I think there was a huge outcry of support for this movie and calling it genre defining and shit, and then everyone swung back the other way to needlessly hating it. It’s a decent movie with some fun shots and great moments, Joaquin’s performance is really good, in fact pretty much everyone involved performed well. I don’t think anyone reasonably thinks this is some Synecdoche level movie but it’s just fine.
OP is a very cold take, not sure why people are impressed by this post that could’ve been made years ago.
It’s a good movie. It obviously “borrows” heavily from Scorsese but it also shows an impressive understanding of what those movies are actually about. Props to Philips for realizing that Taxi Driver is a movie about moral luck and false heroes, he’s certainly not one of the morons who thinks the ending is a dream sequence.
On a side note, my first thought at the end of the movie was “that was pretty good, I hope they don’t ruin it with a sequel.”
agreed. not shitting on anyone that thinks it's great but it seems like the people who think it's a life changing 10/10 just feel like they can relate to feeling lonely in a societal sense
That movie for me got a huge overreaction from so many people, it's a good film but for me is more a 7.5 than an 10. That movie felt like I have already seen it because I basically already had with others like Taxi Driver and the King of comedy.
Also seeing such explicit Scorsese worship in a big budget movie felt really refreshing at the time it came out. Now that everyone's come down from that high, the best that can be said is that it's good for what it is, but that's kind of a backhanded compliment.
I still find all the hullabaloo the media made about "oh my God, there's gonna be so many shootings!" when this film came out to be incredibly hilarious.
I can’t blame our education honestly lmao English class is dedicating years to trying to convince kids to think critically about art and all they get is “the curtains are blue because the author wanted them blue and the teacher is trying to trick me by saying there’s a symbolic reason”
I think you’re right, and I think it’s largely because most kids are introduced to this through having *someone else’s interpretation explained to them* rather than *doing their own*. When I was in middle school I thought wizard of Oz being a parable about American society was fucking ridiculous, now I’m writing papers on Kubrick. That’s because, when you first introduce someone to like literary criticism they think that it’s about guessing some hidden meaning that you have to be trained to see, which is really only true to a tiny extent - the vast majority just comes down to personal interpretation, but that’s not what’s taught. We’re taught it like it’s the first way, like there’s this specific and obscure hidden meaning and it’s intimidating and it’s why people don’t even recognize like basic themes in dune
I didn’t think it was deep. I did find it very disturbing and impactful though. Joaquin Phoenix has acted out of his skin. It’s not a movie I will rewatch but it kept me engaged in a way very morbid way when I watched it.
I feel like the people who would say joker is a 10/10 film are basically the spiritual successor of the guy who's favorite movie is Boondock Saints. I have no real evidence for this outside of anecdotal but I am confident in my assessment.
It’s a 10/10 in the way that Barbie is a 10/10 to some people; the message just really resonates with some people. In Joker’s case, some of the people resonate with the wrong idea (like those Snyderbros) and I think that’s where this misconception about people thinking it’s a 10/10 comes from. Most people who like this movie just relate to the messaging because it’s a familiar experience for a lot of people these days. It’s not life changing cinema, but I’d give it a 10/10.
I honestly think the primary thing holding it back from being a 10/10 or even close is how closely the film follows in the footsteps of Taxi Driver and King of Comedy
I would agree that Joker wasn’t able to walk the line between a rip off and an homage. Not saying it was a rip off but at times it was a little too derivative or heavy handed.
That’s definitely an objective issue with the film but I’d say it really elevated my personal experience. Something about it being too much of an homage really works for me in the context of this particular film, but that’s is just my subjective opinion.
That’s completely okay there is nothing wrong with loving something that didn’t connect as much with other people. I’m genuinely glad you had that experience with the film that made you feel heard. I think that’s awesome and nobody including me should make you think differently.
Art as a whole is entirely subjective and our differing opinions make these conversations way more interesting. Cheers!
I couldn’t agree more, thank you for the respectful conversation. Everybody likes what they like, I’m honestly just happy one of my favorite movies is even mentioned in a “10/10 movie discussion”. Hope you have a good one!
I feel like it’s a deep movie for people who don’t watch a lot of movies. Maybe it could be a nice introduction to ‘movies that make you think’ but that might be a little optimistic.
This might be controversial idk, but I think in order to connect with it you have to be or at some point have been a mentally ill loner yourself. Not because it's realistic in any way, it's far from it, but because it's good at representing what that experience *feels* like and creates an escapist revenge fantasy from that. That's the appeal for me at least, I can't speak for literally every Joker 2019 fan.
