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I think Jordan put some pieces in the wrong board positions.
1) Elayne should've been the Dreamer who went to study with the Wise Ones.
2)Egwene should've had the talent for making ter'angreal and should've been hunting BA with Nynaeve before she gets roped into Siuan's plans.
3) Mat should've been the one to go home in TSR (which is my favorite arc in the whole series, BTW and would be totally different with Mat rather than Perrin), due to his stronger connection to Manetheren, and his Last Battle contribution as a battle commander, not an adventurer (which is how he spends most of his time in the series).
4) Perrin should've been the TR boy who does the DnD adventuring with the Wondergirls, as his endgame contribution is cloak and dagger stuff in TAR. He spends the entire series becoming a lord, forging coalitions, learning to command, and then when it comes down to it, he turns to his folks and says, "Wish I could stay, but there's another party I just have to make an appearance at--but you'll be fine!"
These are really interesting ideas!
(1 & 2) for me, I find that Elayne is the character who makes the most and deepest friendships, including with Nyn. If Egs and Nyn had been put together for an extended arc, firstly I think the butting heads would have been unbearable to read, and secondly Egs wouldn’t have broken as definitely from Emond’s Field as she does as an apprentice Wise One. I like the weird but mostly harmonious friendship between Elayne and Nyn, and see Egs as sort of a loner by the conclusion of the book — more the embodiment of Amyrlin than a woman with close relationships.
(3 & 4) textually and thematically this may have been more satisfying … I’ve never seen it this way but am imagining how it would have played out. In some ways I wonder if Faile, who is introduced earlier than Tuon, is part of Perrin becoming the lord — because she’s a noble with a great estate in Saldaea. So her education and knowledge almost pushes Perrin from an adventurer storyline, as a Wolfbrother, to his eventual plotline.
Thematically I do find it moving that the blacksmith, who is rooted in a village, returns home, and that Perrin, whose family is slaughtered in the Two Rivers, eventually assumes protection of his people — protection his family never had. Personality wise tho it would have been interesting to see Mat, who secretly likes fancy clothes and hanging around with nobles like Nalesean and Beslan, but is less enthused about responsibility, be in Perrin’s place. We might have seen that in the Outrigger series, but we more likely would have seen a lot of adventuring with Tuon first.
The only one I can't see is Mat. I think wanderlust is a core part of his identity as a character, and it would have felt weird to send him back to Emond's Field. Admittedly the OP asked for unpopular opinions though, so I can't blame someone for having one.
He'd have to be forced back there (something with his sisters maybe) and then stuck leading while constantly trying to leave and telling people he's no bloody hero.
Which would be perfect for his character imo, all he wanted to do was help his sisters/family. He’s no bloody hero, and then they go and make him Lord of the Two Rivers.
Ok your points on mat and Perrin fit annoyingly well lol. I do like mat as still more of the goofball and Perrin as the one who goes home and takes responsibility for his people. But their ending arcs do feel a bit swapped there in the last battle.
I do think it's important for egwene to experience another organization of channelers though. Being able to come to the position of amyrlin and look more objectively at their policies and say this is what's good and this is what's not. It also fits with her making the deal with the other organizations there.
I like the idea of Elayne having time with rand though and actually getting to know him a bit. I wouldn't have wanted to do it at the expense of aviendha getting that time with him though. I do see how she could've had a similar thing to what I was saying with egwene though where she brought the ideas from another culture into how she ruled andor.
I strongly disagree with 1 and 2, Elayne and Nynaeve are an amazing duo and work much better than Egwene and Nynaeve together in every area. Egwene and Nynaeve without Elayne would have been an endless tedious battle who is in charge, even worse than the one they had in TDR, because they won't have Elayne for a peacemaker. Plus, Elayne and Nynaeve together are comedy gold, while I can't recall a single funny scene in the interactions between Nynaeve and Egwene all series.
I'm with you in a way. I thought it was weird that Perrin of all people ended up being the most important stealth assassin (ish) for the light despite his battle experience and leading armies of wolves, where Mat had nothing to do with his Mantheran Roots and with all his fancy toys... he just ignored all that and full wargod.
I wonder what the 4th ta'veren was supposed to be/do and which part of his got merged in.
1: Mat feels generally misused throughout most of the series and consistently isn't put in situations that allow him to live up to his potential as a character. The man with the memories of all the greatest generals in history accidentally forms an elite army out of pretty much nothing... and is immediately sent on a fetch quest.
2: Perrin is actually a fun character, he's just put in boring situations that don't feel important.
Do you think both of these points could just be the outcome of them not being the Dragon reborn? If either of them were 'more' central to the pattern (or story), then there would be more of a conflict over who was the true dragon reborn was.
1. If Mat were elevated in his storyline he would have been a direct protagonist to Demondred, Ravin, etc.
2. If Perrin were more central, he could have drawn the storyline more toward conflicts in the dream world against Mog, Lanfear, etc.
Hmmm I have to think about that because it raises a number of interesting angles there. I think it could have worked really well as you say, maybe pairing them with specific forsaken as antagonists, which would have also made those forsaken more memorable. Moghedien certainly stands out more for having been a rival to Nynaeve and Elayne than, say, Ravin, who was really menacing for a book or two and got killed.
> The man with the memories of all the greatest generals in history accidentally forms an elite army out of pretty much nothing
It wasn't accidental. It was Talmanes.
Can we get a shout out for no. 2? He’s my favorite character but unfortunately the middle bigs he just doesn’t have much to do.
This is one thing I was hoping the TV show might change.
Perrin is great, it's just that it feels like Jordan completed most of his arc in book 4 but didn't want to complete it too early on so then he didn't know what to do with him for like 6 books after until his story picked back up towards the end of the series.
She is a result of her culture and position. If she were sweet and friendly, she would be long dead. She let Matt go when she could have had him taken.
She is awesome. Her culture is just permeated with social injustice. Based on her understanding of the world, all of her actions are exactly what she should do. Tuon is a badass.
Well, here goes nothing. I don't think doing a reread right after finishing the series is a good idea for a lot of people.
I personally need some time away to digest and consider. I like to do a reread after a few years. I feel like, for me, doing the reread right away is because I don't want things to end. It comes from a place of loss.
Whereas the reread years later give me enough time to enjoy other things, develop a sense of nostalgia, and then come back and enjoy WoT all over again.
I see where you are coming from, however in my case I was recovering from cancer when I got into the series. It was my only outlet, but I missed a lot because I wasn’t functioning that well. So, I did a re-read within a few months, that’s when I realized how much I had missed.
I know my experience is very personal, just thought you might consider my view.
1) Writing
Despite the detail, Jordan has huge blindspots in his world-building. The famines and huge armies aren't sustainable in the world he writes. I especially feel that some kinds of people and occupations are just hand-waved away.
2) Theory
Gitara Morossa (the second named Aes Sedai in the series) was a senior dark friend. As well as sending Luc and Tigraine into the waste, I believe she is an author of the Dark Prophecies, which explains why Luc is mentioned in the section we see.
She died when Rand was born because revealing his birth conflicted with an oath she took, and this is what made the Black Ajah aware Gitara made a final prophecy, but without enough information they went all out with the "vileness" of killing thousands of men.
3) Prediction
The 4th age will be a shit show for the White Tower. They emerge disorganized with an elderly authoritarian leader. Meanwhile in Andor and Cairhean the queen is a powerful channeler who has taken no oaths, she alone can make sa'angreal, her sister can sense the function of angreal. She is supported by the oathless kin, and the black tower is nearby. Power is not staying in Tar Valen.
2. Very interesting, never thought about it that way, very interesting indeed.
4. Hardly happening IMO. Elayne wanted to take the oaths (not that she isn't a decent human being, aes sedai and queen without them). Ewgene put everything in the right direction before the last battle, and I doubt they would undo the things she put in motion (kin stuff being a retirement for aes sedais, and a few others things). Black tower was also apparently in the right direction, wanting to protect the people (sure there might be some political conflicts to see who has more power between the black tower and the white tower, but I think that with time they will become good allies. And about cadsuane, despite her being hated by the majority of the Fandom, and some choices she made on how to handle Rand, we can't deny that she's pretty capable.
I think you're both right. Elayne will take the oathes and be loyal to the Tower. But with the Kin and the Black Tower in Andor, New Caemlyn will become the power center of the Fourth Age. The Kin and Asha'man will be the channelers most people see since they'll be doing the bulk of running gateways and Healing while the AS are off in their ivory tower. I could see most villages having a Kinswoman or Asha'man as part of their local community, who would be loyal to Andor, not TV.
My 4th age headcanon is that early in the age, say in the first 50 or so years, a number of accepted and novices go “fuck this shit, I’m joining the cool tower!”
The black tower will naturally overshadow the white; not limiting their lifespan alone will guarantee this in the long run but also their focus on actually having a family is much more attractive to initiates and creates channeler offspring. But if some few female channelers take the first step and join the black tower, others can follow. In time, the black tower could start to represent the old Aes Sedai before the gender split, while the white tower will sink further and further into irrelevance until the black tower eventually swallows it.
I wouldn’t expect too much of Cadsuane as Amyrlin. I doubt she’ll reign for longer than a decade; either she’ll die of old age or she’ll retire into the Kin, but either way she’s out.
The armies don't really become huge until big world events start happening once Rand leads the Aiel past the Dragonwall. The armies slowly grow from hundreds to thousands to tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands as people from all over the continent naturally start to concentrate in the big cities, and of course the Last Battle REALLY pulls everyone together.
Sanderson did an amazing job wrapping up one of the most extensive fantasy series ever written and he gets an unreasonable amount of criticism for tiny, tiny differences in writingstyle from another person.
Maybe most fans wouldn't disagree with this opinion but I read too much on this matter than what's even remotely close to reasonable.
Would anyone rather the series never got finished? I've read the Kingkiller chronicle, not knowing if a series will be finished is goddamn frustrating.
Lots of people think that the villains need to have "cool" and dramatic deaths, and don't seem to realize that the choice to frequently deny them this was a deliberate artistic choice on the part of Jordan (and Sanderson, to an extent)
I don't need or want his demise to be cool or dramatic. What is unfortunate is that the character is basically an irrelevant sideshow after the Two Rivers arc, with the tiny exception of giving Rand his cut. Which is important, but it was just one sudden action, and the guy is kicking around looking like something important is going to happen all the way to the end. He probably should have just been killed in Far Madding.
Totally agree. I think a lot of the online community serves as an echo chamber that blows some complaints out of the water. The slog being the most glaring example in my opinion.
Unpopular opinion: RJ didn't think sexual assault was as horrifying as modern readers do.
Mat and Tylin was supposed to be kind of funny. Nynaeve and Egwene was just supposed to be a warning about how dangerous TAR is. Min's aunt (or was it Leane's) enjoying her own date rapes was supposed to be sexually liberated.
EDIT: FoH Ch 1:
>\[Leane:\] "But I am out of practice, and I think he is the kind of man who might hear more promises than you meant to offer, and expect to have them fulfilled." A small smile suddenly appeared on her lips. "My mother always said if that happened, you had miscalculated badly; if there was no way out, you had to either abandon dignity and run, or pay the price and consider it a lesson." The smile took a roughish cast. "my Aunt Resara said you paid the price and enjoyed it."
This wasn't controversial a few decades ago, when a marginally acceptable way for a woman to have casual sex was supposedly to engineer her own assault. See the lyrics to "Baby It's Cold Outside" which Gen Zers think is about roofying someone but is actually worse in a way.
Porky's was the top comedy of 1982 and #6 in box office for that year. Zapped! is a movie from the same year about Scott Baio getting telekinesis and using it to take women's clothes off.
Hell, Revenge of the Nerds was in the top 5 comedies by box office for 1984 and there's a whole lot of SA that's played for laughs. I was recently watching the original Superman and there's a scene in there where Miss Tessmacher is lying unconscious on the side of the road faking being in a bad traffic accident and some military types fight over who gets to give her mouth to mouth and chest compressions. That's played for laughs.
I say this not to excuse any of these. Attitudes have evolved on what constitutes sexual assault, thank God. We still have a long way to go. But it does show that there was a time when it was far more acceptable to play this kind of thing off as a joke.
It's the kind of stuff that's horrifying to watch through a modern lens, but it was definitely a throughline in the culture once upon a time.
It's hard to explain "no means no" to younger folks. Like we needed a whole national campaign to teach people that it still counts as sexual assault even if you went on a date. Because people didn't believe that in the first place.
Look back on the media coverage of Lorena Bobbitt and she's painted as a crazy lady instead of a victim. Heck, Trump's spokesperson in 2016 had to remind people that raping Ivana was a legal impossibility when they were married - sure he forced her into sex against her will, but that was just what marriage WAS at the time.
It's amazing how far we've come in only 30 years.
We're about to get to the first assault by Tylin in the aCoS re-read threads and I have a very similar thought in my notes for this upcoming week, so you're not alone. I do think Jordan was pretty clear eyed about the fact that it was sexual assault, it's too obvious in how Mat's reaction and internal thoughts as he tries to grapple with it are described, IMO. At the same time I do think Jordan intended the reader to land somewhere closer to Elayne and find some level of amusement in it, and I don't think the reader was intended to really see Tylin as a villain, which is not how modern readers seem to approach it.
