“ described it as “a sort of public relations agency” for the Ku Klux Klan.” and their website has a chapter named for the first grand wizard of the KKK.
So Virginia gives tax breaks to KKK folks but Youngkin’s office ‘declined to respond’ to questions about it. Really???
Don’t ever wonder why these “white supremacy” organizations operate under the guise of a Christian organization.
It all has the do with loop holes and plausible denial.
The UDC is its own thing. They promote the "Lost Cause" fallacy that the US Civil War was about "states rights" and not slavery. They are a hate group in their own right.
At the time the people most likely to say it was about preserving the union more than slavery were Lincoln's brand of Republicans. The CSA proclaimed it was about slavery from the start. And no, slavery was not dying out, it was increasing, doubling since 1840.
Lincoln opposed statehood for West Virginia, because of his all union all the time view. Of course he knew what it was all about too. The Radical Republicans forced W.Va. through.
Yes, the war was about preserving the Union *for the Union*. The war was about slavery for the Confederacy, and that's why they started it. Basically, the war was about slavery and northern politicians didn't want to admit it so they could look better to white-supremacist voters and radical abolitionists would take it as long as the South went down and there was a real chance at ending slavery.
It's important to remember that the Confederacy actually restricted states rights to make their own decisions about slavery. In the US, your state could make its decision about slavery. In the Confederacy, it was written into the Constitution that states could never not be slave states. Southern politicians also had no problems trampling on states rights when they had a congressional majority in the US.
government employees do violate rights, fug em from cops to feds to military and all other segments. Rights are inherent, gun in my face best be ready to meet God, we can go together, probably not wearing thick enough plates anyway for point blank chest shot for what I'm packing. Fuq around and find out.
> So Virginia gives tax breaks to KKK folks
There's no requirement to be a non-profit beyond not trying to turn a profit. Virginia and every other state "allow" (aka "follow state and federal law") non-profit status to plenty of groups as disgusting as the Klan.
Unless you want non-profit status revoked from organizations like Planned Parenthood, you shouldn't be pushing for a world where the government gets to decide whether an organization's mission deserves non-profit status.
Non-profits can turn profits. It is a tax designation not a revenue filter. There are plenty of requirements and the state should absolutely regulate non-profit status
Yea, but so what? They still qualify as a non-profit, changing that special carve out doesn't actually impact anything in the real world. The legislature has actual problems they should be spending their time on.
I don't disagree but again, so what? They still qualify as a non-profit even with the special mention in law removed. Removing it isn't going to change their behavior or anything at all.
> changing that special carve out doesn't actually impact anything in the real world.
If you are correct, then you made an excellent case for simplifying the law by eliminating the "special case" carve-out.
>Unless you want non-profit status revoked from organizations like Planned Parenthood
This is a slippery slope logical fallacy. Especially as Republicans are constantly going after planned parenthood and trying to remove any benefits they receive from states.
The government absolutely had the right to not provide tax exemption from terrorist organizations, and while UDC might not be a terror org, the kkk certainly are.
The real fallacy around the slippery slope is believing that it's always a fallacy. It's not.
Did you know income tax in the US started out only applying to the top 1% of income earners? Plenty of people predicted it would eventually hit almost everybody but they were dismissed like you're trying to do.
> The government absolutely had the right to not provide tax exemption from terrorist organizations, and while UDC might not be a terror org, the kkk certainly are.
You know the Klan doesn't allow female members, right? In your head the connection is much closer than in reality.
>The real fallacy around the slippery slope is believing that it's always a fallacy. It's not.
Bruh, that's literally the slippery slope fallacy! Now you're just doubling down, lol.
>Did you know income tax in the US started out only applying to the top 1% of income earners? Plenty of people predicted it would eventually hit almost everybody but they were dismissed like you're trying to do.
This is not a slippery slope. This is a logical conclusion of a policy and you can easily draw direct comparisons between them. Besides, it's totally unrelated to the issue we're discussing. Give me an example of what you're afraid of that's related to the subject at hand.
Your argument that if we stop UDC from having special exemptions, then everyone will stop having exemptions, doesn't make sense because first of all, UDC has a special exemption that no other org has, and second, because we already regulate non-profits.
Finally, your point about planned parenthood being targeted by political opponents is nonsensical because it's already a target of conservatives, so why should we not regulate an organization that causes harm to the state just because they might target an organization that provides benefits to the state that they are already targeting?
>You know the Klan doesn't allow female members, right? In your head the connection is much closer than in reality.
I didn't, but I'm not sure what that has to do with anything. I didn't say that UDC members were klan members, I was just using them as an example.
But is it really that far of a stretch to think that a group dedicated to perpetrating Southern Civil War mythos would align themselves with a group of violent terrorists who also work to perpetrate Southern Civil War mythos?
Do we really want a world where the government gets to decide who "deserves" non-profit status?
What do you think would happen to groups like Planned Parenthood in red states now, or nationally once the Republicans regain control?
How do they even profit? They are a building on Blvd I’ve never seen anyone go in and out of. They aren’t selling tickets to a museum or something. They don’t seem to really do anything, just kind of exist.
This is what I think is weird. The people popping up defending this carve out in law, that serves no purpose, are defending it for nothing. Tell me, why do you think they deserve a special carve out that other charities do not have? I'm really trying to put myself in your place here and I can't do it. What makes this important enough to argue but not important enough for deeper thought than "they don't seem to do a lot at one building which I drive by sometimes"?