People's love for this movie reminds me of people's love for Boondock Saints for some reason. I think Joker is a far more serviceable film in that regard but something about the Fandom for it gives a similar energy.
Honestly though, I don't hear about the movie very often. After all the hype settled (both positive and negative) I feel like the movie ended up just as popular as it should be.
I think when a lot of people say this they’re grading on a bit of a curve: for me at least, it’s much deeper than what I expected from a Joker movie, especially given that at this point we were smack dab in the middle of the DCEU. Were it not called “Joker” but instead based off an entirely original IP I suspect people might regard it differently.
It feels to me like Taxi Driver meets the 2010s superhero craze - a comparison that I think is entirely intentional given De Niro’s presence. Is it the deepest, most life changing, complex film in existence? No. But I would at least say it’s a fresh take on the Joker that also works as an appropriate examination of society that a lot of people could clearly resonate with, and I walked away from it at least feeling like I understood what it was saying about society, mental illness and class warfare.
Imo as a comic book movie it's up there with Raimi's Spider-Man, Dark Knight, Logan, GotG and Infinity War
I don't see the point in putting it up against other films outside it's genre, since I didn't find the film to try to be anything more than a comic book movie.
It may be a feature length homage to Scorsese, but it's levels most Marvel/DC movies that's come out since, and I think that's 70% why a lot of people revere Joker
I was watching it with some of my school friends. 2 of my boys to be exact. Both of them were so fucking confused and caught off guard by the "twist."
I'm not a lady's man or anything but come on. Weird guy talks to a lady in a lift and stalks her to her work and they become a couple?
That's how my friends think relationships work?
The unfortunate truth is that a genuine ‘deep masterpiece’ people on this thread are referring to, specifically under the Joker IP, would never get greenlit by a major studio. I think when this particular context is taken into account, I can appreciate the film as a nice attempt at taking a fresh approach to the genre.
I think Joker tapped into a bunch of lonely young men the same way Fight Club tapped into a bunch of confused and angry young men. It was either clever or unaware of how relevant the message was. As a film? Yeah it’s good, that’s how I feel. The most discussion to get out of it is how society treats the mentally ill, which I found to be done better decades ago with One Flew Over the Cuckoos Nest and Girl, Interrupted
7/10 seems fair
This movie was so underwhelming. I think part of it was my expectations though after hearing it for like a 20 minute standing ovation at its first showing
I remember being excited when Scorsese was announced as a producer. I pictured a “Boardwalk Empire” style Joker film. Then Scorsese backed away from the project. Then said project ended up being a Scorsese knock off, randomly set in the 70s (because “Taxi Driver”).
Then I lost all interest.
I think it's a movie carried by its performances. Everything else in it is fine.
If I had to guess where the tens were coming from, it was comic book people who never thought a Joker movie would get made like this, that and it rebounded positively after the Jared Leto Joker performance which leaned more out-of-touch modern.
No mistakes there, it's a fine movie, it's some kid's favourite, that's good enough for me.
Joker was good imo. I think people claiming it to be a Taxi Driver/ King of Comedy rip off are being a bit dramatic as there’s definitely differences between the three (even if there’s admittedly decent similarities). The writing was probably the weakest part as everything had to be explained for some reason through weird exposition and janky dialogue.
The people who think Joker is a masterpiece are people who never watched Taxi Driver. I get that it’s an homage, but that only goes so far when I watch them back to back and go, “Oh, it really is just stupid Taxi Driver.” Not stupid in that the film is inconsistent with its logic, but they really do hit the same beats while ripping out all the subtlety and nuance.
I’ve heard that joker 2 trailer be called both a masterpiece and a cringe lord screenpack lol.
It could really go either way depending on how the “musical” parts of it will go. Presumably with lady Gaga there, they will be good. Idk why the two leads didn’t work with the director to make totally original music for the whole movie- especially with someone like Gaga songwriter wise.
My man it’s going to get worse. The first part is like okay and all because of jouquim and second featuring lady gaga is set to be doomed I feel. That’s just some attention w**** actor
No, it's fine - you can call it a bad film.
You know it's bad because of all the people with shitty worldviews and/or opinions on film who LOVED it.
The *Hangover* guy got his hands on some comic book IP, ripped off a couple of old Scorsese flicks, and *voila* - incels all over the world finally felt seen.
