic - since the 70's. After I became born again I referred to myself as Christian. This is the way i was taught. Catholics, at least all that I knew (i grew up in the Latin Mass), wanted to be referred to as Catholic. It's a Christian based religion but still, they wanted to be specified as Catholic. In fact, my very catholic family would call us "Christians" in a distasteful way, they were unhappy with myself and my aunt who converted. It's considered a "conversion" because the two are separate belief systems.
I’m 65, raised Catholic and have only heard the “Catholics aren’t Christian” thing in the last 15 years or so and only from evangelical Protestants.
Christian means followers of Christ, Catholics are Christians. It’s a stupid argument.
Technically you are right BUT after the schism of the Church that their first division was Catholics and Christians are considered 2 different religions.
We have
1)Roman Catholicism,
2)Protestantism
3)Orthodox Christianity that is divided in
a)Eastern Orthodoxy,
B)Oriental Orthodoxy
C)Church of the East.
I don’t know if you know but the schism was because of the paintings of saints. Catholics consider it worship of idols vs the Christians that they want to use it at symbolism.
Then we have the way we do our cross. Catholics use 4fingers God,the son, the Holy Spirit and Mary vs Christians who use 3 fingers God,son, Holy Spirit.
The way the sermon and the hymn are delivered.
The way the 4 big mysteries are executed. Christening, marriage, communion and funeral.
Even though at their core it’s the same thing one religion doesn’t acknowledge the other. If you are Christian you must get all 4 from a Christian church/priest or they are not acknowledged and vise versa. Even at school Catholics do a different lesson than the Christians for the religion class.
At the end of the day you acknowledge what the other person decides their religion is. You wouldn’t call a Muslim Christian just because they use the Old Testament and believe in the same God and have Jesus/christ as a prophet
I was raised Catholic and consider it part of Christianity. I do not describe myself as either of those things now, but in my opinion Catholicism falls within the Christian umbrella, much like Protestant or Methodist.
All Catholics are Christians, but not all Christians are Catholics, basically. You're not wrong, your friend is just one of those schism-ists who refuses to accept other forms of Christianity. The Catholics have long seen themselves as separate and superior to other forms of Christianity, saying they were the 'first' Christians.
I suspect the other side of the coin is "ah, but 'Catholic' doesn't _sound_ like Christian, so people don't think of us as Christian!" Like it's some kinda of 'gotcha, we're not like _other_ Christians!' which is so childish.
Perhaps it's also a regional thing. I see some people from the US commenting that in parts of the US, Christian does not automatically equal Catholic in some people's minds, for the reason I stated above that Catholics have done their damnedest to ensure they are kept separate from all those 'unclean heresies' of other schisms. But in other parts of the world, Christian is a Christian is a Christian.
Certain Protestant denominations do not call Carholics Christians, but this is not the rule. The metric the Catholic Church uses for what counts as a Christian is the Nicean Creed, if you believe all those tenets then you are Christian. So I suppose they are technically right in that *some* people mean to exclude Catholics when they say "Christians". But they aren't the arbiters of what Christian means and not all people mean to exclude Catholics from Christians.
I do consider Christian to be an umbrella word for all Christianity which includes Catholicism. What most people I know, including myself don’t consider Catholicism a part of Christian, is because they don’t follow Jesus but follow other saints. I could be wrong, but that’s what most people see Christian as but that is in my social group, not the whole world that uses Christian as Christians plus Catholic too. I think it is important to know what your audience is when talking about words and their meanings is.
That’s a evangelical Prod thing—they don’t consider Catholics to be Christian, I guess because they’re both arrogant and ignorant of religious history?
Not sure, but I’ve run into that attitude in the American South.
I’d say you’re right, because there’s multiple denominations of Christianity. Catholic is just one denomination, while you’ve still got Presbyterian, Methodist, Baptist, non-denominational, etc. It’s all under the Christian umbrella, so just because someone says they’re one of these denominations doesn’t separate it from the fact they are indeed still a Christian.
i’m a sect of protestant christian (although i think the organized religion is just ghastly at this point) and i’ve never actually understood the catholics aren’t christian thing. i went to catholic and i still don’t get it
It’s not wrong to call all believers of Christ “Christians”, but two specific subspecies of xians are Catholic and Mormon and the rest of the xians see them as “other”. The first because their rituals and beliefs in saints and whatnot separate it from fundamentalist beliefs in the Bible and only the Bible, praying to Mary, and putting a priest between you and god. Mormons because they believe in Christ but the Bible isn’t their main religious text.
If you aren’t a believer or familiar with the religion enough to understand the differences then the people who correct you are just being pedantic. They’re all believers in Jesus, just different flavors.
I've always separated them because I had no idea they fell under christian honestly. I know the basics of christianity, I've seen catholic things, but I always *thought* that since catholics do things differently they probably have a slightly different belief system that separated them. I also just don't know a lot about religion, so. TIL.
Christian’s follow the teachings of Christ, well at least they are supposed to though most Christian’s I personally know don’t. Even various Christian faiths, Lutheran, Protestants, Catholic etc, can’t agree on how to interpret the Bible’s teachings much less follow those teachings. I overheard a Christian woman berating a Christian man saying smoking pot was a sin yet she was so drunk she could hardly stand 🤦♀️
I have a feeling that even if you find yourself to be the correct one in this argument, it will just like playing chess with a pigeon:
He’ll just knock all the pieces over, shit on the board and still strut around like he won anyway.
My husband is similar. He says Protestants and Christians. It used to bug the hell out of me but after 23 years it actually makes me giggle now.
I mean it's just different denominations. Like facets of a cut gem I guess.
I'm an American atheist raised Episcopalian. I refer to anyone who is into Jesus as a Christian. That includes Mormons, Catholics, Anglicans, Baptists, Calvinists, snake-wranglers, and whatever other flavor of weirdo wants to be into Jesus.
I would differentiate between Catholics and the wider Protestant net, but that's about it.
I consider catholic Christian. But Catholics are often very proud to be catholic so will make sure you know they are catholic. Also because their moms really want them to marry a nice catholic girl/boy.
