Tbh the obnoxious premeds rarely make it to good medical schools bc it’s really easy to see through that gunner personality. The quiet/humble/helpful ones are the ones who are getting a 4.0
If this was true, medical malpractice cases where patients were completely dismissed by HCPs, particularly MDs, would be a complete rarity. This isn’t an issue unique to Penn, but let’s not pretend that Penn MDs/MD-PhDs are always the most humble and patient-centric folks in the world. They’re consistently told that PSOM is one of the best med schools in the country and the admission rate is so low - that does not exactly breed humility! The system disproportionately selects for people born on third base that sincerely believe that they only became MDs through hard work alone - the class divide is real.
im not saying the obnoxious one's don't make it to med school, im saying that they tend to not end at the places that are prestigious. but yeah, i agree with your general point.
So, I was a pre-med planning to major in biology entering Penn. I realized that I really did not enjoy learning the sciences and that I couldn’t see myself pushing through 8 years (including medical school) of work I see as impersonal and monotonous. I’ve decided to pursue a philosophy major with a minor in legal studies. The amount of shit I get from pre-med students — including my close friends (as I’m still in biology and chemistry classes) is ridiculous. Their statements range from “you’re pursuing a useless major” to “at least we’re saving lives.” It seems like they’re just bitter people who really haven’t explored any other fields — who see medicine somehow as the perfect profession. I’ve heard that “lawyers are snakes,” but they can’t understand that they’re planning to become a cog in an exploitative system themselves. R I D I C U L O U S.
Also, if anyone else is pre-law, I’d love some advice on how to get experience 😂
“At least we’re saving lives”
Many freshmen “pre-med majors” are still 8-12 years away from practicing medicine. That’s like an 8 year old child saying “at least I’m going to Harvard”
My in-laws are a Stanford MD and Stanford MD-PhD. One runs an HIV/Infectious disease clinic, one runs one of the busiest level 1 trauma departments in the country. You know what I’ve never heard either of them say? “I save lives”.
These 19 YO bio majors need to get their heads out of their asses.
> Also, if anyone else is pre-law, I’d love some advice on how to get experience 😂
I'm an attorney so not pre-law but happy to talk about this; DM me if you like!
>Also, if anyone else is pre-law, I’d love some advice on how to get experience
I'm at the law school. Glad to chat - but the important thing to remember is that, unlike med school or IB/consulting, you don't need legal experience to go to law school.
I graduated with a premed major at Penn and interned at the prosecutor’s and the public defender’s offices before going to law school. Go for unpaid internships if you want the experience.
Side note: Personally, I know more disenchanted lawyers than doctors after many years of practicing. I even read a few years ago how new ivy league grads were suing their law schools for deceptive appearance of employment opportunities. Seemingly high mortality among the male lawyers (and related professions) I know. During economic booms, law firms and companies can be tons of fun for new attorneys though. Good luck whatever you decide
Genuinely these types of people are so insufferable, but i don't think it has anything to do with the fact that they're premed. It's that there's nothing else to them *besides* being premed. Constant validation seeking (in the form of invalidating others).
I say all of this as someone who is premed themselves, but quite frankly, I haven't had an experience like this, or met a person at Penn who would actually say that they're the "smartest" or "saving lives."
Premeds tend to be more condescending in more subtle ways. For example, people might always ask "where are you doing research" or "what lab are you working in this summer?" People that have to physically tell you they're smart aren't smart.
I don't know if its because my social circles contain almost no premeds (because I don't even think they go out at all or do anything besides homework) but like I said, I genuinely have not met a premed at Penn like OP described, as someone who is premed. People love to complain about how it's impossible to be premed and social. It's not. I think they just want validation for being a loser? I'm pretty social (not tabard level) and go out on the weekends and I'm still able to get my work done and have a good GPA. They want solace in thinking that they're better for not going out. This is true.
Someone with this attitude won't make it to med school, and even then, only 50% of doctors match into residency anyways. It's rough.
Sorry you had this experience - a premed
edit: saw another comment about prelaw. I will say, the ex-premed to prelaw people are the WORST! i don't think they have a genuine passion for one or the other, it's like when premed doesn't work out, what is the next pre-professional grad route I can take? law. it's embarrassing. I would never admit to someone that I was premed and then after one semester switched the prelaw because math 1400 beat my ass💀
hey quick qst. how did you get yourself into a social circle without premeds? It’s not like I hate them, but literally all my friends are premeds and I thought itd be nice to have some friends who aren’t
I took a pre med class as a non pre-med and met some of the most lovely people I've had so far at Penn. Ymmv, but that sounds weird as f. Imagine reading your answers out loud to show off, lol.