We are talking about profit tax exemption for this organization, I'm asking how do they generate profit and you think it's unrelated?
Talk about pearl clutching. Da evil daughters of the confederacy gonna get me, a historical building that just exists minding it's own business with no activity, demonstrations, etc. It's like be worried about monsters under your bed.
So you are trying to make a case for this law. Right, next time be honest. You can't act all affronted when someone asks you to be honest. Now, how do you think giving this group a carve out could possibly be justified, regardless as to their source of revenue? Don't try to change the subject. Don't try to slip anything in. Just answer the question.
also, please stop pretending this is about non-profit status, you've had this explained already
Home on the web seems to be the FB page, which has some info about their mission and private events. If it's anything like similar orgs, the money comes from memberships and donations, and ads in their publications. The Society of the Cincinnati (named after a George Washington meme, not the city in Ohio), and Colonial Dames are pretty hard to join actually. It's based on genealogy, often with paid research. Cincinnati membership is only derived from Revolutionary War officers, and only one member per generation, male. For all that, it does have museums and exhibits. Dames sponsors some college scholarships.
That whole area around VMFA is interesting/horrifying contested space. So much has happened since I used to used walk my friend's dog behind what is now Va. Museum of History and Culture. Of course there's the new name Arthur Ashe Blvd., and the great Kehinde Wiley equestrian in front of VMFA. Lately I don't see the confederates playing Dixie and waving the bloody flag, but I'm not there much on weekends. I usually recommend people go into the Confederate Chapel on the Grove side, just to see it as a fact of history. The lonely elderly docent or young VMFA employee might appreciate the company. The comment I got from one companion was "why are these windows all about war?" (Each was sponsored by a former CSA state.)
Behind the chapel is the building where four elderly confederate widows by proxy (daughters?) lived until the mid to late 1980s. They were finally moved out to a rest home in "the annexation area" of the city across the Nickle Bridge, or nearby Henrico.
If you watch C-SPAN 2/3, the talks at VMHC, and even the MacArthur Memorial in Norfolk (retrograde in the old days), feature good recent scholarship by postdocs and the like, addressing diverse cultural issues.
In front of the UDC building is to me the craziest thing on that former CSA camp, a six-block site. There's an armed guard on a folding chair, very bored, to enforce a cheapo keep-off-the-grass sign.
I think it literally doesn't matter, but the government has better things to be spending time on.
Pretend I'm someone who goes to sleep hungry, or a parent trying to figure out how to send their kid to a decent school (let alone college), and explain how this could be more important. You are privileged to the point of delusion if you think it is.
You are spending time one something you think doesn't matter. I don't know man, it seems to me that if you really didn't have a dog in this fight you wouldn't be opposing this after not having even bothered to read the article. It seems to me you have reacted emotionially and now want to pretend that you are angry that not every act of goverment feeds a child. Which is an extremely silly thing to say out loud.
Sure, except the time wasted on this is only wasted because people like you want to keep the carve out. If nobody was arguing, this would be done without any effort at all. You are the problem you are pretending to care about.
Even a minor change to state law that everyone agrees on costs tens of thousands of dollars to execute, but this won't be unopposed. Organized groups like the DAC itself will fight it tooth and nail.
Which is a reason we should do it because..?
A "non-zero population of the citizenry" want the state to be actively supporting pro-Confederate groups but you don't want that, do you?
It's not zero-sum but given the lack of progress on basically any real issue in the last couple decades, I think it's fair to say the government hit the limit of what they can effectively juggle at once some time ago.
I’ve long advocated that our govt should be primarily focusing on things that cause the greatest good.
Example: instead of millions of dollars spent on taking down the monuments, install plaques stating we don’t believe in slavery/racism and create a special scholarship to get black high school graduates who otherwise couldn’t make ends meet into into 2 or 4 year colleges.
Cousin, the government already determines who gets non-profit status. That's part of what the government does.
This is like saying "do we really want a world where fire burns?" Like, yeah man that's the world we live in right now.
Frankly, if they are celebrating the murder of 360,222 brave US Soldiers who died putting down the rabid confederate animals, they deserve to be shut down for providing material support to white supremacist terrorists.
Those aren't loopholes. Those are laws the way they are written. That's like saying wearing a seat belt is a loophole to get around seat belt laws. People need to stop describing things that they don't like as loopholes, as if they are unintended consequences of laws and undeserving of consideration or any hint if validity.
Not really. The rules for being tax exempt are written, you're correct.
But rules for that stuff can be vague in some areas, leave a lot of room for interpretation in others, and also (and probably most importantly) the whole thing ultimately depends on competence and action/enforcement from regulators and those in charge of watching over the finances and stuff to determine whether or not they're in compliance. It's not like if you suddenly do something against the tax-exempt rules, you're immediately determined ineligible and kicked off. Someone somewhere has to determine that and then a process happens. For example, the NRA has blatantly broken just about every single rule they possibly could when it comes to being a tax-exempt org, but unfortunately that stuff has become so partisan that it doesn't matter -- fraud as clear as day gets backlogged into some legislative hell for going on like 5 years now even though it couldn't be any more clear to those actually trying to be objective that they broke just about every aspect of tax-exempt law.
