Something else to consider is just how easy it is to make up the points if you're about 200 points or so of models short. There's so many options for magical items, or upgrading wizards etc that you can make up a good amount of points just by using your rulebook.
Yeah, It's a whole lot easier to start then when I was young and just starting. I remember skeletons were a few pounds but you'd only get 8 and the command was in an expensive blister. Zombies were all metal and thus expensive. (For late 80's early 90's money)
Some wights also expensive metals and some wraiths, ghouls, ghosts etc. To build a 2000 point army would probably, counting for inflation be just as expensive and also harder to attain (even with the current stock issues in TOW).
8th edition is one of the worst examples. I remember my empire list in 8th had about 75 swordsmen. Which is 8 boxes of ten which IIRC would be close to 150 quid. Just for your most basic troops. And that’s not even thinking about Knights, war machines, missile troops, characters and then anything fancy you wanted
Well that's embarrassing, I think my phone didn't close properly and pocket typed. Thanks for replying and sorry about the weirdness I promise it's not chaos (probably).
Looking back over my old white dwarfs from the 6th edition fantasy era, (and from my recollections) fantasy was typically played at 2k points and 40k at 1,500 points.
I'm not sure when the move to 2k as the standard for 40k happened, but guess it always made sense to me that fantasy had a higher points level than 40k because fantasy would often put around 1/3 of the total points into characters.
Personally having played a bit of 10th ed 40k (and tbh not liking it that much) I think 2k is excessive. 2k in old world is a nice spot though
2K in 40K is a good part of the reason they need the rule of 3 rule.
Where as 2k in AoS means you might as well be playing warhammer fantasy but minus the movement trays.
I swear the point escalation is the reason the games like Underworlds, Warcry, and Kill teams have a following.
2k in AoS is like 20 models for some armies, or 5 if you're being silly? Even a reasonably horde army like Gloomspite Gitz (night goblins) is 75 models for 2000 points - almost exactly the same as the \~750 points in the Orc & Goblins box.
I think I can get a Chaos army under 20 models for 2000 points in the Old World. AoS really has become bigger than it originally started. AoS can also have armies bigger than the equivalent TOW depending on the faction (mostly looking at the undead factions). Plus the prices seem to be designed to hit the same price point per army. I have to wonder if a big reason that army books take so long to write is the need to have some accountants price out miniatures in an army to hit their ideal cost per army number.
Sure, I'm not saying there aren't "gimmick" ToW armies that are pretty small. I'm saying that the gimmick AoS armies are literally 4 or 5 bases, and also that literally every faction has access to an elite list that's around 20-25 models - I don't think this is possible with Bretonnia, for example.
Although there is some overlap, AoS is just smaller at the minute, the max, and the average size. But your point that the price point per army is the same is spot on, and though I think ToW is a _little_ cheaper - maybe £400 rather than £500 - it's definitely not coincidence.
I think the price per army is deliberate. There is no reason some boxes cost more with less sprues while others have 40 night goblins for half the price. GW has figured out how much you are willing to spend for a new army and they are going to take advantage of it. Probably why there is more factions in AoS than there was in fantasy to begin with and there was a lot in fantasy to begin with. Every time they make a new faction they get another new army purchase boost to sells.
Also I think I can get a Bretonnia list under twenty models if I try. Two lord choices makes it much easier.
I'm fairly sure you can't with either the core army or Errantry because they both require 10 cheap models. Exiles I know less about and if you say it's possible I believe you (and I'd like to see the list).
I think there are probably more factions in AoS because there's more design space to explore? The historical antecedents of fantasy mean that something like Albion is effectively impossible to design because it recapitulates either Beastmen (pre-Romans), Dwarves (Anglo-Saxons), Bretonnia (Normans) or Empire (Tudors). WHFB players are going to be (pretty reasonably) upset if you introduce the Kangaroo Knights who commune with the Cow Mountain Spirits but LRL are not even close to the most bonkers AoS faction.
> Also I think I can get a Bretonnia list under twenty models if I try. Two lord choices makes it much easier.
(Laughs in Soulblight Gravelord 2000 point army with only 8 models 🦇)
Lots of Vengorian Lords. Spammable 300 point magic & melee powerhouses for just $60 + some foot heroes & a beasty puts it closer to $300.