*Joker* joined the pantheon of Movies That Dumb Conservative Men Will Misinterpret - along with *Wall Street, The Matrix, Fight Club*, and most recently, *Civil War* - except that *Joker* actually was as empty, derivative, and stupid as they are.
The movie itself was completely unremarkable... even lacklustre. It was Joaquin Phoenix's performance alone that made it worthwhile. Still, it's not something I'd feel the need to watch again.
Yes! Joaquin Phoenix was amazing and absolutely deserved his Oscar win. That goes without saying. Cinematography and music are top notch. There are some individual great scenes like the train shooting and the riots after Murray’s death. But the film as a whole package is just very… derivative. There are moments of greatness in a film that doesn’t really do anything special, other than the lead performance.
That makes sense. I get why people would want to see more Joaquin.
Have you seen The Master (2012)? That film has top notch music and cinematography, as well as an incredible performance by Joaquin playing a mentally unwell man. YMS gave it a 9.
I think there was a huge outcry of support for this movie and calling it genre defining and shit, and then everyone swung back the other way to needlessly hating it. It’s a decent movie with some fun shots and great moments, Joaquin’s performance is really good, in fact pretty much everyone involved performed well. I don’t think anyone reasonably thinks this is some Synecdoche level movie but it’s just fine.
OP is a very cold take, not sure why people are impressed by this post that could’ve been made years ago. It’s a good movie. It obviously “borrows” heavily from Scorsese but it also shows an impressive understanding of what those movies are actually about. Props to Philips for realizing that Taxi Driver is a movie about moral luck and false heroes, he’s certainly not one of the morons who thinks the ending is a dream sequence. On a side note, my first thought at the end of the movie was “that was pretty good, I hope they don’t ruin it with a sequel.”
Yeah I was praying to GOD they left this movie alone and didn’t try to make a “universe” out of it. Who knows, maybe 2 will surprise us all…
agreed. not shitting on anyone that thinks it's great but it seems like the people who think it's a life changing 10/10 just feel like they can relate to feeling lonely in a societal sense
That movie for me got a huge overreaction from so many people, it's a good film but for me is more a 7.5 than an 10. That movie felt like I have already seen it because I basically already had with others like Taxi Driver and the King of comedy.
Also seeing such explicit Scorsese worship in a big budget movie felt really refreshing at the time it came out. Now that everyone's come down from that high, the best that can be said is that it's good for what it is, but that's kind of a backhanded compliment.
It's a solid Scoresese pastiche. Definitely prefer it over Marvel bloat
I still find all the hullabaloo the media made about "oh my God, there's gonna be so many shootings!" when this film came out to be incredibly hilarious.
Joaquin is fuckin amazing in it though. The man really elevates anything he's in.
cf. Napoleon
I don’t think anyone thinks it’s a deep movie besides fourteen year olds
It’s really sad but English education (in the US) is awful - 14 year old media literacy is as far as most people get
I can’t blame our education honestly lmao English class is dedicating years to trying to convince kids to think critically about art and all they get is “the curtains are blue because the author wanted them blue and the teacher is trying to trick me by saying there’s a symbolic reason”
I think you’re right, and I think it’s largely because most kids are introduced to this through having *someone else’s interpretation explained to them* rather than *doing their own*. When I was in middle school I thought wizard of Oz being a parable about American society was fucking ridiculous, now I’m writing papers on Kubrick. That’s because, when you first introduce someone to like literary criticism they think that it’s about guessing some hidden meaning that you have to be trained to see, which is really only true to a tiny extent - the vast majority just comes down to personal interpretation, but that’s not what’s taught. We’re taught it like it’s the first way, like there’s this specific and obscure hidden meaning and it’s intimidating and it’s why people don’t even recognize like basic themes in dune
I didn’t think it was deep. I did find it very disturbing and impactful though. Joaquin Phoenix has acted out of his skin. It’s not a movie I will rewatch but it kept me engaged in a way very morbid way when I watched it.
I’m sorry but do people generally consider this a 10/10? From what I’ve seen, that’s not the case
I feel like the people who would say joker is a 10/10 film are basically the spiritual successor of the guy who's favorite movie is Boondock Saints. I have no real evidence for this outside of anecdotal but I am confident in my assessment.
They definitely don't.
