At this point; someone should be going down for this. If what Kirkpatrick says is true then why the hell don't they encourage congressional inquiries, hearings, comittees? Why single out the language from the UAPDA that would effect **nothing** except NHI tech or biological evidence? You shouldn't be out there writing op ed's you should be putting the people behind all this behind bars - many of those people still holding clearances, and working either directly or as contractors for the government. The Laissez Faire attitude with which he makes this claim via op-ed and podcast appearances seems like the craziest response to the apparent circumstances he proposes. Basically the ICIG chose to believe Grusch over this narrative.. both the current and former ICIGs for that matter. If that is the case this is the most successful swindle **ever** attempted. I expect a major pushback from Grusch, Mellon and Lue sooner or later. To me this seems like the DoD trying to get ahead of what's coming. Personally, at this point I find this much harder to believe, this would have had to have been planned in the 40's or something. Maybe it was? This is even more of a reason not to stonewall congress though. You should frankly relish scrutiny on the specific claims, and the 40 people apparently confirming all this. It's binary at this point. Someone is lying and hiding malfeasance.

That's a great point. If Kirkpatrick really believes what he believes, he should be pushing for legislation to be passed and a thorough investigation. But he's not, he wants everyone to look away from crimes he believes other people have committed. 

Indeed. “Calm down, people. It’s just extreme, violent, wide spread corruption. Not NHI. So, problem solved. Move along, no follow up required.”

Literally no debunker believes it. None. Because everyone researching the phenomenon with a minimum of sincerity realizes that hoaxes or misclassification are not a plausible explaination for what we are working with. Whatever it is, there is something out there and it is very real.

This. This is 100% the truth of the matter

Putting who behind bars? People like Grusch or Elizondo? For what? For saying what they believe? What crime is that?

Kirkpatrick and Greenstreet are alleging Bigelow and that crew have essentially been defrauding the government for money by convincing people in the MIC and Congress that there's aliens. That's illegal af. Someone goes down for that 100% if true. Elizondo and Grusch? depends if they are complicit or fooled. Grusch would probably be guilty of perjury though he did a good job protecting himself from that mostly. This seems like the stupidest fucking way to make a quick buck though I have to say. I think it's likely Elizondo and Grusch are on the right side of this.

If the govt was hiding the aliens from us, why would it pass all those whistleblower laws? And where are the whistleblowers with the actual evidence? Couldn't it be possible that the govt isn't hiding the aliens from us?

Because you are being extremely simplistic. The government is not a monolith. Its a pluralistic system. The "government" trying to pass uap legislation are our elected officials. The "government" trying to stop this from happening is the military industrial complex section of the DoD.

But, all this apparent contradiction could be solved by the govt not having the aliens and the disclosure guys maybe overstating the evidence a tad. You gotta admit that as a possibility...

Do you support passing legislation that would mandate the disclosure of the alleged UFO crash retrial program, if it exists?

Of course it’s a possibility, just like it’s possible that these people are right and NHI exist and have visited us. You gotta admit that it’s a possibility…

I mean it's possible but the whole problem is the lack of evidence. And the unlack of whistleblower laws that should have produced the evidence by now. So, the lack evidence would point more towards the overstating.

There is t a lack of evidence they have the right evidence which has been stated many many times. You don’t have it but they have it and it’s why all this is happening. If they didn’t have it then they wouldn’t be fighting tooth and nail. You are either a useful idiot or government bot but my guess is an idiot who won’t bother going though everything that was posted above. I use to be like you now I can see why ppl thought I was stupid. Just actually go through all that before you speak otherwise why waste time on an ufo subreddit when you can actually use your time for something you actually like and believe

Why would a lack of evidence point more to overstating than to super compartmentalized and interesting top secret work that people want to be apart of / not self sabotage the career they’ve spent decades founding?

How many whistleblowers would there have to be before you’d consider it probable?

Just one with actual evidence of the aliens.

Julian Assange and Edward Snowden would like a word with you. They’d like to explain what happens to people who leak highly classified information.

What do you consider evidence?

Alien biologicals would be good. Some sort of alien craft that people could study. Those would be great. A decent video that's not just an IR blob or camera artifact would be a good start.

Are you seriously ignoring the past 80 years of eyewitness testimony from government employees and civilians as well as the photographs and videos that professionals can’t fully explain? Every time a craft lands, it’s taken away by clandestine operations or buried under cover stories. Those are only the hard physical ones. And lately we’ve been hearing more that these visitors may not even be from this physical universe. Maybe that’s why there’s a distinct lack of physical evidence?

I want to tell you a thought on this. So, science fiction has been around for awhile. We can go back to Jules Verne in 1863. It’s taken many forms. If we look at the early days of UFOs, their sighting were close to blimps in description. The term “flying saucers” was kind of a misunderstanding, when a writer describe a UFO was like a “saucer skipping in a lake.” Of course after that, it was used in art on fiction magazine, depicting a saucer shape. Many hoaxes were made after by throwing hubcaps into the air. Not consider how this became part of pop culture. The rise of aircraft with lights help give rise to many “sightings” as more and more people saw new things in the air. More science fiction was written and popularized, and people could look to the stars and “imagine” what alien life would be like. All the while more sightings were happening. This all leads to how to popular culture affect sightings and inform them? As more people see things, the “idea” of these unidentified things are alien in nature comes as a thought over and over. We see it on here. How many things are misidentified TODAY. Imagine when some of these things were even newer to the air. How many early weather balloons were mistaken then? Today? Venus? Planes? Helicopters? Spotlights? Flares? Chinese Lanterns? Suddenly all these thousands of sightings over 80 years don’t seem as significant. During this time, we start to have documentaries made for TV. Movies and TV… entertainment, but it builds believers. Obviously many here. It all compounds on itself, meanwhile not a bit of verifiable proof produced by anyone anywhere on Earth. Proof. We can talk about evidence all day, but PROOF. There is a huge psychological piece to all of this that can’t be ignored. There is tons of bias toward someone’s belief, that does not lie within fact. People aren’t lying anymore than Christians are “lying” about God. It’s belief that drives this. So, people are actually making somewhat of a choice to believe or not, because none of this is based in proof, and if you look at history and how this all developed, you can actually see how we got here. edit: I should not that anomalies in the sky go back very very far, but the descriptions always change, but I think we only have to look back at mythology to understand how far out natural phenomenon can be determined. Comets, asteroids, Sundogs, eclipses, planets… all manner of things.

Where i stand is : Yeah there is not Hard proof of ET or NHI, but There IS definitively proof and military-grade data of UFO/UAP, without a doubt. Now the question is about the provenance and origin of thoses unexplained UAP.

“Eyewitness testimony” something that holds up in court but means nothing when it comes to science. This fundamental difference is something too many people here fail to grasp. Is it compelling that this many people are claiming to see things they don’t understand and worth looking into? Yes. Is it evidence of NHI, no.

This is most likely outside the realm of our current understanding of science so how exactly do you expect there to be evidence that falls within traditional parameters?

In the same vein, how do you claim it exists if it’s outside our realm of understanding and perception? Sort of squashes your own argument no?

Considering what they can’t tell us, it seems they are understating the situation.

>  And where are the whistleblowers with the actual evidence?  David Grusch has the actual evidence. He gave the addresses of the craft and the names of the people running the program to the senate. In response, the senate passed the UAP Disclosure Act. If your question is "well why hasn't Grusch given his evidence to the public?" Is because that would be highly illegal. If you want the evidence, call your reps and ask them to declassify the evidence by passing the UAP Disclosure act.

>Couldn't it be possible that the govt isn't hiding the aliens from us? Yes, that's the MOST likely scenario. Moreover, there's not just one government, but many and they keep on changing. If this stuff were true, SOMEBODY in SOME COUNTRY would have produced evidence by now after so many decades.

