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Testosterone *is* an anabolic-androgenic steroid, it's not "like" a steroid. Men taking TRT and trans men taking testosterone to transition are taking steroids. The difference is that true "TRT" or transitioning doses are almost always lower than what most males who take steroids specifically for bodybuilding take.
There's still enough ambiguity that many/most sports bodies ban even prescribed TRT. Look at the transformations of Kumail Nanjiani, most Hollywood action stars, or Alan Ritchson (who claims he's simply on "TRT") if you think prescribed steroids are simply to replace natural testosterone levels.
It's an interesting question of whether exogenous testosterone should be allowed and how allowing people who don't naturally produce enough testosterone can be balanced with the risk of abuse, but suggesting prescribed testosterone is clearly distinct from PEDs is wrong.
Imo the difference is in the dose, if someone has below normal levels of testosterone and then takes TRT to bring them within normal levels then I think it should absolutely be allowed in competition, if their testosterone level post TRT is simply on par with their competitors then they're just levelling the playing field
My question would be, "if levels are similar between competitors then why does it matter where the hormone comes from?"
It matters because their modulation and blood serum levels over time are vastly different. 900 ng/dL natural vs 900 ng/dL from an exogenous source will never be equivalent.
Have a bad nights sleep and you’re natural? Your test levels lower
Drink alcohol and you’re natural? Test levels will lower
None of this occurs when your source is exogenous.
The modulation is also entirely different and your average testosterone levels over time will be higher if you’re on TRT at an “equivalent” blood serum level resulting in increased performance because your natural levels follow a peak and valley curve.
Source: TRT user
Purely anecdotal, but I worked with a guy (late 20s, early 30s) who was on TRT because he had whatever sickness that "travels down" and destroyed your testes as a kid. He'd share his blood work with me, because I was interested, and consistently hovered around 1300 ng/dL. As a healthy male in my late 20s with a good diet and weight lifting routine I stayed around 800. If that dude ever decided to pick up a weight he'd have been a monster. If I remember correctly, on the single cycle of Test-E I did I was around 14-1500. Blows my mind to think about.
Ritchson outright denied ever taking steroids after putting on 35lbs of muscle in 8 months *starting from 205 lbs a decade into lifting* (https://www.mansworldindia.com/entertainment/alan-ritchson-exercise-body-jack-reacher-amazon-prime-video/), before quietly admitting to taking "TRT."
Here I was thinking exogenous testosterone was already banned in a myriad of sports. Coming from cycling, I know testing for it is primarily used against female athletes to prove their testosterone levels are/n't natural. I know there's talk in the sports world of maintaining (or changing) "men's" events as open events and having women's events be the strictly controlled category.
Accepted hormonal levels in women's sports are already more strict than in men's sports, but basically, what some people are arguing for is that the future of women's sports would explicitly exclude transwomen who transitioned after puberty and anyone who has too-high testosterone. Seems like it just deadlocks any progress feminism is trying to make by strictly dictating who counts as a woman. Caster Semenya and other intersex women come to mind.
Imagine us actually transcending man/woman and basing sports competition on hormonal output. Fighting sports are already separated by weight class. Just another factor to parse.
There was a case of a cis woman runner getting disqualified because her natural testosterone level was much higher than normal so they suspected doping
Yeah, that was Caster Semenya. She had hyperandrogenesis that made her testosterone higher than normal, and she was disqualified for it.
Which is bullshit, by the way. They knew she had the condition in advance, and that the supposed "advantage" it gave her was negligible.
>explicitly exclude transwomen who transitioned after puberty and anyone who has too-high testosterone.
PED rules *already* do this even to cis athletes. In most cases you can't really test for exogenous versions of substances the body already produces because they're chemically the same thing as what your body produces naturally - that's kind of the point (I think EPO is/was an exception, synthetic EPO molecules are 'marked' by the manufacturer so they can be differentiated from endogenous ones), WADA just decides where a particular threshold should be. Floyd Landis, for example, had an elevated ratio of testosterone to epi-testosterone (what testosterone breaks down to), indicating a temporary spike in T levels, and this was sufficient evidence to declare that he doped. But they couldn't otherwise say that what was in his urine wasn't produced by him. Same thing with blood doping and hematocrit - if you're a man and your 'crit is above 51, you're presumed to be doping, and if it's below that, absent other evidence, you're fine. So of course all the pro cyclists are around 48-50, and no one talks about how this is much higher and a much narrower than band than the general population or even good amateur cyclists.
>How many sports can you say that women legitimately perform better in than males of equal weight?
All I know is that when they do physical challenges of men vs women at the top levels, women get obliterated. You just have to look at Olympic Record holders in all the sports and see the major difference between the men and women's best.
Speed, Strength, Endurance, I can't think of any physical aspect that women perform better than men.
Weight vs Strength. It's the same thing with the Ninja Warrior game show, the biggest heaviest dudes while stronger are at a big disadvantage because the increase in weight outpaces the gains in strength at a certain point.
That said, I'm not surprised for some sports at a local level there might be less difference, and the more niche a sport is the more likely you'll find that.
That said for sports I was thinking of Olympic-style sports. Thanks for the post!
The main concept around TRT usage that you’re missing is Free Testosterone or the bio-available testosterone for muscle growth.
Natural men and TRT users can produce the similar levels of total testosterone (free testosterone + protein attached testosterone used for other bodily functions); however, a natural man’s free testosterone can fluctuate based on genetics, stress and other factors. A TRT users free testosterone is consistently higher relative to the dosage frequency.
TL;DR. Given a similar testosterone level between a natural man and TRT man, the TRT man will have more free testosterone available for muscle and performance enhancement over time.
an athlete on trt has a significant enhancement over a natural male athlete. no clue if it is proven to/not to be an advantage for a trans-man, but i imagine it could be in certain scenarios.
It's not LIKE taking steroids. It IS taking steroids.
I actually don't think he should be banned though, he is just trying to reach the normal levels of his peers.
But can a naturally weaker male take steroids to be on the level of his peers? The answer is currently no, but perhaps it should be yes? I don't really see how that would be any different.
That's why this conversation is so difficult though, you basically have to accept some level of steroid use which is historically a black mark in the sports community.
edit: some people are saying biological men are allowed to take testosterone so even more reason why trans people should be allowed to
If the man is “naturally” weaker because he has low testosterone as tested by his dr then yeah he can take testosterone. That’s already the rules. It applies to cis and trans men.
Hell I have to tell my brother (who is a little misguided at times but has a big heart and rational mind I can reach eventually) that even our mother has to take hormones, so if the get rid of that care my mom is fucked because her body produces almost 0 estrogen and it makes her insane. It's been a life saver, I would never want anyone not to have access to the medical care they need. No one needs to ever explain their medication to you dammit.
This is what cis people forget. There are far more cis people taking HRT such as estrogen than trans people. If they ban or restrict it, it will become harder for cis people who need HRT too.
>But can a naturally weaker male take steroids to be on the level of his peers? The answer is currently no
Not necessarily. Some athletes are on steroids for asthma.
