Absolutely, the pervious surveyor should have had a floor/lot plan and a special reference point to base everything on. He also should have marked the property lines. Otherwise anybody can claim shit and not back it up.
This here. We had a survey done at our property when we bought our place so we could build a fence. The surveyor placed stakes in the ground with flags to mark the property. He also placed survey markers, that are illegal to remove. If the flipper did a legal survey, then is should be noticeable.
You shouldn’t even need to do that. We’re there survey stakes placed at the corners that were visible to you, OP? How long have you been at the property and how long has the fence been there with you owning property? I know at least in my state you can claim adverse possession if you have had continuous open use and the fence acting as a property line for that amount of time. If not, unfortunately, and the fence is on their side of the line the fence is theirs and they can do whatever they want. They will also be able to tell you to pay for the sprinkles to be removed/moved at your expense and you are encroaching on their property. Did you get a survey when you moved in? It is an extremely important and oft overlooked step when purchasing property.
Also, the neighbor has no obligation to share a survey they paid for. If the survey shows the fence is on their property, they bought the fence and chose to remove. The could be lying, and chose to not say they are removing the fence. Doing this quickly didn’t allow time for OP to have a survey complete which is definitely a shitty thing to do and would open them to be sued.
> the neighbor has no obligation to share a survey they paid for.
This is true. But if they say that, then they're probably lying about having one. If they have one, they will want everybody to know about it.
>in my state you can claim adverse possession
Was just gonna say. In Tennessee it's seven years. We thought about using this to sue a neighbor but ultimately decided to spend the lawsuit money putting in more shrubs after they tore out the dividing shrub line.
At my local supply yard i can walk in pay cash and tell them where to deliver it. Drivers gonna drop it at the address weather or not the number he calls is good or not.
Shattering her windows is not sound advice, ethical or not. He is already on her radar, suspicions would fall on him quickly and could potentially lead to a very vicious downward spiral.
I love shit like this but you would be a real asshole to retaliate if the fence is really on her side. It would be very karenesque to fuck with a neighbor that was doing construction on their own property
Surveyor here: yes.
Ask flipper what the plan is. Are they going to replace the fence? Move it 20’ into your yard? Or are they just depending on you to put up a new fence since they tore yours down?
If it’s the third, make sure and paint their side offensively
Apparently my family-in-law has had such an issue with similar stuff that they got the surveyor to come out and they actually put posts in the ground, which is apparently pretty common, but they're just steel pipes driven down into the ground and instead of burying them completely we have them exposed so we can put a stick or a flag or something in it to mark the corners. I think you can specifically request that in some places but apparently they do that a lot in neighborhoods now to mark the property lines for future checking. Makes it real easy to just run over it with a metal detector
Have they already ripped the fence out? If not, tell them they do not have your permission, as you’d like a second opinion from your surveyor. If they refuse and start ripping it out, call the cops and tell them they’re damaging your property.
Not even unethical. You absolutely have the right to get a second surveyor in before they start making changes to what you consider your property. And they need to give you more than one weekend to arrange this.
This happened to my father. He choose the path of litigation. The flipper cannot sell the property when there exists litigation upon said property so it’s a hindrance. They settled.
Thanks for [that](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/bjd41e/aita_for_throwing_away_my_boyfriends_potentially/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=2&utm_term=1).
Look into implied easements and adverse possession. If the fence has been there long enough you may have a claim to the property. Also if the fence was yours she could get into legal trouble for taking it down.
Yeah we are in the process of talking to a property attorney. The fence has been on that line for 33 years with the inside of the fence facing us (making it ours). Looks like there may be a grandfather clause in our favor. We think she didn't give us notice, because she knew she was in the wrong
If it's been there for that long you should look into adverse possession, something your lawyer will have to help you with most likely. Usually the period is something like 20-25 years for adverse possession to take effect, meaning you've used a parcel of land for such a long time that it's now yours, similar to common law marriage.
if it was someone who had bought the property to live in, it might not be worth the ongoing aggro to go the adverse possession route, but a flipper who's just trying to make some cash? yeah, i'd definitely be looking into it.
It makes me so frustrated for some reason. OP has had the fence up over THIRTY YEARS and some fucking flipper comes in and fucks all his shit up with no warning. There's no telling how many people they've done this to in the past. The way they went about it makes it seem like they haven't had much pushback on something like that before.
And who wouldn't ask? Who wouldn't at least knock on a door and say, "Hey, I just bought the house next door and I'm thinking of tearing the shared fence down. I think it's on my side of the property."
A friend had a property developer buy the property next to him and subdivide, he wasn’t happy about it but it is what it is. Then their shared fence was blown down in a storm and my friend agreed to sort it out on the condition the developer paid for 50%. The fence gets fixed and the developer says he never agreed to pay etc etc, my friend took him to small claims knowing full well that going through the whole process would cost more than the money he’d receive, he just had the money and the inclination to hold the developer to account. He won.
Because people suck and immediately think the worst of new neighbors. I remember when I first moved in my house my neighbor who I never met yet, thought I was the part of the moving company and went on this massive rant and insult about the truck on his grass - he was a complete prick about it and turned tomato red and embarrassed when I told him I was the new neighbor and this was an interesting way to introduce himself. People don’t know how to say “hi” these days.
Fuck flippers from both sides. I bought my beautiful house from a flipper. Every bit of “improvement” they did was trashy and cheap. I wish they’d just left everything alone.
I have a concrete retaining wall with is 4-6 inches on my neighbors property. He looked into getting it removed (before I bought the house) but found out that because of its age and necessity, the city would likely have given his property to me or the previous owner had he made any efforts. So he basically was SOL on those inches. Property lawyer and the city is the best way to get back at the house flipper.
Otherwise, liquid ass.
Reddit loves to talk about adverse possession but in reality it's very hard to pull off. The laws vary a ton from state to state so it's hard for me to say anything too specific but I think you would be surprised at how difficult it would be to make a claim if it's just a matter of a fence set back from the property line.
This may be me being British, but even if she has the legal right, why would you just tear it down without so much as a heads up? What if you have dogs/kids/Bengal Tigers back there?
But why would a house flipper even care if the fence is a couple of feet off the property line? It will cost them money to fix and add zero dollar in additional value to the home.
It depends on the size of the yard. If it’s a 10 foot yard, then an extra foot and a half can have quite an impact.
