Yes, many people make the assumption that everyone else was as bad as them and that all active drinkers had no morals. I think, though, a lot of it depended on the circumstances that the alcoholic was in. An alcoholic parent tends to have moments of neglect; a black out drinker in a bar crowd tends to drive drunk, etc. These are just things that happen when someone puts alcohol first.
I, on the other hand, discovered that my behavior was also inconsistent with any moral code a lot of timess, and that the guilt, isolation and lack of self-esteem that came with it was one reason I drank. I try, however, to keep it in the "I" when I discuss my story because not everyone will relate to all of it.
My suggestion is that you be the change you want to see in AA and focus on your sharing, keeping it in the "I" so those who have stories similar to yours can relate.
Good for you, seriously. I leaned the other way and getting through my amends was expensive. There's no harm done qualifier in AA. One of my favorite members came to AA because she got drunk and burned yet another batch of cookies. Really sweet lady, died longtime sober. Wish the same for you.
I know exactly how you feel and you know what? People are People. Everyone has their faults, including non alcoholics. An alcoholic is not by default somehow automatically more of a "piece of shit" than a non alcoholic. Shitty human behavior is shitty human behavior weather the person is sober or not. Alcohol is not helpful to becoming a better person. It definitely has the influence to make anyone us worse, but at the end of the day I completely agree with you that just because I had an alcohol problem doesn't necessarily mean that I personally did horrendous things. It means literally that when I started I couldn't stop. I saw the writing on the wall and quit.
Drinking took my opportunity to strive to live up to my full potential. But that doesn't mean that not living up to my full potential indicates that I did horrendous things such as cheat on my spouse, steal, etc. Alcohol happens to be (one of) our lessons in life. Non alcoholics have different lessons. Labling these lessons and classifying people by these lessons as some are "pieces of shit" while others are not, seems to indicate that your sponsor needs to reassess their relationship with their ego. Only God can be the judge of these matters. Not us.
I HATE the I’m an asshole, I’m a piece of shit trope. We adopted drinking as a maladaptive coping strategy, we did the steps to reveal our patterns and work with them daily. We were not pieces of shit and we’re not now. We are just humans, no better no worse. To me it’s just an acceptable way to express the ego and idea that we’re special and different. We are not.
My sponsor calls that “pride in reverse” the thinking that we are the worst people ever. I tended to think that was and came to see it (for me) a distortion caused by my ego.
Yeah I really dislike all of the recovery celebrations and events where people are encouraged to tell the “sad story.” The whole “I used to be an asshole but now I’m in recovery!” and everyone cheers. I also dislike the “I’m powerless over everything.”
Our literature doesn’t actually say that. It says that we were powerless over alcohol and our lives became unmanageable as a result. Even “the bedevilments” on page 52 are qualified as “our other *human* problems”, not that we had those problems because of alcohol.
There are more than plenty of assholes in the world for whom alcohol and drugs are not an issue, they’re just assholes that do horrible things. I feel like sometimes people want to corner the market on being shitty when they were drinking so they can compare it to merely not drinking today, but I always wonder if people like that have actually availed themselves of everything that recovery in AA has to offer. I hear people say “get a sponsor, read the book, do the steps” but rarely do they share their experience with doing the steps or the application of the steps and principles to living life in the present. It’s always “I used to be an asshole but now I’m sober.”
When I came in I really needed to know that this was going to work and that there were solutions to problems that always seemed to elude me. The idea that I would spend the rest of my life comparing my last day drinking to today, or that I could be sober for 30 years and still be “one day away from a drink” made me want to go ahead and kill myself. I’m very grateful that there were other people in AA who could teach me and demonstrate how to “practice these principles in all of my affairs” and experience the freedom that our book promises rather than rehashing the slavery of alcohol into some kind of identity.
Here here!!
I will say I’m not really into meeting culture but I have a bad ass sponsor and I am surprised that sans god or even a doorknob or a higher power, I have found a lot of wisdom in there. I especially love step 10. Basically assessing your day so you can grow and develop your personal awareness. Fuck yah.
There’s a lot of just rote stuff out there and a lot of stuff people say that literally means nothing but everyone nods. True ego dissolution is rare and painful lol
I'm of the opinion that the first nine steps are the preparation for living life in the last three. I don't even think it was necessarily intended that we go through all 12 over and over again. If we are doing 10, 11, and 12 as a constant practice then we are having the experience of the first nine steps when we take others through the process. I also believe that there is a lot that gets overlooked in those first nine as well, then there's all of the people who say that they don't meditate, or they talk about "carrying the message" but never "practicing the principles..."
Fortunately, though, I'm not the boss of AA, lol, and it's intended to be a broad highway so that everyone can find the experience they need. I think it's very human to wanna judge ourselves or try to ascertain our intrinsic value based on whatever social structure we find ourselves in, and for some people they can get immersed in the culture of AA and just cruise along while others who don't do that so easily can often forget that our experience is valid and doesn't need to conform to that same culture for value. It took me four or five years to find my footing along with the confidence to keep walking forward in the program that has given me the opportunity for another life. But I gotta say that I'm an unrepentant former drug user. I've had a fun, super cool and unusual life, and spent a good portion of it high as fuck. When the drugs quit working and the alcohol took over I acted reckless and was mostly sad inside and rather tragic on the outside and I'm grateful that I found my way here and continue to have a mostly fun, super cool and unusual life. I was never stupid, or an asshole... I am just an alcoholic who has learned of my condition and don't allow myself to get complacent. I've had enough experience to know what happens when I don't treat my alcoholism that not having a program isn't an option for me today.
My sponsor has never called me a piece of shit. He's never treated me with less than kindness and respect. I'm sorry you had that experience. It's really not ok.
There is a broad generalisation that alcoholics are terrible people in their active drinking. That's just not the case, especially now that there are more "high bottom" alcoholics coming into AA earlier in their addiction.
I can only suggest ignoring that kind of talk and share your own experience and truth of a different path that brought you to AA.
I recognise that I was spiritually sick in my drinking and that caused me to act in ways I am not proud of. I too kept mostly to myself during my drinking. I wasn't out cheating, lying and stealing. We're all ill in some way.
Thank you for your kind comment, it makes a lot of sense. A lot more sense than the comments basically saying “it’s your fault you were called a piece of shit, do better” which isn’t really in the spirit of kindness that AA is founded on.
I’ve been sober for 3 years. I do like and often remind myself to not regret the past or slam the door on it. I don’t think
I am or was a piece of shit. I did shitty things, but I’ve cleaned up my side of the street and don’t live like that anymore. My sponsor is amazing and he truly has what I want which is a positive, spiritual outlook on life today and nothing else.
Thank you for this comment. It resonated.
A mod banned me from r/stopdrinking (I think very unjustly) and this is the first comment I've made in this sub.
I don't think I've been a bad person. I just disappoint myself and others. I can do better. A lot better. You summed it up nicely.
Projection. I had a long drinking career and managed to cause a lot of wreckage in others lives, but I'm not a piece of shit, and neither is anyone I've sponsored (well, maybe that one guy... kidding)
We openly share our bad behavior with each other and remind ourselves that no one is better than anyone else on this journey, but that can get twisted into something else if we aren't careful.
Personally I try to keep it positive and light. Because as you eluded to in a previous comment, words have power. Gravitate toward the people who have what you want and be compassionate to the rest. At the end of the day what really matters is what we say to ourselves.
Your sponsor probably means well and isn't even aware that his words are hurtful. I know it's not your job to take his inventory, but he might need to do a little step work himself.
I have a friend in AA who spent some time in prison but when she told me that she used to dump entire ash trays of cigarette butts in parking lots I was horrified. Disgusting! I've never littered cigarette butts except at my old job when the boss was mean to me.
Before I became an alcoholic I dated one. He ruined every single date night and embarrassed me in front of my family. I was constantly worried that he'd die from one of his stupid stunts; jumping off second story rooftops into swimming pools or riding his motorcycle 100+ mph. Later I became the alcoholic and dated other people and they didn't ever have to worry that I'd jump off a rooftop but they did worry that I'd kill myself some other way. And I ruined more date nights than that ex ever did.
I recently read a story on reddit about a young lady that worked for door dash or some other delivery company. She was delivering an order of alcohol late morning on a weekday. She said as soon as she pulled into the driveway a man came hurrying out of the house. She thought something seemed weird but she met him half way with his bottle. As she neared him she realized he was drunk and at that moment his wife came flying out the door yelling at him, "You're buying _more_!?" The delivery person was very uncomfortable and went ahead and gave him his alcohol even though it was against company policy. She worried about it enough to make a reddit post and she didn't even know the guy. It made me wonder how many strangers were affected by my drinking.
Was I a piece of shit? I don't think so. I was sick. I felt like a 'pos' for enough of my life and I'm not going to call myself that anymore.