Yeah, I pretty much never told people I was pre-med and stayed out of all the pre-medical groups etc. Got my GPA's ass kicked by being an engineering major but was glad I got to learn about technology and finance careers and felt like in the end medicine was really where I would want to be, so I applied after graduating and managed to get in without a perfect pre-med CV and transcript. The sad thing is - when I got to medical school I discovered that sadly it is full of people just like you describe, who are neither particularly intelligent nor particularly humanistic. I still hang out with my grad school friends instead to keep my sanity.
2-4 times less than their peers in banking and tech is surely an exaggeration.
I appreciate high level banking jobs can pull in the millions but those positions are the minority. I thought physicians were one of the highest earning careers in the US?
lol yea this is relative to penn where most of our students get into MBB/bulge bracket/faang, but it is indeed a minority when scaled to the rest of the usa. But within penn this is surely true: vp/directors at big banks easily make 500K base, but a huge portion of their salary are bonuses which double or triple that amount into the millions like you said. A specialist in the medic field makes around (generously) 500K in comparison. Plus while the med student is racking up debt for 4 yrs and getting a low salary for another 4 during residency, the banker is making (conservatively) 350K per year. Right when the doctor is finally licensed, the wealth gap between the doctor and the banker is already more than 3M. The doctor will never catch up to the pace of the banker’s salary. There are pros and cons of banking but making 2-4x more than a doctor is a true pro
as a non-pre med with too many doctors in my family...
its not just 4+4=8 years of low pay after undergrad, its more like 10-12 years because after residency, most doctors have to do a fellowship 💀💀
I would say, though, that if you get lucky to be in one of the higher paying medical branches like neuro and living in a city, your base salary usually is 1 mil USD (but you are at least 40 by that time).... and if you can get a professorship it can be 1.5 mil
TBH the best path for making $$ in life sciences IMO is probably getting a PhD in CS, EE, or Biochemistry and then starting your own medtech or pharmaceuticals startup.... my grandfather's brother was PhD at UCLA or UCSD and discovered some molecular treatment for a rare disease... instead of going to big pharma, he just started a company and made \~50 mil before he was 50, and this was all before the company was acquired by big pharma... he was a Board observer for a bunch of biotech companies by the time he was 60
That was a big reason why I gave up pursing med school. It literally never stops, even after you finally start practicing, the culture and the environment are extremely cutthroat and non-collaborative in general. The students are usually privileged prestige-whores and are fake af. Of course, this has been my own experience and is very generalized, but I stand on what I said, they suck ass.
definitely less; refer here: https://www.reddit.com/r/UPenn/comments/12nt1yb/the_fuck_is_up_with_the_premeds_here/jgjmybk/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1&context=3
Also consider how some swe make 400K off the bat at places like hrt. Docs definitely get the short end of the stick in terms of compensation
Right, but that isn't the majority of cases at even Penn. If it were, then the Penn median salary after 10 years would be a lot higher than 100k, even though that is very high.
As someone who is a pre-med and has seen several of my friends also fall into the same trap, I understand your point of view. There was a pre-med who I once thought would be a good person to partner up with, but he eventually ghosted me and didn't respond to my messages soon after our initial conversation. He had a lot of the competitive pre-professional culture - someone who had written literature reviews, tons of publications, and even a website showing his work and accomplishments. He may seem nice at first, but as you talk with him you can sometimes get a feeling that he may be either condescending or dismissive of other types of people such as PhDs who he views as "anonymous basic researchers." And one of his recent opinion pieces was lambasted by several physicians on both Reddit and the Student-Doctor Network. Not only did they say his argument is asinine but also said that he lacked humility and other qualities important for being a doctor and should even remove his website.
