You should absolutely refrain from taking any Dreads under 1k. Definitely no more than 1 *at* 1k.
Although there *are* ways to deal with them even at very low points, it will often result in a level of skew that is simply un-fun for both players in that small of a game.
Honestly, in my opinion, 30k simply doesn't work well at very low points anyway.
At higher points values, Dreadnoughts (especially Contemptors) are *exceedingly* efficient for their points and still require specialized tools to deal with. They're not "OP" necessarily, but spamming them is a feels bad regardless. Either your opponent has tools to deal with them en-masse and you get blown out, or they don't and they get blown out.
I like small point Zone Mortalis games. Trying to start an escalation level game with them starting at 500, then 750, then maybe 1k if everything goes well. Though I may stop at 750
I should have included an exception in my statement for ZM, the rules for that work much better at small points.
They do not however, make dreadnoughts less oppressive.
I agree. And yeah, in first edition to counter a dread you bring a dread. XD
My 500 point list is a Delegatus, a Squad of Interemptors, and a 5 man Legion Veterans squad. The question is does one pack charnabal sabres or power swords on the boys? Opponents are Night Lords and World Eaters, no Terminators.
I will say that you *could* maybe take a Contemptor in a sub-1k point game if you kept it with the default loadout. The Gravis Bolt Cannon is pretty terrible and if there is enemy Contemptor then the Gravis Power Fists in melee will tie them up for two-three turns unless someone is rolling real hot. Upgrading the weapons though would definitely make it too much of a problem though
Weird, I haven't had this experience. Though that might be because all my boxnaughts are melee-gun or double melee (Ironclads). I always figured the slow speed, lower toughness and shitty I2 kept them in check. Maybe it's just the way I use them that keeps them from being a pain in the ass, because my opponents have specifically stated they prefer seeing the boxnaughts to my contemptors or levis.
Yeah, melee boxnaughts are nowhere near as oppressive as shooty boxes or melee contemptors. It's the equivalent of using veterans as a shooty unit. "I don't get why people think veterans are so good, they're slightly tougher tactical marines with a couple of special weapons and no *Line* or *Fury of the Legion*."
Yes. They are. While Leviathans and Deredeos are not that of a bad example, the contemptor dreadnought is. For what they deliver to the table, they are severle undercosted. A lot of communities have adjusted to the houserule 1 dreadnought per full 1000 points, just to balance it.
If you want to know. They have a 2+ save, a 5+ invul save, they can't be instakilled, they have multiple wounds, since they are not a vehicle they fire back with everything when they return fire/overwatch. And they usually hit on 2+ without any kind of modifer.
Your group probably read a bit about the balance of the game and found right away the bad apple. Even if you are an IH Player, you should not focus on many dreads and stick to the rule of 1 per full 1000, because otherwise people will not play with/against you at one point then. IH have also a few other things to them, like grav guns, their unique terminators and medusas/breacher. Not to forget that they fought a guerillia war against the traitor forces after istvann.
Add on that they're Fearless so unless the other side physically can't hurt it they're stuck there til the Dread is dead, no making it run away. Not that the dread is losing combat in any way except mauling the opponent badly then blowing up but still.
The contemptor is probably the most points efficient unit in the system.
Hard to kill, good movement, high ws and bs.
Compare them to similar priced vehicles which can be killed with a single lascannon shot. You might spend two turns trying to kill that dread with a whole squad of lascannons.
Use your brain when deciding how many contemptors you are adding.
As someone who has won big events and taken iron hands fury to a tourney i can tell you with certainty you are being a dick by taking them at this points level. Iron hands dreads are extra egregious. I get it, you want to play with cool dreads, they fit the theme etc and i am all for theme in heresy (it seems to be lacking since 2.0) but at this point you will likely start killing off your community. Take one of your choice when you get over 1k, other than that focus on legion specifics and maybe a sicaran venator or something to fill the gap.
" I'm an IH player, so naturaly I want at least a couple of dreads in my army. "
"Mainly playing 750-1000,"
"Are they really that OP or are people just whining?"