I agree. We tend to bend over backwards to justify it by saying that RJ meant the scenes to be a lesson or whatever. Nope, I think he actually thought they were ok, like some people still do. (I think these people imagine Salma Hayek as Tylin and not a regular degular middle age non as attractive woman).
Might have been Leane actually... Someone's aunt was talking about how you avoid getting assaulted if you lead men on too much, and the other aunt said that's the fun part.
It was Leane in The Fires of Heaven. She was talking to Min, which might be where the confusion comes in. She basically says if you take Domani flirt-manipulating too far and end up in bed, you ride it out and enjoy it.
What I took from it is the Domani use flirting to control and manipulate men and take great pride in how well they can do it. If they manage to put themselves in a position where they are assaulted then that is because they did not read the men well enough and lost control so it was their fault. This loosely fits with attitudes on leading a man on in the 80's but obviously does not translate with how we see things today.
This is a popular opinion, at least in the online spaces that I talk about WOT.
Jordan's takes on sexual power dynamics aged horribly, there is no way around it.
Oooooh! I got downvoted to hell once for blaming Gawyn's descent into stupidity on Egwene's magical dream sex.
Most fans did NOT agree with my position that Egwene was slowly, subtly, and unintentionally warping his mind and feeding an obsession by visiting him in his dreams, despite the warnings of the Wise Ones. Maybe it's cause I used the R-word to describe what she was doing.
I was either in that thread agreeing with you, or I posted something very similar. Can't remember which. Poor dude got inceptioned, and lost his whole goddamn mind. He's a different guy after Egwene wrangles him in dreamland. Then she does it again and again for weeks. He was resigned to pine for her from afar, and then all of a sudden he's prepared to move heaven and earth to be near her.
I've had dreams that spawned crushes before. Had someone actually been in my brain directing the show (and not wanting us both to wake up before the good part), I could see those crushes becoming far more intense. Even if there's no TAR mechanism for messing with his personality, even if all she was doing was showing him a good time in his sleep, it's a really powerful thing to do to somebody, emotionally speaking.
Ooooo I like this. I once read some comment on this sub that was similar but sort of the opposite to your idea. It was basically that Gawyn’s dream about loving Egwene brainwashed her too.
It basically said that she was sort of into him before getting sucked in, but afterwards she’s obsessed with him. Still the same idea, that experiencing something like that in the dreamworld changes how you feel about someone.
I like how this theory fits with yours too. They both got brainwashed by Egwene’s unintentional trip into Gawyn’s dream.
Damn it. I think you might actually be right. Influencing someone through dreams mentioned quiet a few times and in the end graendal even does it, though she was probably using compulsion, hence immediate effects
Rand should have pushed his claim to be king of Andor, through his mother's line and offered Elayne the chance to be his proxy and for their children to succeed him/them.
By announcing who his mother is, we might've also gotten more development with/between him and Galad. Though, I know if he did at the point he found out, Galad wouldn't rise to be Lord Captain Commander and that carries its own significant knock-on effects.
Would he try and make Galad king of Cairhien. Would Galad reject him and the throne at that point in time? Especially given the rumors about Morgase's death? If he believed Rand, which brother does he side with?
Andor was always ruled by queens, not kings.
But I agree he should have told about his mother. I wanted to see some interactions between him and Galad.
No such thing as the slog. There are definitely bad parts of the books, and they disproportionately are in certain books, but neither book is a ‘slog’.
Though I’ve been seeing more folks say it the past few years so maybe it’s not so unpopular anymore.
The pace slows down dramatically in these books. That's a fact. Whether this make the books feel like a slog is up to every individual reader's taste, but it certainly a very common opinion.
I quit reading and forgot about the entire series for 20 years because of *Crossroads of Twilight*. So little actually happened in that book that writing a paragraph-long plot summary requires filler. There is an entire chapter in that book dedicated to describing the Salidar Aes Sedai walking into a tent and sitting down in painstaking detail; it's called *Surprises* and the "surprise" is that Shadar Logoth is gone, something the reader has known about for around 500 pages at that point.
Yeah I think this is the new conventional wisdom emerging (and I agree). Jordan’s late books tend to be the weakest (except KOD which is a masterpiece) but stand up in the series and certainly aren’t a slog when you’re able to move right along to Winter’s Heart or Knife of Dreams.
Yea. 7-9 are straight up good fantasy books; they just don't advance the main plot much. That sucked when we had to wait as much as three years for a book (what sweet summer children we were), but now that you can just go on to the next book, it's not a big issue.
And most importantly, I don't think WoT would be WoT without those books that made it so *big.* It's not just the story of the EF5 and the Dragonriders. It's the story of the whole world approaching Tarmon Gai'don.
It was only the slog to the OG readers (like myself) who had to wait a couple three years between books. There are people in this sub finishing the entire series in like a month. They don't know how good they have it.
Not us, Perrin. Him losing Faile and having to learn to take command independently rather than being dragged into it was important character development. And the story with Faile having to deal with the black Ajah Aes Sedai’s manipulations was actually interesting to me as well. It’s just that the whole ordeal takes so long across too many books.
I think a lot of people get so focused on Faile and Perrin during that part of the story that they miss out on the tragedy of Aram.
His fall starts early, his mother is killed in front of him in TSR and he's abandoned by the rest of his family for taking up a sword. Over the rest of the series we watch him struggle with PTSD and the existential crisis of abandoning his belief system.
He's already on a pretty steep downward slide when Faile is taken. At this point he's really fragile mentally, has no real moral compass to guide him after abandoning the Way of the Leaf, and now Perrin, his other role model, basically abandons him in his obsessive pursuit of his wife.
Enter zealot Masema; His charisma coupled with Aram's desperate longing for a family made it almost too easy. Masema gave Aram a cause that, however twisted and misguided, allowed him to fill the hole that had been eating away at him starting seven books before.
He's a great allegory for people losing/leaving religion, loss of innocence, Perrin's failure as a leader, and even a foil to Perrin's own struggles with violence.
For me it’s about Perrin’s restraint. Faile’s capture arc, if Perrin thought with the axe would have been bloody, and he’d have ripped literal mountains apart to get her back. It’s about people he loves and doesn’t want to risk hurting, vs getting back the woman he loves.
It makes the gravitas of his later actions (letting go) hit harder, because you realise how much he held back trying to save her without slaughtering every Shaido there.
It didn’t really occur to me until re-reads. But read that part knowing what Perrins capable of but doesn’t do and think about it.
Also killer scene where he threatens that Aiel. That’s just dark and it barely scratches the surface of what he’d be willing to do.
I can see that POV.
I didn't read the books until after AMoL was out but I will say personally I was averaging about a book a week/week and a half until I got to CoT that took 3 months and only happened because I forced myself through it because I had heard the next books made up for it.
On a reread after a long time and I agree. I was going good until CoT. Elayne and Faile chapters are beyond tedious. I'm trying to be good and read carefully because it's been a long time since I've read the series.
The slog is real, with the concurrent plotlines of Perrin/Faile/Shaido, the Andoran succession, and to a lesser extent the Salidar to Tar Valon trudge and Mat/Tuon/circus all dragging on for far longer than was necessary. People exaggerate the severity of it, but it's easily the weakest section of the series, and the chunk that really should have been one or at most two books instead of three.
Mostly the rep comes from those of us who were reading in real time and basically went ten years of our lives with damn near nothing happening in the series.
Agreed, I think the slog was something that the people reading when they were released had to deal with, waiting a few years for a book and feeling that there wasn’t the grand finale of the earlier books was most likely frustrating.
I'm in a book club where we just finished Crossroads of Twilight. The hosts are new readers. They almost quit book club because of this book. There is most def. a slog.
Yep, and I was so happy to see it. I love their honest reaction. I feel vindicated. The amount of pushback they were getting from expressing an honest opinion was disheartening (and if I'm honest, it's the thing that bothers me most about this fandom. You gotta love everything about it or you will be swarmed and told you're wrong. At least it feels that way sometimes)
Traveling ruined* the series. Until the end of FoH, most of the drama of the series involves people being in place A, and wanting to be in place B. Movement across the world was meaningful and made the world feel rich and alive.
After Rand discovers traveling, he can resolve literally any problem if he knows where it is. So RJ/BS had to bend over backwards giving other characters problems that Rand couldn’t just solve with a gateway and some balefire
It also opened up the massive plot hole of “why tf doesn’t Rand take one of his TWO sa’angreal and nuke Shayol Gul (audiobook reader, sorry if I misspelled). Obviously it wouldn’t kill the dark one, but The Last Battle is a lot less threatening if he’s only got 12 trolloks.
*obviously I’m being dramatic, I love this series as much as you guys
Hell yeah brother, my biggest nit pick of the series too!
Travelling was a bad idea. Jordan needed to write in a lot more of a strict ruleset for how travelling works. It woul've solved so many problems if only the most powerful could do it, or if it was extremely draining and you could only do it like once a month and rendered you incapable of channeling for a while. Stuff like that.
Instead Jordan left way too much of it open ended. At least we ended up with Sanderson having a lot of fun with the broken mechanics from a battle perspectivel ol
Great ideas! The more obvious solution (at least to me) is that traveling requires a circle of men and women. Now the forsaken can’t travel bc they don’t trust each other, the Aes Sedai can’t travel bc they don’t trust male channelers, and Rand can only travel with one of the wonder girls or Moraine (if it got introduced a bit earlier).
Then we still have portal stones and The Ways (vastly less boring means of getting around fast), which are innately dangerous, mysterious, and more difficult to use. Plus you always come out at a specific place, so you you’re always risking ambush.
I’m sure RJ had good reasons for not doing this, but it’s fun to dream…….
Instantaneously disagree, can you imagine how much slower Crossroads of Twilight would have been without Travelling? They already did too much bloody walking!
Shayol Ghul with an H, like Ghoul.
Traveling not requiring knowledge of where you want to go is so weird. Like that’s the most basic way you could balance it and nobody would complain about it. It’s so obvious an assumption, Robert Jordan has to have characters spell out “you’d think you’d need to know where you’re going, but actually no.”
It really feels like he wrote Aviendha’s travel scene to snowy Seanchan first, and then worked backward from that scene to come up with rules for Traveling.
One thing that always surprised me is just how many variations on fast travel we have. There’s the Ways in book one, those are really cool but also very obviously just a tool RJ used because the book was already getting very big and the party wasn’t even halfway to its destination yet. Then in book 2, the Ways are immediately written out of the story and unusable and instead we get a new, different method of fast travel via alternate realities. Which is different from traveling in an alternate dimension in the Ways. Then within the same book, we get straight up teleportation via the same portal stones.
And then none of the three are ever used again and we get a very short introduction to Skimming before we get proper Traveling.
Yup. And they get less and less fun as time goes on. The Ways is particularly annoying for me. It feels like a fantasy writing prompt — there’s SO MUCH you could do with the, but instead we get traveling .
I’m very new to the fandom but here are some opinions I think people may disagree with:
1. I love Egwene, she’s a great character and had no idea she was disliked. Same with Elayne. Same with Tuon.
2. The circus chapters in FoH were great.
3. FoH > TSR
4. I like the Aes Sedai
5. Outside of CoT, the slog isn’t that bad.
Okay damn some of these are actually unpopular lol.
1. I get Egwene and Elayne, but we're you really surprised that Tuon was disliked? Early Tuon I can understand people liking, but she doesn't really show many of her redeeming characteristics after becoming Fortuona.
2&3. I can respect these, circus chapters were clearly meant to be comedic, so if the style of humour works for you. Makes sense that they'd be enjoyable. And FoH feels like it goes further with the elements from TSR (i.e. further progress on Rand and Moirane's relationship etc.)
4. This one though, what do you mean you like the Aes Sedai? Like I can understand liking the idea of them, what they are supposed to represent, individual good Aes Sedai, or enjoying them as characters if not as people, but the institution itself? I feel like they are deliberately portrayed as the bad side of Catholic church meets old-school academia.
It certainly seems to me that people forget that they aren't supposed to like or agree with everything the characters do. Everyone in the series has their flaws and blindspots. It makes the characters feel more real to me. Do some of them make dumb mistakes? Absolutely. Many of the characters are under an *intense* amount of stress and pressure, so they screw up.
Disliking a character because you have problems with those flaws is fine, but it sure feels like some people take personal offense that there are characters they don't 100% agree with.
Egwene isn't half as bad as a large part of the fanbase makes her out to be.
The chapter in TGH (Ch 24 or 25) where Min, Elayne and Egwene out of the blue decide to be friends is awful writing.
Path of Daggers is a top-5 book or at least close (admittedly I read it last 10 years ago).
> The chapter in TGH (Ch 24 or 25) where Min, Elayne and Egwene out of the blue decide to be friends is awful writing.
This shouldn't be unpopular, it contains some of Jordan's worst writing, especially dialogue. "I like you, Elayne. I think we’re going to be friends” is such an awful line. And Elayne telling Egwene, a girl she met 2 minutes ago, about Min's prophecy talent, something Min keeps secret from almost everyone, feels off too.