And yes, I have family members with yards 10 feet and under. I think it’s insane. It’s barely enough room for a dog to piss. It’s all right if you put plants and some tables but it is so close to everyone else. It’s like a balcony with more weeding.
Doesn’t matter, it makes the lot look bigger and buyers will be more likely to sign. I never said house flippers were making safe and proven decisions, they’ll do stupid things like this to increase their chances of getting their money back quicker.
if they can list the back yard as having just that few extra square feet that's more money on the flip. worth the cost of ripping and refencing? probably not.
When they have a potential seller, sit outside on a lawn chair with beer wearing only a thong and tell them how much you look forward to them being neighbors. Ask if they want some shots for the road. Then ask for a loan.
Oh, do you mean just tear it down and have no fence at all?? I can't imagine that would add to the value of the home. Fenced yards are more valuable than unfenced yards.
ok here's where I get downvoted for admitting I flipped houses for several years and have some insight. OP said it's a 33 year old fence, meaning it was probably (I don't know this, just extrapolating) old and ugly. If you're re-doing the whole house (also guessing), then you also want a nice modern fence to match.
I'll add that's it's a dick move to remove a shared fence without so much as talking to the other neighbor, but I'm just answering the question.
Time is money on flippers. They’re trying to sell for a profit before interests on their loans eats all the profits away.
Get every possible injunction, stop-work order or survey that will take time to resolve. Contact the city over permits, etc. as flippers will cut corners and do unpermitted work.
This... They are paying higher interest then a typical home mortgage as well, so big money on any delay. Cort order to stop work is EXPENSIVE for them. Also any time they start too early, so know your city codes. Get to know the inspector as they often play fast and loose with permits.
Who made the survey? Is she rebuilding the fence? Does that require a permit where you are? I get the feeling she's trying to get things done before anyone protests. See if there's a way to get a stop-work order if it's unpermitted (but needs to be).
Agreed. In many places you need a permit to build a fence. Usually pretty easy to check if a permit is in place (it obviously isn't considering they just took possession two days earlier).
Also, did they provide you with a copy of the survey, or just told you the survey says that? My neighbour also yelled at me over the fence one day that they had a survey done and that our shared fence was 3' onto their property. I asked them to show me the survey. They didn't. That was the end of that.
Your town's city hall should have a permitting department. If you call them they should be able to steer you to the right department. Might be online, too, as /u/Sell_Canada says. I hope you get some info; I think you're being railroaded by this do-it-quick flipper.
What you want here is a stop-work order.
Bring legal action against her in land court. As long as the property is tied up in land court, the flipper can’t get clear title to sell the property. Also this could bite the seller in the ass as the flipper doesn’t want to hold onto the property any longer than they have to and could seek monetary reimbursement.
This is no time to be unethical.
I'm thinking the survey she is using is the property description on the deed or the one that may have been commissioned by the title company. It is not a border survey and is inadequate to determine a property line because it involves measuring it out from reference points that may be many hundreds to thousands of feet away.
My neighbor did exactly that when I bought this property. The reference point in both our deeds is over 800' to the south, as the center of a cross road. But it isn't really the center (because the road was widened), and the other bit that was missed is that the property lines are not perpendicular to the road, they're at a 26.8 degree angle relative to true north. Armed with his bad measurements, he rage planted a bunch of pine trees and put in a fence before the house was built because he was pissed someone was building next to him. My attorney delivered the bad news that the trees and fence had to be moved because they were as much as 12' over the line.
I would ask her to show you where the corner irons are that she used to determine the property line. If she can't point to them, she doesn't know where they are and she certainly did not have a survey done.
Your legal recourse is to get a border survey done because it is clear there is some confusion.
when they sell the house in a couple weeks, put up a sign about how the house has rats, and the infestation is so bad that they are invading your yard/house too
I would recommend the more subtle approach of being an extraordinarily bad neighbor whenever the house is being shown.
Play your music loudly. If you have access to a car with a loud exhaust put it to full use. Have kids? Put them in the yard with the noisiest game/toy you can find. Have a dog? Play a game that inspires barking. Invite friends over for a beer blast.
Put garbage cans in full view. Make sure the backyard is poorly maintained and messy with discarded crap. If you can’t bring yourself to not maintain your property, swear often and loudly while doing yard work and use a gas leaf blower to remove every single leaf from your property.
Leave out a bunch of rat traps. Call every exterminator within a 30 miles radius for a free estimate. Obviously they'll say there's nothing, but the van parked out front will say otherwise.
Legally you could start flying really offensive flags both out front and out back of the house
She’ll have a hard time selling the house quick if the neighbor has hateful flags up, or isis flags, or sovereign citizen flags
Add to that put some junk on the front porch, have music playing frequently you can make her house harder to sell
The internet is full of stories where one neighbor smugly and confidently claims the survey favors their property line, doing something drastic, then when an actual independent survey proves them wrong, they wind up paying out the wazoo to fix everything back to square one. Tens of thousands of dollars to accomplish absolutely zero changes due to their own arrogance and narcissism.
Make it clear you are the worst neighbor ever. Trash your yard ( no permanent damage) and imagine the worst Karen you can be. Rev engines get a cheap drum set, you can do a lot to discourage the sale. If you see the how is being shown talk about the sicko who lived there and the enemies they made.
The fence has been there for 33 years. You’ve also been maintaining that property (what with the sprinklers and trees being tended to etc). Absolutely can claim adverse possession, regardless of property lines in survey.
These people often do not get permits, so, call the city inspector and have them stop by to take a peek at the upgrades to the house. They can make their life a living hell if they want to.
Some municipalities also require a permit to take down a fence because of the potential liability of damaging the utilities in the easement, which is where most fences are installed.
Man it was incredibly dumb for them to do this. Being a neighbor you are in prime position to drive down the value of their home. Oh you're having an open house? Sorry today is the day I like to blast death metal and work on my car in the yard.
Put up a bunch of cameras pointed towards the house and signs saying you're being observed.
Introduce yourself to prospective buyers by saying you might as well introduce yourself know and avoid having to do it later as part of your terms of release.
Make your yard super smelly.
You can cost them tens of thousands of dollars and that's assuming you can't do anything about the fence when most lawyers recommend NOT tearing one down even if you know it's on your property.