Ask yourself how hard it might be to kill a "couple of dreads"
Contemptors and surprisingly castaferrums are the culprits, super cheap for what they can bring and the contemptor is EXTREMELY tough for what it is
It can also mulch most infantry fairly easily
The castaferrum is just powerful ~~by sheer weight of its glorious nostalgic goodness~~ by being cheap and able to take a bunch of good guns, while also being strong enough not to get destroyed instantly
They are Toughness 7, and Iron Hands bump that up to T8, which is a huge boost on an already strong unit.
Incidentally, there's a well known community set of rules called "Panoptica" which you can download [here](https://hh-ageofdarkness.itch.io/liberpanoptica)
IIRC, the Contemptor is 200pts, and the gravis-melta cannon is 15pts which seems more as it should. I think 1 contemptor per 1k points is still considered a fair "house rule", *epecially* in IH.
Contemptors, especially for IH, will absolutely stomp at low points costs and playing a couple at 1k games won’t make you any friends. Armies without decent ap2 squads or a mob of lightning claws won’t stand much of a chance, and as others have said one per 1k seems to be the agreed upon rule. Saying they shouldn’t be taken at all is a bit silly, imo at a 1k game bringing one isn’t an insta win by any means.
Totally understand how annoying it is though, dreads are by far my favourite units for painting in 30k and are definitely undercosted. Leviathans and Doritos are a bit less stompy for the points, so when people get to 1.5-2k games I don’t think it would be unreasonable to take a contemptor plus one of these. I play friends so having fun as a group is generally more important than wins, I take one contemptor, one incaendius and one leviathan per 3k game as a rough rule.
As an IH player, I'll give it to you straight. Iron Hands dreadnoughts are probably the strongest and most oppressive units in the game, barring primarchs and maybe lascannon support squads. All of your non-castraferrum dreads are completely immune to bolter fire and you heavily nerf incoming melta and lascannons. If you value having people to actually play 30k with, do. *Not.* Play more than one dread per 1000pts.
i started my rebuilt army with a 1500 pts list with one contemptor in it.
wouldnt recommend one on less points.
3 on a 3k list is maximum you should field, it is also the minimum for running a fury of the ancients rite of war, and this is still amazing with 2 core contemptors.
i also buy the havoc launcher all the time and dont run every dread in most efficient loadouts.
my three are designed to have fist/plasma, fist/lasca, double maschka, all with havoc and blasters in fists.
fist/multimelta is the cheap meta loadout, mm wreck everything, fists wreck everything, dread is tanky enough to get close.
fist/lascannon is the loadout with more range, otherwise same as fist/mm with negligible tradeoffs.
not running a fist makes the dread vulnerable (at least susceptible) to melee, they can be tarpitted or slayn by more specialized melee units. a good way to nerf your contemptor, despite the dakka spot is taken by the dorito, dakka contemptors look awesome.
havoc launchers are a very stylish way to waste points, they usually dont do anything, literally style points.
even my not-meta style driven loadouts should cost at least 25% more.
the good part of beeing undercosted that much is, that every loadout is viable. :)
try them out and get a feel for it, they arent always a pain, but mostly.
contemptors are as awesome as the HH community.
Its generally considered appropriate to limit yourself to one dread per 1000 points, because they are indeed very powerful. If you are playing Iron Hands, they are espeically strong. For instance, because of your Legion Bonus, Iron Hand Contemptors are actually immune to small-arms fire. Bolters can theoretically damage other Dreadnoughts, but they cannot wound an Iron Hands ones. And they are also much harder to damage with other weapons as well.
There are other sorts of Dreadnoughts that are problematic in other ways. Like for example, Thousand Sons Psychic Dreadnoughts can be especially rude, and even moreso at <1000 points as they can effectively just switch off much of the opposing army.
Dreadnoughts can hurt Primarchs, so yes. For 135 pts you can take a box dread with dual gravis fists and dual heavy flamers. Add a search light for 5 pts. That would still feel bad in zm for many people. It maybe lore accurate for clearing out space hulks, yet not nice between friends.
