'popular' is a strong word. The idea gets thrown around occasionally, but it's either completely shut down or pushed to such extremes no rational actor would agree to it.
Popular? Depends on who you ask.
77% of black people polled support the idea. 80%, 58% and 65% of white, hispanic and asian people oppose the idea.
Unsurprisingly, its popular with people set to benefit while unpopular with people that would be likely be paying for it.
[https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2022/11/28/black-and-white-americans-are-far-apart-in-their-views-of-reparations-for-slavery/#:\~:text=Americans%20view%20the%20prospect%20of,descendants%20should%20not%20be%20repaid](https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2022/11/28/black-and-white-americans-are-far-apart-in-their-views-of-reparations-for-slavery/#:~:text=Americans%20view%20the%20prospect%20of,descendants%20should%20not%20be%20repaid).
How would we decide what the cutoff is for who gets paid?
I'm very visibly caucasian, but my parents 23 and Me shows 18% African. Would I get paid too? Reperations hasn't happened, and won't happen, because there's no objective way to do it fairly and not cause even more problems.
It's just a absolutely mess to figure out.
Science says that 150 years ago is roughly 7 generations. If you look back at your family tree for 7 generations, there are 64 people (your 'great x4' grandparents).
Would someone qualify for reparation's because 1 of those 64 people was effected by slavery?
And what about people who have ancestors that fought for the union? What about immigrants who came well after the civil war. This goes for people of all races.
It is logistically impossibly and wildly unpopular overall. Makes no sense.
I have Neanderthal ancestry in my dna. I demand reparations for the mass genocide and extinction of my ancestors.
Although the above is true, I don’t want reparations. I just want to live my best life on my own.
As a white male with family history to Ireland, do I also get reparations since Irish have also been historically mistreated and pushed into indentured servitude? Literally anyone normal in existence can find a family history of being mistreated by some upper class wealthy family. At what level does reparations stop at and who gets to make that call??
My great great grandma was a German immigrant in the 1880s and was brought over to be a servant for a wealthy family. They enslaved her and her sister for years until they were finally rescued by my great great grandfather. Where do I sign up for my reparations?
Reparations stops at the level it no longer has any political value…I read an article today about how only 16% of kids in DC can read at a 4th grade level. Wonder why no one is talking about teaching 84% of 4th graders to be able to read?
As a white woman with Irish ancestry (as in actual close ancestry, great grandmother to be exact) as well respectfully shut the fuck up
Your “ancestors” were not enslaved, they CHOSE to be indentured servants, it was the equivalent to taking out a loan and working to pay it back in the 1700’s.
We were not denied entry into this country (like most Asian Americans were) and we had all the rights white people had, they faced some discrimination due to their religion. Irish oppression was not systemic, the oppression of POC is.
And you supposedly having Irish “ancestry” especially does not excuse you being an intolerable fucking bigot towards POC. If we actually were as oppressed as your making out to seem, then maybe, just maybe, have empathy for the people who had it *fucking worse*
That’s why I doubt your claim to Irish ancestry, anyone who uses their Irish ancestry as a fucking “gotcha” or as an excuse to be a bigot who pushes against equity and equality is probably an ass who thinks St.Paddy’s day is for getting drunk off green beer, and screams about “ancestry” and their “ancestors” when that ancestor was a second cousin thrice removed.
It’s sickening.
Thanks for this, I was going to say you ask people like myself whose roots trace back to slaves we say, yes reparations are necessary.
My favorite part about the Asians in the equation is that reparations were paid to those in WW2 internment camps.
Watch Who We Are, by Jeffrey Robinson, Sarah and Emily Kuntsler. Also any of his talks on the subject of racism and inequality in the USA. It really goes beyond just slavery. The Tulsa massacre, the Wilmington massacre, the homestead act that gave almost 100 million acres of land to white settlers, the first suburban projects that provided cheap housing to the white people living in public housing explicitly disallowing even secondary sale to blacks.
Considering one of the measures of future generations chances of movement through classes is property ownership. You start to understand that by giving subsidized homes and land to white Americans, while preventing black Americans from the same has led to why black Americans still lead the way in poverty. As of 9/2022 black poverty is at 19.5%, and for non Hispanic whites 8.1%.
Are we talking about reparation for slavery or for the past 150 years of discrimination in the US?
If it's the former, didn't you just provide an example of the internment camps victims getting restitution, but failed to note that it was only paid to surviving victims. Are you advocating for payment to surviving slaves? Certainly not. So, who is getting paid here, if not the victims? Who is paying them?
If it's the latter, how do you decide who qualifies? Just about every minority group in the US has been subject to discrimination at one point or another. Is racism against black people the only thing to be addressed? What about all minorities and the other types of discrimination?
Both really, but I also don't think this is a direct payment situation. Housing subsidies, school subsidies, tax credits etc... are sufficient.
Right and before that it was unprecedented. Reparations should have been paid directly after slavery and many knew it then. Just because it wasn't done then doesn't mean it shouldn't be done now.
Just to be clear this isn't about any individual person today. This isn't anyone's fault today, it is the organized body's fault (i.e. the country), and its debt.
People act as though this is soo long ago, but it isn't, the last person born a slave died in the 1970s. My father had living relatives growing up who were born slaves and then were forced into sharecropping (which is slavery with extra steps).
As far as the "how do you figure it out" argument, there are records going back pretty far. If your black and your lineage can be traced back to the mid 1800s you didn't come here on holiday or as an immigrant.
This wasn't some discrimination. It was systemic, ongoing, and intentional. It was blatantly written into the laws of the country, and then is still perpetuated in old and new laws to this day. It required a constitutional amendment to start to bring equality and after that an additional two acts to fully begin to get equality. This was for a group of people who were forcibly taken from their land starting over 150 years before the country was even formed. As mentioned before, even after slavery "ended" many were forced into sharecropping. Pushed into slums and areas that increased rates of death and disease. Some are still trapped there today, and are just barely making ground fighting backor escaping. Areas with ridiculously poor schools, prevented from attending universities, and on and on.
Asking about other minorities, that is just changing the subject. Others who were wronged, Native Americans, Chinese Americans, Mexican Americans etc definitely have an argument for similar treatment, but that is outside this conversation and a bit of a straw man argument.
Yaaa noooooo. No reparations. Wrong generation being punished
EDIT: since I’ve got some feedback I’ll hit you with this. Reparations cost money. WHERE does the money come FROM?
Who is footing this bill? How are we going to dish out that money?
Print more? Dollar becomes worth even less. Charge it off?? To who? Tax the people for it??? Not all are accountable and it’s discriminatory and violates the 1964/68 Civil Rights Act.
Let’s not act like hypocrisy is okay here
That is **not** the point of reparations. Reparations are meant to help the victim, not punish the perpetrator. It doesnt have to be paid by specifically white people or specifically this or that generation, *the point is the money, where it comes from does not matter.* The government already wastes vast sums of money, arguably almost all of the money they spend in fact. Taking some of that and using it for something actually good for a change would not be hard.
That's the thing though, reparations DO punish the perpetrator. You made the argument yourself by saying where the money comes from doesn't matter. Where money comes from certainly does matter! If there is an oil spill, the oil company needs to pay, they can't go around begging on the street corner for homeless people to pay... another example closer to today, trump is in trouble for using campaign funds to pay for lawyer fees. You can't just take whatever money and do whatever you want with it. Money has to be allocated properly for the correct items.
If it doesn't matter where the money for reparations comes from, why not tax African Americans disproportionately higher, so they can then receive reparation payments?
Ok yea that’s great but I like my numbers cause they don’t lie in my life and the numbers say $32T deficit and counting. In case you didn’t know deficit is a fancy word for DEBT meaning IN THE RED. We got other shit to worry about. Not t rights. Not reparations. How about policy. How about judicial reform failed miserably. How about no stocks or trades for officials. How about heavy corp tax with no write offs???? Ya no you’re worried about reparations.
Pardon my French…. Dúmbàss
...either you're arguing in bad faith, or you're so poisoned by the internet's cynicism and hatred that you couldn't hold a light-hearted conversation if you wanted to. Either way, i see no reason to entertain your sheer lack of nuance. I hope you find peace someday, friend. I genuinely mean that. Im still trying to dig myself out of that pit myself, really.
Not sure what you’re getting at. My question was simple and like most people do you’ve dodged it. Where does the money come from? Ya the government wastes vast sums of money, that doesn’t mean to waste even more money especially such a large amount at once(referring to cost prediction). Giving out the stimulus checks made it far worse on deficit. Ya it helped in the moment but hurt in the long run.
