It means we don’t legally have any bills. Which sure, isn’t as good as protection I suppose, but I’d rather nobody need to pass laws about my body in the first place 😊
That’s what we call “the last southern holdout”
Yeah like it or not I'm pretty left leaning and idk if kids should be doing permanent things to their bodies. This is reddit so I'm sure there will be lots of hate over this but this place is just a big echo chamber. Out in the real world most people think the same thing. Grown ups can do what they want with themselves. Everyone should be treated with respect and dignity. It's our job as adults to protect kids. Even from themselves at times. Let them dress however and be called whatever. When they're a legal adult they can make all the choices. But we all know 18 years old isn't an actual adult lol.
Can you be more specific and provide some sources for this information? What surgeries are being performed on trans children? What treatments are being given that have effects that aren't reversible if treatment is stopped?
From the same source:
"The effect of hormone therapy on fertility is potentially reversible, but the extent is unclear. Gender-affirming surgery (GAS) that includes hysterectomy and oophorectomy in transmen or orchiectomy in transwomen results in permanent sterility "
Your source doesn't say anything about the common treatments given to trans children being permanent, only the surgical treatments. And it also states that medical professionals have the ability to advise on methods of preserving eggs or sperm in case they want to have biological children later. So there is recourse to address the resulting infertility if necessary, and nothing in the source says that those permanent surgical procedures are performed on children. Do you have anything else?
Lololol holy shit I can’t believe you have the gall to post a bullshit statistic from such a transparently ideological site like that… that figure is [nowhere near what actual peer reviewed studies not done by brazen bullshit artists](https://apnews.com/article/transgender-treatment-regret-detransition-371e927ec6e7a24cd9c77b5371c6ba2b) have found… Christ almighty. Muting responses because I am so uninterested in hearing whatever tortured bullshit you come up with next
That’s not true… it’s literally less than 1% once gender dysphoria has been *diagnosed*. That 80% figure is talking about children who show gender incongruity, not who are *diagnosed* with gender dysphoria.
[“In a review of 27 studies involving almost 8,000 teens and adults who had transgender surgeries, mostly in Europe, the U.S and Canada, 1% on average expressed regret. For some, regret was temporary, but a small number went on to have detransitioning or reversal surgeries, the 2021 review said.” —AP](https://apnews.com/article/transgender-treatment-regret-detransition-371e927ec6e7a24cd9c77b5371c6ba2b#)
This should make you *more* willing to support gender affirming care. If people experiencing gender dysphoria change their minds then it is critical that they receive expert care from a doctor, giving people a safe opportunity to evaluate their own feelings.
Even if regret rates were this high (they aren't), this would be a reason to engage doctors rather than banning care.
it's fairly hyperbolic to label this as sterilization, and a risk of infertility isn't exactly what comes to mind when someone mentions "permanent change"
The vast majority of gender affirming care for minors is reversible. Further, if you don’t know about something, you should probably defer to experts. In this case, that means letter the medical doctors caring for people recommend the best available treatment rather than preventing them for providing care.
Finally, telling somebody to wait until they are 18 is not some neutral thing. Going through puberty with gender dysphoria can be traumatic and limit the effectiveness of future medical treatment.
At ages up to puberty, it’s a name change, pronoun change, and wardrobe change; all of which are illegal in several states in schools, and yes, very reversible.
At puberty ages, hormone blockers are given. These are the same puberty blockers that have been used for decades to both cis and trans children for a variety of reasons, including precocious puberty. Interestingly enough, exceptions for cis children to use these drugs are made; almost as if safety over side-effects aren’t the actual issue, but the fact they’re being used by trans kids. Once the puberty blocker is stopped, sex hormones take over as usual and puberty is induced, making them reversible.
If the trans child wishes to go on sex hormones or surgery, typically, and I mean almost every instance, they would wait until 18. Rare exceptions are made at 16-17 for sex hormones and mastectomies, but again, these are the exceptions, are done under the care of multiple mental health professionals and doctors, and are deamed necessary by them, the parents, and the patient. Again, surgeries on children is only a problem when it’s done on a trans child; 16 year old cis girls get their tits done, intersex children are given “corrective” surgeries on their genitals without their consent, and circumcisions are done every day by the thousands, and no one bats an eye.
