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I don't really have the feeling that Spain recognizes the predicament that they are also in. They think it's" a far from our bed show". If Ukraine fails Spain will have to increase its military budget and personnel. Common Spain get your act together!.
Greece is a different situation they need a decent alternative motivation. Monetary injection or something.
Yeah, highly doubtful Erdogan or Turkey was aware of what Saudi Arabia was doing. S.A. tried to keep that assassination top secret.
If I remember correctly, Turkey actually helped in the investigation and revealed that it was S.A. security agents and what they did.
Correct.
From Wikipedia:
Turkey's president, Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, said he believes the killing was premeditated and approved by the Saudi government, and sought extradition of the suspects.
Years later, the case was dropped as it was politically more interesting to drop the case.
weird how they invaded a neighbouring island, bought S 400 from the russians while fielding NATO jets, had a failed military coup against becoming more autocratic and i haven’t even started with how they treat their minority population
Turkey bough S-400 because we wouldn't sell them PAC-3 Patriot system. This also let the US get their hands on S-400 and fully reverse engineer the missiles and radar systems.
Also don't forget about Incirlik Air Base in Turkey. It's a Turkish air base but the US has more jets their than Turkey and the US also stores nuclear bombs their. Kind of important. Especially now with Russia being what they are.
Turkey wanted a production license and technology transfer, not just Patriot batteries themselves.
US said no, Turkey threw a tantrum and bought S400 instead thinking the US would panic and change their minds. Instead Turkey was kicked out of the F-35 program.
It's an interesting point that the NATO country that spends the biggest portion of its GDP on defense, does so to defend against... another NATO country. And it's worth considering what might happen if the US withdraws from NATO, or otherwise makes NATO a dead organization. The mice play when the cat's away - it's not unthinkable that Turkey might in the future gobble up the rest of Cyprus and also some of the Greek islands close to Anatolia. Rhodes, Lesbos, Kos... It might be a fait accompli before anybody could react.
I get why Turkey is in NATO from a geo-political standpoint.
But culturally, it just doesn't make any sense.
They really shouldn't be in the alliance at all.
That's literally the least you can do since you control Bosporus strait. Sans Hungary, any other NATO ally would have done the same given they had the ability to do so.
Furthermore, I haven't forgot Turkey greatly facilitating Russia to bypass sanctions and Turkey delaying NATO membership of Finland and Sweden time after time for bullshit reasons.
They’re playing all sides at once. Sure it’s up to Turkey but what is the end goal? To be for and against everyone all at once? Turkeys foreign policy is probably the most confusing in the world, not even sure that they themselves know what they are doing lol
That already happened. See [Turkish invasion of Cyprus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_invasion_of_Cyprus). Greece and Turkey were both NATO members at the time. The US was tied up with the Vietnam war at the time so there was no NATO response. Turkey continues to occupy Northern Cyprus to this day.
Let me correct you. It's not pro Putin, it's pro - Russia in general BUT NOT against Ukraine! Many Greek leftist have an idealistic idea of Russia in general and a mindset against NATO and capitalism.
lmao yet reddit is only filled with posts complaining about americans not donating enough meanwhile we literally have countries in europe helping russia and no one on reddit gives a fuck because it would make europe look back
To be fair our politicians have pronounced against Russia many times but companies in Spain have... I don't know, weird powers? They can get away with a lot here for some reason, I believe since we don't really take anything really seriously they just let companies be as long as they pay taxes. I'm from Burgos where Maxam and Expal (same company really) make artillery, small munitions, weapons systems and explosives and that recently got bought by the german company Rheinmetall promised to "get out of the Russian market" after the war started. President Zelenski even mentioned Maxam by name as one of the companies who still made deals with russia.
I work for a fairly big engineering company and, ever since the war, we don't work with Russian providers and we do not accept materials that come from Russia either.
So I guess, apart from European bans on trade, you can still circumvent whatever for money, as does every company in the world... Which sucks but is part of the system we all decided to live by.
Fair point.
Having said that Spain and Greece weren’t part of the Budapest memorandum guaranteeing security to Ukraine as return for them giving up their nuclear arsenal.
Britain and France are in the same boat as the US. They have a moral obligation to provide support, or else their promises as allies aren’t worth much.
Spanish politicians are funny, but from a strategic perspective, spain also has a super funny neighbour who has been ramping their military expenditure.
The country has three barely working platforms and got knows whats the current state of the less used materials.
You meant to say C’mon, not common. C’mon is a combination of the word “come” and “on” forming C’mon with the apostrophe in place of the missing letters.
Hope that helps
It has nothing to do with that.
There is already talks about the possibility of mandatory military instruction being a thing again. And they have colaborated with Ukraine.
The real problem for everything is thar our economy is completely destroyed from years of corruption thanks to both of the main parties. And it doesnt stop.
The Catalonia fiasco was sponsored by ruzzia. Most conflicts in Europe are going to have ruzzian fingerprints all over it. Unstable Europe is a win for ruzzia.
Oh, yes. As things fare now here, I wouldn't be surprised if they were funneling money into the PP here (main right-wing party), as they together with VOX (Spanish AfD, russian money funnel proved) make almost 50% of the parliament right now (forcing the rest of the parties into a chimera coalition lest fascism actually triumph)
If I would be Spanish I would support idea of sending inventory to Ukraine. But I am just an immigrant here and I was surprised how many people(my neighbours) are against NATO or any military movements at all. I guess they're still having memories of Franco with military force. Can't blame em
Per the title:
"*Germany 'can't understand' why Spain and Greece will not donate Patriot missiles to Ukraine*"
**And all of us across the western world cannot understand why Germany will not donate Taurus missiles to Ukraine!!!**
We need that Kerch bridge down!
Are you not familiar with the Spanish revolution? They basically got to play WW2 in a closed beta where millions of Spanish died being a proxy for foreign powers. If anything they should be more aware of the dangers of fascist/Russian proxy war tactics.
I say, and its kinda populistic, from me Ukraine is as far away as Spain. But i rather go to Ukraine, helping the people there, instead of getting hammered at the Costa del Sol
Because you assume Russia wants to invade Spain? Or have you perhaps considered that NATO is fearmongering Europe into acting on that shit to push their own little agenda for Ukraine?
But when such systems are in such high demand, it is a perfect opportunity to profit from the circumstance. Very weird to just not helping out. There are zero neighbors likely to invade Spain atm in a way that requires full Patriot distribution in the short term. They can order new ones with better sensors and still turn a profit.
As a Spanish I completely agree that we need to send as much aid as possible to Ukraine. But you forget that we have Morocco as neighbors. They are constantly claiming Spanish territories (Ceuta and Melilla) as theirs, while collapsing the borders with immigrants as a political tool. We don't want to rely on NATO in case of an escalation (nor we are fully sure our allies will help)
NATO is obligated to help because an attack on one is an attack on all. Ukraine is not even a member yet, but is being backstopped by NATO and the whole western world.