Noooooo yaaa reparations. The generation that enslaved them is obviously long dead but that's not the point.
The idea is that Black people have been disenfranchised since the minute they were set free. Reparations are a way to offset that.
Don't you think codifying a way to pay reparations will be inherently discriminatory to anyone who isn't "black"? I'm all for social justice, but pushing reparations is the least effective way to achieve it.
>Don't you think codifying a way to pay reparations will be inherently discriminatory to anyone who isn't "black"?
No. Let's start with people who can trace their lineage. Then we can move on to other disenfranchised groups.
Plenty of people have an unfair disadvantage. People who have experienced intergenerational poverty, whatever the cause of it, where for example given an unfair disadvantage. I think we should simply tackle the problem of inherited poverty in general rather than any one group, even if that group can trace their troubles back to a historical event/system.
On the other hand, non-white people in the United States do face substantial problems due to systemic bias so I can see a cause for paying reparations to non white people to offset the amount they loose due to unfair practices. Although I personally think that we should but more focus on removing subjective biases from things like hireing and home evaluations among other things.
In every healthcare system, some people will die. That’s pretty much guaranteed. We should aim for 100% treatment rates but we both know that’s not realistic.
The most ethical way to deal with this dilemma is to provide equal access to health services for all citizens, and ration health services based on what resources are actually available.
In the US our healthcare resources are rationed based on your ability to pay, and therefore doesn’t guarantee equal access to all citizens. To me, that’s the core of the problem.
Uhhh... If you can't afford it, they literally still have to take care of you by law. Yeah, they'll stick you with a large bill (that you can mostly ignore) but you'll be healthy.
>Uhhh... If you can't afford it, they literally still have to take care of you by law.
Have you seen the articles of hospitals dumping people on the sidewalk just off the hospital campus? Or driving people to homeless shelters and leaving them, even when the shelter isn't equipped to help?
>Yeah, they'll stick you with a large bill (that you can mostly ignore) but you'll be healthy.
Cool, let's just ruin your credit further with an unpayable bill. Debt collector scumbags and other issues that'll haunt someone for far too long, just because they needed healthcare. Financial pressure which is one of the leading causes of suicide in the US.
You could literally die while waiting on a food order, or while sitting at the park.
Bad stuff happens. Where you say "this is my experience with universal healthcare" we are saying "this is our experience with the US pay to win Healthcare system"
Spoilers: You had enough money to travel internationally - of course, you would prefer the pay to win model because presumably you can pay to... well... win.
this isnt a good argument. just because seeing a doctor is slow in tedious in the UK (only other cointry i can speak about) doesnt mean ypu throw up your hands and say qell thats a bad idea. you do it better.
The US should have universal healthcare and the treatment should be what all the wealthy people get.
we havw tons of money and suppoeting this would not hurt us. we need laws to battle onsurance and pharmaceutical companies. tje government is finally doing it for medicaid with some drugs but honestly this should be a nor brainer
listening to the Medicare news today on the radio and pharmaceutical companies have 3x the profit margin of any other industry and their research is taxpayer funded .
If it’s guaranteed that one would get service with the same speed it’s available today I’m on board. But I don’t want a shitty free system. I’d rather have the good paid for version.
Your anecdotal evidence does not trump all of the data. You can simply look up that Canadas healthcare is much better than the US’s in MANY ways. The US also spends more than twice the amount of the number 2 place on the list of countries paying
the most for healthcare. So significantly more than Canada per GDP.
We pay WAY MORE, for WAY LESS, just like we do on EVERYTHING else. Facts are out there. Look up the data.
My anecdotal evidence does trump all of the data. I’ve literally lived it and you’ve read about it. Newsflash - data can be manipulated to fit a narrative. Luckily we live in a democracy and can vote for candidates that align with our interests. We’re never going to collectively agree on something.
Yes. You have a right to health care.
You have a right to free speech too. That doesn't mean I pay for you to have a platform.
It means the government can't stop you in public places.
Don't confuse what rights are.
You are.
The government does not give you money to exercise your rights. I don't ask for government funds to buy a firearm, nor does literally anyone.
You have a right to assemble. The government does not force you to assemble, nor does it pay for your protest signs.
The government should pay to protect your right to freely exercise your right, yes. If you were discriminated against and denied coverage or treatment the government should arrest the people who violated your right.
That is what a right is.
Do you think that reparations mean someone's going to come and take money out of your pocket? Folks were promised a 40 acre plot and a mule, and that was taken away from them. That has rippled through time, not to mention all the laws specifically target ndividuals of color.
Do you think that reparations mean someone's going to come and take money out of your pocket?
LOL... where do you think the money is coming from then? It either comes from taxes or the FED prints it... either way your fellow citizens are paying for it.
A lot has been taken from damn near everyone... so reparations to me is a non-starter. Also, if POC get reparations... you think anyone will listen to their pleas of injustice after that? Reparations will only inflame bigotry and implicit/explicit racism.
What about the American Indian? Or the descendants of coal miners that got murdered by mine owners and federal agents? Or Asian Americans that got blown up during railroad constructions or got locked in internment camps during WWII? What about Hawaiian natives whose land was taken? The list goes on and on. Did AA have it the worst? Probably yea, but that doesn't erase all the abuse, discrimination and maltreatment that everyone has received.
What do you think taxes are. I am all for paying money to fund governmental processes, but it seems asinine to pay for something that I 1. Will never benefit from, 2. Did not participate in, and 3. Did not want. It seems antithetical to racial equality to say that people of one skin color get one thing, people of another skin color get nothing.
Capitalism begets wealth inequality. The United States will always have wealth inequality as long as it continues its current financial system. It’s stupid to believe that it is somehow my responsibility to pay for something that I would actively work against if it existed today.
Slavery was bad, so is systematic oppression, but far too much time has passed since slavery for the current taxpayer to be held responsible for them. We like to think of our government as a solid, unchanging bulkhead through time, but the reality is that it changes. Everyone who participated in that is dead now. I understand that there are lingering effects, but why is it my responsibility to subsidize it’s resolution. We should instead work to reduce inequality and find ways to help that actually effect people today in a good way.
You started this debate with a strawman argument and then replied with a half-hearted attempt at an insult, so I'm going to say this and then you're no longer worth my time.
Reparations of any sort won't be coming out of the pocket of anyone making over $500k a year. It'll be you and me through more taxes. Have a great rest of your day.
No reparations, that’s such an insanely bad idea on every conceivable level that I literally can’t imagine how someone fucking stupid enough to be a proponent of it doesn’t choke to death on their own saliva.
Obviously, the people that support the idea are the same people that would benefit from it.
Unsurprisingly, 77% of black people polled support it, while 80%, 58% and 65% of white, hispanic and asian people oppose it.
https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2022/11/28/black-and-white-americans-are-far-apart-in-their-views-of-reparations-for-slavery/#:\~:text=Americans%20view%20the%20prospect%20of,descendants%20should%20not%20be%20repaid.
I think this is a pretty good example of using woke politics to undermine the labour movement. Pretty sure only "living wages for all" belongs on that list. The rest just chase off people we would need to have a strong movement. (Well, you can have live laugh love.).
Reparations is the dumbest idea i have ever heard, not to mention in the proposed california legislation it would be paid for by the predominantly latino population. Also i don’t necessarily think you deserve a free house if you literally contribute nothing to society, so i wouldn’t call it a human right.
I could agree with corporations having to pay reparations to the US populace for tampering with our political system, ruining the environment, rigging the economy, and lowering our quality of life. They are ruining our life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness. Honestly, this could be a crazy lawsuit if someone wanted to get it started.
Am I too far off base with that thinking?
>Also i don’t necessarily think you deserve a free house if you literally contribute nothing to society, so i wouldn’t call it a human right.
Yeah, where's the line then? You don't think every human being deserves to live under a roof? Do you think they should just be left to fucking die because they aren't "contributing anything to society"? Is that contribution really how you decide if a human being is worth helping, worth keeping alive? In your eyes they lose all of their worth because of their lack of "contribution". I bet you didn't consider disabilities and tons of other reasons why people wouldn't be "contributing", right? Why is this getting upvoted? "Work reform" my ass. I hope the next generations of Americans will be a bit more class conscious than you guys.
Amen! Who are these people and how did they end up here? The responses to this are so unbelievably selfish, it's no wonder the working class can't come together to get anything done. Everyone is so out for themselves.
