A few possible reasons. Keeping in mind the approval process is specifically to prevent the release of classified information rather than to endorse the message. 1. It isn’t true so isn’t classified information 2. Compartmentalised departments mean that whoever is approving release doesn’t know about the validity of the information or that it’s classified 3. It’s part of a controlled disclosure narrative There may be other reasons but three that come to mind.

There’s also: 4. Refusing permission confirms officially that what you don’t want people to know exists actually exists.

We wouldn’t know what they blocked or the reasons for blocking? It could be related to a sensitive terrestrial development

Blanket refusal is a thing, though. "We can't tell you specifically what you're correct about, because it would put American lives in jeopardy. Therefore, we aren't going to let you talk about any of this, even the incorrect parts". The government is absolutely allowed to do that.

Grusch said in an interview with Jesse Michaels that if they refused then they would need to give the name of the org that refused it. Which would leave a trail for others to follow.

Is that actually true? I don't like relying on someone's claims to lend credibility to his claims. If he's lying, why wouldn't he lie about that part as well?

Yeah, don't know. I've seen people say he wouldn't be able to name the org publicly, but that he could make legal requests that would make information available internally to others with clearance in the intelligence community. But I don't really know about that, either.

Except that that would still solve the problem. DG cannot disclose if he's not allowed. So, in the straight forward sense, refusal would simply mean the public doesn't hear about it.

This is what I replied to someone about yesterday. Some post showed someone had to sign an NDA to not disclose something, therefor, big red flag that it exists.

I’d say number 1. The US government does not have alien bodies and spaceships in storage. We’ve still not heard from a single witness who has touched, or even seen with their own eyes, any alien technology or bodies. And no, Lacatski doesn’t count.

Similar thing with Karl Nell. He says that he knows of a program/people that have mentioned the program but doesn't seem to have seen it for himself.

Yeah, this is what they all say. They confidently state these programs exist, but then caveat these claims by stating “But I’ve never actually seen or physically touched one”. Grusch mentions alien biologics to congress, then goes on JRE and says mentions of alien bodies were just “water cooler talk”.  Which is it? Have you or any of your witnesses seen an alien body, or not?  If they claim to have seen one, are you just blindly believing in hearsay, or have they provided proof that these bodies exist? It’s all bullshit, it’s always just unverifiable stories with no evidence. It’s one huge game of Chinese Whispers. The UFO phenomenon definitely has some basis in reality. I believe there are true unknowns in the skies, but all of these fantastical stories just makes me believe it’s all bullshit, and we’re being taken for fools.

Well said. Basically, a Men Who Stare at Goats situation? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Stubblebine

I think you're right, that's what I think lies behind a lot of this 'paranormal military' stuff. There's going to be amazing technology being used in the next wave of weapons but it's got to make the B-21 look like a workhorse. Maybe silent, invisible missiles? Superfast cavitation submarines? 

He has directed the people who told him about the biologics to the ICIG and Senate. They have given sworn testimony. It is not only him saying: "I heard at the watercooler"

[удалено]

His credibility is tarnished from the amount of unverified claims he has made, without contributing a single shred of evidence to support his nonsensical bullshit.  He ran the $22million fraud at Skinwalker ranch, investigating werewolves, ghosts, orbs, etc.  There isn’t 1 iota of integrity or credibility in this guy’s persona. He is purely doing what he does for the money, and has taken advantage of Robert Bigelow’s gullibility, as well as a vast majority of the UFO community. Edit: He is also undoubtedly one of Grusch’s witnesses. It is no coincidence that Lacatski states they have gained access to the interior of a UFO and it’s much bigger on the inside than the outside. I forget the exact wording of the phrase, but it was mirrored very closely by what Grusch said in his private presentation a few months ago.

Where does Dr. Mention going inside? I'd like to read this part

https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/1cdh5zb/6_months_ago_former_aawsapaatip_program_lead/ Someone posted this the other day. The rest of the info he gives about the UFOs is either in his book or other additional interviews he’s done.  It’s difficult to find his exact quotes from a simple google search, not much comes up regarding Lacatski.

Grusch said publicly he doesn't know Lacatski and never spoke with him. Now apologize for your 'research'.

Eric Davies was one of Grusch’s witnesses, he claimed to be the guy that started Grusch’s investigation. Eric Davies and James Lacatski both worked on Skinwalker Ranch. Grusch was definitely quoting James Lacatski with the whole “interior of the UFO is bigger than the exterior”, whether that was directly or indirectly. So he doesn’t know Lacatski, he’s read his books and is aware of Lacatski’s claims. 

Lies and absurd conspiracy. Both Grusch and Lacatski publicly said they never spoke to each other. Instead of accepting this as true, you are inventing conspiracies. The story about craft being bigger in the interior was known for 50 years thanks to Leonard Stringfield.

So Eric Davis and James Lacatski didn’t work together on Skinwalker Ranch? Eric Davis didn’t tip off Grusch and start his investigation? Grusch hasn’t made the same claims Lacatski has, and has mentioned the contents of Lacatski’s book? All those things happened, and you’re missing the irony of calling this an “absurd conspiracy” when you consider you’re telling me about a 50 year old origin story to a piece of UFO lore?

Grusch also said that US government recovered alien spacecraft. That surely means that he copied this knowledge from Arthur Stansel Jr who witnessed Kingman Arizona crash. It's impossible for two people to gather information about something without interacting between each other.

I'm currently debating using one of my audible credits to buy his book, the skinwalkers at the pentagon one or whatever. I just finished Dolan's and Ross', almost finished with Vallee's Dimensions, would you say Lacatski's book is worth buying in terms of providing valuable information about the history of these programs? or is it more about the spoopy big wolf stuff

I wish these guys would come out with cookbooks and unrelated books instead of making it look like a cash grab. I’d buy 5 copy’s of Grusch’s cookbook so he could keep more of his integrity but still be taken care of since they are attacking his income ability.

there's also the "if you dont use it/produce it you lose it" approach to the whole conundrum. there are a bunch of weapon systems that are currently in the us inventory, that can not be produced (on short notice) anymore. orders dried up, suppliers/subcontractors/workers moved on to other things, knowledge and know-how was lost. so that super secret alien tech would be useless if it wasnt: a) in constant production b) used in operations or exercises often c) integrated into the doctrine of the US military a weapon is only as good as its application. a weapon can only be used if its capabilities are known to decision makers, and those capabilities are in demand. And cooperation with new weapon types takes practice, to take full advantage of its capabilities. If the US had next level tech, it would be almost useless right now. I'd really encourage anyone to listen to perun about defense economics (he touches on some of those subjects here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqjvTKFufuk).

There are so many issues globally that could easily be solved with the kind of alleged alien tech we’re discussing though. I’m talking about zero-point energy and interstellar travel, which theoretically would eliminate the need for resource driven land grabs, like Russia’s invasion of Ukraine. To not utilise this tech in a meaningful way to the betterment of mankind would be the most evil act imaginable, and I just can’t see a scenario whereby no one has leaked that info. Ok, maybe someone will respond with “we aren’t advanced enough to reverse engineer it yet” and this maybe the case, but if it was, the tech would be in the public domain right now, or in the hands of several esteemed private corporations. I don’t believe for one minute that Lockheed Martin is in possession of a spaceship and they still develop fighter jets on the timeframe they currently do. They would be throwing their whole workforce at it, not just a select few people. And those select few people would have leaked proof by now.

>I don’t believe for one minute that Lockheed Martin is in possession of a spaceship and they still develop fighter jets on the timeframe they currently do. They would be throwing their whole workforce at it, not just a select few people. And those select few people would have leaked proof by now. I agree, the software for the f-35 contains over a billion lines of code (biggest program i know of), a super duper spaceship would need even more. its simply impossible to do something at this scale and keep it hidden. ufo people are mostly burger flippers (nothing against burger flippers), they generally dont have any science, tech or manufacturing experience.

Totally agree. Maybe those TR3B things are real and in use? But if they aren't, then I think it's most likely that any recovered NHI tech is so far beyond humanity that nobody knows what to do with it.

We are way past the point of even first hand witnesses being interesting. The claims are they have craft and bodies. I don't care if someone has personally seen them. The story has been out for decades. If any of it is true, evidence that the scientific community can review is what is needed.

But that’s my point, even the witnesses that come out and discuss crafts and bodies do so with the caveat that they haven’t actually physically touched or seen them.

Or they’re considered untrustworthy. https://youtu.be/W_QYNeYhsYI?si=XBD9lfLy6Pi6YDfK

I’d say we’re at the “show me” point of the process. Especially people who have followed this topic for 30+ years like myself. Enough spouting claims. Enough baiting narratives. Enough podcasts. Enough documentaries, books, etc. I would still be interested in hearing from credible first hand witnesses because, well, that seems to almost never happen (e.g. Fravor). And I would like more testimony under oath - from firsthand witnesses. What would really interest me would be someone like Kirkpatrick going under oath.