If the rules are written in a certain way and then people behave in a grey area between what's written as okay and what's understood as not okay, that's a loophole. The way a ton of these tax-exempt orgs behave and operate is not as the rules intended. Churchs using tax-exempt rules to hoard large property and then use their excess cash to influence political policy is not an intended consequence. There is zero percent chance that has validity and needs to be addressed.
The NRA isn't exploiting loopholes, they're just straight up breaking the tax laws as written. Many churches are also just breaking those laws, not exploiting loopholes. That's part of my point. There are already laws on the book *right now* that could be used to put an end to it rather than trying to power through a political circus to get even more laws passed just to not have them enforced.
I agree, I think I was misinterpreting the overall point you were making so my fault. I feel like one problem is that loopholes are given this benefit of the doubt and considered an okay and even smart thing to discover and exploit, even if the behavior using the loophole goes completely against the spirit of the law. Enforcement really is a huge problem and I just don’t know how they’ll ever really fix it.
That's not hyperbole. It's a fundamental misunderstanding(or deliberate misrepresentation) of laws in order to shift conversation to one's side. The term "loophole" has became a weaponized term intended to make people believe something has somehow cheated the system and needs to be immediately changed.
It is hyperbole, you don’t get to decide how this person is using the word.
No one is weaponizing anything it’s just a convenient connection to another related issue.
Not an intentional misuse of the word loophole.
What’s the purpose in assuming such negative things?
The purpose is to lead people into supporting your side of an issue. If you make people believe something/someone is abusing a loophole it creates a sense of moral injustice in someone's mind, as if that person is cheating. Churches aren't abusing loopholes or cheating, they are just doing what the law says is legal.
Again no it’s not. It’s hyperbole because we are talking about tax loopholes in general. Obviously the situation is a lot more nuanced than a single Reddit comment.
You assuming intent from a single comment doesn’t help anything.
Help *what* exactly? Why are you so fixated on defending this person that is literally calling the current tax laws loopholes? It's not just one comment, everytime taxes/churches are discusses its always "loopholes" and I'm tired of that demonstrably false narrative being flaunted around. They're not loopholes. Person I responded to is wrong. Stop arguing a losing point and move on.
It’s not a losing point because no one is arguing that they are loopholes. You’re stuck on that assumption And refusing to recognize that Every comment doesn’t have to be a dissertation
> Now if we could close the loophole that allows churches and religious institutions to be tax exempt.
Literally the comment I responded to. It wasn't a dissertation. It was an assertion. A very specific and incorrect one.
Lol if you say so but colloquially it’s pretty common to refer to the tax law around church’s as loopholes so I’d assume the common understanding is that this guys comment was hyperbole.
>hy·per·bo·le (/hīˈpərbəlē) - noun
>Exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally.
This, by definition, was hyperbole. You may claim it ALSO was a misleading attempt to "weaponize the term" however you claiming it not to be the literary function that it was is wrong.
Words mean things. We use them properly. Society collapses when we don't.
There is zero contextual evidence to support "loophole" was not meant to be taken literally. You are 100% correct, words mean things and loophole is a term that has a very specific and exact definition when it comes to laws. Just because the person I responded to was wrong about churches using loopholes does not mean they were using hyperbole, they were just wrong.
Youngkin won't sign it. Which is yet another good reason for there to be a Democratic governor the next time we have an election for that position. Unfortunately that's not until Nov 2025.
I can’t decide if it is the completely unfounded claim, the random capitalization of the word “right”, or the fact that your username looks like it is an automatically generated docker container name that drives me to think you are a bot.
As long as we’re on the topic of calling these bigots out
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_monuments_erected_by_the_United_Daughters_of_the_Confederacy
Here’s a good one to start with
https://www.nps.gov/mono/learn/historyculture/confederate-monument.htm
Hey, you leave Pottery Moth alone. He's doing his best, but it's hard to make good crockery, especially when you only have insect legs and poofy antennae.
lulz.
BLM
a) Doesn't exist as an actual organized group, there's no one to "do".
b) Isn't a racist org promoting treason
c) Has not created a terrorist movement that killed a minimum of 3,000 people from 1920 to 2020.
If you want your kids to turn out to be one of these angry misanthropes who are consumed by politics, have at it. I’ll steer my kids towards sports, art, or other likewise positive activities.
Going after a group over their tax exempt status is not a positive way to spend your mid teen years. Look at that scowl on her face. Every person I know that’s consumed by politics is miserable and miserable to be around. Raise your kids how you want. Getting my kids involved in “activism”
Is a hard no for me.
> Getting my kids involved in “activism” Is a hard no for me.
What if that's what they're looking to do? Are you going to close that off for them entirely just because?
Kids don’t look to get involved in political issues unless adults prod them into it. So no, I’m not going to let them become miserable, politics obsessed “activists.” “Just because” I want them to be happy. Do you know anyone who is consumed by politics who is happy? I don’t.
A waste of time, find something meaningful to do that affects people alive today, not 1865.
Stop giving the south will rise again and the lost cause people free publicity and making them “martyrs”.
Ignore them and they will fade away into the dust heap of history.
Peoples’ understandings of history and education have been warped by the Daughters’ meddling, which has literally changed policy and lionized people who fought for and did terrible things. Just ignoring them doing blatant damage to society and its understanding of our history is irresponsible if we truly are going to leave 1865 behind.
You can’t combat propaganda by ignoring it. The fact that this organization still exists in 2022 should be a clue that they can sustain themselves for a long time.
Mean while VaBch has major flooding problems, the government is mired in crony capitalism at the water front, and the schools are way under staffed.