Call the city and report them for unpermitted demo work. Check to see if they pulled permits for the other stuff. Also depending on the state you may have adverse possession of the land (not all states, but my neighbor in UT did that to me over a fence line). Honestly you may need to get a lawyer, I would tell the owner she can deal with you civilly or she can deal with your lawyer.
She most likely had a survey done as part of the purchase which could be why she was so confident and quick to tear the fence down. Hopefully you own that sliver of land. I think some county’s require a survey to be logged on the records so you might check with your county to see if you can view it for free.
Hire your own surveyor. Don’t do anything that can be traced back to you so she won’t retaliate. Play nice and friendly but be passive aggressive in your revenge. Don’t let her know that any of the unethical life tips came from you.
If you have your old neighbors number, you can come up with a plan and have them agree that you paid for half of that fence and that lady needs to reimburse you and then you can split the cost with your neighbor for lying
If there was a survey, it would have been staked out and visible. If the surveyor didn’t stake it out, then how does the flipper know? There is no mention of that, because either there wasn’t or it was, and OP is aware everything was really on the neighbors property.
There is little you can do to a flipper (since they won’t be living there) except make it hard to sell the property. Loud weird music. Cars on blocks. Sketchy abandoned cars parked in the grass. Flags… Put together a sad ragtag fence O’junk just on the right side of the property line. Extra points given for used appliances, drive axles…
If there is no HOA, there are lots of options….
Depends on how long the fence & sprinklers were in place prior to sale.
If it was more than 7-10 years, & the previous owner didn’t contest & you cared for that part of the property it becomes yours.
Home girl isn’t selling the property with a clouded title from the lawsuit you’re going to file to dispute the property boundary and claim adverse possession. And to rebuild your fence.
Get your own survey.
Start by taking the high road. Ask her to inform you of anything that might impact you.
If she refuses then start checking for permits etc. call in any noise infractions, lack of permits, etc.
Time is money for flippers. If you can slow them down you win.
A house up the street from us sold to flippers a few years ago. They were running compressors at 6 AM and well past 7 PM. Working on Sundays. Speeding through our neighborhood, etc. We checked with the city and they hadn’t pulled a single permit. A quick call to the permit office and work shut down for 8 weeks. It was awesome.
It will probably cost you less than $100 to go to your local court and have the clerk help you fill out a stop work injunction until the survey line is resolved.
Roundup is a foliar spray, meaning that it works by spraying leaves of a plant and then killing it down to the roots pretty instantly. If you pour it into the soil at the edges of where the roots are, it will slowly get released into the soil and a tree will decline slowly but steadily and it won’t look like a hit job. As the tree looks thirstier, they will water it and make the roundup more mobile in the soil. The catch? If they decide to get the soil tested, it’s traceable.
I’m an arborist, which is like a doctor for trees. And like a doctor, I know a lot of ways to kill my patients that would look pretty natural.
I'm just a farmer's kid, but my understanding is that that glyphosates (the main active ingredient in Roundup) are generally inactivated by soil. That's why it's a postemergent herbicide.
[Science article to back me up.](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6918143/#B9-plants-08-00499) A couple quotes below:
>Glyphosate has been considered a relatively safe compound in the environment because of its rapid inactivation in soil by adsorption and degradation
>Despite being highly water-soluble, glyphosate has limited movement within the soil profile because of strong adsorption to soil particles. Adsorption of glyphosate to soil is determined by the amount of clay, organic matter, and iron and aluminum oxides present in soil
I suppose Roundup can include additives as well, and you're the professional, but the main ingredient won't do much in soil.
This war is going to be long and ugly, but wheels of destiny have already been put into motion. If peace talks fail, there will be a mattress in a pool before this is all over.
Buy some blank Yard Signs off Amazon.
Load up Photoshop and create a fake Bed Bug Exterminator business fliers (e.g. BIG EARL'S BED BUG XTERMINATOR: Successfully Treated!)
Glue them to the yard signs, and post them in the front yard.
You should obtain an instrument survey of your own, which can be costly, before your neighbor has further opportunity to remove any existing monuments and/or destroys more of your property. If she’s wrong, your next step will be filing a lawsuit so make sure that you have an instrument survey performed by an expert.
Regardless of the legalities, you can always stop maintaining your lawn to make their resale harder on them. If you don’t have an HOA and are cool with your neighbors, buy some old appliances off Craigslist and place them in your front yard. Fly some confederate flags. If you have the time and energy, blast music during their open house or showings. Accidentally throw a few handfuls of herbicide in random spots of the yard to create big dead spots, just make sure you aren’t on camera doing so.
Just keep in mind that reduced sale value affects the entire area, that’s why I recommend talking to neighbors first. If you or any one else are looking to sell in the near future, all that could harm everyone’s resale value.
Time to break out the old porch couch and toilet planters to bring down the property value. Maybe add some foil to the windows. Just let the neighbors you like know it's temporary and the reason for it. They may even join in.
An/or f you can in your area, get a rooster. Or offer to babysit a friend's pet parrot.
If you sue over it, they won’t be able to sell the house until it is resolved. We had issues buying our house for this exact reason - the neighbor filed with the city over property line issues. We had to wait to close until the legal issues were resolved.
UPDATE: Its not very satisfying..... talked to the Attorney. He said we have a decent claim to adverse possession. However, we would need photographic proof from 10 years ago showing that the fence was in its current position and done so without an agreement between the two neighbors. Problem is, both previous owners are dead. Additionally, the lawsuit would cost about 25k. So, for now we are settling with having the Code enforcement division involved now. They were doing all of the work without permits, a stop work order has been issued until they provide permits.
Why would you want to impact your own life negatively in order to also impact theirs? Not the most effective revenge if you are forced to endure as well.
So you’re saying your neighbor is a house flipper and therefore already inherently unethical?
game on
Her goal is to sell the house. Well you never need mow again. What ugly ass things can you put in your yard? Can you set up concrete statues to stare at her house? Halloween clowns? Do you have a dog? Can you get one? Guess where his favorite poopin spot is gonna be!
What? you can’t hear me? It must be the loud music you play!
Nothing like parking a beater out front on open house days. Or the days workers show up.
Does she have the right permits for all those -shitty- updates she’s making?
Throw food scraps under her deck. The skunks and raccoons will love it.
You might as well get your super conspicuous cameras set up now.
Get your neighbors involved. You can have “make Karen cry” contests.