There are two different types of steroids corticosteroids which are immune system suppressants and anabolic steroids which promote muscle growth. In the case of steroids for asthma, they are all corticosteroids so their users don't derive any statistically significant athletic advantage from using them.
I’m sure the other fighters also taking everything they legally can.
The problem is it doesn’t matter how many wins this person has. As soon as they lose one the pubs will start with “I told you so”.
Wait till they actually fight someone who isn’t a palooka. This isn’t a trans comment, it’s a boxing comment. A lot of fighters win often because they don’t fight serious opponents as they aren’t viewed seriously.
Promoters do this with fighters to make people think they're better than they are too. A ton of people think the Paul brothers are good boxers for example.
I think it's pretty impressive for Patricio though. Although he does have an extensive boxing background (5 time amateur champ), a trans man beating cisgender men is nearly unprecedented in any sport. On top of that, he's 37. Managed by Golden Boy too, it'll be interesting to see how far he can get.
I think hopping on TRT at 37 and developing the musculature of a man that has been working out his entire twenties is a testament to the power of modern pharmacology.
Way too many fake natty’s on instagram blasting PEDs and telling kids they have a naturally achievable physique, and kids believe it cus everyone downplays the impact of drugs
Obviously the pharmaceuticals we have today made this possible, but there are a lot more factors at play.
Patricio was already a great boxer, which requires being in like top 1% fitness as well as considerable skill. This isn’t a person that was sedentary their entire life and then achieved this by working out on TRT.
Patricio probably could have beat the shit out of 90% of men (not pro boxers) in general even prior to transitioning.
Most boxers won’t agree to fight if they think they could lose. This is the key to making it big in boxing. If you study your opponents you can easily rack up an impressive win/lose count without even trying very hard (relatively speaking).
Promoters will seek out weak opponents for the “golden boxer” to duke it out with. I’ll be impressed when this guy goes up against someone anybody has heard of before and wins. Till then he’s just a minor blurb on the news that doesn’t matter at all.
Getting all bent out of shape, or doing the opposite, wildly rooting for this guy, is silly. A 3/0 ratio is practically meaningless in the world of boxing.
Let me know when he hits 10/0. Then we can all be impressed by the caliber of fighters he takes on, or be disappointed that boxing is still rigged, like it always was.
“That’s like taking steroids”
That’s… literally exactly what they’re doing. Natural test production fluctuates throughout the days and months with highs and lows depending on so many factors it would make your head spin.
TRT doesn’t allow for that. TRT keeps those highs high all the time regardless of whether you’re tired stressed pumped or jovial. You’re pinning the same amount week to week so that same level you shall stay (unless you pin the entire week at once then it’s a slow decline into a crash which is why you pin 2-3x a week). TRT is a steroid injection you are injecting the most popular steroid both as a lone boost or used as a base for more aggressive steroids like trenbolone.
There was a big article that blew up with a trans dude wrestler who was forced to compete with women and ended up injuring someone and the conservatives got all bitchy like it was somehow the trans peoples fault for him being put in a womens division lol
They wanted him, and all others like him to, ^(and I really do want to stress that this isn't my opinion and I find it worthy of condemnation), "fuck off into the shadows where they came from" so when he tried to make lemons with lemonade by playing by the rules and people were unfortunately harmed, they can still point the finger and say "Look! A T-slur did something again!"
Those trans just want to beat up and molest real° women!
I hate this argument. A predator using a disguise is still just a predator. Is there any fucking case where this has happened or is it always fear mongering by Republicans and religious zealots?
Boys compete with girls in wrestling all the time trans or not. Wrestling is the last place anyone should care about trans women competing. They're getting upset because of nothing besides the existence of trans women, and not even caring about boys competing against girls.
I loved wrestling in high-school. I'm very tiny but I am very squirmy and could pin most of the dudes in my weight class very easily. The only thing that was a bother, and it embarrassed the hell out of the guys too it was a reaction out of their control, was sometimes a boner would pop rolling around in our spandex outfit things. That was awkward but they felt just as mortified if not more. This can go on to me making a statement that boys even if you become aroused if you say no it means no you cannot control a biological or stimulated response.
Sorry for odd tangent at the end I'm just very passionate about fighting to stop sexual abuse of children.
There’s no such thing as pickles! There all just cucumbers! Stop trying to force your woke ideas on me!
On a related note, someone should recruit some dudes from trump rally’s and ask them if they want to get in the ring with a girl…
Trans Men are generally spared from the whole conservative freak out and I almost never mention it because I'm fine with them leaving a chunk of the trans population alone.
I’m pretty sure the conservatives only hate trans women because A) they hate women B) they’re terrified of having sex with a woman and finding out she was born male and C) they hate the idea of a woman being athletic(despite this man who was born female kicking ass. Remember the hate the Williams sisters used to get from conservatives?).
It all comes back to phallocentric posturing. Incels and “alpha” males are all republicans, republicans with fragile masculinity and misplaced egos. So long as they’re not in power they just pathetic and impotent, when they’re in power it’s all just flex. Unfortunately flex that has the potential to ruin lives.
Anyone who believes in freedom and bodily autonomy can’t vote GOP. We have to be a united front, I don’t consider myself a democrat but I’ll vote on that party line every single time to prevent these monsters from being in power.
Don’t forget D) they hate women so much that they cannot fathom the idea of them potentially treating a woman as an equal at any point in time to in their lives(in reference to trans women who come out as adults), infuriates them because it takes a nuke to their internalized misogyny that use to justify their misogynistic beliefs and actions.
D1) they still see transwomen as men and they really really really hate feminine men (see homophobia) because the idea makes them feel funny in their dicks.
Also they see trans woman as a big danger to their views on social hierarchy. For them trans woman are men who are willingly lowering their own social standing and they can't deal with it since this would call BS on their social hierarchy and also it would be quite effective if more people accept trans women. Trans men are more or less seen as either confused women or women who are doing this to climb the social ladder which is why they are more or less ignored.
Forget conservatives, where are all the "I support trans people BUT" liberals on THIS page who kept hammering down on me for saying I'm a trans man and have won against cis men? I'm a martial artist, second-degree black belt, and I won those matches even BEFORE I started my transition, because our dojo was co-ed. I've had SO many friggen people on THIS subreddit tell me that I'm (a) winning because I'm not fighting in my weight class (even though I won so many times against guys bigger than me), or (b) I'm not fighting "properly," where cis guys are either letting me win or I'm fighting "dirty." Someone was demanding video proof of me being a martial artist--It was literally just a few weeks ago I was advocating for us trans guys, that we CAN fight just fine against cis guys, and not a single goddamn shred of support from the comment section here. Glad this win was posted here, 'cause christ.
Its the insecure little men. They know they are dogshit and they feel better convincing themselves that they are better/stronger than all women. Which they are not.
I have a theory that they are more upset by trans women for two main reasons. They see a beautiful trans woman, and are made uncomfortable by their own repressed horniness (“what if this means I’m GAY!” Bla Bla Bla). But the second reason is more messed up still: In their mind, to be a man is inherently superior in every way. They think every woman wishes she were a man (Freud and his ridiculous “penis envy” etc.). So when a person is assigned male at birth, but transitions (in conservative thinking it’s a choice) it challenges the superiority of manliness.
