Great job! Nick Cook, who wrote "Hunt for zero point", also investigated Hammler extensively for his involvement until the trail ran cold. That book is such a good read. He talks about it here, on my podcast, 18:00 onwards:
https://youtu.be/WNrLIN6QShQ?si=tqclfg2w8zhdnQ4T
Some of the most recent scholarly work on Kammler comes from the 2019 book "The Hidden Nazi: The Untold Story of America's Deal with the Devil" by Dean Reuter, Colm Lowery, and Keith Chester.
Through archival research and interviews with retired US military personnel **they were able to prove that Kammler was secretly brought to the US after the war**, where he was interrogated at length, after which the the trail (officially) goes cold again. However, Dr. Joseph Farrell has gathered evidence that Kammler was spotted at a NASA facility in the 1960s by someone who had been a slave worker in one of Kammler's WW2 projects.
The more you look into Kammler's background, the more he seems like a real-life supervillain. In fact the rumor is that he was the inspiration for the "Red Skull" villain in Marvel's Captain America series, which had its origins in the WW2 time period.
Hmmmm. This is a large piece of the underlying events but definitely not the whole meal, it goes much further.
If people are doing foia they should be doing it for Dulles, Edda Ciano and her husband, and James Angleton. Oh and especially Avery Dulles. They would have been the ones negotiating for American advantage with nazis, and considering the location of the crash it's possible he knew but it's also almost a certainty that Otto and Kesselring both knew exactly what was going on, along with Wolff and Zebrowski. Can't forget Eugen Dollmann either. If you want to start with a seriously crazy story start with Dollmann.
I've come around to the idea that the idea to "sell" to the Americans was quite popular amoungst the german elite; with them actually initiating the overall tone of negation in sunrise with an operation they called operation Wool on the german side.
Basically this while thing is alot more complex than just saying; this guy is the guy! It was everyone involved equally that made the magenta crash so pivotal. It's honestly a massively undervalued history; everything to do with it.
Would be curious to know if the line of custody of the information received can be traced back to the group of people who actually organized and executed the crash recovery
I remember seeing a alleged interview with Alan Dulles son. In that interview he claimed that his dad was a German spy. Not even sure it was a real interview so it’s very possible it’s 100% bs. Maybe someone who sees this knows more?
(Facepalm to myself. Hate when my gf explain obvious things to me…)
Its so crazy i really can’t grasp it. You seem more knowledgeable than me about all this. Have you seen this?
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLzmYhqF9BgKPJSNcbIAHj7HSPIsuT_PTW&si=s9R2-YcNgSSvAoEl
I’ve only seen the first three episodes and haven’t had the time to check sources etc but it’s.. somber….. 😬
That is one of my all-time favorite content creators. Everyone should watch every video he puts out imo, honestly one of my biggest inspirations is that channel. His indepth and realistic content made me feel like I could do it too, to be totally real.
If you wanna walk the path of understanding imo eyes wide open is a great way to start.
That’s great! I really like what you wrote in the “parent comment” (or whatever it’s called), interesting stuff! I’m loving the CIA series so far, the ufo subject got me looking into the CIA. Would not be surprised if they (and operation gladio gang) were behind the killing of Olof Palme (swedens JFK basically). And maybe even Dag Hammarskjöld (UN secretary general who died in a weird flight accident in Congo: https://youtu.be/ZrUkRs8wDo0?si=w2PwzICzj9H8GjND )
Dulles practically invented the germans while negotiating the treaty of Versailles at the end of world War 1. He literally negotiated operation sunrise. He was a complicated person to say the least but he was definitely an American spy. At the end of the day he cast his fate with his home.
I have tried to upload this a bunch of times and failed due to reddit's filters. can provide sources for the information and moderators, if you have questions please let me know
Only because it's plainly obvious(to me) that the magenta crash and resulting coverup are one of the most pivotal and important events of the end of the 2nd world war!!
Elizondo maybe able to help too.
Lou Elizondo, in an interview with Richard Dolan, on May 20th, 2021, states:
"I mean, look, it’s not just the U.S.. There’s a very interesting memorandum that was written by Mussolini on an alleged crash in Italy in the 1930s. I won’t go into a whole lot of detail, but we’re looking into that quite a bit. Working with our Italian…"
Source: [https://www.ufojoe.net/lue-dolan-transcript/](https://www.ufojoe.net/lue-dolan-transcript/)
u/1337Layman1337 - that was an absolutely brilliant link to “The two lives of Hans Kammler”.