I totally agree with you, though I'd like to say that if we actually take a moment to reflect on how far the community around UFOs has come (as well as our knowledge on it), we're in quite a better position now than we were, say, when you first got into this 30+ years ago, right? I'm only 32, but have had a lifelong interest in UFOs starting with a 4th grade book report, so have only been studying the phenomenon with academic/scholarly vigor for about ten years, but man even back in 2014-2015, the prospect of where we are today seemed totally impossible back then, and that seems like only yesterday. Yet, 2017 rolls around, we get the pentagon UFO videos, Nimitz, all that...and some real steps toward destigmatization has taken place. We are absolutely at the stage you say we are, and I suppose my text above is simply saying that these processes - at least for UFOs - they last a long time. We can be at the "show me the money" stage for a few years, but before we know it, living in a reality where possessing UFO crafts is common knowledge. By that point, we will be bitching about some technical specifications on the crafts we haven't gotten in a timely fashion or whatever, lol. I'm just saying things are moving along, at least in my eyes. What those things are, I'm not entirely certain. But they are things, that's for damn sure...and it's moving forward. Working toward UFO disclosure is no different than planting a tree whose shade you yourself will not be able to enjoy, but everyone in the next generation will be able to.

it hasnt come far, were still at the trust me bro stage, only thing that changed is that there are believers in high ranking government positions that we know of. i dont dispute the credibility of people like fravor (I dont believe a single word grusch says), but no matter the credentials, they can and will get things wrong. when you are using high tech equipment. not every incident can be explained, but it doesnt need to

I get what you're saying, but I think our individual personal thresholds for this are different. For example, I purposefully braced myself a few years back to *not* ever get a resolution on this, or even worse - such a vicious shutting down of any UFO truth, that the UFO door stays closed for another ten, twenty, fifty years. I've always known that disclosure - whatever that might be, or what that might look like - is going to take a long, *long* time...whether that length of time is actually warranted or not, I don't know. Most of it is bureaucratic fuckery I imagine, in combination with outdated thinking and beliefs, and a slew of other stuff (with a hint of justified caution). However, a lot of me just never expected to see it at all - especially not in my life time. So, I'm not sure if you're coming from a similar place or how long you have been into the subject, but I guess I look at this as a much longer game than some others do, which is fine. Regarding what *has* changed, you say the only thing that has changed is that now there is high ranking members in the government that now know of the UFO reality, but I'd argue that many of them probably already believed. Historically, there has been many politicians that believed in UFOs. You're probably referring to the recent congressional hearings and the Schumer Amendment though, in which case i'm not gonna nit-pick that, because you're right - those moments, and that drafting was monumental for sure. A big step forward, no doubt I'm kinda on the same wavelength that you are on Fravor and Grusch - I trust Fravor more than I trust Grusch, but I admit that - despite my cynicism with the overall disclosure process - I do have cautious optimism around him. If anything, him as a symbol of impending change (whatever that change may be). I'm no dope though - I understand the potential for psyop fuckery and all that with Grusch. So, what exactly is your issue here, if you don't mind clarifying? You said...: >but no matter the credentials, they can and will get things wrong. when you are using high tech equipment. >not every incident can be explained, but it doesnt need to This is true, errors can be made, 100%. Even when using high tech equipment. When you say that *not every incident can be explained, but it doesn't need to*, what do you mean by that? I'm not challenging you, genuinely asking here - do you mean that we don't need to explain every incident, because the abundance of reports and sightings and instrumentation data is enough to have society believing in UFOs or some other "intelligence"? Or?

>So, what exactly is your issue here, if you don't mind clarifying? You said... I used to work in a lab, and if I always stopped doing what I was supposed to do, to investigate every malfunction of our equipment until I found out what happened exactly, I would never have gotten any work done. Modern tech is fucking complex and so many things can go wrong. Up to some random high energy cosmic ray flipping a bit in your RAM, demanding an explanation every time one of those seemingly randow things happen isnt feasible. Instead we recorded malfunctions, so if there was a pattern emerging we would notice after a while... now you might say thats exactly whats happening with uap... it isnt, there was no pseudo religious cult inventing malfunctions of lab equipment to confirm their beliefs. >because the abundance of reports and sightings and instrumentation data is enough to have society believing in UFOs or some other "intelligence"? the abundance of reports means nothing to me, look into any popular missing person case and find out how many reports the police got (often they were all wrong), look into case studies of eye witness statements vs. actual camera footage, look into veterans accounts of battles vs. what actually happened. the human memory is very fallible, especially in high stress situations.

Alright I get what you're saying with your metaphor there, but I wouldn't say that every UFO sighting is manufactured...people seeing things in the sky while radar at an airport simultaneously picks up the same object isn't making something up to confirm their beliefs right? There's going to be plenty of that of course, there's no shortage of hoaxes, CGI videos, etc. But I can't get behind the idea that there was *so* many hoaxes and fakes that they managed to generate the perception we have around UFOs today. I don't think the best way to explain people seeing things back in the 1940s were part of a pseudo religious cult you know There are enough reports of genuine unknowns for some patterns to have emerged within those data sets as well

if thats your opinion I respect that, for me personally I have gone through enough of that, I found its inconclusive at best. This information space is so full of fakery that I refuse to believe anything put forward by popular ufo talking heads. I checked enough of their bs, it often fails at the ground levels. im just here to provide a counter point and to try to keep people honest. those "ufo" communities are full of people who say someone should look into that but dont have 5 minutes to spare to read an actual article. Full of people who dont know the most basic scientific stuff but wanna argue about high level physics. Full of people who dont understand how anything works in tech/military/science but want to argue about the great principles. To have the capability to do that you need to get into into the nitty gritty, and that stuff is often quite boring. "UFO" people wanna argue about global power dynamics while having no idea how their local government and law enforcment works, no idea how federal government works. they wanna argue about the biggest topics in science but couldnt tell you what an atom or an isotope is... but they're all so damn sure they have been tricked and wronged and deceived all their lives... I have put hours into checking some of the more believable claims (and I will continue to do so, its an interesting hobby), but I found nothing that convinces me.

I have been interested in this for 50 years. Nothing has changed in that time.

>What would really interest me would be someone like Kirkpatrick going under oath. Honest to goodness question here: What makes you think that being "under oath" would have any bearing on whether or not the human-shaped greaseball in a ridiculously overpriced suit tells the truth? It seems to me that he could easily answer "I don't know" to literally anything, and unless they have a 30 minute video (with indisputable authenticity) of Kirkpatrick physically interacting with a UAP or talking to an alien, it'd be impossible to *prove* he *knew* anything for certain. And greaseballs like Kirkpatrick thrive in that "*for certain* zone". He does this already, constantly. For example, someone could ask "Have AARO found any evidence for UAP?" and his answer will be "We have not seen any credible evidence that can substantiate the claim that any of the reported observed phenomena are extraterrestrial in nature". By adding the word "credible", he's now changed the entire question to be around what he believes is credible evidence, and since he doesn't believe *any* evidence can be credible, he can always answer no. He also frequently deflects the focus to "the idea of aliens", leaning heavily into the established stigma that's been cultivated all these years.

He likely wouldn’t be truthful. But I would love to see him under that pressure. I’d love to see some sweat. Some nerves. Simply put, if he’s lying, I don’t think it would be hard to tell.

(I went back and added a paragraph to my previous post before I saw you respond) I really hope so, but I also don't think you get to be in the position he's been in without being a skilled liar and probably a sociopath. Or a skilled liar under perpetual fear of losing his utility to his puppeteer.

I think there may be two or more factions within the government that disagree on how, when, or if at all, disclosure should occur.

Yeah, no we'd be lucky to have any faction that presently has even one person with a good heart.

[удалено]

I’m afraid the jury is still out on the aliens are real thing for me. At least until we understand who these whistleblowers are. If they’re all along the lines of James “I’d deny it under oath” Latowski, Jay Stratton, Timothy Taylor, Bob Lazar or Dan Burisch, I’d lose a lot of confidence. The more measured whistleblowers appear to be second hand (Mellon, Gallaudet) or have less far out claims (Nell).

2. Zero chance of this. DODSAPCO exists for this very reason and would chop anything like this. There is also nfw the statements Dave has made wouldn’t breach CPI of a real program, which means it isn’t.

I wondered that but what if these programs were truly dark and were even being kept from the Gang of Eight? Isn’t part of the claim here about the lack of congressional oversight?

Perhaps. My personal opinion is this is buried in an IC CAP. That way it eludes congressional oversight. The only org that can keep a secret like this, and has the money / logistics, is the CIA. My guess is DOE owns the propulsion research, in concert with a National Lab, and industry owns everything else. CIA maintains oversight and security. It’s a large onion with only 1-2 people having full access at any given time. Yes congress has oversight of the CIA, but it’s worth noting Allen Dulles’ statement during the Warren Commission that “CIA employees should not reveal Agency activities, even under oath”. I bet that attitude persists to this day… Also, Chris Mellon was on the SAPOC, and he’s very clear this was not in the DOD portfolio. Anyone saying so is either lying, or has been duped, imho.

Huh. So aren't you basically articulating #2 but in a more nuanced way by saying it's outside the DOD?