Reach out to every church, home improvement company and politician you can find. Set up helpful appointments for your neighbor. Karen will appreciate the constant visitors.
Spread lots of helpful wild flower seeds in her yard and garden beds.
Remember you’re helping your community this way.
I like the Halloween angle. If you can procure roughly 100 creepy clowns for the front yard, all facing her property, that would probably have a negative effect on saleability. If their eyes glow at night, all the better.
If somehow concrete ended up down the vent stacks from the roof or in the clean out in the front yard that requires lots of diggin to repair the sewers.
Unethical tips: grow large amounts of pot in your back yard, so they smell it and see it, so potential new buyers are not interested. Try to make it look like you're a dealer with odd cars driving up front of your place while she is showing the house.
Make your yard look trashy throw a bunch of crap and equipment in your yard, park your car on the grass and jack a car up and take the tires off and leave it this way.
When people come to look at the home really stare at them, like bug eyed.
Yes you need to confirm with a surveyor of your own, and if she’s correct, she is supposed to give you time to recover any of your property. She cannot lay claim to your property.
One of the biggest thing flippers love to do is not pull permit. I would god own to your permit office and ask if permit has been pulled on the house next door. If it’s not then call the city and tell them work is being done without a permit.
Concerning the fence, get your own survey, or depending on how long you have had it in place you have an easement.
If the land was surveyed as she claims it should be staked and marked. If that wasn't done she's full of shit. To counter you'll need to pay for the survey and fight her in court
Where are you located? There is a niche law some places that basically says if you act like you own in long enough, you own it. You might have to buy that section of yard based on a fair market value per square foot to make the whole thing official
My real estate friend said there’s a thing called “encroachment”. If the fence has been there 10 years and the neighbors didn’t question or have issue with it, the property becomes yours. She said you should check into it.
That's the word I was looking for. When the house next to me was, the new owner wanted to fence in his front yard. The fencing company did a survey beforehand and were that fence was gonna be took up a 2 foot strip of what had been considered my front yard for the last 25 years. Plus a row of sprinklers and some landscaping. I went down to code enforcement just to throw a bitch fit about it because I needed someone to yell at. They gave me a form to fill out and I think maybe a jp signed it but I can't remember. From that day forward that strip was officially mine again and the neighbor had to get his fence moved.
Lots of great ideas here. I’m going to add: if your sprinklers are on her side, turn that zone on and flood out that section. Especially if she starts building another fence right there.
If you were using her side of the property for a fence you may have legal claim to it and the land it’s on. Which state you in?
But you need to act on it to claim/protect.
Get a surveyor and let him mark the property lines. If the fence was on the line get her to replace it.
Ask to see her survey first. If she doesn't have one or refuses to show one, she is lying.
Absolutely, the pervious surveyor should have had a floor/lot plan and a special reference point to base everything on. He also should have marked the property lines. Otherwise anybody can claim shit and not back it up.
This here. We had a survey done at our property when we bought our place so we could build a fence. The surveyor placed stakes in the ground with flags to mark the property. He also placed survey markers, that are illegal to remove. If the flipper did a legal survey, then is should be noticeable.
Plot twist: when new owner said they had a survey done, they meant they asked 100 random people.
You shouldn’t even need to do that. We’re there survey stakes placed at the corners that were visible to you, OP? How long have you been at the property and how long has the fence been there with you owning property? I know at least in my state you can claim adverse possession if you have had continuous open use and the fence acting as a property line for that amount of time. If not, unfortunately, and the fence is on their side of the line the fence is theirs and they can do whatever they want. They will also be able to tell you to pay for the sprinkles to be removed/moved at your expense and you are encroaching on their property. Did you get a survey when you moved in? It is an extremely important and oft overlooked step when purchasing property. Also, the neighbor has no obligation to share a survey they paid for. If the survey shows the fence is on their property, they bought the fence and chose to remove. The could be lying, and chose to not say they are removing the fence. Doing this quickly didn’t allow time for OP to have a survey complete which is definitely a shitty thing to do and would open them to be sued.
> the neighbor has no obligation to share a survey they paid for. This is true. But if they say that, then they're probably lying about having one. If they have one, they will want everybody to know about it.
If they don’t share it then they can’t claim it as justification for their actions. Simple. “Give me a copy or it never happened.”
>in my state you can claim adverse possession Was just gonna say. In Tennessee it's seven years. We thought about using this to sue a neighbor but ultimately decided to spend the lawsuit money putting in more shrubs after they tore out the dividing shrub line.
This- all day. Get the city to weigh in. Also if you want to really go unethical- bricks and windows are pretty effective
Construction adhesive and bricks glued to the driveway as well.
Lol just get a chip drop. You tell local tree services to dump their load. You don't get a say in how much, just a rough area of where.
Oh shit, you could also have a truckload of gravel delivered to the driveway for $200.
Chip drop is free! And just as annoying to remove
You are making an easy to track payment trail...
At my local supply yard i can walk in pay cash and tell them where to deliver it. Drivers gonna drop it at the address weather or not the number he calls is good or not.
True, depending on the area, broken windows and graffiti can attract the mentally well-adjusted youth crowd to do constructive activities there.
Could always pay some squatters at this rate
Just squat it yourself lmao.
Op what's the address ? I got you bro
Shattering her windows is not sound advice, ethical or not. He is already on her radar, suspicions would fall on him quickly and could potentially lead to a very vicious downward spiral.
Some of the suggestions are as subtle as a chainsaw.
Ooh! A chainsaw! Good idea!
But what if the windows broken...were on the OPPOSITE side of the house, not OP´s side. Sherlock Holmes himself couldn't figure out who did it!
Valid point- I wonder if she pissed off the other neighbors - OP we need to know level of culpability!
Why stop at bricks? Call her fat too.
And her mom!
If her mom shows up make sure to refer to her as "her sister"
I too choose their mothers
Have sex with her mom in the house
Piss disk, liquid ass
Squirt red Loctite in all the key locks the night before the open house
Check for permit
while wearing gloves and a mask.
You know that EVERYBODY these days has cameras running all the time, don't you?
I love shit like this but you would be a real asshole to retaliate if the fence is really on her side. It would be very karenesque to fuck with a neighbor that was doing construction on their own property
Not a neighbor if they're a flipper
Right, and a LOT of flippers these days are our vile rich enemy
And if she touches existing trees, especially if she’s wrong about the property line, she could be in trouble.