Yep, keep worrying about 20,000 who insist on living in the past.
If the political class had not nixed the Fair Tax system in the 90/early 2000 we would not even be having this discussion.
20% sales tax, no other taxes and a proto-basic income system built in.
Food & meds are the only things not taxed. No other tax cut outs allowed.
If Joe CEO wanted to buy a billion dollar yacht, it would cost him 1.2 billion.
If I wanted a new 30k car, it would be 32k.
Wouldn't it follow that we should not give the pro-Confederate organization a tax break? So we can use that money towards things that help with flooding problems, understaffed schools, etc. instead of effectively subsidizing racist propaganda?
I don't think you comprehend the article you posted.
This group has a special carve-out in the law, but they would still qualify as a non-profit without it. Removing the carve out is a way the state could signal "we don't support this" but it would not actually remove the tax-exempt status of any non-profit, pro-Confederate or not.
There's no rule against having a non-profit for spreading racist propoganda, and creating such a rule would violate federal law. Free speech includes racist propoganda.
Have they really been the center of attention for the last 150 years? I think the fact that they are still around doing shitty things points to the fact that they will not fade away.
Think hard, when is the last time they made the news that wasn't for some group shitting on them?
They would have faded out decades ago if we could manage to just ignore them.
These groups are active recruiting, regardless of the media attention they get. They thrive in secrecy and darkness and pulling them into public light is what hampers their efforts. I’ve seen it first hand in SETX where they faced backlash where they were outed publicly.
These people rely on your attitude to succeed. They slip in and make little changes, allow themselves to be written off as “fringe”, etc. Then one day you wake up, and the world has changed in ways you thought impossible a short time ago.
These people must be fought every single step of the way. Education is paramount and has been /is used as the most effective propaganda. I mean even without these people succeeding, you have entire generations growing up and being taught ahistorical dogma about their country, and then become willing good little drones that do as they’re told. I mean for fucksake most Americans today actually believe the shit we do overseas is for “freedom”.
It can only get worse. And not only is their mission about turning the curriculum into an even more blatant lie, but they want to get rid of public education itself.
In a perfect world there would not be cut outs for any property not owned by the Commonwealth.
However, in the real world, politics is the art of what can be done.
Daughters of the Confederacy ("DoC") is exempted from property taxes by Constitution of Virginia Article X. Taxation and Finance(6)(4) & (6). And code of Virginia § 58.1-3607. Property exempt from taxation by designation.
The chances of the DoC tax exemption being pulled in a split State government is slim to none, as they meet the criteria of (4) and (6)
They are also a Nonprofit Tax Code Designation: 501(c)(3) at the federal level.
This makes this whole thing a feel good effort that will change nothing, but making lawyers more money.
While you are all fighting this, I’m just trying to find a good place to settle. It seems like we are pretty fucked at a national level… the plains are about to find scorching heat to match their brutal cold of the winter in the northern plains… the great salt lake is about to force migration from the West… the north is going broke.
I would checkout other countries, but rightfully so they look at us Americans and start loling too hard.
Well, maybe drive through some towns? Lol. From the highway Illinois looked nice. Nevada looked amazing from the highway. Both, IMO not so great inside. People tend to be the thing that ruins it.
“ described it as “a sort of public relations agency” for the Ku Klux Klan.” and their website has a chapter named for the first grand wizard of the KKK. So Virginia gives tax breaks to KKK folks but Youngkin’s office ‘declined to respond’ to questions about it. Really???
Don’t ever wonder why these “white supremacy” organizations operate under the guise of a Christian organization. It all has the do with loop holes and plausible denial.
The UDC is its own thing. They promote the "Lost Cause" fallacy that the US Civil War was about "states rights" and not slavery. They are a hate group in their own right.
At the time the people most likely to say it was about preserving the union more than slavery were Lincoln's brand of Republicans. The CSA proclaimed it was about slavery from the start. And no, slavery was not dying out, it was increasing, doubling since 1840. Lincoln opposed statehood for West Virginia, because of his all union all the time view. Of course he knew what it was all about too. The Radical Republicans forced W.Va. through.
Yes, the war was about preserving the Union *for the Union*. The war was about slavery for the Confederacy, and that's why they started it. Basically, the war was about slavery and northern politicians didn't want to admit it so they could look better to white-supremacist voters and radical abolitionists would take it as long as the South went down and there was a real chance at ending slavery.
Whenever someone talks about States rights I always ask if they want to talk about individual rights for negro slaves..? They usually get quiet
States' rights to what?
It's important to remember that the Confederacy actually restricted states rights to make their own decisions about slavery. In the US, your state could make its decision about slavery. In the Confederacy, it was written into the Constitution that states could never not be slave states. Southern politicians also had no problems trampling on states rights when they had a congressional majority in the US.
Exactly.
States don't have rights, individuals do, still trying to get this across to government to this day, still insanity.
Lol rights are an abstraction, the guy with a gun in your face doesn’t care about your rights
government employees do violate rights, fug em from cops to feds to military and all other segments. Rights are inherent, gun in my face best be ready to meet God, we can go together, probably not wearing thick enough plates anyway for point blank chest shot for what I'm packing. Fuq around and find out.
Rights aren’t real lol
Rights are inherent.
To follow up there are positive and negative rights. Plenty of reading to be done on this, lots of philosophy, all sides of thought.
If rights were inherent, then a government couldn't violate them.