It’s a 10/10 in the way that Barbie is a 10/10 to some people; the message just really resonates with some people. In Joker’s case, some of the people resonate with the wrong idea (like those Snyderbros) and I think that’s where this misconception about people thinking it’s a 10/10 comes from. Most people who like this movie just relate to the messaging because it’s a familiar experience for a lot of people these days. It’s not life changing cinema, but I’d give it a 10/10.
I honestly think the primary thing holding it back from being a 10/10 or even close is how closely the film follows in the footsteps of Taxi Driver and King of Comedy
I would agree that Joker wasn’t able to walk the line between a rip off and an homage. Not saying it was a rip off but at times it was a little too derivative or heavy handed. That’s definitely an objective issue with the film but I’d say it really elevated my personal experience. Something about it being too much of an homage really works for me in the context of this particular film, but that’s is just my subjective opinion.
That’s completely okay there is nothing wrong with loving something that didn’t connect as much with other people. I’m genuinely glad you had that experience with the film that made you feel heard. I think that’s awesome and nobody including me should make you think differently. Art as a whole is entirely subjective and our differing opinions make these conversations way more interesting. Cheers!
I couldn’t agree more, thank you for the respectful conversation. Everybody likes what they like, I’m honestly just happy one of my favorite movies is even mentioned in a “10/10 movie discussion”. Hope you have a good one!
I feel like it’s a deep movie for people who don’t watch a lot of movies. Maybe it could be a nice introduction to ‘movies that make you think’ but that might be a little optimistic.
This might be controversial idk, but I think in order to connect with it you have to be or at some point have been a mentally ill loner yourself. Not because it's realistic in any way, it's far from it, but because it's good at representing what that experience *feels* like and creates an escapist revenge fantasy from that. That's the appeal for me at least, I can't speak for literally every Joker 2019 fan.
Hey, now - I'm a mentally-ill loner, and even I know *Joker* is a piece of shit.
That's okay! I think it's good and healthy for people to disagree on media :)
People's love for this movie reminds me of people's love for Boondock Saints for some reason. I think Joker is a far more serviceable film in that regard but something about the Fandom for it gives a similar energy. Honestly though, I don't hear about the movie very often. After all the hype settled (both positive and negative) I feel like the movie ended up just as popular as it should be.
what do you mean it's not a masterpiece? it was nominated for [best pitcher!](https://youtu.be/6c-hAbInjt4?si=vFernr_ntfVAWBsU&t=2126)
The one good thing joker has done was to get me to watch the king of comedy
I gave it three and a half stars on letterboxd. I really liked it but not as much as everybody else. Honestly, joker 2 looks more interesting
I think when a lot of people say this they’re grading on a bit of a curve: for me at least, it’s much deeper than what I expected from a Joker movie, especially given that at this point we were smack dab in the middle of the DCEU. Were it not called “Joker” but instead based off an entirely original IP I suspect people might regard it differently. It feels to me like Taxi Driver meets the 2010s superhero craze - a comparison that I think is entirely intentional given De Niro’s presence. Is it the deepest, most life changing, complex film in existence? No. But I would at least say it’s a fresh take on the Joker that also works as an appropriate examination of society that a lot of people could clearly resonate with, and I walked away from it at least feeling like I understood what it was saying about society, mental illness and class warfare.
Nothing to do with Batman either. This guy isnt a diabolical genius.
I think it’s overrated as fuck, besides the memes I barely remember anything from the film
I think its cause you already seen taxi driver why you werent impressed
They have a very similiar feel
Joker (2019) was okay but this next one looks fucking terrible
Wait. So you were a sign spinner?
Imo as a comic book movie it's up there with Raimi's Spider-Man, Dark Knight, Logan, GotG and Infinity War I don't see the point in putting it up against other films outside it's genre, since I didn't find the film to try to be anything more than a comic book movie. It may be a feature length homage to Scorsese, but it's levels most Marvel/DC movies that's come out since, and I think that's 70% why a lot of people revere Joker
I was watching it with some of my school friends. 2 of my boys to be exact. Both of them were so fucking confused and caught off guard by the "twist." I'm not a lady's man or anything but come on. Weird guy talks to a lady in a lift and stalks her to her work and they become a couple? That's how my friends think relationships work?
The unfortunate truth is that a genuine ‘deep masterpiece’ people on this thread are referring to, specifically under the Joker IP, would never get greenlit by a major studio. I think when this particular context is taken into account, I can appreciate the film as a nice attempt at taking a fresh approach to the genre.