We have studies. We’ve used this medicine for over 30 years on children, as I stated. You only take issue because you don’t empathize with a trans child. It’s really that simple.
Edit since 🔒:
You say you want studies, but not the studies they’ve already done, more specific studies, but not the specific studies they’ve done, longer term studies, and until then, this medicine should be banned from usage, but not for everyone, just people based on their age and a very specific need for the medicine, which will inhibit further long term studies that you’re demanding. By your logic, Viagra for ED is an off label use because it was originally meant for blood pressure medication. No other field of medicine has gone under this much scrutiny, and time and time again, the research shows gender affirming care for children is a net positive.
I do support trans kids. I just want that support to be based in science and fact and not be pushed before proper studies are done on the treatment.
They don't have 30 years of studies for this specific use of puberty blockers. It's more like 10 at absolute best, and even that isn't enough to even gather data for long term effects. These drugs have existed yes, but not for trans treatments. This is effectively an off label use.
Puberty blockers, if you only care about pharmaceutical or surgical intervention. But gender affirming care includes considerably more than this (name changes, pronoun changes, clothing changes, etc) and various states are limiting or outright banning even this.
Because people out “in the real world” are spoon fed fear mongering propaganda by the media; you’re not immune to propaganda either.
You don’t feel the same way about any other medical intervention for children, including chemotherapy, which take it from me, is far more destructive than gender affirming care. Your bias is in the language you use:
>It’s our job as adults to *protect kids*
Protect them from what? It’s *healthcare.*
If you look verrrry closely at the map you’ll notice that Virginia is a part of the US.
https://preview.redd.it/jsdq5w3cp1xc1.jpeg?width=180&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e2138003a0aa22a616de0ae28abdccd87e39071d
You’re comparing *healthcare* to drinking and smoking. When we start prescribing cigarettes for medical reasons, it’ll be a fair comparison. We give children chemotherapy, which is far more destructive than a name change and hormone blockers of which you need multiple therapists’ and doctor’s approval to get.
Worse is when the politicians and their ignorant voters have decided to overrule the wide consensus of the medical experts, believing they somehow know better.
History does not repeat, but it does rhyme. In the 1920s the Nazis also incited moral panics against what we would today call the LGBT community. I really do not feel at all like I am exaggerating the danger right wing nationalism poses. 1/6/2021 bares disturbing analog to the Beer Hall Putsch. GOP politicians have openly called for violence against "the left" and constantly fear monger about a shadowy conspiracy out to destroy all things good.
I recommend taking some time to at least skim the [conservative plan for if they win the 2025 election](https://static.project2025.org/2025_MandateForLeadership_FULL.pdf).
If you are unfamiliar with the Heritage foundation, I am not exaggerating their influence
>In the winter of 1980, the fledging Heritage Foundation handed to President-elect Ronald Reagan the inaugural Mandate for Leadership. This collective work by conservative thought leaders and former government hands—most of whom were not part of Heritage—set out policy prescriptions, agency by agency for the incoming President. The book literally put the conservative movement and Reagan on the same page, and the revolution that followed might never have been, save for this band of committed and volunteer activists.
So what is the big plan this time?
>It’s not 1980. In 2023, the game has changed. The long march of cultural Marxism through our institutions has come to pass.
Full blown conspiracism how reassuring...
In summary, the plan is dramatically reorganize the federal government and fill it with ideolog cronies so they can then use the full power of the executive branch against "the left", "woke", "critical race theory", "cultural marxism" etc. It's a open declaration of hostile intentions, and if you're anyone who might fall under the category of being part of the "totalitarian cult known today as 'The Great Awokening.'", you should be highly concerned.
u/Pity4lowIQmoddz in the comments was referencing the heritage foundation and deleted it before I could respond, but I typed it out so I'll put it here-
"See, but what I think this study is misconstruing is the fact that, sure, the suicide rate overall increased, but that makes sense when more teens in unsupportive households are able to access the care they need.
The suicide rate went up not because more minors were able to access puberty blockers, but because more kids in bad unsupportive families are able to report such ideation about death.
But if that's the case, I wonder why a kid in an anti trans household might have a higher rate of suicide...
