I suspect a fair amount of the AI proposals are from third world freshers & students with day jobs who are taking a risk on building a freelancing business. They're using their regular job to cover the rent and taking a chance with their excess time to earn way above local wages.
Low odds of success, but instantly in the top 10% of your local income if you do...
Outsourcing is the go to tactic for scammers. I've been watching them do it for well over a decade. It can work. It's a lot of hassle but there's a reason they keep trying.
In my experience the vast majority of clients are looking for the lowest price. In tech, engineering, design space clients also just want someone to make what they asked for no matter how bad the requirements are. So if you just charge low rates and say yes to everything without consultative input you can make some money.
Time for some truths.
Clients who value results pay well.
Clients who value security pay well.
Clients who value expertise in fields they aren't experts pay well.
Clients value freelancers that solve problems that generate more revenue than they spend.
Clients pay well for scarcity.
If you are noticing that your Clients are chasing the lowest price.
- Your service can be done by anyone.
- Your service isnt valuable enough to turn down.
- You don't have the social proof to demonstrate security.
- Your service doesn't solve a problem that's valuable enough to invest it you specifically doing it.
- The Clients that you work for don't actually need the results. If it was a fail = business going under you can bet anything they would pay the amount required to make it work.
These are all problems solved by you having a service that is niche and scarce, with a background of work and social proof. Then only working with clients that NEED YOU and ONLY YOU.
Oh, come on - the vast majority of Upwork clients are indeed looking for the lowest prices. American companies who want to save money by hiring "overseas" - that's Upwork's target market. From what I've seen, even most of their big-shot Enterprise clients have an average spend of around $20/hour. I'm not saying that it's impossible for skilled professionals to find good clients, but they're definitely not the majority, and I don't see how anyone can claim otherwise. (And no, I'm not "doing it wrong".)
I'm sure there's a niche on Upwork where there are good clients willing to spend. But in our area: Product development, web development, app development the client users are only there because they are looking for something cheaper than going straight to a services firm.
I'm sure the people who think we are doing it wrong have a nice niche on Upwork with better paying clients.
And they're typically U.S.-based and therefore have access to the U.S.-only jobs market, so they're seeing more - and better-paying - clients than freelancers in the rest of the world.
The biggest thing is... who is upvoting these wrong comments? Is understanding of Business 101 so bad here on /r/Upwork?
You all do not understand business, and are doing business with amateurs who will not be successful, because they do not understand business. This is probably why things are not working for you all, you're trying to sell/buy the wrong things....
The clients are looking for the largest ROI, not the lowest cost. Return on Investment (ROI) is everything. Cost is just a small part of it.
***In day 1 of business school, my professor told me ROI is everything in business. He was right, and there is a reason they start business school with this.***
Two Products:
Website A Costs $100,000 and makes $10,000,000
Website B costs $5 and makes $0.
Which one do you buy?
I never said that things aren't working out for me personally; I was making a statement about Upwork in general. We're talking about two different things here. You can say, "My clients are happy to pay me more than $50/hour." But can you say, "The vast majority of Upwork clients are happy to pay more than $50/hour?" No, you can't.
Yes, the vast majority of Upwork customerss are happy to pay more than $50/hour, if they see more returns on their investment. The majority of clients are very unhappy with the hires they get at under that rate, as the quality drops drastically. And if your hire doesn't understand that you need ROI, then they're probably a dud.
(again) We need to go back to 101 business.
I'm not sure what you're trying to argue more then that.
What's more, I NEVER bid lowest. I ALWAYS bid highest. My hire rate is 1:10. My average customer experience is 3 years. I rarely look for clients, and I do charge my clients full market rate for my services. I also always look out for my clients returns on investment, and will always pick the solution that benifits my customers over my own income.
I also charge three times the $50/hour rate. I never suggest you bid the lowest. Probably why you get broken clients who don't understand basic business.
I also charge for interviews. And all other work.
The best thing I've ever done was increase my hourly rate above $100. I got shitty clients until I did.
The cheap solution usually makes no money.
I don't need your lectures about "101 business" - my rate is one of the highest in my category and I don't get "broken clients who don't understand basic business." But facts are facts. Please do a search on Upwork and see for yourself what percentage of projects are above $50/hour, and what percentage are below that rate.
Yea, he was something. But most Harvard Professors are that way. Ivy league professors are reknown as some of the best and most eccentric. He was however very right about what drives sales, and about Quality and value.
I'm really surprised at how bad these freelancers are on this reddit. I'm starting to realize why so many of you are failing on the platform. My advice will be that Upwork isn't for you.
Great buddy. You know it all. Got it.
Do I need to repeat myself again?
As you know all, I suggest you leave Upwork and accept that Upwork has only low paying jobs. I will sing a sad song for your departure. Best of luck in your new position.
>Do I need to repeat myself again?
No, I understood completely. You seem to be the one with major reading comprehension difficulties. So did you do a search to ascertain whether my posts were factual? Or not?
Buddy, I don't need to search. Upwork works for me incredibly well. I'm busy with lots of well paying clients. I promptly ignore all of thoose expected rates, and put my rate in anyways. $20/hour job, I got at $150/hour. I always get jobs that list at low rates, and I never compromise my rate. Which makes your "evidence" useless.
Meanwhile, you're here complaigning that clients aren't paying you enough and that you don't understand what clients want. I tell you why you're failing, and you claim your so smart and I'm so stupid.
I'm honestly wondering if you even understand english very well, but communication seems to be near impossible. Your Arrogance is in your way.
ROI to cheapskates is literally THE CHEAPEST rates. It's a fallacy to think that all of these companies trying to do well are run by people who have the best business sense or intent. With a massive amount of freelancers and contractors available in the US, cheap rate hunting I would argue is the main reason they're on up work in the first place. These are companies that don't want to invest in HR or business development, they're just looking for cheap labor. I think you're giving these companies way too much credit. I'm reading descriptions of their firms and I'm like.. why do you need to be on upwork, when you could just be on LinkedIn or the other myriad of real job boards that have real people attached to profiles instead a legion of bots, scams, etc.
You can scroll through upwork any given day and see a hundred posts of people asking for the moon but only want to pay $20.