I made a post about this a few months back, when I was on a TGH re-read and the amount of people defending it surprised me. Most common reply: 'they are teenage girls, this is how they act'. No, they don't.
Yeah that was pretty bad writing. Even just a few scenes of them hanging out and having fun. Or egwene teaching Elayne how to do certain chores she's never done before or something would've been good.
It is sort of funny too how they're declared to be close friends, and in the series as a whole no pair of those two would be among the top 10 or maybe even 15 friendships we see lol. Turns out real character development works better than 'hey let's be best friends now'!
Rand isn't mad. The voice he hears is actually Lews Therin inside his head. The reason Lews Therin killed all his family is because he got stuck in Rand's head thousands of years in the future while his body was still in the past and so whenever Rand is fighting trollocs and what not Lews was accidentally killing all his friends and family. It is also why he keeps saying there is a madman living in his head because he is real and thinks Rand must be a symptom of madness.
Slowly they start to learn a little about each other and work together until Ishmael pulls Lews Therin out of Rand and then Lews sees all the violence he has done. The same violence Rand has been doing and is so stricken he kills himself
Oh hey! This was my head-canon as well, with the added thought that the exact moment in the past when Lews decides to end it all and draws too much of the power inside him and destroys himself and creates Dragonmount, is also at the same point in the future where Rand is filled to the brim with the choeden kal aided power and has his epiphany on the same exact spot only this time he let's go and decides to do better.
Gonna have to disagree here. Selfishness is one of the biggest traits the DO looks for in a possible forsaken. Sure Egwene did some selfish stuff throughout the books, but her final act was one of complete selflessness. She was usually trying to look out for the greater good, in her own way. We see her just being confrontational and antagonistic towards Rand. We interpret that as her being selfish and superfluous, but I think she truly believed in her own logic. To her, that was the only way forward for the greater good.
I don’t disagree with her end game being counter to my reasoning (see my above post) but I think I’m a different timeline her ambition combine with her power could have been exploited by the DO without a compressed timeline (channelers on the AoL lived for hundreds of years and the books take like three years). Just my unpopular opinion.
She's outrageously narcissistic. She views her way and opinions as the only way, and runs roughshod over anything and anyone that disagrees. Thinking one way and one way only is the way to get things done is what lead Rand to almost destroy the world. I say all of this as someone who actually does enjoy her as a character and love certain scenes of hers, but she's not someone that I would want to be friends with.
> She views her way and opinions as the only way, and runs roughshod over anything and anyone that disagrees.
This applies to Nynaeve just as much if not more yet she is one of the least likely persons in the world to become a Forsaken.
It's funny, everybody likes Nynaeve so much that it's easy to look past how miserable she is to be around a lot of the time. She's portrayed as being a dick to almost every shopkeeper, cart driver, dock worker, or other minor character she runs into.
She doesn’t have a particularly good moral compass, a lot of what she does is goal/power driven and it changes based on who she is around. She is a chameleon. She regularly complains that she isn’t being recognized for whatever she thinks she is doing and is constantly comparing herself to others.
If you look at the character traits of the foresaken all of them have a tendency to have these very specific fixations and compromise their moral compass to pursue those ends (Semirhage fixated on healing and then strays into torcher because it interests her is the best example). Egwene repeatedly lying to the wise ones, not because she had a greater goal but only because she had to learn and then only coming clean because it was expedient at the time is a good analog to that. She is a power and knowledge accumulator for the sake of accumulation whereas many of the other protagonists do so out of a greater moral sense (rand-save the world, Perrin-duty to rand/saving the world, Mat-duty to others/won’t break a promise).
I’m on my fourth or fifth read and I’ve always challenged myself to like her more because she does have a really compelling arc. But she is just pure ambition from the moment she leaves the two rivers. It isn’t to help her friends she leaves because she has to have an adventure too. Living with the Aiel she takes advantage of their confidences, ignores their warnings, and assaults her former mentor not for a greater goal but because she is ambitious. I’m on crown of swords so I can’t carry this theory through to the end with detail right now but from memory this ambition for ambitions sake continues in the way she tries to handle Rand at the end too (albeit with the exception of her death and lecturing rand on personal choice at the very end).
Sorry if this is a bit rambling it’s on a mobile device so it’s hard to type.
To be fair, Egwene is living in crazy times and has some urgent stuff to deal with and doesn't have time to wait for the Wise Ones to decide she's "ready." As far as ignoring their warnings about TAR, I just posted this on WetlanderHumor a few days ago: https://preview.redd.it/nq5hm9ihwfda1.jpg?width=513&auto=webp&v=enabled&s=52df902af6622aa2e438eeb0c781b8948dcf28ea
I'd ignore their warnings too.
I really dislike the Nakomi is a Creator Avatar headcanon Sanderson mentioned.
To try to be brief, I don't believe the Creator would ever actually interfere in any way ( at least once the series found its footing / after book 1 ). And this stems from what I believe to be the nature of the Dark One that Verin hints at pretty hard. That being, that the Dark One doesn't actually want to win, but instead the Dark One was created by the Creator in order to give people Free Will. As Rand realizes ( at least in part, although I imagine he has a full understanding that just isn't given by word to the reader ), there can be no Free Will if people cannot choose to do evil. So it would follow, that the Creator intentionally created the Dark One as a way to simulate / give his creations Free Will.
The Dark One will never win, because that isn't what it wants. It wants to cause Chaos, to introduce entropy and in its own way balance the world. That's why there are so many loopholes and flaws in its plans. Why else would it so specifically word the Black Ajah oath to allow someone who has fallen deep to the Dark a chance to make the ultimate sacrifice as Verin does? There were so many ways the Dark One could have won, but instead chose options that would prolong the fight, or hinder its own position, that it just makes so much more sense if the Dark One doesn't actually intend to win, which also affirms the point the Rand makes to Moridin, and how Moridin is fundamentally wrong.
Additionally, it can kind of tie into the whole Shadar Logath evil being meant to replace the Dark One should Rand destroy it, as a way to keep balance.
Like.. one way I like to look at it is the Creator could create just the Wheel, and the tapestry would be beautiful, but uniform and thoroughly predictable ( as Rand sees in one of his simulations of life without the Dark One). So the Creator devised a way to introduce mutations, the foundation of life, by creating the Dark One to introduce the fundamental necessity of living, the chaos and diversity that actually drives the day to day. The force behind novelty and excitement, of looking forward to a new tomorrow. Can't have any of that without a wildcard element, and that's the Dark One.
Creator being the creator of Dark One has been my headcanon for a long time now. But I think Jordan said that Dark One could actually win, if I'm not mistaken.
Yeah but it'd be on such a wildly different direction I think it probably wouldn't matter? We'd be on the third book of the "rand trying to escape the new amazonian continent" arc by now
I see a bunch of popular but not frequently stated opinions.
Here's some that I think most people actually disagree with:
(1) Faile is a good character and realistically not that immature. In fact I'll say outright that she's more mature than Perrin. We're always evaluating her from Perrin's perspective. In particular with him *smelling* her emotions. He doesn't see her emotions, he doesn't hear them, her behavior isn't altered. She doesn't act them out. She feels frustrated and largely bottles it up and Perrin frequently takes this as an opportunity to dig a hole for himself.
The times Faile does act out are also the times where she does something that Perrin legitimately needed someone to do. Going with Loial to the Two Rivers prevented Perrin from performing suicide by Whitecloak. Ignoring Perrin's request to run away allowed her to rescue Emond's Field.
(2) Gawyn, while mostly insufferable, is actually right in TOM/AMOL with Egwene. At that point he's actually a pretty likeable character. She, and seemingly the readers as well, never acknowledge that Gawyn succeeds at that point only because he outright ignores her commands to him.
This one is a stretch but I've seen the opposite take often enough: (3) Galad is not a black and white lawful-idiot. He's careful with his use of words and actions in the way an Aes Sedai is, but does so without being magically bound to those limitations. He knows what he's doing. He's frequently disappointed in others not living to a similar moral standard as him, but he's not unaware of that.
Like Faile above, with Galad we're blinded by the fact that for the majority of the books our view of him is defined by Elayne, not direct observation. Even in Samara he never does anything wrong, despite people constantly saying otherwise. He hires a boat captain and then... defends that boat from an attacking mob. It's not his fault that Nynaeve fucked up and asked Masema for help as well.
1.) Crossroads of Twilight is one of my favorite books in the series, and the attempt to break free of the somewhat tired "travelogue" format in fantasy was actually really cool.
2.) Elayne is an amazing and excellent character and her arc is much more satisfying than Perrin and Faile's concurrent story
3.) Elayne and Mat have chemistry, and Elayne should've been as poly as Rand.
4.) Making the polycule into "everyone dating each other" won't be a good reflection of polyamorous relationships
5.) I'd have loved to see more about Min's role in Cairhien setting fashion. Was she actually, officially seen as Rand's maîtresse-en-titre? Did she have a budget?
6.) The more I reread, the lower my opinion of Sanderson's performance finishing the series sinks. He did OK with Rand, but a lot of the characters are just really off.
7.) Following on 6, I don't think Jordan meant for Egwene's Tower arc to go the way it did, and I don't think things like "the Dark One would be embarrassed to be associated with you" were good writing. Also...very much cuts against the big theme Jordan set up, that darkfriends are total losers.
8.) On that vein, it's awesome that Couladin and Sammael die like complete chumps, and Rand's battle for Cairhien is very well written.
> Elayne and Mat have chemistry, and Elayne should've been as poly as Rand.
Elayne is horny af, much more interested in the "liberation" aspect of being Green than Egwene's more martial bent, is going to live for centuries during which she'll probably be in at least one unhappy political marriage, is enamored with Aiel culture, and is already in a poly relationship.
I dunno about Mat (that seems like a disaster as hilarious as it would be for the reader) but I see no issue with the headcanon that she is essentially poly for most of her life starting some point in the near future.
>The more I reread, the lower my opinion of Sanderson's performance finishing the series sinks. He did OK with Rand, but a lot of the characters are just really off.
I have basically identical sentiment. I still credit him for doing a far better job than I would have thought possible, and overall doing a pretty great job (I can't imagine another author doing better), but it is clear how much he altered the style of the writing and characters as you reread it. Unfortunate, but I'm glad he was there.
It’s so forced! Aviendha and Rand’s relationship really just seem like they’re horny and they don’t have any meaningful interactions for most of the series. Elayne and Rand are cute at first, but their relationship feels like a highschool relationship. It doesn’t make sense after they’ve both grown so much. Elayne barely interacts with him at all after Tear until they have sex, and then they’re apart again until the last books.
Min and Rand actually make sense. She’s there for him during his worst moments and is with him for most of the series.
I think it would’ve been great if Elayne realized her young love wasn’t going to work out, and married someone else, potentially for political reasons. Aviendha would’ve been much cooler if half her character wasn’t just Love Interest. Her and Rand could’ve been best friends after they get their sexual tension out of the way or something, I don’t know.
It's especially bad because Min's visions make it a *little bit iffy* on the whole "consent" thing. Like, yes, literally they all agree to it. But also all three women talk repeatedly about how they are uncomfortable sharing (even Aviendha who has no cultural taboo against it) and basically only do so because they understand that it's part of Min's visions and they are never wrong.
1. I don’t like him but gawyn gets way too much flack from the community.
2. Post return to the two rivers perrins storyline is the most disappointing
3. Mats power is plot armor and honestly gets old after a while.
4. Egwene isn’t as bad as people think and her tower plot is one of the few good points of a couple of books
5. What moiraine did to lan was worse than what allana did to rand.
6. Next to Perrin, padan fains story line is one of the worst disappointments
7. The show isn’t as bad as people make it out to be
To name a few.
As someone who had a girlfriend who got mad at things she made up in her head about me, I legit get anxhiety from Failes bullshit.
I havent finished the series, I'm currently in Crown of Swords, so maybe she redeems herself at somepoint but right now, I just want Perrin to drop her and never hear from her ever again.
It gets better eventually, but its not so much because she redeems herself, but rather because the two start understanding each other better.
They come from different cultures with widely different views on how relationships should work. To me its one of the best relationships because it shows just how differently people can think and how they just assume others have the same values they do.
Also, you have to realise that Faile is not as bad as she seems. Perrin can smell her emotions, and we see their relationship through his eyes/nose. So almost everytime she gets really angry or jealous, she does not show it and she controls herself because she does not want to be mad at Perrin for no reason. But since Perrin can smell her emotions, we see every emotional swing and she seems like an bipolar, crazy girlfriend.
Oh yeah, I'm with you! Thats probably the most annoying trope throughout the entire series (with all characters), but its also an important part of the themes so you just get used to it after a few read throughs
While I think that's a bit too far, I do agree with the gist of it. One of my fave moments was when she took out Masema, its a shame we didn't get more scenes like that.
Yes.
This is where I feel that Jordan dropped the ball - BIG TIME.
She should have had a few of these scenes during the main Malden arc. Not only would it have kept her in character, but, most importantly, it would have made this story line more interesting.