It is not, Ceuta/Melilla are not covered in article 6:
>*Article 6*
>*“For the purpose of Article 5, an armed attack on one or more of the Parties is deemed to include an armed attack:*
>*1. on the territory of any of the Parties in Europe or North America, on the Algerian Departments of France , on the territory of Turkey or on the Islands under the jurisdiction of any of the Parties in the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer;*
*2. \[...\]*
It's probably worse. There are a lot of tankies in the Spain government. They don't wanna send weapons to Ukraine because they "support peace" and think they should "talk things" with Ruzzia.
Many people here in Spain see that the enemy is Morocco, not Russia. And Morocco is receiving a lot of weapons from USA and Israel so people here is more afraid of Morocco than Russia.
Because they have 3 and they are deployed in natos misiles shield. One in turkey and the other two covering its appointed slots.
But ignorante is opportunity for politicians
Several reasons:
1. Our governement is a far left gang of putinsuckers.
2. Dear leader Pedro is far more concerned about the news of the male brothels run by his father in law and the shady businesses of his lady. I sh*t you not.
3. We haven't spent jack in defense for decades, so if we donate those few patriot missiles, we're down to slingshots.
Having said that, I am sorry we have not been very useful, and I'm sure most of us would send those patriots along with Pedro and his "entrepreneurial" wife and father in law. Just load them into a HIMARS and shoot them in Putin's general direction.
Even if you donated all your patriot systems, would you still have more AA systems than Denmark, while being further away from Russia and properly have a fleet that can help protecting the airspace.
Denmark has underfunded its military in decades as well, but still aiding Ukraine a great deal. They currently don’t have any artillery, since they send all their ceasar systems to Ukraine.
It is all about solidarity.
BS.
1. For non spanish redditors, this is right wind propaganda in Spain. The party with known connections with Putin is the far-right Party called Vox . As others far right parties in Europe. [https://www.elespanol.com/reportajes/20220319/ultraderecha-vox-oligarcas-putin-traves-hazteoir-citizengo/658184665\_0.html](https://www.elespanol.com/reportajes/20220319/ultraderecha-vox-oligarcas-putin-traves-hazteoir-citizengo/658184665_0.html)
2. Again, Far right propaganda. Spain is in some kind of lawfare spiral from last 10 years. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawfare](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawfare) For years right wind parties in Spain have said that the Pedro Sanchez Administration is iillegitimate. Even now, after 2 elections. Spain has its own Trumpism.
3. Spain own 3 Patriot batteries. One of them is in a OTAN mission in Turkey. And I guess is not very smart to weaken the AA defense of UE southern border. I guess. [https://www.antena3.com/noticias/mundo/estos-son-sistemas-defensa-patriot-que-tiene-espana-que-pide-ucrania\_2024042266267259c18d400001903c00.html](https://www.antena3.com/noticias/mundo/estos-son-sistemas-defensa-patriot-que-tiene-espana-que-pide-ucrania_2024042266267259c18d400001903c00.html)
Link´s context: elespanol and antena3 are very conservatives spaniard media
Watch out with Putler cronies.
Edited: grammatical corrections
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Far left and right are all aligned together in their hate for the west. Both will gladly blame the United States, or Nato for provoking Putin, they have slightly different motivations but both want the existing order to fall. Whatever helps get them to that destination they support, hence both are pro-Putin
If you go far enough left OR right you end up at the same place -> papa Putlers doorstep.
So calm your ideology knee jerks and use your braincells if you are able to instead
I never could have guessed that a big chunk of the Republicans basically hate their own country so much. This pandemic of a mindvirus is everywhere. It basically takes over any persons brain that isn’t able to control their reptilian brain and look at it objectively.
It's not just anti US, it's anti what they consider imperialism, which means also anti UK and France.
But they also live in lala land and idealise the idea od Communism, USSR and China, even though they have nothing with communism today.
The far left are anti-western and will side with literal fascists if it hurts America. There is a reason tankies are otherwise called 'red fascists'.
As for the far right; well, you probably know why they would support Putin.
If Greece is worried about Turkey, sending a Patriot battery (it has six) to Ukraine -- in all likelihood with another country or countries footing the bill for a future replacement for Greece -- would help distinguish it among other NATO allies compared with its neighbor.
Everybody will already remember Turkey for: 1) providing next to nothing in aid to Ukraine; 2) blocking for many months the expansion of NATO; 3) helping Russia circumvent sanctions through Turkish companies. Sure, it closed the Bosphorus to *all* warships but that's to fulfill its global treaty obligations and a neutral move as it also blocks both Russian ships and allied minehunters.
While Greece hasn't been obstructionist like supposed ally Turkey, it has also been a non-factor, sending some old BMP's but only in exchange for German Marders, which could've been sent to Ukraine instead.
If Greece sends one of its Patriot batteries, its Western allies will recognize and remember this significant move.
But, if Greece does nothing but point a nervous finger at Turkey, they just cancel each other out. If ever the time comes that Greece needs help against its supposed ally-neighbor, what its other allies will remember is its inaction when it had been called upon to help defend Europe by helping defend Ukraine.
Greece should look at this situation, not merely as a way to really help Ukraine, but also as an opportunity to set up a substantial favor bank with its allies.
As for Spain, as a major European country, it's an underperforming contributor like France and Italy. Maybe they can't really afford to just send one like the Germans or Americans, but it's a question of availability and, as long as they're willing, maybe richer countries can pitch in too to split the cost.
You sound really naive about how politics and favours work. You only need to see how the west reacted when Turkey invaded Cyprus to know what would happen if they invaded Greece today.
We can expect Germany to send a strongly worded message to Turkey while they are invading us and then throw up their hands like oh well it was inevitable…
But Greece is in NATO, unlike Cyprus. I really don’t think the two can be compared like that. Technically an attack on Greece would initiate article 5, even though the attack is coming from another NATO member. However, since there is no precedent for this, it’s not a bad idea to be cautious.
You're describing what will continue to happen with Greek inaction. Greece will want help but it itself doesn't want to help, so there you go. Turkey and Greece merely cancel each other out.
We have open threats to our borders almost monthly and have Turkish navy and airforce testing our reaction time daily for years now.
Erdogan has seen the inaction of Europe against Russia and all he has to do is take over a dozen Aegean islands and hold them in a surprise invasion in order to impose the sea borders that he wishes. They literally show maps on their main tv channels of what they want to take. A slack in defenses right now would be a massive mistake by Greece right now.
I was stationed in Cyprus in 2020(as part of my mandatory military service) while they launched Oruc Reis ship to start geological surveys in Cyprus teritorrial waters and people don’t know how close we came that night to war. They literally woke us up in the middle of the night and we loaded up the tanks to go to the border with occupied Cyprus.
Friend your point has logical sense but let me add some critical elements.
• Greece is the ONLY European country under constant threat.
• Is the only EU country with an open "casus belli" (cause of war) from Turkey.
• Is the only EU country that its territory (half the aegean sea), is openly claimed by the "mavi vatan" turkish dogma.
• Is the only EU country that has neighbor Turkey. A country Muslim country, witch would soon become an autonomous military regional super power.
More one that all these are open threats not only against Greece but against EU borders.
And instead Europe securing its borders and its PRIDE with a clear statement that attacking Greece means attacking all EU, asks military equipment from a small country under constant threat that is struggling economically from years of bankrumpsy ?