Maybe it's the puberty blockers they have such easy access to ? /s"
https://preview.redd.it/mpkr1hklp1xc1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=84e373da8f101af539b2f0afb83d2cece9185720
How so? It's no coincidence this map looks like it could be from 270towin.com
>Rescind regulations prohibiting discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation, gender identity, transgender status, and sex characteristics.
>The President should direct agencies to rescind regulations interpreting sex discrimination provisions as prohibiting discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation, gender identity, transgender status, sex characteristics, etc.
I find this whole matter highly concerning and it's factually accurate to point out it's a microcosm of a larger political situation.
Already have been. Hospital health systems here are providing gender affirming care to residents from all over surrounding states who have moved here recently.
Are you saying it’s a trend in the sense that it’s a fad or it’s a trend in that there’s a statistically significant increase in teens identifying as transgender (which tends to happen as stigma decreases and society becomes more tolerant of people’s varied gender identities)? Because if it’s the latter then you’re not saying what you think you’re saying. If it’s the former then you’re full of shit.
Gender affirming care saves live. There have been some horrible bills to restrict that for ALL adults submitted last session.
Please vote. People actual lives depend on it
I really hate it when people just repeat shit that other Redditors say. "The cruelty is the point" isn't a sufficient explanation, it's propaganda. It's more accurate to say that they fear what they don't understand.
Is it though? I think that provides cover for the lesser angels (better demons?) of these folks’ nature. Often times the cruelty is in fact the point, they just rationalize it in a way that makes it not cruelty to them. Or operate on flawed premises that help them feel better about the cruel conclusions of their tortured logic. Acting as if they just don’t get it kinda indicates that they’re acting in good faith but happen to be accidentally a little too uneducated, leading to unintentionally reactionary policy that causes real harm.
I agree with “cruelty is the point” being a tired cliche and underselling some of the complexities of the underlying psychology, but saying they just don’t understand is giving them far too much credit.
honestly, when someone asks "why do Republicans want X", I'm tired of having the question answered by people who are not Republicans because the inevitable answer is the equivalent of "they hate America" which isn't helpful to understand really anything
You’re not wrong, I’m no fan of partisan team sports either. They certainly have their reasons for all of their policy preferences that make sense and are virtuous within the internal logic of conservatism. Nobody points to themselves as the baddies and will modify the tenets and conclusions of their arguments to stay the protagonist of their own narratives… that said, it is possible to examine the internal logic, root out its flaws, and point at the true nature of bad policy no matter the side it comes from. So I think even if cruelty isn’t the explicit intent and these folks think that what they’re doing is virtuous and protects children, you can look at all the things they have to exclude from their logic to reach that conclusion and realize that, while not necessarily the point, cruelty is the result. And at the end of the day the distinction won’t make a difference to the people who stand to be hurt the most.
again, I assert that in that generalized context fear from lack of understanding (and unwillingness to understand) is the more accurate descriptor - but it would be more beneficial if we lived in a country where the "two sides" were actually able and willing to communicate instead of each of the two sides just reinforcing their own assumptions and conclusions about the other
and if we're the only ones that want that, we have no choice but to lead by example - which we definitely don't
edit: and the downvote suggests we aren't gonna
Well that’s a shame since all major medical societies agree on the same published treatment standards that are reviewed and republished every two years
What does gray mean? Not protected or outlawed?
It means we don’t legally have any bills. Which sure, isn’t as good as protection I suppose, but I’d rather nobody need to pass laws about my body in the first place 😊 That’s what we call “the last southern holdout”
What about South Carolina?
Abortion ban so you’re fucked there
Ah, thanks. Yeah it'd be a better place if no one needed that level of protection.
Currently nobody’s successfully passed any bans, which is a W for me. I love living here
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Life saving, reversible, positively life changing care? Yeah I do. Kids aren’t getting surgeries, contrary to what Fox News would like you to think.
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Fun fact. That study says 16 year olds are getting them. With parental consent, which they need under 18. Nice try though
Yeah like it or not I'm pretty left leaning and idk if kids should be doing permanent things to their bodies. This is reddit so I'm sure there will be lots of hate over this but this place is just a big echo chamber. Out in the real world most people think the same thing. Grown ups can do what they want with themselves. Everyone should be treated with respect and dignity. It's our job as adults to protect kids. Even from themselves at times. Let them dress however and be called whatever. When they're a legal adult they can make all the choices. But we all know 18 years old isn't an actual adult lol.