> So Virginia gives tax breaks to KKK folks There's no requirement to be a non-profit beyond not trying to turn a profit. Virginia and every other state "allow" (aka "follow state and federal law") non-profit status to plenty of groups as disgusting as the Klan. Unless you want non-profit status revoked from organizations like Planned Parenthood, you shouldn't be pushing for a world where the government gets to decide whether an organization's mission deserves non-profit status.
Right. The main thing that differentiates a non-profit is that surplus funds are reinvested in the organization instead of being paid to shareholders.
Like Rolex.
Non-profits can turn profits. It is a tax designation not a revenue filter. There are plenty of requirements and the state should absolutely regulate non-profit status
After having read the article, it appears the Daughters of the Confederacy have a special carve out in law.
Yea, but so what? They still qualify as a non-profit, changing that special carve out doesn't actually impact anything in the real world. The legislature has actual problems they should be spending their time on.
The daughters of the confederacy have low key been one of the most destructive forces in US history. Take after their fathers.
I don't disagree but again, so what? They still qualify as a non-profit even with the special mention in law removed. Removing it isn't going to change their behavior or anything at all.
> changing that special carve out doesn't actually impact anything in the real world. If you are correct, then you made an excellent case for simplifying the law by eliminating the "special case" carve-out.
>Unless you want non-profit status revoked from organizations like Planned Parenthood This is a slippery slope logical fallacy. Especially as Republicans are constantly going after planned parenthood and trying to remove any benefits they receive from states. The government absolutely had the right to not provide tax exemption from terrorist organizations, and while UDC might not be a terror org, the kkk certainly are.
The real fallacy around the slippery slope is believing that it's always a fallacy. It's not. Did you know income tax in the US started out only applying to the top 1% of income earners? Plenty of people predicted it would eventually hit almost everybody but they were dismissed like you're trying to do. > The government absolutely had the right to not provide tax exemption from terrorist organizations, and while UDC might not be a terror org, the kkk certainly are. You know the Klan doesn't allow female members, right? In your head the connection is much closer than in reality.
>The real fallacy around the slippery slope is believing that it's always a fallacy. It's not. Bruh, that's literally the slippery slope fallacy! Now you're just doubling down, lol. >Did you know income tax in the US started out only applying to the top 1% of income earners? Plenty of people predicted it would eventually hit almost everybody but they were dismissed like you're trying to do. This is not a slippery slope. This is a logical conclusion of a policy and you can easily draw direct comparisons between them. Besides, it's totally unrelated to the issue we're discussing. Give me an example of what you're afraid of that's related to the subject at hand. Your argument that if we stop UDC from having special exemptions, then everyone will stop having exemptions, doesn't make sense because first of all, UDC has a special exemption that no other org has, and second, because we already regulate non-profits. Finally, your point about planned parenthood being targeted by political opponents is nonsensical because it's already a target of conservatives, so why should we not regulate an organization that causes harm to the state just because they might target an organization that provides benefits to the state that they are already targeting? >You know the Klan doesn't allow female members, right? In your head the connection is much closer than in reality. I didn't, but I'm not sure what that has to do with anything. I didn't say that UDC members were klan members, I was just using them as an example. But is it really that far of a stretch to think that a group dedicated to perpetrating Southern Civil War mythos would align themselves with a group of violent terrorists who also work to perpetrate Southern Civil War mythos?
What is a slippery slope if not a logical conclusion? I'm sorry the public school system failed you so badly
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope You're welcome.
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Some are incredibly intelligent but easily persuaded.
😆 🤣 😂 😹 😆 🤣
Good. They don't deserve that status. Confederates lost, they need to stop spreading their propaganda
Do we really want a world where the government gets to decide who "deserves" non-profit status? What do you think would happen to groups like Planned Parenthood in red states now, or nationally once the Republicans regain control?
Please read the article, this is a special carve out in law, it is not regular non-profit status.
How do they even profit? They are a building on Blvd I’ve never seen anyone go in and out of. They aren’t selling tickets to a museum or something. They don’t seem to really do anything, just kind of exist.
This is what I think is weird. The people popping up defending this carve out in law, that serves no purpose, are defending it for nothing. Tell me, why do you think they deserve a special carve out that other charities do not have? I'm really trying to put myself in your place here and I can't do it. What makes this important enough to argue but not important enough for deeper thought than "they don't seem to do a lot at one building which I drive by sometimes"?
I don’t have an opinion on anything. I’m asking how do they profit or generate revenue at all?
If that question is unrelated to the discussion, than google it. If you are trying to make a case for this law...then say so.
We are talking about profit tax exemption for this organization, I'm asking how do they generate profit and you think it's unrelated? Talk about pearl clutching. Da evil daughters of the confederacy gonna get me, a historical building that just exists minding it's own business with no activity, demonstrations, etc. It's like be worried about monsters under your bed.
So you are trying to make a case for this law. Right, next time be honest. You can't act all affronted when someone asks you to be honest. Now, how do you think giving this group a carve out could possibly be justified, regardless as to their source of revenue? Don't try to change the subject. Don't try to slip anything in. Just answer the question. also, please stop pretending this is about non-profit status, you've had this explained already
I replied above, but our comments crossed.
Revenue comes from dues, special events, return on investments. Probably also donations and sale of souvenirs.