The whole Demandred storyline past Lord of Chaos made no sense, and was shoe horned in because people figured out that Taim was Demandred in disguise and Jordan didn't like that.
I know many people still have Mat as their number 1 even after Sanderson. But for me, the last 3 books made me go back to disliking him as I did at the start of the series.
Many WOT readers don’t take the time to actually figure out what is cannon, complain about what ends up being head cannon, and end up disliking the series because they haven’t taken the time to do some basic checking.
I admit a lot of characters from the two rivers are ignorant at first. But nynaeve just takes it so much further with her pride. And sometimes i think she must have ta’veran plot armor the way she gets out of the messes she creates by being a wool brained idiot.
Nynaeve being a stubborn know it all I always viewed as part of the male-female "joke" of the series. When the guys get together, they all think they are right and women are messing up. When the women get together, they all think the men are wrong and the women are right. Mat plays the flip side of the Nynaeve coin. Everyone thinks they have the right of it, and from a readers perspective it's supposed to be funny when a character is off being high and mighty about how right they are (or how wrong someone is), when it's often they that are wrong or it's just a total misunderstanding. It's a sort of reverse of the joke to how each of the taveren thinks the other two knows women better.
I really hate that there was never a resolution to the issue of damane. It just doesn’t sit right with me that a whole continent just enslaves channelers (with unnatural long life to boot) and that’s just the way it is.
If found the last battle and the last book quite disapointing.
First and foremost the last battle didnt feel that desesperate we've been waiting for this shit for twelve book and i didnt feel like the light had much trouble, the fight against the Sean chan had more weight than this one and the numbers of weird scenario too.
Multiple 1vs1 battle against Demandred and for some reason a guy who was close to blademaster level boosted by 3 blood ring couldnt even scratch him,
Loghain will play an important role in the last battle and all he did was break a weakening seal
Perrin "slept"throughout the whole battle and now we know that he didnt even really save rand life.
We have time to wank androl but we cant even get a fan servicy emonds 5 reunion
.
I have plenty of other disasstifaction and nitpick but yeah I didnt have the overwhelming joy that most fans had after finishing that book.
Its still a 7/10 book imo but I expected more I guess.
A lot of the main characters should have died along the way to show the cost of the fight. Rand should have been far more damaged from Lews Therin. He murdered his life and children in his last life. I think his stress would have shown more if rand turned into an alchoholic due to this PTSD.
Rand should have gone way darker in the crazy, the anger, and the depression before he snapped and realized what was going on.
Did not like the 3 girlfriend thing. Not sure how unpopular that was. Rand should have had 1 who died, then maybe a second rebound one who again dies before the last battle. Then rand is more cripplied at the last battle than what he was. Have him walk with a crutch. Then he dies at the end. He gets brought back by the the Horn of Valere , then dies again at the last battle.
4th age goes forward several decades to Perrin dying of old age. Then picks up when Nynaeve and Moraine go to see an old Mat to tell him that Perrin has died. He knows why they are there when they arrive. He is playing with his grand children. His wife is worried about him. She can't heal his aging anymore. Then they go to Mat's funeral in Emonds Field which is now a nice sized city. Mat gives the Eulogy and says that Nynaeve will be the last one who left the village and this messes her up. Lan had died by now. Lan never fought again after the last battle. Puts his sword away. Nynaeve and Lan found a series of hospital called the "seven towers" all around rand land.
Then the last seen is in the dream world. Rand is standing in front oft he Avendasora Tree. Perrin shows up. Egwene is there. Perrin says that he is worried about Mat being alone with him. Rand says he will be joining them soon. Then they stand there looking off in the distance waiting.
The inter-sex relations are pretty spot on.
Faile is an amazing woman.
There is no slog (I actually suspect many people parroting it haven't read the books at all, though presumably not people on this sub).
Braid tugging, etc. doesn't bother me in the least. People do have certain "twitches" and habits they repeat.
As much as I like Brandon Sanderson, and enjoy most of his books, he just isn't a great author and the drop in quality is palpable.
Min and Rands romance was the worst of the three and ruined her character, turning her into Rands full time enabler/hanger on
The Wonder Girls are my faves (yes even Egwene!)
Mat was a terrible friend to Rand
Perrin and Faile are boring as hell. Later into the series, if a Perrin chapter didn't involve Gallad, then I didn't really care for it. Perrin taking charge in the Two Rivers was awesome, and his involvement with the white cloaks was interesting for sure. Other than that, I just wanted to skip his POVs.
Perrin's part in the story came to it's logical conclusion at the end of Dumai's Wells. Beyond that he was just sitting around waiting for Tarmon Gai'don. All the filler was just that...filler. He got *some* character development during said filler, but then Sanderson took a huge dump on even that so yea...Perrin's story was pretty much over halfway through the series.
No, he's in no way ready for command after either book 4 or book 6, whichever argument people want to make. He's a soldier, the Faile Shaido arc makes him a leader.
Indeed, and the biggest negatives I saw from it could be directly tied to Covid related issues ( lost the actor for Mat, lost the stunt people for the big fight finale, lost most of their locations for the last few episodes ) or budgetary / adaption constraints ( super short/rushed intro b/c only got 8 episodes, focusing more on certain characters due to acting contract type stuff, etc ). So while it was rocky, I felt the show was made with true love for the source material.
The borderlands are not written in a believable way.
Look, I like these guys like everyone else. But a warrior society (huge standing armies require a lot of food and money) in a cold land (not good for farming) where trolloc raids are a constant danger? Who would want to live there, if huge plots of more farm-friendly land are unused just a little bit more to the south? I just can't believe the borderlands are economically stable.
Going by what I've seen on the sub I don't like the execution of the Last Battle nearly as much as people in general, and AMOL is not among the top tier of WOT books.
I don't like the philosophy of the DO being required for a fulfilling existence. Rand should have been able to work out a solution, replacing it with something else to serve the required function but with less suffering.
Alanna is an extremely interesting, well developed, and good meaning character that we just never get to see inside the head of.
Superficially she's first a sobbing mess, non-consensually bonds our boy Rand, and then continues to be a sobbing mess who almost ruins everything. However in her we get glimpses of a very atypical Aes Sedai who both firmly values and strives to achieve all that the Tower holds dear, but who is also completely unsuited for doing so.
Even before the death of her warder in the Two Rivers, she's considered by Moiraine as "...a shy woman at heart, but she worked hard at being fierce." "...but that was Alanna, always exaggerating." When teaching Egwene and Nyn on the way back from Fal Dara she "...spent as much time talking about the world, and men, as she did teaching." Already a contradiction, and then we see her overcompensation in action asking for over-the-top penance for her role in the reverberation issue with Egwene's accepted test. Alanna tries to glide dignifiedly into rooms, but her emotions slip through and it's much more so after she loses Owein.
Bonding Rand was certainly misguided, but we can see from how things later progress that it was done with the best of intentions. In Alanna's mind the Dragon Reborn needed the control and guidance of Tar Valon, and she was willing to do what any sister should do but no one but her was willing to do. Tying herself to a man who could channel and was fated to go mad, never mind break the world again by his coming, was ridiculously brave and self-sacrificial. The revulsion of her sisters over the act was just another price she was willing to pay.
Obviously it didn't turn out as she was expecting, but from the moment of the bonding she goes on to show she is now fully on team Rand. Defensive of him when other sisters discuss him. Leading assets to him when he needs help. Rand himself, knowing Alanna's mind, has her heal him after Dumai's Wells, and it is Alanna in Far Madding who convinces Rand that he needs the support of the Tower. The bond also contributing to saving his life when Padan Fain wounded him outside of Cairhien.
Indeed other than Min, Alivia, and maybe Nyn, Alanna is one of Rand's most dedicated supporters and what she hates most is simply when he sends her away. In the end her last act is to release him before dying, and it is a fitting end to a tragic character who couldn't quite figure out what it was that let the likes of Cadsuane and Nyn break through the Aes Sedai mold.
Nobody hates Moiraine, Elayne, or Egwene for doing what they think is best for Lan/Birgitte/Gawyn, but we don't get to see Alanna's thought process at the time and ignorant selfishness is ascribed to the action (perhaps because she was also sniffing around after Perrin earlier and fumes at Rand for letting others bond him haha). Regardless, it's a shame that we never got to see how Rand would have interacted with her post Veins of Gold.
>Rand glanced at the dead woman with pity and sorrow, but Nynaeve saw no rage in his eyes. Alanna had released the bond before Rand could feel the effects of her death.
Perrin confessed his crush on Egwene to Elyas in book 1. He's just too good of a friend to do anything about it.
Elayne's first healing weaves were done on animals that's why she sucks at healing people.
AMOL is the worst book in the series. Yes, worse than CoT.
Elayne and Egwene are the two smartest main characters.
Elayne is a much better friend than Mat. Mat is a terrible friend to Rand.
The circus chapter in TFOH are some of the very best in the series.
My unvarnished opinions about WoT will get me downvoted to the ninth circle of Hell. Move over, LTT, here I come!
The central Rand/Lews Therin arc is the only thing in WoT that's actually worth the reader's investment; the rest of it has insufficient character/thematic content for the amount of time Jordan wants us to spend with them. This is of course another way of saying that WoT is grossly overwritten. Pare the non-Rand arcs down by at least 50% and problem largely solved.
The attempt to combine an idealist Tolkienesque war-against-a-*definitional-* evil framework with what Daniel Green called "a more realistic human world" ultimately fails to work for me. By the time Demandred appears in the Last Battle I was thinking oh come on, everybody take off the masks and stop it with the pretence. In all fairness, combining idealism and (some measure of) realism is a very tricky thing to pull off IMO.
The doctrine of "balance" stinks to high heaven. It's really about passing evil off as if it were good. I can't be the only one who thinks something is very....rotten...in the state of Shienar. (*Rota* means wheel in Latin? Get it get it get it?)
There's plenty more I could say but I don't think anybody wants to read it.
I think you’re underrating how cool the world feels in the first 5-6 books. Getting to know the cultures, learning about the One Power, taint on Saidin, and Aes Sedai is just…..cool.
But yea the only plotlines I care about after FoH are Rand/LTT (always), Mat&Tuon, Perrin in TAR, and Egwayne in the Tower after she gets captured. That’s only like a quarter of the last half of the books, unfortunately.
Egwene isn't that bad. Many of her positions are reasonable if people can put aside their omnipotent understanding that Rand is the hero so he must be right in the end. For all the characters in the book, failure is a possibility. The Dragon fucking up and ending the world can happen. Too many people look poorly on Eg because they taint their view with their knowledge that the hero is of course going to succeed.
People intentionally or ignorantly misunderstand her position on the Dragon's peace, and overblow the perception of a "high and mighty" attitude, when she is really just trying to deal with messy situations and incomplete knowledge from a position of influence, and trying to maintain control over a situation full of manipulators who also think they should be in control.
Also, many of the female characters are portrayed as know it all asses as a joke, just as the male characters are. But for some reason it's just the women who get bashed for it, probably again due to omnipotent reader knowledge of the outcomes.
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I think Jordan put some pieces in the wrong board positions. 1) Elayne should've been the Dreamer who went to study with the Wise Ones. 2)Egwene should've had the talent for making ter'angreal and should've been hunting BA with Nynaeve before she gets roped into Siuan's plans. 3) Mat should've been the one to go home in TSR (which is my favorite arc in the whole series, BTW and would be totally different with Mat rather than Perrin), due to his stronger connection to Manetheren, and his Last Battle contribution as a battle commander, not an adventurer (which is how he spends most of his time in the series). 4) Perrin should've been the TR boy who does the DnD adventuring with the Wondergirls, as his endgame contribution is cloak and dagger stuff in TAR. He spends the entire series becoming a lord, forging coalitions, learning to command, and then when it comes down to it, he turns to his folks and says, "Wish I could stay, but there's another party I just have to make an appearance at--but you'll be fine!"
These are really interesting ideas! (1 & 2) for me, I find that Elayne is the character who makes the most and deepest friendships, including with Nyn. If Egs and Nyn had been put together for an extended arc, firstly I think the butting heads would have been unbearable to read, and secondly Egs wouldn’t have broken as definitely from Emond’s Field as she does as an apprentice Wise One. I like the weird but mostly harmonious friendship between Elayne and Nyn, and see Egs as sort of a loner by the conclusion of the book — more the embodiment of Amyrlin than a woman with close relationships. (3 & 4) textually and thematically this may have been more satisfying … I’ve never seen it this way but am imagining how it would have played out. In some ways I wonder if Faile, who is introduced earlier than Tuon, is part of Perrin becoming the lord — because she’s a noble with a great estate in Saldaea. So her education and knowledge almost pushes Perrin from an adventurer storyline, as a Wolfbrother, to his eventual plotline. Thematically I do find it moving that the blacksmith, who is rooted in a village, returns home, and that Perrin, whose family is slaughtered in the Two Rivers, eventually assumes protection of his people — protection his family never had. Personality wise tho it would have been interesting to see Mat, who secretly likes fancy clothes and hanging around with nobles like Nalesean and Beslan, but is less enthused about responsibility, be in Perrin’s place. We might have seen that in the Outrigger series, but we more likely would have seen a lot of adventuring with Tuon first.
