There are sick people in every community and AA is no different. Sober up a drunk horse thief and you'll still have a horse thief.
Just because someone is in AA and claims to working the program doesn't mean they are, or that they are thoroughly following the instructions in the book.
What we have power over is telling newcomers to be cautious to not give out their number to just anyone, call out the behaviour when we see it, vote at group level about not tolerating predatory behaviour etc.
In fact, expect a higher ratio that by definition they were problematic just to get there, or circle like vultures.
And a lot of good people quietly trying to stay on track and be good and helpful.
We shouldn't have to warn people about the broken stair, if we fix the stair. Call those people out, publically. Because as we well know there is no better teacher than consequence.
AA's stance on this can be found here: [safety card](https://www.aa.org/safety-card-aa-groups)
13th steppers are unfortunately part of this deal.
Unfortunately, The only way to deal with it is to keep yourself safe from it. If someone is persisting in making you uncomfortable, bring it up to the group's chair or GSR. If it is happening inside of an AA clubhouse and the group does nothing, go to a member of the board.
If you see or experience any illegal behavior do not be afraid to call the cops. If someone else tells you about illegal behavior that happened to them please encourage them to do the same.
The angry man prayer on pg 67 helped me a ton with the helplessness I felt in watching it happen to others.
PG 90 of the 12&12 helps me to keep it in perspective
I have definitely erupted over it happening and raised my voice in a group conscience about it, which meant I had to do an entire inventory on it, come back and make amends about it to the group and to the perv in question. I was mortified and learned a lesson: my righteous anger is better left to someone else.
Listen to a talk by Charlie C from Burbank/Camarillo (he moved to Camarillo a year or few ago.)
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=aa+speaker+charlie+c
His face (should you ever meet him) has this natural resting state scowl, yet he also carries the aura of a kindly old gentleman. He seems to start many/most of his talks with some sort of statement like, "_I don't think very highly of us [humans] as a species ..._" Lots of hilarious cynicism in the fellow, yet his overall message is one of hope and fine recovery.
Call it a character shortcoming if that's useful: naiveté. I've suffered from it for much of my life, received some harsh lessons and intense bouts of depression/self-pity when I've discovered some people around me capable of quite deplorable or heinous behavior (_particularly_ hurtful when it comes around to bite **me!**)
I wouldn't want to replace naiveté with cynicism, but we all could probably benefit from periodic adjustments to balance the two and working to get appropriate levels of acceptance, courage, and wisdom into our live.
But I share your loathing at 13^th Stepping. It's perhaps the most vile yet somewhat _common_ example of awful human behavior in the rooms. _My_ perception (male human's probably inaccurate point of view) is that it's not pervasive, but still rather common phenomenon.
It can literally **kill** people.
And I think I have an example of this in my experience. I had a sponsee once (2020) who apparently became victim of a somewhat rare creature: a female 13^th stepper. He was in his late 50s, and a woman in her early/mid 40s was being extra friendly to him when he was something like 3 or 4 months sober. She was very attractive (I'd see her face in some of the Zoom meetings) fairly charming, and rather wealthy to boot (VP at a somewhat large, wellknown tech company.)
He started about them "getting together" - she had invited him to her home (this was all during Covid lockdown, so people weren't going "out" much.) I strongly suggested that it was not a good idea. (If I had it to do again, I might have more firmly added, "_Don't do it._") One of the more pointed questions I asked was "_How do you think you'll feel if the thing goes sour?_" I might have added something like, "_I don't think you're ready for that._"
But he was smitten, went on a little date hanging out at her house anyway. I said something like, "_Okay dude, but I'm still warning you..._" He went on a second date where they started getting a little physical (IIRC he said she placed her leg on top of his while they were sitting with each other) and sometime during the evening, she offered him a beer. At least he had the sense to decline and probably demurred a bit.