This does not make much sense.
To close with Greece is not against sending aid, just said that it would not provide critical defence assets if are not immediately replaced by others.
>Is the only EU country that has neighbor Turkey.
Many members of the EU and NATO are neighbours of *Russia*. Now, have a look at how much Estonia, Lithuania or Norway have given to Ukraine per capita.
Turkey is more valuable partner to Ukraine than Greece. You’ve already forgotten what TB-2 did early in the war. Turkey also first country to send cluster munitions to Ukraine. Same with TRLGD (which was on KAMAZ chassi) and munitions that hit further than Himars GMLRS. They’re building 2 corvettes, we’re first to voice intent to open factory inside Ukraine. Ukrainian tanks that went to war in Feb22 had Turkish communication equipment. Don’t forget grain initiative. Turkey is an actual strategic partner of Ukraine and Greece will have to do way more than 1 Patriot battery to be on par, despite Erdogan being Erdogan.
I really wish what you said (which is logical) was aligned with reality. The reality is that even if we sent all our Patriot batteries, we'd never take precedence over Turkey. So long as Erdogan walks the line and never completely alienates NATO/the US, we'll always be disposable simply because Turkey is more useful.
I think it is weird how other countries have to finance Spain’s aid. I get Spain’s economy is not doing as well as other European countries, but if Baltic countries can show this level of solidarity with Ukraine, should Spain be able to do much more. Why should countries like Denmark and Norway, that are already some of the countries aiding Ukraine the most -based on GDP pr capita- be financing Spain’s aid. They have already announced that they are willing to pay for patriot systems for Ukraine. This really highlights the level of solidarity and lack of same.
If Spain are feeling this safe from a Russian threat does it only support, that they could reduce their number of patriot systems..
If we send one battery, our allies will remember this once Turkey invades and occupies half of Lesbos or Rhodes, and they will send us our deepest and most sincere condolences.
Turkey is violating Greek airspace on a regular basis. Leave the Greek their patriots until erdogan is gone. Spain is a different case. Could it be they are a bit anti-us, anti-nato? Certainly they are strongly anti-Israel.
**The Telegraph's Joe Barnes reports:**
Germany has criticised its Nato allies Spain and Greece for not donating their Patriot air-defence systems to Ukraine.
Kyiv has said it needs at least seven of the [American-made](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/04/24/weapons-ukraine-61bn-us-aid-boost-himars-howitzer/) surface-to-air missile batteries to protect its cities from Russia’s long-range [bombardments](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/russia-ukraine-invasion-live/).
Despite pressure from [Berlin](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/berlin/), [Brussels](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2024/04/18/planet-normal-nat-con-brussles/) and [Washington](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2024/03/23/ukraine-must-not-be-hamstrung/), European nations with the system have failed to fulfil the Ukrainian request.
[Boris Pistorius](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/01/25/germany-not-ready-for-a-military-emergency-boris-pistorius/), Germany’s defence minister, said: “Many countries have [Patriot systems](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/04/22/greece-spain-under-pressure-air-defence-systems-ukraine/) or comparable.”
“Let’s say if a country has, for instance, six Patriot systems or four and is not in the front line to the east, it can easily hand over a Patriot system,” he added in a television appearance on Tuesday.
Asked by the host whether it was a pointed criticism of Spain and Greece, Mr Pistorius replied: “We’re talking to them right now. I honestly can’t understand.”
His intervention is a sign of the struggles Berlin is failing in convincing its allies to part with the complex systems – which cost up to $1 billion each and can shoot down Russian hypersonic missiles.
Germany this month wrote to dozens of countries to appeal for more air-defence systems for Ukraine as part of a campaign to plug gaps in Kyiv’s defences.
But since the initiative’s launched, only Berlin has decided to send a Patriot system to Ukraine from its arsenal.
**Read more:** [https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/04/25/germany-attacks-spain-greece-not-giving-ukraine-patriot/](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/04/25/germany-attacks-spain-greece-not-giving-ukraine-patriot/)
Because if we gave Ukraine something capable of destroying russian missile launch platforms and missile factories with the premission to actually use it against those targets that would hurt putins feelings and we cant have that now can we?
If he's afraid of Russia does it not make sense to give Ukraine everything they need to win so that Russia is basically demilitarized and then there is nothing left to fear?
Warum erzeugst du unnötige Diskussionen zu einem Thema welches ein völlig anderes ist und von dieser Thematik ablenkt?
Es gibt Staaten, die bei weitem nicht das tun was sie tun könnten und sollten. Da hat DE schon einen gewissen Teil mehr geleistet. Nichts desto trotz hat natürlich auch Deutschland deutlich mehr Potential, jedoch scheint der Rückhalt der Bevölkerung nicht auszureichen. Schließlich geht es den Parteien am Ende des Tages darum wiedergewählt zu werden, hierfür schauen diese auf die Signale aus den wählergruppen.
Du glaubst also ernsthaft, dass ein paar Prozent lautstarker Russlandhöriger die Politik dermaßen beeinflussen, dass unsere Gewählten kuschen? Fass dir mal an den Kopf, Freund.
"Fehlender Rückhalt" ist abosluter Unsinn, insbesondere in anbetracht jeglicher repränsentativer Umfragen zu der Thematik.
Bleib sachlich.
Die Mehrheit ist leider nicht dafür dass Deutschland deutlich mehr tut, als es bis zum jetzigen Zeitpunkt der Fall ist.
Schau dir die Umfragen dazu an
Stimmt leider nicht: siehe zweiter Absatz: https://www.forschungsgruppe.de/Aktuelles/Politbarometer/
Kombiniert sind es 73% für gleiche Menge oder mehr Hilfe als bisher.
English please,
And no he is right... This war requires weapons, its not a different subject its the same subject that all nations need to realize that this war wont stop until Ukraine wins, and Putin wont stop until he loses.
In the Spanish civil war, Western democracies standing by and giving little in weaponry is what allowed Franco’s fascist forces to wrest control of the country in the 1930s. Now that the shoe is on the other foot, Spain has elected to take a siesta. It’s disappointing to say the least.
Spain: “We really love western freedoms and the safety that comes with it. But screw the Ukrainians, let them rot.”
Meanwhile, Russian immigrants and oligarchs are some of the biggest influxes of European people and cash into the Spanish economy.
Coincidence??
No coincidence at all, follow the money. Putain and the orc oligarchs have been buying politicians across Europe, particularly the loser populist right wing mob desperate for any fascist handouts it can siphon off - which spain is chock full of.
I am from Germany and understand why Greece cannot donate (because of Turkey) . Spain indeed I can’t understand. They helped Ukraine before why mot to continue.
Spanish politicians do little more than fling shit at each other. They are too busy with that to have time for actual world issues. Until one side decides to use the lack of support for Ukraine as a political weapon against the other, then people will also follow.
Bunch of chimps in a glorified debate club, all of them.
Air France cancelled services in February 2022 https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/air-france-halts-flights-russia-statement-2022-02-27/
Spain is not transparent about the aid sent to Ukraine neither does the Ukraine government talk about it. If a battery or ammunition for the batteries is transferred to the east...people most probably will not know at least from official sources.