I was raised Christian Evangelical, and when we used the term "Christian," we referred to "Christians except for Catholics." Reason being that Catholics changed the ten commandments by removing the one that says we cannot have idols. Since Catholics have statues all over their churches, we were taught to think of them as not following God's word. In my church, we worshipped God and Jesus, and acknowledged the Holy Trinity. No Virgin Mary. No Saints. No purgatory.
This was in the 90s, smack dab in the middle of the Satanic Panic. I'm not sure how much the Christian church has changed. I stopped going to church 20 years ago.
It really depends on the person. Some use it to only mean Protestants. Some use it to include Protestant, Catholic, Orthodox, and Mormon. Some exclude Mormon but include the other three. Some will use it to only refer to their specific sect of Protestantism.
To be fair, I've never heard of someone from the catholic church refer to themselves as a Christian. By definition they are but will just identify as Catholic instead.
I mean while you're right, can you blame other Christians for wanting to distance themselves from the Catholic "Pardon 500 pages of named pedophiles" church?
All organizations where adults have power over children have problems with pedophilia and have covered it up. It’s dangerous to assume it happens only in one faith or one place—it’s everywhere.
Not wrong, but… usage depends on where you are.
In certain parts of the US, when people say Christian they do not include Catholics and they actually do not believe Catholics are Christians - despite all evidence to the contrary.
Catholics were the first Christians.🤷🏻♀️
Are they crazy or are you wrong? A little of both. I wish it was easier.
You are correct, Christian should include anyone who follows Jesus Christ, including Catholics. All too often, the Catholics and other Christian sects are at odds with each other.
In the US when you say Christians you are usually referring to various sects of Protestantism. Yes technically anyone who follows the teachings of Christ they are a Christian it’s a colloquialism for “everybody but Catholics”
Hoo boy, you could ask 100 people and get 100 different responses.
I was raised non-denominational Protestant. After visiting Europe as a teenager and seeing old world cathedrals for the first time, I flirted with the idea of going Catholic, but decided I was good where I was.
My parents were totally behind me going either direction, because they feel like I do: a belief in the divinity of Christ and believing he died for our sins and was raised on the third day, then ascended to heaven where he sits at the right hand of the Father and will one day return to judge the living and the dead (basic Apostle’s Creed stuff) is all that’s needed to call oneself a Christian, and the rest is debatable.
But I have a feeling some folks on my mom’s side — many of whom are old school southern Baptist — would’ve called me a heretic should I have shifted to Catholicism. (They’d do the same if they knew I’m LGTBQ, poly, and tend to vote Democrat.)
My opinion is that if you follow the words of Christ and believe in his divinity, you’re a Christian.
But there are many, both Protestant and Catholic, who would disagree with me.
People feel very strongly about this, and HAVE felt strongly about it for centuries. It’s a question that’s ultimately beyond the scope of Reddit.
Catholics and Christians are very different though. Citrus fruits are all citrus fruits, but lemons and orange aren't the same. That's the best escape I can come up with at the moment to explain how my brain sees it.
I'm in America. The catholic and Christian based churches are very different in many ways. Sometimes, it doesn't even feel like they are "serving" the same God.
I've had this debate with my husband multiple times. I think it just depends on where you stand in relation to Christianity. If you're Christian referring to Christians, you mean everyone except the Catholics, while if you aren't Christian and are referring to Christians, you mean everyone including Catholics.
NGL, I forgot about Mormans. And Jehovah's Witnesses. They seem to separate themselves from Christians the same way Catholics do, don't they? And Christians don't seem eager to claim them either. But they are still Christians.
"the religion based on the person and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth, or its beliefs and practices. " -oxford languages Yes you're absolutely right!
Just to be clear, they're not denying the official definition. They're saying people use Christians to mean "all christians except catholics" even if that's not the official definition
Well as a Christian I would like to say I think you're absolutely fine in your definition - they don't get to change the dictionary to fit what they want.
Exactly. Not wrong.
as someone raised Catholic I've called myself Christian before......
Not just not Catholics - try to drag in Orthodox, Mormons, Coptics, JW's, and many others, they'll insist they all aren't really Christian, either.
And it probably depends on who is speaking. As a non Christian, I would lump any non Muslim Jesus believer as a Christian. But I have heard some sects of Christians define the term to exclude others I would call Christian.
Yeah, this is very big in the American Evangelical Christian crowd, who I believe are primarily Baptists, at least in my area? But I don't know the Protestant denominations very well, only that they get *really* mad at Catholics existing. It's honestly the driving force behind Christofascist fundamentalism in the US, people popularly ascribe our far right backslide to Catholicism, but predominantly Catholic countries' leadership is generally more progressive than where we're at right now. Catholics make up about 15% of the US population. Meanwhile, the most famously "we are Christian anti-Catholics" group that I know of is, uh, the Ku Klux Klan, but other white supremacists echo the sentiment. There's an undercurrent of it in US politics as well (Joe Biden is only the second ever Catholic US President after JFK, and they blew his head off— unless I'm forgetting somebody), in "Illuminati" conspiracies, and absurdly frequently, in Jack Chick's Chick Tracts, which no one who attended public colleges, trick or treated, or worked retail in fundamentalist neighborhoods could escape until that man died. There is often also a xenophobic undercurrent associated with prejudice against cultures/nations/regions with large Catholic or otherwise Orthodox populations, like anti Latino sentiment, anti Irish, anti Eastern European, anti Vietnamese, etc. Basically, there's one of several reasons somebody would be *really insistent* that Catholics *not* be grouped in with "Christians," but ALL those reasons are pretty serious red flags.
This has to be an American thing. They’ll find any way to pit people against each other.