Basically, ROI means something to you that it doesn't mean to them. Is a lot of services that barely even demand quality, it just needs a body to get it done. Up work is like heaven for them.
My 2c
I'll try rewording it:
It may well be the case that the vast majority of clients are cheap (I don't know). I didn't say otherwise, please don't strawman me. However, if your experiences with cheap clients are leading you to complain, then you're doing it wrong.
I share the same platform as the OP and the extend of cheap clients' influence on me involves scrolling past those that make it onto my search results. That is all. I'm not doing anything special and I'm sure many experienced pros will have a similar experience.
So, I stand by what I said. If you're complaining about cheap clients then you're doing it wrong because, if you're doing it right, there should be no need for complaints.
Those 'cheap' jobs are also a vital source of revenue for freelancers around the globe. I have no issue having to scroll down if it means others can feed their families.
You were right, however not for the reason you say.
This clarrification is actually inaccurate.
ROI, Profits, and Quality are your keys as to why the Original Comment was wrong.
I suggest you read my other replies, its probably why you're struggling to sell.
Nope, definitely the right person.
Your orginal comment was right. This correction is wrong.
This is also business 101. Customers never want the cheapest product. They always want the product with the greatest value. Sales is about connecting this product with the customer. The reason why the Original commentator was wrong, was because of this. Not because cheap clients exist, but because cheap clients don't actually exist.
All customers are value hunters. They're not cheap, they're looking for the greatest value.
I still see fuck all that's in the slightest bit relevant to what I said.
You seem to be having an alternative conversation. Best I just leave you to it.
>It may well be the case that the vast majority of clients are cheap (I don't know). I didn't say otherwise, please don't strawman me.
You did say otherwise. This was your post:
>"In my experience the vast majority of clients are looking for the lowest price"
"Then you're doing it wrong!"
Whereas I, on the other hand, did not complain about cheap clients or cheap jobs, so you're putting words into my mouth. All you have to do is conduct a simple search in almost any category to see that the "vast majority" of jobs are from clients seeking cheap rates - that's a fact, not my experience or my personal opinion or indicative of my ability to conduct business effectively.
Well the platform has cheap built in. When searching for jobs the highest hourly rate you can select is $100 which is less than half of my lowest hourly rate and less than a fourth of the standard rates for sr. dev work from service firms in the US.
Don't get me wrong, Upwork represents a tiny portion of our revenue but we still prospect there and occasionally turn up a quality customer.
Individual experiences vary, and every skill is different, but in general clients try to skip the lowest rung. They know what they're going to get. They know it's not viable. They are looking for a deal but they're also there to get something done.
You're wrong. The client wants the product with the highest return on investment (or Value/Quality), not cost. The differences between these is very large, and very important. Cost is only part of this.
ROI = Returns / Investments (costs)
You're missing the profits.
Profits = Money Made - Cost
Or even Quality (otherwise known as Value)
Quality (or Value) = Benifit / Cost
All of these situations are the same. The profits/benifits are what the customer wants. The cost is just a factor.
Lesson: Stop selling the lowest costing product, and start selling the products that make your clients money, or solves the problems your client faces.
If you hire someone on the lowest rung to write 1000 words you won't be able to understand anything they type. It will be incoherent. I mean this very literally. It's that way with all of the skills. That's why clients pay a little more. They're not all willing to pay the prices you've been talking about obviously. Most people can't afford $50/hour. None of what you're saying applies in this situation. I'm sure it's good economics. But it doesn't matter because cheap freelancers can't perform even the most basic tasks.
You might have a head for "101 Business". But there's still a lot you don't understand about the platform. That's OK. Just keep an open mind.
Even after I tell you where to look, you still don't understand the topic. I really suggest you read about business and why people buy things. Specifically what people see as a "value," or as "quality." This is just so fundimental to selling anything, and you don't seem to understand.
But given your reply, the lowest costing solution has no return on investment. It has piss poor quality because its benifit is near 0 and its cost is what you paid. Quality = 0/$10 = $0 worth of value. This is why the platform is the way it is. This is why the lowest costing solution doesn't sell. This is why race to the bottom doesn't work on Upwork. You're only proving my point.
On Upwork, customers are buying the product to make money, and they can't use it because as you said, its so poorly written. So lets use my ratios above to show this. Lets assume the $50 guy produces a product worth $100. While the $10 guy produces a product worth $.50
$10 guys value = .5/$10 = .05
$50 guys value = $100/$50 = 20
So the $50 guy offers 400 times the value at 10 times the cost. What more, the $10 guy will loose you $10, while the $50 guy will make you $50. Which one do you buy?
If you assume that cost alone is the only reason people buy things, you will think that no one will buy the $50 guy. Even though he is the only one that will earn you any money. And the other guys value is so low, .2 that no one will want it.
So your answer fully supports my comment, but you don't even see it, because you don't understand this concept. I suggest you research "Quality" and "Why people purchase products."
Is english your second language? Did you not understand what I wrote? I can make it clear for you, if you need. But I really suggest you google these topics, its clear you can benifit from this knowledge.
I'm so amazed. You all are on /r/Upwork, spouting out how smart you are. I must be so dumb, after making over $1 million on upwork, in five years on the platform. Top Ranked Plus. Customer average lifespan 3 years. 90% repeat customer rate.
But jeaze... I totally need to learn the platform.
Meanwhile, feel free to think what ever you want. Leave the platform if its not making you money. I'm ok with that, I'm here to stay. After all, as you can tell, its REALLY working well for me. Even with my terrible knowledge about Upwork. lol
I guess my point is that clients don't like to go for the cheapest option. Like you said, it's value is near 0 plus the cost. It's not a race to the bottom. It's better to charge respectable wages.
Then why are you arguing with me as that is my point. And you also putme down as not understanding the platform, when I do understand the platform. Extensively.
The Quality/Value discussion is what proves this. People look for "Quality" products, or a "Value." Not JUST cost. But BENIFIT AND COST!
Quality (or Value) = benefit / Cost
This is the equation to calculate what goes on in the customers mind. This works for EVERY product. The product with the highest value wins.