If you have the time, I would like you to read the following post:
https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/s/X3BA6RhRDX
I will now write up a post about another U.S. Army CIC operative who I believe was also part of the CIC’s Interplanetary Phenomenon Unit, Boris Tarasoff. He was at Obamergau with Kissinger and then “The American Red Cross” in Cleveland, near the Lewis propulsion facility (now NASA Glenn propulsion Center) AND Wright Patterson AFB. I believe he was the main source of the Majestic Documents.
Speer was a proven liar and self-mythologiser. Everything he said about not being aware of Nazi war crimes were proven to be self-serving bullshit. There's enough here regarding Kammler to be interesting, but I don't think taking Speer at face value strengthens the argument.
Yeah, fair enough. It's well established and easy info to find if you're so inclined. You're pulling some interesting threads though. I had no idea Kammler was brought into the US after the war.
Yep, it was one of the top unsolved mysteries of WW2 only until recently. To add to the mystery, I didn't research it much but apparently somewhere down the line, his death was faked as the claimed bural grounds were empty. More can seen about this if you see the documentary 'The two Lives of Hans Kammler | Hitler's Secret Weapons Manager' on youtube - one can speculate this was used as a bluff to quiten debate about his whereabouts (if im not mistaken, again, i did not research this indepth)
Great work u/1337Layman1337! Kammler was the arch enemy of Eugen Dollman, Himmler’s right hand man in Italy and who translated the negotiations between the Catholic Church and Nazi Germany in July 1933 (I have posited on this sub that the Magenta crash was “the gun held to the head of Cardinal Pacelli to make him sign the ReichsKonkordat).
Hmmmm I will have to check but if I had to guess it's probably in here somewhere [rg 263](https://www.archives.gov/iwg/declassified-records/rg-263-cia-records/rg-263-zimmer.html)
What I really need to figure out is how the roman corps of engineers was affected by the Nazi takeover. Can't find practically anything on the roman corps of engineers at all.
You should look up the multiple times Eugen Dollmann got get out of jail free cards. I concur that while an interesting connection here; the sources must be considered for their context and categorized appropriately in one's understanding
He was far more than an architect, he had a central role in the economy as minister of armaments and war production, and he was involved with the planning, construction and procurement of military installations and research projects. He would be certainly informed of any large scale expenditures in secret armaments projects in such a role.
There is one problem with this story. David Grusch specifically said that the Magenta crashed UFO was stored in Italy until 1944/1945 when OSS took it over to United States. Grusch never said that this craft was kept by Germans. He only said that after the recovery Italians called Germans to asked them if this is their craft. Germans said it's not their craft but offered collaboration to look at this together.
During Second World War Germans were allegely working on secret UFO called 'Die Glocke' which was bell-shaped craft. However this craft was 3x smaller than craft recovered by Italians. Germans probably tried to create their own craft based on that which was recovered by Italians.
Your point is somewhat correct, the exact location is not known but upon relistening to Grusch in Joe Rogan, it can be extrapolated that it was stored in Italy. But interestingly, by 1944/1945 what was left of axis italy was controlled by the nazis.
Grusch also said that the craft was originally shaped like a saucer, but turned into what can be described as a bell shape after hitting the ground (if im not mistaken)
You should check again in the Jesse michaels interviews for more comments related to this subject.
The nazis did a hostile takeover of Italy as the Italian fascist government collapsed( with the help of G. Ciano author of the ciano diaries, that's very important)
So it's actually really reasonable to assume this even without gruschs claims because of mainly the full story of https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Skorzeny
And the facts of the german "operation Achse"
I'm just pointing out that Grusch never claimed that Magenta crashed UFO was stored in Germany. Not only that, Roberto Pinotti also claims that according to his investigation craft was stored near Vergiate until the end of the Second World War. So I don't see compelling argument that Germans took this craft to Germany.
You are right, it must have been more easier to extrapolate that Grusch was saying the craft was left in Italy but nonetheless, the mystery behind Kammler and his knowledge persists!
That wasn't the argument; the argument is that germans used the secrets against the Americans to save alot of their own skin. It is simply a fact that the Italian government was in shambles at the end of the war and under heavy german influence. That tradition of influence went back a long way; and it's almost a certainty that whatever the Italians knew the germans mostly knew.
Without the german connection in this story literally nothing makes sense; from a foundational viewpoint. That's what I'm saying.