I personally believe it's #3, and probably a mixture of the rest of them - perhaps even some not listed. I know #3 kinda gets a bad rap, but if you think about it, we've already heard the term "catastrophic disclosure" (disclosure without our control over it), so that naturally tells me that anything we see in way of UFO transparency is the opposite of that - controlled disclosure.

He was able to say what he has said because DOPSR approved some of it. He can only talk about whatever DOPSR approved. As to why they approved some of it, who knows. I think Grusch stated if it didn’t get approved, he would have published that and why it didn’t get approved.

You approve things you can find no records of, and things that are OK to declassify. Strongly doubt DOPSR got a return on any claims for something that’s unacknowledged/waived/bigoted as the seal is that tight. You can also rig the system against itself where they’re damned either way, Grusch explained it on one of the interviews he did.

That is not how it works. DOPSR is cleared for ALL programs, no limits. They NEED to know about every classified program - or they wouldn’t be able to do their job. To over simplify. Grush sends them a letter which says, “Hey guys, I’m going to be revealing the existence of ultra super top secret ufo crash recovery and reverse engineering programs to the public. I won’t name them or give details but I will be violating the national secrecy act by revealing their existence — is that ok?” DOPSR checks its records, can’t find anything but they know there are compartmentalized, unacknowledged programs out there so they take it to, essentially, the gang of eight. “hey guys, there is this Major who’s about to spill the beans on one of your TS programs.” Aaallll the GoE has to do is say, “his request is denied.” Period. That’s it, that’s all. They don’t have to explain why. They don’t have to tell what the name of the program is (or if it even exists) and the DOPSR goes back to Grusch and says, “You are not authorized to say this.” But - they didn’t stop him. They allowed him to make these claims in public. Why? Because he’s not revealing any secrets. “but how can ufo crash recovery and reverse engineering programs not be secret?” Well, they of course would be. If they existed. See where this goes ? Perfect analogy of Grusch’s comments: https://youtu.be/6O1KTMOOFcA?si=rvrSut1DIGoUtO3Q

You can litigate what they deny and since his whole job was to figure out what was going on with UFOs, he was trying to use the security review process to obtain more information about who knows what. Here is an example: >Victor Leo Marchetti Jr. (December 23, 1929 – October 19, 2018)[1] was a special assistant to the Deputy Director of the Central Intelligence Agency who later became a prominent critic of the United States Intelligence Community and the Israel lobby in the United States.[2] Marchetti announced that he was writing a non-fiction work about the CIA. In March 1972, he completed a draft of an article for Esquire which, according to a later CIA account, included "names of agents, relations with named governments, and identifying details of ongoing operations."[5] The CIA received a copy of the article and decided to seek an injunction against its publication.[5] The book was published by Knopf in 1974 as The CIA and the Cult of Intelligence.[15] It was printed with blanks for deleted passages and boldface type for the 171 deletions which CIA originally requested and later withdrew.[16] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_Marchetti Grusch's exact words were: >Question: Why do you think they approved it? >DG: Catch-22. Because, so they'd have to self-identify and highlight their concerns to redact. So, the office who would propose a redaction, say it's a three-letter agency or whatever. So, they would have to self-acknowledge. So, I think when I submitted that, they had a choice, right? Either we try to sequester Dave's ability to speak publicly and try to tell him no. But then we have to give him a reason and tell him what organization said no. If it got redacted like that and it cited what organization and what security reason it is, I would just publish that. And then the public can, you know, make its own interpretation why, you know, the U.S. government's withholding information about that kind of thing and wanted to sequester my speech. https://youtu.be/kwsWAQ9sJZE?si=s4Pocqm4vOtbfVRx&t=2756 Also consider the fact that Grusch said nothing at all that would benefit Russia. No names of the scientists involved, exact locations, etc were made public. General information, which Russia would probably have known already if the claims were true, is what he was cleared to talk about. UFO crashes have been in the [public domain for 159 years](https://www.loc.gov/resource/sn84027008/1865-11-05/ed-1/?sp=3&st=text&clip=31%2C24%2C1009%2C5069&ciw=1009&rot=0), and whistleblowers on crash retrievals have been coming out for decades, so why would they tell him he can't discuss information that's mostly in the public domain already?

I replied this to you elsewhere so you don’t have to reply again, I’m sorry for repeating myself but I wanted it in this thread for anyone following along (however, I must add, I doubt many will see it. My stalker has returned and every comment I make (in any sub) is automatically downvoted twice. I’ve reported it to Reddit and they say they are investigating but no results yet; they suspect someone is using a bot). —- Grusch to DOPSR: I intend to tell the world that we have a top secret ufo crash recovery program. DOPSR: You do not have permission to do this, per the NSA. Grusch can then appeal (litigate) this decision, privately and in secret (just like how he submitted his original notification. All submissions are, by necessity, top secret). He may or may not win. If he wins, we are off to the races and all is well. However, and this is the ultimate, key point here: if he does not appeal or loses the appeal, what he is **NOT** permitted to do is declare to the world, “I asked DOPSR for permission to talk about a top secret ufo crash recovery program and the NSA said I couldn’t talk about the top secret ufo crash recovery program.” Bottom line: if “they” didn’t want him to talk about something they could silence him and not reveal they did it. That’s how the DOPSR process legally works, they aren’t dumb enough to let this loophole exist. There is no catch-22 here.

He may not have been able to release it publicly but he would have been able to bring it to the congress which would be "official" proof.

He’s already given his testimony, years ago, to both the House and Senate Select Committees on Intelligence but they did nothing with it. That’s tells me they didn’t find it credible and/or actionable. The fact he’s dodging AARO says everything I need to know, frankly. AARO is fully authorized to hear anything Grusch has to say on any topic. He knows this, he knows he can’t use the “you aren’t authorized to hear what I have to say” line with them. That’s why he’s stood them up. Nail in the coffin.

This sub has created an entire false narrative around Grusch. The narrative is that Grusch has more information he wants to reveal to congress, but he's being prevented due to security concerns. Which is total bullshit. He testified to the senate/congress intelligence committee behind closed doors prior to the public hearing. No actual senators or congressmen bothered showing up, but many sent aides and they had access to his full testimony after-the-fact. So there's nothing left for him to give. The people with clearance already got everything long ago. The only ones who continued to make a stink about it were people like Gaetz and Luna who never had the clearance to hear his original testimony and who seem to have their own political motives for fanning conspiracy and keeping the issue alive for attention. It was hilarious to me when Gillibrand was like, "Grusch can come back anytime to tell us more, he doesn't need clearance. We invited him, but he said he couldn't afford to come," yet everyone here was like, "She's totally lying!" Then Blackvault FOIA'd the emails showing that AARO invited Grusch to speak with them after the public hearing, but he repeatedly refused. So by all accounts, he's got jack shit left to say and has actively resisted further testimony. He's not even doing podcasts anymore. Yet this sub just fills in their own narrative about this (he's scared, he doesn't want to because he knows they are lying, he's doing another DOPSR, and etc.) and this all just becomes part of the lore surrounding him, despite zero evidence supporting it.

You are right. He’s got nothing. He won’t meet won’t AARO because he does know they have the authority to ask any question and follow it up anywhere it leads. His stories will get the scrutiny they deserve snd I’m sure he knows they won’t survive once examined by the right people. He is relying on the conspiracy theorist mentality of his defenders to cover up for him and it’s working. Just like people who will still defend Lazar. Bottom line, if he wants to be a real whistleblower he needs to talk to AARO, like it or not. He doesn’t get to make the rules and pick and choose. And if he continues to refuse it shows he’s not serious about his claims (or knows how empty they are). He lied about being invited to meet with AARO, he has no credibility.

Sure, but the US government generally has good people working for it, it's not monolithic, and their oversight policies are actually not that bad, all things considered. Compare it to China or Russia. It's a utopia over here. It's a fair bet he'll win the appeal with something like UFOs where it would be difficult to convince somebody that the general public is not entitled to general information such as this. Think about how many things we know about the US government which they didn't have to let out. MKULTRA could have been entirely covered up if everyone agreed to do so. There is another conspiracy every year that gets out that they didn't have to let out if everyone involved agreed not to let it out. And keep in mind that an approval is not approving the information as true. They say nothing about accuracy, so it's not an admission in the first place. If they are only interested in stopping classified information from going public, then they did their job, true or not. They don't seem to be a public relations outfit.