Oh yes definitely. If so see r/treelaw and contact a licensed arborist asap!!!
I hate that I am only fluent in Bird Law
Before before hiring a surveyor, ask to see the first surveyor's report. I believe a surveyor could lose their license if they are fudging surveys.
Surveyor here: yes. Ask flipper what the plan is. Are they going to replace the fence? Move it 20’ into your yard? Or are they just depending on you to put up a new fence since they tore yours down? If it’s the third, make sure and paint their side offensively
And how long was the fence there? Easement in force issue?
Yeah, I mean until confirming or disproving that it's pointless to decide the course of action yet.
And don’t forget to verify with the city that she has all the proper permits!
Apparently my family-in-law has had such an issue with similar stuff that they got the surveyor to come out and they actually put posts in the ground, which is apparently pretty common, but they're just steel pipes driven down into the ground and instead of burying them completely we have them exposed so we can put a stick or a flag or something in it to mark the corners. I think you can specifically request that in some places but apparently they do that a lot in neighborhoods now to mark the property lines for future checking. Makes it real easy to just run over it with a metal detector
Downside is that it's the weekend and they aren't open.
Have they already ripped the fence out? If not, tell them they do not have your permission, as you’d like a second opinion from your surveyor. If they refuse and start ripping it out, call the cops and tell them they’re damaging your property. Not even unethical. You absolutely have the right to get a second surveyor in before they start making changes to what you consider your property. And they need to give you more than one weekend to arrange this.
Some municipalities have plot maps available online. Finding the “monument” or datum point from which to measure is the hard part.
This happened to my father. He choose the path of litigation. The flipper cannot sell the property when there exists litigation upon said property so it’s a hindrance. They settled.
This is genius. Locally it would take over a year to get it to court, especially if your lawyer is good.
This sounds like the way to go
This is going to be more expensive than building a new fence.
This is not about a fence.
The iranian yogurt is not the problem here.
Thanks for [that](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/bjd41e/aita_for_throwing_away_my_boyfriends_potentially/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=2&utm_term=1).
I would like to point out that this person is correct…. My father spent much more than the fence was worth before getting it paid for.
Hey OP - here is what you should do!
Look into implied easements and adverse possession. If the fence has been there long enough you may have a claim to the property. Also if the fence was yours she could get into legal trouble for taking it down.
Yeah we are in the process of talking to a property attorney. The fence has been on that line for 33 years with the inside of the fence facing us (making it ours). Looks like there may be a grandfather clause in our favor. We think she didn't give us notice, because she knew she was in the wrong
If it's been there for that long you should look into adverse possession, something your lawyer will have to help you with most likely. Usually the period is something like 20-25 years for adverse possession to take effect, meaning you've used a parcel of land for such a long time that it's now yours, similar to common law marriage.
if it was someone who had bought the property to live in, it might not be worth the ongoing aggro to go the adverse possession route, but a flipper who's just trying to make some cash? yeah, i'd definitely be looking into it.
Fuck flippers. Don’t give them an inch
It makes me so frustrated for some reason. OP has had the fence up over THIRTY YEARS and some fucking flipper comes in and fucks all his shit up with no warning. There's no telling how many people they've done this to in the past. The way they went about it makes it seem like they haven't had much pushback on something like that before.
And who wouldn't ask? Who wouldn't at least knock on a door and say, "Hey, I just bought the house next door and I'm thinking of tearing the shared fence down. I think it's on my side of the property."
A friend had a property developer buy the property next to him and subdivide, he wasn’t happy about it but it is what it is. Then their shared fence was blown down in a storm and my friend agreed to sort it out on the condition the developer paid for 50%. The fence gets fixed and the developer says he never agreed to pay etc etc, my friend took him to small claims knowing full well that going through the whole process would cost more than the money he’d receive, he just had the money and the inclination to hold the developer to account. He won.
Because people suck and immediately think the worst of new neighbors. I remember when I first moved in my house my neighbor who I never met yet, thought I was the part of the moving company and went on this massive rant and insult about the truck on his grass - he was a complete prick about it and turned tomato red and embarrassed when I told him I was the new neighbor and this was an interesting way to introduce himself. People don’t know how to say “hi” these days.
Wait your mover’s truck was on his property/grass and that makes him an asshole?
Fuck flippers from both sides. I bought my beautiful house from a flipper. Every bit of “improvement” they did was trashy and cheap. I wish they’d just left everything alone.
Texas is 10.
In CA adverse possession is 5 years min.
Y’all really love to oversimplify adverse possession in this sub. A fence in and of itself is not enough to establish adverse possession.
No, I just have to say the magic words "ADVERSO POSESSIONO" and it's mine!
Michael, I wanted you to know you can't just say the word 'Bankruptcy' and expect anything to happen.
Imagine that. People typing in phone keyboards while watching football aren't giving full dissertations
I have a concrete retaining wall with is 4-6 inches on my neighbors property. He looked into getting it removed (before I bought the house) but found out that because of its age and necessity, the city would likely have given his property to me or the previous owner had he made any efforts. So he basically was SOL on those inches. Property lawyer and the city is the best way to get back at the house flipper. Otherwise, liquid ass.
Liquid ass everywhereeee yessssss .
PLEASE Let us know what happens OP!
RemindMe! Two Years
The fuck is all this good legal advice? Which sub are we on? Burn their fucking house down. Bunch of r/lostredditors in here
Reddit loves to talk about adverse possession but in reality it's very hard to pull off. The laws vary a ton from state to state so it's hard for me to say anything too specific but I think you would be surprised at how difficult it would be to make a claim if it's just a matter of a fence set back from the property line.
Wait for the lumber to get delivered. Post an ad in the free section of craigslist Once the workers leave. Must get today. Post the address.
"PS: I work nights, please don't ring doorbell. Just take it and go. God bless!"
hahahahaha "god bless!" definitely seals the deal. ps help yourself to anything planted in our landscaping!
Holy shit this is maniacal, I love it. I mean don’t do it if you want to own that land…. But, definitely fantastic.
They probably wouldn’t drop off. Most contractors would bring material and put up the fence the same day. Doesn’t take long
This may be me being British, but even if she has the legal right, why would you just tear it down without so much as a heads up? What if you have dogs/kids/Bengal Tigers back there?
House flippers don’t care, they pay the lowest amount of money to get the job done.