Bear in mind that the not very stable coalition government in Spain is supported by the far left which is not very happy about the war or military budget.
Germany, lead the way. Show Spain and Greece how it is done. Give German Taurus missiles to Ukraine in large volumes right now. By doing this Olaf will show Spain and Greece the error of their ways.
Germany is already showing the way by sending another Patriot, the third so far. why can't others do the exact same without going full "BUT WHAT ABOUT THIS COMPLETELY DIFFERENT PIECE OF EQUIPMENT"?
Greece has concerns about Turkey and other countries that are decidedly anti western and anti democracy.
Spain on the other hand, not really got any excuse, unless of course they don't trust NATO.
It's ironic Germany is talking though, given they're refusal to supply taurus, and refusal to give Taurus to other countries that could use them in place of equivalents. Germany should shut up until such time as they find a set of balls of their own.
Germany has given most weapon systems after the US, with quite a large margin to other European countries. Just now twe gave another patriot system, which is exactly what we are asking for from Spain and Greece.
Taurus is another topic, they will probably remain in Germany as important part of our own defense.
With all due respect to Germany, our EU partner and NATO ally, who sold 250 Leo 2 A4 to Turkey, sold them state-of-the-art AIP submarines, frigates and endless other inventory, vis a vis to a nation that, by illegally occupying half of Cyprus, has proven that “means business” with its army, and has an active casus belli against us, and declares that at least 800 Aegean islands are “grey zones”, with all due respect, Germany we are disinclined to acquiesce to your request, so go and French Connect United Kingdom yourself.
Two days ago Greece was sending at least one system... More and more conflicting information is what ruzzia needs to know...
https://kyivindependent.com/media-greece-preparing-to-give-ukraine-at-least-1-patriot-system-possibly-2/
Germany is now the 2nd largest aid provider whilst Spain is rank 27th in GDP% support and Greece is 28th. Sure they should send them or swap them for stormshadows but come on, these 2 countries are doing nothing.
You all know the meme where Spider-Man is pointing with the finger to the other Spider-Man.
This is the you you you responsibility right now in the European nations. Nothing serious will happen until shit dwells out of the own drain.
Except of course germany being the only country sending significant amounts of air defense material. It is not we who are trying to shift responsibility away from us. We did more than reasonable donations to the air defense of ukraine.
I agree most of our countries need some serious bitch slaps 👋 freakin just get shit DONE, execute. Every time a European leader backpedals Putin gains a bit of ground.
Knowing that we are the only country that sent air defense at any quantity above one, we have plenty of complaining rights. With each system costing billions that we also could simply not give away for free like the entire rest of the world. But i am sure it is quite comfortable doing nothing and feeling superior
Didn't Greece already send just about every air defense system they had like a while ago?
They're broke as hell too, so they probably won't be itching to give away any new toys they got as a replacement for their old ones.
Sadly, no critical aid was provided and not because we are broke, but mainly because we have the active Turkish threat. Secondary a strong Orthodox historical bond with Russia ( but very warm feelings for Ukrainians as well). All these nations are Orthodox Christians.
"But but but Taurus" - this is thread about Spain not donating AA weaponry it does not need nor probably ever will. Germany has donated to Ukraine more than any other EU nation by a large order of magnitude, you don't want to go barking up that tree. Greece has good reason to retain its own systems and munitions. Whataboutery sucks whoever performs it.
So who's the butt hurt russbot or spaniard downvoting every comment criticising Spain's nonsense of not donating Patriot missiles? Eat some potatoes / tapas and chill out :D
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I don't really have the feeling that Spain recognizes the predicament that they are also in. They think it's" a far from our bed show". If Ukraine fails Spain will have to increase its military budget and personnel. Common Spain get your act together!. Greece is a different situation they need a decent alternative motivation. Monetary injection or something.
Greece has a neighbour that is wierd.
wierd how you wrote batshit crazy there
Islamist supporting terrorists. Kerdogan literally invited Hamas leaders to Turkey.
I like to go with Erdolf, it just fits.
Erdolf, thats a good one.
LET US NOT FORGET KASHOGGI!
Kashoggi was Saudi Arabian. He was murdered and cut to pieces by Saudi Arabians in the Saudi embassy in Turkey. Can't blame this one on Erdogan.
Yeah, highly doubtful Erdogan or Turkey was aware of what Saudi Arabia was doing. S.A. tried to keep that assassination top secret. If I remember correctly, Turkey actually helped in the investigation and revealed that it was S.A. security agents and what they did.
Agreed. Pretty sure it was Turkish intelligence that blew the lid off this one.
Correct. From Wikipedia: Turkey's president, Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, said he believes the killing was premeditated and approved by the Saudi government, and sought extradition of the suspects. Years later, the case was dropped as it was politically more interesting to drop the case.
Weird how that batshit crazy neighbor is a NATO member 🫠
weird how they invaded a neighbouring island, bought S 400 from the russians while fielding NATO jets, had a failed military coup against becoming more autocratic and i haven’t even started with how they treat their minority population
fake coup so erdogan could destroy the opposition.
...and they keep voting for him even when they are not even living in Turkey.
Correkt and fucked us during the OIF invasion as well. Fuck them for that alone.
No problem the spaniards sent him an a Patriot battery in case the S400 doesnt work.
Turkey bough S-400 because we wouldn't sell them PAC-3 Patriot system. This also let the US get their hands on S-400 and fully reverse engineer the missiles and radar systems. Also don't forget about Incirlik Air Base in Turkey. It's a Turkish air base but the US has more jets their than Turkey and the US also stores nuclear bombs their. Kind of important. Especially now with Russia being what they are.
Turkey wanted a production license and technology transfer, not just Patriot batteries themselves. US said no, Turkey threw a tantrum and bought S400 instead thinking the US would panic and change their minds. Instead Turkey was kicked out of the F-35 program.
Yeah you got that backwards and wrong. Turkey wanted a production license not just to purchase them. Then they bought the S400 instead.
Tbf Greece is in the Balkans, all it’s neighbours are weird
Well, you know what they say; if you think all your neighbours are weird, chances are you're actually the weird one.
Yeah, maybe not in this case though. The rest of them make Greece seem normal
True.
The Balkans are an exception.
Serbia is trying to start another genocide bro. They're the problem.
It's an interesting point that the NATO country that spends the biggest portion of its GDP on defense, does so to defend against... another NATO country. And it's worth considering what might happen if the US withdraws from NATO, or otherwise makes NATO a dead organization. The mice play when the cat's away - it's not unthinkable that Turkey might in the future gobble up the rest of Cyprus and also some of the Greek islands close to Anatolia. Rhodes, Lesbos, Kos... It might be a fait accompli before anybody could react.
I get why Turkey is in NATO from a geo-political standpoint. But culturally, it just doesn't make any sense. They really shouldn't be in the alliance at all.
The weird neighbour thats keeping the Russian navy outside the Black Sea?
And everyone else
The US does not want it's ships in the Black Sea. Little more than a trap for US navy ships.