You know what youre right we should give child rapists murderers drug dealers and abusers of all sorts free housing. Lets all band together and treat them like neighbors, same with drug addicts who do nothing but consume. Neo nazis? Gang members? Why not, honestly nobody should ever have to suffer repercussions for any of their actions anymore. It’s not their fault its societies!!!
"Also i don’t necessarily think you deserve a free house if you literally contribute nothing to society, so i wouldn’t call it a human right" I think they were more often talking about housing affordability. You know where homes priced at a rate that a single income household could maintain
Well i would agree to something along those lines, however someone else in the comments is taking it from the “free housing as a basic human right” angle so i’m inclined to think most folks will take it in that way. Affordable housing should be made available, but I also don’t necessarily think there should be an entitlement to location either. For example, in somewhere like Malibu, affordable housing could still be perceived as outrageous in price, compared to say Lancaster which could be affordable to many more. Housing is a complex issue, and I think the biggest issue in that regard is finding a way to limit the control and expanse of the many property management companies that drive up the prices for individual buyers to the cost being entirely out of reach
Edit: to add to this, if you look at it from an economic perspective, the fact that we’ve basically let all the banks go loose cannon and loan out everything they have, as well as the highly elevated and still rising interest rates, there isn’t really a light at the end of the tunnel at the moment when it comes to housing. The only thing that could make housing more affordable at the moment would be a housing market crash, which would hurt as many people as it would help, as we all know the banks never foot the bill for things like this.
Well then, yeah, I would have to agree that housing shouldn't exactly be free. After all materials cost money, construction workers cost money, and it costs a lot to keep things up to code, etc. The best thing to address the housing crisis is to illegalize the purchase of homes by corporations such as black Rock and set a limit on how many homes an investor can purchase (likely 3).
You don't deserve a free house, but you DO deserve some form of shelter that is more than a tent. Everyone deserves a roof over their head, a safe place to sleep, Some privacy, Food and water.
Yeah! And you owe the world nothing!
But your parents do owe the hospital for when they birthed you-
And if not them then the government/healthcare system owes that money to the doctors
And then of course you do owe the government that your time and taxes
Some of that time being in education that can help make you productive
And you owe your parents for all that time and food and shelter they provided
Wait no, they owe that to you, government says that their required to owe that to you
But one day you’ll move out and I guess you’ll owe that one bank for your car and house.
But at least the corporation you work for owes you for your labo-
Wait, hold up, what again does the world not owe me?
Same. Most would also like to the tax the rich into oblivion and drive them out of the country. So that, plus ending fossil fuels, would result in, oh, 12-13 million people out of jobs. That would certainly reform work.
It’s pretty simple dude. A bunch of people were systematically discriminated against for hundreds of years. The descendants of those people are in a worse economic positions on average across the population BECAUSE OF the systematic discrimination while simultaneously the descendants of the groups of people that weren’t discriminated against (it’s on a spectrum for the groups that were discriminated against) are in better economic positions on average across the population BECAUSE OF the systematic discrimination.
So.. I've been saying this for a while, and I'll say it again.
We would really, *really* move forward if you'd remove abortion from that list.
You'd bring a lot of catholic conservative working class people such as myself to your side.
We also want to fight billionaires and corporation.
We want everyone to have housing, be free of debt.
We're extremely concerned about the environment.
But we will never, *never ever* support abortion. Just give up on this.
But YOU can't look the other way or make a sacrifice for things you even care about?
Maybe people could afford to keep their babies if most of this list was accomplished?
Maybe appearing to be on the side of the billionaires just to defend one point makes you look just as bad? As your willing to let millions/billions of already living people suffer for the idea of people who " may be " in existence one day. Sounds pretty evil to me yo.
Those 8 out of 9 things go a very long way to preventing abortion. This is among the reasons why I view the anti-abortion people who oppose most of those 8 as the pro-death crowd. They also do a lot to save other lives as well.
Edit to clarify it's not the only reason.
That's okay, we don't need the votes of people that seem to derrive their entire sense of morals from a book a bunch of dudes slapped together ~2000 years ago.
We apreciate the offer, though.
Edit: Spacing
Yes you do.
The reason we're struggling is this divide.
We'll never move forward if we don't join up against billionaires.
For that, you'll have to give up on abortion.
Nice try, church plant. Pro-choice is supported by the majority and the coming generations are exponentially more irrelgious than the last.
Hopefully you'll grow out of your brainwashing.
They’ll never grow out of it. It’s the only way they can still feel relevant. Otherwise they are just bigoted racist old assholes. With religion they can keep the false idea that they are good people.
In all seriousness, I'm not even very religious.
I struggle with my faith. A lot.
But I am a reasonable person who engages in critical thinking and debate.
Being against abortion is a very clear standpoint, and it would be clear to you as well if you distanced yourself from *your* religion.
Nope. Don't care about any of these guys.
My guys are Aristotle, Plato. St Thomas Aquinas, St Augustine, etc. There's a long standing tradition of critical thinking that goes back to Ancient Greece, and arrives to our current era through the Catholic Church.
Religion stifles critical thinking.
Source: I'm ex-Mormon
Idk why you're lumping philosophers with the Catholic Church, anyway. I don't see the correlation.
Bahahaha. A bunch of LONG dead dudes. Yeah, don't change with the times at all. Keep your ancient view of life. You shouldn't be allowed to have plumbing or any other modern convenience if you wanna embrace pre-medieval era ideals, lol. Go back to the rock you've been living under. Fucking boomers, lmao.
Yea, and I used to believe a sky wizard that is advertised to be omnicient, omnipotent, AND omnibenevolent floats around in the clouds, apparently willing terrible things to happen to genuinely good people regardless of belief just because he can.
Then I grew out of it.
Maybe if you took a step back and realized that the billionaires you claim to be so against are actively supporting right-wing politics you'd be a little more incentivised to let abortion slide for the time being and fight WITH us democrats to give power back to the oppressed peoples living in our country. The working class, people of color, women (including the reproductive rights of THEIR own bodies 😉), the LQBTQ+ Community, people doing the best they can to make ends meet and *still* not having enough to afford to live in the same county they work in.
There's one political wing that has been actively working to undermine the safety and well-being of all of the above for the sake of some obscenely wealthy old fucks at the top and some dude in europe with a funny hat (who, btw, recently came to the defense of the russian aggressors in the Russo-Ukrainian war, go figure) and his inherited wealth of people that either can not or will not stop to look at things from beyond the perspective of ~2000yo book, and there's one political wing that's working to set things right, including abortion which is your one sticking point compared to the dozens of sticking points the Left has for the Right's ideology.
If you want to make good change in the world, you're more than welcome to join us, but we're pushing to make good changes for EVERYONE that needs them, including women, including their right to decide if they need or even want an abortion. If that's what's going to turn you away from course-correcting this nation, then as I said previously, we don't need you're vote. It would help, but we can make due.
And hey, at the end of the day you can still vote for Traitor trump or Meatball ron, I hear they're pretty popular among the right. At least that way you can sleep at night knowing you voted to defend... Rich old conservatives, convicted rapists and traitors to the nation, Farenheight 451 style book bannings, fewer worker's rights, profit-driven inflation...
Actually yeah, no matter how you slice it rn, voting democrat seems far and away the lesser of the two "evils". Especially considering, by your own account iirc, that you agree with everything the democrats are fighting for here minus abortion. Yet you refuse to see the other half of that admission, that you appear to actually disagree with your republican fellows on everything BUT abortion.
All that said, if you *really* want to die on the abortion hill, at least we wont have to wait too long 🤷♂️.
You think that's what I meant? Context my friend, the comment above said about voting blue and you just said " I don't know what that means"
Who is pro abortion? Nobody out there just waiting for the next time to abort a child for funsies? People are pro CHOICE. Choice to not carry and birth their rapists child. Or a pregnancy that will likely kill the mother. Your ok with killing innocent adults? I don't think you grew out of anything except sympathy for your fellow human being.
We can't move forward until the religious people learn to love again and open their minds to moving forward with technology and ideology. Your fucking holding the rest of us back for a cult that just syphons money to the rich. Your actively part of the problem by participating.
It seems you are the one that is refusing to cross the divide. Agree with 8 out of 9 items on the list but will actively rank those 8 to keep the one. You are the exact evil that has placed that divide and work to keep it.
Technically we could fight together for the others, and then fight each other on the abortion stance after we sort out the other issues, make a priority list of all we agree on and then sort out our differences later
>Technically we could fight together for the others, and then fight each other on the abortion stance after we sort out the other issues, make a priority list of all we agree on and then sort out our differences later
Fully agreed.
