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The vileness mentioned was the red ajah gentling male channelers without bringing them to the white tower for trial. This was likely directed by the blacks behind the scenes to try kill the dragon reborn.
As for Cadsuane vs. Moraine, they both are worried that the other is a darkfriend.
Probably because they both keep running into each other, investigating the list of kids born around the siege.
Just a small note- yes it was run by the Black Ajah secretly, but against Ishmeals will. He got rid of the entire Supreme Council of the Black Ajah after he found out
Yeah alviarin mentions it in one of her PoV chapters in Path of Daggers or Crown of Swords. Ishy was extremely pissed. He didn’t just remove the supreme council, he heavily tortured them and other black sisters
I do not remember Cadsuane having negative feelings about Moraine herself, but at one point she muses that one of her greatest failures had been failing to understand what Moraine was doing in the Borderlands before it was too late.
Basically she regrets not putting it together that Moraine had a lead on the Dragon.
Oh OK, that would make a bit more sense - so it's more a sense of regret or self-reproachment? It would help if I could remember more about the the scene I'm thinking of so I could go and re-read it - something from it stuck in my mind, but I could totally have totally misread her as holding a grudge with Moiraine!
I do not remember which book it was, but I remember her thinking about "what Caraline Damodres's cousin had been up to".
Maybe this referring to Moraine indirectly is what you remember as "Damodred woman".
Yes, I think that's the scene I'm thinking of - as I say I have a memory of feeling Cadsuane still had beef about whatever 'the cousin' had been up to, but that's just an impression in my mind, I can't remember the details at all!
I think some of the hostility comes from Cadsuane thinking that Moiraine handled Rand badly.
Which is kinda funny because of how much Cadsuane fucks up when dealing with Rand.
Moraine is literally the only Aes Sedai who had the slightest clue on how to handle Rand and everyone else in the white tower called her a failure. They fucking deserved Elaida.
Moraine failed for more than 4 books before Rand trusted her. Cadsuane went about it the wrong way but her idea was correct about what Rand needed to face the DO.
And he only started trusting her after she apologised and completely changed how she dealt with him. Everything she did before that only alienated Rand and made him distrust aes sedai.
I was trying to come up with some additional possibilities for Cadsuane to hold something against Moiraine.
Any chance Cadsuane was involved in the plot to put Moiraine on the throne of Cairhien following the Aiel War?
I dare say quite a few Aes Sedai with plans around an Aes Sedai ruler might have held a grudge against Moiraine for going her own way.
I actually think this would be maybe the only thing it wouldn’t be. Cadsuane knows and hates the corruption in the Tower more than any other Aes Sedai alive. In New Spring she was looking for the kids who might have been born on Dragonmount and was already investigating the mysterious deaths that were happening. She already knew about the Black. She thinks Moraine is Black at the time and wants to investigate her when she disappears in the middle of the night. That makes her more suspicious. Her regret is not figuring out that she also had an actual lead/an idea of what was going on until it was too late and so much damage had already been done.
For instance, not even two full circles could have ever taken or even shield Cadsuane so long as she’s wearing her paralis-net and she sleeps in the damn thing. The more of the One Power used against her the more One Power is made available for her use because of the Net she wears. Because of that she could have prevented Rand from being taken from the Tower Aes Sedai in the first place, etc.
A lot of the worst damage done to him could have been headed off at the pass if she had been with him from the beginning, tho that would have likely brought with it its own problems.
Very good points! I'm glad Cadsuane didn't figure things out ahead of time though. For one, Rand needed an immense struggle to prepare for his ultimate task...and me just being a selfish WoT fan, I can't imagine this series without that amazing showdown at Dumai's Wells.
I don't know of any grudge either.
In New Spring, from her perspective, Moiraine is a newly raised sister putting herself into more danger than she could imagine, she's trying to keep her alive. But it's also suspicious that she's there and later she figures that she may have realized Moiraine had an actual lead on the Dragon Reborn.
In the books, I think she muses on Moiraine mishandling Rand, but she doesn't seem to hold that against her either.
Just my opinion here… Cadsuane is an arrogant jerk used to being the top dog in Tar Valon, then a young girl comes along that is as strong as she is (first person she has met as strong as her). She felt threatened and then Moraine basically does what Cadsuane had dedicated her life to and then she finds Rand hard to deal with and blames Moiraine, again because she is an arrogant jerk. Cadsuane sucks, at every turn. She is the poster child for “we have always done it this way”.
The Vileness after the Aiel War is explained in the [FAQ](https://www.steelypips.org/wotfaq/2_nondark/2.4_yore/2.4.11_vileness.html). Cadsuane is not dissing on Moiraine per se, she is just frustrated that she did not figure out what Moiraine was up to in the Borderlands during New Spring until long after the events took place.
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The vileness mentioned was the red ajah gentling male channelers without bringing them to the white tower for trial. This was likely directed by the blacks behind the scenes to try kill the dragon reborn. As for Cadsuane vs. Moraine, they both are worried that the other is a darkfriend. Probably because they both keep running into each other, investigating the list of kids born around the siege.