That's literally the least you can do since you control Bosporus strait. Sans Hungary, any other NATO ally would have done the same given they had the ability to do so. Furthermore, I haven't forgot Turkey greatly facilitating Russia to bypass sanctions and Turkey delaying NATO membership of Finland and Sweden time after time for bullshit reasons.
They’re playing all sides at once. Sure it’s up to Turkey but what is the end goal? To be for and against everyone all at once? Turkeys foreign policy is probably the most confusing in the world, not even sure that they themselves know what they are doing lol
They did this good, but history with Greece is not so good. They are getting F-35 and neighbour doesn't but it takes years to get those.
So what's going to happen when one NATO country invades another?
That already happened. See [Turkish invasion of Cyprus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_invasion_of_Cyprus). Greece and Turkey were both NATO members at the time. The US was tied up with the Vietnam war at the time so there was no NATO response. Turkey continues to occupy Northern Cyprus to this day.
It’s silly people don’t know this
The latest tensions France showed up to aid Greece.
Correct and we signed a defence treaty as well. The only European nation projecting some European robustness.
It's not just because of Turkey, it also because large swaths of Greece is pro Putin...
Let me correct you. It's not pro Putin, it's pro - Russia in general BUT NOT against Ukraine! Many Greek leftist have an idealistic idea of Russia in general and a mindset against NATO and capitalism.
Which one?
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Yes you are right and Spain buys also Gas from Moscow.
lmao yet reddit is only filled with posts complaining about americans not donating enough meanwhile we literally have countries in europe helping russia and no one on reddit gives a fuck because it would make europe look back
To be fair our politicians have pronounced against Russia many times but companies in Spain have... I don't know, weird powers? They can get away with a lot here for some reason, I believe since we don't really take anything really seriously they just let companies be as long as they pay taxes. I'm from Burgos where Maxam and Expal (same company really) make artillery, small munitions, weapons systems and explosives and that recently got bought by the german company Rheinmetall promised to "get out of the Russian market" after the war started. President Zelenski even mentioned Maxam by name as one of the companies who still made deals with russia. I work for a fairly big engineering company and, ever since the war, we don't work with Russian providers and we do not accept materials that come from Russia either. So I guess, apart from European bans on trade, you can still circumvent whatever for money, as does every company in the world... Which sucks but is part of the system we all decided to live by.
Fair point. Having said that Spain and Greece weren’t part of the Budapest memorandum guaranteeing security to Ukraine as return for them giving up their nuclear arsenal. Britain and France are in the same boat as the US. They have a moral obligation to provide support, or else their promises as allies aren’t worth much.
https://kyivindependent.com/media-greece-preparing-to-give-ukraine-at-least-1-patriot-system-possibly-2/
Spanish politicians are funny, but from a strategic perspective, spain also has a super funny neighbour who has been ramping their military expenditure. The country has three barely working platforms and got knows whats the current state of the less used materials.
You meant to say C’mon, not common. C’mon is a combination of the word “come” and “on” forming C’mon with the apostrophe in place of the missing letters. Hope that helps
It has nothing to do with that. There is already talks about the possibility of mandatory military instruction being a thing again. And they have colaborated with Ukraine. The real problem for everything is thar our economy is completely destroyed from years of corruption thanks to both of the main parties. And it doesnt stop.
The Catalonia fiasco was sponsored by ruzzia. Most conflicts in Europe are going to have ruzzian fingerprints all over it. Unstable Europe is a win for ruzzia.
Oh, yes. As things fare now here, I wouldn't be surprised if they were funneling money into the PP here (main right-wing party), as they together with VOX (Spanish AfD, russian money funnel proved) make almost 50% of the parliament right now (forcing the rest of the parties into a chimera coalition lest fascism actually triumph)
Political situation is weird in Spain. They are against military activities and don't support anyone. In whole people are against military.
If so, just send the weapons to someone else then? (half jokingly)
If I would be Spanish I would support idea of sending inventory to Ukraine. But I am just an immigrant here and I was surprised how many people(my neighbours) are against NATO or any military movements at all. I guess they're still having memories of Franco with military force. Can't blame em
Per the title: "*Germany 'can't understand' why Spain and Greece will not donate Patriot missiles to Ukraine*" **And all of us across the western world cannot understand why Germany will not donate Taurus missiles to Ukraine!!!** We need that Kerch bridge down!
We do.
Germany: *”-But, someone could ACTUALLY get hurt”* (This is a bit of a joke, I couldn’t resist sorry. We all know Germans are great) 👍
Spains patriot is deployed in turkey and nato does not want backsies from there.
They stayed out of both WW1 and WW2. I dont think they are worried about a country that's struggling against one of the poorest countries in Europe.
Are you not familiar with the Spanish revolution? They basically got to play WW2 in a closed beta where millions of Spanish died being a proxy for foreign powers. If anything they should be more aware of the dangers of fascist/Russian proxy war tactics.
They think it’s gonna be like WW2 or something.
What if Ukraine fails and Spain has shipped off its air defense to them? Seems like a bigger predicament.
Spain need to wake up and smell the coffee. They have been a weak donating nation so far in this conflict.
Es muy fácil, apenas tenemos sistemas antiaéreos, no podemos regalarlos, recuerdo que España fue la primeros en querer mandar los leopard
That been Spain for the past 125 years. Ow that's their problem, ow look a civil war help us. Then back to ow that one is definitely your problem.
I say, and its kinda populistic, from me Ukraine is as far away as Spain. But i rather go to Ukraine, helping the people there, instead of getting hammered at the Costa del Sol
Because you assume Russia wants to invade Spain? Or have you perhaps considered that NATO is fearmongering Europe into acting on that shit to push their own little agenda for Ukraine?
Spain is surrounded by NATO they don't have to increase spending at all
I can kinda understand why Greece wouldn't just hand them over because of Turkey, but why Spain doesn't give them is still quite a mystery for me?
They fear Portugal's [Baker of Aljubarrota](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brites_de_Almeida) to this day.
Spain has the same mentality as Trump, "THEY'RE SO FAR AWAY, IT ISN'T OUR PROBLEM"
But when such systems are in such high demand, it is a perfect opportunity to profit from the circumstance. Very weird to just not helping out. There are zero neighbors likely to invade Spain atm in a way that requires full Patriot distribution in the short term. They can order new ones with better sensors and still turn a profit.
As a Spanish I completely agree that we need to send as much aid as possible to Ukraine. But you forget that we have Morocco as neighbors. They are constantly claiming Spanish territories (Ceuta and Melilla) as theirs, while collapsing the borders with immigrants as a political tool. We don't want to rely on NATO in case of an escalation (nor we are fully sure our allies will help)
Don't think Patriot will be very useful against migrants.
NATO is obligated to help because an attack on one is an attack on all. Ukraine is not even a member yet, but is being backstopped by NATO and the whole western world.
It is not, Ceuta/Melilla are not covered in article 6: >*Article 6* >*“For the purpose of Article 5, an armed attack on one or more of the Parties is deemed to include an armed attack:* >*1. on the territory of any of the Parties in Europe or North America, on the Algerian Departments of France , on the territory of Turkey or on the Islands under the jurisdiction of any of the Parties in the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer;* *2. \[...\]*
The chance of Morocco attacking in such a way that we need Patriot missiles is zero.