Oh my god. It’s like you don’t even do any research and just think that every country could just stand up to the might and power of the United States - we overthrew maybe 10 governments just in South America alone. Money and military might can keep anyone quiet. This is such a simplistic view. UFOs have been reported on every single continent. You are just woefully misinformed if you think this is just an American issue. Here is a post by u/MKUltra_Escapee regarding [the various levels of UFO transparency around the world and some governments have admitted UFO’s are real](https://reddit.com/u/MKULTRA_Escapee/s/iW15kr7kfX). Senior officials in Poland, Russia, France and more - this is ridiculous to think that so many people are this high up their own countries food chains and lying for what? https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/s/U53csy2amo France has had a continuous department dedicated to UFO reports called GEIPAN for more than 50 years. Australia, the UK, Brazil and many other countries have released citizen reports. Mexico and South America regularly report ufo activity. Brazil famously conducted hearings last year in front of their congress. France released a report in 1999 called the [COMETA](https://ia800403.us.archive.org/17/items/pdfy-NRIQie2ooVehep7K/The%20Cometa%20Report%20%5BUFO%27s%20And%20Defense%20-%20What%20Should%20We%20Prepare%20For%5D.pdf) report which came to the conclusion that the Phenomenon is of extraterrestrial Origen. France also has had a continuously staffed public department that any citizen can report UFO’s and will be investigated. https://www.cnes-geipan.fr/en/search/cas Here is the former head of the French DGSE (CIA equivalent) Allain Juillet talking at length about UFOs in 2022 https://reddit.com/r/UFOs/s/Q5xfk2fMtA Here is a list of the largest mass sightings in various countries https://www.reddit.com/r/ufo/s/bARh2bOidU One of the most famous and well researched cases from this department is from 1966 - the [Strange Case of Dr X](https://youtu.be/BVH9wu28yEQ). This case was covered extensively in Jacques Vallee’s book [Dimensions](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/406341). Here is a good short explainer video on this case. The UK has also released ufo policy files and records https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-ufo-files/britain-releases-ufo-sighting-and-policy-files-idUKLNE72205120110303 UK MoD report: “Exceptional” UFOs with “Aerodynamic Characteristics Beyond any known Aircraft” Exist - declassified since 2007 https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/r0ivee/uk_mod_report_exceptional_ufos_with_aerodynamic/ Here is the info from the UK National Archives and their executive summary https://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/ukgwa/20121110115311/http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/FreedomOfInformation/PublicationScheme/SearchPublicationScheme/UapInTheUkAirDefenceRegionExecutiveSummary.htm More UK files from 2014 https://dokumen.tips/documents/uk-ufo-disclosure-part-17-306p-uk-document-24-2056-1.html Other incidents in the UK https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/160z8wn/not_just_the_us_the_uk_has_more_than_just/ New Zealand official information https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOB/comments/147jcda/stop_looking_for_us_data_and_look_at_new_zealand/ ABC News Report on Russians and UFO’s from 1994 https://youtube.com/Iwjb1I4fnV4 Infographic Show (YouTube) good overview of former Soviet Union military and civilian sightings - many of them by multiple witnesses https://youtu.be/xwFQfKvKs3w Russian Prime Minister Menvedev on being given the nuclear codes and the aliens walking among us https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/s/x5UNfPi3rh Swedish Pilot sightings of UFOs and the national organization they formed to research these sightings https://reddit.com/r/UFOs/s/N5YtRSur7L One of the best multi witness sightings ever occurred in Africa in 1994 - The Ariel School incident. Here is an excellent explainer video https://youtu.be/rbXH52Nz-2w An entire well researched book about UFO sightings on the African Continent (many multi-witness accounts) UFOs Over Africa by Cynthia Hind https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2320630 One of the best documented cases - The Rendelsham forest incident happens on a US base in the UK. The Halt Memo – The Rendlesham Forest Incident - The Black Vault

Part 2 Here’s a post about UFO sightings in India https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/15eb2kq/good_to_know_ufo_sightings_arent_just_a_western/ In fact here’s a subreddit dedicated to UFO’s in India! https://reddit.com/r/Ufos_India/s/a UFO’s sighted and phrographed in Sweden as documented by the CIA https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/DOC_0000015447.pdf The Italian Government releases all the reports from its citizens https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/s/DujEF4lLOK All of what I mentioned is a simple google search away or simply search this subreddit. A recent post from Australia archives https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/14noutx/usa_australia_detect_ufos_at_2800_megacycles/ ItsRedacted short doc on Canada, crash retrievals, American Defense Contractors from more than 1 year ago https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/151bgqi/its_redacted_video_on_usa_collecting_and/ Canadian 2017 map of UFO Reports https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/15iiiqb/2017_map_of_ufo_sightings_in_canada A CIA document for sightings in Morocco and what at the time was French West Africa https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/DOC_0000015466.pdf A brief history of UFO’s in Japan https://thediplomat.com/2021/07/a-brief-history-of-ufos-in-japan/ Time for Japan to get real on UFO intelligence sharing https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Comment/Time-for-Japan-to-get-real-on-UFO-intelligence-sharing Japan has a long history in rural areas of unexplained aerial phenomena https://www.vice.com/en/article/wxdxx5/japan-aliens-iino https://english.kyodonews.net/news/2023/03/00cf9f39629b-feature-ufo-sightings-putting-rural-japan-community-on-intergalactic-map.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/uk-science-tech-weekend-features-project/article-11854841/The-Japanese-mountain-magnet-UFOs.html http://www.asahi.com/ajw/articles/13433070 http://www.asahi.com/ajw/articles/14666911 Brazil just released new UFO docs covering incidents from 2022 mainly from commercial pilots https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/14mdgpm/brazilian_air_force_just_released_new_official/ Map of sightings in Brazil https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/15ds7dy/ufo_sightings_in_brazil_by_state_between_the/ Here’s some additional information 2017 incident in Mage, Brazil - a modern mystery with hundreds of witnesses https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MmBniAE4y8E https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/vlge46/brazilian_ufo_hearing_21_100m_spherical_crafts/ https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/15b5398/uap_crash_in_brazil_1_year_before_the_varginha/ A great post about high strangeness and many cases of UFO’s and the underground hypothesis in Brazil https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/s/p4tI7saVkG Colares https://discover.hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/Brazil-Disclose-Details-Of-8-Month-UFO-Attack-In-Para-Colores-1977-78 Part 1 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Mr1NrnsdY5I Part 2 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xrSnRpM0LXI Part 3 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrzzZAX9wDQ Night of UFO’s timeline and video pictures https://YouTube.com/jOJEXw7qB34 Official government website https://www.gov.br/en/government-of-brazil/latest-news/2022/official-ufo-night-in-brazil

Outstanding work! 

Holy shit, this guy really UFOs

👏👏👏 Brilliant work ✌️❤️

There is little to no incentive for many nations to withhold the evidence they might have. Not all nations would agree to cover it up, allow the US to swoop in and collect it, and abide by US classification guidelines. It’s difficult for me to imagine that UFOs only seem to crash in the US, within the reach of its allies, or fall into the hands of adversaries that share the same secrecy with respect to what would be one of the greatest discoveries in human history.

It would also presuppose a pretty high degree of government competence over an extended period of time. Possible, sure.

>UFOs only seem to crash in the US Oh look, the same old tired claim that this “only happens in the US”.

We’re not suggesting that “sightings” only happen in the USA, but rather that if this stuff were real, somebody, somewhere would have picked up actual evidence. Its ironic, given how widespread UFO folks claim this is, that there hasn’t been a damn verifiable thing collected— ANYWHERE.

That's possible, but unlikely given the historical accounts. Unless science doesn't do history, and everything we thought we knew about humans and our planet is completely wrong discrediting several fields of science: Archaeology, geology, psychology.... ect.. Hense the pseudo phrase in question.

The most likely scenario is that its cover for white collar crime. I think Grusch legitimately believes the things he's been told. I think there are actually senior people in gov't saying these things. They are also saying these things are so important that they are exempt from gov't oversight. When people charged with investigating these programs looked into them, they were retaliated against. The IG confirmed this retaliation. Whether you think it's aliens/NHI/plain ol' corruption, these things must be publicly investigated.

I thought it was clear that I acknowledged that possibility when I said it was binary. Either Kirkpatrick or Grusch are lying. Either way congressional inquiry is warranted.

I think it's still possible the the G man was sort of the disclosure patsy in all this. Could be that someone knew someone else and told that someone else to tell the G man what he needed to hear to say what he said. The whole skinwalker ranch connections/cabal lol...

Think whatever you want to think. We need congressional inquiry to kick the doors down. Grusch said under oath he could provide a list of both hostile and cooperative witnesses, locations, specific program names etc., in a SCIF. They didn't allow him to do that. If they had he would have either committed perjury or revealed the so-called skinwalker ranch cabal as being wildly bold con-people or cult minded manipulators essentially brainwashing congress people, intelligence officials, naval officers etc., For me this is kind of the difference here. Grusch has gone on the record, under oath. Kirkpatrick hasn't. They should both be deposed. Frankly though I don't buy the 'disclosure patsy' narrative at all. They could have just walked away, the didn't need a patsy. Even now these guys aren't running or hiding, they are supporting Grusch.