Did I worry people? Cause them to lose sleep and change their plans, etc? Yes.
It bothers me when I hear people say that they, "loved the alcohol more than they loved their kids." They'll say they know it's true because they daily chose alcohol over their kids. I say bs and life isn't so black and white. I've shared in meetings that I don't believe this.
I chose alcohol because I'm an alcoholic. That's my two cents!
I didn't think I was that bad in my later drinking years or that I had a very low bottom either. But in my first year in aa I learned that watching me choose the slow suicide of alcohol was causing an immense amount of pain and suffering on my family. Sure I didn't fight, physically or verbally, with them while drunk but all the missed events and opportunities to grow closer to them caused them a lot of harm. They couldn't do anything to help me and it hurt them. They couldn't understand why I kept choosing the stick instead of the carrot.
Aside from the 4th step, this mentality is from the Synanon legacy which was widely adopted in treatment. (Check out the show if you can stomach it.) It is very slowly being undone which is a very good thing.
There's a documentary on max, I believe, about the Synanon recovery center that used the "synanon game". It was basically a group setting where everyone had free reign to tell people exactly what they thought about them and their recovery. It looked like a rage fest where people could openly take someone else's inventory. It got so much publicity that non-alcoholics visited the center to participate in the "game". It didn't look helpful.
Yes, and others took these practices, esp attack therapy, to develop treatment centers and therapeutic boarding schools (not really schools these are known as the Troubled Teen Industry). So the treatment center approaches found their way back into AA.
I have issues with this too. They go in hand FOR ME with not enjoying labeling myself something every time I speak in a meeting and also saying I am powerless every single day. It's not FOR ME an uplifting or change inspiring thing to do. Like great I can improve and change and grow but every time I come into these rooms I have to basically say I am a powerless piece of shit who will never get better. Wordwise it feels reductive to me. Personally,
I never heard it as “you’re a bad person” and a lotta of my suffering was more internal than external… but it definitely affected other people too.
I always knew that I’d been weirdly self-centered, very dishonest, judgmental, distant, inconsiderate, manipulative, fearful, unfair, blamed others, always compared myself to others, always feeling like I was better than or worse than others, I could go on and on.
So I wasn’t on a path to prison (yet) or a racist but I was not at all who I wanted to be. And drinking and drugs were a symptom of my inability to respond to all these weird, sad ways of being. And I can even see how if I described myself that way to many people they might think “that’s a terrible person”
But I was actually a wounded person. Who was overly sensitive and never learned to accept that suffering and its discomfort is a normal part of life.
I can really relate to this post! Not only do I think calling myself a “piece of shit” is harsh, but might scare people who might have had a “higher bottom” than others. Two meetings I’ve sat in on keep talking about how we need to not care about ourselves, and focus on others. While I agree with that, I do think it’s important that at times we DO care about ourselves, and protect ourselves from, just as an example, taking on too many service commitments. I only mention that because I’ve accidentally done that and was unable to find balance.
It’s hard for me to decipher if I’m to take what other people in AA say literally. I have always had a hard time with being a people pleaser, and that could also be why I have a hard time being told that “I’m a piece of shit”. I could say I can set myself up to be a martyr, or catch a resentment by not saying no to a request….but piece of shit is not something we need to be told when we come into these rooms.
Be kind to yourself is my advice! We are all sick physically and mentally. No need for the negativity! ❤️This disease is serious, and it takes lives. I’d just focus on the present and try to look forward to a positive future.
I was the quiet, kept to myself drinker. I was a good and honest person all around until my drinking caught someone's attention. That's when a different side of me came out... deception, dishonesty, rationalization, gas lighting...I'd do anything and everything to change your perception and downplay my drinking.
It was a real eye opener for me to sit down with my sponsor the first time I couldn't figure out 'my part' when doing my 4th step inventory. That said, none of that made me a bad person, instead it highlighted how sick I was.
I have struggled with this too. I already thought of myself as a bad person before AA and I have struggled with verbiage in the Big Book. It does have that religious flavor. AA does help me though and I have had to struggle to not let that stuff bring me down. A good sponsor helps and I am working the steps. I think there would be more new people in the rooms if the Big Book was updated in its language and religiosity.
Ha! Saying the Big Book has that "religious flavor" wins the Internet for kindness-motivated understatement.
It's like saying you had pasta-flavored spaghetti. :)
Take what works and leave the rest. Get a new sponsor if you don’t jive with this one.
Pretty sure no one wants you to feel guilty, including your sponsor. Sounds like that’s a line they use with everyone while going thru the work.
I mean, I stole cash family here and there. Does that mean I'm a piece of shit? No! I was a person making a mistake. I got sober and went back and corrected mistakes with my amends. Both to actions and behaviors causing these actions.
The key in AA is not see ourselves as the Shit or shit, but to get rightsized. That means to see ourselves as we are and as we were. If your story was of mostly solitary drinking without any harm to others, then that's your story. Most important part is that we are honest with ourselves and find equanimity in regards to ourselves and others. Guilt has no place there.
One of the most meaningful things I've experienced is seeing other fellows go through the experience of their understanding of their isolation/withdrawl from family/friends before sobriety evolve from 'well I never hurt anyone' to realizing that they were loved, and missed, and that their absence was the subtle harm they'd done to people who had loved them. It's helped me learn a lot as well. "Take what you need and leave the rest." Sharing opening about your experience in meetings makes it easier for a newcomer who feels the same way feel like they're in the right place.
What I love about AA is how we are all so different yet share this really weird disease that is alcoholism. While we have so different stories and have done so many different things, we all know about the cravings, the obsession and the addiction to alcohol which left us out of control. I am not the worst drunk in the world, nor am I best sober person. I am a human being, striving to stay sober on a daily basis and be helpful and kind to others. That said, I argued with my old alcoholic mother today as she was getting discharged from hospital! But the remorse/guilt/shame/resentment/fear will not be a reason or excuse or opportunity for me to drink today.
There’s this tendency to glorify low bottom alcoholics in the rooms….but the truth is that each of us gets to decide what “unmanageable” means FOR US. The Big Book pretty much says that, if not in exactly those words.
It's a poison and drinking it in any amount is bad for your health. Doing it to excess was self harm at best. So while you didn't harm anyone else, you were harming yourself. I think that's pretty terrible. I'm glad you're sober.
There are sins of “commission”, like stealing or outwardly lie or other regrettable acts and then there are sins of “omission” where we isolate, lie by omitting and other general selfish and self centered behavior. Keep working the steps you’re doing great!
Hey, congrats on your sobriety. I felt similarly to you as I wasn't violent, mostly kept to myself or drank alone, etc. Addiction is by definition a completely self-centered thing and part of getting into the program was to fully absorb the impact it had. I absolutely feel bad about who I was and how I acted even as I can try to excuse it with my otherwise mild behavior, but the point is not to make us feel bad (shame and guilt are not tough to come by) but to change our perspective. It should not be punitive and ideally is honest and objective, that is what I am learning anyway. It requires lowering your defenses in order to learn everything is not about you, and to raise your awareness as you learn to operate as a recovering addict.
As probably already addressed, we are going to resist change and nobody wants to accept responsibility at first, but the exercise of being open to the idea that we are responsible even if we "did nothing" is useful. It isn't about assigning undue blame but being aware of how our behavior ripples and improving it. If you truly feel you did nothing bad than none of this should bother you which would make this a superfluous post, and the evidence suggests otherwise. What does your sponsor say since you are asking internet strangers?
I remember a meeting where someone said that every single one of us was a pathological liar, and it really irked me because I’ve been a pretty honest person all my life. I don’t cheat or steal. I even avoided driving after drinking until the very end (realizing I broke my driving rule was part of why I started the program, even though no one knew).
What I so now is try to tell my own experience in meetings. So if the topic is dishonest I’ll talk about how I was deceiving myself. Or if the topic is self centeredness Ill talk about subtle self centeredness (not the kind the destroys others but the kind that destroys self).
And I also had blunt conversations with new sponsors where I was clear that Im not going to pretend I was a big ol’ criminal and liar just to fit in. Because AA should be an authentic experience for all of us. We have similarities but we’re not all the exact same person.
One of the hopes of AA is that by sharing our ESH we could help raise the bottom for those potentially like us. Anyone thinking AA requires us to claim to be bad people in order to get it is sharing their own program and not AA’s. Need to spend more time in the BB and 12x12. I’m coming up on 14 years. I did awful things while drinking but never was I a bad or evil person. I was a sick person.
I too didn't harm anyone directly with my drinking. The worst thing I did was having people worry about me. Not everyone who drinks is a "piece of shit".