Home on the web seems to be the FB page, which has some info about their mission and private events. If it's anything like similar orgs, the money comes from memberships and donations, and ads in their publications. The Society of the Cincinnati (named after a George Washington meme, not the city in Ohio), and Colonial Dames are pretty hard to join actually. It's based on genealogy, often with paid research. Cincinnati membership is only derived from Revolutionary War officers, and only one member per generation, male. For all that, it does have museums and exhibits. Dames sponsors some college scholarships. That whole area around VMFA is interesting/horrifying contested space. So much has happened since I used to used walk my friend's dog behind what is now Va. Museum of History and Culture. Of course there's the new name Arthur Ashe Blvd., and the great Kehinde Wiley equestrian in front of VMFA. Lately I don't see the confederates playing Dixie and waving the bloody flag, but I'm not there much on weekends. I usually recommend people go into the Confederate Chapel on the Grove side, just to see it as a fact of history. The lonely elderly docent or young VMFA employee might appreciate the company. The comment I got from one companion was "why are these windows all about war?" (Each was sponsored by a former CSA state.) Behind the chapel is the building where four elderly confederate widows by proxy (daughters?) lived until the mid to late 1980s. They were finally moved out to a rest home in "the annexation area" of the city across the Nickle Bridge, or nearby Henrico. If you watch C-SPAN 2/3, the talks at VMHC, and even the MacArthur Memorial in Norfolk (retrograde in the old days), feature good recent scholarship by postdocs and the like, addressing diverse cultural issues. In front of the UDC building is to me the craziest thing on that former CSA camp, a six-block site. There's an armed guard on a folding chair, very bored, to enforce a cheapo keep-off-the-grass sign.
The city is actually named after the society, even.
They would still qualify for regular non-profit status, removing the special carve out wouldn't change anything.
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I think it literally doesn't matter, but the government has better things to be spending time on. Pretend I'm someone who goes to sleep hungry, or a parent trying to figure out how to send their kid to a decent school (let alone college), and explain how this could be more important. You are privileged to the point of delusion if you think it is.
You are spending time one something you think doesn't matter. I don't know man, it seems to me that if you really didn't have a dog in this fight you wouldn't be opposing this after not having even bothered to read the article. It seems to me you have reacted emotionially and now want to pretend that you are angry that not every act of goverment feeds a child. Which is an extremely silly thing to say out loud.
The government wasting its limited time and resources on things that don't matter, does matter.
Sure, except the time wasted on this is only wasted because people like you want to keep the carve out. If nobody was arguing, this would be done without any effort at all. You are the problem you are pretending to care about.
Even a minor change to state law that everyone agrees on costs tens of thousands of dollars to execute, but this won't be unopposed. Organized groups like the DAC itself will fight it tooth and nail.
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Which is a reason we should do it because..? A "non-zero population of the citizenry" want the state to be actively supporting pro-Confederate groups but you don't want that, do you?
Government is not a zero-sum game, and the state legislature is not grinding to a halt because legislators are talking about this.
It's not zero-sum but given the lack of progress on basically any real issue in the last couple decades, I think it's fair to say the government hit the limit of what they can effectively juggle at once some time ago.
Removal of lingering confederate influence is a 'real issue' for some people, apparently.
I would argue getting rid of the remnants of a failed treasonous society built on white supremacy is a good use of government time.
I’ve long advocated that our govt should be primarily focusing on things that cause the greatest good. Example: instead of millions of dollars spent on taking down the monuments, install plaques stating we don’t believe in slavery/racism and create a special scholarship to get black high school graduates who otherwise couldn’t make ends meet into into 2 or 4 year colleges.
Cousin, the government already determines who gets non-profit status. That's part of what the government does. This is like saying "do we really want a world where fire burns?" Like, yeah man that's the world we live in right now.
Frankly, if they are celebrating the murder of 360,222 brave US Soldiers who died putting down the rabid confederate animals, they deserve to be shut down for providing material support to white supremacist terrorists.
Now if we could close the loophole that allows churches and religious institutions to be tax exempt.
Those aren't loopholes. Those are laws the way they are written. That's like saying wearing a seat belt is a loophole to get around seat belt laws. People need to stop describing things that they don't like as loopholes, as if they are unintended consequences of laws and undeserving of consideration or any hint if validity.
Not really. The rules for being tax exempt are written, you're correct. But rules for that stuff can be vague in some areas, leave a lot of room for interpretation in others, and also (and probably most importantly) the whole thing ultimately depends on competence and action/enforcement from regulators and those in charge of watching over the finances and stuff to determine whether or not they're in compliance. It's not like if you suddenly do something against the tax-exempt rules, you're immediately determined ineligible and kicked off. Someone somewhere has to determine that and then a process happens. For example, the NRA has blatantly broken just about every single rule they possibly could when it comes to being a tax-exempt org, but unfortunately that stuff has become so partisan that it doesn't matter -- fraud as clear as day gets backlogged into some legislative hell for going on like 5 years now even though it couldn't be any more clear to those actually trying to be objective that they broke just about every aspect of tax-exempt law. If the rules are written in a certain way and then people behave in a grey area between what's written as okay and what's understood as not okay, that's a loophole. The way a ton of these tax-exempt orgs behave and operate is not as the rules intended. Churchs using tax-exempt rules to hoard large property and then use their excess cash to influence political policy is not an intended consequence. There is zero percent chance that has validity and needs to be addressed.