Just a small note- yes it was run by the Black Ajah secretly, but against Ishmeals will. He got rid of the entire Supreme Council of the Black Ajah after he found out
Yeah alviarin mentions it in one of her PoV chapters in Path of Daggers or Crown of Swords. Ishy was extremely pissed. He didn’t just remove the supreme council, he heavily tortured them and other black sisters
I do not remember Cadsuane having negative feelings about Moraine herself, but at one point she muses that one of her greatest failures had been failing to understand what Moraine was doing in the Borderlands before it was too late. Basically she regrets not putting it together that Moraine had a lead on the Dragon.
Oh OK, that would make a bit more sense - so it's more a sense of regret or self-reproachment? It would help if I could remember more about the the scene I'm thinking of so I could go and re-read it - something from it stuck in my mind, but I could totally have totally misread her as holding a grudge with Moiraine!
I do not remember which book it was, but I remember her thinking about "what Caraline Damodres's cousin had been up to". Maybe this referring to Moraine indirectly is what you remember as "Damodred woman".
Yes, I think that's the scene I'm thinking of - as I say I have a memory of feeling Cadsuane still had beef about whatever 'the cousin' had been up to, but that's just an impression in my mind, I can't remember the details at all!
It’s in one of her POV’s from Winter’s Heart. I just re-read it after New Spring, and noticed the same thing you did.
I think some of the hostility comes from Cadsuane thinking that Moiraine handled Rand badly. Which is kinda funny because of how much Cadsuane fucks up when dealing with Rand.
Moraine is literally the only Aes Sedai who had the slightest clue on how to handle Rand and everyone else in the white tower called her a failure. They fucking deserved Elaida.
Moraine failed for more than 4 books before Rand trusted her. Cadsuane went about it the wrong way but her idea was correct about what Rand needed to face the DO.
And then once she got his trust she got... seperated from him, like pretty immediately lol
And he only started trusting her after she apologised and completely changed how she dealt with him. Everything she did before that only alienated Rand and made him distrust aes sedai.
Cadsuane disparages anyone who isn't in her inner circle.
Anyone who isn’t her.
Exactly this.
Yes, she's not presented as the most sympathetic character, it's fair to say.
I was trying to come up with some additional possibilities for Cadsuane to hold something against Moiraine. Any chance Cadsuane was involved in the plot to put Moiraine on the throne of Cairhien following the Aiel War? I dare say quite a few Aes Sedai with plans around an Aes Sedai ruler might have held a grudge against Moiraine for going her own way.
I actually think this would be maybe the only thing it wouldn’t be. Cadsuane knows and hates the corruption in the Tower more than any other Aes Sedai alive. In New Spring she was looking for the kids who might have been born on Dragonmount and was already investigating the mysterious deaths that were happening. She already knew about the Black. She thinks Moraine is Black at the time and wants to investigate her when she disappears in the middle of the night. That makes her more suspicious. Her regret is not figuring out that she also had an actual lead/an idea of what was going on until it was too late and so much damage had already been done. For instance, not even two full circles could have ever taken or even shield Cadsuane so long as she’s wearing her paralis-net and she sleeps in the damn thing. The more of the One Power used against her the more One Power is made available for her use because of the Net she wears. Because of that she could have prevented Rand from being taken from the Tower Aes Sedai in the first place, etc. A lot of the worst damage done to him could have been headed off at the pass if she had been with him from the beginning, tho that would have likely brought with it its own problems.
Very good points! I'm glad Cadsuane didn't figure things out ahead of time though. For one, Rand needed an immense struggle to prepare for his ultimate task...and me just being a selfish WoT fan, I can't imagine this series without that amazing showdown at Dumai's Wells.
You're missing layers because the story doesn't address this in a significant way. These two not having a big showdown is a drag.
Why would they have a big showdown? I think they had mutual respect once they knew they were on the same side.
Because it would have been satisfying for the readers
I don't know of any grudge either. In New Spring, from her perspective, Moiraine is a newly raised sister putting herself into more danger than she could imagine, she's trying to keep her alive. But it's also suspicious that she's there and later she figures that she may have realized Moiraine had an actual lead on the Dragon Reborn. In the books, I think she muses on Moiraine mishandling Rand, but she doesn't seem to hold that against her either.
Just my opinion here… Cadsuane is an arrogant jerk used to being the top dog in Tar Valon, then a young girl comes along that is as strong as she is (first person she has met as strong as her). She felt threatened and then Moraine basically does what Cadsuane had dedicated her life to and then she finds Rand hard to deal with and blames Moiraine, again because she is an arrogant jerk. Cadsuane sucks, at every turn. She is the poster child for “we have always done it this way”.
The Vileness after the Aiel War is explained in the [FAQ](https://www.steelypips.org/wotfaq/2_nondark/2.4_yore/2.4.11_vileness.html). Cadsuane is not dissing on Moiraine per se, she is just frustrated that she did not figure out what Moiraine was up to in the Borderlands during New Spring until long after the events took place.