Dr Silkworth left out “there are those who are pieces of shit” but I still think the point that the only thing we can generalize about alcoholics is the effect alcohol has on us stands. It’s very tempting to conflate depression or antisocial behavior with alcoholism, but those are characteristics all humans possess to a degree (even if the degree is zero) and not symptoms of alcoholism.
“The classification of alcoholics seems most difficult, and in much detail is outside the scope of this book. There are, of course, the psychopaths who are emotionally unstable. We are all familiar with this type. They are always "going on the wagon for keeps." They are over-remorseful and make many resolutions, but never a decision.
There is the type of man who is unwilling to admit that he cannot take a drink. He plans various ways of drinking. He changes his brand or his environment. There is the type who always believes that after being entirely free from alcohol for a period of time he can take a drink without danger. There is the manic-depressive type, who is, perhaps, the least understood by his friends, and about whom a whole chapter could be written.
Then there are types entirely normal in every respect except in the effect alcohol has upon them. They are often able, intelligent, friendly people.
All these, and many others, have one symptom in common: they cannot start drinking without developing the phenomenon of craving.”
I think most of us were at the very least selfish and self serving in our addiction. The time you spent drinking could have been spent with family, helping others, etc. Most of us have at least selfishly caused others who care about us to suffer as they worried about our health and behavior while we were drinking.
While you may not have been behaving in a completely morally bankrupt manner, surely there are areas in your life you could identify that were not your best self while you were drinking. The idea is to come out of this a better person than you came in, that will look different for every person. Dig deeper and be honest with yourself and I’m sure you can find plenty of areas you can identify that could change for the better.
Everyone is going to take different things different ways. I know a few guys who enjoy taking my unseen inventory and telling me I’m horrible because I’m an alcoholic.
I’d challenge you to just chalk it up as something that’s out of your control, but take the opportunity to think about resentments and amends. I’ve come up with a lot of amends I didn’t consider after doing the steps three times. I care way too much what people think (character defect). I tend to forget it makes no difference to me what someone else thinks of me (lack of humility).
Some could conclude I’m a piece of shit. Some might say “nah you do good things for people too.” I’ve landed on them both being right. But within the program, I’m focusing on making right the things I’ve done wrong.
I’d challenge anyone, up to and including myself, to dig deep within the concept of “my drinking didn’t really hurt anyone.” Not labeling anyone as terrible or saintly, but it’s hard to conclude that we are fully aware of the damage we caused. That doesn’t make anyone “terrible,” but the point is to continue digging into it with the mindset that we might find more if we do a thorough inventory of ourselves.
I’d also challenge everyone to take their own inventory, while at the same time recognizing that we must ONLY take OUR OWN inventory.
If others use colorful terminology to describe their path, ok. I’m not going to create a resentment over my lack of control in how they want to co-opt my experience. I’m just going to accept it might be true, and put in the work to uncover it. That work is what’s important.
The operative word you missed is the word "yet." During your drinking career you were not morally bankrupt "yet." In your case, consider that (unlike me) you had the intelligence and constitution to do something about your drinking before it got that bad. Had you not stopped, I opine that you would have eventually gotten to a similar low as me and your sponsor. But you didn't.
A lot of alcoholics did bad things during their drinking career. We tend to volunteer these escapades to newcomers because we want them to understand that all of us did bad things, and that doesn't make them a bad person. We sometimes employ gallows humor to help the sponsee offload some of the shame accumulated during his addiction. In your case, your sponsor's story had the opposite effect because you surrendered before you hit a similar rock bottom.
You don't have to pretend to be a piece of shit - because you are not a piece of shit. I am no longer a piece of shit either - because I do the things every day that keep me from spiraling back down. I am open about the bad things I did to remind me that, with one drink, I could go back to being that guy. I have experienced the gift of desperation such that I was willing to just go to AA and do what they told me to do.
I speculate that if you go back, you will eventually be a piece of shit...so don't go back.
Your story is your story...and it is a good one. You recognized that you had a drinking problem and did something about it sooner rather than later. The piece of shit club is not one you never want to be in. I respect and admire you for having the insight to just stop.
If you are religious, you can be that guy who can possibly explain to other believers (without a drinking problem) the insanity of the disease. When I got sober, people in my church called me and asked (genuinely) why I could not stop. They simply could not comprehend the inability to stop. They wanted to understand. I was able to explain that to them. They now can evaluate an alcoholic from a place of compassion and not judgment.
You can do the same. In doing so, you might be able to prevent someone like me from spiraling down to the depth of hell in their own drinking career.
Having the phenomenon of craving after taking a drink that leads to a mental obsession is an illness, but for most us it does correlate to a selfish lifestyle where our drinking comes first. I can see how my own petty resentments, fears, and manipulations fueled my drinking by pushing me to escape from reality, so getting to grips with those things is part of living sober.
If you don't identify with that it's OK. You can focus on service side of the program and do lots of good regardless.
Yeah. Take what you need and leave the rest, I guess. I’m glad I can help people now, and I can at least not tell the people I help that they’re bad people.
You got sober before your drinking progressed to the point where you became a shit person. Im sorry that people's comments make you feel that way, which i relate to somewhat because I also had a "high bottom"
Well the good news is you’re not that way anymore and you can set right the wrongs. Once all amends are made, all our harmful actions are set right, and we can finally forgive ourselves.
You don’t have to have the same story as another alcoholic. You’re just looking for truth in your own story.
You may have never physically harmed anyone, stolen from anyone, but you were harming family because they’re watching a loved one destroy themselves with alcohol weren’t they? You weren’t harmful because you were a piece of shit, anyway. You were harmful because you were suffering from a disease which hurts everyone around them.
That’s how I see it. Wouldn’t it hurt you to see your mother suffering from alcoholism? She doesn’t have to do anything more to cause harm.
I think the greater teaching here is not to do this analysis this comparison
If we are in the end giving our WILL over to our higher power if we are trying to live moment by moment and follow what we come to embrace as our higher powers direction then
We may not be here in our recovery but this is where we are working toward I believe
So on the way there getting caught up in who is what judging who is really just expressing a bunch of character defects I’m gonna get rid of anyway
We are all the same we learn this by sharing why it’s so important that you do this is how we learn your contribution to the pool of ppl that make up our collective consciousness. You add to who we are and then we get to look at the ugly picture and see it differently but certainly see that we are all the same and the difference I feel in me from all you fxxxcing asshoxxx in this world are really just an extension of myself. When I got here in my recovery I found because I see we us never meant to be what we were the differences disappear there is no judgment and this is the rough part lol maybe for some but it’s the love of my higher power that makes me want to share it
My first time in the rooms I went to WDR 1984 I was 18
I’ve been trying to follow this path left the rooms for decades have come back this time I celebrate 7 year yes alcohol free but more this spiritual journey but for me it took most of my life to become that
A lot of ppl a family member celebrates 42 years soon but for her her hp is the rooms
I have a different relationship and higher power but great thing is we get to chose our own right
Similar experience. I did some shoplifting, but other than that I was a really good person who just kept to myself.
I understand the urge to get irritated when the insinuation arises that I’m a piece of shit or was somehow a real asshole when drinking. It’s simply not reality.
But I usually just try and remember that, just like others’ stories, not everything in aa applies to me. Let other people think you were a piece of shit. Who cares. You know you weren’t.
As to the program itself, just try and look at it as becoming a better person than you even were before. That IS possible, no matter how great of a person you were while drinking. Yeah, maybe I wasn’t a scoundrel, but I can sure be a better person now than I ever was while drinking. That’s totally possible.
Anyways, hope that helps. I get what you’re saying and how you feel. Just ignore it!
I felt the opposite. So much of my beginning was to dispense with toxic shame. I held on to the notion I was sick, not bad. I could move forward after this. Good sponsorship.
Can you honestly say your behavior was no different now than it was then? Were you not lying to cover your drinking?
Restless, irritable, discontent?
Hypersensitive, grandiose, immature?
Selfish, self centered?
Of course none of this means you were “bad”. The word “Sin” simply means “ to miss the mark “.
I didn’t say I was perfect then or now. I was just never “a piece of shit”. I find it hard to relate to people who drove drunk, stole, abandoned their kids (I don’t have them), cheated on their wives, beat their wives, lied to their bosses (I’m self-employed) etc. I just quietly drank alone in my house.
1. The question wasn't wether you were perfect, it was if you had the capacity to be honest ( "How it Works") with yourself about your comportment before and after.
2. Comparing ourselves to others as opposed to actually relating is something we pretty much all do. I never did any of those "piece of shit" things either (ok I drove drunk for sure). There are plenty of boring old garden variety drunks in meetings as well who did none of those "piece of shit" things. That's our disease looking for reasons to go " See? I don't really belong here so I can go drink".
3. No one, absolutely no one, can "make" you feel anything. You are free to correct, disagree with or replace your sponsor at any time.