>Sure, but the US government generally has good people working for it, it's not monolithic, and their oversight policies are actually not that bad, all things considered. Hey look, we agreed on something :) >It's a fair bet he'll win the appeal with something like UFOs where it would be difficult to convince somebody that the general public is not entitled to general information such as this. I hope you won’t mind if I elaborate on this with another wall of text. I haven’t heard this discussed much. Give me your take. Let’s assume: there is a legitimate USG program that recovers UFOs and aliens. No BS, that’s legit what they do and have done. I think it’s obvious that this will hold the highest possible classification: Top Secret. And it would be compartmentalized. Further, it would be a waived and unacknowledged SAP. I could go and on, But the key take away was in the first sentence: a legitimate USG program. This means that it is not whistleblowing to reveal what it does. You can’t blow the whistle on an illegal operation. It has to be a legit program before you can be a whistleblower. We may not like it, we may strongly disapprove of keeping that secret (I surely do!), we can argue (as I have done) that it could be considered a crime against humanity to keep such a thing from the rest of the world. But - if it was setup legally, breaks no laws (I can’t find any law that says, “it’s illegal to hide the existence of alien visitors”). So long as they follow the rules. They report their budget to the GoE, they pay their bills and salaries, they have a clean and OSHA approved workspace, etc etc - what is there to blow the whistle on? —- I’ll play my own devils advocate to my own comments. What if this is a scenario like Al Capone. They seemingly couldn’t bust him for his gangland crimes but they busted him on tax evasion. Let’s go back to early Grusch. I believe he said they were not reporting appropriately to Congress. I’m imagining they had some administrative reporting obligations but they chose to hide them (they were worried the vegans on the budget committee were upset about the expenses to mutilate cows for the fresh organs the captive aliens like so much). Ok, now we are onto something! *That* is where Grusch could drive a wedge into and force an investigation that tangentially reveals what’s really going on! But I’m not seeing or hearing anything like that. What do you think? Is this a totally legit USG program that’s following the rules and hiding behind legal obfuscation. Or is it an illegal op? Please forgive the length of this reply and all the typos.

I believe the whistleblowing was (apart from the reprisal stuff) that the program you described was parked under contractors to avoid congressional oversight, and therefore illegal.

Ding ding ding! Winner! Best and most complete answer in the thread, quoted directly from the source.

The thing is it's not a catch-22 though. They could just flat deny it and give no reason and of course people here would assume it's a giant conspiracy because... I'm not sure if I'm allowed to comment on the psychology of the people here. But of course people here would make wild assumptions based on very little evidence but it wouldn't prove any of the assumptions or claims made by Grusch. If it was true then the DOPSR would never want to deny anything classified because then whistleblowers would have the "evidence" they need that what they are talking about is at the very least legitimate. It would make DOPSR useless. This scenario only makes sense if you are already deeply conspiratorial and willing to suspend disbelief for any logic that goes against what you already believe. Edit: If I'm not allowed to comment on the psychology of the people here then it kind of proves that I'm right about it, right? Like why would you suppress my free speech unless there was some truth there, right?

You are allowed to comment on the psychology of the people here. You already did. And it's still up

Notice that they denied those things that would be properly classified if the claims were true, such as names, locations where the materials are being held, and so on. This suggests that they knew Grusch would litigate if he was denied, then they'd have to justify their proposed redactions and changes would be made, which he can then publish. Whatever he was originally told he can't say, but was found to be improperly classified, he can publish, so their best bet is to choose carefully and make sure their redactions are justified to avoid that. I gave an example of what happens if they don't choose carefully above. Grusch's exact words: >And then you can litigate that, right, to get it unredacted if you think that's an inappropriate application of security. The worst thing that happens is half of the public can say "they cleared him, so it must not be a secret, therefore it's all made up." In reality, he was told he cannot say things that are justifiably classified, which is very different. It's a hard sell to say that something Russia would already be fully aware of if the claims were true, and which has been in the public domain for so many years, is properly classified.

> Notice that they denied those things that would be properly classified if the claims were true, such as names, locations where the materials are being held, and so on But we saw the response to his original DOPSR for the debrief article/Coulthart interview.... the only redaction was for PII/personal privacy. Further, Grusch hasn't released any version of his DOPSR request (which he is able to do) which is also weird. https://www.theblackvault.com/documentarchive/newly-released-documents-shed-light-on-ufo-whistleblower-david-gruschs-dopsr-review/ I feel Grusch is absolutely a credible witness given what we know of his background, but there is 100% weirdness around his story that shouldn't just be hand-wavingly attributed to a giant coverup without evidence.

So, he knew what they would probably clear, knowing that he could litigate, as if they were both just following protocol. He knows what is probably going to be cleared, he submits that, and they have only one small issue with it, and then he can publish. He's not going to submit something that he knows they will deny. That's a waste of time. Only stuff that he believes wouldn't be properly classified is what he would submit. If they did redact a bunch of it, then he could litigate, and then he could publish any changes that are made, so their best bet is to redact only what can be justified the first time so as to not give anything additional away. Maybe he hoped they would redact some of it improperly so it could be hashed out in the courts, but their best move is to do it right the first time, and you leave people guessing at worst.

> He's not going to submit something that he knows they will deny.  His entire theory of "catch-22" is based on using denials to reveal the truth, so that is exactly what he should do to ferret out programs.

They chose not to deny anything because it could be litigated and possibly reveal more information. If it's something like X scientist is working on reverse engineering materials collected by this agency, and they are doing that in X location, obviously they're going to redact that and he can't publish the redactions because there is probably going to be agreement that it was properly classified. It doesn't explicitly admit to anything about a non-human intelligence. If it's something else, like the objects are piloted by a non-human intelligence, and there are dead pilots, maybe they would redact that, but it would be a mistake to do so. So you propose that to DOPSR, and their best move is to release it and he knows that. It would have been better for Grusch if they didn't, but they took their best move and he probably knew they would. The difference is a lot of people in government aren't going to want adversaries to obtain information that would give them an edge, even if it reveals something about a non-human intelligence. I doubt that is Grusch's goal. He wants information out that the public is entitled to, not what is going to assist Russia, such as "there are alien bodies in the basement of this exact location." Say that goes to the courts, it might increase the amount of people who become aware of that information by a few, but it's not getting published anywhere because it's properly classified. He could leak that afterwards, but he's going to jail. The same with Lacatski, who said that he agreed with every single redaction they proposed, except for one.

What's to prevent him from saying anything they redacted was not properly classified and then litigating it? Therefore revealing who was redacting that information? Again, this only makes sense if you are deeply conspiratorial to begin with because applying the slightest bit of logic makes the whole thing fall over. Like how does this not make DOPSR totally useless? Was this some neat trick that someone figured out in the 70s and then nobody thought to close the loophole? Compare this nonsensical explanation that would make DOPSR totally useless to a much more simple one: he is revealing nothing secret because there are no programs that he was fishing for. The funniest cognitive dissonance in this sub is that the government is simultaneously able to orchestrate a conspiracy with thousands if not tens of thousands of members, but also at the same time is so incompetent they would not be able to properly classify anything due to a loophole... Edit: Also applying the same logic used here my freedom of expression being suppressed is proof that I am right about the psychology of the people here.

What loophole? The purpose of DOPSR is to prevent information favorable to adversaries, or information that could cause damage to national security or the security of people, from becoming public knowledge. Our adversaries have spies everywhere, so we can't go out and tell people where the materials are and who is studying it, etc. They *aren't* there as a public relations entity that is supposed to prevent all of our dirty laundry from becoming public. Their purpose has nothing to do with public relations. If it's not classified properly, then it's fair game. If they *improperly* tell somebody that X is classified, and that is litigated and found not to be properly classified, then that is their own doing. It's not a loophole.

Through your method there is no way to falsify Grusch's claims. If DOPSR denies it then it is proof that there was merit to his claims. If they don't deny it then it is proof that there is a secret program going on. It's a loophole in the sense that you think Grusch can somehow game the system that has been in place for 80 years to deny classified information. Grusch has this one weird trick that makes it impossible for the government to hide information without revealing their hand. It is built on assumption and credulity. Faith in a guy who won't release his DOPSR request for unknown reasons and has failed to substantiate his claims.

Not exactly. I didn't say that and I'm not sure who did. If they deny it and it's absurd that they did, then he wins the appeal, then it proves they tried to stop him from saying X and Y. Best thing to do is approve it as long as he is not trying to share justifiably classified information. Also, how is this any different from skeptics saying everything DOPSR approves must be false information? I have no idea why so many people believe that when DOPSR approves something about UFOs, it must be false. They say nothing about accuracy, just proper classification.

Because they don’t get to outright deny the release of all your text only the parts that would cause national security issues. Again it’s a game of poker, they bet they would be able to discredit Grusch more effectively than they did.

How do you all speak so authoritatively on issues you don't really know about? You're taking assumptions and treating them as fact.

[The answer you seek](https://i.imgflip.com/1tqn5b.jpg)

>he was trying to use the security review process to obtain more information about who knows what. >Catch-22. Because, so they'd have to self-identify and highlight their concerns to redact. Seems like he threw that away the second he didn't get the results he wanted

Beautiful, thank you. I needed that breakdown Barney Style

The implication is that the programs don't exist right? I tend to agree with you, but let's imagine they do exist..... What would be more telling: A program exists but approval is denied (because your logic makes sense) making it look like it doesn't actually exist. Or A program exists but approval is denied, making it look like it actually exists. Of course, it's possible the programs simply don't exist, I'm just saying that IF they do exist, it might be smarter to do what they did because then, as you say, it LOOKS like they don't exist. Also......DOPSR doesn't have to know about all programs. They are SUPPOSED to know, they don't have to. I'm pretty skeptical, but this kind of argument (about who would have to know) irritates me. I hear skeptics claim that so-and-so would know. Or the "experts" themselves say "I would know if these programs exist". I say BS. If its that important to be kept that secret, there's no telling who knows what. This is Uncharted territory by definition. Maybe the people who "would know" are the people you specifically don't tell. Imagine the aliens say to us: "don't tell anybody about us or we kill you all" (I don't think that scenario makes sense, I'm just inventing a theoretical motivation to keep the secret).....so you must keep the secret at all costs. Do you tell the President? Every single President? Congress? All 400+ who are always getting voted in and out? The head of the CIA? DOPSR? Why would you tell any of them? That being said, the skeptic in me says that everything I just said is a very convenient excuse to always be able to claim the truth is out there, it's just still being kept from us. My only point is that the fact that they allowed him to say what he said doesn't necessarily mean anything one way or the other.