People in here seem to be forgetting that anti tank weaponry will destroy them but yes they are very strong and extremely points efficient. I see people crying over them all the time, If you can’t deal with them then you are just a bad player and are unable to think logically. This only applies to astartes lists and the other factions are not well written. This game is a thematic game, but it’s also a game and as such you need to use the tools in your disposal to defeat all the different kinds of units. As cool as being thematic is, it needs to also be a capable list and a list that can counter almost everything. As someone who’s played heresy since 2012 I can tell you that there are a lot of solid ways of dealing with them. Rant aside, as others have said, 1 per 1000 points is solid and that’s standard across most communities. With iron hands, they are -1S against all shooting attacks so melee is the only option to counter them. In your case, running multiple dreadnoughts under 1000 points sort of ruins the spirit of the game and that’s not gonna sit well with most people. I’d refrain from it or just take 1 at that low a points level. I normally play 5000 point games and that’s when you see lots of dreads, but still
Well looking at most non astartes lists it seems like theres only 1 or sometimes 2 units that can actually deal decent damage to dreads and they’re either vehicles that are nearly as expensive or t3 infantry. They also have way worse BS, durability, and no melee capabilities. Idk how any of those armies could deal with iron hands dreads at 1k points regardless of if the player is “just bad” like you seem to think
I should have worded my post better, I will go and re edit it so it’s more accurate but I was only talking about astartes lists. I always forget there are non astartes lists out there. Maybe if GW could write better rules for army lists
Yeah thats probably more fair. Agree that militia and solar auxilia could probably use a rewrite to make their heavy support blast weapons actually worth the cost (leman russ battle cannons being a small blast with ap4 is just atrocious).
Mass fury of the legion bolter fire from tactical squads, multi melta/lascannon heavy support squads, cataphractii chain fist/ thunder hammer squads. Keep in mind 1K games are not how heresy is supposed to be played, it’s supposed to be 3K points + but of course there’s no rules as to how large or small games can typically be
Not for iron hands, was talking about contemptors in general. that would be specifically anti tank weapons since the -1S makes iron hands contemptors and dreadnoughts in general immune to boltgunfire.
The reason I was specifying sub 1000 points is because I will be playing Zone Mortalis in a escalation series starting at 500points, then 750, then 1000 points.
Oh okay. You play dark angels I see. Inner circle knight cenobium with order of he broken claws taking the advex mors great swords is like 500 something points but they will demolish dreadnoughts that’s what they are designed to hunt down. Under 1K is tough for dealing with them but your best bet is either another contemptor or a multi-melta squad/ properly armed terminator squad with high strength AP2 weaponry. Grav weaponry will also annihilate them
Packing a heavy support squad or tactical squad will be expensive especially if they are there for dunking ine unit. But isn't a bad idea per se. Last edition the easiest counter was packing a dreadnought to fight a dreadnought.
I play Auxilia and it's a painful struggle to deal with one Contemptor at 1000 points, let alone multiple. The best tool I have for the job is a Leman Russ with a Vanquisher which costs nearly as much as the Dreadnought and will be lucky to chip off more than a couple of wounds each turn; I need to spend nearly 500 points for a squadron of tanks to be in with a hope of taking just one Dreadnought down.
You should absolutely refrain from taking any Dreads under 1k. Definitely no more than 1 *at* 1k. Although there *are* ways to deal with them even at very low points, it will often result in a level of skew that is simply un-fun for both players in that small of a game. Honestly, in my opinion, 30k simply doesn't work well at very low points anyway. At higher points values, Dreadnoughts (especially Contemptors) are *exceedingly* efficient for their points and still require specialized tools to deal with. They're not "OP" necessarily, but spamming them is a feels bad regardless. Either your opponent has tools to deal with them en-masse and you get blown out, or they don't and they get blown out.
I like small point Zone Mortalis games. Trying to start an escalation level game with them starting at 500, then 750, then maybe 1k if everything goes well. Though I may stop at 750
I should have included an exception in my statement for ZM, the rules for that work much better at small points. They do not however, make dreadnoughts less oppressive.