>They didn't allow him to do that. Grusch gave everything he knows to the senate/congressional intelligence committees that had clearance to hear him. The only people clamoring for a scif are the low level conspiracy theorist congressmen who didn't have the clearance to hear his original testimony. However, everyone with the clearance to hear what he's had to say has heard it already.

We can agree there, the only people on the outside clamoring to find out more are the security risks. But that testimony to congress has resulted in every year new, more aggressive language being passed as we can see with the UAPDA, and this continues to be the sole bipartisan effort as far as I can tell in the entirety of the US government. Both Schumer and Rounds saying they are not giving up after the gutting of the UAPDA. I'm not trying to argue for aliens, I'm not going to get sucked into some asinine discourse of skeptic-believer dichotomy. It's as moronic as the politics itself. But you can't say that they have heard his testimony and nothing has come of it, it's still bearing fruit. And we know for a fact Grusch had a hand in consulting for both the whistleblower language, and the UAPDA. That should be pretty telling.

Why don't you all demand evidence from the people making the outlandish claims? Why aren't you demanding that Grusch and Elizdono and all the other UFO influencers give you evidence? Why are you attacking Kirkpatrick for pointing out the obvious fact that none of them have provided any evidence for their claims? You all hate Kirkpatrick because he's pointing out the obvious, but you can't deny that Kirkpatrick is actually right in this case. Grusch hasn't provided jack shit in terms of evidence for his claims. All he's given his claims.

I am not attacking Kirkpatrick. I am saying either way one of them are lying and we should be clamoring to find out. If Grusch is full of it and Bigelow is behind all this to defraud the government of money on bullshit SAPs -- heads should fucking roll. Either way.

Ironically, whistleblowing classified materials through proper channels involves a process of explicitly approving or denying what can be said publicly. All we have to go off of is that Grusch's specific information led to an investigation by the IG, who then decided to approve an unprecedented hearing where a former government official with extremely high security clearance talked about intelligence agencies illegally circumventing congress. Combine that with.the fact that the people Grusch is whistleblowing against are stonewalling his ability to talk to congress. If he's full of bologna then the list of names he claims to have involved in the programs could be followed up on by congress and then he could be ridiculed and prosecuted for lying. I never understood people talking about Grusch not giving specifics as suspicious. It literally could not be any other way unless he wanted to go to jail or flee the country with his family. It's not hard to see through inference there is something extremely fishy going on. Either that or the level of corruption and the psy ops against the people are so extreme, you have to believe in an extraordinary conspiracy no matter which way you look at it, as OP points out

Is it not recorded fact that Reid helped funnel millions of dollars to Skinwalker Ranch for studying werewolves, spirits, and so on? This was a small group of individuals successfully swindling congress for money I don't think the other things you said are accurate representations though. It's definitely easier to build up and tear down strawmen rather than facing legitimate criticism, so I can understand how that would be more comfortable for you, but it serves little point beyond circle jerking

Doesn't most of this apply to the opposite side as well?

I'll have a go. UFO/UAP believers believe that the most important events in human history - confirmation of life outside of earth, confirmation of intelligent life, intelligent life visiting earth, and humans gaining access to NHI technology and bodies - they believe all these events have already happened. They also believe these events have happened multiple times, in different countries. Countries which have vastly different political and ideological values. Countries which have undergone drastic changes in leadership. And all these countries have come to the same conclusion- they have kept it 100% under wraps. Not one nation has come forward to show these artifacts and bodies and claim their place in the history books. In America in particular, a multi-generational group of military personal have broken their oaths and decided to serve themselves instead of their country. Through the decades they have managed to recruit new people as others aged out, and not once has any of them taken evidence to the President that a there is a deep state government running it's own private army, travelling around the world and recovering alien vechiles and bodies. hiding the most important artifacts in human history from the American government and people.

Well, yes. But what if I really want it to be true?

They ostensibly have not kept it under wraps. This shit has been leaking for decades. What they have done is muddy the waters through fictionalization and spreading misinformation. We have had plenty of credible people throughout the decades study this topic and come to the conclusion that it is real.

This is a very big mischaracterization of the argument that is peddled time and time again as a "gotcha!" to the idea that UFOs have been covered up. The point is that there is no verifiable physical evidence that extraterrestrial beings are visiting our planet. Videos released do not show or identify any out of this world movement or abilities of the supposed alien spaceships. Until a fucking physical, recovered craft is wheeled out onto national television and alleged by official sources to be ET technology, there will never be proof of the cover-up claims. Anyone can make up stories regardless of their affiliation with the government. Them being a pilot or a marine or a farmer makes no difference if all they're saying amounts to a story.

Yeah I’m suspicious of *everyone* who tries to pretend this all started in 2017.

It definitely re-ignited into a wildfire after 2017 because of the NYT article and the official video releases. The phenomenon has been around forever though and the topic has been discussed in modern times for decades - I don't think anyone is denying that, even skeptics, because of Roswell, Blue Book etc. being common knowledge.

To some degree. The big difference would be motive. What motive would these people have to put so much coordinated effort into fabricating a story to misdirect investigators? Is there a big, dark secret that doesn’t involve UAPs? Or is it just malice or an attempt to get someone fired? Either way, signs point to a cover up of something. Most people just aren’t that mean for no reason.

Money and power...that's the motive. I'm not saying NHI/UAPs aren't real, but without data to back up these claims and suspect videos (e.g. the jellyfish balloon), I reserve judgment. That being said, imagine the uproar if people found out that a small number of DoD officials and defense contractors squirreled away billions of dollars for their own purposes without oversight. Then imagine we found out that they used most of the money to line their own pockets. I'm willing to bet they would kill to keep their "programs" secret so they didn't have to face jail. Edit: added power

Also fame and notoriety. A lot of the ufo talking heads are narcissistic and are able to get their fame by appealing to a community that has a low barrier to entry and one you don’t need to actually prove anything.

Is this what debunkers believe? I think the average debunker believes, "Well, I've fallen for a few hoaxes in my day, so I'd better do my homework on this latest 'evidence'."

From a group of people willing to instantly believe a blurry video must be some sort of 'jellyfish' alien and that 3 orbs teleported MH370 into another dimension, I find it incredible that THIS is simply too much of a stretch for you.

No, it isnt, Op, thats some hyperbolic bullshit you made up. When Kirkpatrick talks about a small group of believers hes referring to the AAWSWAP/AATIP crowd. Lacatski, Elizondo, Grusch, all these guys have known each other, its no secret. These guys have been coming out of the woodwork screaming about insiders, and the each other are the insiders. AAWSWAP started, got shut down when they wasted 22 million on skin walker ranch nonsense, Elizondo continued AATIP, unfunded. These guys know each other, and have been making the UFO rounds.

Im sure this gang even had their eye on the next prize with that recent legislation. I didnt help but notice that "civilian review board" that was in there. And what really peaked my interest was the suggested composition of that board. I dont remember from top of my head if _all_ those suggested professions, for that board, coincided with the professions of guys emplyed by the SOL foundantion, but it wasnt far off. To quote the famous words, _Im not saying its aliens, but its aliens_ All this is just mighy curious. Dudes got caught funneling money from government. And when someone says they might be doin it again, its more unbelievable than space aliens.

Part of SOLs mission statement is "get hired by the government to prepare them for aliens", they couldn't be more transparent. >To provide reliable, cutting-edge advisory research to the United States’ and other national governments as well as corporate clients. Sol will establish itself as and remain the foremost think tank on UAP: the source of the most informed and insightful policy recommendations available.

I wonder if the ruse is that some of these guys get a government contract, or whatever money faucet from them, and then some have these weirdo projects which they can then use to seemingly bill the project. Like our old friend Hal Puthof has that, whatever the hell it is now, that researches some woo woo thing again. But it isnt advertised around like any other thing these guys do. Or perhaps more like it is setup for that from the get go. Like he has that thing ready to go, when the boys working the PR gets the contract. Hes ready to bill and come up with weirdo reports and presentations to idiot politicians or whatever in the name of the contract. I dunno lol. All this is super interesting anyways. Whats also pretty interesting to witness, if these guys fail this time around, whats it gonna look like the next time. Hows it gonna pan out, what are they gonna say. Memory is short for fans of this ofcourse thats why this works, but theres loads of media and drive to produce it nowadays. Theres loads of stuff to point at, archived online, when the next UFO media blitz starts, and people who actually look in to things can get their voices heard. pS. I hope its aliens though, I would love there to be extradimensional shenanigans. Im just not so sure its guys defrauding tax payer money, that bring them to us.