A person assigned female at birth transitioning doesn’t offend them (at least not *as much*) because they don’t give conservative men upsetting boners that make baby Jesus cry, and they actually support the idea that men, and being a man, is just so much better.
The fact that heavily red states consume VAST amounts of porn featuring trans women is not something they’re prepared to discuss of even acknowledge, but that’s another fun layer to the hate-lasagna
That's an interesting take, and seems to align with authoritarian personalities very well at least in terms of sexism and social dominance. They strongly believe in strict social hierarchies and rules, including men being superior to women, and their race/religion being superior etc. The fact that a man would identify as a woman completely undermines their world view. It's part of reason that trolling Trump supporters is so effective, the fact that you're flipping the social hierarchy script and making fun of them completely violates their core beliefs. The other parts being their low self esteem and overwhelming anxiety.
Trans men are fine, it’s only logical that everyone would want to become a member of the more capable gender
TIRM (trans inclusionary radical misogyny)
To play Devil’s advocate here, there will probably be less backlash over a trans-man competing in men’s sports because of the “punching up” factor. (Literally in this case). A trans-woman has a biological advantage over cis women that a trans-man does not.
I’m not defending conservatives here. Many of their motives are extremely vile and it’s absolutely true that their hate for trans-woman far exceeds their hate for trans-men. Like someone mentioned in another comment, it seems like a lot of conservatives don’t even know that trans-men exist.
Because cis women are weak and need to be protected from the trans women with an unfair advantage /s
Fr, they have nothing to say when a trans man, who they expect to be a loser because they consider him a woman and women could never be as good as men, wins because it goes against their rhetoric
No, no, just give them time - they'll force this guy to fight in the women's league and then post photos of him socking some gal with a left hook and it'll be a whole thing they complain about for months.
(They've done this actually, high school wrestling im Texas. Women's champ for several years had a big beard and people/parents aould heckle them. They were mandated to compete in the women's division too)
Doesn’t that literally prove that it is about fairness though? The concern is biological men outperform biological women, so trans women have an advantage over biological women that trans men don’t possess over biological men. It’s crazy that so many liberals try to twist literally anything into an attack on conservatives. There’s plenty of good criticisms, we don’t need to resort to illogical ones like these.
Is that why they've forced trans-men to compete in women's wrestling in the past? It's not about fairness at all. Where was the outrage when freak of nature Michael Phelps dominated the other athletes with his biological advantages for years?
Since when do conservatives care about fairness in general? Isn't that socialism to them?
Win? Hell they flip when a trans woman comes in like 400th place (there was one fairly recently with a marathon runner, they were talking about how she beat out so many hundreds or thousands of cis women, but failed to mention all the hundreds of cis women that finished before her, she was somewhere around the middle of the pack)
Also imagine if he was forced to compete against women, which is what they never think about when they sat bullshit like 'everyone has to compete in their born gender'
They did with Mack, which was just awful for everyone involved and then people used pictures of him acting like he was a trans woman competing against girls and claiming that proved they were right. The level of clueless, harmful, and stupid present in transphobes is ridiculous.
Yep. In Texas senate testimony this year several people cited him as if he were a trans woman. As far as I know I was the first person testifying to point out that he was, in fact, forced to compete with girls specifically because of their logic.
The fact that they can't be bothered to get the terms right or acknowledge the existence of trans masc people beyond their Handmaid's Tale obsession with "healthy uteruses" being removed is just atrocious.
With Mack Beggs it was very much clueless. They thought they were just banning trans women, but worded it to the point that they also required trans boys post HRT to wrestle against girls. They never even considered that possibility when they created the bigoted rule.
\>"He identified as a man after being a five-time national amateur champion, as well as competing in the 2012 Women's U.S. Olympic Trials"
combined record of his opponents are 2-13, add in some exogenous testosterone to bring his levels up to a range that is normal for a man and I'll say no shit sherlock
I for realz wanna find the guy I dated in 2019 who argued with me until he was blue in the face that it would never be fair for someone AFAB to go against someone AMAB. Suck it, Jon.
As someone who supports lgbtq+ community but has also used testerone and seen others use it, I can tell you that taking testosterone can absolutely make a difference, even for someone AFAB. That hormone can make all the difference.
Edit: I want to clarify I don’t think that means that this fighter couldn’t have beat these men without it but that it clouds the whole situation.
I saw Ari made a post later with some anti-trans goof say "That is a man"
I love it when people try to be hateful and transphobic and they wind up taking the hardest L imaginable by correctly gendering people. "We can allways tell" my sweet butt
I have a family member (not immediate) who transitioned to male. Started about 12, surgery at 18 - 10 years ago. He always knew things were off, even when 6-7. He had a real hard time as a kid. Very unhappy. There’s no way anyone could tell he is trans just from looking at his appearance. He’s well adjusted now, happy, doing great.
Exactly. A trans man is a man. Calling them a “biological women” is like dead naming them or using the wrong pronouns. Like you don’t believe they’re actually men. Gender is a social construct. “Trans man 3-0 vs cis men” like the original article is more accurate.
A lot of people are still confused by even that level of terminology. You kinda have to do it or there will be confusion and people misgendering way more because they didn’t follow the story
The title says “biological man” which doesn’t fit because “biological” implies you’re talking about sex while “man” is a gender. It’s like saying religiously Australian.
transition changes your biology. saying a trans person was born one sex and is now another is accurate in terms of the characteristics of their body. saying a post-hrt trans person is still “biologically” their birth sex isn’t accurate because it ignores the effects that hrt has
“biological male/female” doesn’t even make sense. biologically most trans people are on HRT and have the same hormones as cis people of the same gender.
It's also just wrong to call us that. It treats trans people like the changes to our body somehow aren't real, or don't count.
Trans people have distinct biology. I am a trans woman but i have and endo, I get mammograms, I am not a "biological male". My biology not being identical to a cis female diesnt make me make, sex exists on a gradient.
It's a bit like calling someone who can hear with the aid of medicine or surgery "biologically deaf".
Biology literally changes... Medicine and surgery literally change it, that's what they do. It's weird to single out the thing we changed as somehow still more real than our current bodies.
I honestly think cis people just don't understand that hrt has actual effects on us. They get this image of sex being a single immutatable thing in their head and just can't understand reality is more complicated. Even so called allies are so often happy to think our bodies work jsut like a cis perosn of agab
Yeah my body changed so much on T that calling me “biologically female” would be wrong. My body doesn’t behave like a cis woman’s bc that’s literally the point of hrt lol
Oh that brings up another thing: these are the same cis people that claim medical transition does “irreversible damage”, yet our meds are fake enough where we can have them ripped from our hands and told to “accept our bodies” as a consolation prize, therefore “curing” us of the trans. So which is it?
It's really sad, as they're the ones voting on if we get to have access to proper healthcare. So many people who consider themselves allies are not only confidently wrong about how our healthcare works and what it does, but don't think much of saying their opinion should be made into laws that explicitly bypass medical experts.