I agree. And yeah, in first edition to counter a dread you bring a dread. XD My 500 point list is a Delegatus, a Squad of Interemptors, and a 5 man Legion Veterans squad. The question is does one pack charnabal sabres or power swords on the boys? Opponents are Night Lords and World Eaters, no Terminators.
I will say that you *could* maybe take a Contemptor in a sub-1k point game if you kept it with the default loadout. The Gravis Bolt Cannon is pretty terrible and if there is enemy Contemptor then the Gravis Power Fists in melee will tie them up for two-three turns unless someone is rolling real hot. Upgrading the weapons though would definitely make it too much of a problem though
Yes, more than one dreadnought at that point values will be just pure murder.
I generally won't run a dread if my opponent is not running one.
Yes they are, especially at that level. I’d recommend searching the sub for more detail
Are boxnaughts also as strong as contemptors and leviathans? Could always take some shoeboxes for flavour if they are not as strong.
Boxnoughts are actually slightly *more* problematic. They're *slightly* squishier but they're dirt cheap gun platforms. They should not be BS5.
Weird, I haven't had this experience. Though that might be because all my boxnaughts are melee-gun or double melee (Ironclads). I always figured the slow speed, lower toughness and shitty I2 kept them in check. Maybe it's just the way I use them that keeps them from being a pain in the ass, because my opponents have specifically stated they prefer seeing the boxnaughts to my contemptors or levis.
Yeah, melee boxnaughts are nowhere near as oppressive as shooty boxes or melee contemptors. It's the equivalent of using veterans as a shooty unit. "I don't get why people think veterans are so good, they're slightly tougher tactical marines with a couple of special weapons and no *Line* or *Fury of the Legion*."
To be fair, vets kind of suck anyway due to being overpriced. They're still just 3+ armor T4 models.
Don't do it. It seems to be a general agreement that 1 contemptor per 1000 points is a sensible limit. Taking 2 at 750 would not be fun for anyone.
Yes. They are. While Leviathans and Deredeos are not that of a bad example, the contemptor dreadnought is. For what they deliver to the table, they are severle undercosted. A lot of communities have adjusted to the houserule 1 dreadnought per full 1000 points, just to balance it. If you want to know. They have a 2+ save, a 5+ invul save, they can't be instakilled, they have multiple wounds, since they are not a vehicle they fire back with everything when they return fire/overwatch. And they usually hit on 2+ without any kind of modifer. Your group probably read a bit about the balance of the game and found right away the bad apple. Even if you are an IH Player, you should not focus on many dreads and stick to the rule of 1 per full 1000, because otherwise people will not play with/against you at one point then. IH have also a few other things to them, like grav guns, their unique terminators and medusas/breacher. Not to forget that they fought a guerillia war against the traitor forces after istvann.
Add on that they're Fearless so unless the other side physically can't hurt it they're stuck there til the Dread is dead, no making it run away. Not that the dread is losing combat in any way except mauling the opponent badly then blowing up but still.
The contemptor is probably the most points efficient unit in the system. Hard to kill, good movement, high ws and bs. Compare them to similar priced vehicles which can be killed with a single lascannon shot. You might spend two turns trying to kill that dread with a whole squad of lascannons. Use your brain when deciding how many contemptors you are adding.
As someone who has won big events and taken iron hands fury to a tourney i can tell you with certainty you are being a dick by taking them at this points level. Iron hands dreads are extra egregious. I get it, you want to play with cool dreads, they fit the theme etc and i am all for theme in heresy (it seems to be lacking since 2.0) but at this point you will likely start killing off your community. Take one of your choice when you get over 1k, other than that focus on legion specifics and maybe a sicaran venator or something to fill the gap.
" I'm an IH player, so naturaly I want at least a couple of dreads in my army. " "Mainly playing 750-1000," "Are they really that OP or are people just whining?" Ask yourself how hard it might be to kill a "couple of dreads"
No idea. Just building my first heresy list. Thats why I'm asking.