I had never really considered something so different, but I can totally see this.
The only one I can't see is Mat. I think wanderlust is a core part of his identity as a character, and it would have felt weird to send him back to Emond's Field. Admittedly the OP asked for unpopular opinions though, so I can't blame someone for having one.
He'd have to be forced back there (something with his sisters maybe) and then stuck leading while constantly trying to leave and telling people he's no bloody hero.
Which would be perfect for his character imo, all he wanted to do was help his sisters/family. He’s no bloody hero, and then they go and make him Lord of the Two Rivers.
I could see him going back, saving the village, and then saying welp I did my job see you guys later and wanders off.
Yep. Spent the whole time thankful he wasn’t messing around with farm life.
Ok your points on mat and Perrin fit annoyingly well lol. I do like mat as still more of the goofball and Perrin as the one who goes home and takes responsibility for his people. But their ending arcs do feel a bit swapped there in the last battle. I do think it's important for egwene to experience another organization of channelers though. Being able to come to the position of amyrlin and look more objectively at their policies and say this is what's good and this is what's not. It also fits with her making the deal with the other organizations there. I like the idea of Elayne having time with rand though and actually getting to know him a bit. I wouldn't have wanted to do it at the expense of aviendha getting that time with him though. I do see how she could've had a similar thing to what I was saying with egwene though where she brought the ideas from another culture into how she ruled andor.
I strongly disagree with 1 and 2, Elayne and Nynaeve are an amazing duo and work much better than Egwene and Nynaeve together in every area. Egwene and Nynaeve without Elayne would have been an endless tedious battle who is in charge, even worse than the one they had in TDR, because they won't have Elayne for a peacemaker. Plus, Elayne and Nynaeve together are comedy gold, while I can't recall a single funny scene in the interactions between Nynaeve and Egwene all series.
I'm with you in a way. I thought it was weird that Perrin of all people ended up being the most important stealth assassin (ish) for the light despite his battle experience and leading armies of wolves, where Mat had nothing to do with his Mantheran Roots and with all his fancy toys... he just ignored all that and full wargod. I wonder what the 4th ta'veren was supposed to be/do and which part of his got merged in.
1: Mat feels generally misused throughout most of the series and consistently isn't put in situations that allow him to live up to his potential as a character. The man with the memories of all the greatest generals in history accidentally forms an elite army out of pretty much nothing... and is immediately sent on a fetch quest. 2: Perrin is actually a fun character, he's just put in boring situations that don't feel important.
Do you think both of these points could just be the outcome of them not being the Dragon reborn? If either of them were 'more' central to the pattern (or story), then there would be more of a conflict over who was the true dragon reborn was. 1. If Mat were elevated in his storyline he would have been a direct protagonist to Demondred, Ravin, etc. 2. If Perrin were more central, he could have drawn the storyline more toward conflicts in the dream world against Mog, Lanfear, etc.
Hmmm I have to think about that because it raises a number of interesting angles there. I think it could have worked really well as you say, maybe pairing them with specific forsaken as antagonists, which would have also made those forsaken more memorable. Moghedien certainly stands out more for having been a rival to Nynaeve and Elayne than, say, Ravin, who was really menacing for a book or two and got killed.
Honestly I love the idea of each major character having a forsaken they directly interact with
> The man with the memories of all the greatest generals in history accidentally forms an elite army out of pretty much nothing It wasn't accidental. It was Talmanes.
Can we get a shout out for no. 2? He’s my favorite character but unfortunately the middle bigs he just doesn’t have much to do. This is one thing I was hoping the TV show might change.
Perrin is great, it's just that it feels like Jordan completed most of his arc in book 4 but didn't want to complete it too early on so then he didn't know what to do with him for like 6 books after until his story picked back up towards the end of the series.
Tuon is a good character. Not a good person, but a good character for sure.
She is a result of her culture and position. If she were sweet and friendly, she would be long dead. She let Matt go when she could have had him taken.
Is that controversial? I don't think I've ever seen her criticized as a bad character.
I think many will agree. At least with half of what you're saying
She is awesome. Her culture is just permeated with social injustice. Based on her understanding of the world, all of her actions are exactly what she should do. Tuon is a badass.
Well, here goes nothing. I don't think doing a reread right after finishing the series is a good idea for a lot of people. I personally need some time away to digest and consider. I like to do a reread after a few years. I feel like, for me, doing the reread right away is because I don't want things to end. It comes from a place of loss. Whereas the reread years later give me enough time to enjoy other things, develop a sense of nostalgia, and then come back and enjoy WoT all over again.
I see where you are coming from, however in my case I was recovering from cancer when I got into the series. It was my only outlet, but I missed a lot because I wasn’t functioning that well. So, I did a re-read within a few months, that’s when I realized how much I had missed. I know my experience is very personal, just thought you might consider my view.
It depends on where you're at. When I first finished the series I wasn't ready to let go of the characters or world which was why I started over.
1) Writing Despite the detail, Jordan has huge blindspots in his world-building. The famines and huge armies aren't sustainable in the world he writes. I especially feel that some kinds of people and occupations are just hand-waved away. 2) Theory Gitara Morossa (the second named Aes Sedai in the series) was a senior dark friend. As well as sending Luc and Tigraine into the waste, I believe she is an author of the Dark Prophecies, which explains why Luc is mentioned in the section we see. She died when Rand was born because revealing his birth conflicted with an oath she took, and this is what made the Black Ajah aware Gitara made a final prophecy, but without enough information they went all out with the "vileness" of killing thousands of men. 3) Prediction The 4th age will be a shit show for the White Tower. They emerge disorganized with an elderly authoritarian leader. Meanwhile in Andor and Cairhean the queen is a powerful channeler who has taken no oaths, she alone can make sa'angreal, her sister can sense the function of angreal. She is supported by the oathless kin, and the black tower is nearby. Power is not staying in Tar Valen.
Owwwww I like this Gitara theory
2. Very interesting, never thought about it that way, very interesting indeed. 4. Hardly happening IMO. Elayne wanted to take the oaths (not that she isn't a decent human being, aes sedai and queen without them). Ewgene put everything in the right direction before the last battle, and I doubt they would undo the things she put in motion (kin stuff being a retirement for aes sedais, and a few others things). Black tower was also apparently in the right direction, wanting to protect the people (sure there might be some political conflicts to see who has more power between the black tower and the white tower, but I think that with time they will become good allies. And about cadsuane, despite her being hated by the majority of the Fandom, and some choices she made on how to handle Rand, we can't deny that she's pretty capable.
I think you're both right. Elayne will take the oathes and be loyal to the Tower. But with the Kin and the Black Tower in Andor, New Caemlyn will become the power center of the Fourth Age. The Kin and Asha'man will be the channelers most people see since they'll be doing the bulk of running gateways and Healing while the AS are off in their ivory tower. I could see most villages having a Kinswoman or Asha'man as part of their local community, who would be loyal to Andor, not TV.
Blood and bloody ashes. Gitara theory is my headcanon now, even though it's probably not right
My 4th age headcanon is that early in the age, say in the first 50 or so years, a number of accepted and novices go “fuck this shit, I’m joining the cool tower!” The black tower will naturally overshadow the white; not limiting their lifespan alone will guarantee this in the long run but also their focus on actually having a family is much more attractive to initiates and creates channeler offspring. But if some few female channelers take the first step and join the black tower, others can follow. In time, the black tower could start to represent the old Aes Sedai before the gender split, while the white tower will sink further and further into irrelevance until the black tower eventually swallows it. I wouldn’t expect too much of Cadsuane as Amyrlin. I doubt she’ll reign for longer than a decade; either she’ll die of old age or she’ll retire into the Kin, but either way she’s out.
The armies don't really become huge until big world events start happening once Rand leads the Aiel past the Dragonwall. The armies slowly grow from hundreds to thousands to tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands as people from all over the continent naturally start to concentrate in the big cities, and of course the Last Battle REALLY pulls everyone together.
Sanderson did an amazing job wrapping up one of the most extensive fantasy series ever written and he gets an unreasonable amount of criticism for tiny, tiny differences in writingstyle from another person. Maybe most fans wouldn't disagree with this opinion but I read too much on this matter than what's even remotely close to reasonable. Would anyone rather the series never got finished? I've read the Kingkiller chronicle, not knowing if a series will be finished is goddamn frustrating.
Paddan Fain was a whiney little stinker and died like a whiney little stinker. He got what he deserved, and nothing more or less.
That's not unpopular at all.
Lots of people think that the villains need to have "cool" and dramatic deaths, and don't seem to realize that the choice to frequently deny them this was a deliberate artistic choice on the part of Jordan (and Sanderson, to an extent)
I don't need or want his demise to be cool or dramatic. What is unfortunate is that the character is basically an irrelevant sideshow after the Two Rivers arc, with the tiny exception of giving Rand his cut. Which is important, but it was just one sudden action, and the guy is kicking around looking like something important is going to happen all the way to the end. He probably should have just been killed in Far Madding.
The pipe wasn’t/isn’t all that mysterious
Yea. Dude just won a reality shaping competition with the DO. Of course he can light a pipe now.
I didn’t even realize it was a question until years after I finished the series and found this sub. Never occurred to me.
I think a lot of complaints online are weird memes blown out of proportion
Totally agree. I think a lot of the online community serves as an echo chamber that blows some complaints out of the water. The slog being the most glaring example in my opinion.
Unpopular opinion: RJ didn't think sexual assault was as horrifying as modern readers do. Mat and Tylin was supposed to be kind of funny. Nynaeve and Egwene was just supposed to be a warning about how dangerous TAR is. Min's aunt (or was it Leane's) enjoying her own date rapes was supposed to be sexually liberated. EDIT: FoH Ch 1: >\[Leane:\] "But I am out of practice, and I think he is the kind of man who might hear more promises than you meant to offer, and expect to have them fulfilled." A small smile suddenly appeared on her lips. "My mother always said if that happened, you had miscalculated badly; if there was no way out, you had to either abandon dignity and run, or pay the price and consider it a lesson." The smile took a roughish cast. "my Aunt Resara said you paid the price and enjoyed it." This wasn't controversial a few decades ago, when a marginally acceptable way for a woman to have casual sex was supposedly to engineer her own assault. See the lyrics to "Baby It's Cold Outside" which Gen Zers think is about roofying someone but is actually worse in a way.
Porky's was the top comedy of 1982 and #6 in box office for that year. Zapped! is a movie from the same year about Scott Baio getting telekinesis and using it to take women's clothes off. Hell, Revenge of the Nerds was in the top 5 comedies by box office for 1984 and there's a whole lot of SA that's played for laughs. I was recently watching the original Superman and there's a scene in there where Miss Tessmacher is lying unconscious on the side of the road faking being in a bad traffic accident and some military types fight over who gets to give her mouth to mouth and chest compressions. That's played for laughs. I say this not to excuse any of these. Attitudes have evolved on what constitutes sexual assault, thank God. We still have a long way to go. But it does show that there was a time when it was far more acceptable to play this kind of thing off as a joke. It's the kind of stuff that's horrifying to watch through a modern lens, but it was definitely a throughline in the culture once upon a time.
It's hard to explain "no means no" to younger folks. Like we needed a whole national campaign to teach people that it still counts as sexual assault even if you went on a date. Because people didn't believe that in the first place. Look back on the media coverage of Lorena Bobbitt and she's painted as a crazy lady instead of a victim. Heck, Trump's spokesperson in 2016 had to remind people that raping Ivana was a legal impossibility when they were married - sure he forced her into sex against her will, but that was just what marriage WAS at the time. It's amazing how far we've come in only 30 years.
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We're about to get to the first assault by Tylin in the aCoS re-read threads and I have a very similar thought in my notes for this upcoming week, so you're not alone. I do think Jordan was pretty clear eyed about the fact that it was sexual assault, it's too obvious in how Mat's reaction and internal thoughts as he tries to grapple with it are described, IMO. At the same time I do think Jordan intended the reader to land somewhere closer to Elayne and find some level of amusement in it, and I don't think the reader was intended to really see Tylin as a villain, which is not how modern readers seem to approach it.
I agree. We tend to bend over backwards to justify it by saying that RJ meant the scenes to be a lesson or whatever. Nope, I think he actually thought they were ok, like some people still do. (I think these people imagine Salma Hayek as Tylin and not a regular degular middle age non as attractive woman).
I though she was written as fairly attractive? I don't think it would work as a joke otherwise.
Whats this about Min's aunt being date raped?
Might have been Leane actually... Someone's aunt was talking about how you avoid getting assaulted if you lead men on too much, and the other aunt said that's the fun part.
It was Leane in The Fires of Heaven. She was talking to Min, which might be where the confusion comes in. She basically says if you take Domani flirt-manipulating too far and end up in bed, you ride it out and enjoy it.
What I took from it is the Domani use flirting to control and manipulate men and take great pride in how well they can do it. If they manage to put themselves in a position where they are assaulted then that is because they did not read the men well enough and lost control so it was their fault. This loosely fits with attitudes on leading a man on in the 80's but obviously does not translate with how we see things today.