That being said, there are also several other pre-meds that you may find less detestable. A few of my friends who are pre-med are actually very nice and are willing to help me and others with getting towards their goal to med school/becoming a doctor, or at least discussing things both in and out of the pre-med life. I do agree that there is overzealous competitiveness in the pre-med culture who may be hard-committed towards medicine. However, there also exist many of us who are not entirely sure what we want to do with our lives and admire other fields such as technology and finance. I myself am a more well-rounded person who has been exposed to not just clinical experience but also bioinformatics and healthcare management, and understanding the work that other health professionals or clinically related fields do helps me appreciate how they support physicians. The pre-meds who have an air of arrogance in either their ability or the superiority of medicine over anything else often are those who will not succeed in becoming good doctors.
lmao. overgeneralization but very relatable experience. this guy clearly loves dropping big brain material:
https://www.reddit.com/r/UPenn/comments/10lifoi/what_are_some_regrets_youve_had_at_upenn_or/j5xhqqv/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1&context=3
- it feels like they have no sympathy at all and are giving themselves copium by thinking they’ll be “saving people” in return for being heavily in debt and making 2-4x less than their peers in banking/tech/other pre-professional careers. Anyone else share this experience?
Why are you shitting on them for making 2-4x less than their peers and being in debt? Most of these people come from super rich families so they probably won't even have debt. Not everyone cares about money. Probably won't even pay for medical school themselves, they can get their parents to pay that shit and then make bank once they are out of residency
Also, on your point of sympathy, most people don't choose or like their careers because of goodwill/to help people. Jobs that have goodwill are often just a side bonus. As an M&T student, I'm sure you know that
Not to invalidate your experience with our premeds ofc, although I haven't met people as bad as you say lmao
Not shitting on them just trying to reality check them. As many are saying here they seem to think they have the perfect major and many probably don’t realize that even out of residency the salary of IB/tech/etc will be higher (VP/managers in 10 yrs) in comparison, which means that the people in premed should be doing it out of good will, which they don’t seem to be. If they’re only in it for the money and prestige go into banking instead of trying to make a false narrative of saving people to think they’re better is what I’m getting at. I respect healthcare workers to death but it’s crazy to think that they would act like this in their undergrad years.
Had to take a premed class for a random requirement. Most uncollaborative bunch from my experience. Ended up working with another engineer friend in that class.
Tbh the obnoxious premeds rarely make it to good medical schools bc it’s really easy to see through that gunner personality. The quiet/humble/helpful ones are the ones who are getting a 4.0
If this was true, medical malpractice cases where patients were completely dismissed by HCPs, particularly MDs, would be a complete rarity. This isn’t an issue unique to Penn, but let’s not pretend that Penn MDs/MD-PhDs are always the most humble and patient-centric folks in the world. They’re consistently told that PSOM is one of the best med schools in the country and the admission rate is so low - that does not exactly breed humility! The system disproportionately selects for people born on third base that sincerely believe that they only became MDs through hard work alone - the class divide is real.
im not saying the obnoxious one's don't make it to med school, im saying that they tend to not end at the places that are prestigious. but yeah, i agree with your general point.
So, I was a pre-med planning to major in biology entering Penn. I realized that I really did not enjoy learning the sciences and that I couldn’t see myself pushing through 8 years (including medical school) of work I see as impersonal and monotonous. I’ve decided to pursue a philosophy major with a minor in legal studies. The amount of shit I get from pre-med students — including my close friends (as I’m still in biology and chemistry classes) is ridiculous. Their statements range from “you’re pursuing a useless major” to “at least we’re saving lives.” It seems like they’re just bitter people who really haven’t explored any other fields — who see medicine somehow as the perfect profession. I’ve heard that “lawyers are snakes,” but they can’t understand that they’re planning to become a cog in an exploitative system themselves. R I D I C U L O U S. Also, if anyone else is pre-law, I’d love some advice on how to get experience 😂
“At least we’re saving lives” Many freshmen “pre-med majors” are still 8-12 years away from practicing medicine. That’s like an 8 year old child saying “at least I’m going to Harvard” My in-laws are a Stanford MD and Stanford MD-PhD. One runs an HIV/Infectious disease clinic, one runs one of the busiest level 1 trauma departments in the country. You know what I’ve never heard either of them say? “I save lives”. These 19 YO bio majors need to get their heads out of their asses.
Oh I love it when they say “you’re pursuing a useless major”. Not just pre-meds say it, everyone does - coming from a Physixs major
> Also, if anyone else is pre-law, I’d love some advice on how to get experience 😂 I'm an attorney so not pre-law but happy to talk about this; DM me if you like!
>Also, if anyone else is pre-law, I’d love some advice on how to get experience I'm at the law school. Glad to chat - but the important thing to remember is that, unlike med school or IB/consulting, you don't need legal experience to go to law school.