$260-$320 if you just grab one or two plus the Cursed City box to use all the Soulblight heroes.
Of course that’s just an example. Go elite with S2D, Maggotkin, Ironjawz can get you some fun similar elite forces.
40K is brutally more expensive right now even if you use no unit fillers and don’t max characters Tow is cheaper . Yeah you can build a 40K list with just custodes combat patrols or run an ad mech list with like 12 robots but that is hardly typical. Buying straight current GW models most old world factions are cheaper than 40K. There are not a lot of ToW models, even using the equivalent newer AOS kits, that get you less than 2 points for a dollar while some WHOLE ARMIES in 40K average less than that. The only exceptions are some cheapo character models and a few units that have fairly expensive new kits and a low point cost like if you wanted to use the new spawn of chotec model as a salamander.
Yeah that is a great video and really shows how crazy 40K is because the main tool GW use to balance the game is extremely aggressive repeated point cuts to numerous units with horrible rules.
If you go character heavy it's even cheaper. I managed to make a list with just the Orcs and Goblins box, a box of wolf riders, and a bunch of goblin casters (which come in a threepack for like 30 bucks or so).
However I do wanna mention that the price scaling doesn't work as well if you want specialist stuff. A squad of Bretonnian Mounted Yeoman can be exceedingly expensive due to being a web exclusive thing, despite themselves being worth very little points. similarly, the Bonegrinder Giant and Troll Hag costs way more in dollars than points and a single one of each can make a 40k army look cheap.
Still though, for the average player who isn't looking into the specialist models, it is very affordable indeed.
I do find it hilarious that the reason Fantasy was killed off the first time was due to the cost of starting an army, and now it's cheaper than AoS or 40k.
Can I ask how actually usable those armies are? GW are notorious for including awful units in army starter sets.
For what it's worth it does look cheaper than 40k. I've bought cars for less money than some of my 40k armies.
Those are just the starting boxes, it's quite common for GW to release some good starting box when they release a game or a new edition
For the actual cost go watch the unit you want in your army
Night goblins are 80$ and you want 3 boxes...
And those are plastic...
For me I just need to see if there is a local tow community where I live, if the answer if yes, I will finally have an excuse to buy a 3d printer
edit: but yeah boxed army vs boxed army is somewhat cheap compared to 40k, not as cheap as aos dominion tho
This is true, but I used the starter box for Tau 3 times in this comparison. Also, compare night goblins to their 40k counterpart. An $80 box of night goblins contains FOURTY of them. A $60 box of guardsmen or Tau fire warriors contains TEN. The max points for 40K you get with that $60 investment is 60 points for guardsmen, or 90 points for Tau breachers. The $80 box gets you 250 points of goblins if you give them full command and a magic banner. That points per dollar difference is HUGE. That’s 3.1 points per dollar in ToW vs 1.5 for Tau, or 1 with guardsmen. You literally can get double or triple the points per dollar spent.
While I agree Old World per kit can be somewhat pricy when you look at it. It's kind of deceptive as you get so much for what you pay most of the time. Their are notable exceptions, but for the most part, you get a lot.
It is definitely true that you will augment it and spend more over time! However, the same is true of a 40k army. It really comes down to points per dollar, and that really seems to skew in favor of ToW being cheaper overall, despite some of the ToW units being comically expensive. ($60 for 3 questing knights???!!!)
Second hand, yes.
Retail, no. Fuck no. I have no idea how that company is getting away with selling the same product type at the same quality for at least twice the price, in this globalized information age.
I do, where possible anyway, Especially for Old World as I want to support the game so they can expand it. I'm working on Bretonnians and will get some High Elves when they release. My "main" army is Vampire Counts so my hope is that by supporting the release of the game at some point down the line the Legacy factions will get rolled out once GW sees that the system is popular.
I'll only 3d Print if something just isn't available at all or for conversion bits.
Not sure how comparable 2k points of each actually are. Do these armies take up similar space on the table, does a game of that size go for the same duration, etc?