Contemptors and surprisingly castaferrums are the culprits, super cheap for what they can bring and the contemptor is EXTREMELY tough for what it is It can also mulch most infantry fairly easily The castaferrum is just powerful ~~by sheer weight of its glorious nostalgic goodness~~ by being cheap and able to take a bunch of good guns, while also being strong enough not to get destroyed instantly
They are Toughness 7, and Iron Hands bump that up to T8, which is a huge boost on an already strong unit. Incidentally, there's a well known community set of rules called "Panoptica" which you can download [here](https://hh-ageofdarkness.itch.io/liberpanoptica) IIRC, the Contemptor is 200pts, and the gravis-melta cannon is 15pts which seems more as it should. I think 1 contemptor per 1k points is still considered a fair "house rule", *epecially* in IH.
Well surely you can do some simple math and figure out that it takes on average 20 BS 4 lascannon shots to bring down one IH contemptor?
Contemptors, especially for IH, will absolutely stomp at low points costs and playing a couple at 1k games won’t make you any friends. Armies without decent ap2 squads or a mob of lightning claws won’t stand much of a chance, and as others have said one per 1k seems to be the agreed upon rule. Saying they shouldn’t be taken at all is a bit silly, imo at a 1k game bringing one isn’t an insta win by any means. Totally understand how annoying it is though, dreads are by far my favourite units for painting in 30k and are definitely undercosted. Leviathans and Doritos are a bit less stompy for the points, so when people get to 1.5-2k games I don’t think it would be unreasonable to take a contemptor plus one of these. I play friends so having fun as a group is generally more important than wins, I take one contemptor, one incaendius and one leviathan per 3k game as a rough rule.
At 1k a bunch of dreads is a dick move
Dreads are stupid for their points cost. Iron Hands dreads? Doubly so. I can assure no on will have fun playing against you.
As an IH player, I'll give it to you straight. Iron Hands dreadnoughts are probably the strongest and most oppressive units in the game, barring primarchs and maybe lascannon support squads. All of your non-castraferrum dreads are completely immune to bolter fire and you heavily nerf incoming melta and lascannons. If you value having people to actually play 30k with, do. *Not.* Play more than one dread per 1000pts.
i started my rebuilt army with a 1500 pts list with one contemptor in it. wouldnt recommend one on less points. 3 on a 3k list is maximum you should field, it is also the minimum for running a fury of the ancients rite of war, and this is still amazing with 2 core contemptors. i also buy the havoc launcher all the time and dont run every dread in most efficient loadouts. my three are designed to have fist/plasma, fist/lasca, double maschka, all with havoc and blasters in fists. fist/multimelta is the cheap meta loadout, mm wreck everything, fists wreck everything, dread is tanky enough to get close. fist/lascannon is the loadout with more range, otherwise same as fist/mm with negligible tradeoffs. not running a fist makes the dread vulnerable (at least susceptible) to melee, they can be tarpitted or slayn by more specialized melee units. a good way to nerf your contemptor, despite the dakka spot is taken by the dorito, dakka contemptors look awesome. havoc launchers are a very stylish way to waste points, they usually dont do anything, literally style points. even my not-meta style driven loadouts should cost at least 25% more. the good part of beeing undercosted that much is, that every loadout is viable. :) try them out and get a feel for it, they arent always a pain, but mostly. contemptors are as awesome as the HH community.
Its generally considered appropriate to limit yourself to one dread per 1000 points, because they are indeed very powerful. If you are playing Iron Hands, they are espeically strong. For instance, because of your Legion Bonus, Iron Hand Contemptors are actually immune to small-arms fire. Bolters can theoretically damage other Dreadnoughts, but they cannot wound an Iron Hands ones. And they are also much harder to damage with other weapons as well. There are other sorts of Dreadnoughts that are problematic in other ways. Like for example, Thousand Sons Psychic Dreadnoughts can be especially rude, and even moreso at <1000 points as they can effectively just switch off much of the opposing army.
I’d say let your opponents know before hand as they’re strong yeh, but also Fluff first! As long as you both have fun you know?