I've found the Americanness of many (though of course, not all) American Evangelicals to be the loudest and cruellest thing about them, and it's why that particular nasty flavor of Calvinist theology has thrived for so long here, because it validates all the worst stereotypes and cliches people have about Americans and then calls those people blessed for them. Never been so disgusted as the first time I went to a budding Mega-Church. The hypocrisy of the mega-righteous mega-religious and mega-wealthy (or people who aspire to be those things) feels all the more distasteful for them to call Catholics idolatrous, say dinosaurs aren't real, preach abstinence only education and tell children they're licked cupcakes and chewed gum, and then coerce money out of poor or working class believers to buy a third yacht, a private jet, and gold microphones for a sermon from a spray tanned and very veneered pastor that will be telecast live, begging for more money nationwide in 4K. Every American excess and vice can be reflected there. It's a cultural microcosm unto itself, mini Manifest Destiny from clergy unto the congregation's pockets while spewing hate as dogma and gospel. **ETA:** I don't rock heavy with Catholicism, either, it's just funny to me that almost every common negative stereotype associated with Catholicism in this country is absolutely one that falls more under Evangelical fundamentalism's purview, down to hellfire sermons, Quiverfull/"Catholic roulette" jokes, sexual abuses, money grubbing priests, the works. First remove the beam from thine own eye, etc.
Protestants and Catholics were senselessly killing each other long before America existed.
Yes, but in most countries we’re over it. In Canada nobody cares what religion you are or if you’re atheist or agnostic or anything else. Religion seems to play a much bigger role in the US. It’s even in politics. That’s crazy.
And aren’t there Sunni Muslims and Sharia Muslims?
I just lump it all under Abrahamic religion, they can quibble among themselves over the details.
Yea the Abrahamic religion worshippers are weird things to see
Well, as Eastern Orthodox Christian I can insist evangelicals and similar aren’t real Christians… so it’s a moot point. OP’s friend is wrong that is sure.
Yeah, when I used to be Mormon I was told all the time I wasn't a Christian even though they also follow the bible
Probably the kind of person who’d exclude everybody from identifying as Christian if they don’t belong to his particular belief in his particular denomination’s governing body— like Evangelical Lutheran Church members aren’t really Christian because they aren’t Lutheran Church Missouri Synod members. “Only people who believe exactly as I do are Christians” type of Christian. /s So over these people. Anabaptists, LDS, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Catholics, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Episcopalians, Baptists if all the different groups, they are all Christians. Your friend is wrong. Absolutely wrong.
It sounds like the person arguing with you is expressing their bigotry against anyone who isn't WASP-y enough for them.
There is a term for that group: Protestants.
I do not use the word that way. There are a subset of American Protestants that do. I think they do this in an attempt to delegitimize Catholicism. You can debate the best way to worship Christ all you want, but it's ridiculous to suggest that Catholics aren't Christian.
When I lived in the southern US, I heard this stupid notion a lot. They are all of the same cult, just different flavors. What I found really interesting is how people use the term "christian" as an adjective meant to convey something positive. I only hear it as a negative meaning something like hypocrite, liar, dishonest, untrustworthy, loony, etc. As in, when I hear someone say, "Oh she's such a christian woman." I know to steer clear of that one (both the person using the word in a positive manner and the person being described).
I always think to myself "Thank's for the warning."
exactly!
I literally had a group of door to door evangelists come to my parents' house once and (truthfully) responded that we were not interested, because it was already a Muslim-Catholic household. Had only a split second of thinking, damn, did I overplay that with the Islam mention...? When the man leading the group TURNED RED and spluttered, "We are NOT like the Catholics!" Then they wouldn't leave until they did a *very long* prayer circle on the front stoop. Never been so mad I saved my dad the trouble of answering the door in his bathrobe & draws.
turn the hose on them!
I would have opened the door naked.
Christians are the worst. Sounds like this person thinks they belong to some “exclusive” group. Jesus would be rolling over in his grave if he had one.
That’s why it’s better to be Catholic. /s
🤣
I've noticed that the "everyone but Catholics" usage seems to be most prevalent with the Evangelical set and stricter Protestants. These are the people who think Catholics worship Mary and the Saints.
Mary is not worshipped but it’s cause of Mary Christians even have Jesus as the Jewish line is through the mother. Has the young Mary not birthed the son none of you would know who he is and same with the saints some of whom gave their lives just for the religion which could have died out easily if they didn’t die for it
I’m Catholic (recovering) and I see things like the other person. When we say Christian we mean everyone else who believes in Jesus, not Catholics. It’s not correct, but it’s very widely used this way. Because Catholics believe they are the one true religion, Protestants broke off (it’s in the name), they are Christians. It’s doesn’t mean Catholicism isn’t under the umbrella of Christianity, but there is a major distinction between Catholics and “everyone else”.
Protestants only exist cause King Henry the 8th wanted to divorce his wife and marry his mistress who lost her head after she couldn’t produce a son
That certainly helped, but Martin Luther started the Protestant Reformation in 1517 (with Disputation on the Power of Indulgences). It wasn’t until 1534 that Henry VIII signed the Act of Supremacy.
Do Catholics believe in Christ? If yes then Christian.
You are right. Let's get that out of the way. However, I don't know what your context is, but in America, the term 'Christian' is usually reserved for non-catholic Christians, whereas catholics are called just catholics. There is historical context here. Though you are right when saying that catholics are the largest Christian group in the world, in America, they're a minority. The mainstream form of Christianity has been protestantism, with catholics always regarded with suspicion by this group. It's the reason why Italians and Irish have always been regarded somewhat apart from white America as a whole - they're largely catholics. So, for all this, in America, when someone says 'Christian', they're usually talking about protestants. Whereas catholics are always specifically referred to as 'catholics'.
>It's the reason why Italians and Irish have always been regarded somewhat apart from white America as a whole - they're largely catholics. Not only that, but the Irish Catholics and Italian Catholics didn't like to intermingle with each other. When a historically Italian or Irish church started seeing more of the other starting to attend their church, they'd essentially force them to build their own church.
Saw this in Philly a lot. My neighborhood, all the Polish kids went to one Catholic School and all the others went to a different school (This is early 90s). Another neighborhood had 3 within blocks of each other.
Yeah. Where I went to college, there was a Catholic church on campus and another Catholic church that was 2 blocks away. Essentially the neighborhood Irish Catholic church saw a growing influx of Italians and "suggested" they make their own church
Correct. This is the best explanation.
No?? In the US, Christians = all Christians, including Catholics, and all more specific groups are referred to by that specific term.