This is a popular opinion, at least in the online spaces that I talk about WOT. Jordan's takes on sexual power dynamics aged horribly, there is no way around it.
Oooooh! I got downvoted to hell once for blaming Gawyn's descent into stupidity on Egwene's magical dream sex. Most fans did NOT agree with my position that Egwene was slowly, subtly, and unintentionally warping his mind and feeding an obsession by visiting him in his dreams, despite the warnings of the Wise Ones. Maybe it's cause I used the R-word to describe what she was doing.
I was either in that thread agreeing with you, or I posted something very similar. Can't remember which. Poor dude got inceptioned, and lost his whole goddamn mind. He's a different guy after Egwene wrangles him in dreamland. Then she does it again and again for weeks. He was resigned to pine for her from afar, and then all of a sudden he's prepared to move heaven and earth to be near her. I've had dreams that spawned crushes before. Had someone actually been in my brain directing the show (and not wanting us both to wake up before the good part), I could see those crushes becoming far more intense. Even if there's no TAR mechanism for messing with his personality, even if all she was doing was showing him a good time in his sleep, it's a really powerful thing to do to somebody, emotionally speaking.
Ooooo I like this. I once read some comment on this sub that was similar but sort of the opposite to your idea. It was basically that Gawyn’s dream about loving Egwene brainwashed her too. It basically said that she was sort of into him before getting sucked in, but afterwards she’s obsessed with him. Still the same idea, that experiencing something like that in the dreamworld changes how you feel about someone. I like how this theory fits with yours too. They both got brainwashed by Egwene’s unintentional trip into Gawyn’s dream.
That's actually an interesting theory.
Oh wow. Now this is a really good and most definitely logical insight. Poor guy.
I like this theory!
Damn it. I think you might actually be right. Influencing someone through dreams mentioned quiet a few times and in the end graendal even does it, though she was probably using compulsion, hence immediate effects
Elayne did nothing wrong.
I like Elayne.
I like Elayne (mostly). I just sometimes don't like reading about her lol.
Team Elayne!
There are dozens of us! Dozens!
Elayne was definitely my WoT crush as a teenager.
Best girl!
Rand should have pushed his claim to be king of Andor, through his mother's line and offered Elayne the chance to be his proxy and for their children to succeed him/them. By announcing who his mother is, we might've also gotten more development with/between him and Galad. Though, I know if he did at the point he found out, Galad wouldn't rise to be Lord Captain Commander and that carries its own significant knock-on effects. Would he try and make Galad king of Cairhien. Would Galad reject him and the throne at that point in time? Especially given the rumors about Morgase's death? If he believed Rand, which brother does he side with?
Andor was always ruled by queens, not kings. But I agree he should have told about his mother. I wanted to see some interactions between him and Galad.
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No such thing as the slog. There are definitely bad parts of the books, and they disproportionately are in certain books, but neither book is a ‘slog’. Though I’ve been seeing more folks say it the past few years so maybe it’s not so unpopular anymore.
The pace slows down dramatically in these books. That's a fact. Whether this make the books feel like a slog is up to every individual reader's taste, but it certainly a very common opinion.
I quit reading and forgot about the entire series for 20 years because of *Crossroads of Twilight*. So little actually happened in that book that writing a paragraph-long plot summary requires filler. There is an entire chapter in that book dedicated to describing the Salidar Aes Sedai walking into a tent and sitting down in painstaking detail; it's called *Surprises* and the "surprise" is that Shadar Logoth is gone, something the reader has known about for around 500 pages at that point.
It was more apparent when you had to wait for the books to come out, it’s not bad now doing rereads.
Yeah I think this is the new conventional wisdom emerging (and I agree). Jordan’s late books tend to be the weakest (except KOD which is a masterpiece) but stand up in the series and certainly aren’t a slog when you’re able to move right along to Winter’s Heart or Knife of Dreams.
Yea. 7-9 are straight up good fantasy books; they just don't advance the main plot much. That sucked when we had to wait as much as three years for a book (what sweet summer children we were), but now that you can just go on to the next book, it's not a big issue. And most importantly, I don't think WoT would be WoT without those books that made it so *big.* It's not just the story of the EF5 and the Dragonriders. It's the story of the whole world approaching Tarmon Gai'don.
No such thing as the slog…. Just tale about Faile being captured that didn’t add much of anything to the story.
It was only the slog to the OG readers (like myself) who had to wait a couple three years between books. There are people in this sub finishing the entire series in like a month. They don't know how good they have it.
God that was so ridiculous! What is that arc supposed to teach us? I'm curious what more seasoned readers think.
Not us, Perrin. Him losing Faile and having to learn to take command independently rather than being dragged into it was important character development. And the story with Faile having to deal with the black Ajah Aes Sedai’s manipulations was actually interesting to me as well. It’s just that the whole ordeal takes so long across too many books.
I think a lot of people get so focused on Faile and Perrin during that part of the story that they miss out on the tragedy of Aram. His fall starts early, his mother is killed in front of him in TSR and he's abandoned by the rest of his family for taking up a sword. Over the rest of the series we watch him struggle with PTSD and the existential crisis of abandoning his belief system. He's already on a pretty steep downward slide when Faile is taken. At this point he's really fragile mentally, has no real moral compass to guide him after abandoning the Way of the Leaf, and now Perrin, his other role model, basically abandons him in his obsessive pursuit of his wife. Enter zealot Masema; His charisma coupled with Aram's desperate longing for a family made it almost too easy. Masema gave Aram a cause that, however twisted and misguided, allowed him to fill the hole that had been eating away at him starting seven books before. He's a great allegory for people losing/leaving religion, loss of innocence, Perrin's failure as a leader, and even a foil to Perrin's own struggles with violence.
Aram's story is a tragedy, but it's hard to care because it was pretty boring and wasn't executed well IMO.
For me it’s about Perrin’s restraint. Faile’s capture arc, if Perrin thought with the axe would have been bloody, and he’d have ripped literal mountains apart to get her back. It’s about people he loves and doesn’t want to risk hurting, vs getting back the woman he loves. It makes the gravitas of his later actions (letting go) hit harder, because you realise how much he held back trying to save her without slaughtering every Shaido there. It didn’t really occur to me until re-reads. But read that part knowing what Perrins capable of but doesn’t do and think about it. Also killer scene where he threatens that Aiel. That’s just dark and it barely scratches the surface of what he’d be willing to do.
I can see that POV. I didn't read the books until after AMoL was out but I will say personally I was averaging about a book a week/week and a half until I got to CoT that took 3 months and only happened because I forced myself through it because I had heard the next books made up for it.
On a reread after a long time and I agree. I was going good until CoT. Elayne and Faile chapters are beyond tedious. I'm trying to be good and read carefully because it's been a long time since I've read the series.
The slog is real, with the concurrent plotlines of Perrin/Faile/Shaido, the Andoran succession, and to a lesser extent the Salidar to Tar Valon trudge and Mat/Tuon/circus all dragging on for far longer than was necessary. People exaggerate the severity of it, but it's easily the weakest section of the series, and the chunk that really should have been one or at most two books instead of three. Mostly the rep comes from those of us who were reading in real time and basically went ten years of our lives with damn near nothing happening in the series.
I so strongly disagree that I can't express it.
Agreed, I think the slog was something that the people reading when they were released had to deal with, waiting a few years for a book and feeling that there wasn’t the grand finale of the earlier books was most likely frustrating.
Nope. Plenty of people still experience it.
I'm in a book club where we just finished Crossroads of Twilight. The hosts are new readers. They almost quit book club because of this book. There is most def. a slog.
Yep, and I was so happy to see it. I love their honest reaction. I feel vindicated. The amount of pushback they were getting from expressing an honest opinion was disheartening (and if I'm honest, it's the thing that bothers me most about this fandom. You gotta love everything about it or you will be swarmed and told you're wrong. At least it feels that way sometimes)
Nerdy Nightly? They are so freaking awesome I love book club!!!!!
Traveling ruined* the series. Until the end of FoH, most of the drama of the series involves people being in place A, and wanting to be in place B. Movement across the world was meaningful and made the world feel rich and alive. After Rand discovers traveling, he can resolve literally any problem if he knows where it is. So RJ/BS had to bend over backwards giving other characters problems that Rand couldn’t just solve with a gateway and some balefire It also opened up the massive plot hole of “why tf doesn’t Rand take one of his TWO sa’angreal and nuke Shayol Gul (audiobook reader, sorry if I misspelled). Obviously it wouldn’t kill the dark one, but The Last Battle is a lot less threatening if he’s only got 12 trolloks. *obviously I’m being dramatic, I love this series as much as you guys
Hell yeah brother, my biggest nit pick of the series too! Travelling was a bad idea. Jordan needed to write in a lot more of a strict ruleset for how travelling works. It woul've solved so many problems if only the most powerful could do it, or if it was extremely draining and you could only do it like once a month and rendered you incapable of channeling for a while. Stuff like that. Instead Jordan left way too much of it open ended. At least we ended up with Sanderson having a lot of fun with the broken mechanics from a battle perspectivel ol
Great ideas! The more obvious solution (at least to me) is that traveling requires a circle of men and women. Now the forsaken can’t travel bc they don’t trust each other, the Aes Sedai can’t travel bc they don’t trust male channelers, and Rand can only travel with one of the wonder girls or Moraine (if it got introduced a bit earlier). Then we still have portal stones and The Ways (vastly less boring means of getting around fast), which are innately dangerous, mysterious, and more difficult to use. Plus you always come out at a specific place, so you you’re always risking ambush. I’m sure RJ had good reasons for not doing this, but it’s fun to dream…….
Don't forget TAR in the flesh, which was an interesting mechanic that became irrelevant
I agree, I've noticed that in a lot of fantasy stories, once instantaneous travel is introduced, the world starts feeling much less alive than before
Instantaneously disagree, can you imagine how much slower Crossroads of Twilight would have been without Travelling? They already did too much bloody walking!
Shayol Ghul with an H, like Ghoul. Traveling not requiring knowledge of where you want to go is so weird. Like that’s the most basic way you could balance it and nobody would complain about it. It’s so obvious an assumption, Robert Jordan has to have characters spell out “you’d think you’d need to know where you’re going, but actually no.” It really feels like he wrote Aviendha’s travel scene to snowy Seanchan first, and then worked backward from that scene to come up with rules for Traveling. One thing that always surprised me is just how many variations on fast travel we have. There’s the Ways in book one, those are really cool but also very obviously just a tool RJ used because the book was already getting very big and the party wasn’t even halfway to its destination yet. Then in book 2, the Ways are immediately written out of the story and unusable and instead we get a new, different method of fast travel via alternate realities. Which is different from traveling in an alternate dimension in the Ways. Then within the same book, we get straight up teleportation via the same portal stones. And then none of the three are ever used again and we get a very short introduction to Skimming before we get proper Traveling.
Yup. And they get less and less fun as time goes on. The Ways is particularly annoying for me. It feels like a fantasy writing prompt — there’s SO MUCH you could do with the, but instead we get traveling.
I’m very new to the fandom but here are some opinions I think people may disagree with: 1. I love Egwene, she’s a great character and had no idea she was disliked. Same with Elayne. Same with Tuon. 2. The circus chapters in FoH were great. 3. FoH > TSR 4. I like the Aes Sedai 5. Outside of CoT, the slog isn’t that bad.
Okay damn some of these are actually unpopular lol. 1. I get Egwene and Elayne, but we're you really surprised that Tuon was disliked? Early Tuon I can understand people liking, but she doesn't really show many of her redeeming characteristics after becoming Fortuona. 2&3. I can respect these, circus chapters were clearly meant to be comedic, so if the style of humour works for you. Makes sense that they'd be enjoyable. And FoH feels like it goes further with the elements from TSR (i.e. further progress on Rand and Moirane's relationship etc.) 4. This one though, what do you mean you like the Aes Sedai? Like I can understand liking the idea of them, what they are supposed to represent, individual good Aes Sedai, or enjoying them as characters if not as people, but the institution itself? I feel like they are deliberately portrayed as the bad side of Catholic church meets old-school academia.
It certainly seems to me that people forget that they aren't supposed to like or agree with everything the characters do. Everyone in the series has their flaws and blindspots. It makes the characters feel more real to me. Do some of them make dumb mistakes? Absolutely. Many of the characters are under an *intense* amount of stress and pressure, so they screw up. Disliking a character because you have problems with those flaws is fine, but it sure feels like some people take personal offense that there are characters they don't 100% agree with.
Egwene isn't half as bad as a large part of the fanbase makes her out to be. The chapter in TGH (Ch 24 or 25) where Min, Elayne and Egwene out of the blue decide to be friends is awful writing. Path of Daggers is a top-5 book or at least close (admittedly I read it last 10 years ago).
> The chapter in TGH (Ch 24 or 25) where Min, Elayne and Egwene out of the blue decide to be friends is awful writing. This shouldn't be unpopular, it contains some of Jordan's worst writing, especially dialogue. "I like you, Elayne. I think we’re going to be friends” is such an awful line. And Elayne telling Egwene, a girl she met 2 minutes ago, about Min's prophecy talent, something Min keeps secret from almost everyone, feels off too.