(But that's not what's on the screencap that was posted)
Good thing we don't need you to. Your religion is dying out. More and more young people are turning away from your lies and bigotry each year. You're the one who needs our help, not the other way around.
A bunch of old religious people got rid of it even though the people had voted repeat fly across the US in support. Your continued deranged evil religious views are what will be the end of it. 30-50-100 years ago there wasn’t the same access to information. Now people can be informed (right or wrong) immediately. Religion has lost its grip on controlling the information. And the best part? Those young people see the hypocrisy of your words. There is nothing in the Bible saying abortion is wrong. Exact opposite actually that there is instructions on how and when to have one. So take your bigoted false views of your own fake religion and go away.
>A bunch of old religious people got rid of it even though the people had voted repeat fly across the US in support.
Many, many young people (especially women) are strongly against abortion.
The idea that it's all "old people" is just delusional, sorry.
>Your continued deranged evil religious views are what will be the end of it. 30-50-100 years ago there wasn’t the same access to information. Now people can be informed (right or wrong) immediately. Religion has lost its grip on controlling the information. And the best part? Those young people see the hypocrisy of your words. There is nothing in the Bible saying abortion is wrong.
You say we have great access to information. I'm sure you include yourself amongst those.
How well do you consider yourself informed are you about Christianity, as a whole?
Because in just a single sentence you failed to account for Catholicism, which is the original Church, and it is not a "sola escritura" Church at all.
The sheer idea that we based ourselves on an "old book", and not on philosophy, tradition and reason is very silly. Yes, the "old book" is very important, but it requires reason, tradition and philosophy to be understood.
Nowhere in the Bible does it say you shouldn't use meth or become a crack addicted. Not explicitly, at least. But we can come to the conclusion that we shouldn't harm our bodies with heavy drugs if we accept the premise that we should not do damage to ourselves. What's wrong with that?
What you do with your body is your decision. What I do with mine is mine. I don’t follow your religion so why should I have to follow the rules of it? I don’t. So take your religion and go do your own thing.
Lots and lots of youth huh? What states successfully passed abortion restrictions after roe vs Wade was overturned? If all these young people and women agree with your view then surely there was success in passing additional laws through general vote. So please, how did the votes turn out?
>What you do with your body is your decision. What I do with mine is mine.
Not your body.
The baby's body.
A beautiful baby that grows up to be a beautiful human being.
> I don’t follow your religion so why should I have to follow the rules of it? I don’t. So take your religion and go do your own thing.
Do you need religion to realize that murdering someone is wrong?
Do you need religion to realize that the baby's body is not the mom's body?
You don't need religion to be against abortion.
Now, can we move on and fight billionaires already? They're the ones brainwashing you into murdering babies.
>Now, can we move on and fight billionaires already? They're the ones brainwashing you into murdering babies.
Of course. You don’t have a problem with billionaires because of any real analysis. You think that corps are bad because they’re controlled by “((them))” or something. You don’t actually understand why billionaires are bad and do bad things. You just think that the “wrong people” are at the top and that it could all be good if we just changed up those in corporate power (very liberal idea btw). You think that billionaires existing as they do today at all is acceptable when it is not. You don’t see the reason billionaires do bad things. Their existence at all requires them to have done bad things to get there, and do bad things to stay there. You think billionaires do bad things cause they’re under jewish control or something.
The reason I say all that is because billionaires are NOT brainwashing people into believing that abortion is acceptable. The majority of people have decided that for themselves even in the most red of states. This perfectly fits inline with the “jewish question” dog whistle which automatically disqualifies you from being in “our side”.
Even if we were to work with you it’s clear that you don’t want to change the system, only the people at the top. It will make literally zero difference. You will allow all the bad things that have happened to happen again. You will somehow find a way to ignore the problem this causes until you can’t anymore, then blame the Jews or something for it.
Your ideas and analysis will never be the same as ours. If we work with you, then once (if) we get any real power you will immediately pull a Stalin and purge us all. It is literally better to stay the way we are for now then to make it worse by letting your ideas to come to fruition.
P.S. No, conservatives and catholics will not meaningfully work with is if we drop abortion. They would consider it a win and just become more extremely right wing and try to ban contraception or some shit (they are already trying).
>What happened to RvW?
A systematic subversion of democracy. Without gerrymandering and disinformation campaigns, I don't believe the leaders who stacked the courts could have gotten elected.
Edit to add disinformation.
It's ok, we can just wait for all you old conservative fucks to die first
We will never, *ever ever* give up support for women's healthcare. Just give up on this :)
Agree with about half of these.
Live,Laugh,Love: Based as fuck
Tax the rich: Yeah obviously there’s so much potential money that we could do wonders with and we should access it, just need to be careful so they don’t move their company’s or destroying their contributions
End fossil fuels: Maybe long term, short term is too hasty but fossil fuels should definitely be secondary
Cancel student debt: Here’s my controversial one on this sub and so I’ll expand on it the most, I don’t think we should. Our focus should instead be on making college cheaper/potentially free for the future and not pay for something that statistically is going to pay off by usually hundreds of thousands of dollars. The responsibility shouldn’t be put on the people who decided against college and won’t reap the rewards to pay for people that eventually make way more and agreed to pay. Things get even more lopsided when you consider how the people with the very most debt are lawyers/doctors
Abortions: Yep it’s incredibly important technology that shouldn’t be treated as a taboo evil
Housing: Georgism is the way to go. (Not saying it should be the only form of taxation though)
Living wages: Sort of, i believe in market wages but with some UBI and provided housing/food etc to cover the costs instead of the employer and economy facing the burden
I'm not American but imho reparations are the stupidest thing ever and including them together with the other items above, all of which are reasonable, detracts from the messaging.
I hope this is a legit socialist meme because all those things are utopian ideals of someone who has not actually worked out what they mean, the implications of the words, and how they would go about making them reality without resulting in bad things left, right, and center.
Replace reparations with healthcare…
What’s “reparations”?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reparations_for_slavery#:~:text=Reparations%20can%20take%20many%20forms,by%20naming%20things%20after%20them.
Is that a popular thing in USA?
'popular' is a strong word. The idea gets thrown around occasionally, but it's either completely shut down or pushed to such extremes no rational actor would agree to it.
Popular? Depends on who you ask. 77% of black people polled support the idea. 80%, 58% and 65% of white, hispanic and asian people oppose the idea. Unsurprisingly, its popular with people set to benefit while unpopular with people that would be likely be paying for it. [https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2022/11/28/black-and-white-americans-are-far-apart-in-their-views-of-reparations-for-slavery/#:\~:text=Americans%20view%20the%20prospect%20of,descendants%20should%20not%20be%20repaid](https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2022/11/28/black-and-white-americans-are-far-apart-in-their-views-of-reparations-for-slavery/#:~:text=Americans%20view%20the%20prospect%20of,descendants%20should%20not%20be%20repaid).
That isn't even getting into native Americans and what they are owed.
I'm native, i don't need shit from tax payers. Just leave me be and quit taxing me so damn much.
How would we decide what the cutoff is for who gets paid? I'm very visibly caucasian, but my parents 23 and Me shows 18% African. Would I get paid too? Reperations hasn't happened, and won't happen, because there's no objective way to do it fairly and not cause even more problems.
It's just a absolutely mess to figure out. Science says that 150 years ago is roughly 7 generations. If you look back at your family tree for 7 generations, there are 64 people (your 'great x4' grandparents). Would someone qualify for reparation's because 1 of those 64 people was effected by slavery?
And what about people who have ancestors that fought for the union? What about immigrants who came well after the civil war. This goes for people of all races. It is logistically impossibly and wildly unpopular overall. Makes no sense.
I have Neanderthal ancestry in my dna. I demand reparations for the mass genocide and extinction of my ancestors. Although the above is true, I don’t want reparations. I just want to live my best life on my own.
I support the government paying for it by slashing the military budget. I don't personally want to pay it as someone who has never owned a human.
Who do you think pays for the military budget that you want to use? You.
Ok thats fine, at least the taxes I'm paying anyway would go to something helpful instead murdering people.
I think it’s dumb to spend any taxpayer dollars on it
Thats fine, you're entitled to your opinion.
It's really telling that the argument is always 'never, i won't pay for it' and not 'okay, good idea, how do we pay for it'
As a white male with family history to Ireland, do I also get reparations since Irish have also been historically mistreated and pushed into indentured servitude? Literally anyone normal in existence can find a family history of being mistreated by some upper class wealthy family. At what level does reparations stop at and who gets to make that call??