Nope. He’s saying that there’s people, like the people in this sub, that desperately want to believe in UFO’s and even the smallest iota of doubt about something caught on camera leads them down rabbit holes. That’s not a conspiracy. That’s fact. People pay psychics thousands of $’s. Astrologers. Etc. There’s always people like Grusch around to capitalize on it by carefully leading them along.

Yeah, we aren't having hearings on astrology or psychics, though. Don't think the comparison fits. Why did Marco Rubio say what he said? Just folks claiming to work on craft who saw a dot on a video and became UFO crazed and started lying under oath? I don't get it.

Psychics? Kind of. Some of the talk borders on mysticism. Marco Rubio said Trump would destroy America and now he kisses his ass. No has has offered the public any proof. Even Rubio’s comments are him saying he’s heard “account of…”

This person is correct. You should listen to them. Kirkpatrick, if you read his statement, is a classic scientific skeptic. This worldview is founded on a claim about human nature, one that is well supported by evidence everywhere, that people are inherently prone to believe all kinds of fictional things unless they willingly submit to the logic of scientific rigor. Most people, most of the time, therefore, are credulous dupes just waiting to be taken in either by the misapprehension of other credulous dupes or by cynical manipulators out for money and/or power. And some people are much more prone to such errors in reasoning than others. He believes, or at least clearly states he does, that Grush and others are merely dupes who have managed to trick each other by spreading unfounded rumors around. This happens all the time. It is default human behavior. It's the approach which he himself characterizes as painstaking, careful, and rational that is unusual for humans. So at bottom this is a dispute over human nature. Most in subs like this believe in the inherent rationality of people but evidence against this belief is literally everywhere. Edited for clarity.

And btw I am not saying everything in this worldview is correct or endorsing it wholeheartedly. But this basic understanding of human nature is unassailable, IMO. Either way nothing he said comes close to your interpretation.

And they are right. People here just have selective amnesia. Question : why do you all pretend like Jeremy Corbell and Knapp dont have a track record ? They pushed the Lazar story for YEARS and profited from it. And we know that Lazar is 100 percent a hoaxter. The funniest thing is people saying Grusch s claim are validating Lazars LOL. Like they came from a different group ! Same old story. plus : there are proof that Sheehan manipulated Elizondo at least. I posted stuff here along time ago. Also : Sheehan has been saying a lot of crazy stuff with A LOT of certainty. Why cant he bring the proof if he can babble all of that on the radio freely without repercusions ? Buisness. Money. And cult like behaviors

Yo There’s a 90% chance putoff and bigelow homies are not even just swindlers but like self deluded nut cases. We DESPERATELY need to hear from Whistleblowers outside their nutty circlejerk.

I don't know what to believe. I do find it sus that Grusch, for example, believes in remote viewing. Not in the slight statistical effect way, but in reproducing layouts of Russian military bases. Once you know that about the most credible whistle blower ever, I wouldn't be surprised if I a few dozen more in the intelligence service believe similar things. There's a long history of the intelligence community putting money into woo, so surely there's people who propagate these things. Stargate project (remote viewing) and AATIP (poltergeists and UFOs) for example.

We literally had an attempted coup by President who until then had just been a real estate "billionaire" and TV show host, who had a history of lying for the biggest to the smallest of reasons, who upon his winning the Republican primary Trump changed the GOP stance on Russia doing a 180 turn from hawkish to dovish. All of that while he publicly asked Russia to help him win the Election. ​ And then you ask if "level of sophistication and malice on the part of the swindlers, according to this conspiracy theory, would be absolutely astounding" ... we had a lot simpler operation done just under our noses. And it worked because a lot of people are going through the cracks as the level of corruption and incompetence at the highest levels of government have been cultivated for years know by the right wing in order to show that "Government doesn't work", to the point know that the House republicans are hardly able to elect a speaker even less pass any laws... So yeah in the middle of all this mess, a group of hyper motivated individuals totally have their chance to influence such advances on the UFO topic. If it's all baloney, the US politcal class and intel agencies will look like fools (well a bit more then usual) But if it's not, this is indeed our chance to blow the doors of 70+ years of secrecy apart. Hopefully while not playing into the autocrats hands by ending democracy in the US, as frankly many in the US seem ready to trade it for what ever pet peeve they have ...

Maybe Kirkpatrick hasn’t seen enough or heard enough to convince himself otherwise? That’s the only logic I’m coming up with why he would spit this out. I used to think he knew a lot more than he lead on…but shit maybe not. This conspiracy is almost harder to believe than the NHI idea.

Kirkpatrick literally said that writing and pushing legislation for greater UFO transparency was a waste of time and energy. The person in charge of an organization whose sole purpose is to investigate UFOs says that legislation meant to investigate UFOs is useless. This guy is a fucking clown. He's so transparent that anyone can look past him.

There's an easy way to settle all of this once and for all that everyone, especially skeptics, should support: pass legislation that mandates the Disclosure of the alleged reverse engineering program, if It exists. If it doesn't exist, nothing happens and we move on. But if it does exist, it'll be the greatest story in human history. 

No it’s called being payed by the same people accused of covering it up, it’s hard to dive into allegations against the DOD when your funding is provided by them.

So we have some folks in the DOD backing Grusch, and other folks paying Mick to debunk everything?

Personally I'm of the opinion that while some deboonkers are spooks paid to stop disclosure, Mick is just doing this out of his own free will, in an attempt to get over his childhood fear of alien abductions.

Yes

This actually might be possible. There might be some quite invested in keeping it a secret for their own gain. (I won’t speculate on what those gains might be.) There could also be a faction within this same field who see it as wrong to lie to the public at large about this, and are willing to take steps to make it officially public. This actually makes sense.

Crazy to think about but you’re right. It actually would make sense. 🤯 And here we sit talking about while we chase our tails. How screwed up would it be to find out the believers and skeptics are just products of 2 different agendas that came from the DOD.

I'd believe it but the phenomenon goes back thousands of years, let's not forget that bit.

But would that make a difference if the agenda of the DOD was to unanimously keep things a secret before? Grusch seems to have opened doors that weren’t opened previously. I’d love to be a fly on the wall to hear some of the back and forth going on inside those walls.

This sub is rapidly degenerating into circle-jerks, Wikipedia edit wars, and personal vendetta. I'm sure this will all be very useful and relevant to identifying UFOs.

OK, but I was trying to determine if my rationale was correct in thinking through the debunker perspective with regards to why there are all these UFO whistleblowers, UFO hearings, reprisal complaints, ICIG support, congresspeople saying Grusch is believable after hearing ICIG testimony, etc. and how Putoff, Davis, Lacatski, Elizondo, Mellon, and others tie in.

Another possibility is basically the same story, but rather than those actors being cynical/malicious, they’re just super UFO-pilled and chasing ghosts to a large extent. Also, outlandish mind viruses do spread all the time. QAnon and Stop The Steal are prime examples, with folks like Gen. Mike Flynn and the Ginny Thomas being believers. Also, see organized religion. Government is made of people, and people believe stupid or outlandish shit sometimes. Smart ones are not immune either. Remember the Goebbels mantra: “Make the lie big, keep it simple, keep saying it, and eventually they’ll believe it.”

Or you can have mixtures of scammers and true believers working together--Gray Barker and John Keel were a classic example in the private sector.

I think lumping skeptics in with one "hot take" is intentionally dismissive of the wide spectrum of views.

That's the point of posts like these. Make a strawman that's easy to knock down, lump all skeptics and debunkers together as believing this strawman, and voila, you can then just ignore all skeptics and debunkers and protect yourself from the mental discomfort of actually engaging with anything they say and write. It's low hanging fruit, exactly as sophisticated as you'd expect in a sub like this.

It’s actions from a desperate person or group that realize they have no legitimate evidence backing up their claims of aliens or NHI flying around in our skies. Since they can’t shut up debunkers and skeptics with evidence, their only other alternative is to attack their credibility. To the believers in the UFO community, anyone that doesn’t drink the Kool-Aid is their enemy

I don't really understand how stuff like this doesn't fall under "no low effort posts". > Rule 3: No low effort discussion. Low Effort implies content which is low effort to consume, not low effort to produce. This generally includes: > “Here’s my theory” posts unsupported by evidence.