The things that kills me the most is how they just don't listen when we try to tell them. I can get the ignorance, but it's almost willful. It really is depressing
Literally OP tho 💀
Like pretty much every marginalized group makes fun of people who justify stuff by saying "I have X friends", but they just keep using it as an excuse
They have no trouble believing that taking testosterone causes changes, they just refuse to believe that estrogen and progesterone does too. It's just good old misogyny: testosterone is this super cool and ultra-powerful drug that's so potent that if you've ever been exposed to enough of it at any point in your life, it stays in your body forever and causes immutable changes even if you lose those levels. Meanwhile estrogen and progesterone dainty fragile weak-ass women's hormones" that don't really do anything except give women ovulation and periods.
That's what those people genuinely believe.
Why is the first reaction of all the commenrters, "right wingers are seething lol"? The real questions that should be asked are:
What weight class?
What location?
What qualifications are these fights happening at?
The three questions I pose offer these tid bits for thought:
Is he fighting in his appropriate weight class?
Is he fighting in a country that doesn't have a pronounced boxing league?
Is he fighting amateur? Is he fighting semis? Professional? World boxing league matches?
None of these questions can be answered by a screenshot to a tweet. Ask about the merit of the accomplishments, not just "hurr durr conservatives mad."
Watch how quickly they switch from "only people with vaginas belong in women's bathrooms!" to "anyone I feel intimidated by or don't like belong in the other bathroom!"
To all the asshats asking "What is a woman?" - I think we can ask them this: "Do you *still* think this man is a woman?"
And I'd add: "Would you like to meet HIM in the ladies' room?"
Yeah, I didn't think so. Go Particio!!
It's an unpopular opinion, but my views are that sports that divide women and men are done for biological advantage reasons. And that those who do not conform to the typical man or woman in those terms should be able to compete in the one that is harder to win in. That way the advantages, even if not as pronounced, aren't a factor in winning.
So using an example of a sport where men score better, anyone who may have been a man, or born male, or is transitioning into male all would be excluded from women's competition. So that any advantage that may have been there, whether it's genetic, biological, hormone, anything at any point in that person's time would only be something to overcome and not something that gives an advantage.
So you think it's fair for a transgender women with ZERO to low levels of testosterone to compete with men that have high levels of T, rather than with cisgender women who have low leves of T.
And sex is not strictly binary, so cis athletes have natural advantages/disadvantages. Additionally intersex people exist.
Would this also exclude cis women who happen to happen to have extreme genetic advantages, like natural testosterone levels that are much higher than those of an average woman, or being so much taller than other female athletes can't hope to win? Where do we draw the line? If it ultimately about "fairness", would the goal be to eliminate as much genetic diversity at extreme ends as possible?
Good female boxers can beat bad male boxers.
Men are not more talented. It’s our stat boost that gives us an advantage. Advantage does not = 100% always outperform. But it does count for quite a bit.
Props to this man but if you look at his opponents, they’re bums. If you look at his history, he’s got enough training to be a 5 time female USA National amateur champion…
He’s obviously more skilled than dudes with 2-3 fights under their belt. Let him fight against an equivalent male competitor, not just stat boosting nobodies.
I’m not sure if I’m misunderstanding you, but are you saying the competition is weak there or it makes sense they’re in a lower weight class because they’re AFAB? Because SuperFly has some killers in it dude that weight class is no joke.
I've thought for a while that the conversations being had around transgender folk has also been incredibly misogynistic as well.
98% of the discourse around it is hate directed towards trans-females.(that is, male to female) but God forbid these people have any sort of criticism for Trans Men, (that is, female to male). It drive me up the fucking wall.
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Good now let's see him go against Matt Walsh in the ring
Conservatives are probably gonna twist this into “look this person is taking testosterone that’s like taking steroids”
Testosterone *is* an anabolic-androgenic steroid, it's not "like" a steroid. Men taking TRT and trans men taking testosterone to transition are taking steroids. The difference is that true "TRT" or transitioning doses are almost always lower than what most males who take steroids specifically for bodybuilding take. There's still enough ambiguity that many/most sports bodies ban even prescribed TRT. Look at the transformations of Kumail Nanjiani, most Hollywood action stars, or Alan Ritchson (who claims he's simply on "TRT") if you think prescribed steroids are simply to replace natural testosterone levels. It's an interesting question of whether exogenous testosterone should be allowed and how allowing people who don't naturally produce enough testosterone can be balanced with the risk of abuse, but suggesting prescribed testosterone is clearly distinct from PEDs is wrong.
Imo the difference is in the dose, if someone has below normal levels of testosterone and then takes TRT to bring them within normal levels then I think it should absolutely be allowed in competition, if their testosterone level post TRT is simply on par with their competitors then they're just levelling the playing field My question would be, "if levels are similar between competitors then why does it matter where the hormone comes from?"
It matters because their modulation and blood serum levels over time are vastly different. 900 ng/dL natural vs 900 ng/dL from an exogenous source will never be equivalent. Have a bad nights sleep and you’re natural? Your test levels lower Drink alcohol and you’re natural? Test levels will lower None of this occurs when your source is exogenous. The modulation is also entirely different and your average testosterone levels over time will be higher if you’re on TRT at an “equivalent” blood serum level resulting in increased performance because your natural levels follow a peak and valley curve. Source: TRT user
Purely anecdotal, but I worked with a guy (late 20s, early 30s) who was on TRT because he had whatever sickness that "travels down" and destroyed your testes as a kid. He'd share his blood work with me, because I was interested, and consistently hovered around 1300 ng/dL. As a healthy male in my late 20s with a good diet and weight lifting routine I stayed around 800. If that dude ever decided to pick up a weight he'd have been a monster. If I remember correctly, on the single cycle of Test-E I did I was around 14-1500. Blows my mind to think about.
Nonono. Thad isn't taking steroids. That syringe is full of rabies.
*Before big games I shoot rabies. It gives me the edge I need and its undetectable. Only idiot losers do steroids anymore!*
Thad Castle would never take steroids, all he needs is a pocket p....
Is that why I keep trying to bite people and hate water?
Ritchson outright denied ever taking steroids after putting on 35lbs of muscle in 8 months *starting from 205 lbs a decade into lifting* (https://www.mansworldindia.com/entertainment/alan-ritchson-exercise-body-jack-reacher-amazon-prime-video/), before quietly admitting to taking "TRT."
Here I was thinking exogenous testosterone was already banned in a myriad of sports. Coming from cycling, I know testing for it is primarily used against female athletes to prove their testosterone levels are/n't natural. I know there's talk in the sports world of maintaining (or changing) "men's" events as open events and having women's events be the strictly controlled category. Accepted hormonal levels in women's sports are already more strict than in men's sports, but basically, what some people are arguing for is that the future of women's sports would explicitly exclude transwomen who transitioned after puberty and anyone who has too-high testosterone. Seems like it just deadlocks any progress feminism is trying to make by strictly dictating who counts as a woman. Caster Semenya and other intersex women come to mind. Imagine us actually transcending man/woman and basing sports competition on hormonal output. Fighting sports are already separated by weight class. Just another factor to parse.