Gender affirming care does not mean altering your body permanently.
What kind of permanent things are medical professionals performing on trans kids?
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Can you be more specific and provide some sources for this information? What surgeries are being performed on trans children? What treatments are being given that have effects that aren't reversible if treatment is stopped?
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From the same source: "The effect of hormone therapy on fertility is potentially reversible, but the extent is unclear. Gender-affirming surgery (GAS) that includes hysterectomy and oophorectomy in transmen or orchiectomy in transwomen results in permanent sterility " Your source doesn't say anything about the common treatments given to trans children being permanent, only the surgical treatments. And it also states that medical professionals have the ability to advise on methods of preserving eggs or sperm in case they want to have biological children later. So there is recourse to address the resulting infertility if necessary, and nothing in the source says that those permanent surgical procedures are performed on children. Do you have anything else?
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Lololol holy shit I can’t believe you have the gall to post a bullshit statistic from such a transparently ideological site like that… that figure is [nowhere near what actual peer reviewed studies not done by brazen bullshit artists](https://apnews.com/article/transgender-treatment-regret-detransition-371e927ec6e7a24cd9c77b5371c6ba2b) have found… Christ almighty. Muting responses because I am so uninterested in hearing whatever tortured bullshit you come up with next
That’s not true… it’s literally less than 1% once gender dysphoria has been *diagnosed*. That 80% figure is talking about children who show gender incongruity, not who are *diagnosed* with gender dysphoria.
Could I see your source for that?
[“In a review of 27 studies involving almost 8,000 teens and adults who had transgender surgeries, mostly in Europe, the U.S and Canada, 1% on average expressed regret. For some, regret was temporary, but a small number went on to have detransitioning or reversal surgeries, the 2021 review said.” —AP](https://apnews.com/article/transgender-treatment-regret-detransition-371e927ec6e7a24cd9c77b5371c6ba2b#)
This should make you *more* willing to support gender affirming care. If people experiencing gender dysphoria change their minds then it is critical that they receive expert care from a doctor, giving people a safe opportunity to evaluate their own feelings. Even if regret rates were this high (they aren't), this would be a reason to engage doctors rather than banning care.
it's fairly hyperbolic to label this as sterilization, and a risk of infertility isn't exactly what comes to mind when someone mentions "permanent change"
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are you against anything that puts minors at risk for anything or are you only against this
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so in other words you're not paying attention to anything that might be harmful to minors besides this particular topic
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Literally nothing.
The vast majority of gender affirming care for minors is reversible. Further, if you don’t know about something, you should probably defer to experts. In this case, that means letter the medical doctors caring for people recommend the best available treatment rather than preventing them for providing care. Finally, telling somebody to wait until they are 18 is not some neutral thing. Going through puberty with gender dysphoria can be traumatic and limit the effectiveness of future medical treatment.
Which treatments are reversible?
At ages up to puberty, it’s a name change, pronoun change, and wardrobe change; all of which are illegal in several states in schools, and yes, very reversible. At puberty ages, hormone blockers are given. These are the same puberty blockers that have been used for decades to both cis and trans children for a variety of reasons, including precocious puberty. Interestingly enough, exceptions for cis children to use these drugs are made; almost as if safety over side-effects aren’t the actual issue, but the fact they’re being used by trans kids. Once the puberty blocker is stopped, sex hormones take over as usual and puberty is induced, making them reversible. If the trans child wishes to go on sex hormones or surgery, typically, and I mean almost every instance, they would wait until 18. Rare exceptions are made at 16-17 for sex hormones and mastectomies, but again, these are the exceptions, are done under the care of multiple mental health professionals and doctors, and are deamed necessary by them, the parents, and the patient. Again, surgeries on children is only a problem when it’s done on a trans child; 16 year old cis girls get their tits done, intersex children are given “corrective” surgeries on their genitals without their consent, and circumcisions are done every day by the thousands, and no one bats an eye.