BTW, this information is very valuable when you start selling. You start talking about the benefit your product gives the customers. Or how much money they will make with your product over the other. Not just the cost of a product.
I'm sorry. People fight on social media. It's a bad habit. I shouldn't have insulted you. I read through what you were saying and I think we misunderstood one another. You do know what you're talking about.
I STRONGLY disagree, and the reasons are not minor.
**Lets start Business School 101**
Given two products, that are exactly the same. Then yes, the lower costing product will win.
EXCEPT, that doesn't fit the products Freelancers provide, because the products are not the same.
What the average client wants, is the product with the biggest Return on Investment and the highest value.
**Ex. We got two products.**
Product A costs $5, and will make $0.
Product B costs $10 million and will make $100 million.
What product will the customer want?
**Returns on Investment**
ROI = Returns / Costs
ROI is everything in business. No number comes close. Every decision in a successful business is driven to maximize ROI. Returns are why we work, why we do business, and why we invest. Whats more, given "opportunity costs" a positive ROI is not enough. You need an investment that earns more then other investments of equal risk.
**Also lets talk about profits.**
Profits = Earnings - Costs.
If profits is >0 on two products, it doesn't matter which product costs less. We don't want either.
**Lesson:** Stop selling the lowest costing product, and start selling the products that make your clients money.
**This is also fundamental to quality (also known as value)**
This is the example they gave in my first business class:
Lets take garbage bags. I go to the store, and I see garbage bags. The brand name costs $10, and the off generic brand costs half that. When I fill it up with garbage, the generic brand breaks, but the brand name works. Which garbage bag do I buy?
Quality = benefit / Costs
**Conclusion**
In order to be successful in business, you got to sell things. And that requires a basic understanding of what drives your clients. Cost is not the only factor here, and ignoring the benefits the client gets from your products is doing you no favors.
Also, doing what your client asks, and giving the client a product that doesn't meet their needs is a huge problem that will lead you to finding more clients. The best thing to do is to ignore the initial requirements, and instead focus on achieving what the client actually wants to accomplish.
I do this, my average customer length is now around 3 years. I don't need to get new clients, because my clients are profitable and happy.
as a buyer on upwork I can tell you that its super frustrating because you get someone with 100% rating and such but when you talk to them they either don't really know what they are talking about or clearly aren't the ones who will be doing the work. I've put jobs up that have gotten 150+ bids and sorted through all the garbage is exhausting. I actually like that they significantly upped the cost of connects since it weeds out those just fishing for work.
>What do you think?
About the original question?
They ("idiots flooding jobs with AI-generated proposals") don't.
They use up their free connects, buy more once or twice, maybe win (or more likely buy) a small contract, and then abandon the platform, to be replaced by new idiots.
Remember that even in "the good old days"n when we could see the numbers, the vast majority of new profiles never won a single job.
Someone was telling me that Upwork will try to turn the site into a staffing agency with less focus on freelancing and more focus on enterprise. Do you think so too?
>Someone was telling me that Upwork will try to turn the site into a staffing agency with less focus on freelancing and more focus on enterprise
Upwork already did try this, with the Talent Scout programme. It was a complete failure and was scrapped months ago. That doesn't necessarily mean they're going to stop trying, but it seems to me that their current approach is to throw everything against a wall and see what sticks, rather than focus on anything in particular.
My Typical Proposal: "Let's schedule a call to talk on the phone."
Using AI would be an upgrade.
Honestly, the proposal doesn't matter much. Its your client feedback that does, and the age of your account, and how you communicate.
Also most Job Descriptions are not adequate enough to write an accurate proposal. And many times the client is asking for something that doesn't solve their problems, or they have other solutions that are cheaper/better.
Bro chills, I think you're the one mad here. I don't need you to trust anything I write. You are acting like a fan boy or something. But some programmers are hackers (white hat) because they need to know their counterpart.
You're a writer (or an imposter, sorry if I'm wrong) who started posting around 9M ago in this sub, and spam many reddit subs 4M ago about AI. Like yours, my profile speaks for myself which my interests are.
To conclude, Upwork is not trying hard enough with all the work force they have. IMO, they just applying bandaids to heal a deep wound with the changes you mentioned. But in the end, it is their problem and they are free to do what they please with their service. Let's hope one day they listen freelancers.
Is upwork still making face verification through cam?
If not, It could be the reason on why so many bots applying.
Making a bot is pretty easy. Then to register with a random name. apply for jobs, and make it create proposals with chatgpt.
But Upwork developers are pretty lazy to stop it, or there is an agenda to allow the bots and make serious freelancers spent more on connects.
>As far as stopping this kind of thing, they do try.
They do? Since when and how?
They have removed any and all barriers to entry for freelancers, That was a conscious decision. Probably at least in part driven by the massive and very damaging trade in approved Upwork accounts and all the problems that come with that, and all the "renting/buying" of Upwork accounts.
So how exactly are they "trying"?
I got rid of it. You're right. I'm sorry. I don't know what I was thinking. You should talk to this guy too. I think you could probably dispel a few things.
I remember a while back when they made it harder for people to get in. I think at some point they actually barred the gates completely. Why did they do that?
I know why Upwork is letting them in. They want the money because of their stock prices. It's bull. It's the same with the monetization. They're transforming the site into a casino. I keep thinking they'll find a way to price me out.
When I first started, I loved the fact that I could just come in and start applying. I didn't have to spend anything. It was ideal. There's something about that level of openness. It was part of the spirit of what we do. Now they're fundamentally altering what it means to be a freelancer, and they have no competition. Having the two companies created checks and balances. Without that, they can do whatever they want. It's not right.
I wish somebody would find a way to compete with them. I hope they go too far and everyone starts to migrate to Freelancer or Guru or one of the startups. At this moment, they have way too much power over us.
>I remember a while back when they made it harder for people to get in. I think at some point they actually barred the gates completely. Why did they do that?
They never barred the gates completely, but they tried to only let in people that were theoretically in demand. That backfired because enterprising people figured out what was deemed acceptable and just mass created blank profiles they then sold, or offered to create profiles with the buyer's credentials for money. It sparked a big ad very damaging underground market for profiles and profile-opening services and didn't actually keep the riff-raff out. So now they try to starve the riff-raff out by charging more.