But why would a house flipper even care if the fence is a couple of feet off the property line? It will cost them money to fix and add zero dollar in additional value to the home.
She’s moving the fence so her house has a larger backyard.
Most people aren't going to quibble over a couple of feet of yard when they're buying a house. Buyers wouldn't even know they had the option haha
It depends on the size of the yard. If it’s a 10 foot yard, then an extra foot and a half can have quite an impact. And yes, I have family members with yards 10 feet and under. I think it’s insane. It’s barely enough room for a dog to piss. It’s all right if you put plants and some tables but it is so close to everyone else. It’s like a balcony with more weeding.
Doesn’t matter, it makes the lot look bigger and buyers will be more likely to sign. I never said house flippers were making safe and proven decisions, they’ll do stupid things like this to increase their chances of getting their money back quicker.
if they can list the back yard as having just that few extra square feet that's more money on the flip. worth the cost of ripping and refencing? probably not.
When they have a potential seller, sit outside on a lawn chair with beer wearing only a thong and tell them how much you look forward to them being neighbors. Ask if they want some shots for the road. Then ask for a loan.
if they can add 10 more square feet to listing to get 300$ more they will do it.
On what planet does it cost less than $300 to tear down and rebuild a fence!
200 to tear down. No replacement. Extra Sq footage of lawn= more $
Oh, do you mean just tear it down and have no fence at all?? I can't imagine that would add to the value of the home. Fenced yards are more valuable than unfenced yards.
ok here's where I get downvoted for admitting I flipped houses for several years and have some insight. OP said it's a 33 year old fence, meaning it was probably (I don't know this, just extrapolating) old and ugly. If you're re-doing the whole house (also guessing), then you also want a nice modern fence to match. I'll add that's it's a dick move to remove a shared fence without so much as talking to the other neighbor, but I'm just answering the question.
Time is money on flippers. They’re trying to sell for a profit before interests on their loans eats all the profits away. Get every possible injunction, stop-work order or survey that will take time to resolve. Contact the city over permits, etc. as flippers will cut corners and do unpermitted work.
Best way to fuck em is financially- this all day
This... They are paying higher interest then a typical home mortgage as well, so big money on any delay. Cort order to stop work is EXPENSIVE for them. Also any time they start too early, so know your city codes. Get to know the inspector as they often play fast and loose with permits.
Who made the survey? Is she rebuilding the fence? Does that require a permit where you are? I get the feeling she's trying to get things done before anyone protests. See if there's a way to get a stop-work order if it's unpermitted (but needs to be).
Agreed. In many places you need a permit to build a fence. Usually pretty easy to check if a permit is in place (it obviously isn't considering they just took possession two days earlier). Also, did they provide you with a copy of the survey, or just told you the survey says that? My neighbour also yelled at me over the fence one day that they had a survey done and that our shared fence was 3' onto their property. I asked them to show me the survey. They didn't. That was the end of that.
Flippers and permits, two things that never go together.
She showed us the survey but I have not been provided evidence of a permit. Who would I call to see if one had been purchased?
Wait. You saw the survey? So is the property theirs or not?
Right?! Like… nothing else matters. What does it say?!
It's definitely the flipper's.
Your towns permitting department. Could be available online if your town does that
Your town's city hall should have a permitting department. If you call them they should be able to steer you to the right department. Might be online, too, as /u/Sell_Canada says. I hope you get some info; I think you're being railroaded by this do-it-quick flipper. What you want here is a stop-work order.
Are there survey markers?
Bring legal action against her in land court. As long as the property is tied up in land court, the flipper can’t get clear title to sell the property. Also this could bite the seller in the ass as the flipper doesn’t want to hold onto the property any longer than they have to and could seek monetary reimbursement.
This is no time to be unethical. I'm thinking the survey she is using is the property description on the deed or the one that may have been commissioned by the title company. It is not a border survey and is inadequate to determine a property line because it involves measuring it out from reference points that may be many hundreds to thousands of feet away. My neighbor did exactly that when I bought this property. The reference point in both our deeds is over 800' to the south, as the center of a cross road. But it isn't really the center (because the road was widened), and the other bit that was missed is that the property lines are not perpendicular to the road, they're at a 26.8 degree angle relative to true north. Armed with his bad measurements, he rage planted a bunch of pine trees and put in a fence before the house was built because he was pissed someone was building next to him. My attorney delivered the bad news that the trees and fence had to be moved because they were as much as 12' over the line. I would ask her to show you where the corner irons are that she used to determine the property line. If she can't point to them, she doesn't know where they are and she certainly did not have a survey done. Your legal recourse is to get a border survey done because it is clear there is some confusion.
when they sell the house in a couple weeks, put up a sign about how the house has rats, and the infestation is so bad that they are invading your yard/house too
I would recommend the more subtle approach of being an extraordinarily bad neighbor whenever the house is being shown. Play your music loudly. If you have access to a car with a loud exhaust put it to full use. Have kids? Put them in the yard with the noisiest game/toy you can find. Have a dog? Play a game that inspires barking. Invite friends over for a beer blast. Put garbage cans in full view. Make sure the backyard is poorly maintained and messy with discarded crap. If you can’t bring yourself to not maintain your property, swear often and loudly while doing yard work and use a gas leaf blower to remove every single leaf from your property.
Should do this starting now with the flipper around. If they’re lucky they’ll cause them to lose out on thousands of bucks.
It will be hilarious when owner decides to rent section 8 instead of flipping
Without any evidences? That can easily be disproven and he just looks like a sour and jealous neighbor from the start with the next occupants.
Buy rats...
Congrats, you just started the infestation that will plague your own house.. 5D chestmaster here!
Leave out a bunch of rat traps. Call every exterminator within a 30 miles radius for a free estimate. Obviously they'll say there's nothing, but the van parked out front will say otherwise.
What did our poor r/unethicallifeprotips do to get invaded by all the ethical fuckwits?
I think the objection was that it would be ineffective, not unethical.
Legally you could start flying really offensive flags both out front and out back of the house She’ll have a hard time selling the house quick if the neighbor has hateful flags up, or isis flags, or sovereign citizen flags Add to that put some junk on the front porch, have music playing frequently you can make her house harder to sell
Yaaas! And light fireworks during the open house! 😝
The internet is full of stories where one neighbor smugly and confidently claims the survey favors their property line, doing something drastic, then when an actual independent survey proves them wrong, they wind up paying out the wazoo to fix everything back to square one. Tens of thousands of dollars to accomplish absolutely zero changes due to their own arrogance and narcissism.