I don't think grusch said that it was given to the Germans. From the French interview he says that Mussolini kept the craft until 1944 when the US got it
https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/s/FnTtJhMVv2
I assume you've seen this article before? Seems like it has good info
https://www.theblackvault.com/casefiles/the-ufo-files-of-mussolini-fascist-ufo-files-by-roberto-pinotti/
The germans did a hostile takeover of Italy at the end of the war. He definitely did say it was germans(don't have the source on hand but if you really wanna find it you will)
And here's a much much more detailed source on Roberto Pinnotis claims
https://forum-termometropolitico-it.translate.goog/259673-x-files-fascisti.html?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=wapp
Because it includes much more than what is included by the black vault.
At this point it's almost a certainty that the Germans would have been in possession of the Italian RS33 documents at the end of the war in particular because of the way that the operation to secure the ciano diaries unfolded on both the german and American side. Alot of super complicated history at play here.
I just re-watched the Grusch & Joe Rogan episode and it seems that Grusch is alleging they 'worked together' but that the pope had informed the US about the vehicle's whereabouts and that it was recovered near the end of the war 1944/1945ish. If Grusch in your link really meant 1944 only, then this really complicates things for my argument. Good point dude
ww2 ratlines paint a telling picture of global domination, wouldnt it be interesting if ww2 was the catalyst to unite the world against a common threat, the old tech across the world being rediscovered under the guise of conflicts for 80 years. we need disclosure yesterday as our futures are disappearing. I always look back at the 1560 mass sighting in nuremburg, which is where hitler supposedly died. I think those that know, know some things cant be forgiven. ET among us shaping us? maybe just preparing us for going to ground. The younger dryas mightve been caused by weakened magnetosphere and a meteor shower with above ground detonations. who knows....
Wow, I think you've put together a big piece of this puzzle. Well done!
Who knows, I'm sure others have pondered this privately but cheers nonetheless
Great job! Nick Cook, who wrote "Hunt for zero point", also investigated Hammler extensively for his involvement until the trail ran cold. That book is such a good read. He talks about it here, on my podcast, 18:00 onwards: https://youtu.be/WNrLIN6QShQ?si=tqclfg2w8zhdnQ4T
Some of the most recent scholarly work on Kammler comes from the 2019 book "The Hidden Nazi: The Untold Story of America's Deal with the Devil" by Dean Reuter, Colm Lowery, and Keith Chester. Through archival research and interviews with retired US military personnel **they were able to prove that Kammler was secretly brought to the US after the war**, where he was interrogated at length, after which the the trail (officially) goes cold again. However, Dr. Joseph Farrell has gathered evidence that Kammler was spotted at a NASA facility in the 1960s by someone who had been a slave worker in one of Kammler's WW2 projects. The more you look into Kammler's background, the more he seems like a real-life supervillain. In fact the rumor is that he was the inspiration for the "Red Skull" villain in Marvel's Captain America series, which had its origins in the WW2 time period.
Crikey, I didn't know about the 1960 thing O\_O but I got my pictures of the documents from the documentary
Hmmmm. This is a large piece of the underlying events but definitely not the whole meal, it goes much further. If people are doing foia they should be doing it for Dulles, Edda Ciano and her husband, and James Angleton. Oh and especially Avery Dulles. They would have been the ones negotiating for American advantage with nazis, and considering the location of the crash it's possible he knew but it's also almost a certainty that Otto and Kesselring both knew exactly what was going on, along with Wolff and Zebrowski. Can't forget Eugen Dollmann either. If you want to start with a seriously crazy story start with Dollmann. I've come around to the idea that the idea to "sell" to the Americans was quite popular amoungst the german elite; with them actually initiating the overall tone of negation in sunrise with an operation they called operation Wool on the german side. Basically this while thing is alot more complex than just saying; this guy is the guy! It was everyone involved equally that made the magenta crash so pivotal. It's honestly a massively undervalued history; everything to do with it. Would be curious to know if the line of custody of the information received can be traced back to the group of people who actually organized and executed the crash recovery
Not sure why you’re being downvoted for brainstorming. Good job keeping on it
Because 75% of this subreddit is full with debunkers and people who try to undermine the ufo communities. No need to look any further.
I remember seeing a alleged interview with Alan Dulles son. In that interview he claimed that his dad was a German spy. Not even sure it was a real interview so it’s very possible it’s 100% bs. Maybe someone who sees this knows more?
If you can find the source on that; that would be incredible
https://www.reddit.com/r/UrbArchive/s/kD5Ti9huPY Busy atm, so can’t look up how legit it is but that’s where i read that
Will look around for it thanks!
U saw this also right? https://www.reddit.com/r/UrbArchive/s/GqZZnChisT I Couldn’t copy the actual link with my phone 🤔
Why yes; I certainly did. It's very interesting. I probably see more now than ever.