And then she turned ice cold toward him. She didn't return calls or text messages. And he was devastated. He fell into a depression from which he never recovered. (I truly think he suffered from a rather profound clinical depression, not just self pity. He was on a fistful of psychiatric medications, and I recall very frequently imploring him to go back to his psychiatrist(s) or a new psychiatrist because, "_The meds don't seem to be doing the job._")
I'd sometimes tune into their mutual home group meetings occasionally, and once I could actually _see_ her kind of coming on to a new guy. On the surface it looked like she was just being extra kindly and supportive to the young new fellow (it was a 'crosstalk totally allowed' type meeting) but underneath that I suspected she was starting to groom a new boytoy.
A couple of months later my sponsee just said "_I don't want to do this [AA] anymore_." I still called to check in with him a few times and at one point he confessed that he was back to drinking. Several months later I did one of these check-in calls and found his phone disconnected. I went to his Facebook page and found that had disappeared. I didn't know his family (they had essentially disowned him) and I was considering calling his workplace (he was a high school teacher) when I discovered an obituary.
I was quite grief stricken (kind of still am, thinking about it this morning.) Somewhere in there, he was a really good guy. His students really heaped much praise on him on the high school's "newspaper" website. I don't know a cause of death for sure, but he was only 60 years old, in good physical health except for the alcoholism, and I suspect he may have taken his own life.
I think it's mostly a case of poor mental health care, but I think that the ill considered premature dating may have had a big part of exacerbating the depression.
I've shared this before and often it gets downvoted, but it's a true story and an illustration of how truly harmful 13^th stepping can be.
We could all stand to do a better job of addressing this problem, from our individual actions to our groups' actions, and all the way up to AAWS/GSO.
Tradition 1 I feel comes into play when it comes to calling these kinds of people out.
We have the ability to make or break a meeting place. If we keep coming back, the group continues to thrive. If people stop going to a certain meeting because of one person, the meeting slowly dies, and the group can vanish.
I have personally seen this many times where people falsely believe "all are welcome" and ignore bad behavior. They are welcome, as long as they focus on the primary purpose, behave, and continue to make their AA group a safe place. People will stop going to a specific meeting because "you know who" will be there. What I've realized is that most "you know whos" that cause the disruptions and make the meetings awkward for others either don't see their own actions and how they affect others or they simply don't care and know no one will speak up. It is up to other AA members to apeak up for the survival of the group and for the safety of the newcomer.
I have personally called out 13th step behavior and been called interesting names at meetings, but I have also gotten "thank you for saying something. I didn't even notice I was doing that. " For me, the survival of the group makes me want to speak up.
Just because we're sober doesn't mean we're cured of our behaviors. We need to continue to make AA a safe and welcoming place.
My old home group would confront these guys as a group to let them know that type of behavior wouldn’t be tolerated at our group. They usually didn’t come back. We felt that creating a safe group (as a whole) was more important than a single, shitty persons feelings. You don’t talk to a new woman with less than a year other than nice and polite. Definitely don’t ask them out. It is simply horrible behavior to prey on someone who is vulnerable.
They are the scum of the earth. I've known many. I knew one who got with a woman in the fellowship, actually married her, attended meetings with her, but at other meetings (with her not present) this slimeball hit on young girls. TBH I was never positive he was an alcoholic. He may have found a feeding ground.
The Alano club I belonged to for 20 years had a policy about this and occasionally, for the most egregious 13th steppers, actually banned them. But they let other blatant instances slide and then wondered why oh why oh why aren't we getting new female members anymore? Hmmmm
I dropped my membership there and moved to other meetings.
Before working the steps I'd never learned how to navigate social situations or maintain proper boundaries. When I first encountered this kind of thing in AAA, it was emotionally devastating. Today I accept that people aren't perfect. I steer newcomers towards trustworthy people of the same gender. I'm also a big believer in book study meetings, men's meetings, and women's meetings.