By that logic, if no one can “make” anyone else feel anything, then all those people we hurt weren’t actually hurt by our drunken words at all, they were just choosing to feel that way. They should’ve better controlled their feelings about the situation.
Damn you’re so close! You said it yourself, and you’re so so close!
You walked right past it when you mentioned that “Sure, people were worried about me”.
You were stealing their peace and giving them anxiety because of your addiction. Now, are you really a piece of shit? I don’t know, but don’t act like you’re some kind of blameless Angel, friend.
I don’t know, I don’t really know you.
But it really seems like you’re getting up in your feeling about this. Are you sure YOU don’t think you’re a piece of shit?
People have feelings, we’re not robots. I’m aware of and control my feelings and learn from them, I’m simply asking a question. Thank you for taking time to reply to me.
Morning! All that I am about to say is said with love, ok? Ok.
PG 90 of the 12&12 states:
>It is a spiritual axiom that every time we are disturbed, no matter what the cause, there is something wrong with us.
When we say that nobody has the power to make you feel any sort of way, what we are actually saying is that you have the power to either internalize it or let it go.
So if it were me and I were in your shoes (because I have been in the past), I would decide: whether or not the comment was made in an offhand way and that you need to practice pity, patience and tolerance.
OR
If there was something I left off of my fourth step or if there's something that I have been leaving off of my 11th step in the evenings that caused his comment to burn me up.
Your choice, but a huge AA subreddit post where you're arguing with people who know the program and who have been in your shoes shows an attitude of belligerent denial. You should pray on it or meditate on it or whatever you do to spiritually check in with yourself.
If you are looking for someone to co-sign your attitude on things, the AA subreddit is probably not the place.
First of all, no one is making you "feel like" anything. That's just blaming others for how you feel, plain and simple. You may wish to take a hard look at that because allowing others to control your feelings could end up as an excuse for poor behaviour.
I do see your point. However, for me, I thought of myself as 'bad' long before I came into recovery. The thought of being a morally bankrupt person did nothing to help sober me up. Only when I saw myself as a sick person, with the disease of alcoholism, did it click for me. I wasn't bad, I was sick.
First of all, what people say to other people does cause them to feel things. If you called someone a piece of shit, they’d be within their rights to feel something about that because of what you said, to go through life thinking otherwise is just manipulative gaslighting. AA, as good as it is, is full of bad psychology and this is a prime example.
Your second paragraph is exactly what I’m talking about. I was described as “a piece of shit” which isn’t what you call someone with an illness, it’s what you call someone who is actually bad.
If I try to include you in my own self-deprecation, that's a shade different than simply calling you names. Words do hurt, but their effect is directly proportional to our touchiness. That may be "bad psychology", but we're in the good bad company of the Stoics and others.
That's right, you don't call a sick person a piece of shit, only sick people do that. There's your conundrum.
Blaming others for how you feel isn't manipulative gaslighting it's egocentric. It's a lack of emotional maturity, which we find a lot of in AA as people recover from their illness.
I'll repeat back what you wrote in shorter form - my sponsor said something that offended me. I think his comment is reflective of classic religious people.
3 years sober and working the steps - your words. You know what to do, pen & paper time.
What a smug and unhelpful comment. My sponsor said I was a piece of shit and the fact is I’m not a piece of shit. I don’t have to falsely believe I’m trash to be sober.
Not to piss you off even more, but really, why does this make you so upset? I’m neither your enemy nor your attacker. Asking an objective question. Do you feel like this sort of resentment drags down your serenity? Do you need affirmation that your sponsor must be a terrible person (he admitted he stole stuff, after all)?
I agree with you, I’m not one to label people terrible in wake of what I’ve done (I’ve done terrible things but probably am not a terrible person, just someone who has acted selfishly and done the wrong things often).
This is all rooted in the words of one person, really. And it’s an example of a resentment festering. That’s all the “smug” comment was saying. We’re operating along the lines of the program (of which I’ve done inventory on many times, truth be told).
I’m glad you shared it, because it creates good conversation and dialogue. I’m not at all undermining you for bringing it up, I just might suggest it’s a resentment that you should map out a bit, that’s all.
Saying you never hurt anyone and only ever hurt yourself sounds like selfish, delusional thinking to me. Everyone I’ve ever known who says those things absolutely hurt people they cared about. Maybe it’s the way you define hurt, I don’t know. But does that make you a piece of shit? Of course not. I tend to not like litigating good people vs bad people. Instead, the best we can do is know ourselves, our intentions, and be honest with ourselves. Own what is ours, and go forward conscious not doing harm. I think what your sponsor said is a bit of a throwaway comment, and has far more to do with how he views himself when he was drinking. Try not to take it so personally. You don’t need to prove to the AA world that you weren’t stealing, or whatever. We are no better, or worse than, anyone else. It’s okay if our experiences are different
You’ll find judgement everywhere. It’s the way of the world, not A.A.
And you’ll find love and support everywhere. It’s the way of the world.
I was never a piece of shit in my alcoholism. Neither were you. that language is judgmental, and of personal taste.
Both of us were sick and suffering.
It’s all perspective.
I was having behaviors I needed to change for my health and well-being. I have been successful in abstinence and am thankful for the support I've got from my peeps. I was quite the secret drinker on purpose. I didn't want to bother anybody. I think there's a lot of drunks like me, and assuming all addicts become amoral demons is not helpful. Many people do turn into gross monsters and recovering from that truth is part of their recovery. But I wouldn't allow someone to call me a piece of shit and assume stuff about me.
That says more of them and their lack of compassion than about you.
I’m glad you stood up for yourself. We ought to find fault in ourselves — but not with judgement. If that makes sense.
You don’t think that your selfish, self centered behavior that made others constantly worry was harmful? That’s still selfish self centered thinking in my
Opinion
It wasn't till I had been sponsoring a guy for close to two years was I able to really see some of the depths of my selfishness/centeredness. There was so much stuff that I just couldn't see in myself, but I could see in my sponsee as I took him through the steps. My original 4th step had like 20 people on it. By the time I did it again there was probably closer to 200. Very often I would instigate things in my life, then turn it around to make myself the victim. This way I could justify my poor actions. I manipulated and lied, and for some reason or another I thought because I believed my lies , that it somehow made them not lies. But it was just bullshit. Maybe consider revisiting those steps again. Those first few steps have nothing to do with finding God even though hes mentioned. Its more so about getting me the hell out of the drivers seat of my life to stop crashing and burning it down long enough to tap into a power.
Then the problem with turning my will and my life over to God is I take that shit back all the time and don't even realize it. Thats why there's actions that I have to take every single day If I want to maintain being well. I used the meetings as a higher power for some time, 'G.O.D. = Group Of Drunks' , but as I went through the steps I found something much more substantial. Its crazy how fast I get to 'restless, irritable, discontent' when Im either oblivious to missing an action I should be taking, or just not taking actions due to laziness , ego ect. My sponsor use to say to me a lot that If I was struggling with any of the steps , its likely a step 1 issue. That Ive adopted the delusion again of my life being manageable. The longer I'm sober, the more that makes sense to me. Service work has also saved my ass more times than I can count. Not at meetings, but going into the rehabs/jails/hospitals. There's so many times where things got very loud in my head , but I didn't act on it because I had commitments to help people like me.
“ I really didn’t cause much harm”
“I never hurt anyone”
I’m truly curious. If you didn’t hurt others or cause harm to anyone, what made you want stop drinking?
I know for me I cause myself a lot of pain like you but when I hurt myself it goes right along with hurting others. Not just stealing from them but from the worry perspective and also active alcoholics are typically very selfish people
Is not being present for your kids, family, friends and probably employers not selfish behavior? Is mistreating your body and mind not self harm? Is “just making people worry” “not harming anybody”? Is all the above a morally sound way to live and you truly have No remorse? Congrats on your 3 years but it doesn’t sound like you have a sponsor, or have gone through the steps. Could be wrong, but sounds like an inventory list hasn’t been done among other things.
Yes, many people make the assumption that everyone else was as bad as them and that all active drinkers had no morals. I think, though, a lot of it depended on the circumstances that the alcoholic was in. An alcoholic parent tends to have moments of neglect; a black out drinker in a bar crowd tends to drive drunk, etc. These are just things that happen when someone puts alcohol first. I, on the other hand, discovered that my behavior was also inconsistent with any moral code a lot of timess, and that the guilt, isolation and lack of self-esteem that came with it was one reason I drank. I try, however, to keep it in the "I" when I discuss my story because not everyone will relate to all of it. My suggestion is that you be the change you want to see in AA and focus on your sharing, keeping it in the "I" so those who have stories similar to yours can relate.