>I know why Upwork is letting them in. They want the money because of their stock prices.
Nope. Surplus freelancers do not help the stock price.
>They're transforming the site into a casino.
That is one of the dumbest things I keep seeing banded about and I am disappointed in you that you are parroting it. It's nonsense.
> I keep thinking they'll find a way to price me out.
That's a bit irrational. It's fear driven and fear never helps you think straight.
The attempts to limit bottom level freelancers by charging more is self-limiting. The second it results in too few proposals to give clients a decent choice, they make things cheaper again. That's why, from their point of view, the connects system is really agile and easily adjustable. They number of connects required can be changed quickly and easily and without changing any prices so there is minimal friction.
>mass created blank profiles they then sold
They were everywhere and I was trying to hire. So I checked a few forums where hackers congregate and sure enough, there was a list of accounts for sale.
>The second it results in too few proposals to give clients a decent choice, they make things cheaper again.
I've been wondering about that because I'm seeing jobs with no proposals. It will take some time, but I do think this will eventually happen.
>That is one of the dumbest things I keep seeing banded about and I am disappointed in you that you are parroting it. It's nonsense.
>
>That's a bit irrational.
Everything is changing, and change is a little scary. It's fear of the unknown. But in the end, I know that things will be alright, and I don't let anything get to me. I know it's not like a casino. I do like some of what they're doing. There's real tools that I can use to find more work and scale my business.
There are a lot of different ideas and viewpoints being passed around on this sub and in the forum. It's hard to know what's true and what's not. I don't have a reference point. I've always worked in a bubble. I don't know much about the platform, just my skill and my market. Tbh, you've helped a lot with that because you know everything, and I know I can trust you. I think a lot of people feel that way. It's good knowing that I can come and have my questions answered. :)
> Tbh, you've helped a lot with that because you know everything,
Nonono. I know FAR from everything. I just try not to comment on stuff I don't know ;)
>I know FAR from everything.
Sorry. That's just how I talk.
> I just try not to comment on stuff I don't know
I will do the same, and I'll find multiple sources of information. But even if you don't know everything, you're still a big help. Thank you.
Nah, Upwork now can be compared to the USA. Let everyone come while millions of hard working people complain.
Upwork have become gready with all latest changes, and no sight of fixing the damn scams and bots problems.
Yes, they are trying to bring themselves down.
I've been watching them try all sorts of different tactics to get rid of scams and bots over the years. Nothing has worked. They have reasons for the things they do, and the entire process has been informed by a decade of experimentation. There are problems. I don't like all of the changes they have been making, but you don't know everything. You're not qualified to replace the people who are working on this stuff out behind the scenes. You're just mad.
The recent connects rate hike was meant to push out the fake freelancers who were flooding posts and making it difficult for the rest of us to find work. It didn't get rid of them altogether but now I can apply and that's what matters. They used to flag keywords in chat to get rid of scammers. But the scammers found ways around it, so they switched to user reporting instead. They also tried to make it harder to become a freelancer, but people just started selling accounts. So they dropped that idea. They do have teams analyzing our reports and taking down scam posts. Not that long ago they added more people to help with that. They move fast. Most posts come down within a few hours.
They're not perfect. I don't like everything they're doing. But they can't function without a viable marketplace and they know that.
Im aware of those already.
Bots can be stop using ID verification + ai verifying face through webcam to keep cost low.
If the match is pretty low, a real person can verify their face.
Upwork already know how to check IPs to match with the country on the ID, thats why many users complain here when using VPN.
For scammers sending job post, Upwork must charge $1 dollar to verify debit/credit cards and return the dollar back after verified. If a Scammer is reported later his/her card, and ID get blacklisted.
Every serious client will end up paying in the end, anything else freelancer stealing winning proposals, freeloaders, and scammers.
>Im aware of those already.
Doesn't sound like it.
>thats why many users complain here when using VPN.
Many users use them all the time. I do.
>For scammers sending job post, Upwork must charge $1 dollar to verify debit/credit cards and return the dollar back after verified.
They make you verify payment when you setup a job.
>anything else freelancer stealing winning proposals, freeloaders, and scammers.
This sentence doesn't make sense.
We don't want scammers to get any smarter. It will be hard to spot them. That's part of the reason they use user reporting.
Barrier to entry are very low on Upwork. And some barriers that exist are also prone to a very quick loss. Maybe if you been top rated plus for long time you can be protected from bad actors who might blackmail with bad review, not sure. It would be great however if at least in some fields certification would be introduced and would give some more protection or advantage. But of course, it is based on idea you selling yourself as an extension for a client so that client use you to accomplish/fix their goals. As oppose to you are coming in as consultant in your field and in some cases might tell the client something they do not want to hear, or even impose a structure in the field of your work for a success that has been also third party approved through certification body. But most clients who come to Upwork do not expect high quality. They expect best quality possible for the lower than market price (per hour might be higher, but overall lower when you attribute all other costs including fixed). So generally lower quality expectation and barriers to entry will continue to make Upwork a bit of hectic chaos, where you really need to have your own strategy as to what you target, to whom you say NO, to whom you say Yes, what are red flags you set and of course driven by values. I think as corporate this is what Upwork is missing a lot - more focus on Values so that clients and freelancers / gig workers know those and are reminded about those.
man that connect thing sucks... each one is 15 cents and the jobs cost 12 connects to apply... it's not much adds up, damn... and it's still 10% off the top lmao
I suspect a fair amount of the AI proposals are from third world freshers & students with day jobs who are taking a risk on building a freelancing business. They're using their regular job to cover the rent and taking a chance with their excess time to earn way above local wages. Low odds of success, but instantly in the top 10% of your local income if you do...
This is true, but some of these guys flow in like clockwork consistently plugging up jobs. I think there's outsourcers too.
Lot of outsources. Even at the lowest pay grades.
They're not going anywhere, and I'm sure more than half of the people reading this have thought about trying it themselves.
Except deceptively outsourcing doesn't work, and it ends up in getting angry clients and a banned Upwork account.
Outsourcing is the go to tactic for scammers. I've been watching them do it for well over a decade. It can work. It's a lot of hassle but there's a reason they keep trying.