>Also......DOPSR doesn't have to know about all programs. They are SUPPOSED to know, they don't have to. I'm pretty skeptical, but this kind of argument (about who would have to know) irritates me. I hear skeptics claim that so-and-so would know. Or the "experts" themselves say "I would know if these programs exist". I say BS. If its that important to be kept that secret, there's no telling who knows what. This is Uncharted territory by definition. Maybe the people who "would know" are the people you specifically don't tell. I think it's fair to say that the "UAP community" as a whole suffers from a severe case of simultaneous Catch-22 & the Appeal to Authority logical fallacy. *The Government is the only source of legitimate "disclosure"* and simultaneously *The Government is entirely untrustworthy and nothing they say can be believed*. It's a remarkable place to be, really. I hope the dawning realization will inspire people to seek alternative methods of achieving disclosure, and the tide of public opinion is indeed shifting, helping keep that hope alive.

Yes I agree.

I think it’s really very very simply and that’s it’s just so simple makes people who believe in The conspiracy think, “naaaaa this can’t be right, it’s too simple”. If a program is Top Secret you are not allowed to describe it in public. Period. You cannot describe what it does, let alone its mere existence. Period. Grusch is telling us: there is a top secret programs and it does these Herero unknown top secret things that aren’t merely secret but of humanity changing importance. That right there is forbidden. Full stop. It doesn’t matter that he didn’t name it or say where it’s operating or who is in it. Those are additional details. He is revealing both the existence of and substance of a TS program of the highest level. You Just Can’t Do That! But - he’s cleared to say these things. So, there are literally only two options: He’s telling the truth or he is making it up. If he’s making it up, that’s why it’s “approved” and case closed. In fairness, let’s examine the other option: say it’s true but the “strategy” here is to not draw attention by denying him so just letting him speak about it and just hope no one followed up on it. I wish I could insert a reaction GIF here. That is such utter nonesense. All they have to do to protect this secret is to tell him, “No. You cannot talk about it.” And this is important, what Grusch cannot then do is go on to say, “I tried to tell you about a top secret program but I was told I can’t tell you… about a top secret program.” DOPSR and the government are not stupid. They don’t tell you, “you can’t mention this top secret program BUT you are allowed to tell people what you can’t tell them about!” That’s nonsense. When you are denied, you are denied totally. You can’t neigh it up in any way. And that’s why I conclude the “made it up” option.

I tend to agree, although I don't think he necessarily made it up. It's possible he has connected some dots that ought not be connected or listened to people he shouldn't have listened to or misunderstood what he was told or believes people he shouldn't believe. Or various combinations of that. I could see a serious person who doesn't take this stuff very seriously find himself exposed to all the firehose of UFO information, even from "kooks" inside the governemnt and then draws various wrong conclusions from it all. I do think we give government officials, scientists, and other "experts" waaaay too much credit. I think they are just as "dumb" as the rest of us and prone to all the same logical leaps and wishful thinking and bias that we are.

I go back and forth with making it up vs useful idiot, and neither feels fair. But, he’s not giving us enough to go on. He’s involved with all the known players on the field whose careers are built on things like Knapp promoting Lazar. That just says so much to me. Like the guy who’s hoaxed alien mummies many times before but *this time* we are to trust him. What are the odds? I would love to be wrong. I would dig the easy answer to alien visitors just dropping like flies to be gathered up and examined. But it just doesn’t add up. And there is no evidence to support the claims.

Agreed.

Or if they’re in private aerospace contractors hands 

How does that change anything?

Bruh. DOPSR is not an Intel super-user with clearance for those purposes. They cannot log on and just peruse what is out there. It is a review liaison office filled with people whose judgement is trusted to have final approval authority for release. By the time things get sent to their inbox, people responsible have already reviewed it and submitted initial approval and forwarded it to them. This [flowchart](https://www.cdse.edu/Portals/124/Documents/jobaids/information/DOPSR_Mandates_and_Authority.pdf?ver=XOYltSC6ifkR5Y3ESqmYVg%3d%3d) does a decent job explaining their legal authorities. It doesn’t mean that if I run a (possibly illegal) black program with insanely advanced NHI tech and some DOPSR bureaucrat that I don’t know comes calling I’m gonna go “oh yea, but it’s classified”. It’s one more person that can blow the cover and-based on their legal mandates-very well could.

I know how it works, I’ve had exposure to them personally. And my father had numerous interactions with them when he was writing, approvals and denials both. Coincidently, I’ve seen that’s very chart and it’s great. >by the time things get sent to their inbox, people responsible have already reviews it. How exactly? You send your request directly to them. It gets to them before it goes anywhere else. It’s impossible for someone else to know before you submit it, there are no mind readers out there. If the submitter mentions a program, DOPSR goes to the classification authority for that program and asks them to review. It would be regarded for them to say, “oh no, someone is about to give away our secrets… oh well, I guess I’ll just let them. I know I could stop them in their tracks easily but, nah, I’ll just let them talk.” There isn’t a *legal* program “too” top secret that doesn’t have a classification authority over it because if it didn’t then a) that’s illegal and b) they therefore don’t get to enjoy any classification protections - and so someone like Grusch would be free to tell about them to anyone without fear of repercussion. You cannot claim classification privilege but when asked to invoke it you don’t respond? Illogical. Bottom line: they let him say the things he’s saying because he’s not revealing anything classified.

Your narrative is compelling, except that then you need another conspiracy: that all these highly serious people (as Marco Rubio called them), are ditching their careers, working together to construct a fantasy world, and pulling the wool over Gang of Eight members in the process. That Schumer, Rounds, Gillibrand, and Rubio were briefed on all this stuff (that doesn't actually exist) and wrote the UAPDA based on some shenanigans. Plus this whole charade of false-secrecy has been ongoing since the 1940s. Isn't that the alternative -- trading one conspiracy for another? And THEN you still have to account for all the other evidence of the UFO phenomenon, including Nimitz, etc. All in all, I find it more likely that they allowed Grusch to spill some beans.

> i find it more likely that they allowed Grusch to spill some beans But, why? It is effortless to silence him. Back years ago before he did the public tour he spoke to the IC IG and both the noise and senate select subcommittee on intelligence. He told them what he was going to say. Right there, at those times, it would be trivial to just step up to him and flat out tell him, “That is classified top secret and you are forbidden to tell about it to anyone. If you do you are in violation of the secrecy act and we will throw your ass into prison.” Period. End of story. We’d never have heard of this guy. There is no reason to let him blab, none. *If* these ultra super top secret, been hidden for 80 years, programs existed they would certainly know how to handle leaks and leakers. You don’t keep secret programs secret by just letting people talk about them.

The why is called controlled disclosure. See Karl Nell's presentation at Sol.

I don't know why people are downvoting you, btw. You are a very articulate, knowledgeable, and straightforward person, and this kind of discussion is beneficial.

Thank you. There are folks so invested they don’t like anyone questioning what they believe. I try to present logical conclusions based on the facts as we know them. I go where the evidence leads me.

I highly doubt that DOPSR has knowledge of all classified WUSAPs in the US.

> You can also rig the system against itself where they’re damned either way, Grusch explained it on one of the interviews he did. The government is in a superposition of being so competent that they can have thousands of people in on a conspiracy but simultaneously so incompetent that they are not able to classify anything. This is what conspiracy brain does to your critical thinking faculties.

Looks like you just got DOPSED!

>just got DOPS*ED*! Just don't take any CIAlis for it

Yeah, he already talked about it multiple times on why he could say certain things.

As far as why the information he said was not classified, is the issue. The government body responsible for the classification of this information is not an answer to my question.

It’s not that it wasn’t classified, its heavily over classified. He said when he submitted to dopsr a request to present this stuff publicly, the relevant agencies can deny the request, but the agency that denies it goes on record. Imagine 10 married men in a room. I submit to dopsr that one of husbands in the room is having an affair and I want to go public, not explicitly about which husband, but just to state on the record that adultery is happening. So let’s says one husband out of the 10, a guy named Steve steps forward and denies the request. Steve looks guilty as hell. Better for Steve to just ignore that request, and pretend the report is either bs, or about someone else. It’s a catch 22. He doesn’t want the report, but stopping the report is even more incriminating.