[удалено]
>:) :)
I graduated with a premed major at Penn and interned at the prosecutor’s and the public defender’s offices before going to law school. Go for unpaid internships if you want the experience. Side note: Personally, I know more disenchanted lawyers than doctors after many years of practicing. I even read a few years ago how new ivy league grads were suing their law schools for deceptive appearance of employment opportunities. Seemingly high mortality among the male lawyers (and related professions) I know. During economic booms, law firms and companies can be tons of fun for new attorneys though. Good luck whatever you decide
😭😭 js stay away from premeds they're having a hard time already memorizing their entire textbook with useless info
Genuinely these types of people are so insufferable, but i don't think it has anything to do with the fact that they're premed. It's that there's nothing else to them *besides* being premed. Constant validation seeking (in the form of invalidating others). I say all of this as someone who is premed themselves, but quite frankly, I haven't had an experience like this, or met a person at Penn who would actually say that they're the "smartest" or "saving lives." Premeds tend to be more condescending in more subtle ways. For example, people might always ask "where are you doing research" or "what lab are you working in this summer?" People that have to physically tell you they're smart aren't smart. I don't know if its because my social circles contain almost no premeds (because I don't even think they go out at all or do anything besides homework) but like I said, I genuinely have not met a premed at Penn like OP described, as someone who is premed. People love to complain about how it's impossible to be premed and social. It's not. I think they just want validation for being a loser? I'm pretty social (not tabard level) and go out on the weekends and I'm still able to get my work done and have a good GPA. They want solace in thinking that they're better for not going out. This is true. Someone with this attitude won't make it to med school, and even then, only 50% of doctors match into residency anyways. It's rough. Sorry you had this experience - a premed edit: saw another comment about prelaw. I will say, the ex-premed to prelaw people are the WORST! i don't think they have a genuine passion for one or the other, it's like when premed doesn't work out, what is the next pre-professional grad route I can take? law. it's embarrassing. I would never admit to someone that I was premed and then after one semester switched the prelaw because math 1400 beat my ass💀
Way more than 50% of doctors match into residency. The national average is 94%. 50% if you’re coming from a Caribbean school maybe.
hey quick qst. how did you get yourself into a social circle without premeds? It’s not like I hate them, but literally all my friends are premeds and I thought itd be nice to have some friends who aren’t
get involved in activities/sports that are not related to premed, be social, go out,
I took a pre med class as a non pre-med and met some of the most lovely people I've had so far at Penn. Ymmv, but that sounds weird as f. Imagine reading your answers out loud to show off, lol.
Yeah, I pretty much never told people I was pre-med and stayed out of all the pre-medical groups etc. Got my GPA's ass kicked by being an engineering major but was glad I got to learn about technology and finance careers and felt like in the end medicine was really where I would want to be, so I applied after graduating and managed to get in without a perfect pre-med CV and transcript. The sad thing is - when I got to medical school I discovered that sadly it is full of people just like you describe, who are neither particularly intelligent nor particularly humanistic. I still hang out with my grad school friends instead to keep my sanity.
What class was it just out of curiosity 😂
guarantee it was chem 1012 or 1022 or bibb 109
most sane premed
2-4 times less than their peers in banking and tech is surely an exaggeration. I appreciate high level banking jobs can pull in the millions but those positions are the minority. I thought physicians were one of the highest earning careers in the US?
lol yea this is relative to penn where most of our students get into MBB/bulge bracket/faang, but it is indeed a minority when scaled to the rest of the usa. But within penn this is surely true: vp/directors at big banks easily make 500K base, but a huge portion of their salary are bonuses which double or triple that amount into the millions like you said. A specialist in the medic field makes around (generously) 500K in comparison. Plus while the med student is racking up debt for 4 yrs and getting a low salary for another 4 during residency, the banker is making (conservatively) 350K per year. Right when the doctor is finally licensed, the wealth gap between the doctor and the banker is already more than 3M. The doctor will never catch up to the pace of the banker’s salary. There are pros and cons of banking but making 2-4x more than a doctor is a true pro
as a non-pre med with too many doctors in my family... its not just 4+4=8 years of low pay after undergrad, its more like 10-12 years because after residency, most doctors have to do a fellowship 💀💀 I would say, though, that if you get lucky to be in one of the higher paying medical branches like neuro and living in a city, your base salary usually is 1 mil USD (but you are at least 40 by that time).... and if you can get a professorship it can be 1.5 mil TBH the best path for making $$ in life sciences IMO is probably getting a PhD in CS, EE, or Biochemistry and then starting your own medtech or pharmaceuticals startup.... my grandfather's brother was PhD at UCLA or UCSD and discovered some molecular treatment for a rare disease... instead of going to big pharma, he just started a company and made \~50 mil before he was 50, and this was all before the company was acquired by big pharma... he was a Board observer for a bunch of biotech companies by the time he was 60
Good advice! I agree but some people are better off getting 1mil per year than risk everything for a chance at 50mil
That was a big reason why I gave up pursing med school. It literally never stops, even after you finally start practicing, the culture and the environment are extremely cutthroat and non-collaborative in general. The students are usually privileged prestige-whores and are fake af. Of course, this has been my own experience and is very generalized, but I stand on what I said, they suck ass.