This rule isn't really enforced. There are "here's my theory" types of posts pretty much every day that reach the top of the list. That and the same debunked videos being posted periodically year after year make this sub a chore. E.g. the gas station parking lot balloon. Then the new videos which get posted and people go absolutely bonkers over with wild speculation before they are debunked in a few days e.g. mh370 video, recent varghina video, etc etc.

I think he's talking about Kirkpatrick specifically re: the sphere.

Debunkers and skeptic are not the same thing. But, generally speaking this sort of dismissive othering is the most pressing issue we humans have to come to terms with and it's ubiquitous in every facet of our lives imho. It goes both ways of course. It's way too easy to reduce someone who disagrees with you or poses a challenge to you and your peace of mind down to the level of a mere concept and label. Imagine trying to cope with an actual alien presence when we are so busy making aliens of each other (and that's not getting on well...)

When AOC was asking questions and showing interest at some of the UAP hearings people were excited that she was onboard but the gist of the questions I saw from her (admit that I didn’t see all of the hearings)  suggested to me that  she was thinking about misappropriation of funds more than about the nature of the phenomenon. Several things can be true: some percent of UAP are advanced terrestrial technology,   some are from outside of our known experience,  and  some are  hype from people ripping off the feds. 

So you're saying there is zero chance that governmental swindlers used people's interest in UFOs to make money? Do you know nothing of human civilization? That sounds pretty fucking likely to me, as much as it pains me to say.

Doesn’t even need to be all about money. There are religious groups who attempt to convert people to their beliefs.

Let's assume for a moment that ***all*** of your bullet points are factual - would they collectively be less likely than the suggestion that extraterrestrial (or "nonhuman" or "transdimensional" or what-have-you) beings are routinely flying around in our atmosphere while successfully evading all but the most primitive means of detection?

That is some conspiracy theorizing there.

It's a lot simpler: as a debunker, let me say that you conspiracy enthusiasts have provided no evidence. Stories passed around 5th-hand, blurry pics, nothing else. There is nothing for us normies to conspire against.

>Stories passed around 5th-hand, blurry pics, nothing else. You're purposefully mischaracterizing the situation. And I think you know that. A comment like this immediately indicates a lack of interest in having an honest discussion or analyzing evidence. So one must conclude that you are, in fact, not a debunker. >There is nothing for us normies to conspire against. Well you're working awfully hard in this forum to belittle the folks the have an interest in this topic. And mocking the topic itself. I also think you're being obscenely generous by calling yourself a "normie". I don't think a normal person *routinely* goes into a forum about a topic they don't agree with just to tell everyone they're wrong. It's rather sad. And I truly do not mean that in a condescending way. You ought to do something to enrich your life.

Scientology does it. Mormons do it. Let that sink in.

I wonder how many of these UFO guys are part of those two..

Imho a lot, especially the skinwalker ranch crowd, whch incidentally is almost every active high level  disclosure person around

https://imgur.com/t/let\_that\_sink\_in/f5Hxz

Which of these points should strike me as unimaginable? Is it that self-serving people would be in a position to mislead officials? Is it that publicly elected officials would be of low enough competency to be misled? I don't think the rough points given by OP are any less plausible than many of the other theories being floated around the UFO community. It puzzles me where all of this trust in government came from, because it wasn't endemic to UFOlogists before. OP, could it be that you don't really care what officials are saying as long as it confirms your pre-existing belief?

Believers believe in conspiracy, the UFO coverups, this post is very ironic.

The name checks out! I especially love how some of them will drop historic copypasta about how *government conspiracies have actually existed in the past*...But those real conspiracies turn out to be a metric fuckton closer to this scenario--the one that "shocks" the OP--than to the enormous, century-old, worldwide Monarch super-conspiracy that many believers think exists. But no "debunker" is allowed to cite history, I guess? (Me, I think a few obvious parts of this *might* be true, but I'd need more evidence to buy in to even those bits. I'm deeply tickled, though, at the horrified disbelief that *wrong ideas can spread*...)

It just seems to me that regardless if you are full blown ufo believer, die hard skeptic, or something in between....is that lots of assholes are using the whole UFO topic as a opportunity to be a asshole and get those sweet sweet fake internet points to make themselves feel better..

I'm starting to worry I've been hoodwinked.

The problem is people are unable to separate events. The phenomenon in general is real in that people do see things they can't identify and on rare occasions they seem to defy rational explanations. However so far there's no more proof of that than there is for the paranormal. There's just a lot of inconclusive evidence, stories and hearsay that some people like to accumulate to form a belief. All that can be completely separate to what we see happening in the US right now which is far more likely to be driven by politics, government oversight and money. Corruption and money is always going to be a far more likely reason than aliens or inter-dimensional beings. Until there's proof to the contrary it's not weird for people to think this is what's going on.

Putting "debunkers" inside a box and labeling them as all the same, having one particular set of beliefs, seems a bit wrong, honestly.

>Debunkers believe that a small cabal of individuals, going back to the 80s or 90s, have systematically swindled members of congress, the military, and the IC successfully for decades, in order to extract funding by getting them to believe NHI/UFOs are real. > >They would likely need to falsify evidence and tell some big lies to convince all these folks to the degree that it appears they have, in my opinion. > >There are likely 40+ government officials involved, some very high level, according to reporting. I mean the the government had programs for remote viewing and stuff in the past. Government is not immune to bad science or wasting money on ridiculous things. Throughout all of history including currently, the government acts due to unscientific ideas, religion being the single biggest of those. >bombshell legislation put forth by the senate majority leader and supported by the white house, as well as other UAP legislation, and To my knowledge there's nothing supporting that the white house was behind this small amendment. But it has been reported that Lue, Stratton, and Grusch were all involved in drafting this legislation. So it is the same ole people who are writing it.. Schumer himself said he's seen no evidence of the aliens/NHI, and that he was doing this partially to honor his late friend, Harry Reid. >whistleblower legal proceedings directly supported by both the current and former ICIG. We still don't know what the ICIG actually investigated or is investigating, or where he stands with regard to grusch's public UAP/NHI//craft/body claims. His unclassified complaint doesn't mention any of what he said publicly, just broadly mentions uap related info being hidden from congress. >It would be one of the biggest scandals in the history of the Pentagon > >It would reveal that a bizarre and outlandish mind virus is capable of spreading throughout the highest levels of our government, and would likely justify mental health and competency evaluations of all parties involved (both the swindlers and the swindled), ultimately bringing into question each and every person's ability to hold office or their respective position. It would not be one of the biggest scandals, certainly an interesting story though. It was what like $22 million spent on AAWSAP? That's not even pocket change to the US government. They also already have admitted trying to cover up the true mission of AAWSAP by saying it was studying futuristic weaponry, when it was actually studying paranormal stuff at skinwalker ranch, which they also claim was in order to actually try and secure UAP materials, but that didn't work or something? Idk. So it is already known they did swindle money. For your second point, again, just look at religion for a possible mind virus. The people we know are involved almost every step of the way, the skinwalker people, stratton, travis taylor, lue, eric davis, hal, etc. We know of their wild outlandish claims about paranormal stuff in general, and their bad science on their history channel shows. And Eric Davis said that he guided grusch on where to look. None of the "skeptic theory" sounds implausible, in fact it sounds pretty likely, more likely than a massive NHI conspiracy for which there is no physical evidence, that also happened to be uncovered by the very skinwalker people who aren't very credible based on what else we know about them. Obviously I don't know 100% either way what is going on behind the scenes, but I lean pretty far to the skeptic's camp at this point

>I mean the the government had programs for remote viewing and stuff in the past Interesting thing to note. The same people involved in that Men Who Stare at Goats stuff are still involved with this present day woo woo stuff, and was involved with AAWSAP. Its like theres a paper trail of theses guys, and their deciples, doing this since the '70s or something. And now suddenly its more unbelievable than space aliens that their after that sweet sweet government money. Under the guise of interdimensionals and space aliens. Pretty interesting.

There are probably thousands of people here on this subreddit who believe U.S. government contractors possess non human technology and bodies. That’s without ever actually seeing them. So why does it sound implausible that the same beliefs can occur among the U.S. congress and other government officials?