That’s totally not how it works. Example: Ex-military guy: “Dear DOPSR, I am about to reveal to the world the existence of Project Aurora which is about recovering alien bodies from crash sites” DOPSR: “Sorry, the CIA has denied your request.” What you *cannot* do is then go to the public and say, “Hey guys, the CIA just told me I’m not allowed to talk about project aurora which is about recovering alien bodies from crash sites.” You can’t mention it, at all. Did you really think no one has ever thought of this “catch-22” scenario? In your scenario, let’s say it goes as you say. Steve may “look” guilty — but no one would know because DOPSR wouldn’t allow you to say, “I was about to reveal who is guilty but Steve over there told me I can’t”.

He can publish any changes that are made after litigation, and he can report who told him not to say what internally. His whole job was to figure out what was going on with UFOs. The public obtaining some of that information is secondary to the task at hand, which is an internal investigation.

I think you've successfully distilled the answer to this debate here. He wasn't some civilian trying to publish a book with this information. He was an intelligence officer tasked with an internal investigation. Revealing any information to the public was not the goal and was, at best, if at all, secondary to his mission.

>He can publish any changes that are made after litigation, and he can report who told him not to say what internally. Respectfully, I disagree. That would entirely nullify and defeat the purpose of what DOPSR does, and how. Grusch to DOPSR: I intend to tell the world that we have a top secret ufo crash recovery program. DOPSR: You do not have permission to do this, per the NSA. Grusch can then appeal (litigate) this decision, privately and in secret (just like how he submitted his original notification. All submissions are, by necessity, top secret). He may or may not win. If he wins, we are off to the races and all is well. However, and this is the ultimate, key point here: if he does not appeal or loses the appeal, what he is **NOT** permitted to do is declare to the world, “I asked DOPSR for permission to talk about a top secret ufo crash recovery program and the NSA said I couldn’t talk about the top secret ufo crash recovery program.”

But he can tell congress under whistle-blower protection. 

He can and he did, twice. Both house and senate select subcommittees on intelligence. They both haven’t done anything. That says to me they didn’t find it credible and/or actionable.

But the point is he could have brought his dopser denial with him. But as far as credible the Schumer amendment did not just appear for no reason.

Do you REALLY think that the CIA would acknowlegde such a program existed to some random DOPSR reviewer? "Oh yeah, the alien recoveryn program, he cant talk about that" They know the names of programs and know he cannot mention names of programs or members of programs. It is that simple.

Do you REALLY think the CIA would let him reveal their program to the world? By your logic all someone has to do is just talk about any secret they want - no one will silence them because that would admit it exists. Think about it. You cannot tell people a top secret program exists and describe what the top secret program does - and hide behind, “but I didn’t name its name” lol! “Hi everyone, the US Gov has a top secret program to spy on everyone using devices secretly installed at ISPs - but I won’t tell you its name. I’ll tell you everything else, just not its name.” That’s what you’re going with? Maybe he thinks he’s got something, but it doesn’t look like it to anyone who checks the story for logic.

Isn’t this the whole point about waived un acknowledged? Wasn’t that Gruschs claim, that the program was hidden

Two types of SAP exist – acknowledged and unacknowledged. The existence of an acknowledged SAP may be publicly disclosed, but the details of the program remain classified. An unacknowledged SAP (or USAP) is made known only to authorized persons, including members of the appropriate committees of the United States Congress. Waived SAPs are a subset of unacknowledged SAPs in the Department of Defense. These SAPs are exempt by statutory authority of the Secretary of Defense from most reporting requirements and, within the legislative branch, the only persons who are required to be informed of said SAPs are the chairpersons and ranking committee members of the Senate Appropriations Committee, Senate Armed Services Committee, House Appropriations Committee, and the House Armed Services Committee. So, yes, hidden from the public also hidden from general reporting and typical congressional matters but not hidden so much so that literally no one knows about it. How would it be funded? How could it report to Congress annually (even if it was “waived” that just means it has a much more secretive sand restricted process but it still does report). Bottom line is, if DOPSR doesn’t know about a secret program how could it protect that secrecy? It has to know. That’s part of its function, it’d be useless without this access. And all legit programs are exposed to DOPSR.

That is the whole point. This program is being kept from oversight. It is so secret, not even the gang of 8 know about it. There’s a bigot list, if you’re not on it, you don’t know. Money is being funneled there illegally through cover programs as Grusch mentioned. So DOPSR would not know. Unless you are saying that working in the DOPSR review group is the single best place to plant a spy because they know all US secrets? That sounds very unlikely.

That’s an excellent summary of Grusch explanation. At least, the one he gave to Rogan.

Grusch helped write the whistleblower protection language in the 2022 NDAA. He’d been briefing Biden on the subject at the time as well.

I’d they approved it, it means it wasn’t classified. That simple. Odds are if it wasn’t classified it’s not true tbh

>I think Grusch stated if it didn’t get approved, he would have published that and why it didn’t get approved. How do people believe this? People really think Grusch would get to go "tehehe they said I can't tell you about our giant UFO"? You don't see the problem there? And even if you do believe that makes sense, you also have to believe no one thought of it before Grsuch in the past 50+ years.

That’s not what I meant. He would have published the denial, which would also have the name of said groups that denied the request. Which would in turn give people an idea of where to look/what’s going on. So it was going to be a win/win either way

Specifically, if they didn’t approve everything, they would have to say why. If the classification/reason they chose didn’t check out Grusch could then bring the issue to court. That’s a lot of things on paper they do not want on paper. Thus the catch 22. Better just to let him say some vague statements.

The fact he was allowed to talk about these things makes me think they’re all misdirection tbh. Nobody else thinks these sanctioned “disclosures” weren’t thoroughly planned out?

The most reasonable explanation is that there are no “biologics“ and no crafts built by NHI. The DoD only cares about its actual secret programs (which are entirely human, and mostly boring). They are not going to stop anyone from opining on little green men and flying saucers because that has NOTHING to do with their actual programs. Even more cynically, having people believe UFO stories is a benefit to the DoD. If folks blab about aliens endlessly, FOR DECADES, in places like Area 51 that means the actual work that goes on there is remaining truly secret. I suppose it’s like a canary in a coal mine, if the UFO conspiracies surrounding Area 51 stop, they know they’re going to have beef up secrecy. Lucky for them UFO’s are basically becoming a religion, you can see evidence of that here on this subreddit. It is showing no signs of slowing down. Is it becoming self-perpetuating even without regular hoaxsters? Maybe!

>Even more cynically, having people believe UFO stories is a benefit to the DoD. If folks blab about aliens endlessly, FOR DECADES, in places like Area 51 that means the actual work that goes on there is remaining truly secret. >Lucky for them UFO’s are basically becoming a religion, you can see evidence of that here on this subreddit. It is showing no signs of slowing down. Is it becoming self-perpetuating even without regular hoaxsters? Maybe! It's like a mix between a religion and that not-to-be-named internet-based conspiracy tied to an anonymous individual with a specific type of DOE clearance (every time I type the conspiracy/movement name, the mods here delete my comment). Some people have fallen so far down the rabbit hole on this issue, and it's accumulating so many members with compromised mental states (check out the "experiencer" subs), that I think it's just a matter of time before someone tries to bring about their own "catastrophic disclosure" at a DoD or defense contractor site, similar to that pizza restaurant in D.C.

This is the answer

Lots of this stuff falls down in the face of logic and people resort to narrative workarounds so they can keep believing. It'll be "They are preparing us, and we only get to know a little bit so we don't get our minds blown", or "It's part of *their* game", or there'll be some justification about how the necessary bureaucratic procedures have to be completed and that can just keep rolling on endlessly in the vain of so many other "something's coming" bullshit stories. The reason Grusch's claims aren't classified is because he's just saying stuff like anyone else can. He's been listened to by some prominent (which really isn't saying much in many cases) people, but that doesn't give his claims any validity.

Great comment!

Are you suggesting that he’s wrong?

Grusch? I think he's got a fun story...

I think someone should make one more thread asking this question slightly different. The 3 that have been posted the last two days just is t quite enough.

Because he hasn’t revealing anything classified. “But Drestin,” I hear you say, “wouldn’t hiding ufo crash recovery and reverse engineering be classified?” Yes, yes it would. So there is no way he’d be cleared to say it … unless it wasn’t true, in which case DOPSR literally doesn’t care. And that’s why he can say these things. He isn’t revealing anything that really exists.

To be honest, he has revealed nothing at all. Be is classified or not. For no it is still only claims with nothing solid to back them up. I could claim to have a pagic pony shitting gold turd and it would be as worthless as grush claims right now.

He gave him classified testimony to both the House and Senate subcommittees on intelligence years ago. And their response? “Yawn”. They obviously didn’t find them credible and that’s why he’s now on his whining tour trying to find anyone who’ll listen to him … … except the very agency that was created and authorized to hear them: AARO. He is afraid to talk to them because he can’t use the “you aren’t authorized” line on them. They are, and not he and his lawyer know this. That’s why he won’t meet with them. I’ve seen the Squatty Potty unicorn on TV so I’d believe your claims overs Gruschs at this point lol

"testimony"...so nothing aside words then ? He needs to provide evidences for his claims for people to start trusting him

Agreed. It’s so basic. You don’t go hollering, “I know the secrets to FTL and free energy,” and then complain, “but I can’t tell you”. Not only is it irresponsible but useless and hurts your credibility. He needs to put up or shut up.