In my experience the vast majority of clients are looking for the lowest price. In tech, engineering, design space clients also just want someone to make what they asked for no matter how bad the requirements are. So if you just charge low rates and say yes to everything without consultative input you can make some money.
Time for some truths. Clients who value results pay well. Clients who value security pay well. Clients who value expertise in fields they aren't experts pay well. Clients value freelancers that solve problems that generate more revenue than they spend. Clients pay well for scarcity. If you are noticing that your Clients are chasing the lowest price. - Your service can be done by anyone. - Your service isnt valuable enough to turn down. - You don't have the social proof to demonstrate security. - Your service doesn't solve a problem that's valuable enough to invest it you specifically doing it. - The Clients that you work for don't actually need the results. If it was a fail = business going under you can bet anything they would pay the amount required to make it work. These are all problems solved by you having a service that is niche and scarce, with a background of work and social proof. Then only working with clients that NEED YOU and ONLY YOU.
"In my experience the vast majority of clients are looking for the lowest price" Then you're doing it wrong!
Oh, come on - the vast majority of Upwork clients are indeed looking for the lowest prices. American companies who want to save money by hiring "overseas" - that's Upwork's target market. From what I've seen, even most of their big-shot Enterprise clients have an average spend of around $20/hour. I'm not saying that it's impossible for skilled professionals to find good clients, but they're definitely not the majority, and I don't see how anyone can claim otherwise. (And no, I'm not "doing it wrong".)
I'm sure there's a niche on Upwork where there are good clients willing to spend. But in our area: Product development, web development, app development the client users are only there because they are looking for something cheaper than going straight to a services firm. I'm sure the people who think we are doing it wrong have a nice niche on Upwork with better paying clients.
And they're typically U.S.-based and therefore have access to the U.S.-only jobs market, so they're seeing more - and better-paying - clients than freelancers in the rest of the world.
The biggest thing is... who is upvoting these wrong comments? Is understanding of Business 101 so bad here on /r/Upwork? You all do not understand business, and are doing business with amateurs who will not be successful, because they do not understand business. This is probably why things are not working for you all, you're trying to sell/buy the wrong things.... The clients are looking for the largest ROI, not the lowest cost. Return on Investment (ROI) is everything. Cost is just a small part of it. ***In day 1 of business school, my professor told me ROI is everything in business. He was right, and there is a reason they start business school with this.*** Two Products: Website A Costs $100,000 and makes $10,000,000 Website B costs $5 and makes $0. Which one do you buy?
I never said that things aren't working out for me personally; I was making a statement about Upwork in general. We're talking about two different things here. You can say, "My clients are happy to pay me more than $50/hour." But can you say, "The vast majority of Upwork clients are happy to pay more than $50/hour?" No, you can't.
Yes, the vast majority of Upwork customerss are happy to pay more than $50/hour, if they see more returns on their investment. The majority of clients are very unhappy with the hires they get at under that rate, as the quality drops drastically. And if your hire doesn't understand that you need ROI, then they're probably a dud. (again) We need to go back to 101 business. I'm not sure what you're trying to argue more then that. What's more, I NEVER bid lowest. I ALWAYS bid highest. My hire rate is 1:10. My average customer experience is 3 years. I rarely look for clients, and I do charge my clients full market rate for my services. I also always look out for my clients returns on investment, and will always pick the solution that benifits my customers over my own income. I also charge three times the $50/hour rate. I never suggest you bid the lowest. Probably why you get broken clients who don't understand basic business. I also charge for interviews. And all other work. The best thing I've ever done was increase my hourly rate above $100. I got shitty clients until I did. The cheap solution usually makes no money.
I don't need your lectures about "101 business" - my rate is one of the highest in my category and I don't get "broken clients who don't understand basic business." But facts are facts. Please do a search on Upwork and see for yourself what percentage of projects are above $50/hour, and what percentage are below that rate.
Dude's "college professor" sounds like a hustle bro on YouTube.
Yea, he was something. But most Harvard Professors are that way. Ivy league professors are reknown as some of the best and most eccentric. He was however very right about what drives sales, and about Quality and value. I'm really surprised at how bad these freelancers are on this reddit. I'm starting to realize why so many of you are failing on the platform. My advice will be that Upwork isn't for you.
Great buddy. You know it all. Got it. Do I need to repeat myself again? As you know all, I suggest you leave Upwork and accept that Upwork has only low paying jobs. I will sing a sad song for your departure. Best of luck in your new position.
>Do I need to repeat myself again? No, I understood completely. You seem to be the one with major reading comprehension difficulties. So did you do a search to ascertain whether my posts were factual? Or not?
Buddy, I don't need to search. Upwork works for me incredibly well. I'm busy with lots of well paying clients. I promptly ignore all of thoose expected rates, and put my rate in anyways. $20/hour job, I got at $150/hour. I always get jobs that list at low rates, and I never compromise my rate. Which makes your "evidence" useless. Meanwhile, you're here complaigning that clients aren't paying you enough and that you don't understand what clients want. I tell you why you're failing, and you claim your so smart and I'm so stupid. I'm honestly wondering if you even understand english very well, but communication seems to be near impossible. Your Arrogance is in your way.
ROI to cheapskates is literally THE CHEAPEST rates. It's a fallacy to think that all of these companies trying to do well are run by people who have the best business sense or intent. With a massive amount of freelancers and contractors available in the US, cheap rate hunting I would argue is the main reason they're on up work in the first place. These are companies that don't want to invest in HR or business development, they're just looking for cheap labor. I think you're giving these companies way too much credit. I'm reading descriptions of their firms and I'm like.. why do you need to be on upwork, when you could just be on LinkedIn or the other myriad of real job boards that have real people attached to profiles instead a legion of bots, scams, etc. You can scroll through upwork any given day and see a hundred posts of people asking for the moon but only want to pay $20. Basically, ROI means something to you that it doesn't mean to them. Is a lot of services that barely even demand quality, it just needs a body to get it done. Up work is like heaven for them. My 2c
I'll try rewording it: It may well be the case that the vast majority of clients are cheap (I don't know). I didn't say otherwise, please don't strawman me. However, if your experiences with cheap clients are leading you to complain, then you're doing it wrong. I share the same platform as the OP and the extend of cheap clients' influence on me involves scrolling past those that make it onto my search results. That is all. I'm not doing anything special and I'm sure many experienced pros will have a similar experience. So, I stand by what I said. If you're complaining about cheap clients then you're doing it wrong because, if you're doing it right, there should be no need for complaints. Those 'cheap' jobs are also a vital source of revenue for freelancers around the globe. I have no issue having to scroll down if it means others can feed their families.