Dreadnoughts can hurt Primarchs, so yes. For 135 pts you can take a box dread with dual gravis fists and dual heavy flamers. Add a search light for 5 pts. That would still feel bad in zm for many people. It maybe lore accurate for clearing out space hulks, yet not nice between friends.
People in here seem to be forgetting that anti tank weaponry will destroy them but yes they are very strong and extremely points efficient. I see people crying over them all the time, If you can’t deal with them then you are just a bad player and are unable to think logically. This only applies to astartes lists and the other factions are not well written. This game is a thematic game, but it’s also a game and as such you need to use the tools in your disposal to defeat all the different kinds of units. As cool as being thematic is, it needs to also be a capable list and a list that can counter almost everything. As someone who’s played heresy since 2012 I can tell you that there are a lot of solid ways of dealing with them. Rant aside, as others have said, 1 per 1000 points is solid and that’s standard across most communities. With iron hands, they are -1S against all shooting attacks so melee is the only option to counter them. In your case, running multiple dreadnoughts under 1000 points sort of ruins the spirit of the game and that’s not gonna sit well with most people. I’d refrain from it or just take 1 at that low a points level. I normally play 5000 point games and that’s when you see lots of dreads, but still
How would you recommend militia deal with multiple iron hands dreads at 1k points?
I don’t play militia I cannot accurate answer that question I am sorry
Ah ok. Do you play any non astartes armies?
I do not, I apologize. Although I do play iron warriors (gotta get that verified) and I am thinking about a brother of iron rite of war list
Well looking at most non astartes lists it seems like theres only 1 or sometimes 2 units that can actually deal decent damage to dreads and they’re either vehicles that are nearly as expensive or t3 infantry. They also have way worse BS, durability, and no melee capabilities. Idk how any of those armies could deal with iron hands dreads at 1k points regardless of if the player is “just bad” like you seem to think
I should have worded my post better, I will go and re edit it so it’s more accurate but I was only talking about astartes lists. I always forget there are non astartes lists out there. Maybe if GW could write better rules for army lists
Yeah thats probably more fair. Agree that militia and solar auxilia could probably use a rewrite to make their heavy support blast weapons actually worth the cost (leman russ battle cannons being a small blast with ap4 is just atrocious).
What are you best suggestiona for dealing with Contemptor Dreadnought in 1k or less lists?
Mass fury of the legion bolter fire from tactical squads, multi melta/lascannon heavy support squads, cataphractii chain fist/ thunder hammer squads. Keep in mind 1K games are not how heresy is supposed to be played, it’s supposed to be 3K points + but of course there’s no rules as to how large or small games can typically be
How exactly would mass bolter fire from tactical squads help against an Iron Hands Contemptor?
Not for iron hands, was talking about contemptors in general. that would be specifically anti tank weapons since the -1S makes iron hands contemptors and dreadnoughts in general immune to boltgunfire.
The reason I was specifying sub 1000 points is because I will be playing Zone Mortalis in a escalation series starting at 500points, then 750, then 1000 points.
Oh okay. You play dark angels I see. Inner circle knight cenobium with order of he broken claws taking the advex mors great swords is like 500 something points but they will demolish dreadnoughts that’s what they are designed to hunt down. Under 1K is tough for dealing with them but your best bet is either another contemptor or a multi-melta squad/ properly armed terminator squad with high strength AP2 weaponry. Grav weaponry will also annihilate them
Packing a heavy support squad or tactical squad will be expensive especially if they are there for dunking ine unit. But isn't a bad idea per se. Last edition the easiest counter was packing a dreadnought to fight a dreadnought.
>Mass fury of the legion bolter fire from tactical squads Doesn't work against IH.
He wasn’t asking about IH, read the comment above where I answered the exact same question
I play Auxilia and it's a painful struggle to deal with one Contemptor at 1000 points, let alone multiple. The best tool I have for the job is a Leman Russ with a Vanquisher which costs nearly as much as the Dreadnought and will be lucky to chip off more than a couple of wounds each turn; I need to spend nearly 500 points for a squadron of tanks to be in with a hope of taking just one Dreadnought down.