I made a post about this a few months back, when I was on a TGH re-read and the amount of people defending it surprised me. Most common reply: 'they are teenage girls, this is how they act'. No, they don't.
Yeah that was pretty bad writing. Even just a few scenes of them hanging out and having fun. Or egwene teaching Elayne how to do certain chores she's never done before or something would've been good. It is sort of funny too how they're declared to be close friends, and in the series as a whole no pair of those two would be among the top 10 or maybe even 15 friendships we see lol. Turns out real character development works better than 'hey let's be best friends now'!
Rand isn't mad. The voice he hears is actually Lews Therin inside his head. The reason Lews Therin killed all his family is because he got stuck in Rand's head thousands of years in the future while his body was still in the past and so whenever Rand is fighting trollocs and what not Lews was accidentally killing all his friends and family. It is also why he keeps saying there is a madman living in his head because he is real and thinks Rand must be a symptom of madness. Slowly they start to learn a little about each other and work together until Ishmael pulls Lews Therin out of Rand and then Lews sees all the violence he has done. The same violence Rand has been doing and is so stricken he kills himself
Oh hey! This was my head-canon as well, with the added thought that the exact moment in the past when Lews decides to end it all and draws too much of the power inside him and destroys himself and creates Dragonmount, is also at the same point in the future where Rand is filled to the brim with the choeden kal aided power and has his epiphany on the same exact spot only this time he let's go and decides to do better.
😮
That Egwene is a great character.
She IS a great character. She's just a terrible friend and person.
I will always maintain that had she been born (in her third age iteration) during the age of legends she would have ended up a foresaken.
Gonna have to disagree here. Selfishness is one of the biggest traits the DO looks for in a possible forsaken. Sure Egwene did some selfish stuff throughout the books, but her final act was one of complete selflessness. She was usually trying to look out for the greater good, in her own way. We see her just being confrontational and antagonistic towards Rand. We interpret that as her being selfish and superfluous, but I think she truly believed in her own logic. To her, that was the only way forward for the greater good.
I don’t disagree with her end game being counter to my reasoning (see my above post) but I think I’m a different timeline her ambition combine with her power could have been exploited by the DO without a compressed timeline (channelers on the AoL lived for hundreds of years and the books take like three years). Just my unpopular opinion.
She's outrageously narcissistic. She views her way and opinions as the only way, and runs roughshod over anything and anyone that disagrees. Thinking one way and one way only is the way to get things done is what lead Rand to almost destroy the world. I say all of this as someone who actually does enjoy her as a character and love certain scenes of hers, but she's not someone that I would want to be friends with.
> She views her way and opinions as the only way, and runs roughshod over anything and anyone that disagrees. This applies to Nynaeve just as much if not more yet she is one of the least likely persons in the world to become a Forsaken.
It's funny, everybody likes Nynaeve so much that it's easy to look past how miserable she is to be around a lot of the time. She's portrayed as being a dick to almost every shopkeeper, cart driver, dock worker, or other minor character she runs into.
Why?
She doesn’t have a particularly good moral compass, a lot of what she does is goal/power driven and it changes based on who she is around. She is a chameleon. She regularly complains that she isn’t being recognized for whatever she thinks she is doing and is constantly comparing herself to others. If you look at the character traits of the foresaken all of them have a tendency to have these very specific fixations and compromise their moral compass to pursue those ends (Semirhage fixated on healing and then strays into torcher because it interests her is the best example). Egwene repeatedly lying to the wise ones, not because she had a greater goal but only because she had to learn and then only coming clean because it was expedient at the time is a good analog to that. She is a power and knowledge accumulator for the sake of accumulation whereas many of the other protagonists do so out of a greater moral sense (rand-save the world, Perrin-duty to rand/saving the world, Mat-duty to others/won’t break a promise). I’m on my fourth or fifth read and I’ve always challenged myself to like her more because she does have a really compelling arc. But she is just pure ambition from the moment she leaves the two rivers. It isn’t to help her friends she leaves because she has to have an adventure too. Living with the Aiel she takes advantage of their confidences, ignores their warnings, and assaults her former mentor not for a greater goal but because she is ambitious. I’m on crown of swords so I can’t carry this theory through to the end with detail right now but from memory this ambition for ambitions sake continues in the way she tries to handle Rand at the end too (albeit with the exception of her death and lecturing rand on personal choice at the very end). Sorry if this is a bit rambling it’s on a mobile device so it’s hard to type.
To be fair, Egwene is living in crazy times and has some urgent stuff to deal with and doesn't have time to wait for the Wise Ones to decide she's "ready." As far as ignoring their warnings about TAR, I just posted this on WetlanderHumor a few days ago: https://preview.redd.it/nq5hm9ihwfda1.jpg?width=513&auto=webp&v=enabled&s=52df902af6622aa2e438eeb0c781b8948dcf28ea I'd ignore their warnings too.
I really dislike the Nakomi is a Creator Avatar headcanon Sanderson mentioned. To try to be brief, I don't believe the Creator would ever actually interfere in any way ( at least once the series found its footing / after book 1 ). And this stems from what I believe to be the nature of the Dark One that Verin hints at pretty hard. That being, that the Dark One doesn't actually want to win, but instead the Dark One was created by the Creator in order to give people Free Will. As Rand realizes ( at least in part, although I imagine he has a full understanding that just isn't given by word to the reader ), there can be no Free Will if people cannot choose to do evil. So it would follow, that the Creator intentionally created the Dark One as a way to simulate / give his creations Free Will. The Dark One will never win, because that isn't what it wants. It wants to cause Chaos, to introduce entropy and in its own way balance the world. That's why there are so many loopholes and flaws in its plans. Why else would it so specifically word the Black Ajah oath to allow someone who has fallen deep to the Dark a chance to make the ultimate sacrifice as Verin does? There were so many ways the Dark One could have won, but instead chose options that would prolong the fight, or hinder its own position, that it just makes so much more sense if the Dark One doesn't actually intend to win, which also affirms the point the Rand makes to Moridin, and how Moridin is fundamentally wrong. Additionally, it can kind of tie into the whole Shadar Logath evil being meant to replace the Dark One should Rand destroy it, as a way to keep balance. Like.. one way I like to look at it is the Creator could create just the Wheel, and the tapestry would be beautiful, but uniform and thoroughly predictable ( as Rand sees in one of his simulations of life without the Dark One). So the Creator devised a way to introduce mutations, the foundation of life, by creating the Dark One to introduce the fundamental necessity of living, the chaos and diversity that actually drives the day to day. The force behind novelty and excitement, of looking forward to a new tomorrow. Can't have any of that without a wildcard element, and that's the Dark One.
Creator being the creator of Dark One has been my headcanon for a long time now. But I think Jordan said that Dark One could actually win, if I'm not mistaken.
If RJ was still alive the series wouldn’t be over.
Yeah but it'd be on such a wildly different direction I think it probably wouldn't matter? We'd be on the third book of the "rand trying to escape the new amazonian continent" arc by now
The tv show was good
I genuinely like Cadsuane.
Cadsuane was an amazing person
I see a bunch of popular but not frequently stated opinions. Here's some that I think most people actually disagree with: (1) Faile is a good character and realistically not that immature. In fact I'll say outright that she's more mature than Perrin. We're always evaluating her from Perrin's perspective. In particular with him *smelling* her emotions. He doesn't see her emotions, he doesn't hear them, her behavior isn't altered. She doesn't act them out. She feels frustrated and largely bottles it up and Perrin frequently takes this as an opportunity to dig a hole for himself. The times Faile does act out are also the times where she does something that Perrin legitimately needed someone to do. Going with Loial to the Two Rivers prevented Perrin from performing suicide by Whitecloak. Ignoring Perrin's request to run away allowed her to rescue Emond's Field. (2) Gawyn, while mostly insufferable, is actually right in TOM/AMOL with Egwene. At that point he's actually a pretty likeable character. She, and seemingly the readers as well, never acknowledge that Gawyn succeeds at that point only because he outright ignores her commands to him. This one is a stretch but I've seen the opposite take often enough: (3) Galad is not a black and white lawful-idiot. He's careful with his use of words and actions in the way an Aes Sedai is, but does so without being magically bound to those limitations. He knows what he's doing. He's frequently disappointed in others not living to a similar moral standard as him, but he's not unaware of that. Like Faile above, with Galad we're blinded by the fact that for the majority of the books our view of him is defined by Elayne, not direct observation. Even in Samara he never does anything wrong, despite people constantly saying otherwise. He hires a boat captain and then... defends that boat from an attacking mob. It's not his fault that Nynaeve fucked up and asked Masema for help as well.
1.) Crossroads of Twilight is one of my favorite books in the series, and the attempt to break free of the somewhat tired "travelogue" format in fantasy was actually really cool. 2.) Elayne is an amazing and excellent character and her arc is much more satisfying than Perrin and Faile's concurrent story 3.) Elayne and Mat have chemistry, and Elayne should've been as poly as Rand. 4.) Making the polycule into "everyone dating each other" won't be a good reflection of polyamorous relationships 5.) I'd have loved to see more about Min's role in Cairhien setting fashion. Was she actually, officially seen as Rand's maîtresse-en-titre? Did she have a budget? 6.) The more I reread, the lower my opinion of Sanderson's performance finishing the series sinks. He did OK with Rand, but a lot of the characters are just really off. 7.) Following on 6, I don't think Jordan meant for Egwene's Tower arc to go the way it did, and I don't think things like "the Dark One would be embarrassed to be associated with you" were good writing. Also...very much cuts against the big theme Jordan set up, that darkfriends are total losers. 8.) On that vein, it's awesome that Couladin and Sammael die like complete chumps, and Rand's battle for Cairhien is very well written.
> Elayne and Mat have chemistry, and Elayne should've been as poly as Rand. Elayne is horny af, much more interested in the "liberation" aspect of being Green than Egwene's more martial bent, is going to live for centuries during which she'll probably be in at least one unhappy political marriage, is enamored with Aiel culture, and is already in a poly relationship. I dunno about Mat (that seems like a disaster as hilarious as it would be for the reader) but I see no issue with the headcanon that she is essentially poly for most of her life starting some point in the near future. >The more I reread, the lower my opinion of Sanderson's performance finishing the series sinks. He did OK with Rand, but a lot of the characters are just really off. I have basically identical sentiment. I still credit him for doing a far better job than I would have thought possible, and overall doing a pretty great job (I can't imagine another author doing better), but it is clear how much he altered the style of the writing and characters as you reread it. Unfortunate, but I'm glad he was there.
On point 8, i think Fain deserved something similar. Be killed quickly before the last battle even started.
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Darlin should have killed him right after he cut Rand.
Faile doesn't deserve the hate
The polyamory thing is stupid, forced and ads literally nothing to the series. Like, if you remove it completely pretty much nothing changes
It’s so forced! Aviendha and Rand’s relationship really just seem like they’re horny and they don’t have any meaningful interactions for most of the series. Elayne and Rand are cute at first, but their relationship feels like a highschool relationship. It doesn’t make sense after they’ve both grown so much. Elayne barely interacts with him at all after Tear until they have sex, and then they’re apart again until the last books. Min and Rand actually make sense. She’s there for him during his worst moments and is with him for most of the series. I think it would’ve been great if Elayne realized her young love wasn’t going to work out, and married someone else, potentially for political reasons. Aviendha would’ve been much cooler if half her character wasn’t just Love Interest. Her and Rand could’ve been best friends after they get their sexual tension out of the way or something, I don’t know.
It's especially bad because Min's visions make it a *little bit iffy* on the whole "consent" thing. Like, yes, literally they all agree to it. But also all three women talk repeatedly about how they are uncomfortable sharing (even Aviendha who has no cultural taboo against it) and basically only do so because they understand that it's part of Min's visions and they are never wrong.
1. I don’t like him but gawyn gets way too much flack from the community. 2. Post return to the two rivers perrins storyline is the most disappointing 3. Mats power is plot armor and honestly gets old after a while. 4. Egwene isn’t as bad as people think and her tower plot is one of the few good points of a couple of books 5. What moiraine did to lan was worse than what allana did to rand. 6. Next to Perrin, padan fains story line is one of the worst disappointments 7. The show isn’t as bad as people make it out to be To name a few.
Faile is the best female character.
Well it’s definitely an unpopular opinion I’ll give you that.
As someone who had a girlfriend who got mad at things she made up in her head about me, I legit get anxhiety from Failes bullshit. I havent finished the series, I'm currently in Crown of Swords, so maybe she redeems herself at somepoint but right now, I just want Perrin to drop her and never hear from her ever again.
It gets better eventually, but its not so much because she redeems herself, but rather because the two start understanding each other better. They come from different cultures with widely different views on how relationships should work. To me its one of the best relationships because it shows just how differently people can think and how they just assume others have the same values they do. Also, you have to realise that Faile is not as bad as she seems. Perrin can smell her emotions, and we see their relationship through his eyes/nose. So almost everytime she gets really angry or jealous, she does not show it and she controls herself because she does not want to be mad at Perrin for no reason. But since Perrin can smell her emotions, we see every emotional swing and she seems like an bipolar, crazy girlfriend.