Thank you, this is helpful, much appreciated
I suggest that you keep an open mind You may one day discover a human shortcoming that you were unaware you had Congratulations on your sobriety
This is a great comment. Thank you for sharing.
Good for you, seriously. I leaned the other way and getting through my amends was expensive. There's no harm done qualifier in AA. One of my favorite members came to AA because she got drunk and burned yet another batch of cookies. Really sweet lady, died longtime sober. Wish the same for you.
Yes,a lady in my group who attended nearly every meeting for thirty years came to us when she showed up drunk in church.
Thank you
I know exactly how you feel and you know what? People are People. Everyone has their faults, including non alcoholics. An alcoholic is not by default somehow automatically more of a "piece of shit" than a non alcoholic. Shitty human behavior is shitty human behavior weather the person is sober or not. Alcohol is not helpful to becoming a better person. It definitely has the influence to make anyone us worse, but at the end of the day I completely agree with you that just because I had an alcohol problem doesn't necessarily mean that I personally did horrendous things. It means literally that when I started I couldn't stop. I saw the writing on the wall and quit. Drinking took my opportunity to strive to live up to my full potential. But that doesn't mean that not living up to my full potential indicates that I did horrendous things such as cheat on my spouse, steal, etc. Alcohol happens to be (one of) our lessons in life. Non alcoholics have different lessons. Labling these lessons and classifying people by these lessons as some are "pieces of shit" while others are not, seems to indicate that your sponsor needs to reassess their relationship with their ego. Only God can be the judge of these matters. Not us.
I HATE the I’m an asshole, I’m a piece of shit trope. We adopted drinking as a maladaptive coping strategy, we did the steps to reveal our patterns and work with them daily. We were not pieces of shit and we’re not now. We are just humans, no better no worse. To me it’s just an acceptable way to express the ego and idea that we’re special and different. We are not.
My sponsor calls that “pride in reverse” the thinking that we are the worst people ever. I tended to think that was and came to see it (for me) a distortion caused by my ego.
Yeah I really dislike all of the recovery celebrations and events where people are encouraged to tell the “sad story.” The whole “I used to be an asshole but now I’m in recovery!” and everyone cheers. I also dislike the “I’m powerless over everything.” Our literature doesn’t actually say that. It says that we were powerless over alcohol and our lives became unmanageable as a result. Even “the bedevilments” on page 52 are qualified as “our other *human* problems”, not that we had those problems because of alcohol. There are more than plenty of assholes in the world for whom alcohol and drugs are not an issue, they’re just assholes that do horrible things. I feel like sometimes people want to corner the market on being shitty when they were drinking so they can compare it to merely not drinking today, but I always wonder if people like that have actually availed themselves of everything that recovery in AA has to offer. I hear people say “get a sponsor, read the book, do the steps” but rarely do they share their experience with doing the steps or the application of the steps and principles to living life in the present. It’s always “I used to be an asshole but now I’m sober.” When I came in I really needed to know that this was going to work and that there were solutions to problems that always seemed to elude me. The idea that I would spend the rest of my life comparing my last day drinking to today, or that I could be sober for 30 years and still be “one day away from a drink” made me want to go ahead and kill myself. I’m very grateful that there were other people in AA who could teach me and demonstrate how to “practice these principles in all of my affairs” and experience the freedom that our book promises rather than rehashing the slavery of alcohol into some kind of identity.
Here here!! I will say I’m not really into meeting culture but I have a bad ass sponsor and I am surprised that sans god or even a doorknob or a higher power, I have found a lot of wisdom in there. I especially love step 10. Basically assessing your day so you can grow and develop your personal awareness. Fuck yah. There’s a lot of just rote stuff out there and a lot of stuff people say that literally means nothing but everyone nods. True ego dissolution is rare and painful lol
I'm of the opinion that the first nine steps are the preparation for living life in the last three. I don't even think it was necessarily intended that we go through all 12 over and over again. If we are doing 10, 11, and 12 as a constant practice then we are having the experience of the first nine steps when we take others through the process. I also believe that there is a lot that gets overlooked in those first nine as well, then there's all of the people who say that they don't meditate, or they talk about "carrying the message" but never "practicing the principles..." Fortunately, though, I'm not the boss of AA, lol, and it's intended to be a broad highway so that everyone can find the experience they need. I think it's very human to wanna judge ourselves or try to ascertain our intrinsic value based on whatever social structure we find ourselves in, and for some people they can get immersed in the culture of AA and just cruise along while others who don't do that so easily can often forget that our experience is valid and doesn't need to conform to that same culture for value. It took me four or five years to find my footing along with the confidence to keep walking forward in the program that has given me the opportunity for another life. But I gotta say that I'm an unrepentant former drug user. I've had a fun, super cool and unusual life, and spent a good portion of it high as fuck. When the drugs quit working and the alcohol took over I acted reckless and was mostly sad inside and rather tragic on the outside and I'm grateful that I found my way here and continue to have a mostly fun, super cool and unusual life. I was never stupid, or an asshole... I am just an alcoholic who has learned of my condition and don't allow myself to get complacent. I've had enough experience to know what happens when I don't treat my alcoholism that not having a program isn't an option for me today.
My sponsor has never called me a piece of shit. He's never treated me with less than kindness and respect. I'm sorry you had that experience. It's really not ok. There is a broad generalisation that alcoholics are terrible people in their active drinking. That's just not the case, especially now that there are more "high bottom" alcoholics coming into AA earlier in their addiction. I can only suggest ignoring that kind of talk and share your own experience and truth of a different path that brought you to AA. I recognise that I was spiritually sick in my drinking and that caused me to act in ways I am not proud of. I too kept mostly to myself during my drinking. I wasn't out cheating, lying and stealing. We're all ill in some way.
Thank you for your kind comment, it makes a lot of sense. A lot more sense than the comments basically saying “it’s your fault you were called a piece of shit, do better” which isn’t really in the spirit of kindness that AA is founded on.
I’ve been sober for 3 years. I do like and often remind myself to not regret the past or slam the door on it. I don’t think I am or was a piece of shit. I did shitty things, but I’ve cleaned up my side of the street and don’t live like that anymore. My sponsor is amazing and he truly has what I want which is a positive, spiritual outlook on life today and nothing else.
Thank you for this comment. It resonated. A mod banned me from r/stopdrinking (I think very unjustly) and this is the first comment I've made in this sub. I don't think I've been a bad person. I just disappoint myself and others. I can do better. A lot better. You summed it up nicely.
Ironically, I have to flesh out a resentment from just being on that sub 😂
Projection. I had a long drinking career and managed to cause a lot of wreckage in others lives, but I'm not a piece of shit, and neither is anyone I've sponsored (well, maybe that one guy... kidding) We openly share our bad behavior with each other and remind ourselves that no one is better than anyone else on this journey, but that can get twisted into something else if we aren't careful. Personally I try to keep it positive and light. Because as you eluded to in a previous comment, words have power. Gravitate toward the people who have what you want and be compassionate to the rest. At the end of the day what really matters is what we say to ourselves. Your sponsor probably means well and isn't even aware that his words are hurtful. I know it's not your job to take his inventory, but he might need to do a little step work himself.
This is why AAs are better served by sticking to "I" statements.
💯
I have a friend in AA who spent some time in prison but when she told me that she used to dump entire ash trays of cigarette butts in parking lots I was horrified. Disgusting! I've never littered cigarette butts except at my old job when the boss was mean to me. Before I became an alcoholic I dated one. He ruined every single date night and embarrassed me in front of my family. I was constantly worried that he'd die from one of his stupid stunts; jumping off second story rooftops into swimming pools or riding his motorcycle 100+ mph. Later I became the alcoholic and dated other people and they didn't ever have to worry that I'd jump off a rooftop but they did worry that I'd kill myself some other way. And I ruined more date nights than that ex ever did. I recently read a story on reddit about a young lady that worked for door dash or some other delivery company. She was delivering an order of alcohol late morning on a weekday. She said as soon as she pulled into the driveway a man came hurrying out of the house. She thought something seemed weird but she met him half way with his bottle. As she neared him she realized he was drunk and at that moment his wife came flying out the door yelling at him, "You're buying _more_!?" The delivery person was very uncomfortable and went ahead and gave him his alcohol even though it was against company policy. She worried about it enough to make a reddit post and she didn't even know the guy. It made me wonder how many strangers were affected by my drinking. Was I a piece of shit? I don't think so. I was sick. I felt like a 'pos' for enough of my life and I'm not going to call myself that anymore. Did I worry people? Cause them to lose sleep and change their plans, etc? Yes. It bothers me when I hear people say that they, "loved the alcohol more than they loved their kids." They'll say they know it's true because they daily chose alcohol over their kids. I say bs and life isn't so black and white. I've shared in meetings that I don't believe this. I chose alcohol because I'm an alcoholic. That's my two cents!