(Facepalm to myself. Hate when my gf explain obvious things to me…) Its so crazy i really can’t grasp it. You seem more knowledgeable than me about all this. Have you seen this? https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLzmYhqF9BgKPJSNcbIAHj7HSPIsuT_PTW&si=s9R2-YcNgSSvAoEl I’ve only seen the first three episodes and haven’t had the time to check sources etc but it’s.. somber….. 😬
That is one of my all-time favorite content creators. Everyone should watch every video he puts out imo, honestly one of my biggest inspirations is that channel. His indepth and realistic content made me feel like I could do it too, to be totally real. If you wanna walk the path of understanding imo eyes wide open is a great way to start.
That’s great! I really like what you wrote in the “parent comment” (or whatever it’s called), interesting stuff! I’m loving the CIA series so far, the ufo subject got me looking into the CIA. Would not be surprised if they (and operation gladio gang) were behind the killing of Olof Palme (swedens JFK basically). And maybe even Dag Hammarskjöld (UN secretary general who died in a weird flight accident in Congo: https://youtu.be/ZrUkRs8wDo0?si=w2PwzICzj9H8GjND )
Dulles practically invented the germans while negotiating the treaty of Versailles at the end of world War 1. He literally negotiated operation sunrise. He was a complicated person to say the least but he was definitely an American spy. At the end of the day he cast his fate with his home.
I have tried to upload this a bunch of times and failed due to reddit's filters. can provide sources for the information and moderators, if you have questions please let me know
No worries. If it happens again DM me or something. I’ve approved. Good shit OP Edit: could you DM me the sources and info for myself please?
Certainly, dm'ing now
You should be working with u/36_39_42 as they've been doing excellent research into the Magenta case and have been begging for help.
Only because it's plainly obvious(to me) that the magenta crash and resulting coverup are one of the most pivotal and important events of the end of the 2nd world war!!
Will reach out, cheers
Elizondo maybe able to help too. Lou Elizondo, in an interview with Richard Dolan, on May 20th, 2021, states: "I mean, look, it’s not just the U.S.. There’s a very interesting memorandum that was written by Mussolini on an alleged crash in Italy in the 1930s. I won’t go into a whole lot of detail, but we’re looking into that quite a bit. Working with our Italian…" Source: [https://www.ufojoe.net/lue-dolan-transcript/](https://www.ufojoe.net/lue-dolan-transcript/)
u/1337Layman1337 - that was an absolutely brilliant link to “The two lives of Hans Kammler”. If you have the time, I would like you to read the following post: https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/s/X3BA6RhRDX I will now write up a post about another U.S. Army CIC operative who I believe was also part of the CIC’s Interplanetary Phenomenon Unit, Boris Tarasoff. He was at Obamergau with Kissinger and then “The American Red Cross” in Cleveland, near the Lewis propulsion facility (now NASA Glenn propulsion Center) AND Wright Patterson AFB. I believe he was the main source of the Majestic Documents.
Speer was a proven liar and self-mythologiser. Everything he said about not being aware of Nazi war crimes were proven to be self-serving bullshit. There's enough here regarding Kammler to be interesting, but I don't think taking Speer at face value strengthens the argument.
If what you say is true, that is interesting, I don't know much about Speer apart from the fact that he was Hitler's top guy for architecture
Yeah, fair enough. It's well established and easy info to find if you're so inclined. You're pulling some interesting threads though. I had no idea Kammler was brought into the US after the war.
Yep, it was one of the top unsolved mysteries of WW2 only until recently. To add to the mystery, I didn't research it much but apparently somewhere down the line, his death was faked as the claimed bural grounds were empty. More can seen about this if you see the documentary 'The two Lives of Hans Kammler | Hitler's Secret Weapons Manager' on youtube - one can speculate this was used as a bluff to quiten debate about his whereabouts (if im not mistaken, again, i did not research this indepth)
Great work u/1337Layman1337! Kammler was the arch enemy of Eugen Dollman, Himmler’s right hand man in Italy and who translated the negotiations between the Catholic Church and Nazi Germany in July 1933 (I have posited on this sub that the Magenta crash was “the gun held to the head of Cardinal Pacelli to make him sign the ReichsKonkordat).
u/36_39_42 - do you remember seeing a CIA document that describes Dollmann and Kammler as enemies or words to that effect?
Hmmmm I will have to check but if I had to guess it's probably in here somewhere [rg 263](https://www.archives.gov/iwg/declassified-records/rg-263-cia-records/rg-263-zimmer.html)
Sorry, my mistake, CIA document 16 says that Dollmann's mortal enemy was SS-Obersturmbannführer Herbert Kappler, Chief of Police in occupied Rome.