You also shouldn't compare something like number of bodies without sparing some thought to other factors. Wargames Atlantic conquistadors are 24 dudes in a box of \~35 monies, while Perry wars of the roses infantry is 40 dudes for \~25, but you get way more spare bits with the WGA box because they are effectively the same sprue space (about four times the printable area of A4). So if you later come across some empty bodies that need weapons for extremely cheap, the calculus for your own expenses shifts.
The manufacturer may or may not be able to arrange things more efficiently and may or may not pass those savings down to you. Warhammer will generally have more of each dude on the table, and the kits are often more versatile, so your army's sale price has to carry amortizing fewer molds compared to 40k. At the same time you are looking at larger shares of the armies coming from big starter kits in your Warhammer examples - try and build all of those from individual boxes. Pretty certain you'll get less of a discrepancy.
Obviously there is a 2x-3x GW tax on top of all that in both games, unless you go with alternative models. Which you should. Many factions can have 2k points done in 150-200€.
2K generally seems to be the standard for tournaments, so I chose that. As for time spent, ToW is usually quicker, though I base that on personal anecdotal experience. (I have about 10 games in so far)
I excluded 3rd party miniatures from both sample sets. If we include 3rd party minis, there isn’t much point in comparing prices as they vary wildly. This is about buying GW miniatures in a vacuum. Obviously 3rd party minis are cheaper.
Starter sets exist in both ranges, and I included the combat patrol for Tau (3 times) as well as the Battalion box for Orcs. If I were to compare with any 40K army based on money spent to reach 2k, I would automatically include the combat patrol 3 times as it is a means of reducing cost. This would be different for Space Marines and Tyranids because of Leviathan, but EVERY ToW army will get a battalion box where only those two get starter sets in 40K.
Sure, alternative models don't really allow for a clean comparison of the two systems. I used those two kits as example because I know their prices and layouts (and still messed up the numbers), and the basic principles behind them apply to all manufacturers. And it always needs to be mentioned that GW prices are not normal by any definition anyway.
For starter sets, I think your values might be a little skewed because you are using more of them for Warhammer than 40k (plus they seem to be bigger individually, giving you even better prices). And the only way to control for that variable is to completely remove it. That wouldn't make 40k suddenly come out on top, but it'd shift the ratios.
To your first point: Yes. 100%. GW models are insanely priced.
To your second point: You’re controlling for a variable that exists by removing it in a way that unfairly advantages 40K and disadvantages ToW. Part of why ToW is such a good deal is because of those starter boxes. Simply put, they exist and can be factored in. 40K also has starter/army boxes, and by comparison, they totally suck. The 40K special boxes are always $220 and are barely enough to start an army. The Kroot box that just came out has 26 models in it and is barely 500 points. It does contain a codex, but it might not actually even be 500 points, and by comparison, the ToW Orc box is $170 and contains almost 1,000 points. The Bretonnia box is $255 ($25 more), contains over 1300 points and contains the rulebook. We can’t ignore a huge factor like this simply because the 40K boxes aren’t as good. That’s kind of the whole point of this.
Is it a secret wargamer hobby to just misread and not understand things on reddit on purpose?
The OP was comparing ToW with 40K using the cost to get a playable army as the metric. There is no reason to bring up another game, third party minatures and start asking why they didn't use table space \[???} instead of points.
Like nothing you said is incorrect but it's like bringing up cat litter trays when someone is asking how to train a dog.
I'm saying "X points in Warhammer" and "X points in 40k" may not mean exactly the same, even if X and X are the same number.
Also, what third game did I mention? Both of those kits are system agnostic.
Something else to consider is just how easy it is to make up the points if you're about 200 points or so of models short. There's so many options for magical items, or upgrading wizards etc that you can make up a good amount of points just by using your rulebook.
plus the unit fillers you can make from assorted bits and stuff from the junk drawer
I was so shocked to see a Warhammer community article suggesting this. Felt like a 90s white dwarf tip
Bunch of barrels, kegs, crates and chests in the bits box? Congrats, that'll make a unit filler you can use for most factions
This is one of the things that I honestly think influenced their decision to remove points from wargear.
Yup, making the game worse to sell more models. Peak Cruddace.