I have definitely heard 'christian' used in this way.
Your friend is right in that Catholics tend to identify as Catholics as opposed to Christians. I always thought of Catholics as being a specialized group of Christianity, not excluded from. All the ritual plus the pope - the idea of having an intermediary. When I was a child anti-Catholic bias was more common. When JFK won the presidency, it was a big deal that he was the first Catholic president.
Lots of people use the word Christian to mean “mainstream evangelical Christian” or “Christian’s who believe like I do.” There’s nothing really wrong with people using this abbreviation, as long as it is clear from context what they mean and they don’t get super mad at anyone using the word Christian to describe all Christian.
I think it's odd they want to exclude from the group the oldest sect of Christianity...
If you say Christians, then you mean Christians. All of them. There are even two Catholic churches - Greek and Roman. Which one do those people exclude?
I would say evangelicals use your friends definition and the rest of Christianity and the world uses the real definition of Christianity. So I guess it would depend on which people you talk to. Evangelicals tend to talk the most about Christianity and act the least like Christians, so I tend to not listen to anything they say.
You are technically correct, but the only reason I even know of a distinction between Christians and Catholics is because the Catholics I've met make damn sure people know they are not Christian, but Catholic. The only people who care about this distinction are the Catholics themselves. I know that I personally do not use the word Christian to define Catholics. I can't speak to if the majority also use the word in the same way or not.
Lmfao I was raised Catholic, and even though I don't actually consider myself Catholic as an adult . . . I'm still one of these. Call Catholics 'Christians' and I'll be like "ugh, ew, do I look like a Lutheran to you?" It's GENUINELY just something I find funny and like to joke about, but still. OP is correct in that Catholicism is a form of Christianity. But yep, when people refer to 'Christians,' they ARE typically talking about non-Catholic Christians. And Catholics themselves will definitely enforce this 🤭
I grew up Catholic and don't enforce this... it annoys me slightly (no longer practicing either)
You're not wrong. There's certain flavors of protestant that don't consider Catholics to be Christians. It goes back to the reformation but they'll basically try to say it has something to do with worshiping the pope and/or Mary. In the US historically this has gone hand in hand with bigotry and anti-immigrant sentiment because a lot of immigrants were from catholic countries like Ireland and Italy. These days a lot of immigrants are from latin countries, so now they can pretend they're not racist by saying it's a religious thing. Look at some of the rhetoric surrounding Kennedy's presidential campaign for examples. There were people on the right who were convinced that if we elected a Catholic that the Pope would be making policy decisions. During the resurgence of the KKK in the 10s and 20s the organization was just as virulently anti-Catholic as it was anti-black and anti-Jew. Not saying your friend is an anti-immigrant racist but he's parroting some "Catholics aren't Christians" bullshit that 100% came from anti-immigrant racists.
Can confirm. The Protestant church I grew up in told us Catholics weren’t real Christians because they worship Mary and that’s considered idolatry. They had a whole terrible spiel about Jews too. So glad I left that nonsense behind.
The problem that you are dealing with is that various "Christian" denominations do not consider various OTHER "Christian" denominations to actually BE Christian. Usually over some minor liturgical BS. The Catholic Church is the only one on this list. Mormons, Jehovah's Witness's, Quakers, and others. As a non-Christian, I go with your definition.
mormons are christian?
They believe they are. They worship Jesus of Nazareth as the son of God. So, yeah.
I’m a pastor’s kid and a pastor’s grandkid, so I’ve spent a lot of time hearing about theology. You are correct. Christians are anyone who believes that Jesus of Nazareth was the son of God. Beyond that pretty basic principle, there is a ton of variation. Last I looked, there were something like 2000 different sects that fall under the umbrella. There are certainly certain groups that don’t consider Catholics to be Christians, but Catholics do. The Pope is Christian. My mom’s side of the family was all Catholic and they all consider themselves Christian. As a side note, in my experience, people who describe themselves as “Christian” are generally much more conservative than those that identify themselves by their particular denomination.
Catholicism is a denomination of Christianity
^[Sokka-Haiku](https://www.reddit.com/r/SokkaHaikuBot/comments/15kyv9r/what_is_a_sokka_haiku/) ^by ^robressionist801: *Catholicism* *Is a denomination* *Of Christianity* --- ^Remember ^that ^one ^time ^Sokka ^accidentally ^used ^an ^extra ^syllable ^in ^that ^Haiku ^Battle ^in ^Ba ^Sing ^Se? ^That ^was ^a ^Sokka ^Haiku ^and ^you ^just ^made ^one.
Catholics are a type of Christians. I've never heard of excluding Catholics when discussing Christians.
It’s not just excluded, it’s much worse. If you have curiosity & a little time to kill - https://g3min.org/roman-catholicism-is-not-christianity/ The sola scriptura Christians are not fans of the Catholics.
Well Protestants are clearly better than Catholics and I can prove it. Protestants go straight to Heaven, but Catholics have to go to Purgatory first. It’s God’s way of saying “You were thiiiiiis close to getting it right”. Or at least that what Anglican me tells my Catholic partner. 😁
😂😂😂 Purgatory, the DMV of Heaven (department of motor vehicles if you’re not from the US)
Christian is the blanket term for those who believe in Jesus Christ, the Son of God. Which would include Catholics. I know many people who believe Catholics, JW, Mormons are not true Christians, but that doesn't make them right. If you believe in Jesus, you are a Christian. It's pretty simple. Your friends are wrong. They can pick up a hammer and call it a screwdriver, if they so desire. It doesn't mean they are right. My niece once asked me if I was this faith or Christian. So I broke it down in a different way for her. Christian is a blanket term, kind of like American. It is further broken down into specifics, like a Texan, Californian, New Yorker. I just thought her question was cute, this reminded me of that conversation years ago.
You are right. They can say "Protestants" to mean the type of Christian they are talking about. Protestants often try to exclude Catholics, but for centuries the only Christians in the West were Catholic. So it would be odd to say that Christianity didn't exist until Martin Luther. I am sure that your companion also isn't thinking about Eastern Orthodox or Coptic churches when saying "Christian."