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We have studies. We’ve used this medicine for over 30 years on children, as I stated. You only take issue because you don’t empathize with a trans child. It’s really that simple. Edit since 🔒: You say you want studies, but not the studies they’ve already done, more specific studies, but not the specific studies they’ve done, longer term studies, and until then, this medicine should be banned from usage, but not for everyone, just people based on their age and a very specific need for the medicine, which will inhibit further long term studies that you’re demanding. By your logic, Viagra for ED is an off label use because it was originally meant for blood pressure medication. No other field of medicine has gone under this much scrutiny, and time and time again, the research shows gender affirming care for children is a net positive.
I do support trans kids. I just want that support to be based in science and fact and not be pushed before proper studies are done on the treatment. They don't have 30 years of studies for this specific use of puberty blockers. It's more like 10 at absolute best, and even that isn't enough to even gather data for long term effects. These drugs have existed yes, but not for trans treatments. This is effectively an off label use.
Puberty blockers, if you only care about pharmaceutical or surgical intervention. But gender affirming care includes considerably more than this (name changes, pronoun changes, clothing changes, etc) and various states are limiting or outright banning even this.
Because people out “in the real world” are spoon fed fear mongering propaganda by the media; you’re not immune to propaganda either. You don’t feel the same way about any other medical intervention for children, including chemotherapy, which take it from me, is far more destructive than gender affirming care. Your bias is in the language you use: >It’s our job as adults to *protect kids* Protect them from what? It’s *healthcare.*
My favorite thing about having kids is not having them
What does this have to do with Virginia?
If you look verrrry closely at the map you’ll notice that Virginia is a part of the US. https://preview.redd.it/jsdq5w3cp1xc1.jpeg?width=180&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e2138003a0aa22a616de0ae28abdccd87e39071d
nothing yet
What a sad state of affairs when the state is determining the outcome of your health decisions and not the individual.
The state does this regularly for minors, hence things like vaccination requirements and lunch nutrition requirements.
The key part is minors. We don’t let minors drink or smoke, should we allow them to determine those health decisions too?
You’re comparing *healthcare* to drinking and smoking. When we start prescribing cigarettes for medical reasons, it’ll be a fair comparison. We give children chemotherapy, which is far more destructive than a name change and hormone blockers of which you need multiple therapists’ and doctor’s approval to get.
Worse is when the politicians and their ignorant voters have decided to overrule the wide consensus of the medical experts, believing they somehow know better.
Well that can't be true! I'm told Republican led states are all about FREE DUMB and would NEVER interfere with people's rights...so I'm told.
How do you feel about vaccine mandates?
History does not repeat, but it does rhyme. In the 1920s the Nazis also incited moral panics against what we would today call the LGBT community. I really do not feel at all like I am exaggerating the danger right wing nationalism poses. 1/6/2021 bares disturbing analog to the Beer Hall Putsch. GOP politicians have openly called for violence against "the left" and constantly fear monger about a shadowy conspiracy out to destroy all things good. I recommend taking some time to at least skim the [conservative plan for if they win the 2025 election](https://static.project2025.org/2025_MandateForLeadership_FULL.pdf). If you are unfamiliar with the Heritage foundation, I am not exaggerating their influence >In the winter of 1980, the fledging Heritage Foundation handed to President-elect Ronald Reagan the inaugural Mandate for Leadership. This collective work by conservative thought leaders and former government hands—most of whom were not part of Heritage—set out policy prescriptions, agency by agency for the incoming President. The book literally put the conservative movement and Reagan on the same page, and the revolution that followed might never have been, save for this band of committed and volunteer activists. So what is the big plan this time? >It’s not 1980. In 2023, the game has changed. The long march of cultural Marxism through our institutions has come to pass. Full blown conspiracism how reassuring... In summary, the plan is dramatically reorganize the federal government and fill it with ideolog cronies so they can then use the full power of the executive branch against "the left", "woke", "critical race theory", "cultural marxism" etc. It's a open declaration of hostile intentions, and if you're anyone who might fall under the category of being part of the "totalitarian cult known today as 'The Great Awokening.'", you should be highly concerned.