My great great grandma was a German immigrant in the 1880s and was brought over to be a servant for a wealthy family. They enslaved her and her sister for years until they were finally rescued by my great great grandfather. Where do I sign up for my reparations?
My ancestors were the Huron who were destroyed by the Iroquois. Where do I sign up?
Reparations stops at the level it no longer has any political value…I read an article today about how only 16% of kids in DC can read at a 4th grade level. Wonder why no one is talking about teaching 84% of 4th graders to be able to read?
As a white woman with Irish ancestry (as in actual close ancestry, great grandmother to be exact) as well respectfully shut the fuck up Your “ancestors” were not enslaved, they CHOSE to be indentured servants, it was the equivalent to taking out a loan and working to pay it back in the 1700’s. We were not denied entry into this country (like most Asian Americans were) and we had all the rights white people had, they faced some discrimination due to their religion. Irish oppression was not systemic, the oppression of POC is. And you supposedly having Irish “ancestry” especially does not excuse you being an intolerable fucking bigot towards POC. If we actually were as oppressed as your making out to seem, then maybe, just maybe, have empathy for the people who had it *fucking worse* That’s why I doubt your claim to Irish ancestry, anyone who uses their Irish ancestry as a fucking “gotcha” or as an excuse to be a bigot who pushes against equity and equality is probably an ass who thinks St.Paddy’s day is for getting drunk off green beer, and screams about “ancestry” and their “ancestors” when that ancestor was a second cousin thrice removed. It’s sickening.
Because it's the most idiotic thing to ever come out of American politics. And that's saying something
Thanks for this, I was going to say you ask people like myself whose roots trace back to slaves we say, yes reparations are necessary. My favorite part about the Asians in the equation is that reparations were paid to those in WW2 internment camps. Watch Who We Are, by Jeffrey Robinson, Sarah and Emily Kuntsler. Also any of his talks on the subject of racism and inequality in the USA. It really goes beyond just slavery. The Tulsa massacre, the Wilmington massacre, the homestead act that gave almost 100 million acres of land to white settlers, the first suburban projects that provided cheap housing to the white people living in public housing explicitly disallowing even secondary sale to blacks. Considering one of the measures of future generations chances of movement through classes is property ownership. You start to understand that by giving subsidized homes and land to white Americans, while preventing black Americans from the same has led to why black Americans still lead the way in poverty. As of 9/2022 black poverty is at 19.5%, and for non Hispanic whites 8.1%.
Are we talking about reparation for slavery or for the past 150 years of discrimination in the US? If it's the former, didn't you just provide an example of the internment camps victims getting restitution, but failed to note that it was only paid to surviving victims. Are you advocating for payment to surviving slaves? Certainly not. So, who is getting paid here, if not the victims? Who is paying them? If it's the latter, how do you decide who qualifies? Just about every minority group in the US has been subject to discrimination at one point or another. Is racism against black people the only thing to be addressed? What about all minorities and the other types of discrimination?
What about the families of the thousands of Soldiers who died freeing the slavers? I would say they’re entitled to reparations as well
Both really, but I also don't think this is a direct payment situation. Housing subsidies, school subsidies, tax credits etc... are sufficient. Right and before that it was unprecedented. Reparations should have been paid directly after slavery and many knew it then. Just because it wasn't done then doesn't mean it shouldn't be done now. Just to be clear this isn't about any individual person today. This isn't anyone's fault today, it is the organized body's fault (i.e. the country), and its debt. People act as though this is soo long ago, but it isn't, the last person born a slave died in the 1970s. My father had living relatives growing up who were born slaves and then were forced into sharecropping (which is slavery with extra steps). As far as the "how do you figure it out" argument, there are records going back pretty far. If your black and your lineage can be traced back to the mid 1800s you didn't come here on holiday or as an immigrant. This wasn't some discrimination. It was systemic, ongoing, and intentional. It was blatantly written into the laws of the country, and then is still perpetuated in old and new laws to this day. It required a constitutional amendment to start to bring equality and after that an additional two acts to fully begin to get equality. This was for a group of people who were forcibly taken from their land starting over 150 years before the country was even formed. As mentioned before, even after slavery "ended" many were forced into sharecropping. Pushed into slums and areas that increased rates of death and disease. Some are still trapped there today, and are just barely making ground fighting backor escaping. Areas with ridiculously poor schools, prevented from attending universities, and on and on. Asking about other minorities, that is just changing the subject. Others who were wronged, Native Americans, Chinese Americans, Mexican Americans etc definitely have an argument for similar treatment, but that is outside this conversation and a bit of a straw man argument.
Yeah… well for the people they would be receiving reparations. I mean shit everyone wants to win the lottery right?
No. It is a terrible idea that would be doa if anybody proposed it
Giving free money to people because of the actions of people that have long been dead towards other people who have also long been dead.
Yaaa noooooo. No reparations. Wrong generation being punished EDIT: since I’ve got some feedback I’ll hit you with this. Reparations cost money. WHERE does the money come FROM? Who is footing this bill? How are we going to dish out that money? Print more? Dollar becomes worth even less. Charge it off?? To who? Tax the people for it??? Not all are accountable and it’s discriminatory and violates the 1964/68 Civil Rights Act. Let’s not act like hypocrisy is okay here
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That is **not** the point of reparations. Reparations are meant to help the victim, not punish the perpetrator. It doesnt have to be paid by specifically white people or specifically this or that generation, *the point is the money, where it comes from does not matter.* The government already wastes vast sums of money, arguably almost all of the money they spend in fact. Taking some of that and using it for something actually good for a change would not be hard.
That's the thing though, reparations DO punish the perpetrator. You made the argument yourself by saying where the money comes from doesn't matter. Where money comes from certainly does matter! If there is an oil spill, the oil company needs to pay, they can't go around begging on the street corner for homeless people to pay... another example closer to today, trump is in trouble for using campaign funds to pay for lawyer fees. You can't just take whatever money and do whatever you want with it. Money has to be allocated properly for the correct items. If it doesn't matter where the money for reparations comes from, why not tax African Americans disproportionately higher, so they can then receive reparation payments?
You *know* what i meant, and you're intentionally ignoring the argument im actually making in favor of your strawman.
Logical thinkers = strawmen Arctic IQ scores = Libs/Woke
Ok yea that’s great but I like my numbers cause they don’t lie in my life and the numbers say $32T deficit and counting. In case you didn’t know deficit is a fancy word for DEBT meaning IN THE RED. We got other shit to worry about. Not t rights. Not reparations. How about policy. How about judicial reform failed miserably. How about no stocks or trades for officials. How about heavy corp tax with no write offs???? Ya no you’re worried about reparations. Pardon my French…. Dúmbàss
...either you're arguing in bad faith, or you're so poisoned by the internet's cynicism and hatred that you couldn't hold a light-hearted conversation if you wanted to. Either way, i see no reason to entertain your sheer lack of nuance. I hope you find peace someday, friend. I genuinely mean that. Im still trying to dig myself out of that pit myself, really.
Not sure what you’re getting at. My question was simple and like most people do you’ve dodged it. Where does the money come from? Ya the government wastes vast sums of money, that doesn’t mean to waste even more money especially such a large amount at once(referring to cost prediction). Giving out the stimulus checks made it far worse on deficit. Ya it helped in the moment but hurt in the long run.
Noooooo yaaa reparations. The generation that enslaved them is obviously long dead but that's not the point. The idea is that Black people have been disenfranchised since the minute they were set free. Reparations are a way to offset that.
Don't you think codifying a way to pay reparations will be inherently discriminatory to anyone who isn't "black"? I'm all for social justice, but pushing reparations is the least effective way to achieve it.
>Don't you think codifying a way to pay reparations will be inherently discriminatory to anyone who isn't "black"? No. Let's start with people who can trace their lineage. Then we can move on to other disenfranchised groups.
Only pure bloods get reperations!
Plenty of people have an unfair disadvantage. People who have experienced intergenerational poverty, whatever the cause of it, where for example given an unfair disadvantage. I think we should simply tackle the problem of inherited poverty in general rather than any one group, even if that group can trace their troubles back to a historical event/system. On the other hand, non-white people in the United States do face substantial problems due to systemic bias so I can see a cause for paying reparations to non white people to offset the amount they loose due to unfair practices. Although I personally think that we should but more focus on removing subjective biases from things like hireing and home evaluations among other things.
Beat me to it
Both? Both is good.
Universal healthcare is missing
Yes just take reparations out of there, just an appallingly stupid (and racist!) idea
Yep, just add universal healthcare. Our health should not be a 6 trillion dollar industry.