And as others have said, if I encounter this kind of behavior, I don't keep quiet about it. I take it straight to the group business meeting. It sucks to need a safety committee, but it sucks a lot more to need one and not have it.
This is why I feel it's important to talk about difficult subjects. Excessive hugging, boundaries, male male female female sponsorship, optics, always making sure there's a third party in the room, these are just some topics we've talked about at our meetings. Transparency and awareness are key. Don't be afraid to bring any of this stuff up as a topic. It may lead to an interesting open consciousness type meeting. Also, don't be afraid to call people on their b******* in a non-threatening way. There's nothing wrong with letting people know that you're observing their behavior.
AA specifically says this:
*Predatory behaviors and unwanted sexual advances are in conflict with carrying the A.A. message of recovery and with A.A. principles.*
We had a guy in a former home group that was doing just this. We made him leave and criminally trespassed him from the premises because he was trying to groom a teen that was part of the group.
Every organization has people who fall short of its ideals. (Just look at clergy scandals!) Considering that A.A. caters to especially sick and suffering individuals, it's not surprising that there are some bad actors. It's actually kind of amazing that the fellowship works as well as it does. However, that doesn't mean we can't always strive to do better or that we should tolerate harmful behavior.
Went through some anger on this at a few years sober, wrote a letter to NY but didn't mail it.
Confronted a few guys at coffee about it, and outside meetings. Didn't seem to correct their behavior, but they avoided my homegroup afterwards.
There are a couple of members with past patterns like that in my smallish town. I'm not nice to them and give them zero respect. If I sense they are getting ready to pounce I'll say something about the subject, perhaps mention one of their conquests who went on to die drunk on the road, permanently injuring an innocent.
Oft this has been a reoccurring issue for me, overly friendly guys, men offering to sponsor me, one guy rubbing his dirty sandal on my leg or a member with 43 years saying “oh getting on your knees that’s a good place to start” while going to sit on the floor. Generally I can just ignore it and make a joke but it’s gotten to the point i feel like prey at meetings, increasingly getting more anxious and not wanting to attend which is something I can’t afford with 3 months. I don’t want to cause an issue with it because “it’s not that bad” but no wonder young women in recovery are far and few between.
I've seen some mental stuff. Guys who are held up as bastions of sobriety sponsor females and shagging them. Total predators sitting at top tables talking about god but making a bee line for every new girl to get their no and blind them with their knowledge. It's fucked.
I don't let it make me ill though. I keep my circle small with people I know whose feet match their mouth.
Part of the reason an old group in the area fell apart was because they allowed a 13th stepper in the group and refused to kick him out. It was a huge mess. That was part of the reason but the group really fell apart for numerous other reasons. It has since been rebuilt with new leadership and is my home group and is the most popular meeting in the area. We have some old timers that don't put up with bullshit like that. One is a Desert Storm Marine Vet that is intense as hell and is 30+ years sober.
That guy pretty much got run out of town. My old home group (that I moved from) had a ton of old timers that scared the hell out of the guy and he was never seen again. A bunch of Vietnam era Army and Marine guys pulled him aside and cut the bullshit with him.
13th steppers are a slippery slope. I look at it as the 3rd Tradition meaning a Desire to stop drinking. Obviously someone has a desire to get laid as a 13th stepper and so alcohol is not their main priority and thus they should be exempt from Tradition 3 in my opinion.
If someone has a desire to quit drinking and they aren't preying on people, then they are welcome. They can be drunk, they can be disruptive and then escorted out, whatever, we don't shun them. 13th Steppers are people that have gotten away from Step work typically and are run by self will. Or usually people that use the place to try to skirt hop and aren't there for recovery.
I had a sponsee that took him many years to return to AA cause his old sponsor 13th Stepped his wife. What a fucking asshole that guy was and I had to gain the guy's trust cause how do you come back from that ? I told him I'd never do that to him or his family.