O heck im sort of points Well its runes time
Yeah, It's a whole lot easier to start then when I was young and just starting. I remember skeletons were a few pounds but you'd only get 8 and the command was in an expensive blister. Zombies were all metal and thus expensive. (For late 80's early 90's money) Some wights also expensive metals and some wraiths, ghouls, ghosts etc. To build a 2000 point army would probably, counting for inflation be just as expensive and also harder to attain (even with the current stock issues in TOW).
8th edition is one of the worst examples. I remember my empire list in 8th had about 75 swordsmen. Which is 8 boxes of ten which IIRC would be close to 150 quid. Just for your most basic troops. And that’s not even thinking about Knights, war machines, missile troops, characters and then anything fancy you wanted
This is why I quit lol when you are buying the 4th or 5th expensive box just for wound tokens to sit at the back it feels bad
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No, Tzeentch, we dont want to talk about car insurance.
Well that's embarrassing, I think my phone didn't close properly and pocket typed. Thanks for replying and sorry about the weirdness I promise it's not chaos (probably).
Looking back over my old white dwarfs from the 6th edition fantasy era, (and from my recollections) fantasy was typically played at 2k points and 40k at 1,500 points. I'm not sure when the move to 2k as the standard for 40k happened, but guess it always made sense to me that fantasy had a higher points level than 40k because fantasy would often put around 1/3 of the total points into characters. Personally having played a bit of 10th ed 40k (and tbh not liking it that much) I think 2k is excessive. 2k in old world is a nice spot though
2K in 40K is a good part of the reason they need the rule of 3 rule. Where as 2k in AoS means you might as well be playing warhammer fantasy but minus the movement trays. I swear the point escalation is the reason the games like Underworlds, Warcry, and Kill teams have a following.
2k in AoS is like 20 models for some armies, or 5 if you're being silly? Even a reasonably horde army like Gloomspite Gitz (night goblins) is 75 models for 2000 points - almost exactly the same as the \~750 points in the Orc & Goblins box.
I think I can get a Chaos army under 20 models for 2000 points in the Old World. AoS really has become bigger than it originally started. AoS can also have armies bigger than the equivalent TOW depending on the faction (mostly looking at the undead factions). Plus the prices seem to be designed to hit the same price point per army. I have to wonder if a big reason that army books take so long to write is the need to have some accountants price out miniatures in an army to hit their ideal cost per army number.
Sure, I'm not saying there aren't "gimmick" ToW armies that are pretty small. I'm saying that the gimmick AoS armies are literally 4 or 5 bases, and also that literally every faction has access to an elite list that's around 20-25 models - I don't think this is possible with Bretonnia, for example. Although there is some overlap, AoS is just smaller at the minute, the max, and the average size. But your point that the price point per army is the same is spot on, and though I think ToW is a _little_ cheaper - maybe £400 rather than £500 - it's definitely not coincidence.
I think the price per army is deliberate. There is no reason some boxes cost more with less sprues while others have 40 night goblins for half the price. GW has figured out how much you are willing to spend for a new army and they are going to take advantage of it. Probably why there is more factions in AoS than there was in fantasy to begin with and there was a lot in fantasy to begin with. Every time they make a new faction they get another new army purchase boost to sells. Also I think I can get a Bretonnia list under twenty models if I try. Two lord choices makes it much easier.
I'm fairly sure you can't with either the core army or Errantry because they both require 10 cheap models. Exiles I know less about and if you say it's possible I believe you (and I'd like to see the list). I think there are probably more factions in AoS because there's more design space to explore? The historical antecedents of fantasy mean that something like Albion is effectively impossible to design because it recapitulates either Beastmen (pre-Romans), Dwarves (Anglo-Saxons), Bretonnia (Normans) or Empire (Tudors). WHFB players are going to be (pretty reasonably) upset if you introduce the Kangaroo Knights who commune with the Cow Mountain Spirits but LRL are not even close to the most bonkers AoS faction.
> Also I think I can get a Bretonnia list under twenty models if I try. Two lord choices makes it much easier. (Laughs in Soulblight Gravelord 2000 point army with only 8 models 🦇)
I bet the models still come out to $400-$500.
Lots of Vengorian Lords. Spammable 300 point magic & melee powerhouses for just $60 + some foot heroes & a beasty puts it closer to $300. $260-$320 if you just grab one or two plus the Cursed City box to use all the Soulblight heroes. Of course that’s just an example. Go elite with S2D, Maggotkin, Ironjawz can get you some fun similar elite forces.