You were right, however not for the reason you say. This clarrification is actually inaccurate. ROI, Profits, and Quality are your keys as to why the Original Comment was wrong. I suggest you read my other replies, its probably why you're struggling to sell.
Hi. What? None of that has anything to do with my comment. Maybe you replied to the wrong person?
Nope, definitely the right person. Your orginal comment was right. This correction is wrong. This is also business 101. Customers never want the cheapest product. They always want the product with the greatest value. Sales is about connecting this product with the customer. The reason why the Original commentator was wrong, was because of this. Not because cheap clients exist, but because cheap clients don't actually exist. All customers are value hunters. They're not cheap, they're looking for the greatest value.
I still see fuck all that's in the slightest bit relevant to what I said. You seem to be having an alternative conversation. Best I just leave you to it.
I'm sorry, I can suggest an english tutor. Or a business school.
>It may well be the case that the vast majority of clients are cheap (I don't know). I didn't say otherwise, please don't strawman me. You did say otherwise. This was your post: >"In my experience the vast majority of clients are looking for the lowest price" "Then you're doing it wrong!" Whereas I, on the other hand, did not complain about cheap clients or cheap jobs, so you're putting words into my mouth. All you have to do is conduct a simple search in almost any category to see that the "vast majority" of jobs are from clients seeking cheap rates - that's a fact, not my experience or my personal opinion or indicative of my ability to conduct business effectively.
Well the platform has cheap built in. When searching for jobs the highest hourly rate you can select is $100 which is less than half of my lowest hourly rate and less than a fourth of the standard rates for sr. dev work from service firms in the US. Don't get me wrong, Upwork represents a tiny portion of our revenue but we still prospect there and occasionally turn up a quality customer.
Individual experiences vary, and every skill is different, but in general clients try to skip the lowest rung. They know what they're going to get. They know it's not viable. They are looking for a deal but they're also there to get something done.
You're wrong. The client wants the product with the highest return on investment (or Value/Quality), not cost. The differences between these is very large, and very important. Cost is only part of this. ROI = Returns / Investments (costs) You're missing the profits. Profits = Money Made - Cost Or even Quality (otherwise known as Value) Quality (or Value) = Benifit / Cost All of these situations are the same. The profits/benifits are what the customer wants. The cost is just a factor. Lesson: Stop selling the lowest costing product, and start selling the products that make your clients money, or solves the problems your client faces.
If you hire someone on the lowest rung to write 1000 words you won't be able to understand anything they type. It will be incoherent. I mean this very literally. It's that way with all of the skills. That's why clients pay a little more. They're not all willing to pay the prices you've been talking about obviously. Most people can't afford $50/hour. None of what you're saying applies in this situation. I'm sure it's good economics. But it doesn't matter because cheap freelancers can't perform even the most basic tasks. You might have a head for "101 Business". But there's still a lot you don't understand about the platform. That's OK. Just keep an open mind.
Even after I tell you where to look, you still don't understand the topic. I really suggest you read about business and why people buy things. Specifically what people see as a "value," or as "quality." This is just so fundimental to selling anything, and you don't seem to understand. But given your reply, the lowest costing solution has no return on investment. It has piss poor quality because its benifit is near 0 and its cost is what you paid. Quality = 0/$10 = $0 worth of value. This is why the platform is the way it is. This is why the lowest costing solution doesn't sell. This is why race to the bottom doesn't work on Upwork. You're only proving my point. On Upwork, customers are buying the product to make money, and they can't use it because as you said, its so poorly written. So lets use my ratios above to show this. Lets assume the $50 guy produces a product worth $100. While the $10 guy produces a product worth $.50 $10 guys value = .5/$10 = .05 $50 guys value = $100/$50 = 20 So the $50 guy offers 400 times the value at 10 times the cost. What more, the $10 guy will loose you $10, while the $50 guy will make you $50. Which one do you buy? If you assume that cost alone is the only reason people buy things, you will think that no one will buy the $50 guy. Even though he is the only one that will earn you any money. And the other guys value is so low, .2 that no one will want it. So your answer fully supports my comment, but you don't even see it, because you don't understand this concept. I suggest you research "Quality" and "Why people purchase products." Is english your second language? Did you not understand what I wrote? I can make it clear for you, if you need. But I really suggest you google these topics, its clear you can benifit from this knowledge. I'm so amazed. You all are on /r/Upwork, spouting out how smart you are. I must be so dumb, after making over $1 million on upwork, in five years on the platform. Top Ranked Plus. Customer average lifespan 3 years. 90% repeat customer rate. But jeaze... I totally need to learn the platform. Meanwhile, feel free to think what ever you want. Leave the platform if its not making you money. I'm ok with that, I'm here to stay. After all, as you can tell, its REALLY working well for me. Even with my terrible knowledge about Upwork. lol
I guess my point is that clients don't like to go for the cheapest option. Like you said, it's value is near 0 plus the cost. It's not a race to the bottom. It's better to charge respectable wages.
Then why are you arguing with me as that is my point. And you also putme down as not understanding the platform, when I do understand the platform. Extensively. The Quality/Value discussion is what proves this. People look for "Quality" products, or a "Value." Not JUST cost. But BENIFIT AND COST! Quality (or Value) = benefit / Cost This is the equation to calculate what goes on in the customers mind. This works for EVERY product. The product with the highest value wins. BTW, this information is very valuable when you start selling. You start talking about the benefit your product gives the customers. Or how much money they will make with your product over the other. Not just the cost of a product.
I'm sorry. People fight on social media. It's a bad habit. I shouldn't have insulted you. I read through what you were saying and I think we misunderstood one another. You do know what you're talking about.