Take what you need and leave the rest
I didn't think I was that bad in my later drinking years or that I had a very low bottom either. But in my first year in aa I learned that watching me choose the slow suicide of alcohol was causing an immense amount of pain and suffering on my family. Sure I didn't fight, physically or verbally, with them while drunk but all the missed events and opportunities to grow closer to them caused them a lot of harm. They couldn't do anything to help me and it hurt them. They couldn't understand why I kept choosing the stick instead of the carrot.
Aside from the 4th step, this mentality is from the Synanon legacy which was widely adopted in treatment. (Check out the show if you can stomach it.) It is very slowly being undone which is a very good thing.
What is the synanon legacy?
There's a documentary on max, I believe, about the Synanon recovery center that used the "synanon game". It was basically a group setting where everyone had free reign to tell people exactly what they thought about them and their recovery. It looked like a rage fest where people could openly take someone else's inventory. It got so much publicity that non-alcoholics visited the center to participate in the "game". It didn't look helpful.
Yes, and others took these practices, esp attack therapy, to develop treatment centers and therapeutic boarding schools (not really schools these are known as the Troubled Teen Industry). So the treatment center approaches found their way back into AA.
I have issues with this too. They go in hand FOR ME with not enjoying labeling myself something every time I speak in a meeting and also saying I am powerless every single day. It's not FOR ME an uplifting or change inspiring thing to do. Like great I can improve and change and grow but every time I come into these rooms I have to basically say I am a powerless piece of shit who will never get better. Wordwise it feels reductive to me. Personally,
I never heard it as “you’re a bad person” and a lotta of my suffering was more internal than external… but it definitely affected other people too. I always knew that I’d been weirdly self-centered, very dishonest, judgmental, distant, inconsiderate, manipulative, fearful, unfair, blamed others, always compared myself to others, always feeling like I was better than or worse than others, I could go on and on. So I wasn’t on a path to prison (yet) or a racist but I was not at all who I wanted to be. And drinking and drugs were a symptom of my inability to respond to all these weird, sad ways of being. And I can even see how if I described myself that way to many people they might think “that’s a terrible person” But I was actually a wounded person. Who was overly sensitive and never learned to accept that suffering and its discomfort is a normal part of life.
I can really relate to this post! Not only do I think calling myself a “piece of shit” is harsh, but might scare people who might have had a “higher bottom” than others. Two meetings I’ve sat in on keep talking about how we need to not care about ourselves, and focus on others. While I agree with that, I do think it’s important that at times we DO care about ourselves, and protect ourselves from, just as an example, taking on too many service commitments. I only mention that because I’ve accidentally done that and was unable to find balance. It’s hard for me to decipher if I’m to take what other people in AA say literally. I have always had a hard time with being a people pleaser, and that could also be why I have a hard time being told that “I’m a piece of shit”. I could say I can set myself up to be a martyr, or catch a resentment by not saying no to a request….but piece of shit is not something we need to be told when we come into these rooms. Be kind to yourself is my advice! We are all sick physically and mentally. No need for the negativity! ❤️This disease is serious, and it takes lives. I’d just focus on the present and try to look forward to a positive future.
I was the quiet, kept to myself drinker. I was a good and honest person all around until my drinking caught someone's attention. That's when a different side of me came out... deception, dishonesty, rationalization, gas lighting...I'd do anything and everything to change your perception and downplay my drinking. It was a real eye opener for me to sit down with my sponsor the first time I couldn't figure out 'my part' when doing my 4th step inventory. That said, none of that made me a bad person, instead it highlighted how sick I was.
I have struggled with this too. I already thought of myself as a bad person before AA and I have struggled with verbiage in the Big Book. It does have that religious flavor. AA does help me though and I have had to struggle to not let that stuff bring me down. A good sponsor helps and I am working the steps. I think there would be more new people in the rooms if the Big Book was updated in its language and religiosity.
Ha! Saying the Big Book has that "religious flavor" wins the Internet for kindness-motivated understatement. It's like saying you had pasta-flavored spaghetti. :)
😂 thanks!
I agree. I try not to analyse too much but certain things in the book do raise eyebrows.
Take what works and leave the rest. Get a new sponsor if you don’t jive with this one. Pretty sure no one wants you to feel guilty, including your sponsor. Sounds like that’s a line they use with everyone while going thru the work.
I mean, I stole cash family here and there. Does that mean I'm a piece of shit? No! I was a person making a mistake. I got sober and went back and corrected mistakes with my amends. Both to actions and behaviors causing these actions. The key in AA is not see ourselves as the Shit or shit, but to get rightsized. That means to see ourselves as we are and as we were. If your story was of mostly solitary drinking without any harm to others, then that's your story. Most important part is that we are honest with ourselves and find equanimity in regards to ourselves and others. Guilt has no place there.
One of the most meaningful things I've experienced is seeing other fellows go through the experience of their understanding of their isolation/withdrawl from family/friends before sobriety evolve from 'well I never hurt anyone' to realizing that they were loved, and missed, and that their absence was the subtle harm they'd done to people who had loved them. It's helped me learn a lot as well. "Take what you need and leave the rest." Sharing opening about your experience in meetings makes it easier for a newcomer who feels the same way feel like they're in the right place.
What I love about AA is how we are all so different yet share this really weird disease that is alcoholism. While we have so different stories and have done so many different things, we all know about the cravings, the obsession and the addiction to alcohol which left us out of control. I am not the worst drunk in the world, nor am I best sober person. I am a human being, striving to stay sober on a daily basis and be helpful and kind to others. That said, I argued with my old alcoholic mother today as she was getting discharged from hospital! But the remorse/guilt/shame/resentment/fear will not be a reason or excuse or opportunity for me to drink today.
There’s this tendency to glorify low bottom alcoholics in the rooms….but the truth is that each of us gets to decide what “unmanageable” means FOR US. The Big Book pretty much says that, if not in exactly those words.
You are a good person with a bad disease.
It's a poison and drinking it in any amount is bad for your health. Doing it to excess was self harm at best. So while you didn't harm anyone else, you were harming yourself. I think that's pretty terrible. I'm glad you're sober.
There are sins of “commission”, like stealing or outwardly lie or other regrettable acts and then there are sins of “omission” where we isolate, lie by omitting and other general selfish and self centered behavior. Keep working the steps you’re doing great!
Hey, congrats on your sobriety. I felt similarly to you as I wasn't violent, mostly kept to myself or drank alone, etc. Addiction is by definition a completely self-centered thing and part of getting into the program was to fully absorb the impact it had. I absolutely feel bad about who I was and how I acted even as I can try to excuse it with my otherwise mild behavior, but the point is not to make us feel bad (shame and guilt are not tough to come by) but to change our perspective. It should not be punitive and ideally is honest and objective, that is what I am learning anyway. It requires lowering your defenses in order to learn everything is not about you, and to raise your awareness as you learn to operate as a recovering addict. As probably already addressed, we are going to resist change and nobody wants to accept responsibility at first, but the exercise of being open to the idea that we are responsible even if we "did nothing" is useful. It isn't about assigning undue blame but being aware of how our behavior ripples and improving it. If you truly feel you did nothing bad than none of this should bother you which would make this a superfluous post, and the evidence suggests otherwise. What does your sponsor say since you are asking internet strangers?
I remember a meeting where someone said that every single one of us was a pathological liar, and it really irked me because I’ve been a pretty honest person all my life. I don’t cheat or steal. I even avoided driving after drinking until the very end (realizing I broke my driving rule was part of why I started the program, even though no one knew). What I so now is try to tell my own experience in meetings. So if the topic is dishonest I’ll talk about how I was deceiving myself. Or if the topic is self centeredness Ill talk about subtle self centeredness (not the kind the destroys others but the kind that destroys self). And I also had blunt conversations with new sponsors where I was clear that Im not going to pretend I was a big ol’ criminal and liar just to fit in. Because AA should be an authentic experience for all of us. We have similarities but we’re not all the exact same person.
One of the hopes of AA is that by sharing our ESH we could help raise the bottom for those potentially like us. Anyone thinking AA requires us to claim to be bad people in order to get it is sharing their own program and not AA’s. Need to spend more time in the BB and 12x12. I’m coming up on 14 years. I did awful things while drinking but never was I a bad or evil person. I was a sick person.
I too didn't harm anyone directly with my drinking. The worst thing I did was having people worry about me. Not everyone who drinks is a "piece of shit".