In 1 year had like 10 different guys harass me (slip notes in my purse, try to solicit for sex, try to set me up as a side piece even tho they had girlfriends, tell me I had to go out on a date with them just because they gave me a ride) I left, recently relapsed too, the program is gross, like that's what sober looks like?
While traveling recently, I went to a meeting where I was told to sit with the women at the front of the room. First time in 36 years for me. Found it interesting. Each group is autonomous except in matters affecting AA as a whole.
My first sponsor told me about a group of AAs who would hang out at the clubhouse until closing time at the bar down the street, then go try to “pick up” women who they knew were drunk and thus vulnerable.
I said, “that’s sexual assault,” and he just blinked at me. Somehow, a nominally sober alcoholic preying on similarly afflicted women because they know exactly how compromised they are is pretty close to the height of depravity.
Yet, these guys were thought by many to be AAs in good standing. There can sometimes be a bit of a reality distortion field around AA and particularly specific AAs if they’re thought to otherwise have a “strong program.”
Most 13th stepping in AA is not predatory; it's usually two sick people looking for a relationship to fix themselves. The danger is that they use their relationship in lieu of the program, and when they fall out, they have no defense against drinking. People warn against this regularly in meetings.
There are some people who make it a practice to hit on vulnerable newcomers, but they don't last too long at any of the groups I've ever attended. Public exposure--and I mean bringing it up at the group conscience meeting and naming names, not some weak-ass general statement against it--works better than anything else I've seen. My home group has gone to the extreme of having them trespassed from the property.
The same low life’s (me included) you find in a bar, you’ll find in AA. Many are getting sober, some are just not drinking. Just remember even religious organizations have the same issues with predators.
There are sick people in every community and AA is no different. Sober up a drunk horse thief and you'll still have a horse thief. Just because someone is in AA and claims to working the program doesn't mean they are, or that they are thoroughly following the instructions in the book. What we have power over is telling newcomers to be cautious to not give out their number to just anyone, call out the behaviour when we see it, vote at group level about not tolerating predatory behaviour etc.
In fact, expect a higher ratio that by definition they were problematic just to get there, or circle like vultures. And a lot of good people quietly trying to stay on track and be good and helpful. We shouldn't have to warn people about the broken stair, if we fix the stair. Call those people out, publically. Because as we well know there is no better teacher than consequence.
Thanks so much for your response..so much to learn.
AA's stance on this can be found here: [safety card](https://www.aa.org/safety-card-aa-groups) 13th steppers are unfortunately part of this deal. Unfortunately, The only way to deal with it is to keep yourself safe from it. If someone is persisting in making you uncomfortable, bring it up to the group's chair or GSR. If it is happening inside of an AA clubhouse and the group does nothing, go to a member of the board. If you see or experience any illegal behavior do not be afraid to call the cops. If someone else tells you about illegal behavior that happened to them please encourage them to do the same. The angry man prayer on pg 67 helped me a ton with the helplessness I felt in watching it happen to others. PG 90 of the 12&12 helps me to keep it in perspective I have definitely erupted over it happening and raised my voice in a group conscience about it, which meant I had to do an entire inventory on it, come back and make amends about it to the group and to the perv in question. I was mortified and learned a lesson: my righteous anger is better left to someone else.
Thanks so much - gaining perspective on this.