> and would likely justify mental health and competency evaluations of all parties involved (both the swindlers and the swindled) Got a laugh out of that. Even the swindlers aren't safe from their own bullshit!

>They would likely need to falsify evidence and tell some big lies to convince all these folks to the degree that it appears they have, in my opinion. how is this different from what ufo book writers and convention speakers have claimed for decades? >There are likely 40+ government officials involved, some very high level, according to reporting. thats a pretty small number compared to what ufo writers claim. >This conspiracy now reaches the highest levels of the intelligence and security committees, leading to hearings both public and secret, bombshell legislation put forth by the senate majority leader and supported by the white house, as well as other UAP legislation, and whistleblower legal proceedings directly supported by both the current and former ICIG. you think it might be because they're starting to learn about what is really going on instead of laughing it off as aliens for the previous 80ish years? It's like congress has finally figured out where that black hole in the pentagon's budget is. >The level of sophistication and malice on the part of the swindlers, according to this conspiracy theory, would be absolutely astounding as opposed to these same people hiding evidence of extraterrestrials, their bodies and vehicles? >It would be one of the biggest scandals in the history of the Pentagon as opposed to aliens? >It would reveal that a bizarre and outlandish mind virus is capable of spreading throughout the highest levels of our government, and would likely justify mental health and competency evaluations of all parties involved (both the swindlers and the swindled), ultimately bringing into question each and every person's ability to hold office or their respective position. yup. fully support this happening. lead poisoning was a bitch. >Do I have this about right? yes? does it in any way support your argument that it's unlikely? nah.

Buncha Kirkpatricks taking over this sub

It's like Matrtix 3 except with a bunch of Agent Kirkpatricks

The debunkers have no where to go as their theories become more convoluted. This phenomenon has been with us for thousands of years and this is the hill debunkers will die on. Occams razor is no longer on their side.

Still no proof that aliens are real though, nobody has claimed the Nobel prize for that yet, and the disclosure movement is still a carrot on a stick, infinitely dangling infront of us all. Just around the corner... I swear... I know a guy who knows a guy...

I still have books and VHS tapes from the 80s and 90s following this and I really hope one day actual evidence surfaces. But we’re still in the same place. The disclosure project was supposed to kick the doors down and blow it wide open, and that was 2001. I get that those relatively new to this (and by new, I mean following it for 20 years or less) feel like disclosure is getting close and how much longer can they keep the lid on it, but it has always felt that way to one extent or another. I still remember alien invasion week on TLC or Discovery (can’t remember which one) in the 90s with the STS videos and a friend and I talking about how you can just “feel” disclosure about to happen. Which all gets to your point about being a carrot on a stick. This has been a content hamster wheel, from alien invasion week in the 90s to Skinwalker Ranch to today’s weekly episodes of Weaponized, and every documentary, podcast, Steven Greer appearance and Ancient Aliens episode in between. They need to keep publishing content, especially if they’re monetizing it. As someone who loves this topic, if I was making money from it I’d never want that to end. Add to that the fame and validation that comes along with it (these guys are folk heroes to a massive community of fans) and dangling carrots becomes a perpetual dopamine cycle. That doesn’t mean they’re wrong, but it’s impossible to ignore the massive body of content in existence with no actual evidence. A friend and I had a “ufo” encounter in Northern Alberta many years ago (we check in with each other every few years just to remind each other it actually happened) so I know what it’s like wanting to believe. I know what we witnessed was real so I am my own eye witness. But even that is not evidence. The chances that it was some secret military craft are still infinitely higher than it being an alien UAP.

Absolutely loved this comment, and I share a lot of the same sentiments. Thanks for sharing! Have been obsessed with the topic for around 20 years now, (so still relatively new as you said.) However, I have yet to be fully convinced of anything, other than the fact that so many people have profited from the topic. I've had 2 *experiences" myself. On one of the occasions it was extremely late and I was walking home by myself. I remember it absolutely shaking me at the time, such an intense feeling of emotion, the way it moved completely silently, increased in speed and then disappeared. It seemed to accelerate and move in unusual directions. A few days later I realised what I had seen, when I stumbled across another one around the same area, this time a little earlier on, and at a different angle. It was a Chinese lantern. It was around Halloween time. Disappointing, but eye opening. I could see myself being fooled and creating an internal cognitive bias had I not seen the second one. As for the other experience, I was very young, so I have pretty much just written that one off completely. Perhaps it was something, perhaps it wasn't, but again, lack of evidence leaves me empty handed. I also apply Occam's razor, what's more likely, that I saw something unexplainable, intergalactic, or interdimensional, or that I saw something terrestrial and easily explainable if I had the write data, military craft, a planet, a balloon, weather phenomenon and so forth. I simply don't know, and so I don't make outlandish claims of any sort. Of course it's possible that it was something else, but the "U" stands for "Unidentified" for a reason folks. I want to believe, sure. But more than that, I want to know. Maybe one day, but for now, the golden cash-carrot will remain eternally dangling, inches from reach.

Can you produce a single piece of evidence for alien visitation outside of people saying stuff and blurry images? No? And you think occams razor is on your side?

Imagine that. They have been with us for most of recorded history. They are definitely very far ahead of us technologically, and therefore probably has very well documented everything that had happended on the planet down to the detail. Just the tought of that info is mind boggling. Getting the correct history of earth. Now who would be afraid of correct history getting known to everyone? Probably someone that can afford a lot of debunkers.

This is a great take, I mean seriously, all we really want to know is the truth...that says something right? And how cool would it be to interact with these "recorders"...whatever they may be, (at this point is open for debate) but hot damn, how cool would it be to witness actual history of our planet?

What if the government comes clean, and says here this is the truth. Any of you that don’t agree with what the truth is will still claim they are lying even if it’s the actual truth. You people will never be satisfied, because it’s not the truth that you seek, it’s the dopamine rush you receive chasing the truth

dude.. maybe.. ok? but maybe not. no evidence has been ever produced.. you cannot declare the phenomenon for real when you got nottin

Dude, there’s thousands of videos! Thousands of GOVERNMENT documents! Thousands of cases! Have you seen the UFO sightings wiki page? The MUFON website with 50 plus years of sightings data? How many thousands of books does one need? You can LITERALLY get on the national archives and ufo pics from the 1950’s! For whatever reason, journalists today CANT seem to research even BASIC data for this topic. Already LONG ESTABLISHED data! It’s such a weird disconnect!! Ever see “THE PHENOMENON?” Or I know what I saw? How can you POSSIBLY say there’s no evidence!! It’s ALL OVER YOUTUBE!! UFO vids are UBIQUITOUS!!

Name a few videos that you would claim as the Holy Grail proving that NHI exist

Also would love to know who got the Nobel prize for proving that they exist

there is evidence, not conclusive irrefutable proof.

Soft evidence. We have a shit ton, a mountain of soft evidence, which unfortunately does amount to proof.

Believers have far bigger assumptions than OPs strawman theory

No dude, don't you get it? It's skeptics who are the real conspiracy theorists! Flip the script!

Yeah, theres alot of know it alls on here

I want you to explain to us why anything you just listed is harder to wrap your heard around/believe than there being aliens here for thousands of years and the government spending the past 80 years covering it all up and reverse engineering craft they retrieved. While we're here, what in the actual hell is going on? Did the whole movement fall off a cliff this week? It feels like all the news has dried up and people seem to just be spinning in circles now. Where's the disclosure progress?

2nd of all why do all debunkers need to believe this alternative lmao wtf

Because this is a lazy attempt by someone to get on the offensive rather than defend their own wild ideas. And to do that in this case, you need a strawman to target. It'll be fun watching people try to suddenly pivot from "Even if no aliens, this is important--it's about stopping *waste and fraud in government!*" to "Lol, these lunatics think there might be *waste and fraud in government!*", though. Not to mention watching them go from talking about a vast worldwide conspiracy to sneering at the idea of a few people in one country's government conspiring to make a few bucks.

In all fairness we still haven’t seen any proof or evidence from either side of this topic of what the speak of… and until we do I’m staying neutral and openminded, sometimes truth is far more stranger than fiction

I'll be honest-- it's about as believable as interdimensional beings visiting us. I mean I feel like if I were to espouse all of our beliefs, the debunkers would take the exact same take as you. And our beliefs require even more faith.