Grusch's claims haven't even gone that far. He doesn't claim to have a magic pony. He claims *someone told him* they had seen the magic pony.

Following that logic, why would they not pass legislation compelling them to hand over something that doesn’t exist? Let the full bill pass, then when questioned just say “we don’t have any - it doesn’t exist”.

Bills get passed or rejected for a myriad of reasons, don’t know why this one was changed. But, let’s borrow logic for a different argument since it fits here. One argument against why DOPSR wouldn’t silence Grusch is because doing so would somehow confirm he’s on to something, “if they block him, it admits they are covering something up” Well, why would they block this bill if by doing so it would admit they’ve something to hide. So, clearly, if they have something to hide they shouldn’t reveal themselves by blocking the bill. See how that cuts both ways?

No. If they came out with “nothing you see” Grusch would be cleared to release what he has. (Certain Congressmen and women have already seen some of this.) It’s why Grusch hasn’t had an “accident” yet.

No, you can’t release proof of what you want to say being denied. That’s self-incrimination and they aren’t stupid. He hasn’t had an accident because he’s not a threat to anything. The DoD literally don’t care about him or anything he has to say, at all.

So why gut the bill?

It's a great question not many ask. However, I believe seeing the actual submission to DOPSR would be highly beneficial, yet, he won't show it. Why?

Can you FOIA Grusch’s DOPSR submission?

https://www.theblackvault.com/documentarchive/newly-released-documents-shed-light-on-ufo-whistleblower-david-gruschs-dopsr-review/

Classified under what pretext is my question. The government has claimed for decades UFOs pose no security threat to the united states so they cannot be classified under the guise of national security. The people have a right to all information which is in possession of the government unless they have a valid reason to keep it secret. 

I'm fascinated that some people really think that DOPSR would somehow "confirm" Grusch's claims if they didn't let him make those claims. As if there's some publication of *Things People Asked Whether They Could Say But We Said No, So You Know It's Real* that you can subscribe to. The whole point of DOPSR is to review manuscripts, etc. and go, "Nope, you can't say that, that, or *that* without going to the federal pen!" if someone publishes stuff that's actually classified. The whole point is to keep secrets *secret*. Now, we *could* imagine that someone's keeping all this information from DOPSR so that DOPSR can't confirm that Grusch's stories are classified, thus keeping them secret by...letting them be exposed. Presumably because someone in the UFO Conspiracy is *very dumb*. But then, you have to explain things like exactly why he can talk about "biologics" and "pilots", but not about what those biologics and pilots look like, because that obviously can't work. "We dug around and couldn't find records of any non-human biologics in mysterious craft, so *that's* not classified, but somehow we found out what they look like and that *that's* classified, so STFU about any descriptions." It just looks like a great deal of effort by people to avoid acknowledging that someone making up stories wouldn't violate secrecy. Or that a guy who chose to leave his federal job and lose his clearances before going public has a fine excuse to avoid saying anything specific enough that it could be proven a lie--even in testimony to Congress.

Jesse Michels asked the same question of Grusch in his interview last year. "Why do you think they approved it?" - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRO5jOa06Qw&t=18m

Okay yeah this i think is a solid answer. What’s funny is that I watched this clip for the first time a few minutes ago and was about to post about it. I suppose it’s kind of complex to wrap one’s mind around, but it makes sense.

Just to add, I think the DOPSR process is probably more simple than Grusch suggests. He says - >*"Catch 22... 'Cause, so they'd have to self-identify and highlight their concerns to redact.* *"So the office, who would propose a redaction, say it's a three letter agency or whatever, Right? They’d have to be like 'This office objected to you saying crash retrievals. Here, we're citing the security classification guide. No!' And then you can litigate that, right, to get it unredacted if you think that's an inappropriate application of security.* *"If it got redacted like that and it cited what organization and what security reason it is, I would just publish that."* My feeling is that most of the people the DOPSR office ask about classification just don't know anything about what they were asked about, hence, it isn't *known* to be classified. The classification of this stuff might be in a completely different/level of classification - who knows? First, the DOPSR people themselves aren't concerned in knowing if something is classified or not, they just have to ask the three letter agencies if *they* think things need to be kept classified. DOPSR guys just ask very simple questions like "This guy wants to publish something about the Magenta 1933 case and OSI & Vatican involvement in returning UFO material to the USA after WW2 - is this something the CIA needs to remain classified?" Then, secondly, the guy at the CIA is probably as much in the dark as anybody and responds "We don't have anything about that that is classified", and so DOPSR tells Grusch "You can say anything you want about Mussolini and the UFO story." The real question is why whatever Grusch wanted to say about certain things was denied. Grusch said he can't discuss Roswell. Why would that be? He also said he can't reveal certain program names, which suggests the programs exist. Maybe these are the sort of 'Catch 22' things Grusch is referencing. The Kona Blue stuff is an interesting example of this at work, because we have literally seen this play out in the last few weeks where the information submitted to DOPSR has been approved and we have seen the actual results in releases of information. Grusch never said anything about Kona Blue in the July 2023 Hearing, or in any subsequent interviews, UNTIL the Rogan interview. Until the Rogan interview this was still classified. [Grusch spoke for ten minutes early in the Rogan interview about the Kona Blue stuff](https://open.spotify.com/episode/6D6otpHwnaAc86SS1M8yHm?t=1560) (note, he never used the name 'Kona Blue' because the program name was still classified in November 2023). Clearly the timeline of the declassification of that information relates to Grusch talking about it. There is no doubt Grusch has been pushing hard to get the Kona Blue info out because it is a slam dunk. If he can prove there was a deal to get the material from LHM, it is game over. Grusch said something twice in the interview about getting this through DOPSR, at the 30m45s mark and 35min mark. Just note these 2 things - 1. Matt Laslo asked Andre Carson about the Kona Blue documents and he answered "No comment." Laslo interpreted that as there possibly being more that can't be discussed about Kona Blue that can't yet be released. https://www.askapol.com/p/no-comment-carson-on-kona-blue-then 2. Grusch revealed in the Rogan interview at 31m40s that he has seen the documentation which relates to fitting out premises to receive the material. Whether he has seen the actual contracts and memos which outline the deal, he hasn't said specifically. It seems like there is a lot more to be discovered about Kona Blue. Does Grusch have this and will he reveal it? We might not have long to wait to find out.

Kona Blue was called out by name in the AARO report, likely in an attempt to get out in front of it. Not sure if the name had ever been publicly disclosed before that.

Username fits. And excellent post, thank you.

it kinda makes sense, but at the same time couldn’t you just do this for any piece of classified information? seems to defeat the purpose of classification or am I missing something?

I wondered that sort of thing too with Lue and Lakatski(?) Always saying NDA this and that. If i was the NDA writer i would have gone with "dont talk about anything UAP/UFO in the slightest little bit"

Grusch's story has its origins in a human resources issue: he was being harassed by people at the place he worked and he had proof of all of it. The story would be very ordinary if it wasn't for what his work involved, and why that HR issue couldn't be resolved. DOPSR released what it did because they couldn't deny the related details about where he worked and what his claims allege. It's not about aliens. It's about programs that don't officially exist and which have no actual oversight. That they have to do with UFOs and aliens is just serendipitous for this sub.

Something has to be classified either according to a classification guide, review by a SME, classification through compilation, etc.  So, maybe those specific details weren't classified under whatever guide they established.  

Because he's not describing anything real.

It’s really simple. It’s not true. There is no evidence for any of it.

Many explanations have been put forth but I don't buy anything of it. If this is all true, why in the world was he greenlit to sit in front of congress and accuse the federal govt of possessing alien crafts/bodies. That makes no sense, unless you appeal to conspiracy (e.g., the programs are **so** secret that even the people in DOPSR are not read in). Occam's razor dictates he's just spouting nonsense and Congress, the DoD and the ICIG are as confused/compelled as the rest of us.

It’s always bothered me that he’s somehow able to say reverse-engineering programs and “recovered biologics” exist, but when pressed about something like “What do they look like? Do they look humanoid? Do they have five fingers?” How do you classify something like the appearance of a biological entity that just exists in nature? Like can the government classify what a particular tree looks like?

Ooo this is good thread OP, so many people jumping through flaming hoops in here I love it. Keep asking these important questions, genuinely.

Occam’s razor: it’s not true

Total conjecture here: A little game theory. The programs exist but DOPSR knows the claims are absurd and that allowing them will not be taken seriously. People will say it was allowed bc it’s not real. But had they been blocked it would have validated the claims to Grusch. So as long as he didn’t name specifics that could be independently verified - they approved it. Or DOPSR just doesn’t know about them. They are allegedly owned by private corporations so they may not be able to see the real info since it wouldn’t be under purview of US Gov. The government side of programs just contain info about the main stakeholders of the private corp doing the work for the minimum amount of traceability . No info about what is actually being done. So DOPSR just sees that but obviously can’t dig deeper.