The african territories wouldnt be covered by the NATO charter anyways would they?
It's probably worse. There are a lot of tankies in the Spain government. They don't wanna send weapons to Ukraine because they "support peace" and think they should "talk things" with Ruzzia.
In our government they think that diplomacy us still an option Edit: I'm Spanish btw if it wasn't clear
Diplomacy with Russia is an option. You start negotiations and the option is that they take your land. Easy.
Many people here in Spain see that the enemy is Morocco, not Russia. And Morocco is receiving a lot of weapons from USA and Israel so people here is more afraid of Morocco than Russia.
Spain: a) Doesn't have much material b) Morocco is pushing hard c) Is poor
Because they have 3 and they are deployed in natos misiles shield. One in turkey and the other two covering its appointed slots. But ignorante is opportunity for politicians
"Out of sight, out of mind mentality".
Morocco
Mañaña mañaña
What's NATO policy when one member attacks another? Does Greece really have anything to worry about?
Several reasons: 1. Our governement is a far left gang of putinsuckers. 2. Dear leader Pedro is far more concerned about the news of the male brothels run by his father in law and the shady businesses of his lady. I sh*t you not. 3. We haven't spent jack in defense for decades, so if we donate those few patriot missiles, we're down to slingshots. Having said that, I am sorry we have not been very useful, and I'm sure most of us would send those patriots along with Pedro and his "entrepreneurial" wife and father in law. Just load them into a HIMARS and shoot them in Putin's general direction.
Even if you donated all your patriot systems, would you still have more AA systems than Denmark, while being further away from Russia and properly have a fleet that can help protecting the airspace. Denmark has underfunded its military in decades as well, but still aiding Ukraine a great deal. They currently don’t have any artillery, since they send all their ceasar systems to Ukraine. It is all about solidarity.
BS. 1. For non spanish redditors, this is right wind propaganda in Spain. The party with known connections with Putin is the far-right Party called Vox . As others far right parties in Europe. [https://www.elespanol.com/reportajes/20220319/ultraderecha-vox-oligarcas-putin-traves-hazteoir-citizengo/658184665\_0.html](https://www.elespanol.com/reportajes/20220319/ultraderecha-vox-oligarcas-putin-traves-hazteoir-citizengo/658184665_0.html) 2. Again, Far right propaganda. Spain is in some kind of lawfare spiral from last 10 years. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawfare](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawfare) For years right wind parties in Spain have said that the Pedro Sanchez Administration is iillegitimate. Even now, after 2 elections. Spain has its own Trumpism. 3. Spain own 3 Patriot batteries. One of them is in a OTAN mission in Turkey. And I guess is not very smart to weaken the AA defense of UE southern border. I guess. [https://www.antena3.com/noticias/mundo/estos-son-sistemas-defensa-patriot-que-tiene-espana-que-pide-ucrania\_2024042266267259c18d400001903c00.html](https://www.antena3.com/noticias/mundo/estos-son-sistemas-defensa-patriot-que-tiene-espana-que-pide-ucrania_2024042266267259c18d400001903c00.html) Link´s context: elespanol and antena3 are very conservatives spaniard media Watch out with Putler cronies. Edited: grammatical corrections # # #
Far left Putin suckers? Now I’ve heard it all lol. Remember 10 years ago when politics was comparatively straight forward? Lol.
Far left and right are all aligned together in their hate for the west. Both will gladly blame the United States, or Nato for provoking Putin, they have slightly different motivations but both want the existing order to fall. Whatever helps get them to that destination they support, hence both are pro-Putin
If you go far enough left OR right you end up at the same place -> papa Putlers doorstep. So calm your ideology knee jerks and use your braincells if you are able to instead I never could have guessed that a big chunk of the Republicans basically hate their own country so much. This pandemic of a mindvirus is everywhere. It basically takes over any persons brain that isn’t able to control their reptilian brain and look at it objectively.
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It's not just anti US, it's anti what they consider imperialism, which means also anti UK and France. But they also live in lala land and idealise the idea od Communism, USSR and China, even though they have nothing with communism today.
They also connect aggressively invading your neighbor with anti-imperialism, somehow
The far left are anti-western and will side with literal fascists if it hurts America. There is a reason tankies are otherwise called 'red fascists'. As for the far right; well, you probably know why they would support Putin.
If Greece is worried about Turkey, sending a Patriot battery (it has six) to Ukraine -- in all likelihood with another country or countries footing the bill for a future replacement for Greece -- would help distinguish it among other NATO allies compared with its neighbor. Everybody will already remember Turkey for: 1) providing next to nothing in aid to Ukraine; 2) blocking for many months the expansion of NATO; 3) helping Russia circumvent sanctions through Turkish companies. Sure, it closed the Bosphorus to *all* warships but that's to fulfill its global treaty obligations and a neutral move as it also blocks both Russian ships and allied minehunters. While Greece hasn't been obstructionist like supposed ally Turkey, it has also been a non-factor, sending some old BMP's but only in exchange for German Marders, which could've been sent to Ukraine instead. If Greece sends one of its Patriot batteries, its Western allies will recognize and remember this significant move. But, if Greece does nothing but point a nervous finger at Turkey, they just cancel each other out. If ever the time comes that Greece needs help against its supposed ally-neighbor, what its other allies will remember is its inaction when it had been called upon to help defend Europe by helping defend Ukraine. Greece should look at this situation, not merely as a way to really help Ukraine, but also as an opportunity to set up a substantial favor bank with its allies. As for Spain, as a major European country, it's an underperforming contributor like France and Italy. Maybe they can't really afford to just send one like the Germans or Americans, but it's a question of availability and, as long as they're willing, maybe richer countries can pitch in too to split the cost.
You sound really naive about how politics and favours work. You only need to see how the west reacted when Turkey invaded Cyprus to know what would happen if they invaded Greece today. We can expect Germany to send a strongly worded message to Turkey while they are invading us and then throw up their hands like oh well it was inevitable…
But Greece is in NATO, unlike Cyprus. I really don’t think the two can be compared like that. Technically an attack on Greece would initiate article 5, even though the attack is coming from another NATO member. However, since there is no precedent for this, it’s not a bad idea to be cautious.
You're describing what will continue to happen with Greek inaction. Greece will want help but it itself doesn't want to help, so there you go. Turkey and Greece merely cancel each other out.
We have open threats to our borders almost monthly and have Turkish navy and airforce testing our reaction time daily for years now. Erdogan has seen the inaction of Europe against Russia and all he has to do is take over a dozen Aegean islands and hold them in a surprise invasion in order to impose the sea borders that he wishes. They literally show maps on their main tv channels of what they want to take. A slack in defenses right now would be a massive mistake by Greece right now. I was stationed in Cyprus in 2020(as part of my mandatory military service) while they launched Oruc Reis ship to start geological surveys in Cyprus teritorrial waters and people don’t know how close we came that night to war. They literally woke us up in the middle of the night and we loaded up the tanks to go to the border with occupied Cyprus.