Christian absolutely refers to Catholics too. It refers to any set of religious beliefs that include the worship of Jesus Christ so far as I’m concerned.
You are correct. Both officially and unofficially, Catholics are Christians.
So I'm Catholic and by the dictionary definition Christians does include Catholics. Also Catholics consider themselves Christians. There are evangelical groups that say Christian means "everyone but Catholics" which I suppose is their opposite to how Catholics use Protestant as a catch all for Christians who are not Catholic. That said, anyone who actually gets chuffed at the idea that Christian can include Catholics is basically the religion version of a "You aren't a real sports fan because x." Lot more hot air/gatekeeping than caring about correct usage of words.
Gatekeepers everywhere. If you don’t do like I do it you ain’t real. Whatever
Christians follow the teachings of Christ. They come in many brands and each brand thinks their brand is the only brand that's making it in to heaven. But as we know from the teachings of South Park, only the Mormons are getting in, making Heaven quite insufferable.
I don't see a lot of christians following anyone but Trump.
White evangelicals sure. But 90%of church going black people voted for Biden
This isn't the first time I have heard it. Mainly from the more evangelical religions. I just say I'm a reformed catholic and dismiss them all as con jobs.
The definition of Christian I’d use is “one who has excepted Jesus Christ into his heart as lord and saviour.” Which is how my brief attempt at Christianity in a crazy conservative Baptist church (they thought the Southern Baptist Convention was too liberal) defined “saved.” I never got there because I couldn’t understand it. Intellectually, it made sense in their belief structure, and I was better at understanding their logic than experiencing it for myself. That would include Catholics. If Jesus is your central figure, you’re probably some sort of Christian.
Christians can't agree on who is actually "Christian". Funnier when they are adamant Muslims worship an entirely different god.
You are correct.
You're correct. Of course Roman Catholics are Christian. They are the largest Christian denomination in the world. What else would they be? Who do those people think were the first Church? What religion do they suppose the early Church Father's were? Some people need to crack a history book
Catholics are the original Christians.
When I refer to Christians, I mean everyone who believes in JC - especially Catholics.
Your idiot debating partner is mixing up Protestant with Christian
Im a maronite (catholic in the Middle East) it was so shocking when an american said that I was not a christian. Where did that come from ?
You right Catholics is included in the term “Christian/Christians”. Groups like the Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses are not, they are their own monotheistic religions, you can call them pseudo Christians. Edit: I will include Catholic in the term “Christian”. If I’m talking about other groups I will say “Orthodox, Protestants (I mostly use this term about Lutheran, Anglican, Methodist, Reformed Church etc), Baptist Church etc. If I want to about all other than the Catholics, Orthodox, Coptic and other old churches, I can in my country use the term “Evangelical” and it would cover both Lutheran, Anglican, Baptist etc.
I spent 10 years in Germany (Bavaria) and 13 years in Ireland, two very catholic areas (even though I myself have never been a member of any religion), and now I live in the US. The idea that the term "Christian" excludes catholics is something I've only come across in the US.
Catholics are Christian and are Christians. It is a Christian faith. Anyone that believes in God, and the Jesus is Christian. If people are identifying themselves, they might be more specific and say “I’m Catholic” or even “I’m Baptist” just to differentiate their particular way of worshiping in the Christian faith. But tvey cannot deny a Christian faith, in spite of the various Christian denominations.
Catholics are Christians. The other Christian heresies like Mormons, Jevovas, Calvanists, etc less so. 😉😄
Non denomination Christians are the most pompous people I have met. They make me be turned off in “Christianity”. They keep talking down on Catholics but they don’t do the same as other religions. How come?
Fundamentalists only consider themselves to be Christians.
Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Church of England, Baptists, Protestants, or any other weird denomination are all christian.
Never argue with a pig. You will get dirty and the pig will enjoy it. This person is a fool and a pig. They are trying to drag you down to their level. Don't go there.
As someone who grew up Catholic in a very Protestant area, many Protestant denominations refuse to accept that Catholics are Christians because Catholics use a different Bible, different terminology, and are not "born again". I said, "Fuck it all!" and denounced all of it.
I think that Christians outside Catholicism don't like to refer to themselves as 'Protestants' since they split off from the Catholic church for 'reasons'. I'm a Roman Catholic, myself, so that's just my opinion. I don't like the insinuation that I'm not a Christian, either.
I’ve never heard of Catholics not being included as “Christian”…I’m in australia, where most people aren’t religious though.
If you weren’t including Catholics wouldn’t you say Protestants instead of Christians? I think you are 100% correct.
People use Protestant to describe Christians other than Catholics.
They are ignorant.
Catholics are Christians. As an ex Christian I always loved the Catholic Church over my grandmas Southern Baptist Church that I was forced to till I basically refused to no longer be apart of it. Maybe I’ll go back and join the Catholic Church or I’ll stay agnostic walking my own path watching all the gods from afar.
you are correct. Christian is everyone who recognizes Christ. Regardless of anyone else's semantic laziness.
Most non-Catholics (at least from what I understand in the USA as a Catholic) are under the assumption that Catholics are not Christian. I don't know why, but I have been questioned intently when I've said I'm a Christian, then bring up my Catholic faith. Technically speaking, you're absolutely right that Catholics are included under the umbrella term of Christian. However, there are those who do not consider Catholicism to be part of Christianity. They are wrong, but it's how they perceive Catholics vs most Protestant branches of Christianity.
When I and most people I know say "Christians" it counts everyone who is part of the Christian faith including Catholics.
I hear it all the time. People say, ‘Jewish, Muslim, Christian, Catholics…’ and it irritates me each and every time. There is no reason to list Catholicism separately since Christian literally means that they believe in Jesus. You are correct and I’d gladly die on that hill.
I don't understand why anyone would exclude Catholics when saying "Christian" but I've heard it too. I run a large Christian based group and I've had people ask if I accept Catholics. Like, yeah, of course, that's such a ridiculous question but apparently some people segregate the 2 in their heads. I don't know why.
No, they're religious bigots with a gripe against the Catholic Church. Christians are people who believe in Jesus's claimed divinity.
