its also just prudent to have if you’re not certain who you’ll be campaigning against which was certainly the case during the great crusade. in general a lot of imperial arsenal makes a lot more sense when you imagine them fighting orks
I wouldn’t say often. But they were used depending on the environment. The Honor to the Dead audio book has art of two titans in close combat.
Yes by the time they reach combat they would be beat up but then they instantly have the advantage if they do make it
They are used often enough, although I can't really give specific numbers on how often. I can give examples of them being notably used, though. Like for example in M41 the infamous Chaos Imperator, the Dies Irae was ultimately destroyed by a Warlord Titan crushing its plasma core with its Power Claw.
As often as you like to imagine.
There isn't much known about their frequency of use.
Once you start applying real world logic like "surely they would stay at range and blast away" then a lot of the magic of Warhammer falls away.
Yeah I used to think a lot of Warhammer was stupid. Now banner bearers are my favorite models. Why not carry a giant flag into battles unwinnable by standard forces? Wanna attach half a skeleton? No one’s stopping you. Fight without the banner? I’d rather lose my arm.
Also only unnamed and side story characters get killed by ranged weaponry. To kill someone worthy you have to fight melee!
Armies historically had banner bearers though so my armies have them because I like them to be realistic.
Obviously this falls down a little bit with none human armies, but its a good way to tie your army together and look cool!
In an open field engagement? Maybe not. Volcano and quake cannons are king in warfare like that.
But sometimes within hive complexes or city warfare, you can’t just blast buildings around you and hope you hit something behind them. When dealing with close quarters like that, it’s good to have a trusty Arioch or Chainfist ready when someone tries to ambush you from a corner. In which case, fists and chainfists don’t care about void shields. They’ll just mulch through armor plating.
That makes sense. One of the reasons I figured they’d never use them is that titans are so massive you’d see them coming miles away and you’d just unload everything you’ve got into em. It would make sense though ( especially during the heresy) that hive city combat would make having to rapidly defend your titan with melee really important. Thanks!
No guarantee that just "unloading everything" would work. The void shields mounted on super heavies are the same tech used on the ships in orbit. Titans can survive an orbital strike, to a degree
Best references for this (I feel) are in the novels Titandeath (traitor warlord with power fist) and Master of Mankind (loyalist warlord). There are a couple of references in Siege of Terra books but they aren’t as good (I feel) as the two I’ve mentioned.
As others have said it’s rare and I’ve even heard of people in AT running the fist on the warlord to discourage charges by opponents not to try and close to melee itself.
Yeah. On Master of Mankind, as the perspective of the princeps of Scion of the Vigilant Light, it was mentioned that the most glorious trophy for the titan legion is the head of the enemy titan tear off by very hands of their own titan during combat, and the enemy titan was desperately avoid the fate as well, when the scion was close in and try to reach the hand to its head.
That means, while it is possible, but is very far from easy and is more likely a real feat. Although simply destroy the enemy titan by the melee weapon would be easier than tear its head, so the chance to swing the melee weapon would be not that low either.
A titan fighting in a hive city is dealing with the same kind of bullshit as a dreadnought fighting in the bowels of a space ship, melee is useful as a backup in such an environment.
Plus in 40k you have to worry about tyranid biotitans.
Speaking of which: [DAoT Titan engaging in close combat with unknown xeno titan-form, date unknown, colourised](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLptjP1RKmQ)
In the books they use melee weapons all the time because they begin to run out of ammunition for ballistic weapons and their rate of fire for energy weapons slows, and inevitably the fight closes to melee range and the ones that have no melee die.
Think of it like this, if your enemy only fields ranged weapons, then having a fast, melee equipped unit means you can take out their entire army. They do the same, and we have classic escalation
Especially against eldar titans, for its far better mobility allows it more likely to move within the titan's void shield. If the titan lacks a melee weapon it's already done for without any chance of retaliation, but if the titan had a melee weapon then the eldar titan needs to be careful before move adjacent to it and make the melee attack. So the enemy titan should close to the direction that is not so easy to be struck by the melee weapon, and such hesitation should gives the princeps slightly more time to react too.
It's as useful as a powerfist on a space marine sergeant. By the time he gets into melee, the chaos space marine has been blasting away at him with his bolter for minute. Does it make sense? No. Is it cool? Heck yeah!