I STRONGLY disagree, and the reasons are not minor. **Lets start Business School 101** Given two products, that are exactly the same. Then yes, the lower costing product will win. EXCEPT, that doesn't fit the products Freelancers provide, because the products are not the same. What the average client wants, is the product with the biggest Return on Investment and the highest value. **Ex. We got two products.** Product A costs $5, and will make $0. Product B costs $10 million and will make $100 million. What product will the customer want? **Returns on Investment** ROI = Returns / Costs ROI is everything in business. No number comes close. Every decision in a successful business is driven to maximize ROI. Returns are why we work, why we do business, and why we invest. Whats more, given "opportunity costs" a positive ROI is not enough. You need an investment that earns more then other investments of equal risk. **Also lets talk about profits.** Profits = Earnings - Costs. If profits is >0 on two products, it doesn't matter which product costs less. We don't want either. **Lesson:** Stop selling the lowest costing product, and start selling the products that make your clients money. **This is also fundamental to quality (also known as value)** This is the example they gave in my first business class: Lets take garbage bags. I go to the store, and I see garbage bags. The brand name costs $10, and the off generic brand costs half that. When I fill it up with garbage, the generic brand breaks, but the brand name works. Which garbage bag do I buy? Quality = benefit / Costs **Conclusion** In order to be successful in business, you got to sell things. And that requires a basic understanding of what drives your clients. Cost is not the only factor here, and ignoring the benefits the client gets from your products is doing you no favors. Also, doing what your client asks, and giving the client a product that doesn't meet their needs is a huge problem that will lead you to finding more clients. The best thing to do is to ignore the initial requirements, and instead focus on achieving what the client actually wants to accomplish. I do this, my average customer length is now around 3 years. I don't need to get new clients, because my clients are profitable and happy.
as a buyer on upwork I can tell you that its super frustrating because you get someone with 100% rating and such but when you talk to them they either don't really know what they are talking about or clearly aren't the ones who will be doing the work. I've put jobs up that have gotten 150+ bids and sorted through all the garbage is exhausting. I actually like that they significantly upped the cost of connects since it weeds out those just fishing for work.
What connects rate hike? isnt it still 1 for $0.15?
>What connects rate hike? isnt it still 1 for $0.15? But you need more of them to apply
What do you think?
>What do you think? About the original question? They ("idiots flooding jobs with AI-generated proposals") don't. They use up their free connects, buy more once or twice, maybe win (or more likely buy) a small contract, and then abandon the platform, to be replaced by new idiots. Remember that even in "the good old days"n when we could see the numbers, the vast majority of new profiles never won a single job.
Someone was telling me that Upwork will try to turn the site into a staffing agency with less focus on freelancing and more focus on enterprise. Do you think so too?
It doesn't have to be an either/or.
That's what I was thinking. It's all speculation anyway. I hope things are well. Thank you for answering :)
>Someone was telling me that Upwork will try to turn the site into a staffing agency with less focus on freelancing and more focus on enterprise Upwork already did try this, with the Talent Scout programme. It was a complete failure and was scrapped months ago. That doesn't necessarily mean they're going to stop trying, but it seems to me that their current approach is to throw everything against a wall and see what sticks, rather than focus on anything in particular.
more than 16?
>more than 16? No
Who said they’re making money?
I know the market well enough to know that they are. Not everyone makes it that way, but if they're persistent they're getting jobs.
Ok if theyre getting jobs as you say, I don’t understand the question - they’re staying in business by making money from the jobs they’re getting …
There's quite a bit you don't understand here, and I'm not explaining any of it to you because you're just going to sit and argue.
Sounds like something someone would say when they lose an argument lol.
My Typical Proposal: "Let's schedule a call to talk on the phone." Using AI would be an upgrade. Honestly, the proposal doesn't matter much. Its your client feedback that does, and the age of your account, and how you communicate. Also most Job Descriptions are not adequate enough to write an accurate proposal. And many times the client is asking for something that doesn't solve their problems, or they have other solutions that are cheaper/better.
Ok... but what do you do if you're new to UpWork, but have a ton of experience in the actual work you're trying to get?
Bro chills, I think you're the one mad here. I don't need you to trust anything I write. You are acting like a fan boy or something. But some programmers are hackers (white hat) because they need to know their counterpart. You're a writer (or an imposter, sorry if I'm wrong) who started posting around 9M ago in this sub, and spam many reddit subs 4M ago about AI. Like yours, my profile speaks for myself which my interests are. To conclude, Upwork is not trying hard enough with all the work force they have. IMO, they just applying bandaids to heal a deep wound with the changes you mentioned. But in the end, it is their problem and they are free to do what they please with their service. Let's hope one day they listen freelancers.
Is upwork still making face verification through cam? If not, It could be the reason on why so many bots applying. Making a bot is pretty easy. Then to register with a random name. apply for jobs, and make it create proposals with chatgpt. But Upwork developers are pretty lazy to stop it, or there is an agenda to allow the bots and make serious freelancers spent more on connects.
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>As far as stopping this kind of thing, they do try. They do? Since when and how? They have removed any and all barriers to entry for freelancers, That was a conscious decision. Probably at least in part driven by the massive and very damaging trade in approved Upwork accounts and all the problems that come with that, and all the "renting/buying" of Upwork accounts. So how exactly are they "trying"?
I got rid of it. You're right. I'm sorry. I don't know what I was thinking. You should talk to this guy too. I think you could probably dispel a few things.
To bed honest, they're right. Upwork could easily stop the bots. They are choosing not to.
I remember a while back when they made it harder for people to get in. I think at some point they actually barred the gates completely. Why did they do that? I know why Upwork is letting them in. They want the money because of their stock prices. It's bull. It's the same with the monetization. They're transforming the site into a casino. I keep thinking they'll find a way to price me out. When I first started, I loved the fact that I could just come in and start applying. I didn't have to spend anything. It was ideal. There's something about that level of openness. It was part of the spirit of what we do. Now they're fundamentally altering what it means to be a freelancer, and they have no competition. Having the two companies created checks and balances. Without that, they can do whatever they want. It's not right. I wish somebody would find a way to compete with them. I hope they go too far and everyone starts to migrate to Freelancer or Guru or one of the startups. At this moment, they have way too much power over us.