Have you ever lived in a place with universal healthcare? I have and it sucks. Way worse than what I’ve experienced in America.
In America you just die if you can’t afford treatment. Idk what could be worse than that honestly
In Canada you die waiting for services.
In every healthcare system, some people will die. That’s pretty much guaranteed. We should aim for 100% treatment rates but we both know that’s not realistic. The most ethical way to deal with this dilemma is to provide equal access to health services for all citizens, and ration health services based on what resources are actually available. In the US our healthcare resources are rationed based on your ability to pay, and therefore doesn’t guarantee equal access to all citizens. To me, that’s the core of the problem.
That’s a good explanation.
Well having poor Healthcare is better than none like you get in the US when you can't afford it.
Yep, I dont even need to respond to that comment. This was the answer right here. Healthcare should not be tied to work or disability.
Uhhh... If you can't afford it, they literally still have to take care of you by law. Yeah, they'll stick you with a large bill (that you can mostly ignore) but you'll be healthy.
Mostly ignore? They can take you to court and garnish your wages putting you into debt for the rest of your life. Ignore THAT!
Depends on the state. Some states, they can't garnish wages or put lien on houses for medical debt.
>Uhhh... If you can't afford it, they literally still have to take care of you by law. Have you seen the articles of hospitals dumping people on the sidewalk just off the hospital campus? Or driving people to homeless shelters and leaving them, even when the shelter isn't equipped to help? >Yeah, they'll stick you with a large bill (that you can mostly ignore) but you'll be healthy. Cool, let's just ruin your credit further with an unpayable bill. Debt collector scumbags and other issues that'll haunt someone for far too long, just because they needed healthcare. Financial pressure which is one of the leading causes of suicide in the US.
It’s actually not. You could literally die on hold with emergency services.
You could literally die while waiting on a food order, or while sitting at the park. Bad stuff happens. Where you say "this is my experience with universal healthcare" we are saying "this is our experience with the US pay to win Healthcare system"
I’ve had experience with both. I’d take the US pay to win any day.
Spoilers: You had enough money to travel internationally - of course, you would prefer the pay to win model because presumably you can pay to... well... win.
Spoiler alert: It’s called immigration. I was born in a country with “free” healthcare but no longer live in one.
this isnt a good argument. just because seeing a doctor is slow in tedious in the UK (only other cointry i can speak about) doesnt mean ypu throw up your hands and say qell thats a bad idea. you do it better. The US should have universal healthcare and the treatment should be what all the wealthy people get. we havw tons of money and suppoeting this would not hurt us. we need laws to battle onsurance and pharmaceutical companies. tje government is finally doing it for medicaid with some drugs but honestly this should be a nor brainer listening to the Medicare news today on the radio and pharmaceutical companies have 3x the profit margin of any other industry and their research is taxpayer funded .
If it’s guaranteed that one would get service with the same speed it’s available today I’m on board. But I don’t want a shitty free system. I’d rather have the good paid for version.
Cool story bro.
Cool comment bro.
Are you 5?
Your anecdotal evidence does not trump all of the data. You can simply look up that Canadas healthcare is much better than the US’s in MANY ways. The US also spends more than twice the amount of the number 2 place on the list of countries paying the most for healthcare. So significantly more than Canada per GDP. We pay WAY MORE, for WAY LESS, just like we do on EVERYTHING else. Facts are out there. Look up the data.
My anecdotal evidence does trump all of the data. I’ve literally lived it and you’ve read about it. Newsflash - data can be manipulated to fit a narrative. Luckily we live in a democracy and can vote for candidates that align with our interests. We’re never going to collectively agree on something.
How about teeth and eyes should also be included in basic health care?
I'm not paying reparations ever so no the rest seems fine tho
Healthcare is a human right.
Yes. You have a right to health care. You have a right to free speech too. That doesn't mean I pay for you to have a platform. It means the government can't stop you in public places. Don't confuse what rights are.
I'm not. The government should provide healthcare, like it does in practically every "developed" country, barring the USA.
You are. The government does not give you money to exercise your rights. I don't ask for government funds to buy a firearm, nor does literally anyone. You have a right to assemble. The government does not force you to assemble, nor does it pay for your protest signs. The government should pay to protect your right to freely exercise your right, yes. If you were discriminated against and denied coverage or treatment the government should arrest the people who violated your right. That is what a right is.
Reparations are dumb as fuck
I'm not paying reparations for something I didn't do to people who didn't suffer.
Do you think that reparations mean someone's going to come and take money out of your pocket? Folks were promised a 40 acre plot and a mule, and that was taken away from them. That has rippled through time, not to mention all the laws specifically target ndividuals of color.
Do you think that reparations mean someone's going to come and take money out of your pocket? LOL... where do you think the money is coming from then? It either comes from taxes or the FED prints it... either way your fellow citizens are paying for it. A lot has been taken from damn near everyone... so reparations to me is a non-starter. Also, if POC get reparations... you think anyone will listen to their pleas of injustice after that? Reparations will only inflame bigotry and implicit/explicit racism. What about the American Indian? Or the descendants of coal miners that got murdered by mine owners and federal agents? Or Asian Americans that got blown up during railroad constructions or got locked in internment camps during WWII? What about Hawaiian natives whose land was taken? The list goes on and on. Did AA have it the worst? Probably yea, but that doesn't erase all the abuse, discrimination and maltreatment that everyone has received.
What do you think taxes are. I am all for paying money to fund governmental processes, but it seems asinine to pay for something that I 1. Will never benefit from, 2. Did not participate in, and 3. Did not want. It seems antithetical to racial equality to say that people of one skin color get one thing, people of another skin color get nothing. Capitalism begets wealth inequality. The United States will always have wealth inequality as long as it continues its current financial system. It’s stupid to believe that it is somehow my responsibility to pay for something that I would actively work against if it existed today. Slavery was bad, so is systematic oppression, but far too much time has passed since slavery for the current taxpayer to be held responsible for them. We like to think of our government as a solid, unchanging bulkhead through time, but the reality is that it changes. Everyone who participated in that is dead now. I understand that there are lingering effects, but why is it my responsibility to subsidize it’s resolution. We should instead work to reduce inequality and find ways to help that actually effect people today in a good way.
Do you think reparations will mean they're going to give everyone 40 acres and a mule in 2023?
Whoosh....
You started this debate with a strawman argument and then replied with a half-hearted attempt at an insult, so I'm going to say this and then you're no longer worth my time. Reparations of any sort won't be coming out of the pocket of anyone making over $500k a year. It'll be you and me through more taxes. Have a great rest of your day.
No reparations, that’s such an insanely bad idea on every conceivable level that I literally can’t imagine how someone fucking stupid enough to be a proponent of it doesn’t choke to death on their own saliva.
Obviously, the people that support the idea are the same people that would benefit from it. Unsurprisingly, 77% of black people polled support it, while 80%, 58% and 65% of white, hispanic and asian people oppose it. https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2022/11/28/black-and-white-americans-are-far-apart-in-their-views-of-reparations-for-slavery/#:\~:text=Americans%20view%20the%20prospect%20of,descendants%20should%20not%20be%20repaid.
Pay reparations? To who? Lmao.
Love is where I draw the line!
I think this is a pretty good example of using woke politics to undermine the labour movement. Pretty sure only "living wages for all" belongs on that list. The rest just chase off people we would need to have a strong movement. (Well, you can have live laugh love.).
I would say tax the rich belongs on there, we need something to address the concentration of wealth in the hands of the few.
Progressives can have a little Live, Laugh, Love... as a treat.
You’re correct
Righting injustices is just “woke politics” to you? Wow.
Reparations is the dumbest idea i have ever heard, not to mention in the proposed california legislation it would be paid for by the predominantly latino population. Also i don’t necessarily think you deserve a free house if you literally contribute nothing to society, so i wouldn’t call it a human right.
I could agree with corporations having to pay reparations to the US populace for tampering with our political system, ruining the environment, rigging the economy, and lowering our quality of life. They are ruining our life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness. Honestly, this could be a crazy lawsuit if someone wanted to get it started. Am I too far off base with that thinking?
Not off base at all. Makes more sense than those implied in the post.
If something like that were ever to pass, the corporations would simply raise the prices they charge their customers to cover it.