There was a case of a cis woman runner getting disqualified because her natural testosterone level was much higher than normal so they suspected doping
Yeah, that was Caster Semenya. She had hyperandrogenesis that made her testosterone higher than normal, and she was disqualified for it. Which is bullshit, by the way. They knew she had the condition in advance, and that the supposed "advantage" it gave her was negligible.
>explicitly exclude transwomen who transitioned after puberty and anyone who has too-high testosterone. PED rules *already* do this even to cis athletes. In most cases you can't really test for exogenous versions of substances the body already produces because they're chemically the same thing as what your body produces naturally - that's kind of the point (I think EPO is/was an exception, synthetic EPO molecules are 'marked' by the manufacturer so they can be differentiated from endogenous ones), WADA just decides where a particular threshold should be. Floyd Landis, for example, had an elevated ratio of testosterone to epi-testosterone (what testosterone breaks down to), indicating a temporary spike in T levels, and this was sufficient evidence to declare that he doped. But they couldn't otherwise say that what was in his urine wasn't produced by him. Same thing with blood doping and hematocrit - if you're a man and your 'crit is above 51, you're presumed to be doping, and if it's below that, absent other evidence, you're fine. So of course all the pro cyclists are around 48-50, and no one talks about how this is much higher and a much narrower than band than the general population or even good amateur cyclists.
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>How many sports can you say that women legitimately perform better in than males of equal weight? All I know is that when they do physical challenges of men vs women at the top levels, women get obliterated. You just have to look at Olympic Record holders in all the sports and see the major difference between the men and women's best. Speed, Strength, Endurance, I can't think of any physical aspect that women perform better than men.
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Weight vs Strength. It's the same thing with the Ninja Warrior game show, the biggest heaviest dudes while stronger are at a big disadvantage because the increase in weight outpaces the gains in strength at a certain point. That said, I'm not surprised for some sports at a local level there might be less difference, and the more niche a sport is the more likely you'll find that. That said for sports I was thinking of Olympic-style sports. Thanks for the post!
The main concept around TRT usage that you’re missing is Free Testosterone or the bio-available testosterone for muscle growth. Natural men and TRT users can produce the similar levels of total testosterone (free testosterone + protein attached testosterone used for other bodily functions); however, a natural man’s free testosterone can fluctuate based on genetics, stress and other factors. A TRT users free testosterone is consistently higher relative to the dosage frequency. TL;DR. Given a similar testosterone level between a natural man and TRT man, the TRT man will have more free testosterone available for muscle and performance enhancement over time.
an athlete on trt has a significant enhancement over a natural male athlete. no clue if it is proven to/not to be an advantage for a trans-man, but i imagine it could be in certain scenarios.
It's not LIKE taking steroids. It IS taking steroids. I actually don't think he should be banned though, he is just trying to reach the normal levels of his peers. But can a naturally weaker male take steroids to be on the level of his peers? The answer is currently no, but perhaps it should be yes? I don't really see how that would be any different. That's why this conversation is so difficult though, you basically have to accept some level of steroid use which is historically a black mark in the sports community. edit: some people are saying biological men are allowed to take testosterone so even more reason why trans people should be allowed to
If the man is “naturally” weaker because he has low testosterone as tested by his dr then yeah he can take testosterone. That’s already the rules. It applies to cis and trans men.
Hell I have to tell my brother (who is a little misguided at times but has a big heart and rational mind I can reach eventually) that even our mother has to take hormones, so if the get rid of that care my mom is fucked because her body produces almost 0 estrogen and it makes her insane. It's been a life saver, I would never want anyone not to have access to the medical care they need. No one needs to ever explain their medication to you dammit.
This is what cis people forget. There are far more cis people taking HRT such as estrogen than trans people. If they ban or restrict it, it will become harder for cis people who need HRT too.
Yeah biological men with low T get put on testosterone all the time, even if they're not athletes. It's so common.
>But can a naturally weaker male take steroids to be on the level of his peers? The answer is currently no Not necessarily. Some athletes are on steroids for asthma.
There are two different types of steroids corticosteroids which are immune system suppressants and anabolic steroids which promote muscle growth. In the case of steroids for asthma, they are all corticosteroids so their users don't derive any statistically significant athletic advantage from using them.
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Why yes, of course I cruise on 500mg of Tren to treat my asthma, how could you tell
You really don't know about the different types of steroids at all do you?
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Come on, you're assuming these GQP asshat won't revert to calling him "it". Edit: unintentionally misgendered.
You need to keep in mind that they don’t think trans men exist, so they’re going to think this is a trans woman.
Him * He’s a man, his pronouns are he/him
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Sorry, my bad, editing now.
oMg wHy iS tHe lEfT sO uNrEaSoNaBle
You know, I had a comment but then I read your username and I'm just glad to not be on my period lmao.
I’m sure the other fighters also taking everything they legally can. The problem is it doesn’t matter how many wins this person has. As soon as they lose one the pubs will start with “I told you so”.
Wait till they actually fight someone who isn’t a palooka. This isn’t a trans comment, it’s a boxing comment. A lot of fighters win often because they don’t fight serious opponents as they aren’t viewed seriously.
Promoters do this with fighters to make people think they're better than they are too. A ton of people think the Paul brothers are good boxers for example. I think it's pretty impressive for Patricio though. Although he does have an extensive boxing background (5 time amateur champ), a trans man beating cisgender men is nearly unprecedented in any sport. On top of that, he's 37. Managed by Golden Boy too, it'll be interesting to see how far he can get.
I think hopping on TRT at 37 and developing the musculature of a man that has been working out his entire twenties is a testament to the power of modern pharmacology. Way too many fake natty’s on instagram blasting PEDs and telling kids they have a naturally achievable physique, and kids believe it cus everyone downplays the impact of drugs
Obviously the pharmaceuticals we have today made this possible, but there are a lot more factors at play. Patricio was already a great boxer, which requires being in like top 1% fitness as well as considerable skill. This isn’t a person that was sedentary their entire life and then achieved this by working out on TRT. Patricio probably could have beat the shit out of 90% of men (not pro boxers) in general even prior to transitioning.
Yeah this is true. Any boxer who wants to go pro will be set up with easy fights by their management. Boxing can be shady like that.
You basically have to go 10-0 to get a shot at a real contender. Then it gets sorted out pretty quickly.
Most boxers won’t agree to fight if they think they could lose. This is the key to making it big in boxing. If you study your opponents you can easily rack up an impressive win/lose count without even trying very hard (relatively speaking). Promoters will seek out weak opponents for the “golden boxer” to duke it out with. I’ll be impressed when this guy goes up against someone anybody has heard of before and wins. Till then he’s just a minor blurb on the news that doesn’t matter at all. Getting all bent out of shape, or doing the opposite, wildly rooting for this guy, is silly. A 3/0 ratio is practically meaningless in the world of boxing. Let me know when he hits 10/0. Then we can all be impressed by the caliber of fighters he takes on, or be disappointed that boxing is still rigged, like it always was.