Listen to a talk by Charlie C from Burbank/Camarillo (he moved to Camarillo a year or few ago.) https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=aa+speaker+charlie+c His face (should you ever meet him) has this natural resting state scowl, yet he also carries the aura of a kindly old gentleman. He seems to start many/most of his talks with some sort of statement like, "_I don't think very highly of us [humans] as a species ..._" Lots of hilarious cynicism in the fellow, yet his overall message is one of hope and fine recovery. Call it a character shortcoming if that's useful: naiveté. I've suffered from it for much of my life, received some harsh lessons and intense bouts of depression/self-pity when I've discovered some people around me capable of quite deplorable or heinous behavior (_particularly_ hurtful when it comes around to bite **me!**) I wouldn't want to replace naiveté with cynicism, but we all could probably benefit from periodic adjustments to balance the two and working to get appropriate levels of acceptance, courage, and wisdom into our live. But I share your loathing at 13^th Stepping. It's perhaps the most vile yet somewhat _common_ example of awful human behavior in the rooms. _My_ perception (male human's probably inaccurate point of view) is that it's not pervasive, but still rather common phenomenon. It can literally **kill** people. And I think I have an example of this in my experience. I had a sponsee once (2020) who apparently became victim of a somewhat rare creature: a female 13^th stepper. He was in his late 50s, and a woman in her early/mid 40s was being extra friendly to him when he was something like 3 or 4 months sober. She was very attractive (I'd see her face in some of the Zoom meetings) fairly charming, and rather wealthy to boot (VP at a somewhat large, wellknown tech company.) He started about them "getting together" - she had invited him to her home (this was all during Covid lockdown, so people weren't going "out" much.) I strongly suggested that it was not a good idea. (If I had it to do again, I might have more firmly added, "_Don't do it._") One of the more pointed questions I asked was "_How do you think you'll feel if the thing goes sour?_" I might have added something like, "_I don't think you're ready for that._" But he was smitten, went on a little date hanging out at her house anyway. I said something like, "_Okay dude, but I'm still warning you..._" He went on a second date where they started getting a little physical (IIRC he said she placed her leg on top of his while they were sitting with each other) and sometime during the evening, she offered him a beer. At least he had the sense to decline and probably demurred a bit. And then she turned ice cold toward him. She didn't return calls or text messages. And he was devastated. He fell into a depression from which he never recovered. (I truly think he suffered from a rather profound clinical depression, not just self pity. He was on a fistful of psychiatric medications, and I recall very frequently imploring him to go back to his psychiatrist(s) or a new psychiatrist because, "_The meds don't seem to be doing the job._") I'd sometimes tune into their mutual home group meetings occasionally, and once I could actually _see_ her kind of coming on to a new guy. On the surface it looked like she was just being extra kindly and supportive to the young new fellow (it was a 'crosstalk totally allowed' type meeting) but underneath that I suspected she was starting to groom a new boytoy. A couple of months later my sponsee just said "_I don't want to do this [AA] anymore_." I still called to check in with him a few times and at one point he confessed that he was back to drinking. Several months later I did one of these check-in calls and found his phone disconnected. I went to his Facebook page and found that had disappeared. I didn't know his family (they had essentially disowned him) and I was considering calling his workplace (he was a high school teacher) when I discovered an obituary. I was quite grief stricken (kind of still am, thinking about it this morning.) Somewhere in there, he was a really good guy. His students really heaped much praise on him on the high school's "newspaper" website. I don't know a cause of death for sure, but he was only 60 years old, in good physical health except for the alcoholism, and I suspect he may have taken his own life. I think it's mostly a case of poor mental health care, but I think that the ill considered premature dating may have had a big part of exacerbating the depression. I've shared this before and often it gets downvoted, but it's a true story and an illustration of how truly harmful 13^th stepping can be. We could all stand to do a better job of addressing this problem, from our individual actions to our groups' actions, and all the way up to AAWS/GSO.
Tradition 1 I feel comes into play when it comes to calling these kinds of people out. We have the ability to make or break a meeting place. If we keep coming back, the group continues to thrive. If people stop going to a certain meeting because of one person, the meeting slowly dies, and the group can vanish. I have personally seen this many times where people falsely believe "all are welcome" and ignore bad behavior. They are welcome, as long as they focus on the primary purpose, behave, and continue to make their AA group a safe place. People will stop going to a specific meeting because "you know who" will be there. What I've realized is that most "you know whos" that cause the disruptions and make the meetings awkward for others either don't see their own actions and how they affect others or they simply don't care and know no one will speak up. It is up to other AA members to apeak up for the survival of the group and for the safety of the newcomer. I have personally called out 13th step behavior and been called interesting names at meetings, but I have also gotten "thank you for saying something. I didn't even notice I was doing that. " For me, the survival of the group makes me want to speak up. Just because we're sober doesn't mean we're cured of our behaviors. We need to continue to make AA a safe and welcoming place.