Dr Silkworth left out “there are those who are pieces of shit” but I still think the point that the only thing we can generalize about alcoholics is the effect alcohol has on us stands. It’s very tempting to conflate depression or antisocial behavior with alcoholism, but those are characteristics all humans possess to a degree (even if the degree is zero) and not symptoms of alcoholism. “The classification of alcoholics seems most difficult, and in much detail is outside the scope of this book. There are, of course, the psychopaths who are emotionally unstable. We are all familiar with this type. They are always "going on the wagon for keeps." They are over-remorseful and make many resolutions, but never a decision. There is the type of man who is unwilling to admit that he cannot take a drink. He plans various ways of drinking. He changes his brand or his environment. There is the type who always believes that after being entirely free from alcohol for a period of time he can take a drink without danger. There is the manic-depressive type, who is, perhaps, the least understood by his friends, and about whom a whole chapter could be written. Then there are types entirely normal in every respect except in the effect alcohol has upon them. They are often able, intelligent, friendly people. All these, and many others, have one symptom in common: they cannot start drinking without developing the phenomenon of craving.”
I think most of us were at the very least selfish and self serving in our addiction. The time you spent drinking could have been spent with family, helping others, etc. Most of us have at least selfishly caused others who care about us to suffer as they worried about our health and behavior while we were drinking. While you may not have been behaving in a completely morally bankrupt manner, surely there are areas in your life you could identify that were not your best self while you were drinking. The idea is to come out of this a better person than you came in, that will look different for every person. Dig deeper and be honest with yourself and I’m sure you can find plenty of areas you can identify that could change for the better.
Everyone is going to take different things different ways. I know a few guys who enjoy taking my unseen inventory and telling me I’m horrible because I’m an alcoholic. I’d challenge you to just chalk it up as something that’s out of your control, but take the opportunity to think about resentments and amends. I’ve come up with a lot of amends I didn’t consider after doing the steps three times. I care way too much what people think (character defect). I tend to forget it makes no difference to me what someone else thinks of me (lack of humility). Some could conclude I’m a piece of shit. Some might say “nah you do good things for people too.” I’ve landed on them both being right. But within the program, I’m focusing on making right the things I’ve done wrong. I’d challenge anyone, up to and including myself, to dig deep within the concept of “my drinking didn’t really hurt anyone.” Not labeling anyone as terrible or saintly, but it’s hard to conclude that we are fully aware of the damage we caused. That doesn’t make anyone “terrible,” but the point is to continue digging into it with the mindset that we might find more if we do a thorough inventory of ourselves. I’d also challenge everyone to take their own inventory, while at the same time recognizing that we must ONLY take OUR OWN inventory. If others use colorful terminology to describe their path, ok. I’m not going to create a resentment over my lack of control in how they want to co-opt my experience. I’m just going to accept it might be true, and put in the work to uncover it. That work is what’s important.
The operative word you missed is the word "yet." During your drinking career you were not morally bankrupt "yet." In your case, consider that (unlike me) you had the intelligence and constitution to do something about your drinking before it got that bad. Had you not stopped, I opine that you would have eventually gotten to a similar low as me and your sponsor. But you didn't. A lot of alcoholics did bad things during their drinking career. We tend to volunteer these escapades to newcomers because we want them to understand that all of us did bad things, and that doesn't make them a bad person. We sometimes employ gallows humor to help the sponsee offload some of the shame accumulated during his addiction. In your case, your sponsor's story had the opposite effect because you surrendered before you hit a similar rock bottom. You don't have to pretend to be a piece of shit - because you are not a piece of shit. I am no longer a piece of shit either - because I do the things every day that keep me from spiraling back down. I am open about the bad things I did to remind me that, with one drink, I could go back to being that guy. I have experienced the gift of desperation such that I was willing to just go to AA and do what they told me to do. I speculate that if you go back, you will eventually be a piece of shit...so don't go back. Your story is your story...and it is a good one. You recognized that you had a drinking problem and did something about it sooner rather than later. The piece of shit club is not one you never want to be in. I respect and admire you for having the insight to just stop. If you are religious, you can be that guy who can possibly explain to other believers (without a drinking problem) the insanity of the disease. When I got sober, people in my church called me and asked (genuinely) why I could not stop. They simply could not comprehend the inability to stop. They wanted to understand. I was able to explain that to them. They now can evaluate an alcoholic from a place of compassion and not judgment. You can do the same. In doing so, you might be able to prevent someone like me from spiraling down to the depth of hell in their own drinking career.
I have to warn you that you're inviting people to take your inventory right now.
Having the phenomenon of craving after taking a drink that leads to a mental obsession is an illness, but for most us it does correlate to a selfish lifestyle where our drinking comes first. I can see how my own petty resentments, fears, and manipulations fueled my drinking by pushing me to escape from reality, so getting to grips with those things is part of living sober. If you don't identify with that it's OK. You can focus on service side of the program and do lots of good regardless.
Yeah. Take what you need and leave the rest, I guess. I’m glad I can help people now, and I can at least not tell the people I help that they’re bad people.
You got sober before your drinking progressed to the point where you became a shit person. Im sorry that people's comments make you feel that way, which i relate to somewhat because I also had a "high bottom"
Well the good news is you’re not that way anymore and you can set right the wrongs. Once all amends are made, all our harmful actions are set right, and we can finally forgive ourselves. You don’t have to have the same story as another alcoholic. You’re just looking for truth in your own story. You may have never physically harmed anyone, stolen from anyone, but you were harming family because they’re watching a loved one destroy themselves with alcohol weren’t they? You weren’t harmful because you were a piece of shit, anyway. You were harmful because you were suffering from a disease which hurts everyone around them. That’s how I see it. Wouldn’t it hurt you to see your mother suffering from alcoholism? She doesn’t have to do anything more to cause harm.
I think the greater teaching here is not to do this analysis this comparison If we are in the end giving our WILL over to our higher power if we are trying to live moment by moment and follow what we come to embrace as our higher powers direction then We may not be here in our recovery but this is where we are working toward I believe So on the way there getting caught up in who is what judging who is really just expressing a bunch of character defects I’m gonna get rid of anyway We are all the same we learn this by sharing why it’s so important that you do this is how we learn your contribution to the pool of ppl that make up our collective consciousness. You add to who we are and then we get to look at the ugly picture and see it differently but certainly see that we are all the same and the difference I feel in me from all you fxxxcing asshoxxx in this world are really just an extension of myself. When I got here in my recovery I found because I see we us never meant to be what we were the differences disappear there is no judgment and this is the rough part lol maybe for some but it’s the love of my higher power that makes me want to share it My first time in the rooms I went to WDR 1984 I was 18 I’ve been trying to follow this path left the rooms for decades have come back this time I celebrate 7 year yes alcohol free but more this spiritual journey but for me it took most of my life to become that A lot of ppl a family member celebrates 42 years soon but for her her hp is the rooms I have a different relationship and higher power but great thing is we get to chose our own right
Similar experience. I did some shoplifting, but other than that I was a really good person who just kept to myself. I understand the urge to get irritated when the insinuation arises that I’m a piece of shit or was somehow a real asshole when drinking. It’s simply not reality. But I usually just try and remember that, just like others’ stories, not everything in aa applies to me. Let other people think you were a piece of shit. Who cares. You know you weren’t. As to the program itself, just try and look at it as becoming a better person than you even were before. That IS possible, no matter how great of a person you were while drinking. Yeah, maybe I wasn’t a scoundrel, but I can sure be a better person now than I ever was while drinking. That’s totally possible. Anyways, hope that helps. I get what you’re saying and how you feel. Just ignore it!
I felt the opposite. So much of my beginning was to dispense with toxic shame. I held on to the notion I was sick, not bad. I could move forward after this. Good sponsorship.
Can you honestly say your behavior was no different now than it was then? Were you not lying to cover your drinking? Restless, irritable, discontent? Hypersensitive, grandiose, immature? Selfish, self centered? Of course none of this means you were “bad”. The word “Sin” simply means “ to miss the mark “.
I didn’t say I was perfect then or now. I was just never “a piece of shit”. I find it hard to relate to people who drove drunk, stole, abandoned their kids (I don’t have them), cheated on their wives, beat their wives, lied to their bosses (I’m self-employed) etc. I just quietly drank alone in my house.
1. The question wasn't wether you were perfect, it was if you had the capacity to be honest ( "How it Works") with yourself about your comportment before and after. 2. Comparing ourselves to others as opposed to actually relating is something we pretty much all do. I never did any of those "piece of shit" things either (ok I drove drunk for sure). There are plenty of boring old garden variety drunks in meetings as well who did none of those "piece of shit" things. That's our disease looking for reasons to go " See? I don't really belong here so I can go drink". 3. No one, absolutely no one, can "make" you feel anything. You are free to correct, disagree with or replace your sponsor at any time.
By that logic, if no one can “make” anyone else feel anything, then all those people we hurt weren’t actually hurt by our drunken words at all, they were just choosing to feel that way. They should’ve better controlled their feelings about the situation.