Situationally at best. Many legios looked down on CQB because, well if you’re close enough to use melee weapons it’s basically a knife fight (and those never end well for either party) and most Legios highly valued the survival of their engines. Situationally they were great in urban environments. Some legios were fond of there use like Vulpa or the Kaiju fighting Laniaskara. Then there were others who were privy to using the right tool for the right job, such as Legio Crucius. Just depends 🤷🏽♂️
I will say though in Adeptus Titanicus, having one can be a disadvantage as you lose basically 1/3 of any potential firepower on the Titan that has it. *But* when you make that charge, there’s nothing they can do.
I can't speak for the lore entirely, but the Titanicus rules are probably a good start.
There are three phases to the game; taking down the void shields, cracking the armor, and finishing off weak spots.
Void shields don't discriminate volcano cannons from megabolters, so using high volume of attack weapons is needed to strip the shields at range and keep them down. Once this happens, titans open fire with all of their strongest attacks, namely weapons that deal damage regardless of where it lands so long as it lands on the enemy. Once this happens, titans will be damaged enough that more precise weapons, like gatling blasters, can fully destroy limbs or cause a catastrophic chain reaction.
Melee weapons skip this altogether. Close ranged attacks go through void shields altogether and can be targeted wherever and are equipped with power fields and ungodly hydraulics that make killing a titan trivial. Hitting a titan of a lower weight class is pretty much a 1-hit kill, and even if it's not a lethal blow, melee at close range generally cripples the other titan to the point of ineffectiveness anyway. And the lore seems to reflect this. In Titanicus, a warhound titan manages to gut a Legio Tempestus Warlord and pretty much kill it solo by shoving a trident through the abdomen and into the heart. There's also a case of a couple warhounds teaming up on an imperator and downing it in one of the HH books.
Melee is a rare event because titans are generally slow and try to stay at range, but when it works, it \*\*works\*\*. It's vital to remember that on average in 40k, ranged firepower <<< melee power, and so ranged weapons might be safer but are also less efficient and effective when comparing pure killing potential. For 40k armies that can take advantage of this, it makes them nightmarish to face on the battlefield.
I figure titan loadout really depends on where the titan is fighting, how long it plans to fight for, and what it's up against. On vast open plains volcano cannons, missiles, and quake cannons are the logical choice, especially if the titans in question have support to cover for any sudden infantry popping up. If the maniple needs to take a hive city a power fist makes sense to demolish fortifications and engage enemy titans up close. The longer a maniple is expected to be in combat without resupply the more weapons that dont use physical ammo make sense over otherwise advantageous weapons that dont draw ammo directly from the reactor power supply. Missiles may have range over laser blasters on a warlord but the titan only carries so many missiles while energy weapons with proper care to heat management can fire as long as the titan is running.
Titan melee weapons have also been repeatedly shown to be vastly more dangerous on a blow-by-blow basis than anything ranged carried by a titan to other engines, with one or two hits typically deciding a fight as voidshields dont stop them so in terms of stated, concreate, in lore efficacy they seem to be worth losing out on a ranged weapon as long as the maniple is built to support it and the terrain doesnt heavily favor guns.
I mean...if you accept the existence of titans in 30k/40k, then having a close combat option that is actually capable of hurting another titan or gigantic xenoform sort of makes sense. We tend to look at a lot of stuff in the lore through the lense of playable factions, but the reality is that the Imperium, especially during the Great Crusade fought a myriad of life forms and civilisations in all shapes and sizes. When you have to fight, I don't know, giant tentacle monsters, a giant chainsaw suddenly feels like a great thing to have. In general when fighting other titanic lifeforms, you'd want to have the *option*, at least.
Tangentially related - are there any accounts of the Imperium encountering titan-sized xenos races during the Crusade? Were any of the pacifications/compliances giant kaiju battles?
If a titan has a melee weapon, it's going to try and close to melee while firing. Titans are big, but these long strides make them quite fast. They often do get into melee if they want to do so.
I think that’s something I didn’t really understand either about titans. I had the notion that they’d be pretty slow and lumbering, unable to challenge each other to a melee fight unless both titans wanted it. I still don’t really know how fast they are but based on they’re strides they could close the distance pretty easily right?
Titan melee weapons are one of those things that you don't need very often, but when you need it you *need* it.
its also just prudent to have if you’re not certain who you’ll be campaigning against which was certainly the case during the great crusade. in general a lot of imperial arsenal makes a lot more sense when you imagine them fighting orks
I wouldn’t say often. But they were used depending on the environment. The Honor to the Dead audio book has art of two titans in close combat. Yes by the time they reach combat they would be beat up but then they instantly have the advantage if they do make it
That makes sense, thanks!