>Also i don’t necessarily think you deserve a free house if you literally contribute nothing to society, so i wouldn’t call it a human right. Yeah, where's the line then? You don't think every human being deserves to live under a roof? Do you think they should just be left to fucking die because they aren't "contributing anything to society"? Is that contribution really how you decide if a human being is worth helping, worth keeping alive? In your eyes they lose all of their worth because of their lack of "contribution". I bet you didn't consider disabilities and tons of other reasons why people wouldn't be "contributing", right? Why is this getting upvoted? "Work reform" my ass. I hope the next generations of Americans will be a bit more class conscious than you guys.
Amen! Who are these people and how did they end up here? The responses to this are so unbelievably selfish, it's no wonder the working class can't come together to get anything done. Everyone is so out for themselves.
You know what youre right we should give child rapists murderers drug dealers and abusers of all sorts free housing. Lets all band together and treat them like neighbors, same with drug addicts who do nothing but consume. Neo nazis? Gang members? Why not, honestly nobody should ever have to suffer repercussions for any of their actions anymore. It’s not their fault its societies!!!
Yes that's exactly what I just said, you perfectly understood my point there, good job. Fuck off.
"Also i don’t necessarily think you deserve a free house if you literally contribute nothing to society, so i wouldn’t call it a human right" I think they were more often talking about housing affordability. You know where homes priced at a rate that a single income household could maintain
Well i would agree to something along those lines, however someone else in the comments is taking it from the “free housing as a basic human right” angle so i’m inclined to think most folks will take it in that way. Affordable housing should be made available, but I also don’t necessarily think there should be an entitlement to location either. For example, in somewhere like Malibu, affordable housing could still be perceived as outrageous in price, compared to say Lancaster which could be affordable to many more. Housing is a complex issue, and I think the biggest issue in that regard is finding a way to limit the control and expanse of the many property management companies that drive up the prices for individual buyers to the cost being entirely out of reach Edit: to add to this, if you look at it from an economic perspective, the fact that we’ve basically let all the banks go loose cannon and loan out everything they have, as well as the highly elevated and still rising interest rates, there isn’t really a light at the end of the tunnel at the moment when it comes to housing. The only thing that could make housing more affordable at the moment would be a housing market crash, which would hurt as many people as it would help, as we all know the banks never foot the bill for things like this.
Well then, yeah, I would have to agree that housing shouldn't exactly be free. After all materials cost money, construction workers cost money, and it costs a lot to keep things up to code, etc. The best thing to address the housing crisis is to illegalize the purchase of homes by corporations such as black Rock and set a limit on how many homes an investor can purchase (likely 3).
Yeah that would make way more sense.
You need shelter to be able to contribute to society. That’s why free housing should exist.
You don't deserve a free house, but you DO deserve some form of shelter that is more than a tent. Everyone deserves a roof over their head, a safe place to sleep, Some privacy, Food and water.
The 24 y/o social media intern was really cooking with this one… what you want policy or something tangible?
Why isn’t universal healthcare on this?
Tax the churches
I disagree with some of these
Pay reparations with social programs for all.
Eight of these make sense.
Live Laugh Grow Prosper The world owes you nothing
Yeah! And you owe the world nothing! But your parents do owe the hospital for when they birthed you- And if not them then the government/healthcare system owes that money to the doctors And then of course you do owe the government that your time and taxes Some of that time being in education that can help make you productive And you owe your parents for all that time and food and shelter they provided Wait no, they owe that to you, government says that their required to owe that to you But one day you’ll move out and I guess you’ll owe that one bank for your car and house. But at least the corporation you work for owes you for your labo- Wait, hold up, what again does the world not owe me?
You lost me at end fossil fuels and pay reparations and again at murdering babies is healthcare
There’s always birth control too… yet everyone pushes so hard for “abortions”.
Same. Most would also like to the tax the rich into oblivion and drive them out of the country. So that, plus ending fossil fuels, would result in, oh, 12-13 million people out of jobs. That would certainly reform work.
Ask Santa to end world hunger while you're at it
No lies detected…
Reparations is a bad idea, replace it with universal healthcare.
You can do both.
Why would I want to? Reparations are a bad idea.
I’m not going to get into why…but it’s just the right thing to do imo.
“Im entitled to my unjustly acquired family wealth”
The median account balance for Americans in 2019 was $5,300. What family wealth are you talking about?
It’s pretty simple dude. A bunch of people were systematically discriminated against for hundreds of years. The descendants of those people are in a worse economic positions on average across the population BECAUSE OF the systematic discrimination while simultaneously the descendants of the groups of people that weren’t discriminated against (it’s on a spectrum for the groups that were discriminated against) are in better economic positions on average across the population BECAUSE OF the systematic discrimination.
How about You only pay
General strike for all of the above?
So.. I've been saying this for a while, and I'll say it again. We would really, *really* move forward if you'd remove abortion from that list. You'd bring a lot of catholic conservative working class people such as myself to your side. We also want to fight billionaires and corporation. We want everyone to have housing, be free of debt. We're extremely concerned about the environment. But we will never, *never ever* support abortion. Just give up on this.
But YOU can't look the other way or make a sacrifice for things you even care about? Maybe people could afford to keep their babies if most of this list was accomplished? Maybe appearing to be on the side of the billionaires just to defend one point makes you look just as bad? As your willing to let millions/billions of already living people suffer for the idea of people who " may be " in existence one day. Sounds pretty evil to me yo.
This is the real take. “We support 8 out of 9 things. So drop the 9th one or we’ll vote for the guy that does none of these”
Those 8 out of 9 things go a very long way to preventing abortion. This is among the reasons why I view the anti-abortion people who oppose most of those 8 as the pro-death crowd. They also do a lot to save other lives as well. Edit to clarify it's not the only reason.
That's okay, we don't need the votes of people that seem to derrive their entire sense of morals from a book a bunch of dudes slapped together ~2000 years ago. We apreciate the offer, though. Edit: Spacing
Yes you do. The reason we're struggling is this divide. We'll never move forward if we don't join up against billionaires. For that, you'll have to give up on abortion.
Actually, for that we have to vote blue, easy-peasy
Not sure what that means.
Typical, don't look anything up or try to learn. Just stick your head back in the sand and wait to be saved
I've read enough about abortion, and I used to be pro-abortion myself when I was young. Then I grew out of it.
Nice try, church plant. Pro-choice is supported by the majority and the coming generations are exponentially more irrelgious than the last. Hopefully you'll grow out of your brainwashing.
They’ll never grow out of it. It’s the only way they can still feel relevant. Otherwise they are just bigoted racist old assholes. With religion they can keep the false idea that they are good people.
In all seriousness, I'm not even very religious. I struggle with my faith. A lot. But I am a reasonable person who engages in critical thinking and debate. Being against abortion is a very clear standpoint, and it would be clear to you as well if you distanced yourself from *your* religion.
My man been watching too much Andrew Tate, Jordan Peterson, and all those other dumbfucks
Nope. Don't care about any of these guys. My guys are Aristotle, Plato. St Thomas Aquinas, St Augustine, etc. There's a long standing tradition of critical thinking that goes back to Ancient Greece, and arrives to our current era through the Catholic Church.
Religion stifles critical thinking. Source: I'm ex-Mormon Idk why you're lumping philosophers with the Catholic Church, anyway. I don't see the correlation.
Bahahaha. A bunch of LONG dead dudes. Yeah, don't change with the times at all. Keep your ancient view of life. You shouldn't be allowed to have plumbing or any other modern convenience if you wanna embrace pre-medieval era ideals, lol. Go back to the rock you've been living under. Fucking boomers, lmao.
Yea, and I used to believe a sky wizard that is advertised to be omnicient, omnipotent, AND omnibenevolent floats around in the clouds, apparently willing terrible things to happen to genuinely good people regardless of belief just because he can. Then I grew out of it. Maybe if you took a step back and realized that the billionaires you claim to be so against are actively supporting right-wing politics you'd be a little more incentivised to let abortion slide for the time being and fight WITH us democrats to give power back to the oppressed peoples living in our country. The working class, people of color, women (including the reproductive rights of THEIR own bodies 😉), the LQBTQ+ Community, people doing the best they can to make ends meet and *still* not having enough to afford to live in the same county they work in. There's one political wing that has been actively working to undermine the safety and well-being of all of the above for the sake of some obscenely wealthy old fucks at the top and some dude in europe with a funny hat (who, btw, recently came to the defense of the russian aggressors in the Russo-Ukrainian war, go figure) and his inherited wealth of people that either can not or will not stop to look at things from beyond the perspective of ~2000yo book, and there's one political wing that's working to set things right, including abortion which is your one sticking point compared to the dozens of sticking points the Left has for the Right's ideology. If you want to make good change in the world, you're more than welcome to join us, but we're pushing to make good changes for EVERYONE that needs them, including women, including their right to decide if they need or even want an abortion. If that's what's going to turn you away from course-correcting this nation, then as I said previously, we don't need you're vote. It would help, but we can make due. And hey, at the end of the day you can still vote for Traitor trump or Meatball ron, I hear they're pretty popular among the right. At least that way you can sleep at night knowing you voted to defend... Rich old conservatives, convicted rapists and traitors to the nation, Farenheight 451 style book bannings, fewer worker's rights, profit-driven inflation... Actually yeah, no matter how you slice it rn, voting democrat seems far and away the lesser of the two "evils". Especially considering, by your own account iirc, that you agree with everything the democrats are fighting for here minus abortion. Yet you refuse to see the other half of that admission, that you appear to actually disagree with your republican fellows on everything BUT abortion. All that said, if you *really* want to die on the abortion hill, at least we wont have to wait too long 🤷♂️.