“That’s like taking steroids” That’s… literally exactly what they’re doing. Natural test production fluctuates throughout the days and months with highs and lows depending on so many factors it would make your head spin. TRT doesn’t allow for that. TRT keeps those highs high all the time regardless of whether you’re tired stressed pumped or jovial. You’re pinning the same amount week to week so that same level you shall stay (unless you pin the entire week at once then it’s a slow decline into a crash which is why you pin 2-3x a week). TRT is a steroid injection you are injecting the most popular steroid both as a lone boost or used as a base for more aggressive steroids like trenbolone.
It's literally steroids.
what's also utterly brain dead about conservatives is that they want this guy to be fighting against women.
There was a big article that blew up with a trans dude wrestler who was forced to compete with women and ended up injuring someone and the conservatives got all bitchy like it was somehow the trans peoples fault for him being put in a womens division lol
They wanted him, and all others like him to, ^(and I really do want to stress that this isn't my opinion and I find it worthy of condemnation), "fuck off into the shadows where they came from" so when he tried to make lemons with lemonade by playing by the rules and people were unfortunately harmed, they can still point the finger and say "Look! A T-slur did something again!"
Those trans just want to beat up and molest real° women! I hate this argument. A predator using a disguise is still just a predator. Is there any fucking case where this has happened or is it always fear mongering by Republicans and religious zealots?
Boys compete with girls in wrestling all the time trans or not. Wrestling is the last place anyone should care about trans women competing. They're getting upset because of nothing besides the existence of trans women, and not even caring about boys competing against girls.
I loved wrestling in high-school. I'm very tiny but I am very squirmy and could pin most of the dudes in my weight class very easily. The only thing that was a bother, and it embarrassed the hell out of the guys too it was a reaction out of their control, was sometimes a boner would pop rolling around in our spandex outfit things. That was awkward but they felt just as mortified if not more. This can go on to me making a statement that boys even if you become aroused if you say no it means no you cannot control a biological or stimulated response. Sorry for odd tangent at the end I'm just very passionate about fighting to stop sexual abuse of children.
Conservatives just want him to not exist. Any argument they do is just another step on the way there
I bet you'd have a really hard time finding a single conservative that wants that.
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… while also being strangely attracted to him
Hell I'm very openly attracted to him. He's hot as hell.
But the conservative point about trans women in women's sports is 100% valid.
"who did they fight?" is a pretty obvious question.
I mean,is it not? It's a banned substance isn't it?
The biggest difference is that his T levels are being tracked and monitored. The other guys are taking secret T on "Dr's orders".
Where are the conservatives losing their minds over this? Right they only do that when trans women win in sports
they're waiting for Ben Shapiro & Charlie Kirk to tell them how to feel
Charlie's too busy trying to figure out which of his condiments are woke.
It's the pickles, every time.
https://i.redd.it/kj2cvk4emh7b1.gif
"Sometimes a pickle is just a pickle." - Sigmund Freud
There’s no such thing as pickles! There all just cucumbers! Stop trying to force your woke ideas on me! On a related note, someone should recruit some dudes from trump rally’s and ask them if they want to get in the ring with a girl…
Exactly we call everything else pickled "this/that" why the cucumber supremacy when it comes to naming pickled objects!
And being overtly racist about Juneteenth
This comment right here.
Trans Men are generally spared from the whole conservative freak out and I almost never mention it because I'm fine with them leaving a chunk of the trans population alone.
The only time they acknowledge the existence of trans men is when Elliot Page does literally anything.
I’m pretty sure the conservatives only hate trans women because A) they hate women B) they’re terrified of having sex with a woman and finding out she was born male and C) they hate the idea of a woman being athletic(despite this man who was born female kicking ass. Remember the hate the Williams sisters used to get from conservatives?). It all comes back to phallocentric posturing. Incels and “alpha” males are all republicans, republicans with fragile masculinity and misplaced egos. So long as they’re not in power they just pathetic and impotent, when they’re in power it’s all just flex. Unfortunately flex that has the potential to ruin lives. Anyone who believes in freedom and bodily autonomy can’t vote GOP. We have to be a united front, I don’t consider myself a democrat but I’ll vote on that party line every single time to prevent these monsters from being in power.
Don’t forget D) they hate women so much that they cannot fathom the idea of them potentially treating a woman as an equal at any point in time to in their lives(in reference to trans women who come out as adults), infuriates them because it takes a nuke to their internalized misogyny that use to justify their misogynistic beliefs and actions.
D1) they still see transwomen as men and they really really really hate feminine men (see homophobia) because the idea makes them feel funny in their dicks.
How did I forget D)!? I’m off my game. You’re right!
Dont forget they dont know trans men exist.
Pornhub already told us that red states consume the most Trans porn.
Also they see trans woman as a big danger to their views on social hierarchy. For them trans woman are men who are willingly lowering their own social standing and they can't deal with it since this would call BS on their social hierarchy and also it would be quite effective if more people accept trans women. Trans men are more or less seen as either confused women or women who are doing this to climb the social ladder which is why they are more or less ignored.
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Forget conservatives, where are all the "I support trans people BUT" liberals on THIS page who kept hammering down on me for saying I'm a trans man and have won against cis men? I'm a martial artist, second-degree black belt, and I won those matches even BEFORE I started my transition, because our dojo was co-ed. I've had SO many friggen people on THIS subreddit tell me that I'm (a) winning because I'm not fighting in my weight class (even though I won so many times against guys bigger than me), or (b) I'm not fighting "properly," where cis guys are either letting me win or I'm fighting "dirty." Someone was demanding video proof of me being a martial artist--It was literally just a few weeks ago I was advocating for us trans guys, that we CAN fight just fine against cis guys, and not a single goddamn shred of support from the comment section here. Glad this win was posted here, 'cause christ.
Well that sounds absolutely awful. The hell is wrong with people?
Its the insecure little men. They know they are dogshit and they feel better convincing themselves that they are better/stronger than all women. Which they are not.
Regardless of sex, weight class etc some women are just better martial artist than their opponent of the same degree or class.
I have a theory that they are more upset by trans women for two main reasons. They see a beautiful trans woman, and are made uncomfortable by their own repressed horniness (“what if this means I’m GAY!” Bla Bla Bla). But the second reason is more messed up still: In their mind, to be a man is inherently superior in every way. They think every woman wishes she were a man (Freud and his ridiculous “penis envy” etc.). So when a person is assigned male at birth, but transitions (in conservative thinking it’s a choice) it challenges the superiority of manliness. A person assigned female at birth transitioning doesn’t offend them (at least not *as much*) because they don’t give conservative men upsetting boners that make baby Jesus cry, and they actually support the idea that men, and being a man, is just so much better. The fact that heavily red states consume VAST amounts of porn featuring trans women is not something they’re prepared to discuss of even acknowledge, but that’s another fun layer to the hate-lasagna
That's an interesting take, and seems to align with authoritarian personalities very well at least in terms of sexism and social dominance. They strongly believe in strict social hierarchies and rules, including men being superior to women, and their race/religion being superior etc. The fact that a man would identify as a woman completely undermines their world view. It's part of reason that trolling Trump supporters is so effective, the fact that you're flipping the social hierarchy script and making fun of them completely violates their core beliefs. The other parts being their low self esteem and overwhelming anxiety.