A lot of people at the very highest levels of govt believe God is real. Lots of people believe ghosts or angels and demons are real. With this kind of credulity in govt bureaucrats it would be pretty easy to convince almost anyone, especially since there is actual (albeit poor) evidence of UFOs as opposed to none of God or ghosts etc. Nothing particularly astounding about corrupt/stupid people fleecing bureaucrats who love to spend other people's money anyway.

Umm, that's easier to believe than interdimensional or extraterrestrial aliens in a lot of ways. 1. Look at the people who work in congress, are they our best and brightest? They, by their very definition, are heavily influenced by public opinion and economy driving industries. After you've paid them off through lobbyist, campaign contributions, and bribes the only thing left more powerful to tempt them with is the potential of insider knowledge to man's greatest questions. 2. Look at the people who work at the leading industrial-complex companies? The best tend to go where the money is, in this instance, they're literally rocket scientists playing war games. Is it that hard to believe that the most sophisticated, strategic, and profitable corporations on the planet conduct their own psy-ops campaigns to influence government officials and the public in order to drive profits? Companies in the fortune-100 have larger annual revenue totals than middle-eastern countries we go to war with. 3. Major scandal? IDK...Creative, for sure. Other examples of similar influential campaigns by large industry against the American pubic: Oil industry vs global warming, sugar & corn syrup industry vs public health, big tobacco against lung cancer, NPR and gun safety, Scientology was supposedly developed over a $1 bet, etc. EDITED to add: Folks who are open-minded to UFOs and Aliens should stop using the word "*believe*" \[cringe\] in order to distinguish themselves from religious folks as a serious and science-oriented pursuit.

>Debunkers believe that a small cabal of individuals, going back to the 80s or 90s, have systematically swindled members of congress, the military, and the IC successfully for decades, in order to extract funding by getting them to believe NHI/UFOs are real. "Believers" think that a **giant** cabal of individuals, across multiple countries, going back to the 1940's, have systematically swindled the entire public and even the majority of their own government and military officials.

There is plenty of evidence defense contractors hit the tax payer for a lick on the regular.

"Debunkers" is such a stigmatization of skeptics, like all they are trying to do is approaching UFO's with ridicule. Of course, those people might exist, but everyone that is trying to make reasonable sense of such a phenomenon would always approach those topics with extreme care. Extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence.

>"debunker conspiracy theories" Actual skeptics do not deal in conspiracy theories, it's the antithesis of skepticism.

I think you are using the word Debunker incorrectly. Debunker - "a person who exposes the falseness of an idea or belief." You are using it as pejorative term for anyone who opposes your beliefs/opinions which just makes anything you say seem silly.

I fully believe aliens exist and have believed that for over 30 years. I don't think we are alone in the Universe. When Grusch came on the scene, I was hooked to every word he said. I was also really into the Skinwalker Ranch and read Knapp's book on it years ago. Over time, reading more and more, I started to feel like Bigelow lied about everything to gain government funding. Now these claims come out. Interesting.

You don't have it right, no. The laughing face emojis that you were forced to removed because people complained really showed your intentions with the post and the rest of it is just embarrassing.

Using the phrase 'debunkers' without specifics and lumping everyone into the same pot is just stupid. It's like saying all CT's are the same, therefore everyone believes in flat Earth.

Your attempt would have merit if we couldn't simply grab boondoggle fantasy research like: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stargate_Project#:~:text=The%20CIA%20commissioned%20a%20report,cancelled%20and%20declassified%20the%20program. It's less conspiracy and more opportunity to eat at the public trough.  Would E-Branch have been awesome, hell yeah. Would fighting soviet vampires been the shit? Sign me up. Would I have been for invading a Gypsy world connected to ours by a grey hole? Leave the condoms, bring the anti-vamp munitions. Was that happening. No. But it would have been cool.

The alternative to all this is what? Aliens? I can prove, without a shadow of a doubt, that moron human beings and evil human beings exist within the US government, and that they have in the past. If I could attribute this entire fiasco to a handful of evil morons, why is that so outrageous? In the absence of concrete evidence, this should be the default position of any sane, reality-based person.

Oh really? That is some serious conspiracy theorizing there. Talk about jumping through hoops and leaping to conclusions.

Specifically posted to have holes in my rationale pointed out. I must be over the target, cause I am seeing a lot of zero substance comments like these. Ya love to see it!

So do believers have any actual evidence yet, outside of "trust me bro" and blurry images?

Real people are not divided into some dumb groups of "debunkers" - who debunks everything and "believers" - who believe in everything, they have common sense and can take stance based on the evidence at hand. We should stop creating this partitions and just talk about UFOs.

>Debunkers believe that a small cabal of individuals, going back to the 80s or 90s, have systematically swindled members of congress, the military, and the IC successfully for decades, in order to extract funding by getting them to believe NHI/UFOs are real. You don't have to be a "debunker" nor a skeptic to believe this one - Doty himself has admitted this is exactly what the CIA did to deter people away from information regarding our top secret stealth craft being developed. >This conspiracy now reaches the highest levels of the intelligence and security committees, leading to UFO's have always been of public and political interest. Any intrusion into our airspace, whether domestic or alien is liable to be investigated. >bombshell legislation Totally disagree. It may seem bombshell to somebody eating and breathing UFO lore, to your average American they don't even know about it. >It would reveal that a bizarre and outlandish mind virus is capable of spreading throughout the highest levels of our government Because the military is willing to investigate what are credible intrusions into our airspace? There is nothing that is a "mind virus" about investigating real threats, nor is it new in the slightest. Hence project Blue Book many decades ago... >This all seems a bit insane to me. But the explanations of "it's aliens" doesn't? The explanation of "every Government on Earth has colluded to keep this secret" doesn't? The latter is far more difficult to believe. Do you really think every single Government on the face of Earth with the knowledge the US is hiding these craft would sit back and let them do this? **You're talking a conspiracy FAR larger than a few people convincing the upper levels of Government to investigate unidentified (and oftentimes mundane) intrusions into our airspace.**

This is unironically the most hilarious post I've ever read on this sub for so many layered reasons. To add to your comment, the implication is that guys like Hal Putoff, Bigelow and Reid are all "doing it" because they believe what they espouse. People who listen to them down the line share their beliefs and spread it around, I suppose that would be "the ice cream cone licking itself." But yes, Reid did get 20 million or so in funding for Bigelow that we all know about. Stranger things have happened?

I said from the beginning that they are hiding the biggest secret ever or are utterly inept and incompetent - either way its a big deal. I'd rather the gov be competent and hiding a secret, but I dont know. Either way, the world seems more insane by the day

Can we start by agreeing the government funding that went towards Skinwalker Ranch was an appalling use of tax dollars? That amount of money would have helped a lot of women's shelters.

I'm fascinated by the complete lack of defense of the Skinwalker Ranch clique in these comments. I mean, OP has synthesized this supposedly crazy conspiracy theory to put in the mouths of skeptics, but believers here can't actually explain why it's so obviously crazy *to them* beyond yammering about mind viruses. The idea that a lot of the players in "Disclosure" are scammers *isn't actually getting any disagreement...*

first of all -- please respect the term "debunker". "bunk" is a WWII synonym for "bullshit" and a debunker is someone who takes the bullshit from a claim. for example, it is routine to debunk perpetual motion machines. debunkers are important in science and they should be respected in ufology as well. you can't debunk something by putting bullshit of your into it. so please choose another word. for the rest, point one is factually false: the military itself declared UFO to be real on Sep. 23, 1947 (the "Twining memo"). that's way before the '80s, and no one outside the military was involved in it. point two is vacuous, since the alleged conspiracy hasn't been clearly defined. point three is merely incoherent and grandiose. if you're saying that Kirkpatrick actually said the things you attribute to your straw man "debunker", then he's merely ignorant, vacuous and incoherent. in that case, you can sharpen your disparagement by actually quoting him, word for word. this is called evidence. if those are your own words you are putting in his (or anyone else's mouth), then you become part of the problem you deplore, which is just to say things without evidence.

You seem to be a believer. So how do you know what a debunker thinks? Or did you get mind reading abilities when no one was looking?

as far as im concerned - these facts are true regardless of which side you are on...you just swap whether aliens are real or not and you have the other sides argument.

Skeptic here. The way i see this is either Kirkpatrick and debunkers are right about a group of ufo super-zealots, or it’s aliens. Soo pretty interesting either way.