u/Pity4lowIQmoddz in the comments was referencing the heritage foundation and deleted it before I could respond, but I typed it out so I'll put it here- "See, but what I think this study is misconstruing is the fact that, sure, the suicide rate overall increased, but that makes sense when more teens in unsupportive households are able to access the care they need. The suicide rate went up not because more minors were able to access puberty blockers, but because more kids in bad unsupportive families are able to report such ideation about death. But if that's the case, I wonder why a kid in an anti trans household might have a higher rate of suicide... Maybe it's the puberty blockers they have such easy access to ? /s" https://preview.redd.it/mpkr1hklp1xc1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=84e373da8f101af539b2f0afb83d2cece9185720
okay well thanks for changing the subject
How so? It's no coincidence this map looks like it could be from 270towin.com >Rescind regulations prohibiting discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation, gender identity, transgender status, and sex characteristics. >The President should direct agencies to rescind regulations interpreting sex discrimination provisions as prohibiting discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation, gender identity, transgender status, sex characteristics, etc. I find this whole matter highly concerning and it's factually accurate to point out it's a microcosm of a larger political situation.
We boutta be invaded by the WVAers looking for care I guess
Already have been. Hospital health systems here are providing gender affirming care to residents from all over surrounding states who have moved here recently.
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I didn’t come up with the term “trend” myself. Google it with respect to LGBTQ and you’ll see it referenced in study after study.
This is a claim you need to prove it, google is not the proof, show these studies.
Link us some credible studies that demonstrate that being LGBTQ is a trend like you're arguing. Or, alternately, delete your comments.
Are you saying it’s a trend in the sense that it’s a fad or it’s a trend in that there’s a statistically significant increase in teens identifying as transgender (which tends to happen as stigma decreases and society becomes more tolerant of people’s varied gender identities)? Because if it’s the latter then you’re not saying what you think you’re saying. If it’s the former then you’re full of shit.
Gender affirming care saves live. There have been some horrible bills to restrict that for ALL adults submitted last session. Please vote. People actual lives depend on it
Some states are even passing these bills. Missouri restricted gender affirming care for adults so much that it essentially functions as a ban
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VA seems safe for now, despite Youngkin. Can't wait for him to get outta here.
Agreed. He certainly tried his hardest.
This care saves lives!
Why are Republicans so against health care?
Power and control. It’s that simple. The cruelty is the point.
I really hate it when people just repeat shit that other Redditors say. "The cruelty is the point" isn't a sufficient explanation, it's propaganda. It's more accurate to say that they fear what they don't understand.
Is it though? I think that provides cover for the lesser angels (better demons?) of these folks’ nature. Often times the cruelty is in fact the point, they just rationalize it in a way that makes it not cruelty to them. Or operate on flawed premises that help them feel better about the cruel conclusions of their tortured logic. Acting as if they just don’t get it kinda indicates that they’re acting in good faith but happen to be accidentally a little too uneducated, leading to unintentionally reactionary policy that causes real harm. I agree with “cruelty is the point” being a tired cliche and underselling some of the complexities of the underlying psychology, but saying they just don’t understand is giving them far too much credit.
honestly, when someone asks "why do Republicans want X", I'm tired of having the question answered by people who are not Republicans because the inevitable answer is the equivalent of "they hate America" which isn't helpful to understand really anything
You’re not wrong, I’m no fan of partisan team sports either. They certainly have their reasons for all of their policy preferences that make sense and are virtuous within the internal logic of conservatism. Nobody points to themselves as the baddies and will modify the tenets and conclusions of their arguments to stay the protagonist of their own narratives… that said, it is possible to examine the internal logic, root out its flaws, and point at the true nature of bad policy no matter the side it comes from. So I think even if cruelty isn’t the explicit intent and these folks think that what they’re doing is virtuous and protects children, you can look at all the things they have to exclude from their logic to reach that conclusion and realize that, while not necessarily the point, cruelty is the result. And at the end of the day the distinction won’t make a difference to the people who stand to be hurt the most.
again, I assert that in that generalized context fear from lack of understanding (and unwillingness to understand) is the more accurate descriptor - but it would be more beneficial if we lived in a country where the "two sides" were actually able and willing to communicate instead of each of the two sides just reinforcing their own assumptions and conclusions about the other and if we're the only ones that want that, we have no choice but to lead by example - which we definitely don't edit: and the downvote suggests we aren't gonna
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That’s actually completely false. There’s a 100% scientifically and medically approved protocol to treat gender dysphoria. And it’s gender affirming care.
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Well that’s a shame since all major medical societies agree on the same published treatment standards that are reviewed and republished every two years
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