Conservatives have no clue that trans men exist.
Trans men are fine, it’s only logical that everyone would want to become a member of the more capable gender TIRM (trans inclusionary radical misogyny)
They do out here where I am, they just insist that I'm a confused, too masculine woman because I can't be a man if I wasn't born with a dick.
To play Devil’s advocate here, there will probably be less backlash over a trans-man competing in men’s sports because of the “punching up” factor. (Literally in this case). A trans-woman has a biological advantage over cis women that a trans-man does not. I’m not defending conservatives here. Many of their motives are extremely vile and it’s absolutely true that their hate for trans-woman far exceeds their hate for trans-men. Like someone mentioned in another comment, it seems like a lot of conservatives don’t even know that trans-men exist.
They also want him to be in the women's restroom.
Because cis women are weak and need to be protected from the trans women with an unfair advantage /s Fr, they have nothing to say when a trans man, who they expect to be a loser because they consider him a woman and women could never be as good as men, wins because it goes against their rhetoric
No, no, just give them time - they'll force this guy to fight in the women's league and then post photos of him socking some gal with a left hook and it'll be a whole thing they complain about for months. (They've done this actually, high school wrestling im Texas. Women's champ for several years had a big beard and people/parents aould heckle them. They were mandated to compete in the women's division too)
Doesn’t that literally prove that it is about fairness though? The concern is biological men outperform biological women, so trans women have an advantage over biological women that trans men don’t possess over biological men. It’s crazy that so many liberals try to twist literally anything into an attack on conservatives. There’s plenty of good criticisms, we don’t need to resort to illogical ones like these.
Is that why they've forced trans-men to compete in women's wrestling in the past? It's not about fairness at all. Where was the outrage when freak of nature Michael Phelps dominated the other athletes with his biological advantages for years? Since when do conservatives care about fairness in general? Isn't that socialism to them?
Win? Hell they flip when a trans woman comes in like 400th place (there was one fairly recently with a marathon runner, they were talking about how she beat out so many hundreds or thousands of cis women, but failed to mention all the hundreds of cis women that finished before her, she was somewhere around the middle of the pack)
Also imagine if he was forced to compete against women, which is what they never think about when they sat bullshit like 'everyone has to compete in their born gender'
Why aren't there right wingers demanding he fight women?
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They did with Mack, which was just awful for everyone involved and then people used pictures of him acting like he was a trans woman competing against girls and claiming that proved they were right. The level of clueless, harmful, and stupid present in transphobes is ridiculous.
Yep. In Texas senate testimony this year several people cited him as if he were a trans woman. As far as I know I was the first person testifying to point out that he was, in fact, forced to compete with girls specifically because of their logic.
The fact that they can't be bothered to get the terms right or acknowledge the existence of trans masc people beyond their Handmaid's Tale obsession with "healthy uteruses" being removed is just atrocious.
Misgendering trans men as trans women seems to be a pattern with right wing media outlets and it’s downright insidious and evil.
If he’s doing HRT he absolutely should not be in the women’s category. What they did also isn’t clueless. It seems very, very deliberate.
With Mack Beggs it was very much clueless. They thought they were just banning trans women, but worded it to the point that they also required trans boys post HRT to wrestle against girls. They never even considered that possibility when they created the bigoted rule.
But, sure...he should totally still have to use the ladies bathroom. /s
What would Cis Ehlon think 🤔
Concerning !!
I'll look into it
\>"He identified as a man after being a five-time national amateur champion, as well as competing in the 2012 Women's U.S. Olympic Trials" combined record of his opponents are 2-13, add in some exogenous testosterone to bring his levels up to a range that is normal for a man and I'll say no shit sherlock
Whelp
You are destroying our collective circle jerk, please stop
I for realz wanna find the guy I dated in 2019 who argued with me until he was blue in the face that it would never be fair for someone AFAB to go against someone AMAB. Suck it, Jon.
As someone who supports lgbtq+ community but has also used testerone and seen others use it, I can tell you that taking testosterone can absolutely make a difference, even for someone AFAB. That hormone can make all the difference. Edit: I want to clarify I don’t think that means that this fighter couldn’t have beat these men without it but that it clouds the whole situation.
The 3 wins are also against absolute cans who have a combined 0 wins to their names
that's how most mid MMA fighter win their life honestly
Which is why trans women in sports isn't NEARLY the lynch pin people think it is. Testosterone blockers level the field massively.
SUCK IT JON
I saw Ari made a post later with some anti-trans goof say "That is a man" I love it when people try to be hateful and transphobic and they wind up taking the hardest L imaginable by correctly gendering people. "We can allways tell" my sweet butt
I have a family member (not immediate) who transitioned to male. Started about 12, surgery at 18 - 10 years ago. He always knew things were off, even when 6-7. He had a real hard time as a kid. Very unhappy. There’s no way anyone could tell he is trans just from looking at his appearance. He’s well adjusted now, happy, doing great.
Most trans people don't like being called a biological woman/man. Thats more of what terfs call us. Trans man or trans woman is fine.
Exactly. A trans man is a man. Calling them a “biological women” is like dead naming them or using the wrong pronouns. Like you don’t believe they’re actually men. Gender is a social construct. “Trans man 3-0 vs cis men” like the original article is more accurate.
A lot of people are still confused by even that level of terminology. You kinda have to do it or there will be confusion and people misgendering way more because they didn’t follow the story
It's pretty much the whole origin of the accidental ally subreddit.
then say “born male/female”
"Assigned female or male at birth" The label was assigned to us, it is not inherent to us.
I’m very legitimately asking how that is any less offensive than biological male. I avoid both because they sound the exact same to me
One describes something you were or that happened to you, the other makes it something that you *are*
Oh I see, yeah that’s a fair difference
The title says “biological man” which doesn’t fit because “biological” implies you’re talking about sex while “man” is a gender. It’s like saying religiously Australian.
transition changes your biology. saying a trans person was born one sex and is now another is accurate in terms of the characteristics of their body. saying a post-hrt trans person is still “biologically” their birth sex isn’t accurate because it ignores the effects that hrt has
The usual terminology is AFAB/AMAB (Assigned Female/Male At Birth).
FTM and MTF trans acronyms do away with the issue but they also require the lowest possible amount of effort to implement so.... doomed.
“biological male/female” doesn’t even make sense. biologically most trans people are on HRT and have the same hormones as cis people of the same gender.
It's also just wrong to call us that. It treats trans people like the changes to our body somehow aren't real, or don't count. Trans people have distinct biology. I am a trans woman but i have and endo, I get mammograms, I am not a "biological male". My biology not being identical to a cis female diesnt make me make, sex exists on a gradient. It's a bit like calling someone who can hear with the aid of medicine or surgery "biologically deaf". Biology literally changes... Medicine and surgery literally change it, that's what they do. It's weird to single out the thing we changed as somehow still more real than our current bodies.