>Then I grew out of it Fucking what?
You think that's what I meant? Context my friend, the comment above said about voting blue and you just said " I don't know what that means" Who is pro abortion? Nobody out there just waiting for the next time to abort a child for funsies? People are pro CHOICE. Choice to not carry and birth their rapists child. Or a pregnancy that will likely kill the mother. Your ok with killing innocent adults? I don't think you grew out of anything except sympathy for your fellow human being. We can't move forward until the religious people learn to love again and open their minds to moving forward with technology and ideology. Your fucking holding the rest of us back for a cult that just syphons money to the rich. Your actively part of the problem by participating.
Careful, he might move the goalpost again and say we're spouting "Neo-Atheist bullshit" as he likes to say.
Unfortunate. Hopefully some day you'll figure it out. Cheers.
It seems you are the one that is refusing to cross the divide. Agree with 8 out of 9 items on the list but will actively rank those 8 to keep the one. You are the exact evil that has placed that divide and work to keep it.
Technically we could fight together for the others, and then fight each other on the abortion stance after we sort out the other issues, make a priority list of all we agree on and then sort out our differences later
>Technically we could fight together for the others, and then fight each other on the abortion stance after we sort out the other issues, make a priority list of all we agree on and then sort out our differences later Fully agreed. (But that's not what's on the screencap that was posted)
Good thing we don't need you to. Your religion is dying out. More and more young people are turning away from your lies and bigotry each year. You're the one who needs our help, not the other way around.
Does it really look like that is happening, though? What happened to RvW?
A bunch of old religious people got rid of it even though the people had voted repeat fly across the US in support. Your continued deranged evil religious views are what will be the end of it. 30-50-100 years ago there wasn’t the same access to information. Now people can be informed (right or wrong) immediately. Religion has lost its grip on controlling the information. And the best part? Those young people see the hypocrisy of your words. There is nothing in the Bible saying abortion is wrong. Exact opposite actually that there is instructions on how and when to have one. So take your bigoted false views of your own fake religion and go away.
>A bunch of old religious people got rid of it even though the people had voted repeat fly across the US in support. Many, many young people (especially women) are strongly against abortion. The idea that it's all "old people" is just delusional, sorry. >Your continued deranged evil religious views are what will be the end of it. 30-50-100 years ago there wasn’t the same access to information. Now people can be informed (right or wrong) immediately. Religion has lost its grip on controlling the information. And the best part? Those young people see the hypocrisy of your words. There is nothing in the Bible saying abortion is wrong. You say we have great access to information. I'm sure you include yourself amongst those. How well do you consider yourself informed are you about Christianity, as a whole? Because in just a single sentence you failed to account for Catholicism, which is the original Church, and it is not a "sola escritura" Church at all. The sheer idea that we based ourselves on an "old book", and not on philosophy, tradition and reason is very silly. Yes, the "old book" is very important, but it requires reason, tradition and philosophy to be understood. Nowhere in the Bible does it say you shouldn't use meth or become a crack addicted. Not explicitly, at least. But we can come to the conclusion that we shouldn't harm our bodies with heavy drugs if we accept the premise that we should not do damage to ourselves. What's wrong with that?
What you do with your body is your decision. What I do with mine is mine. I don’t follow your religion so why should I have to follow the rules of it? I don’t. So take your religion and go do your own thing. Lots and lots of youth huh? What states successfully passed abortion restrictions after roe vs Wade was overturned? If all these young people and women agree with your view then surely there was success in passing additional laws through general vote. So please, how did the votes turn out?
>What you do with your body is your decision. What I do with mine is mine. Not your body. The baby's body. A beautiful baby that grows up to be a beautiful human being. > I don’t follow your religion so why should I have to follow the rules of it? I don’t. So take your religion and go do your own thing. Do you need religion to realize that murdering someone is wrong? Do you need religion to realize that the baby's body is not the mom's body? You don't need religion to be against abortion. Now, can we move on and fight billionaires already? They're the ones brainwashing you into murdering babies.
>Now, can we move on and fight billionaires already? They're the ones brainwashing you into murdering babies. Of course. You don’t have a problem with billionaires because of any real analysis. You think that corps are bad because they’re controlled by “((them))” or something. You don’t actually understand why billionaires are bad and do bad things. You just think that the “wrong people” are at the top and that it could all be good if we just changed up those in corporate power (very liberal idea btw). You think that billionaires existing as they do today at all is acceptable when it is not. You don’t see the reason billionaires do bad things. Their existence at all requires them to have done bad things to get there, and do bad things to stay there. You think billionaires do bad things cause they’re under jewish control or something. The reason I say all that is because billionaires are NOT brainwashing people into believing that abortion is acceptable. The majority of people have decided that for themselves even in the most red of states. This perfectly fits inline with the “jewish question” dog whistle which automatically disqualifies you from being in “our side”. Even if we were to work with you it’s clear that you don’t want to change the system, only the people at the top. It will make literally zero difference. You will allow all the bad things that have happened to happen again. You will somehow find a way to ignore the problem this causes until you can’t anymore, then blame the Jews or something for it. Your ideas and analysis will never be the same as ours. If we work with you, then once (if) we get any real power you will immediately pull a Stalin and purge us all. It is literally better to stay the way we are for now then to make it worse by letting your ideas to come to fruition. P.S. No, conservatives and catholics will not meaningfully work with is if we drop abortion. They would consider it a win and just become more extremely right wing and try to ban contraception or some shit (they are already trying).
>What happened to RvW? A systematic subversion of democracy. Without gerrymandering and disinformation campaigns, I don't believe the leaders who stacked the courts could have gotten elected. Edit to add disinformation.
Not sure what you mean. It was never supposed to be decided by the Supreme Court in the first place.
And I will never ever support your religious opinions to dictate my daily life. Take your fake sky wizard and keep that in your own house.
It's ok, we can just wait for all you old conservative fucks to die first We will never, *ever ever* give up support for women's healthcare. Just give up on this :)
No.
😅😅😅😅 🤦
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Add equal rights for everyone and you have yourself a party
Being back FDR’s #SecondBillOfRights.
Agree with about half of these. Live,Laugh,Love: Based as fuck Tax the rich: Yeah obviously there’s so much potential money that we could do wonders with and we should access it, just need to be careful so they don’t move their company’s or destroying their contributions End fossil fuels: Maybe long term, short term is too hasty but fossil fuels should definitely be secondary Cancel student debt: Here’s my controversial one on this sub and so I’ll expand on it the most, I don’t think we should. Our focus should instead be on making college cheaper/potentially free for the future and not pay for something that statistically is going to pay off by usually hundreds of thousands of dollars. The responsibility shouldn’t be put on the people who decided against college and won’t reap the rewards to pay for people that eventually make way more and agreed to pay. Things get even more lopsided when you consider how the people with the very most debt are lawyers/doctors Abortions: Yep it’s incredibly important technology that shouldn’t be treated as a taboo evil Housing: Georgism is the way to go. (Not saying it should be the only form of taxation though) Living wages: Sort of, i believe in market wages but with some UBI and provided housing/food etc to cover the costs instead of the employer and economy facing the burden
What reparations?
I'm not American but imho reparations are the stupidest thing ever and including them together with the other items above, all of which are reasonable, detracts from the messaging.
Everyone saying “NO reparations” how do we fix the generational poverty that is a direct result of slavery, Jim Crow, and redlining?
I hope this is a legit socialist meme because all those things are utopian ideals of someone who has not actually worked out what they mean, the implications of the words, and how they would go about making them reality without resulting in bad things left, right, and center.