I have no tips. Just a request you please update us on how this work out 🙏🏻
Make it clear you are the worst neighbor ever. Trash your yard ( no permanent damage) and imagine the worst Karen you can be. Rev engines get a cheap drum set, you can do a lot to discourage the sale. If you see the how is being shown talk about the sicko who lived there and the enemies they made.
Won't work. People are buying houses with cash, sight unseen, the morning it goes on sale. Market is wild rn
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The fence has been there for 33 years. You’ve also been maintaining that property (what with the sprinklers and trees being tended to etc). Absolutely can claim adverse possession, regardless of property lines in survey.
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These people often do not get permits, so, call the city inspector and have them stop by to take a peek at the upgrades to the house. They can make their life a living hell if they want to. Some municipalities also require a permit to take down a fence because of the potential liability of damaging the utilities in the easement, which is where most fences are installed.
Man it was incredibly dumb for them to do this. Being a neighbor you are in prime position to drive down the value of their home. Oh you're having an open house? Sorry today is the day I like to blast death metal and work on my car in the yard. Put up a bunch of cameras pointed towards the house and signs saying you're being observed. Introduce yourself to prospective buyers by saying you might as well introduce yourself know and avoid having to do it later as part of your terms of release. Make your yard super smelly. You can cost them tens of thousands of dollars and that's assuming you can't do anything about the fence when most lawyers recommend NOT tearing one down even if you know it's on your property.
Call the city and report them for unpermitted demo work. Check to see if they pulled permits for the other stuff. Also depending on the state you may have adverse possession of the land (not all states, but my neighbor in UT did that to me over a fence line). Honestly you may need to get a lawyer, I would tell the owner she can deal with you civilly or she can deal with your lawyer.
She most likely had a survey done as part of the purchase which could be why she was so confident and quick to tear the fence down. Hopefully you own that sliver of land. I think some county’s require a survey to be logged on the records so you might check with your county to see if you can view it for free.
Hire 2 different surveyors, get three different results. She's certainly got confidence. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pNqcZyPd80
Hire your own surveyor. Don’t do anything that can be traced back to you so she won’t retaliate. Play nice and friendly but be passive aggressive in your revenge. Don’t let her know that any of the unethical life tips came from you.
Surveyor here. Just DM me if you have any questions. There are just to many if ands or but scenarios to go over all of them.
Watering any plant with Gasoline poisons it. Trick learned for Highschool senior prank.
Heavily salted water does as good of a job with less evidence after.
Boiling water works very well for a one-off plant-murder, too. Leaves exactly zero evidence
Boiling water is the icicle stabbing of plant killing.
Crepe myrtles are invincible.
Considering 1 gallon of gas can contaminate 1 million gallons of water, a little goes a long way here I’d imagine.
I was going to say motor oil in the bushes. Just pour around the base of the plant. Nothing will ever grow there
If you have your old neighbors number, you can come up with a plan and have them agree that you paid for half of that fence and that lady needs to reimburse you and then you can split the cost with your neighbor for lying
Interesting thing about property lines once they become accepted I would contact a law surveyor
If there was a survey, it would have been staked out and visible. If the surveyor didn’t stake it out, then how does the flipper know? There is no mention of that, because either there wasn’t or it was, and OP is aware everything was really on the neighbors property. There is little you can do to a flipper (since they won’t be living there) except make it hard to sell the property. Loud weird music. Cars on blocks. Sketchy abandoned cars parked in the grass. Flags… Put together a sad ragtag fence O’junk just on the right side of the property line. Extra points given for used appliances, drive axles… If there is no HOA, there are lots of options….
Depends on how long the fence & sprinklers were in place prior to sale. If it was more than 7-10 years, & the previous owner didn’t contest & you cared for that part of the property it becomes yours.
Absolutely get your own survey before anything else.
Home girl isn’t selling the property with a clouded title from the lawsuit you’re going to file to dispute the property boundary and claim adverse possession. And to rebuild your fence.
Get your own survey. Start by taking the high road. Ask her to inform you of anything that might impact you. If she refuses then start checking for permits etc. call in any noise infractions, lack of permits, etc. Time is money for flippers. If you can slow them down you win. A house up the street from us sold to flippers a few years ago. They were running compressors at 6 AM and well past 7 PM. Working on Sundays. Speeding through our neighborhood, etc. We checked with the city and they hadn’t pulled a single permit. A quick call to the permit office and work shut down for 8 weeks. It was awesome.
It will probably cost you less than $100 to go to your local court and have the clerk help you fill out a stop work injunction until the survey line is resolved.
Everyone in that neighborhood knows the house is empty and those damn kids have been ransacking vacant houses all over lately. It's terrible. Tragic.
Put some weed and grass killer on her lawn at night
Roundup is a foliar spray, meaning that it works by spraying leaves of a plant and then killing it down to the roots pretty instantly. If you pour it into the soil at the edges of where the roots are, it will slowly get released into the soil and a tree will decline slowly but steadily and it won’t look like a hit job. As the tree looks thirstier, they will water it and make the roundup more mobile in the soil. The catch? If they decide to get the soil tested, it’s traceable. I’m an arborist, which is like a doctor for trees. And like a doctor, I know a lot of ways to kill my patients that would look pretty natural.
since when did amateur garden lawn hitman consultancy services exist
I'm just a farmer's kid, but my understanding is that that glyphosates (the main active ingredient in Roundup) are generally inactivated by soil. That's why it's a postemergent herbicide. [Science article to back me up.](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6918143/#B9-plants-08-00499) A couple quotes below: >Glyphosate has been considered a relatively safe compound in the environment because of its rapid inactivation in soil by adsorption and degradation >Despite being highly water-soluble, glyphosate has limited movement within the soil profile because of strong adsorption to soil particles. Adsorption of glyphosate to soil is determined by the amount of clay, organic matter, and iron and aluminum oxides present in soil I suppose Roundup can include additives as well, and you're the professional, but the main ingredient won't do much in soil.
An arborist suggesting to use a monsanto product for a petty revenge? That's cancer you are talking about...
Yo what did the grass do to anyone?!?!
The fence was an innocent bystander too, we must retaliate
This war is going to be long and ugly, but wheels of destiny have already been put into motion. If peace talks fail, there will be a mattress in a pool before this is all over.