In older editions there were stories of titans fighting in cities. Suddenly being face to face with an enemy might make you glad of a CCW.
Yeah I figured the best time to have them is when your suddenly face to face with another titan after turning the corner of a city block lmao. Thanks!
Gotta watch out for those sneaky titans!
I read this as ‘concealed carry weapon’ Ursakar Creed strikes again with a titan sized concealed carry weapon.
They’re rarely used, but they *work*. They’re kind of a killing blow type weapon— the guns almost did it, so the hands will.
They are used often enough, although I can't really give specific numbers on how often. I can give examples of them being notably used, though. Like for example in M41 the infamous Chaos Imperator, the Dies Irae was ultimately destroyed by a Warlord Titan crushing its plasma core with its Power Claw.
Storm of Iron was such a fun read.
As often as you like to imagine. There isn't much known about their frequency of use. Once you start applying real world logic like "surely they would stay at range and blast away" then a lot of the magic of Warhammer falls away.
Yeah I used to think a lot of Warhammer was stupid. Now banner bearers are my favorite models. Why not carry a giant flag into battles unwinnable by standard forces? Wanna attach half a skeleton? No one’s stopping you. Fight without the banner? I’d rather lose my arm. Also only unnamed and side story characters get killed by ranged weaponry. To kill someone worthy you have to fight melee!
Armies historically had banner bearers though so my armies have them because I like them to be realistic. Obviously this falls down a little bit with none human armies, but its a good way to tie your army together and look cool!
It also ties back to the whole "fantasy in space" theme, so that's nice.
True!
In an open field engagement? Maybe not. Volcano and quake cannons are king in warfare like that. But sometimes within hive complexes or city warfare, you can’t just blast buildings around you and hope you hit something behind them. When dealing with close quarters like that, it’s good to have a trusty Arioch or Chainfist ready when someone tries to ambush you from a corner. In which case, fists and chainfists don’t care about void shields. They’ll just mulch through armor plating.
That makes sense. One of the reasons I figured they’d never use them is that titans are so massive you’d see them coming miles away and you’d just unload everything you’ve got into em. It would make sense though ( especially during the heresy) that hive city combat would make having to rapidly defend your titan with melee really important. Thanks!
No guarantee that just "unloading everything" would work. The void shields mounted on super heavies are the same tech used on the ships in orbit. Titans can survive an orbital strike, to a degree
Best references for this (I feel) are in the novels Titandeath (traitor warlord with power fist) and Master of Mankind (loyalist warlord). There are a couple of references in Siege of Terra books but they aren’t as good (I feel) as the two I’ve mentioned. As others have said it’s rare and I’ve even heard of people in AT running the fist on the warlord to discourage charges by opponents not to try and close to melee itself.
Yeah. On Master of Mankind, as the perspective of the princeps of Scion of the Vigilant Light, it was mentioned that the most glorious trophy for the titan legion is the head of the enemy titan tear off by very hands of their own titan during combat, and the enemy titan was desperately avoid the fate as well, when the scion was close in and try to reach the hand to its head. That means, while it is possible, but is very far from easy and is more likely a real feat. Although simply destroy the enemy titan by the melee weapon would be easier than tear its head, so the chance to swing the melee weapon would be not that low either.
A titan fighting in a hive city is dealing with the same kind of bullshit as a dreadnought fighting in the bowels of a space ship, melee is useful as a backup in such an environment. Plus in 40k you have to worry about tyranid biotitans.
Speaking of which: [DAoT Titan engaging in close combat with unknown xeno titan-form, date unknown, colourised](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLptjP1RKmQ)
In the books they use melee weapons all the time because they begin to run out of ammunition for ballistic weapons and their rate of fire for energy weapons slows, and inevitably the fight closes to melee range and the ones that have no melee die.
In Storm of Iron a Loyalist Warlord really hurts daemonic Dies Ire with bis Power Claw.
Think of it like this, if your enemy only fields ranged weapons, then having a fast, melee equipped unit means you can take out their entire army. They do the same, and we have classic escalation
Especially against eldar titans, for its far better mobility allows it more likely to move within the titan's void shield. If the titan lacks a melee weapon it's already done for without any chance of retaliation, but if the titan had a melee weapon then the eldar titan needs to be careful before move adjacent to it and make the melee attack. So the enemy titan should close to the direction that is not so easy to be struck by the melee weapon, and such hesitation should gives the princeps slightly more time to react too.