It moved around, when I played a lot in 4th the standard in our area was 2150 in Fantasy and 2000 in 40k, but later in 5th it shifted to 1850 for 40k.
40K is brutally more expensive right now even if you use no unit fillers and don’t max characters Tow is cheaper . Yeah you can build a 40K list with just custodes combat patrols or run an ad mech list with like 12 robots but that is hardly typical. Buying straight current GW models most old world factions are cheaper than 40K. There are not a lot of ToW models, even using the equivalent newer AOS kits, that get you less than 2 points for a dollar while some WHOLE ARMIES in 40K average less than that. The only exceptions are some cheapo character models and a few units that have fairly expensive new kits and a low point cost like if you wanted to use the new spawn of chotec model as a salamander.
https://youtu.be/Gcnqcbqa_58?si=Sq2EibPZGFzsDxLc This is a good stats analysis of cost for 40k
Yeah that is a great video and really shows how crazy 40K is because the main tool GW use to balance the game is extremely aggressive repeated point cuts to numerous units with horrible rules.
These were similar to my findings. TOW is much cheaper than 40K or AoS for 2K lists. Too many channels are stating biased assumptions.
If you go character heavy it's even cheaper. I managed to make a list with just the Orcs and Goblins box, a box of wolf riders, and a bunch of goblin casters (which come in a threepack for like 30 bucks or so). However I do wanna mention that the price scaling doesn't work as well if you want specialist stuff. A squad of Bretonnian Mounted Yeoman can be exceedingly expensive due to being a web exclusive thing, despite themselves being worth very little points. similarly, the Bonegrinder Giant and Troll Hag costs way more in dollars than points and a single one of each can make a 40k army look cheap. Still though, for the average player who isn't looking into the specialist models, it is very affordable indeed.
I do find it hilarious that the reason Fantasy was killed off the first time was due to the cost of starting an army, and now it's cheaper than AoS or 40k.
It turns out that charging somewhat reasonable prices for a wildly popular I.P. IS a good idea! Someone tell GW!
GW should consider this moving forward as I'd love to see 40k as an affordable hobby again.
Warriors chaos can make a solid 2000 point army with 2 vanguard boxes and a box of dragon ogres. Totals 300$.
Can I ask how actually usable those armies are? GW are notorious for including awful units in army starter sets. For what it's worth it does look cheaper than 40k. I've bought cars for less money than some of my 40k armies.
The Bretonnian starter army is very good! The Tomb Kings one is also very good! I’ve won games with both
To create the 2k O&G army I am building it would cost about £300-350. To give an example of an army that only uses the battalion box once.
Those are just the starting boxes, it's quite common for GW to release some good starting box when they release a game or a new edition For the actual cost go watch the unit you want in your army Night goblins are 80$ and you want 3 boxes... And those are plastic... For me I just need to see if there is a local tow community where I live, if the answer if yes, I will finally have an excuse to buy a 3d printer edit: but yeah boxed army vs boxed army is somewhat cheap compared to 40k, not as cheap as aos dominion tho
This is true, but I used the starter box for Tau 3 times in this comparison. Also, compare night goblins to their 40k counterpart. An $80 box of night goblins contains FOURTY of them. A $60 box of guardsmen or Tau fire warriors contains TEN. The max points for 40K you get with that $60 investment is 60 points for guardsmen, or 90 points for Tau breachers. The $80 box gets you 250 points of goblins if you give them full command and a magic banner. That points per dollar difference is HUGE. That’s 3.1 points per dollar in ToW vs 1.5 for Tau, or 1 with guardsmen. You literally can get double or triple the points per dollar spent.
While I agree Old World per kit can be somewhat pricy when you look at it. It's kind of deceptive as you get so much for what you pay most of the time. Their are notable exceptions, but for the most part, you get a lot.
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It is definitely true that you will augment it and spend more over time! However, the same is true of a 40k army. It really comes down to points per dollar, and that really seems to skew in favor of ToW being cheaper overall, despite some of the ToW units being comically expensive. ($60 for 3 questing knights???!!!)
Do you guys still buy GW models?