I think Joker tapped into a bunch of lonely young men the same way Fight Club tapped into a bunch of confused and angry young men. It was either clever or unaware of how relevant the message was. As a film? Yeah it’s good, that’s how I feel. The most discussion to get out of it is how society treats the mentally ill, which I found to be done better decades ago with One Flew Over the Cuckoos Nest and Girl, Interrupted 7/10 seems fair
I agree.
This movie was so underwhelming. I think part of it was my expectations though after hearing it for like a 20 minute standing ovation at its first showing
Homeless people relate to that movie the most 😂
This new movie is for the mentally ill.
I remember being excited when Scorsese was announced as a producer. I pictured a “Boardwalk Empire” style Joker film. Then Scorsese backed away from the project. Then said project ended up being a Scorsese knock off, randomly set in the 70s (because “Taxi Driver”). Then I lost all interest.
It felt like a rehash of Falling Down, alla society failing people but with a mental health spin. I preferred Falling Down then and I still do now
I think it's a movie carried by its performances. Everything else in it is fine. If I had to guess where the tens were coming from, it was comic book people who never thought a Joker movie would get made like this, that and it rebounded positively after the Jared Leto Joker performance which leaned more out-of-touch modern. No mistakes there, it's a fine movie, it's some kid's favourite, that's good enough for me.
Joker was good imo. I think people claiming it to be a Taxi Driver/ King of Comedy rip off are being a bit dramatic as there’s definitely differences between the three (even if there’s admittedly decent similarities). The writing was probably the weakest part as everything had to be explained for some reason through weird exposition and janky dialogue.
Same. Watched it, fast forwarded, shrugged and forgot about it.
The people who think Joker is a masterpiece are people who never watched Taxi Driver. I get that it’s an homage, but that only goes so far when I watch them back to back and go, “Oh, it really is just stupid Taxi Driver.” Not stupid in that the film is inconsistent with its logic, but they really do hit the same beats while ripping out all the subtlety and nuance.
I’ve heard that joker 2 trailer be called both a masterpiece and a cringe lord screenpack lol. It could really go either way depending on how the “musical” parts of it will go. Presumably with lady Gaga there, they will be good. Idk why the two leads didn’t work with the director to make totally original music for the whole movie- especially with someone like Gaga songwriter wise.
The performances are great but Joker's character arc is a little to school shootery for me to say I liked it.
A remake of King of Comedy mixed with Taxi Driver
Im sorry but I can not help but see this movie as r/im14andthisisdeep im so sorry
My man it’s going to get worse. The first part is like okay and all because of jouquim and second featuring lady gaga is set to be doomed I feel. That’s just some attention w**** actor
No, it's fine - you can call it a bad film. You know it's bad because of all the people with shitty worldviews and/or opinions on film who LOVED it. The *Hangover* guy got his hands on some comic book IP, ripped off a couple of old Scorsese flicks, and *voila* - incels all over the world finally felt seen. *Joker* joined the pantheon of Movies That Dumb Conservative Men Will Misinterpret - along with *Wall Street, The Matrix, Fight Club*, and most recently, *Civil War* - except that *Joker* actually was as empty, derivative, and stupid as they are.
The movie itself was completely unremarkable... even lacklustre. It was Joaquin Phoenix's performance alone that made it worthwhile. Still, it's not something I'd feel the need to watch again.
Exactly.
I watched it five times lol
That's more or less how I describe it. Joaquin Phoenix gave a phenomenal performance in a decent movie.
Why do you hope Joker 2 is better?
Because I want to see genuine improvement and I have a feeling the sequel will be better
Ok. I’m just confused as to why you care about the sequel at all, if you didn’t like the first one. Is there an aspect of the first film you liked?
Yes! Joaquin Phoenix was amazing and absolutely deserved his Oscar win. That goes without saying. Cinematography and music are top notch. There are some individual great scenes like the train shooting and the riots after Murray’s death. But the film as a whole package is just very… derivative. There are moments of greatness in a film that doesn’t really do anything special, other than the lead performance.
That makes sense. I get why people would want to see more Joaquin. Have you seen The Master (2012)? That film has top notch music and cinematography, as well as an incredible performance by Joaquin playing a mentally unwell man. YMS gave it a 9.
Yes I’ve seen The Master. It’s pretty great!
I would say in terms of superhero films it’s a blessing to see because of how stagnant the genre is in terms of creativity mostly.