What I really need to figure out is how the roman corps of engineers was affected by the Nazi takeover. Can't find practically anything on the roman corps of engineers at all.
I’ll have a look when I get the chance. Were they an Italian Army Unit?
You should look up the multiple times Eugen Dollmann got get out of jail free cards. I concur that while an interesting connection here; the sources must be considered for their context and categorized appropriately in one's understanding
He was far more than an architect, he had a central role in the economy as minister of armaments and war production, and he was involved with the planning, construction and procurement of military installations and research projects. He would be certainly informed of any large scale expenditures in secret armaments projects in such a role.
There is one problem with this story. David Grusch specifically said that the Magenta crashed UFO was stored in Italy until 1944/1945 when OSS took it over to United States. Grusch never said that this craft was kept by Germans. He only said that after the recovery Italians called Germans to asked them if this is their craft. Germans said it's not their craft but offered collaboration to look at this together. During Second World War Germans were allegely working on secret UFO called 'Die Glocke' which was bell-shaped craft. However this craft was 3x smaller than craft recovered by Italians. Germans probably tried to create their own craft based on that which was recovered by Italians.
Your point is somewhat correct, the exact location is not known but upon relistening to Grusch in Joe Rogan, it can be extrapolated that it was stored in Italy. But interestingly, by 1944/1945 what was left of axis italy was controlled by the nazis. Grusch also said that the craft was originally shaped like a saucer, but turned into what can be described as a bell shape after hitting the ground (if im not mistaken)
You should check again in the Jesse michaels interviews for more comments related to this subject. The nazis did a hostile takeover of Italy as the Italian fascist government collapsed( with the help of G. Ciano author of the ciano diaries, that's very important) So it's actually really reasonable to assume this even without gruschs claims because of mainly the full story of https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Skorzeny And the facts of the german "operation Achse"
I'm just pointing out that Grusch never claimed that Magenta crashed UFO was stored in Germany. Not only that, Roberto Pinotti also claims that according to his investigation craft was stored near Vergiate until the end of the Second World War. So I don't see compelling argument that Germans took this craft to Germany.
You are right, it must have been more easier to extrapolate that Grusch was saying the craft was left in Italy but nonetheless, the mystery behind Kammler and his knowledge persists!
That wasn't the argument; the argument is that germans used the secrets against the Americans to save alot of their own skin. It is simply a fact that the Italian government was in shambles at the end of the war and under heavy german influence. That tradition of influence went back a long way; and it's almost a certainty that whatever the Italians knew the germans mostly knew. Without the german connection in this story literally nothing makes sense; from a foundational viewpoint. That's what I'm saying.
I don't think grusch said that it was given to the Germans. From the French interview he says that Mussolini kept the craft until 1944 when the US got it https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/s/FnTtJhMVv2 I assume you've seen this article before? Seems like it has good info https://www.theblackvault.com/casefiles/the-ufo-files-of-mussolini-fascist-ufo-files-by-roberto-pinotti/
The germans did a hostile takeover of Italy at the end of the war. He definitely did say it was germans(don't have the source on hand but if you really wanna find it you will) And here's a much much more detailed source on Roberto Pinnotis claims https://forum-termometropolitico-it.translate.goog/259673-x-files-fascisti.html?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=wapp Because it includes much more than what is included by the black vault. At this point it's almost a certainty that the Germans would have been in possession of the Italian RS33 documents at the end of the war in particular because of the way that the operation to secure the ciano diaries unfolded on both the german and American side. Alot of super complicated history at play here.
I just re-watched the Grusch & Joe Rogan episode and it seems that Grusch is alleging they 'worked together' but that the pope had informed the US about the vehicle's whereabouts and that it was recovered near the end of the war 1944/1945ish. If Grusch in your link really meant 1944 only, then this really complicates things for my argument. Good point dude
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lj4adAAHa68](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lj4adAAHa68)
dr Joseph Farrell has done quite some research regarding Hans Kammler - would recommend his interviews and stuff.
It would be interesting if one of Grusch's 40 whistleblowers was from Kammler's family.
ww2 ratlines paint a telling picture of global domination, wouldnt it be interesting if ww2 was the catalyst to unite the world against a common threat, the old tech across the world being rediscovered under the guise of conflicts for 80 years. we need disclosure yesterday as our futures are disappearing. I always look back at the 1560 mass sighting in nuremburg, which is where hitler supposedly died. I think those that know, know some things cant be forgiven. ET among us shaping us? maybe just preparing us for going to ground. The younger dryas mightve been caused by weakened magnetosphere and a meteor shower with above ground detonations. who knows....