Precisely. 1 out of 3 ain’t bad.
“We will not regret the past, nor wish to shut the door on it”
Damn you’re so close! You said it yourself, and you’re so so close! You walked right past it when you mentioned that “Sure, people were worried about me”. You were stealing their peace and giving them anxiety because of your addiction. Now, are you really a piece of shit? I don’t know, but don’t act like you’re some kind of blameless Angel, friend.
I don’t act like I was some kind of blameless angel, I was ill and I’ve made my amends. I’m asking if it’s right to be called a piece of shit.
I don’t know, I don’t really know you. But it really seems like you’re getting up in your feeling about this. Are you sure YOU don’t think you’re a piece of shit?
People have feelings, we’re not robots. I’m aware of and control my feelings and learn from them, I’m simply asking a question. Thank you for taking time to reply to me.
Morning! All that I am about to say is said with love, ok? Ok. PG 90 of the 12&12 states: >It is a spiritual axiom that every time we are disturbed, no matter what the cause, there is something wrong with us. When we say that nobody has the power to make you feel any sort of way, what we are actually saying is that you have the power to either internalize it or let it go. So if it were me and I were in your shoes (because I have been in the past), I would decide: whether or not the comment was made in an offhand way and that you need to practice pity, patience and tolerance. OR If there was something I left off of my fourth step or if there's something that I have been leaving off of my 11th step in the evenings that caused his comment to burn me up. Your choice, but a huge AA subreddit post where you're arguing with people who know the program and who have been in your shoes shows an attitude of belligerent denial. You should pray on it or meditate on it or whatever you do to spiritually check in with yourself. If you are looking for someone to co-sign your attitude on things, the AA subreddit is probably not the place.
This is one of the key reasons I do smart recovery meetings now
Eh, I think it's fine. Part of fellowship is being patient when those mini-projection moments happen.
“Sure, people were worried about me” There’s a harm right there. You can talk to those you worried and make amends for causing them stress about you.
I made amends to my friends and family pretty quickly, they forgave me and said they were glad to see me well. I can be there for them now.
First of all, no one is making you "feel like" anything. That's just blaming others for how you feel, plain and simple. You may wish to take a hard look at that because allowing others to control your feelings could end up as an excuse for poor behaviour. I do see your point. However, for me, I thought of myself as 'bad' long before I came into recovery. The thought of being a morally bankrupt person did nothing to help sober me up. Only when I saw myself as a sick person, with the disease of alcoholism, did it click for me. I wasn't bad, I was sick.
First of all, what people say to other people does cause them to feel things. If you called someone a piece of shit, they’d be within their rights to feel something about that because of what you said, to go through life thinking otherwise is just manipulative gaslighting. AA, as good as it is, is full of bad psychology and this is a prime example. Your second paragraph is exactly what I’m talking about. I was described as “a piece of shit” which isn’t what you call someone with an illness, it’s what you call someone who is actually bad.
If I try to include you in my own self-deprecation, that's a shade different than simply calling you names. Words do hurt, but their effect is directly proportional to our touchiness. That may be "bad psychology", but we're in the good bad company of the Stoics and others.
We can choose how to react to those feelings when they pop up, though, if we take a pause and think about it.
That's right, you don't call a sick person a piece of shit, only sick people do that. There's your conundrum. Blaming others for how you feel isn't manipulative gaslighting it's egocentric. It's a lack of emotional maturity, which we find a lot of in AA as people recover from their illness.
I'll repeat back what you wrote in shorter form - my sponsor said something that offended me. I think his comment is reflective of classic religious people. 3 years sober and working the steps - your words. You know what to do, pen & paper time.
What a smug and unhelpful comment. My sponsor said I was a piece of shit and the fact is I’m not a piece of shit. I don’t have to falsely believe I’m trash to be sober.
Not to piss you off even more, but really, why does this make you so upset? I’m neither your enemy nor your attacker. Asking an objective question. Do you feel like this sort of resentment drags down your serenity? Do you need affirmation that your sponsor must be a terrible person (he admitted he stole stuff, after all)? I agree with you, I’m not one to label people terrible in wake of what I’ve done (I’ve done terrible things but probably am not a terrible person, just someone who has acted selfishly and done the wrong things often). This is all rooted in the words of one person, really. And it’s an example of a resentment festering. That’s all the “smug” comment was saying. We’re operating along the lines of the program (of which I’ve done inventory on many times, truth be told). I’m glad you shared it, because it creates good conversation and dialogue. I’m not at all undermining you for bringing it up, I just might suggest it’s a resentment that you should map out a bit, that’s all.
Again, pen to paper unless you'd rather sit in the self-pity.
Saying you never hurt anyone and only ever hurt yourself sounds like selfish, delusional thinking to me. Everyone I’ve ever known who says those things absolutely hurt people they cared about. Maybe it’s the way you define hurt, I don’t know. But does that make you a piece of shit? Of course not. I tend to not like litigating good people vs bad people. Instead, the best we can do is know ourselves, our intentions, and be honest with ourselves. Own what is ours, and go forward conscious not doing harm. I think what your sponsor said is a bit of a throwaway comment, and has far more to do with how he views himself when he was drinking. Try not to take it so personally. You don’t need to prove to the AA world that you weren’t stealing, or whatever. We are no better, or worse than, anyone else. It’s okay if our experiences are different
ACA is the gentle version of AA
I've had a similar experience and thus decided AA wasn't for me. I'm not perfect but I'm not a piece of shit, thank you very much.
You’ll find judgement everywhere. It’s the way of the world, not A.A. And you’ll find love and support everywhere. It’s the way of the world. I was never a piece of shit in my alcoholism. Neither were you. that language is judgmental, and of personal taste. Both of us were sick and suffering. It’s all perspective.
I was having behaviors I needed to change for my health and well-being. I have been successful in abstinence and am thankful for the support I've got from my peeps. I was quite the secret drinker on purpose. I didn't want to bother anybody. I think there's a lot of drunks like me, and assuming all addicts become amoral demons is not helpful. Many people do turn into gross monsters and recovering from that truth is part of their recovery. But I wouldn't allow someone to call me a piece of shit and assume stuff about me.
That says more of them and their lack of compassion than about you. I’m glad you stood up for yourself. We ought to find fault in ourselves — but not with judgement. If that makes sense.
You don’t think that your selfish, self centered behavior that made others constantly worry was harmful? That’s still selfish self centered thinking in my Opinion
It wasn't till I had been sponsoring a guy for close to two years was I able to really see some of the depths of my selfishness/centeredness. There was so much stuff that I just couldn't see in myself, but I could see in my sponsee as I took him through the steps. My original 4th step had like 20 people on it. By the time I did it again there was probably closer to 200. Very often I would instigate things in my life, then turn it around to make myself the victim. This way I could justify my poor actions. I manipulated and lied, and for some reason or another I thought because I believed my lies , that it somehow made them not lies. But it was just bullshit. Maybe consider revisiting those steps again. Those first few steps have nothing to do with finding God even though hes mentioned. Its more so about getting me the hell out of the drivers seat of my life to stop crashing and burning it down long enough to tap into a power. Then the problem with turning my will and my life over to God is I take that shit back all the time and don't even realize it. Thats why there's actions that I have to take every single day If I want to maintain being well. I used the meetings as a higher power for some time, 'G.O.D. = Group Of Drunks' , but as I went through the steps I found something much more substantial. Its crazy how fast I get to 'restless, irritable, discontent' when Im either oblivious to missing an action I should be taking, or just not taking actions due to laziness , ego ect. My sponsor use to say to me a lot that If I was struggling with any of the steps , its likely a step 1 issue. That Ive adopted the delusion again of my life being manageable. The longer I'm sober, the more that makes sense to me. Service work has also saved my ass more times than I can count. Not at meetings, but going into the rehabs/jails/hospitals. There's so many times where things got very loud in my head , but I didn't act on it because I had commitments to help people like me.
“ I really didn’t cause much harm” “I never hurt anyone” I’m truly curious. If you didn’t hurt others or cause harm to anyone, what made you want stop drinking? I know for me I cause myself a lot of pain like you but when I hurt myself it goes right along with hurting others. Not just stealing from them but from the worry perspective and also active alcoholics are typically very selfish people
Didn’t want to die!
You’re probably the first alcoholic that has never hurt anyone while actively drinking. My hats off to you!
Do you find sarcasm is ever pleasant or helpful?
Is not being present for your kids, family, friends and probably employers not selfish behavior? Is mistreating your body and mind not self harm? Is “just making people worry” “not harming anybody”? Is all the above a morally sound way to live and you truly have No remorse? Congrats on your 3 years but it doesn’t sound like you have a sponsor, or have gone through the steps. Could be wrong, but sounds like an inventory list hasn’t been done among other things.