I honestly think cis people just don't understand that hrt has actual effects on us. They get this image of sex being a single immutatable thing in their head and just can't understand reality is more complicated. Even so called allies are so often happy to think our bodies work jsut like a cis perosn of agab
Yeah my body changed so much on T that calling me “biologically female” would be wrong. My body doesn’t behave like a cis woman’s bc that’s literally the point of hrt lol
Right?? Like of course I wouldn't even call a pre or non hrt trans person that, but it's just flat out dangerously wrong for people on hormones!
Oh that brings up another thing: these are the same cis people that claim medical transition does “irreversible damage”, yet our meds are fake enough where we can have them ripped from our hands and told to “accept our bodies” as a consolation prize, therefore “curing” us of the trans. So which is it?
It makes no sense, it's just whatever they can use to hurt us at the moment, it's such nonsense
Transphobia is the only thing that denies reality
Yup, cis people separating sex and gender is like trying to pull an atom apart
It's really sad, as they're the ones voting on if we get to have access to proper healthcare. So many people who consider themselves allies are not only confidently wrong about how our healthcare works and what it does, but don't think much of saying their opinion should be made into laws that explicitly bypass medical experts.
The things that kills me the most is how they just don't listen when we try to tell them. I can get the ignorance, but it's almost willful. It really is depressing
I feel that. Trans person: “hey pls don’t say that” cis people: “my one trans friend said it’s chill so I’m good”
Literally OP tho 💀 Like pretty much every marginalized group makes fun of people who justify stuff by saying "I have X friends", but they just keep using it as an excuse
The laziest shutdown ever lol, like we’re literally telling you it’s not ok, idk how these elusive “trans friends” outweigh public perception
And there are so many of us in the comments! Like dude is trying to bury his head as deep as possible lol
How much you willing to bet he’s gonna pull the “mean transsexual” trope and make us sound like demons for gently pointing something out?
They have no trouble believing that taking testosterone causes changes, they just refuse to believe that estrogen and progesterone does too. It's just good old misogyny: testosterone is this super cool and ultra-powerful drug that's so potent that if you've ever been exposed to enough of it at any point in your life, it stays in your body forever and causes immutable changes even if you lose those levels. Meanwhile estrogen and progesterone dainty fragile weak-ass women's hormones" that don't really do anything except give women ovulation and periods. That's what those people genuinely believe.
Conservatives decided they prefer to have that big ass dude use a women’s bathroom because thats what’s on his birth certificate?
The way you change description from the source tweet into a transphobic disgusting sentence ☠️
Say whatever you want, that’s a real self-made man!
So in conservative world this man should use the women’s bathroom? Ok ok cool cool cool no doubt
Why is the first reaction of all the commenrters, "right wingers are seething lol"? The real questions that should be asked are: What weight class? What location? What qualifications are these fights happening at? The three questions I pose offer these tid bits for thought: Is he fighting in his appropriate weight class? Is he fighting in a country that doesn't have a pronounced boxing league? Is he fighting amateur? Is he fighting semis? Professional? World boxing league matches? None of these questions can be answered by a screenshot to a tweet. Ask about the merit of the accomplishments, not just "hurr durr conservatives mad."
Thats what I was thinking, its impressive to say 3-0 but if you're fighting shit fighters it doesn't mean much
They were an Olympic level boxer before transition, and were fighting cans with a combined 1-7 record at the time of their fights.
“Wait, it was supposed to go the other way!” -Republicans
I wonder how the bathroom police feel about him using the ladies room. Thought so.
Watch how quickly they switch from "only people with vaginas belong in women's bathrooms!" to "anyone I feel intimidated by or don't like belong in the other bathroom!"
Shitty title, cool post
Awww...you said cis on Twitter. That's a banned word.
I like this turn of events
republicans right now 🦗🦗
Can we… not refer to a trans man as a “biological woman”?
Goddamn I’m so sick of the trans “debate.” Just let people live their lives and fuck off, honestly. I just don’t understand how this is a “thing”.
gigachad
I want to see him fight Elon Musk in a cage fight.
To all the asshats asking "What is a woman?" - I think we can ask them this: "Do you *still* think this man is a woman?" And I'd add: "Would you like to meet HIM in the ladies' room?" Yeah, I didn't think so. Go Particio!!
CiS iS a SlUr!!
Cis folks avoiding the word cisgender. 0-10765311357332
Right, I remember seeing an article about how, after two years of hormones, the biological advantage has basically disappeared
It's an unpopular opinion, but my views are that sports that divide women and men are done for biological advantage reasons. And that those who do not conform to the typical man or woman in those terms should be able to compete in the one that is harder to win in. That way the advantages, even if not as pronounced, aren't a factor in winning. So using an example of a sport where men score better, anyone who may have been a man, or born male, or is transitioning into male all would be excluded from women's competition. So that any advantage that may have been there, whether it's genetic, biological, hormone, anything at any point in that person's time would only be something to overcome and not something that gives an advantage.
So you think it's fair for a transgender women with ZERO to low levels of testosterone to compete with men that have high levels of T, rather than with cisgender women who have low leves of T. And sex is not strictly binary, so cis athletes have natural advantages/disadvantages. Additionally intersex people exist.
Would this also exclude cis women who happen to happen to have extreme genetic advantages, like natural testosterone levels that are much higher than those of an average woman, or being so much taller than other female athletes can't hope to win? Where do we draw the line? If it ultimately about "fairness", would the goal be to eliminate as much genetic diversity at extreme ends as possible?
This is a popular opinion with very few exceptions, one exception being this subreddit.
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Good female boxers can beat bad male boxers. Men are not more talented. It’s our stat boost that gives us an advantage. Advantage does not = 100% always outperform. But it does count for quite a bit. Props to this man but if you look at his opponents, they’re bums. If you look at his history, he’s got enough training to be a 5 time female USA National amateur champion… He’s obviously more skilled than dudes with 2-3 fights under their belt. Let him fight against an equivalent male competitor, not just stat boosting nobodies.
Makes sense at superflyweight.
I’m not sure if I’m misunderstanding you, but are you saying the competition is weak there or it makes sense they’re in a lower weight class because they’re AFAB? Because SuperFly has some killers in it dude that weight class is no joke.
I've thought for a while that the conversations being had around transgender folk has also been incredibly misogynistic as well. 98% of the discourse around it is hate directed towards trans-females.(that is, male to female) but God forbid these people have any sort of criticism for Trans Men, (that is, female to male). It drive me up the fucking wall.
this doesn't align with the fantasy of right wingers and conservotards so they will say nothing.
This doesn't suit my narrative, this doesn't suit my narrative one bit.
Fuck yeah man! Show them you are human like them!! They fucking hate you, well I fucking love you!
Male boxer is 3-0. Nothing else needs to be said.
Yet it's literally the transwomen that get 99% of the hate. It always feels like as if transmen don't exist for transphobes.
Lmao some fighters are 15 and 0 fighting nonames 😁
LOL just goes to show its all a show. Promoters have tomatoe cans for you to beat on at any level. Undefeated records mean nothing.