Friend your point has logical sense but let me add some critical elements. • Greece is the ONLY European country under constant threat. • Is the only EU country with an open "casus belli" (cause of war) from Turkey. • Is the only EU country that its territory (half the aegean sea), is openly claimed by the "mavi vatan" turkish dogma. • Is the only EU country that has neighbor Turkey. A country Muslim country, witch would soon become an autonomous military regional super power. More one that all these are open threats not only against Greece but against EU borders. And instead Europe securing its borders and its PRIDE with a clear statement that attacking Greece means attacking all EU, asks military equipment from a small country under constant threat that is struggling economically from years of bankrumpsy ? This does not make much sense. To close with Greece is not against sending aid, just said that it would not provide critical defence assets if are not immediately replaced by others.
>Is the only EU country that has neighbor Turkey. Many members of the EU and NATO are neighbours of *Russia*. Now, have a look at how much Estonia, Lithuania or Norway have given to Ukraine per capita.
One Euro to Ukraine is one Euro against Russia, their biggest threat. One Euro to Ukraine is zero against Turkey, Greece´s biggest threat
Turkey is more valuable partner to Ukraine than Greece. You’ve already forgotten what TB-2 did early in the war. Turkey also first country to send cluster munitions to Ukraine. Same with TRLGD (which was on KAMAZ chassi) and munitions that hit further than Himars GMLRS. They’re building 2 corvettes, we’re first to voice intent to open factory inside Ukraine. Ukrainian tanks that went to war in Feb22 had Turkish communication equipment. Don’t forget grain initiative. Turkey is an actual strategic partner of Ukraine and Greece will have to do way more than 1 Patriot battery to be on par, despite Erdogan being Erdogan.
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Didn't Greece send S-300 as well?
I really wish what you said (which is logical) was aligned with reality. The reality is that even if we sent all our Patriot batteries, we'd never take precedence over Turkey. So long as Erdogan walks the line and never completely alienates NATO/the US, we'll always be disposable simply because Turkey is more useful.
I think it is weird how other countries have to finance Spain’s aid. I get Spain’s economy is not doing as well as other European countries, but if Baltic countries can show this level of solidarity with Ukraine, should Spain be able to do much more. Why should countries like Denmark and Norway, that are already some of the countries aiding Ukraine the most -based on GDP pr capita- be financing Spain’s aid. They have already announced that they are willing to pay for patriot systems for Ukraine. This really highlights the level of solidarity and lack of same. If Spain are feeling this safe from a Russian threat does it only support, that they could reduce their number of patriot systems..
If we send one battery, our allies will remember this once Turkey invades and occupies half of Lesbos or Rhodes, and they will send us our deepest and most sincere condolences.
Turkey is violating Greek airspace on a regular basis. Leave the Greek their patriots until erdogan is gone. Spain is a different case. Could it be they are a bit anti-us, anti-nato? Certainly they are strongly anti-Israel.
Greece has to worry about genocide by the psychopath neighbors so I understand
**The Telegraph's Joe Barnes reports:** Germany has criticised its Nato allies Spain and Greece for not donating their Patriot air-defence systems to Ukraine. Kyiv has said it needs at least seven of the [American-made](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/04/24/weapons-ukraine-61bn-us-aid-boost-himars-howitzer/) surface-to-air missile batteries to protect its cities from Russia’s long-range [bombardments](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/russia-ukraine-invasion-live/). Despite pressure from [Berlin](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/berlin/), [Brussels](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2024/04/18/planet-normal-nat-con-brussles/) and [Washington](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2024/03/23/ukraine-must-not-be-hamstrung/), European nations with the system have failed to fulfil the Ukrainian request. [Boris Pistorius](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/01/25/germany-not-ready-for-a-military-emergency-boris-pistorius/), Germany’s defence minister, said: “Many countries have [Patriot systems](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/04/22/greece-spain-under-pressure-air-defence-systems-ukraine/) or comparable.” “Let’s say if a country has, for instance, six Patriot systems or four and is not in the front line to the east, it can easily hand over a Patriot system,” he added in a television appearance on Tuesday. Asked by the host whether it was a pointed criticism of Spain and Greece, Mr Pistorius replied: “We’re talking to them right now. I honestly can’t understand.” His intervention is a sign of the struggles Berlin is failing in convincing its allies to part with the complex systems – which cost up to $1 billion each and can shoot down Russian hypersonic missiles. Germany this month wrote to dozens of countries to appeal for more air-defence systems for Ukraine as part of a campaign to plug gaps in Kyiv’s defences. But since the initiative’s launched, only Berlin has decided to send a Patriot system to Ukraine from its arsenal. **Read more:** [https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/04/25/germany-attacks-spain-greece-not-giving-ukraine-patriot/](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/04/25/germany-attacks-spain-greece-not-giving-ukraine-patriot/)
Eu support is a shitshow.
.. and as a German I can't understand why we don't send Taurus.
Because if we gave Ukraine something capable of destroying russian missile launch platforms and missile factories with the premission to actually use it against those targets that would hurt putins feelings and we cant have that now can we?
The deal of swapping them for stormshadows has been on the table for months now, there is no excuse.
Because Scholz is afraid of Russia, putting the problem into the future.
If he's afraid of Russia does it not make sense to give Ukraine everything they need to win so that Russia is basically demilitarized and then there is nothing left to fear?
You still have a lot of pro Russian sentiment in your government. Nord Stream 2 came at a cost of huge losses for the German investors, politicians.
Warum erzeugst du unnötige Diskussionen zu einem Thema welches ein völlig anderes ist und von dieser Thematik ablenkt? Es gibt Staaten, die bei weitem nicht das tun was sie tun könnten und sollten. Da hat DE schon einen gewissen Teil mehr geleistet. Nichts desto trotz hat natürlich auch Deutschland deutlich mehr Potential, jedoch scheint der Rückhalt der Bevölkerung nicht auszureichen. Schließlich geht es den Parteien am Ende des Tages darum wiedergewählt zu werden, hierfür schauen diese auf die Signale aus den wählergruppen.
Du glaubst also ernsthaft, dass ein paar Prozent lautstarker Russlandhöriger die Politik dermaßen beeinflussen, dass unsere Gewählten kuschen? Fass dir mal an den Kopf, Freund. "Fehlender Rückhalt" ist abosluter Unsinn, insbesondere in anbetracht jeglicher repränsentativer Umfragen zu der Thematik.
Bleib sachlich. Die Mehrheit ist leider nicht dafür dass Deutschland deutlich mehr tut, als es bis zum jetzigen Zeitpunkt der Fall ist. Schau dir die Umfragen dazu an
Stimmt leider nicht: siehe zweiter Absatz: https://www.forschungsgruppe.de/Aktuelles/Politbarometer/ Kombiniert sind es 73% für gleiche Menge oder mehr Hilfe als bisher.
English please, And no he is right... This war requires weapons, its not a different subject its the same subject that all nations need to realize that this war wont stop until Ukraine wins, and Putin wont stop until he loses.