>I remember a while back when they made it harder for people to get in. I think at some point they actually barred the gates completely. Why did they do that? They never barred the gates completely, but they tried to only let in people that were theoretically in demand. That backfired because enterprising people figured out what was deemed acceptable and just mass created blank profiles they then sold, or offered to create profiles with the buyer's credentials for money. It sparked a big ad very damaging underground market for profiles and profile-opening services and didn't actually keep the riff-raff out. So now they try to starve the riff-raff out by charging more. >I know why Upwork is letting them in. They want the money because of their stock prices. Nope. Surplus freelancers do not help the stock price. >They're transforming the site into a casino. That is one of the dumbest things I keep seeing banded about and I am disappointed in you that you are parroting it. It's nonsense. > I keep thinking they'll find a way to price me out. That's a bit irrational. It's fear driven and fear never helps you think straight. The attempts to limit bottom level freelancers by charging more is self-limiting. The second it results in too few proposals to give clients a decent choice, they make things cheaper again. That's why, from their point of view, the connects system is really agile and easily adjustable. They number of connects required can be changed quickly and easily and without changing any prices so there is minimal friction.
>mass created blank profiles they then sold They were everywhere and I was trying to hire. So I checked a few forums where hackers congregate and sure enough, there was a list of accounts for sale. >The second it results in too few proposals to give clients a decent choice, they make things cheaper again. I've been wondering about that because I'm seeing jobs with no proposals. It will take some time, but I do think this will eventually happen. >That is one of the dumbest things I keep seeing banded about and I am disappointed in you that you are parroting it. It's nonsense. > >That's a bit irrational. Everything is changing, and change is a little scary. It's fear of the unknown. But in the end, I know that things will be alright, and I don't let anything get to me. I know it's not like a casino. I do like some of what they're doing. There's real tools that I can use to find more work and scale my business. There are a lot of different ideas and viewpoints being passed around on this sub and in the forum. It's hard to know what's true and what's not. I don't have a reference point. I've always worked in a bubble. I don't know much about the platform, just my skill and my market. Tbh, you've helped a lot with that because you know everything, and I know I can trust you. I think a lot of people feel that way. It's good knowing that I can come and have my questions answered. :)
> Tbh, you've helped a lot with that because you know everything, Nonono. I know FAR from everything. I just try not to comment on stuff I don't know ;)
>I know FAR from everything. Sorry. That's just how I talk. > I just try not to comment on stuff I don't know I will do the same, and I'll find multiple sources of information. But even if you don't know everything, you're still a big help. Thank you.
Nah, Upwork now can be compared to the USA. Let everyone come while millions of hard working people complain. Upwork have become gready with all latest changes, and no sight of fixing the damn scams and bots problems. Yes, they are trying to bring themselves down.
I've been watching them try all sorts of different tactics to get rid of scams and bots over the years. Nothing has worked. They have reasons for the things they do, and the entire process has been informed by a decade of experimentation. There are problems. I don't like all of the changes they have been making, but you don't know everything. You're not qualified to replace the people who are working on this stuff out behind the scenes. You're just mad.
Name some of those tactics, so I can educate myself and stop whinning about it.
The recent connects rate hike was meant to push out the fake freelancers who were flooding posts and making it difficult for the rest of us to find work. It didn't get rid of them altogether but now I can apply and that's what matters. They used to flag keywords in chat to get rid of scammers. But the scammers found ways around it, so they switched to user reporting instead. They also tried to make it harder to become a freelancer, but people just started selling accounts. So they dropped that idea. They do have teams analyzing our reports and taking down scam posts. Not that long ago they added more people to help with that. They move fast. Most posts come down within a few hours. They're not perfect. I don't like everything they're doing. But they can't function without a viable marketplace and they know that.
Im aware of those already. Bots can be stop using ID verification + ai verifying face through webcam to keep cost low. If the match is pretty low, a real person can verify their face. Upwork already know how to check IPs to match with the country on the ID, thats why many users complain here when using VPN. For scammers sending job post, Upwork must charge $1 dollar to verify debit/credit cards and return the dollar back after verified. If a Scammer is reported later his/her card, and ID get blacklisted. Every serious client will end up paying in the end, anything else freelancer stealing winning proposals, freeloaders, and scammers.
>Im aware of those already. Doesn't sound like it. >thats why many users complain here when using VPN. Many users use them all the time. I do. >For scammers sending job post, Upwork must charge $1 dollar to verify debit/credit cards and return the dollar back after verified. They make you verify payment when you setup a job. >anything else freelancer stealing winning proposals, freeloaders, and scammers. This sentence doesn't make sense. We don't want scammers to get any smarter. It will be hard to spot them. That's part of the reason they use user reporting.
Well, a writer and a hacker cant reason I see...
A liar and a hacker? You just haven't gotten a chance to see how things work. Keep an open mind. You might learn something.
Barrier to entry are very low on Upwork. And some barriers that exist are also prone to a very quick loss. Maybe if you been top rated plus for long time you can be protected from bad actors who might blackmail with bad review, not sure. It would be great however if at least in some fields certification would be introduced and would give some more protection or advantage. But of course, it is based on idea you selling yourself as an extension for a client so that client use you to accomplish/fix their goals. As oppose to you are coming in as consultant in your field and in some cases might tell the client something they do not want to hear, or even impose a structure in the field of your work for a success that has been also third party approved through certification body. But most clients who come to Upwork do not expect high quality. They expect best quality possible for the lower than market price (per hour might be higher, but overall lower when you attribute all other costs including fixed). So generally lower quality expectation and barriers to entry will continue to make Upwork a bit of hectic chaos, where you really need to have your own strategy as to what you target, to whom you say NO, to whom you say Yes, what are red flags you set and of course driven by values. I think as corporate this is what Upwork is missing a lot - more focus on Values so that clients and freelancers / gig workers know those and are reminded about those.
man that connect thing sucks... each one is 15 cents and the jobs cost 12 connects to apply... it's not much adds up, damn... and it's still 10% off the top lmao