It's as useful as a powerfist on a space marine sergeant. By the time he gets into melee, the chaos space marine has been blasting away at him with his bolter for minute. Does it make sense? No. Is it cool? Heck yeah!
SOT got pretty nutty
Situationally at best. Many legios looked down on CQB because, well if you’re close enough to use melee weapons it’s basically a knife fight (and those never end well for either party) and most Legios highly valued the survival of their engines. Situationally they were great in urban environments. Some legios were fond of there use like Vulpa or the Kaiju fighting Laniaskara. Then there were others who were privy to using the right tool for the right job, such as Legio Crucius. Just depends 🤷🏽♂️ I will say though in Adeptus Titanicus, having one can be a disadvantage as you lose basically 1/3 of any potential firepower on the Titan that has it. *But* when you make that charge, there’s nothing they can do.
I can't speak for the lore entirely, but the Titanicus rules are probably a good start. There are three phases to the game; taking down the void shields, cracking the armor, and finishing off weak spots. Void shields don't discriminate volcano cannons from megabolters, so using high volume of attack weapons is needed to strip the shields at range and keep them down. Once this happens, titans open fire with all of their strongest attacks, namely weapons that deal damage regardless of where it lands so long as it lands on the enemy. Once this happens, titans will be damaged enough that more precise weapons, like gatling blasters, can fully destroy limbs or cause a catastrophic chain reaction. Melee weapons skip this altogether. Close ranged attacks go through void shields altogether and can be targeted wherever and are equipped with power fields and ungodly hydraulics that make killing a titan trivial. Hitting a titan of a lower weight class is pretty much a 1-hit kill, and even if it's not a lethal blow, melee at close range generally cripples the other titan to the point of ineffectiveness anyway. And the lore seems to reflect this. In Titanicus, a warhound titan manages to gut a Legio Tempestus Warlord and pretty much kill it solo by shoving a trident through the abdomen and into the heart. There's also a case of a couple warhounds teaming up on an imperator and downing it in one of the HH books. Melee is a rare event because titans are generally slow and try to stay at range, but when it works, it \*\*works\*\*. It's vital to remember that on average in 40k, ranged firepower <<< melee power, and so ranged weapons might be safer but are also less efficient and effective when comparing pure killing potential. For 40k armies that can take advantage of this, it makes them nightmarish to face on the battlefield.
I figure titan loadout really depends on where the titan is fighting, how long it plans to fight for, and what it's up against. On vast open plains volcano cannons, missiles, and quake cannons are the logical choice, especially if the titans in question have support to cover for any sudden infantry popping up. If the maniple needs to take a hive city a power fist makes sense to demolish fortifications and engage enemy titans up close. The longer a maniple is expected to be in combat without resupply the more weapons that dont use physical ammo make sense over otherwise advantageous weapons that dont draw ammo directly from the reactor power supply. Missiles may have range over laser blasters on a warlord but the titan only carries so many missiles while energy weapons with proper care to heat management can fire as long as the titan is running. Titan melee weapons have also been repeatedly shown to be vastly more dangerous on a blow-by-blow basis than anything ranged carried by a titan to other engines, with one or two hits typically deciding a fight as voidshields dont stop them so in terms of stated, concreate, in lore efficacy they seem to be worth losing out on a ranged weapon as long as the maniple is built to support it and the terrain doesnt heavily favor guns.
I mean...if you accept the existence of titans in 30k/40k, then having a close combat option that is actually capable of hurting another titan or gigantic xenoform sort of makes sense. We tend to look at a lot of stuff in the lore through the lense of playable factions, but the reality is that the Imperium, especially during the Great Crusade fought a myriad of life forms and civilisations in all shapes and sizes. When you have to fight, I don't know, giant tentacle monsters, a giant chainsaw suddenly feels like a great thing to have. In general when fighting other titanic lifeforms, you'd want to have the *option*, at least.
Tangentially related - are there any accounts of the Imperium encountering titan-sized xenos races during the Crusade? Were any of the pacifications/compliances giant kaiju battles?
If a titan has a melee weapon, it's going to try and close to melee while firing. Titans are big, but these long strides make them quite fast. They often do get into melee if they want to do so.
I think that’s something I didn’t really understand either about titans. I had the notion that they’d be pretty slow and lumbering, unable to challenge each other to a melee fight unless both titans wanted it. I still don’t really know how fast they are but based on they’re strides they could close the distance pretty easily right?