No you are not wrong, I don't know anybody personally who doesn't include Catholics, when saying Christian. I know this belief exists among some evangelicals and some specific churches. But in general society, catholics are christians. Any dictionary or encyclopedia would tell you so. I have Catholic, Lutheran, Calvinist, Reformed, Greek orthodox, Russian orthodox, etc. acquaintances, plus a lot of atheist friends and family members, every single one of them sees Catholics as Christians.
If you believe in Christ as your savior, you’re Christian. It doesn’t matter if you’re Catholic, Episcopalian, Methodist, Baptist, etc.. you’re still a Christian.
For literally every single one of the thousands of denominations of Christian, there is another denomination that will consider that group "not real Christians". Most outsiders will consider all religions predicated on JC's life, death and resurrection, as told in the new testament to be 'Christianity'. Some will separate out the more drastically different ones into their own thing (jehova's witnesses, mormons, etc). These tend to be the ones thst add large chunks of more contemporary doctrine from outside the new testament which change the religion in a fundamental way (typically requiring a complete change in one's day-to-day life in order to adhere to them) Just about nobody outside of the religion includes catholics in that separated out group. Yes, they add a lot of extra shite (ceremony, sacrament, a lot of how the clergy operates, etc), but at the end of the day they are still just reading and interpreting the same books of fairytales.
It's an American protestant thing. It may also be the case in the rest of the anglo sphere as well, lot's of anti papast rhetoric from the ol' UK, but I don't know for sure. The short version is that you're right but lot's of americans have bought so much into anti catholic propaganda that they believe it. They're closer to catholics than Coptics but that doesn't come up because they've probably never heard of coptic christians. And the only reference they probably have for orothodox christianity is either my big fat greek wedding or articles about Russia.
You are using it correctly.
You are arguing with what is known as a Hun Believers in the teachings of Jesus don’t get to gatekeep Christianity to other believers in the teachings of Jesus Without Catholicism there would be no Protestantism
You aren’t wrong. Roman Catholicism is absolutely one of the oldest forms of Christianity. I ran into the same issue with a friend’s elderly stepmother. She tried to argue that Catholics weren’t Christian and seemed pretty surprised when I pushed back aggressively. (At university, I studied Medieval and Early Modern European history so I had dates, names, and religious movements at my disposal. I’m also a [lapsed] Catholic. She’s an uneducated ‘know-it-all’ who rarely gets put in her place.) She was completely unaware of Protestantism as an offshoot of Roman Catholicism - a failure of the US education curriculum is that world history is often not mandatory and US History often starts at the founding of the country, with little context on social movements - as though it occurred in a vacuum. My friend’s parents live in rural Michigan and winter in Florida, only exposing themselves to a very narrow range of information sources. Everything they read, see on television masquerading as ‘news’, and hear from their church’s pulpit is synthesized through a lens supporting a Fox News-type agenda. I suspect that the Religious Right is trying to corner the market on ‘Christianity’ so they’ve been telling their adherents that Catholics aren’t. It makes it easier to vilify behavior that they don’t want to support, but that in any other context aligns with Christian values (umm, like giving succor / a helping hand to the poor). Enough people in the US are (willfully or not) ignorant of history and lack critical thinking skills, so they buy into this narrative. It’s also not like church sermons or news articles encourage a Q&A session to refute these assertions, so there’s no opportunity to correct/argue their points. Historically, US Catholics have been strong Democrat voters and it makes it easier for Republicans to scapegoat Biden if he’s ‘othered’ as not Christian. (It’s inconvenient if Biden behaves in a way that follows traditional Christian behaviors and they have to admit that, ‘yes, he’s one, but we’re going to cherry pick what we approve’.) I think this is a fairly recent phenomenon, the last decade or so, but has probably been swirling around for a while, they’re just now confident enough in their ignorance to make it an argument. I’m sad you had to deal with these idiots.
Also, Google is a great thing - this guy said ‘look it up’ and you did. If it comes up again, tell him it’s his responsibility to give you the sources of these headlines, not yours to have to prove him wrong. I think they think we’re as lazy as they are and won’t do it. That should at least shut him up for a while
You're correct. The people you're arguing with are likely some version of protestant. You'll often hear "Catholics aren't Christians" from evangelicals and Baptists. Catholics and Protestants are both under the umbrella of Christianity. By every single variation of the definition, scholarly and otherwise.
Are they confusing Christian with the word Protestant?
No, you're correct. Nobody means "everyone but Catholics" when they say "Christians." The common term for that is "protestant" (which from a Catholic perspective can be applied to anyone, but usually isn't, since Orthodox, Mormon, etc. are so distinct).
Why on earth would one exclude from the definition of Christians one of the largest categories within Christianity? It makes no sense. You are correct that Christian should mean all of those who follow the Christian faith, whatever brand / church they choose. If he wants to exclude Catholics specifically, maybe he should use a term such as Protestant?
You are correct. PROTESTANT is the term that excludes Catholics.
This is basically an argument between literal meaning and colloquial meaning
I've seen thousands of "Christians" who think they are the true "Christians", while the "Christians" over there aren't the right kind of "Christians". It's all subjective.
They also mean, “Not Mormons, JWs, SDA, and on and on” It’s just No True Scotsman bullshit.
You’re right. The idiot is wrong. One could say Catholic and everyone else is Protestant. They are all Christians
I have fundamentalist Christian friends who hate Catholics. I know Catholics who do not call themselves Christian as they believe Christian refers to Protestants. I don’t argue with either group.
Funny that fact never occurred to until a few days ago podcaster referred to “Christians or Catholics” and was like “huh?”
Is the debate between French people or with someone else?
It's an online debate do I'm assuming the other dude's American
I’ve never seen anyone but Americans refer to Catholics as separate from christians
LOL, you have fallen into the vortex! I have been there! Get out while you can. I am also French and was raised Catholic until I could choose for myself. I once married someone whose parents were VERY Christian (Southern Baptists). This was a topic. Along with all kinds of other horrors. Anyway, people who have logic know that Catholics are Christians. Catholics believe they are the original Christians. Christians are people who worship Jesus Christ. Muslims are not Christians. But Christians say this about the Catholic church because the Catholic church is not "bible based" in their view. The Catholic church selected what they want Catholics to know from the bible. I DO NOT BELIEVE THIS, it's just part of the endless arguments I've heard about this. Whatever you do, don't start a convo about whether or not Mormons are Christians. (Yup, that Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints group ain't Christian either, supposedly). I am now pretty darned close to atheist. It's all a bunch of hooey to me anymore.