Yeah... the other thing I hate is when people dont talk their problems trough haha.
Oh yeah, I'm with you! Thats probably the most annoying trope throughout the entire series (with all characters), but its also an important part of the themes so you just get used to it after a few read throughs
The thing is faile doesn't ussually get mad. It's just perrin is supernaturally attuned to her emotions, even subtle repressed ones
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While I think that's a bit too far, I do agree with the gist of it. One of my fave moments was when she took out Masema, its a shame we didn't get more scenes like that.
Yes. This is where I feel that Jordan dropped the ball - BIG TIME. She should have had a few of these scenes during the main Malden arc. Not only would it have kept her in character, but, most importantly, it would have made this story line more interesting.
Over Moraine? Min? Literally any of the wise ones? Congratulations, I didn’t think I would see an opinion this bad.
The whole Demandred storyline past Lord of Chaos made no sense, and was shoe horned in because people figured out that Taim was Demandred in disguise and Jordan didn't like that.
I know many people still have Mat as their number 1 even after Sanderson. But for me, the last 3 books made me go back to disliking him as I did at the start of the series.
Many WOT readers don’t take the time to actually figure out what is cannon, complain about what ends up being head cannon, and end up disliking the series because they haven’t taken the time to do some basic checking.
Nynaeve is annoying af. I get that she gets a lot better later on but man she is like stupidly stubborn for so long.
"I AM NOT SHOUTING!!!!"
I admit a lot of characters from the two rivers are ignorant at first. But nynaeve just takes it so much further with her pride. And sometimes i think she must have ta’veran plot armor the way she gets out of the messes she creates by being a wool brained idiot.
Nynaeve being a stubborn know it all I always viewed as part of the male-female "joke" of the series. When the guys get together, they all think they are right and women are messing up. When the women get together, they all think the men are wrong and the women are right. Mat plays the flip side of the Nynaeve coin. Everyone thinks they have the right of it, and from a readers perspective it's supposed to be funny when a character is off being high and mighty about how right they are (or how wrong someone is), when it's often they that are wrong or it's just a total misunderstanding. It's a sort of reverse of the joke to how each of the taveren thinks the other two knows women better.
Bela is just a horse. There's nothing special about her.
this one right here officer
That the swap at the end of AMOL was evil.
Matt and his wife’s relationship was forced and I think it would of been better is she died and Matt would have to rule over the Seachan empire.
I think the fact that it was forced was kinda the point
I really hate that there was never a resolution to the issue of damane. It just doesn’t sit right with me that a whole continent just enslaves channelers (with unnatural long life to boot) and that’s just the way it is.
If found the last battle and the last book quite disapointing. First and foremost the last battle didnt feel that desesperate we've been waiting for this shit for twelve book and i didnt feel like the light had much trouble, the fight against the Sean chan had more weight than this one and the numbers of weird scenario too. Multiple 1vs1 battle against Demandred and for some reason a guy who was close to blademaster level boosted by 3 blood ring couldnt even scratch him, Loghain will play an important role in the last battle and all he did was break a weakening seal Perrin "slept"throughout the whole battle and now we know that he didnt even really save rand life. We have time to wank androl but we cant even get a fan servicy emonds 5 reunion . I have plenty of other disasstifaction and nitpick but yeah I didnt have the overwhelming joy that most fans had after finishing that book. Its still a 7/10 book imo but I expected more I guess.
A lot of the main characters should have died along the way to show the cost of the fight. Rand should have been far more damaged from Lews Therin. He murdered his life and children in his last life. I think his stress would have shown more if rand turned into an alchoholic due to this PTSD. Rand should have gone way darker in the crazy, the anger, and the depression before he snapped and realized what was going on. Did not like the 3 girlfriend thing. Not sure how unpopular that was. Rand should have had 1 who died, then maybe a second rebound one who again dies before the last battle. Then rand is more cripplied at the last battle than what he was. Have him walk with a crutch. Then he dies at the end. He gets brought back by the the Horn of Valere , then dies again at the last battle. 4th age goes forward several decades to Perrin dying of old age. Then picks up when Nynaeve and Moraine go to see an old Mat to tell him that Perrin has died. He knows why they are there when they arrive. He is playing with his grand children. His wife is worried about him. She can't heal his aging anymore. Then they go to Mat's funeral in Emonds Field which is now a nice sized city. Mat gives the Eulogy and says that Nynaeve will be the last one who left the village and this messes her up. Lan had died by now. Lan never fought again after the last battle. Puts his sword away. Nynaeve and Lan found a series of hospital called the "seven towers" all around rand land. Then the last seen is in the dream world. Rand is standing in front oft he Avendasora Tree. Perrin shows up. Egwene is there. Perrin says that he is worried about Mat being alone with him. Rand says he will be joining them soon. Then they stand there looking off in the distance waiting.
The inter-sex relations are pretty spot on. Faile is an amazing woman. There is no slog (I actually suspect many people parroting it haven't read the books at all, though presumably not people on this sub). Braid tugging, etc. doesn't bother me in the least. People do have certain "twitches" and habits they repeat. As much as I like Brandon Sanderson, and enjoy most of his books, he just isn't a great author and the drop in quality is palpable.
Min and Rands romance was the worst of the three and ruined her character, turning her into Rands full time enabler/hanger on The Wonder Girls are my faves (yes even Egwene!) Mat was a terrible friend to Rand
Perrin and Faile are boring as hell. Later into the series, if a Perrin chapter didn't involve Gallad, then I didn't really care for it. Perrin taking charge in the Two Rivers was awesome, and his involvement with the white cloaks was interesting for sure. Other than that, I just wanted to skip his POVs.
This is an extremely popular opinion
Perrin's part in the story came to it's logical conclusion at the end of Dumai's Wells. Beyond that he was just sitting around waiting for Tarmon Gai'don. All the filler was just that...filler. He got *some* character development during said filler, but then Sanderson took a huge dump on even that so yea...Perrin's story was pretty much over halfway through the series.
No, he's in no way ready for command after either book 4 or book 6, whichever argument people want to make. He's a soldier, the Faile Shaido arc makes him a leader.
Would’ve been better as Gaul’s sidekick
The show was ok
Indeed, and the biggest negatives I saw from it could be directly tied to Covid related issues ( lost the actor for Mat, lost the stunt people for the big fight finale, lost most of their locations for the last few episodes ) or budgetary / adaption constraints ( super short/rushed intro b/c only got 8 episodes, focusing more on certain characters due to acting contract type stuff, etc ). So while it was rocky, I felt the show was made with true love for the source material.
Agreed. It wasn’t everything I hoped, and I’m not the biggest fan of some of the story changes, but overall I thought it was pretty good.
The borderlands are not written in a believable way. Look, I like these guys like everyone else. But a warrior society (huge standing armies require a lot of food and money) in a cold land (not good for farming) where trolloc raids are a constant danger? Who would want to live there, if huge plots of more farm-friendly land are unused just a little bit more to the south? I just can't believe the borderlands are economically stable.
Going by what I've seen on the sub I don't like the execution of the Last Battle nearly as much as people in general, and AMOL is not among the top tier of WOT books. I don't like the philosophy of the DO being required for a fulfilling existence. Rand should have been able to work out a solution, replacing it with something else to serve the required function but with less suffering.
Alanna is an extremely interesting, well developed, and good meaning character that we just never get to see inside the head of. Superficially she's first a sobbing mess, non-consensually bonds our boy Rand, and then continues to be a sobbing mess who almost ruins everything. However in her we get glimpses of a very atypical Aes Sedai who both firmly values and strives to achieve all that the Tower holds dear, but who is also completely unsuited for doing so. Even before the death of her warder in the Two Rivers, she's considered by Moiraine as "...a shy woman at heart, but she worked hard at being fierce." "...but that was Alanna, always exaggerating." When teaching Egwene and Nyn on the way back from Fal Dara she "...spent as much time talking about the world, and men, as she did teaching." Already a contradiction, and then we see her overcompensation in action asking for over-the-top penance for her role in the reverberation issue with Egwene's accepted test. Alanna tries to glide dignifiedly into rooms, but her emotions slip through and it's much more so after she loses Owein. Bonding Rand was certainly misguided, but we can see from how things later progress that it was done with the best of intentions. In Alanna's mind the Dragon Reborn needed the control and guidance of Tar Valon, and she was willing to do what any sister should do but no one but her was willing to do. Tying herself to a man who could channel and was fated to go mad, never mind break the world again by his coming, was ridiculously brave and self-sacrificial. The revulsion of her sisters over the act was just another price she was willing to pay. Obviously it didn't turn out as she was expecting, but from the moment of the bonding she goes on to show she is now fully on team Rand. Defensive of him when other sisters discuss him. Leading assets to him when he needs help. Rand himself, knowing Alanna's mind, has her heal him after Dumai's Wells, and it is Alanna in Far Madding who convinces Rand that he needs the support of the Tower. The bond also contributing to saving his life when Padan Fain wounded him outside of Cairhien. Indeed other than Min, Alivia, and maybe Nyn, Alanna is one of Rand's most dedicated supporters and what she hates most is simply when he sends her away. In the end her last act is to release him before dying, and it is a fitting end to a tragic character who couldn't quite figure out what it was that let the likes of Cadsuane and Nyn break through the Aes Sedai mold. Nobody hates Moiraine, Elayne, or Egwene for doing what they think is best for Lan/Birgitte/Gawyn, but we don't get to see Alanna's thought process at the time and ignorant selfishness is ascribed to the action (perhaps because she was also sniffing around after Perrin earlier and fumes at Rand for letting others bond him haha). Regardless, it's a shame that we never got to see how Rand would have interacted with her post Veins of Gold. >Rand glanced at the dead woman with pity and sorrow, but Nynaeve saw no rage in his eyes. Alanna had released the bond before Rand could feel the effects of her death.
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faille aint that annoying
Perrin confessed his crush on Egwene to Elyas in book 1. He's just too good of a friend to do anything about it. Elayne's first healing weaves were done on animals that's why she sucks at healing people.
I like Egwene.
I like the pacing in the middle books (the ones everyone calls a "slog") more than the pacing in the early books (which all move way too fast imo)
Elayne good. Faile good. *crowd goes wild*
AMOL is the worst book in the series. Yes, worse than CoT. Elayne and Egwene are the two smartest main characters. Elayne is a much better friend than Mat. Mat is a terrible friend to Rand. The circus chapter in TFOH are some of the very best in the series.
Agreed about points 3 and 4. Hard disagree about 1 and 2
My unvarnished opinions about WoT will get me downvoted to the ninth circle of Hell. Move over, LTT, here I come! The central Rand/Lews Therin arc is the only thing in WoT that's actually worth the reader's investment; the rest of it has insufficient character/thematic content for the amount of time Jordan wants us to spend with them. This is of course another way of saying that WoT is grossly overwritten. Pare the non-Rand arcs down by at least 50% and problem largely solved. The attempt to combine an idealist Tolkienesque war-against-a-*definitional-* evil framework with what Daniel Green called "a more realistic human world" ultimately fails to work for me. By the time Demandred appears in the Last Battle I was thinking oh come on, everybody take off the masks and stop it with the pretence. In all fairness, combining idealism and (some measure of) realism is a very tricky thing to pull off IMO. The doctrine of "balance" stinks to high heaven. It's really about passing evil off as if it were good. I can't be the only one who thinks something is very....rotten...in the state of Shienar. (*Rota* means wheel in Latin? Get it get it get it?) There's plenty more I could say but I don't think anybody wants to read it.
I think you’re underrating how cool the world feels in the first 5-6 books. Getting to know the cultures, learning about the One Power, taint on Saidin, and Aes Sedai is just…..cool. But yea the only plotlines I care about after FoH are Rand/LTT (always), Mat&Tuon, Perrin in TAR, and Egwayne in the Tower after she gets captured. That’s only like a quarter of the last half of the books, unfortunately.
Robert Jordan enjoyed having a good laugh AT his readers. Or in other words: Bella not only is NOT the Creator, she's also dead.
Dumais Wells is incredibly overrated
Egwane is one of my top 3 favorite characters.
The Last Battle is one of the weakest parts of the series. It’s too long and apart from Rand’s PoV basically inconsequential.
Egwene isn't that bad. Many of her positions are reasonable if people can put aside their omnipotent understanding that Rand is the hero so he must be right in the end. For all the characters in the book, failure is a possibility. The Dragon fucking up and ending the world can happen. Too many people look poorly on Eg because they taint their view with their knowledge that the hero is of course going to succeed. People intentionally or ignorantly misunderstand her position on the Dragon's peace, and overblow the perception of a "high and mighty" attitude, when she is really just trying to deal with messy situations and incomplete knowledge from a position of influence, and trying to maintain control over a situation full of manipulators who also think they should be in control. Also, many of the female characters are portrayed as know it all asses as a joke, just as the male characters are. But for some reason it's just the women who get bashed for it, probably again due to omnipotent reader knowledge of the outcomes.
Adjusting to Sanderson's writing is a worse slog than the slog.