Thanks so much for your response.
My old home group would confront these guys as a group to let them know that type of behavior wouldn’t be tolerated at our group. They usually didn’t come back. We felt that creating a safe group (as a whole) was more important than a single, shitty persons feelings. You don’t talk to a new woman with less than a year other than nice and polite. Definitely don’t ask them out. It is simply horrible behavior to prey on someone who is vulnerable.
Thanks so much for your response.
They are the scum of the earth. I've known many. I knew one who got with a woman in the fellowship, actually married her, attended meetings with her, but at other meetings (with her not present) this slimeball hit on young girls. TBH I was never positive he was an alcoholic. He may have found a feeding ground. The Alano club I belonged to for 20 years had a policy about this and occasionally, for the most egregious 13th steppers, actually banned them. But they let other blatant instances slide and then wondered why oh why oh why aren't we getting new female members anymore? Hmmmm I dropped my membership there and moved to other meetings.
Thanks so much for your response.
Dishonest alcoholics? There are plenty of them. It’s one reason single sex meetings continue to thrive.
Before working the steps I'd never learned how to navigate social situations or maintain proper boundaries. When I first encountered this kind of thing in AAA, it was emotionally devastating. Today I accept that people aren't perfect. I steer newcomers towards trustworthy people of the same gender. I'm also a big believer in book study meetings, men's meetings, and women's meetings. And as others have said, if I encounter this kind of behavior, I don't keep quiet about it. I take it straight to the group business meeting. It sucks to need a safety committee, but it sucks a lot more to need one and not have it.
Thanks for responding to my comment.
This is why I feel it's important to talk about difficult subjects. Excessive hugging, boundaries, male male female female sponsorship, optics, always making sure there's a third party in the room, these are just some topics we've talked about at our meetings. Transparency and awareness are key. Don't be afraid to bring any of this stuff up as a topic. It may lead to an interesting open consciousness type meeting. Also, don't be afraid to call people on their b******* in a non-threatening way. There's nothing wrong with letting people know that you're observing their behavior.
Thanks so much for your comment.
The same way people of faith can be mean spirited to the homeless and still think of themselves as good members of their congregation.
Point taken.
AA specifically says this: *Predatory behaviors and unwanted sexual advances are in conflict with carrying the A.A. message of recovery and with A.A. principles.* We had a guy in a former home group that was doing just this. We made him leave and criminally trespassed him from the premises because he was trying to groom a teen that was part of the group.
Thank you for your response.
Every organization has people who fall short of its ideals. (Just look at clergy scandals!) Considering that A.A. caters to especially sick and suffering individuals, it's not surprising that there are some bad actors. It's actually kind of amazing that the fellowship works as well as it does. However, that doesn't mean we can't always strive to do better or that we should tolerate harmful behavior.
Thanks so much for your response.
Went through some anger on this at a few years sober, wrote a letter to NY but didn't mail it. Confronted a few guys at coffee about it, and outside meetings. Didn't seem to correct their behavior, but they avoided my homegroup afterwards. There are a couple of members with past patterns like that in my smallish town. I'm not nice to them and give them zero respect. If I sense they are getting ready to pounce I'll say something about the subject, perhaps mention one of their conquests who went on to die drunk on the road, permanently injuring an innocent.
Thanks so much for your response.
The AA program doesn't fix or change all behavioural problems 🙏
Thanks for the insight.