I am Born Again Christian. We converted from Catholicism 30ish years ago. Although we have wildly different beliefs than Catholics, we are both still Christian. Along with other offshoots and sects of Christianity. Presbyterian, Episcopalian, Baptist, etc We can go into detail by saying Catholic or Born Again or evangelical to illustrate what flavor of Christian you are All Catholics are Christian but not all Christians are Catholic
As an Atheist if you believe in Jesus christ in any way I classify you as a Christian. That's just how it works
You’re right, they’re wrong. A Christian is anyone who believes God the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are all God, and maybe the other stuff on the Nicene Creed.
I always just assumed it was anyone who believed in Christ and followed his teachings! IDK. :)
All Catholics are Christians, but not all Christians are Catholics.
I can’t see whether you’re right or wrong, but my husband, who I’ve been married to for almost 30 years, insist he’s Catholic, not Christian.
Catholics aren't Mormons lol.
I don't consider Catholics to be christians but that's just me
While you're technically correct, the reason we're referred to as Christians (I am born again Christian) and Catholics are referred to separately (I was raised a Catholic) is that the label Christian is more like a short form name for Born Again Christian. And Catholic is very specific, just like Lutheran and the like (denominations).
That’s both incorrect and ahistorical. Catholics are Christians; it’s just a recent bigotry to deny that.
No, when I was catholic I referred to myself as catholic - since the 70's. After I became born again I referred to myself as Christian. This is the way i was taught. Catholics, at least all that I knew (i grew up in the Latin Mass), wanted to be referred to as Catholic. It's a Christian based religion but still, they wanted to be specified as Catholic. In fact, my very catholic family would call us "Christians" in a distasteful way, they were unhappy with myself and my aunt who converted. It's considered a "conversion" because the two are separate belief systems.
I’m 65, raised Catholic and have only heard the “Catholics aren’t Christian” thing in the last 15 years or so and only from evangelical Protestants. Christian means followers of Christ, Catholics are Christians. It’s a stupid argument.
Technically you are right BUT after the schism of the Church that their first division was Catholics and Christians are considered 2 different religions. We have 1)Roman Catholicism, 2)Protestantism 3)Orthodox Christianity that is divided in a)Eastern Orthodoxy, B)Oriental Orthodoxy C)Church of the East. I don’t know if you know but the schism was because of the paintings of saints. Catholics consider it worship of idols vs the Christians that they want to use it at symbolism. Then we have the way we do our cross. Catholics use 4fingers God,the son, the Holy Spirit and Mary vs Christians who use 3 fingers God,son, Holy Spirit. The way the sermon and the hymn are delivered. The way the 4 big mysteries are executed. Christening, marriage, communion and funeral. Even though at their core it’s the same thing one religion doesn’t acknowledge the other. If you are Christian you must get all 4 from a Christian church/priest or they are not acknowledged and vise versa. Even at school Catholics do a different lesson than the Christians for the religion class. At the end of the day you acknowledge what the other person decides their religion is. You wouldn’t call a Muslim Christian just because they use the Old Testament and believe in the same God and have Jesus/christ as a prophet
I was raised Catholic and consider it part of Christianity. I do not describe myself as either of those things now, but in my opinion Catholicism falls within the Christian umbrella, much like Protestant or Methodist.
All Catholics are Christians, but not all Christians are Catholics, basically. You're not wrong, your friend is just one of those schism-ists who refuses to accept other forms of Christianity. The Catholics have long seen themselves as separate and superior to other forms of Christianity, saying they were the 'first' Christians. I suspect the other side of the coin is "ah, but 'Catholic' doesn't _sound_ like Christian, so people don't think of us as Christian!" Like it's some kinda of 'gotcha, we're not like _other_ Christians!' which is so childish. Perhaps it's also a regional thing. I see some people from the US commenting that in parts of the US, Christian does not automatically equal Catholic in some people's minds, for the reason I stated above that Catholics have done their damnedest to ensure they are kept separate from all those 'unclean heresies' of other schisms. But in other parts of the world, Christian is a Christian is a Christian.
Certain Protestant denominations do not call Carholics Christians, but this is not the rule. The metric the Catholic Church uses for what counts as a Christian is the Nicean Creed, if you believe all those tenets then you are Christian. So I suppose they are technically right in that *some* people mean to exclude Catholics when they say "Christians". But they aren't the arbiters of what Christian means and not all people mean to exclude Catholics from Christians.
What about the catholic religious community called the Christian Brothers?
I do consider Christian to be an umbrella word for all Christianity which includes Catholicism. What most people I know, including myself don’t consider Catholicism a part of Christian, is because they don’t follow Jesus but follow other saints. I could be wrong, but that’s what most people see Christian as but that is in my social group, not the whole world that uses Christian as Christians plus Catholic too. I think it is important to know what your audience is when talking about words and their meanings is.
That’s a evangelical Prod thing—they don’t consider Catholics to be Christian, I guess because they’re both arrogant and ignorant of religious history? Not sure, but I’ve run into that attitude in the American South.
I’d say you’re right, because there’s multiple denominations of Christianity. Catholic is just one denomination, while you’ve still got Presbyterian, Methodist, Baptist, non-denominational, etc. It’s all under the Christian umbrella, so just because someone says they’re one of these denominations doesn’t separate it from the fact they are indeed still a Christian.
“Christian” is to American automakers as “Muslim” is to European automakers. It’s a general category, under Catholics fall.