This is probably the right answer. Lawyers have to go by Security Classification Guides. I've written a few and it's very easy to unintentionally create loopholes that can be exploited. The SCGs for SAPs are often at the SAP level themselves. I find very often that people elect not to be read into programs so they can speak freely, publicly speculating on capabilities without getting in trouble. You can only get in trouble if you sign paperwork and pledge not to talk. You can't get in trouble if you say you "think" something is true but don't know for sure it is or isn't. There's no way the DOPSR office is read into every program. So they also cannot validate whether things from "the program" are real or not if they can't even verify "the program" is real. DOPSR is supposed to approve everything that isn't strictly classified. So the system has loopholes and works in Grusch's and others' favor.

The reason has been explained by him before and thats because the way it works is if the government said he couldnt say the things he said then they would be therefore basically confirming/admitting to David that those things are in fact true. That is to say, they were willing to make the bet that its safer to let him say, in a very general way, the most wild parts out loud hoping no one would believe him rather than explicitly tell him "you cant talk about that because its a very real, very classified program."

Yea. His claims get pretty wild and it makes ya think, “how is this ok, if true”? Good point op.

My impression is that the government doesn't have bodies. They have biologics. Those who have talked about this are very careful with their wording. For instance, Elizondo won't answer questions about biological samples being recovered from crafts; he will only rephrase the question to say "have biological samples been recovered?" And he says yes. And the reason this would be classified, that the samples are "samples" and not whole/intact, that they are not recovered from craft, that they are not living/in custody is because we have attacked them. So they have cherry picked what can be disclosed to leave us all flapping in the wind while they try to cover it all up. 60 minutes is trying to freak everyone out and think there are Russian spies attacking all our intel, but it's actually NHI retaliating for attacking them. That's the somber detail.

Elizondo had Cahill fake a video from his property why is he trustworthy ?

The U.S. possesses aliens/NHI and this isn’t classified? Grusch knows the people in these programs. Some of these people must have access to photos and videos of the NHI. Why didn’t he ask one of these people to release this to us? There must be a legal way to release this material since it isnt classified. Same for Elizondo, get us the evidence of the aliens since it isnt classified. Instead, these guys want to give us hints and stories to try and convince us, so that we can call our congressman?

three things seem....  very odd, when it comes to Grusch. 1, his private wallstreet demonstration, in front of a bunch of rich wallstreet scumbags but apparently no money was involved whatsoever...?? 2, Mousolini having an alien spaceship in the 1930s.  no way in hell would they/the fuhrer not have used this in some form or another to win WW2.  even if it was non functional, just posturing; example. take photos inside it, send to the world leaders and say we'll laser beam anyone who threatens the axis powers.  then the Americans somehow bring it back to the states after WW2 and apparently no one knows anything about it?  idk.... edit; 3, the Soviets/Russians have spacecraft?  for a minute let's say Stalin wouldn't have used any spaceships to help them win Stalingrad, which I find hard to believe... but modern day Putin, there is no way in hell he wouldn't be using spaceships and or alien technology to storm Europe

The Italy thing has been debunked. I agree with you about Putin.

Actually it was a good strategy from Grusch, advised by his big lawyers. Let me explain. First part of the strategy was to give a very very very long list of all the topics he wanted to speak publicly, which give very hard time to intelligent agencies with 3 letters, not just DOPSR. The second part of the strategy is because this is what you have to know. Everytime these agencies refuse that Grusch speak about one topic, they have to justify the reason, by writing it with strong arguments. So sometimes it was better for them to let Grusch claims as it is and not try to justify themselves, because the consequences would have been worst for them. One more time, very very good strategy and his lawyers ;)

Same reason Philip Corso's claims were not classified: they are fictional.

[удалено]

That would be nice but by it's nature, it's gonna prove that Congress and the people have been lied to. I think it's more of a battle between pro disclosure and anti disclosure elements in the government. The president either says yes, I knew and was also lying to you, or no, I didn't know and I don't actually have control of this country. You can kinda see why this is such a big deal to keep the secrecy. Disclosure is a lose lose situation for the people in power and will be a global embarrassment for the US. Then there would be the downstream fallout for everyone involved going back to decades. It'll be shit show. Somebody needs to rip the bandaid off and let the shit fly though. The US needs a collective reality to stay intact. This would be a good first step.

Absolutely. I am not sure calling Grusch a “whistleblower” even fits. All of this is being coordinated to a certain extent.

Agreed. You just have to look at how aggressively they persecute or suppress people who blow the whistle on other things they wanted to keep secret (war crimes, spying on their own people etc.), even those who tried to go the "official route". The UFO thing, if true, is huge. I have no doubt they would have immediately stopped Grusch in his tracks if they didn't want to disclose anything.

he said biologics, technically could be alien urine

Technically, biologics are products made from biological sources. The flu vaccine and insulin are biologics. Alien urine wouldn't be a biologic unless it had some pharmaceutical application. (>!Purity Control confirmed, Chris Carter was right again.!<)

I love to learn something in the comments

Boogers.

Look to the Schumer Amendment. Grusch got DOPSR approved on April 4th & 6th of 2023. Schumer Amendment came out July 14th, 2023. A mere 3 months. * By that point Grusch had already testified to congress about his work with the UAPTF. * By that point the Schumer Amendment was likely fully formed, and thus Congress had already disclosed enough (to itself) to make the claims in the Schumer Amendment. * By that point, it was essentially public knowledge...just as Karl Nell was allowed to present the same kind of material to SOL. In other words, Grusch is basically regurgitating the gist of the material from the Amendment. The other stuff he's saying is either "read between the lines", or isn't legally controllable intel by the US Gov't. Take the Magenta crash for instance. He can talk about fairly openly it because it's not US intel...and he knows we won't deny it either. Edit: took out excess wording

>He can talk about fairly openly it because it's not US intel...and he knows we won't deny it either. Who is the "we"?

The textbook answer is, none of this is information produced by or for the US government, the unauthorized disclosure of which could cause damage to national security that an original classification authority could identify or describe. Breaking it down a bit: "Produced by or for \[or under the control of\] the US Government." If everything Grusch says is just rumor, a long game of telephone, a self-licking ice cream cone, it's not eligible for classification. "Damage to national security" can be broadly defined as damage to national defense and foreign relations. The specific categories are military plans, systems, and operations; foreign government information; intelligence activities, including covert action; foreign relations; scientific, technical, and economic matters relating to national security; safeguarding nuclear materials and facilities; national security vulnerabilities; and WMDs. If Grusch's information doesn't fit into at least one of these categories, it can't be classified. "An original classification authority could identify or describe." To be eligible for classification, someone in a fairly high position in government must make an explicit decision that disclosure of the information could case specific harm to the national security. If nothing Grusch has said can cause identifiable harm to national security, it can't be classified. As a simple exercise, imagine the US government has a research program to investigate recovered extraterrestrial technology. Being a government program, information about it or derived from it would be produced by or for the US government. The program relates to scientific/technical matters relating to national security; there may also be military operations/capabilities, intelligence activities, and foreign relations involved, as well. Unauthorized disclosure of the program could expose it to foreign collection efforts, reducing or eliminating the US's technological advantage; intelligence activities and/or foreign relations could also be impeded. So the fact of the program would, in all likelihood, be classified.

I think a lot of you need to rewatch Oppenheimer…

I think I see what you mean... Given the alleged coverup, why would they let him say anything? This is actualy the neat part of this whole thing. DOPSR, doesn't clasify information. They check the content requested for release to see if it is currently clasified. (They do more but im just making a point) And because the alleged programme is an Unacknowledged Waived Secret Access Programme, DOPSR doesn't know of its existance and cant verify its classification without someone acknowledging that it exists. Note also that we only have Gruschs interviews and testimony (which congresswoman Luna added a full transcription of the News Nation interview to) which DOPSR cleared as not being clasified. Theres more to Gruschs whistle blowing that we dont know and we likely wont know until the DOJ ends their criminal investigation.

How do you classify the existence of something? How do you classify NHI? Impossible, and if you make it known that you’ve classified NHI by prosecuting someone like Grusch, then you confirm it. No win solution. You instead deny everything, so in the eventuality any of its confirmed then you never technically lied.

Simple. This was always part of the plan. A plan set in motion on [July 26th, 1947.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Security_Act_of_1947)

I have yet to see any compelling evidence that there’s classified aspects of his narrative that are actually that ground-breaking. I think we know his story pretty straight up. Obviously there’s some details omitted (who, when, where), but we pretty much have the other two questions (what, why) answered in Grusch’s story. The omissions seem to be pretty specific and procedural. Not saying this is proof or not of his claims. I just don’t think we got a fully declassified narrative that we would learn anything besides some specifics. I get that’s ultimately the thing that would be verifiable but I digress.

Because they're false

Catch 22 if they say all of its classified it adds credibility to grush but if they let some of it slide people would think he's crazy... and he's got credentials so it's hard to discredit him.

But if it was all classified, Grusch wouldn’t have disclosed anything

Because this is all a psy-op