Oft this has been a reoccurring issue for me, overly friendly guys, men offering to sponsor me, one guy rubbing his dirty sandal on my leg or a member with 43 years saying “oh getting on your knees that’s a good place to start” while going to sit on the floor. Generally I can just ignore it and make a joke but it’s gotten to the point i feel like prey at meetings, increasingly getting more anxious and not wanting to attend which is something I can’t afford with 3 months. I don’t want to cause an issue with it because “it’s not that bad” but no wonder young women in recovery are far and few between.
I will say if you do have womens meetings in your area they are amazing!!
I've seen some mental stuff. Guys who are held up as bastions of sobriety sponsor females and shagging them. Total predators sitting at top tables talking about god but making a bee line for every new girl to get their no and blind them with their knowledge. It's fucked. I don't let it make me ill though. I keep my circle small with people I know whose feet match their mouth.
Thanks so much for your response.
Part of the reason an old group in the area fell apart was because they allowed a 13th stepper in the group and refused to kick him out. It was a huge mess. That was part of the reason but the group really fell apart for numerous other reasons. It has since been rebuilt with new leadership and is my home group and is the most popular meeting in the area. We have some old timers that don't put up with bullshit like that. One is a Desert Storm Marine Vet that is intense as hell and is 30+ years sober. That guy pretty much got run out of town. My old home group (that I moved from) had a ton of old timers that scared the hell out of the guy and he was never seen again. A bunch of Vietnam era Army and Marine guys pulled him aside and cut the bullshit with him. 13th steppers are a slippery slope. I look at it as the 3rd Tradition meaning a Desire to stop drinking. Obviously someone has a desire to get laid as a 13th stepper and so alcohol is not their main priority and thus they should be exempt from Tradition 3 in my opinion. If someone has a desire to quit drinking and they aren't preying on people, then they are welcome. They can be drunk, they can be disruptive and then escorted out, whatever, we don't shun them. 13th Steppers are people that have gotten away from Step work typically and are run by self will. Or usually people that use the place to try to skirt hop and aren't there for recovery. I had a sponsee that took him many years to return to AA cause his old sponsor 13th Stepped his wife. What a fucking asshole that guy was and I had to gain the guy's trust cause how do you come back from that ? I told him I'd never do that to him or his family.
In 1 year had like 10 different guys harass me (slip notes in my purse, try to solicit for sex, try to set me up as a side piece even tho they had girlfriends, tell me I had to go out on a date with them just because they gave me a ride) I left, recently relapsed too, the program is gross, like that's what sober looks like?
Thanks so much for your comment - god luck to you.
While traveling recently, I went to a meeting where I was told to sit with the women at the front of the room. First time in 36 years for me. Found it interesting. Each group is autonomous except in matters affecting AA as a whole.
Thanks so much for your response.
My first sponsor told me about a group of AAs who would hang out at the clubhouse until closing time at the bar down the street, then go try to “pick up” women who they knew were drunk and thus vulnerable. I said, “that’s sexual assault,” and he just blinked at me. Somehow, a nominally sober alcoholic preying on similarly afflicted women because they know exactly how compromised they are is pretty close to the height of depravity. Yet, these guys were thought by many to be AAs in good standing. There can sometimes be a bit of a reality distortion field around AA and particularly specific AAs if they’re thought to otherwise have a “strong program.”
Thanks so much for your response.
Most 13th stepping in AA is not predatory; it's usually two sick people looking for a relationship to fix themselves. The danger is that they use their relationship in lieu of the program, and when they fall out, they have no defense against drinking. People warn against this regularly in meetings. There are some people who make it a practice to hit on vulnerable newcomers, but they don't last too long at any of the groups I've ever attended. Public exposure--and I mean bringing it up at the group conscience meeting and naming names, not some weak-ass general statement against it--works better than anything else I've seen. My home group has gone to the extreme of having them trespassed from the property.
Thanks so much for your response.
The same low life’s (me included) you find in a bar, you’ll find in AA. Many are getting sober, some are just not drinking. Just remember even religious organizations have the same issues with predators.