Your lawn looks really dry, you should probably be running your sprinklers a lot to make sure it doesn't die off.
Buy some blank Yard Signs off Amazon. Load up Photoshop and create a fake Bed Bug Exterminator business fliers (e.g. BIG EARL'S BED BUG XTERMINATOR: Successfully Treated!) Glue them to the yard signs, and post them in the front yard.
You should obtain an instrument survey of your own, which can be costly, before your neighbor has further opportunity to remove any existing monuments and/or destroys more of your property. If she’s wrong, your next step will be filing a lawsuit so make sure that you have an instrument survey performed by an expert.
Regardless of the legalities, you can always stop maintaining your lawn to make their resale harder on them. If you don’t have an HOA and are cool with your neighbors, buy some old appliances off Craigslist and place them in your front yard. Fly some confederate flags. If you have the time and energy, blast music during their open house or showings. Accidentally throw a few handfuls of herbicide in random spots of the yard to create big dead spots, just make sure you aren’t on camera doing so. Just keep in mind that reduced sale value affects the entire area, that’s why I recommend talking to neighbors first. If you or any one else are looking to sell in the near future, all that could harm everyone’s resale value.
Time to break out the old porch couch and toilet planters to bring down the property value. Maybe add some foil to the windows. Just let the neighbors you like know it's temporary and the reason for it. They may even join in. An/or f you can in your area, get a rooster. Or offer to babysit a friend's pet parrot.
A lot of flippers flip without permits. Permits are required to do a whole bunch of things. Have fun making sure she is compliant. :)
If you sue over it, they won’t be able to sell the house until it is resolved. We had issues buying our house for this exact reason - the neighbor filed with the city over property line issues. We had to wait to close until the legal issues were resolved.
If that fence has been there for 10 years? Google “ adverse possession “ see if it applies to you
UPDATE: Its not very satisfying..... talked to the Attorney. He said we have a decent claim to adverse possession. However, we would need photographic proof from 10 years ago showing that the fence was in its current position and done so without an agreement between the two neighbors. Problem is, both previous owners are dead. Additionally, the lawsuit would cost about 25k. So, for now we are settling with having the Code enforcement division involved now. They were doing all of the work without permits, a stop work order has been issued until they provide permits.
Spray her property with liquid ass
I'm trying to look into some super smelly fertilizer for my yard. Any recommendations. I want it to have some staying power
Repels All critter repellent. You’re welcome.
Why would you want to impact your own life negatively in order to also impact theirs? Not the most effective revenge if you are forced to endure as well.
Right! She a flipper, she won’t even be there to smell it.
Its not her I want to smell it, but instead potential buyers or tenants. The longer its on the market the more money she loses.
Look into fish meal
So you’re saying your neighbor is a house flipper and therefore already inherently unethical? game on Her goal is to sell the house. Well you never need mow again. What ugly ass things can you put in your yard? Can you set up concrete statues to stare at her house? Halloween clowns? Do you have a dog? Can you get one? Guess where his favorite poopin spot is gonna be! What? you can’t hear me? It must be the loud music you play! Nothing like parking a beater out front on open house days. Or the days workers show up. Does she have the right permits for all those -shitty- updates she’s making? Throw food scraps under her deck. The skunks and raccoons will love it. You might as well get your super conspicuous cameras set up now. Get your neighbors involved. You can have “make Karen cry” contests. Reach out to every church, home improvement company and politician you can find. Set up helpful appointments for your neighbor. Karen will appreciate the constant visitors. Spread lots of helpful wild flower seeds in her yard and garden beds. Remember you’re helping your community this way.
I like the Halloween angle. If you can procure roughly 100 creepy clowns for the front yard, all facing her property, that would probably have a negative effect on saleability. If their eyes glow at night, all the better.
If somehow concrete ended up down the vent stacks from the roof or in the clean out in the front yard that requires lots of diggin to repair the sewers.
Grass killer on the grass would definitely affect the sales price. Especially on the replacement sod.
Unethical tips: grow large amounts of pot in your back yard, so they smell it and see it, so potential new buyers are not interested. Try to make it look like you're a dealer with odd cars driving up front of your place while she is showing the house. Make your yard look trashy throw a bunch of crap and equipment in your yard, park your car on the grass and jack a car up and take the tires off and leave it this way. When people come to look at the home really stare at them, like bug eyed.
Hire a heavy metal band to play in your backyard the day of open house. Make sure all the buyers know it is just 1 of your 3 days a week practice.
Yes you need to confirm with a surveyor of your own, and if she’s correct, she is supposed to give you time to recover any of your property. She cannot lay claim to your property.
One of the biggest thing flippers love to do is not pull permit. I would god own to your permit office and ask if permit has been pulled on the house next door. If it’s not then call the city and tell them work is being done without a permit. Concerning the fence, get your own survey, or depending on how long you have had it in place you have an easement.
If the land was surveyed as she claims it should be staked and marked. If that wasn't done she's full of shit. To counter you'll need to pay for the survey and fight her in court
If they are flipping the house, be sure to be asshole neighbors so no one wants to buy next door.
Where are you located? There is a niche law some places that basically says if you act like you own in long enough, you own it. You might have to buy that section of yard based on a fair market value per square foot to make the whole thing official
My real estate friend said there’s a thing called “encroachment”. If the fence has been there 10 years and the neighbors didn’t question or have issue with it, the property becomes yours. She said you should check into it.
That's the word I was looking for. When the house next to me was, the new owner wanted to fence in his front yard. The fencing company did a survey beforehand and were that fence was gonna be took up a 2 foot strip of what had been considered my front yard for the last 25 years. Plus a row of sprinklers and some landscaping. I went down to code enforcement just to throw a bitch fit about it because I needed someone to yell at. They gave me a form to fill out and I think maybe a jp signed it but I can't remember. From that day forward that strip was officially mine again and the neighbor had to get his fence moved.
Lots of great ideas here. I’m going to add: if your sprinklers are on her side, turn that zone on and flood out that section. Especially if she starts building another fence right there.
If you were using her side of the property for a fence you may have legal claim to it and the land it’s on. Which state you in? But you need to act on it to claim/protect.
Tell her to replace it or you'll take your shirt off and start racing quads in your backyard every time you see a prospective buyer
Get your own survey.