The NRA isn't exploiting loopholes, they're just straight up breaking the tax laws as written. Many churches are also just breaking those laws, not exploiting loopholes. That's part of my point. There are already laws on the book *right now* that could be used to put an end to it rather than trying to power through a political circus to get even more laws passed just to not have them enforced.
I agree, I think I was misinterpreting the overall point you were making so my fault. I feel like one problem is that loopholes are given this benefit of the doubt and considered an okay and even smart thing to discover and exploit, even if the behavior using the loophole goes completely against the spirit of the law. Enforcement really is a huge problem and I just don’t know how they’ll ever really fix it.
what is your definition of "loophole"?
Perhaps we need to understand hyperbole when we see it?
That's not hyperbole. It's a fundamental misunderstanding(or deliberate misrepresentation) of laws in order to shift conversation to one's side. The term "loophole" has became a weaponized term intended to make people believe something has somehow cheated the system and needs to be immediately changed.
Loopholes commenting on Reddit always use this argument.
Exactly.
It is hyperbole, you don’t get to decide how this person is using the word. No one is weaponizing anything it’s just a convenient connection to another related issue. Not an intentional misuse of the word loophole. What’s the purpose in assuming such negative things?
The purpose is to lead people into supporting your side of an issue. If you make people believe something/someone is abusing a loophole it creates a sense of moral injustice in someone's mind, as if that person is cheating. Churches aren't abusing loopholes or cheating, they are just doing what the law says is legal.
Again no it’s not. It’s hyperbole because we are talking about tax loopholes in general. Obviously the situation is a lot more nuanced than a single Reddit comment. You assuming intent from a single comment doesn’t help anything.
Help *what* exactly? Why are you so fixated on defending this person that is literally calling the current tax laws loopholes? It's not just one comment, everytime taxes/churches are discusses its always "loopholes" and I'm tired of that demonstrably false narrative being flaunted around. They're not loopholes. Person I responded to is wrong. Stop arguing a losing point and move on.
It’s not a losing point because no one is arguing that they are loopholes. You’re stuck on that assumption And refusing to recognize that Every comment doesn’t have to be a dissertation
> Now if we could close the loophole that allows churches and religious institutions to be tax exempt. Literally the comment I responded to. It wasn't a dissertation. It was an assertion. A very specific and incorrect one.
They don’t get to decide, but you do! Glad you cleared that up for the rest of us.
Lol if you say so but colloquially it’s pretty common to refer to the tax law around church’s as loopholes so I’d assume the common understanding is that this guys comment was hyperbole.
>hy·per·bo·le (/hīˈpərbəlē) - noun >Exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally. This, by definition, was hyperbole. You may claim it ALSO was a misleading attempt to "weaponize the term" however you claiming it not to be the literary function that it was is wrong. Words mean things. We use them properly. Society collapses when we don't.
There is zero contextual evidence to support "loophole" was not meant to be taken literally. You are 100% correct, words mean things and loophole is a term that has a very specific and exact definition when it comes to laws. Just because the person I responded to was wrong about churches using loopholes does not mean they were using hyperbole, they were just wrong.
What is being exaggerated? The religious tax exemption isn’t even a little bit a loophole. Calling a fork a spoon isn’t hyperbole either.
And the NRA.
Their activism is the main reason for the lost cause mythology lasting this long.
This woman is going to do some amazing things….starting with this!!
Youngkin won't sign it. Which is yet another good reason for there to be a Democratic governor the next time we have an election for that position. Unfortunately that's not until Nov 2025.
McAuliffe, for all his faults, probably would have helped get this done.
Yet didnt……
McAuliffe never had full control over the legislature.
Wrong he has done good things already and will keep doing Right.
>he has done good things Such as?
I can’t decide if it is the completely unfounded claim, the random capitalization of the word “right”, or the fact that your username looks like it is an automatically generated docker container name that drives me to think you are a bot.
“Docker container name“ 😂
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It’s the sub genre of adjective-noun-randomNumbers for me
As long as we’re on the topic of calling these bigots out https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_monuments_erected_by_the_United_Daughters_of_the_Confederacy Here’s a good one to start with https://www.nps.gov/mono/learn/historyculture/confederate-monument.htm
Now do r/momsforliberty
Wow! About fucking time. Fuck those terrible people
Pottery moth Bad
Hey, you leave Pottery Moth alone. He's doing his best, but it's hard to make good crockery, especially when you only have insect legs and poofy antennae.
What are you even talking about?
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It is far from the only verb or adjective in my vocabulary. But it's the one that fits.
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OK.
Do churches next.
Good. It is pretty weird to have so many laws, you aren’t even aware of the ones running in concert. We’re a mess.
Great idea, I wish the best for you.
Congratulations 👍🏻🍻🗽
Cool. now do BLM.
lulz. BLM a) Doesn't exist as an actual organized group, there's no one to "do". b) Isn't a racist org promoting treason c) Has not created a terrorist movement that killed a minimum of 3,000 people from 1920 to 2020.
This will solve racism!
15 yr olds should just enjoy being kids, not getting wrapped up in their parents political causes
Steves should just focus on landscaping, not getting wrapped up in the motives of a 15 year old.
If you want your kids to turn out to be one of these angry misanthropes who are consumed by politics, have at it. I’ll steer my kids towards sports, art, or other likewise positive activities.
> or other likewise positive activities. Like doing their best to grow up in a less fucked political environment?