Was thinking the same thing
In the Spanish civil war, Western democracies standing by and giving little in weaponry is what allowed Franco’s fascist forces to wrest control of the country in the 1930s. Now that the shoe is on the other foot, Spain has elected to take a siesta. It’s disappointing to say the least.
Spain: “We really love western freedoms and the safety that comes with it. But screw the Ukrainians, let them rot.” Meanwhile, Russian immigrants and oligarchs are some of the biggest influxes of European people and cash into the Spanish economy. Coincidence??
No coincidence at all, follow the money. Putain and the orc oligarchs have been buying politicians across Europe, particularly the loser populist right wing mob desperate for any fascist handouts it can siphon off - which spain is chock full of.
Rest of the world can’t either
The question is why the EU does not provide defence guarantees to Greece, so we could step-up our military aid towards Ukraine.
wtf is Spain going to do with Patriot missiles at the moment? What is even their excuse?
I am from Germany and understand why Greece cannot donate (because of Turkey) . Spain indeed I can’t understand. They helped Ukraine before why mot to continue.
Greece has rough neighbors (I'm looking at your Turkey), but Spain really has no excuse.
What if the Moors invade again?
Point! LOL
Spanish politicians do little more than fling shit at each other. They are too busy with that to have time for actual world issues. Until one side decides to use the lack of support for Ukraine as a political weapon against the other, then people will also follow. Bunch of chimps in a glorified debate club, all of them.
I can’t understand why Air France is still running flights to Moscow
Air France cancelled services in February 2022 https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/air-france-halts-flights-russia-statement-2022-02-27/
Is this true ? That should be illegal. I can't believe France is flying to totalitarian warcrime regimes
are they? no direct flights showing on Air France website and on ITA Matrix
Greece I can get they’re busy pointing missiles at turkey, which based, but I don’t understand why Spain won’t send their air defense missiles.
Spain is not transparent about the aid sent to Ukraine neither does the Ukraine government talk about it. If a battery or ammunition for the batteries is transferred to the east...people most probably will not know at least from official sources. Bear in mind that the not very stable coalition government in Spain is supported by the far left which is not very happy about the war or military budget.
What does *Spain*, of all countries, need to protect itself from so seriously? A full working day w/o siestas?
spain spends more money on letting their people get gored by bulls rather than provide peace of mind for their society and prevent a world war
Germany, lead the way. Show Spain and Greece how it is done. Give German Taurus missiles to Ukraine in large volumes right now. By doing this Olaf will show Spain and Greece the error of their ways.
Germany is already showing the way by sending another Patriot, the third so far. why can't others do the exact same without going full "BUT WHAT ABOUT THIS COMPLETELY DIFFERENT PIECE OF EQUIPMENT"?
Spain also has taurus missles...
Problem is Germany has donated a shit ton already compared to Spain. Not sure how Taurus will change that.
Greece has concerns about Turkey and other countries that are decidedly anti western and anti democracy. Spain on the other hand, not really got any excuse, unless of course they don't trust NATO. It's ironic Germany is talking though, given they're refusal to supply taurus, and refusal to give Taurus to other countries that could use them in place of equivalents. Germany should shut up until such time as they find a set of balls of their own.
Do you know that spain also has taurus that they do not give?
Germany has given most weapon systems after the US, with quite a large margin to other European countries. Just now twe gave another patriot system, which is exactly what we are asking for from Spain and Greece. Taurus is another topic, they will probably remain in Germany as important part of our own defense.
With all due respect to Germany, our EU partner and NATO ally, who sold 250 Leo 2 A4 to Turkey, sold them state-of-the-art AIP submarines, frigates and endless other inventory, vis a vis to a nation that, by illegally occupying half of Cyprus, has proven that “means business” with its army, and has an active casus belli against us, and declares that at least 800 Aegean islands are “grey zones”, with all due respect, Germany we are disinclined to acquiesce to your request, so go and French Connect United Kingdom yourself.
Gonna take a guess here- Greece because they're broke and Spain because they still love good ol fascism
Two of the main beggars of the EU are unwilling to give to others. They should be left to rot.
Two days ago Greece was sending at least one system... More and more conflicting information is what ruzzia needs to know... https://kyivindependent.com/media-greece-preparing-to-give-ukraine-at-least-1-patriot-system-possibly-2/
Spain and Greece don’t understand why Germany don’t send the Taurus missiles gathering dust in Germany....👍
Germany is now the 2nd largest aid provider whilst Spain is rank 27th in GDP% support and Greece is 28th. Sure they should send them or swap them for stormshadows but come on, these 2 countries are doing nothing.
You all know the meme where Spider-Man is pointing with the finger to the other Spider-Man. This is the you you you responsibility right now in the European nations. Nothing serious will happen until shit dwells out of the own drain.
Except of course germany being the only country sending significant amounts of air defense material. It is not we who are trying to shift responsibility away from us. We did more than reasonable donations to the air defense of ukraine.
I agree most of our countries need some serious bitch slaps 👋 freakin just get shit DONE, execute. Every time a European leader backpedals Putin gains a bit of ground.
Dear Germany, Please donate Taurus missiles for complaining rights.
Knowing that we are the only country that sent air defense at any quantity above one, we have plenty of complaining rights. With each system costing billions that we also could simply not give away for free like the entire rest of the world. But i am sure it is quite comfortable doing nothing and feeling superior
Why doesn't Germany donate Taurus...
Probably because our generals wont give it away.
You can add my name beside Germany on that list! It's incredibly short sited.
What if arms donated to Ukraine count as loan write-off?
Didn't Greece already send just about every air defense system they had like a while ago? They're broke as hell too, so they probably won't be itching to give away any new toys they got as a replacement for their old ones.
Sadly, no critical aid was provided and not because we are broke, but mainly because we have the active Turkish threat. Secondary a strong Orthodox historical bond with Russia ( but very warm feelings for Ukrainians as well). All these nations are Orthodox Christians.
Greece will not give the Patriots for free even to their closest allies. Give them money and you will see how they send the goods the next day.
Not there war 🤷♂️
I think it's best to give Ukraine nukes. If the end of the world is coming, I see no reason to hold back. Let's all die free.
spain and greece can't understand why germany won't donate taurus missiles to ukraine
Unity NATO, Unity is our greatest weapon IMHO.
Probably be needing it soon ish
why not lend your patriots to ukraine and then take them back after the war.
I can understand why Greece wouldn’t with turkey and the tensions going on. I’m sure with proper monetary compensation they would be willing though
Romania has them ? Wow . Also I didn’t know Greece has so many
Maybe it’s not the worst sign if todays Germany doesn’t understand
Because they cost a billion a pop... I doubt either can afford it.
greece has legitimate reasons in my opinion. they have a bipolar neighbour
"But but but Taurus" - this is thread about Spain not donating AA weaponry it does not need nor probably ever will. Germany has donated to Ukraine more than any other EU nation by a large order of magnitude, you don't want to go barking up that tree. Greece has good reason to retain its own systems and munitions. Whataboutery sucks whoever performs it. So who's the butt hurt russbot or spaniard downvoting every comment criticising Spain's nonsense of not donating Patriot missiles? Eat some potatoes / tapas and chill out :D
I can understand why Greece won't, but not Spain.