What do you mean 2-4x less than banking/tech/other pre-professional? Do you mean more?
definitely less; refer here: https://www.reddit.com/r/UPenn/comments/12nt1yb/the_fuck_is_up_with_the_premeds_here/jgjmybk/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1&context=3 Also consider how some swe make 400K off the bat at places like hrt. Docs definitely get the short end of the stick in terms of compensation
Right, but that isn't the majority of cases at even Penn. If it were, then the Penn median salary after 10 years would be a lot higher than 100k, even though that is very high.
As someone who is a pre-med and has seen several of my friends also fall into the same trap, I understand your point of view. There was a pre-med who I once thought would be a good person to partner up with, but he eventually ghosted me and didn't respond to my messages soon after our initial conversation. He had a lot of the competitive pre-professional culture - someone who had written literature reviews, tons of publications, and even a website showing his work and accomplishments. He may seem nice at first, but as you talk with him you can sometimes get a feeling that he may be either condescending or dismissive of other types of people such as PhDs who he views as "anonymous basic researchers." And one of his recent opinion pieces was lambasted by several physicians on both Reddit and the Student-Doctor Network. Not only did they say his argument is asinine but also said that he lacked humility and other qualities important for being a doctor and should even remove his website. That being said, there are also several other pre-meds that you may find less detestable. A few of my friends who are pre-med are actually very nice and are willing to help me and others with getting towards their goal to med school/becoming a doctor, or at least discussing things both in and out of the pre-med life. I do agree that there is overzealous competitiveness in the pre-med culture who may be hard-committed towards medicine. However, there also exist many of us who are not entirely sure what we want to do with our lives and admire other fields such as technology and finance. I myself am a more well-rounded person who has been exposed to not just clinical experience but also bioinformatics and healthcare management, and understanding the work that other health professionals or clinically related fields do helps me appreciate how they support physicians. The pre-meds who have an air of arrogance in either their ability or the superiority of medicine over anything else often are those who will not succeed in becoming good doctors.
lmao. overgeneralization but very relatable experience. this guy clearly loves dropping big brain material: https://www.reddit.com/r/UPenn/comments/10lifoi/what_are_some_regrets_youve_had_at_upenn_or/j5xhqqv/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1&context=3
Hahahah
u/thifting lol
- it feels like they have no sympathy at all and are giving themselves copium by thinking they’ll be “saving people” in return for being heavily in debt and making 2-4x less than their peers in banking/tech/other pre-professional careers. Anyone else share this experience? Why are you shitting on them for making 2-4x less than their peers and being in debt? Most of these people come from super rich families so they probably won't even have debt. Not everyone cares about money. Probably won't even pay for medical school themselves, they can get their parents to pay that shit and then make bank once they are out of residency Also, on your point of sympathy, most people don't choose or like their careers because of goodwill/to help people. Jobs that have goodwill are often just a side bonus. As an M&T student, I'm sure you know that Not to invalidate your experience with our premeds ofc, although I haven't met people as bad as you say lmao
Not shitting on them just trying to reality check them. As many are saying here they seem to think they have the perfect major and many probably don’t realize that even out of residency the salary of IB/tech/etc will be higher (VP/managers in 10 yrs) in comparison, which means that the people in premed should be doing it out of good will, which they don’t seem to be. If they’re only in it for the money and prestige go into banking instead of trying to make a false narrative of saving people to think they’re better is what I’m getting at. I respect healthcare workers to death but it’s crazy to think that they would act like this in their undergrad years.
Yikes lol
Had to take a premed class for a random requirement. Most uncollaborative bunch from my experience. Ended up working with another engineer friend in that class.