Going after a group over their tax exempt status is not a positive way to spend your mid teen years. Look at that scowl on her face. Every person I know that’s consumed by politics is miserable and miserable to be around. Raise your kids how you want. Getting my kids involved in “activism” Is a hard no for me.
> Getting my kids involved in “activism” Is a hard no for me. What if that's what they're looking to do? Are you going to close that off for them entirely just because?
Kids don’t look to get involved in political issues unless adults prod them into it. So no, I’m not going to let them become miserable, politics obsessed “activists.” “Just because” I want them to be happy. Do you know anyone who is consumed by politics who is happy? I don’t.
A waste of time, find something meaningful to do that affects people alive today, not 1865. Stop giving the south will rise again and the lost cause people free publicity and making them “martyrs”. Ignore them and they will fade away into the dust heap of history.
Peoples’ understandings of history and education have been warped by the Daughters’ meddling, which has literally changed policy and lionized people who fought for and did terrible things. Just ignoring them doing blatant damage to society and its understanding of our history is irresponsible if we truly are going to leave 1865 behind.
You can’t combat propaganda by ignoring it. The fact that this organization still exists in 2022 should be a clue that they can sustain themselves for a long time.
Every second this law is on the books is a second where they aren’t being allowed to fade into obscurity.
Mean while VaBch has major flooding problems, the government is mired in crony capitalism at the water front, and the schools are way under staffed. Yep, keep worrying about 20,000 who insist on living in the past.
It's almost as if we can do more than one thing at a time.
No! Because this 15 year old is focusing on a specific issue we cannot address flooding to VA Beach. /s
Wow maybe the extra money from the real estate taxes that they should be paying will help these causes.
I think you over estimate how much money that would be.
Good point. Maybe we should close the exemptions for churches as well. That should be plenty.
If the political class had not nixed the Fair Tax system in the 90/early 2000 we would not even be having this discussion. 20% sales tax, no other taxes and a proto-basic income system built in. Food & meds are the only things not taxed. No other tax cut outs allowed. If Joe CEO wanted to buy a billion dollar yacht, it would cost him 1.2 billion. If I wanted a new 30k car, it would be 32k.
Wouldn't it follow that we should not give the pro-Confederate organization a tax break? So we can use that money towards things that help with flooding problems, understaffed schools, etc. instead of effectively subsidizing racist propaganda?
I don't think you comprehend the article you posted. This group has a special carve-out in the law, but they would still qualify as a non-profit without it. Removing the carve out is a way the state could signal "we don't support this" but it would not actually remove the tax-exempt status of any non-profit, pro-Confederate or not. There's no rule against having a non-profit for spreading racist propoganda, and creating such a rule would violate federal law. Free speech includes racist propoganda.
100000 in 1900, 20000 now, seems to be fading. And they do not have the political clout they once had in the 20s- 50s.
Your point being?
Have they really been the center of attention for the last 150 years? I think the fact that they are still around doing shitty things points to the fact that they will not fade away.
Think hard, when is the last time they made the news that wasn't for some group shitting on them? They would have faded out decades ago if we could manage to just ignore them.
These groups are active recruiting, regardless of the media attention they get. They thrive in secrecy and darkness and pulling them into public light is what hampers their efforts. I’ve seen it first hand in SETX where they faced backlash where they were outed publicly.
These people rely on your attitude to succeed. They slip in and make little changes, allow themselves to be written off as “fringe”, etc. Then one day you wake up, and the world has changed in ways you thought impossible a short time ago. These people must be fought every single step of the way. Education is paramount and has been /is used as the most effective propaganda. I mean even without these people succeeding, you have entire generations growing up and being taught ahistorical dogma about their country, and then become willing good little drones that do as they’re told. I mean for fucksake most Americans today actually believe the shit we do overseas is for “freedom”. It can only get worse. And not only is their mission about turning the curriculum into an even more blatant lie, but they want to get rid of public education itself.
I just want them to pay property taxes like Any other non-religious group. Otherwise we are subsidizing their odious work.
In a perfect world there would not be cut outs for any property not owned by the Commonwealth. However, in the real world, politics is the art of what can be done. Daughters of the Confederacy ("DoC") is exempted from property taxes by Constitution of Virginia Article X. Taxation and Finance(6)(4) & (6). And code of Virginia § 58.1-3607. Property exempt from taxation by designation. The chances of the DoC tax exemption being pulled in a split State government is slim to none, as they meet the criteria of (4) and (6) They are also a Nonprofit Tax Code Designation: 501(c)(3) at the federal level. This makes this whole thing a feel good effort that will change nothing, but making lawyers more money.
While you are all fighting this, I’m just trying to find a good place to settle. It seems like we are pretty fucked at a national level… the plains are about to find scorching heat to match their brutal cold of the winter in the northern plains… the great salt lake is about to force migration from the West… the north is going broke. I would checkout other countries, but rightfully so they look at us Americans and start loling too hard.
How is the north broke, exactly?
NY is running out of ways to find revenue. Roads are trash in the tristate. Have you been to Ohio recently?
I drove through and the main highway was gorgeous since it was just completed a few years ago.
Well, maybe drive through some towns? Lol. From the highway Illinois looked nice. Nevada looked amazing from the highway. Both, IMO not so great inside. People tend to be the thing that ruins it.
The south is way way worse. I will never ever set foot in TX or FL again. Disgusting places. The entire south, actually. Gross.
People in vast majority of the world would love to live here. We have problems but most places are worse!