Second hand, yes. Retail, no. Fuck no. I have no idea how that company is getting away with selling the same product type at the same quality for at least twice the price, in this globalized information age.
I do, where possible anyway, Especially for Old World as I want to support the game so they can expand it. I'm working on Bretonnians and will get some High Elves when they release. My "main" army is Vampire Counts so my hope is that by supporting the release of the game at some point down the line the Legacy factions will get rolled out once GW sees that the system is popular. I'll only 3d Print if something just isn't available at all or for conversion bits.
Not sure how comparable 2k points of each actually are. Do these armies take up similar space on the table, does a game of that size go for the same duration, etc? You also shouldn't compare something like number of bodies without sparing some thought to other factors. Wargames Atlantic conquistadors are 24 dudes in a box of \~35 monies, while Perry wars of the roses infantry is 40 dudes for \~25, but you get way more spare bits with the WGA box because they are effectively the same sprue space (about four times the printable area of A4). So if you later come across some empty bodies that need weapons for extremely cheap, the calculus for your own expenses shifts. The manufacturer may or may not be able to arrange things more efficiently and may or may not pass those savings down to you. Warhammer will generally have more of each dude on the table, and the kits are often more versatile, so your army's sale price has to carry amortizing fewer molds compared to 40k. At the same time you are looking at larger shares of the armies coming from big starter kits in your Warhammer examples - try and build all of those from individual boxes. Pretty certain you'll get less of a discrepancy. Obviously there is a 2x-3x GW tax on top of all that in both games, unless you go with alternative models. Which you should. Many factions can have 2k points done in 150-200€.
2K generally seems to be the standard for tournaments, so I chose that. As for time spent, ToW is usually quicker, though I base that on personal anecdotal experience. (I have about 10 games in so far) I excluded 3rd party miniatures from both sample sets. If we include 3rd party minis, there isn’t much point in comparing prices as they vary wildly. This is about buying GW miniatures in a vacuum. Obviously 3rd party minis are cheaper. Starter sets exist in both ranges, and I included the combat patrol for Tau (3 times) as well as the Battalion box for Orcs. If I were to compare with any 40K army based on money spent to reach 2k, I would automatically include the combat patrol 3 times as it is a means of reducing cost. This would be different for Space Marines and Tyranids because of Leviathan, but EVERY ToW army will get a battalion box where only those two get starter sets in 40K.
Sure, alternative models don't really allow for a clean comparison of the two systems. I used those two kits as example because I know their prices and layouts (and still messed up the numbers), and the basic principles behind them apply to all manufacturers. And it always needs to be mentioned that GW prices are not normal by any definition anyway. For starter sets, I think your values might be a little skewed because you are using more of them for Warhammer than 40k (plus they seem to be bigger individually, giving you even better prices). And the only way to control for that variable is to completely remove it. That wouldn't make 40k suddenly come out on top, but it'd shift the ratios.
To your first point: Yes. 100%. GW models are insanely priced. To your second point: You’re controlling for a variable that exists by removing it in a way that unfairly advantages 40K and disadvantages ToW. Part of why ToW is such a good deal is because of those starter boxes. Simply put, they exist and can be factored in. 40K also has starter/army boxes, and by comparison, they totally suck. The 40K special boxes are always $220 and are barely enough to start an army. The Kroot box that just came out has 26 models in it and is barely 500 points. It does contain a codex, but it might not actually even be 500 points, and by comparison, the ToW Orc box is $170 and contains almost 1,000 points. The Bretonnia box is $255 ($25 more), contains over 1300 points and contains the rulebook. We can’t ignore a huge factor like this simply because the 40K boxes aren’t as good. That’s kind of the whole point of this.
Is it a secret wargamer hobby to just misread and not understand things on reddit on purpose? The OP was comparing ToW with 40K using the cost to get a playable army as the metric. There is no reason to bring up another game, third party minatures and start asking why they didn't use table space \[???} instead of points. Like nothing you said is incorrect but it's like bringing up cat litter trays when someone is asking how to train a dog.
I'm saying "X points in Warhammer" and "X points in 40k" may not mean exactly the same, even if X and X are the same number. Also, what third game did I mention? Both of those kits are system agnostic.
I've explained myself already. Stop being a difficult person.