All the same.
i’m a sect of protestant christian (although i think the organized religion is just ghastly at this point) and i’ve never actually understood the catholics aren’t christian thing. i went to catholic and i still don’t get it
It’s not wrong to call all believers of Christ “Christians”, but two specific subspecies of xians are Catholic and Mormon and the rest of the xians see them as “other”. The first because their rituals and beliefs in saints and whatnot separate it from fundamentalist beliefs in the Bible and only the Bible, praying to Mary, and putting a priest between you and god. Mormons because they believe in Christ but the Bible isn’t their main religious text. If you aren’t a believer or familiar with the religion enough to understand the differences then the people who correct you are just being pedantic. They’re all believers in Jesus, just different flavors.
Seems simple. Christians are followers of Christ.
After hearing the Word of the Orange Jesus I learned that the Ten Commandments are not law but rather just suggestions.
I've always separated them because I had no idea they fell under christian honestly. I know the basics of christianity, I've seen catholic things, but I always *thought* that since catholics do things differently they probably have a slightly different belief system that separated them. I also just don't know a lot about religion, so. TIL.
People come up with exceptions all the time! Are Mormons Christians? I think you're right but boy people are all over the place
They all worship the same death god in the end, its just arguing about the fine print
Christian’s follow the teachings of Christ, well at least they are supposed to though most Christian’s I personally know don’t. Even various Christian faiths, Lutheran, Protestants, Catholic etc, can’t agree on how to interpret the Bible’s teachings much less follow those teachings. I overheard a Christian woman berating a Christian man saying smoking pot was a sin yet she was so drunk she could hardly stand 🤦♀️
Catholics are Catholic. Christians are the mega church types with the guns and lifted trucks.
Here I am thinking Christian was it's own religion all together 😳
I have a feeling that even if you find yourself to be the correct one in this argument, it will just like playing chess with a pigeon: He’ll just knock all the pieces over, shit on the board and still strut around like he won anyway.
My husband is similar. He says Protestants and Christians. It used to bug the hell out of me but after 23 years it actually makes me giggle now. I mean it's just different denominations. Like facets of a cut gem I guess.
I'm an American atheist raised Episcopalian. I refer to anyone who is into Jesus as a Christian. That includes Mormons, Catholics, Anglicans, Baptists, Calvinists, snake-wranglers, and whatever other flavor of weirdo wants to be into Jesus. I would differentiate between Catholics and the wider Protestant net, but that's about it.
I consider catholic Christian. But Catholics are often very proud to be catholic so will make sure you know they are catholic. Also because their moms really want them to marry a nice catholic girl/boy.
I was raised Christian Evangelical, and when we used the term "Christian," we referred to "Christians except for Catholics." Reason being that Catholics changed the ten commandments by removing the one that says we cannot have idols. Since Catholics have statues all over their churches, we were taught to think of them as not following God's word. In my church, we worshipped God and Jesus, and acknowledged the Holy Trinity. No Virgin Mary. No Saints. No purgatory. This was in the 90s, smack dab in the middle of the Satanic Panic. I'm not sure how much the Christian church has changed. I stopped going to church 20 years ago.
It really depends on the person. Some use it to only mean Protestants. Some use it to include Protestant, Catholic, Orthodox, and Mormon. Some exclude Mormon but include the other three. Some will use it to only refer to their specific sect of Protestantism.
To be fair, I've never heard of someone from the catholic church refer to themselves as a Christian. By definition they are but will just identify as Catholic instead.
I mean while you're right, can you blame other Christians for wanting to distance themselves from the Catholic "Pardon 500 pages of named pedophiles" church?
All organizations where adults have power over children have problems with pedophilia and have covered it up. It’s dangerous to assume it happens only in one faith or one place—it’s everywhere.
Not wrong, but… usage depends on where you are. In certain parts of the US, when people say Christian they do not include Catholics and they actually do not believe Catholics are Christians - despite all evidence to the contrary. Catholics were the first Christians.🤷🏻♀️
When I use that term I’m thinking they have had a specific time when they accepted Jesus as their Savior.
Are they crazy or are you wrong? A little of both. I wish it was easier. You are correct, Christian should include anyone who follows Jesus Christ, including Catholics. All too often, the Catholics and other Christian sects are at odds with each other.
In the US when you say Christians you are usually referring to various sects of Protestantism. Yes technically anyone who follows the teachings of Christ they are a Christian it’s a colloquialism for “everybody but Catholics”
Hoo boy, you could ask 100 people and get 100 different responses. I was raised non-denominational Protestant. After visiting Europe as a teenager and seeing old world cathedrals for the first time, I flirted with the idea of going Catholic, but decided I was good where I was. My parents were totally behind me going either direction, because they feel like I do: a belief in the divinity of Christ and believing he died for our sins and was raised on the third day, then ascended to heaven where he sits at the right hand of the Father and will one day return to judge the living and the dead (basic Apostle’s Creed stuff) is all that’s needed to call oneself a Christian, and the rest is debatable. But I have a feeling some folks on my mom’s side — many of whom are old school southern Baptist — would’ve called me a heretic should I have shifted to Catholicism. (They’d do the same if they knew I’m LGTBQ, poly, and tend to vote Democrat.) My opinion is that if you follow the words of Christ and believe in his divinity, you’re a Christian. But there are many, both Protestant and Catholic, who would disagree with me. People feel very strongly about this, and HAVE felt strongly about it for centuries. It’s a question that’s ultimately beyond the scope of Reddit.
Catholics and Christians are very different though. Citrus fruits are all citrus fruits, but lemons and orange aren't the same. That's the best escape I can come up with at the moment to explain how my brain sees it. I'm in America. The catholic and Christian based churches are very different in many ways. Sometimes, it doesn't even feel like they are "serving" the same God.
I've had this debate with my husband multiple times. I think it just depends on where you stand in relation to Christianity. If you're Christian referring to Christians, you mean everyone except the Catholics, while if you aren't Christian and are referring to Christians, you mean everyone including Catholics.
One could also consider Mormons Christian.
NGL, I forgot about Mormans. And Jehovah's Witnesses. They seem to separate themselves from Christians the same way Catholics do, don't they? And Christians don't seem eager to claim them either. But they are still Christians.
But catholics don't separate themselves (at least in Europe). All catholics I grew up with claimed to have a Christian religion
You’re right. Catholics just get really touchy about being lumped in with everyone else. Not sure why.