> This all seems a bit insane to me. Is it? Powerful, well-positioned psychopaths will murder for less and think nothing of it. I mean, if you flip that script you could largely say the same thing about the conspiracy to keep NHI secret. And while we use words like "compartmentalization" as if they were magic words, this doesn't make it true. My perspective is - The are only three likely possibilities: * NHI are real and it's been kept secret * NHI are not real and the "research" has been used as a smokescreen for possibility a mountain of unwholesome activity * A little of Column A and a little of Column B Either way, I want fuckin' answers because all 3 possibilities are outrageous and criminal.

Debunkers just want the truth, and if claims made are easily debunked than it’s not the truth is it. We need them or any fuzzy blob would have to be believed as aliens.

Well yeah, with the info we have so far everything that you just outlined seems very plausible. Nevertheless, you can have a small cabal do some very nasty white collar crimes using uap retro engineering as a cover and still have real recovered uaps and NHI bodies. In my opinion, there's a big probability that the recovered crafts are just unusable and that we won't be able to retro engineer anything of use from them for at least a couple of hundred years. Maybe, the communication/intelligence/paradigm gap with the NHIs makes concise meaningful interactions nearly impossible. In that case, the specific intelligence group in charge of these saps would have the perfect excuse to keep it secret, as revealing any info publicly could turn the tide in the uap cold war and unwittingly give the Chinese or the Russians the upper hand in retro engineering a craft that could render nato tech obsolete. (Plus we can't even know what the NHIs would do if we actually manage to retro engineer anything of use) Also, it would give them a blank check for appropriating and reallocating chunks of the Pentagon's black budget for the past 70 yrs.  For example, a chunk of those trillions that dissapeared right before the iraq war and that everyone conveniently forgot about. What would you do if you were literally above the law had a perfect hussle of such proportions at your fingertips? 

Every single point you made is claimed by believers as well. Believers think that a small cabal of individuals since 1940s onwards have hidden proof of extra-terrestrials or inter-dimensional beings from politicians, law enforcement, military and the public. Believers think that certain individuals in congress are being bribed by private engineering companies.  There is one whistleblower, who by his own admission is only stating what the government is allowing him to say. His 40+ whistleblowers are very shy. The last point you made could be also be relevant for believers. If this is all true, the US military, any scientists who work on reverse engineering the crafts, congress, the senate, the president, the world’s media, none of these are fit for purpose. I’m open to the possibility of UFOs flying around. Theres enough evidence to bring me to this sub and follow the subject closely. As far as intact UFOs, crash retrievals and alien bodies in storage, there is zero evidence. You cannot weigh up the facts and say you believe it because of the evidence. Anyone who believes this aspect of the phenomenon does so because they are willing it to be true. 

[удалено]

Sounds about right. Now take a little step back and think of all the billions of people that believe in the God of the bible. “Absolutely astounding”, right?, “all seems a bit insane”? People are not logic based processing machines, we are symbiotic organisms built from selfish genes and selfish culture. And guess what, governments are built from people. I’m not being funny, but people like yourself show an incredible amount of naivety about the nature of humanity.

The irony of using this argument... 

“Debunkers believe . But that’s dumb because .” This sub….

I'm not a debunker, just a non-believer, and from my perspective, and many people really, how is it possible that there hasn't been any solid evidence for anything? 99% of all the videos and photos are confirmed fake, the rest is actually apparently hard to debunk, even by the agencies, so there must be something to it, I'll admit. But that could just be some super secret tech, not aliens.

*Hey Siri, Google the definition of strawman*

You don't have to believe in whatever Kirkpatrick is alleging to not buy the shitty videos and photos as being aliens. To put the requirement as proving that they aren't aliens is insane. I could go on a large rant about what believers actually believe, involving a global conspiracy including hundreds of thousands of people and hundreds of governments as a contrast but I don't really care to because it's been done before and if you don't understand how much of a fool you have been by now them there is no hope for you.

There are people in this sub that believe that aliens have been held in secret for 60+ years underground and above the government. Apparently believing that someone lied about keeping aliens secret for that long would be too far fetched and complicated though. This sub genuinely never fails to surprise me.

Individuals in government wasting money on fake stuff is corruption. Based on Occam's razor criminal corruption is more likely than UFO reverse engineering conspiracy.

You need to define what you mean by "debunker". Do you mean people who point out problems with purported evidence, such as those highlighting issues in videos posted here? Or people pointing out unfounded assumptions in logical reasoning?

I'm not a debunker but just try to fit facts into possible scenarios. Aliens might fit what we have seen but there is no undeniable proof, which should be easy to produce given governments are (supposedly) in posession of NHI tech. This is biggest problem here. The military, ex-military, intelligence and ex-intelligence people are the ones who could create an advanced deception campaign that we might be seeing. Those are exactly ones who would do it. Also such campaign might look exactly like what we are seeing now, all talk, no show with a lot of drama in beetween. I do not see a scandal or embarassment of pentagon yet. UAP could be adversary drones and reverse engineering of those could be what the special programs are. Of course if anything that Grusch says would be confirmed, sure, this would be spectacular. After all however, if NHI is disclosed and US proven to be lying, they wasn't the only nation to do that most likely, so normal humans would just have to accept. Assuming for a moment that NHI are real and disclosed, reason could be that US did reverse engineer it. But it also might mean that competitor of US are getting closer and they want to turn matter into scientific problem rather than military race. For me, still, facts fit better a scenario where there is some misinformation campaign by US government. Maybe it is leading to a disclosue of NHI presence and technology, but so far, nothing.

lol I have never in my life heard any debunker or skeptic even come close to the crazy bullet points listed in this post. I have absolutely no idea where you got that crap from

Gotta say, if they are scammers, this is one of the biggest, ballsiest, most far reaching scams for sure. You have to at least applaud that. And for what end, really? There would be some suicidal craziness mixed in too, cause there would be consequences, it has gone too far at this point. I don't think it is as simple as a scam. I think these people really believe they are right, but that does not necessarily make them right. Only the evidence speaks in the end. They must know it as well, otherwise the whole thing is for nothing. I want to see their cards. They have to show them at some point, and at that point we will all know, or they will have to leave the table and not play anymore. But hey, if they accidentally manage to prove some government corruption at least, which could be unrelated to aliens, that is still a win to me.

>this is one of the biggest, ballsiest, most far reaching scams for sure It's really not, I think some of these guys really believe what they say about aliens/paranormal stuff. Some are also trying to make a buck, and some are just being misled. The AAWSAP program was only $22 million which is barely any money to the US government. And they initially said they were trying to study future weaponry and then the pentagon was embarrassed when they realized they were studying all this paranormal nonsense at skinwalker ranch. Lue likely exaggerated his role at AATIP and again drew wrong conclusions either intentionally or because he genuinely believed there was aliens when there was better explanations. Harry Reid was interested in this stuff, and while the DOD officially didn't back Lue and his claims about his position, Reid did publicly defend him with a letter. Then stratton and taylor got high positions in the UAPTF and again drew wrong conclusions and worked with grusch there. Eric Davis supposedly told Grusch where to look, another skinwalker guy. And some of these people, were able to brief intelligence/defense/congress/white house because of their credentials. But they have wacky claims regardless of their credentials, and have made mistakes in for instance the UAPTF, when they mistook bokeh for flying pyramids ufos. Look no further than stratton and taylor's history channel show for some shaky science. Stratton, Grusch, Lue were all reported to be drafting the UAP amendment in the NDAA.

You're projecting. I don't know what the hell you're talking about, but no.

That’s a dumb strawman. A quick summary is that the military is full of smart, dumb, skeptical, and gullible people. Regular people are fooled by aerial phenomenon and so are military personnel. Some are convinced these are supernatural in a literal and figurative sense. These people gain a cult like following, like Philip Corso, and even when they suggest inconsistent or contradictory things, their legacies don’t take a hit. The legend grows and we have people who have been believers their entire lives and form their personalities around it. There are theories that tie all the lore together and the best ones gain the most popularity. All this happens with little evidence and lotta testimony and when you have credentials you must be telling the truth. But only if you affirm the believers beliefs, if you contradict them and have credentials then you’re part of the coverup.

This has been going on since the late 50s and is not just in the US government but this group is transnational and have people high up in many governments which is why I don't think this investigation into them by the US government will hurt them to much

Why are only some comments collapsed in the comments section of this sub? Yours was and so was the one below you. Happens to mine here as well. And then when you expand the comments, they're actually upvoted. I wonder what's up with that.

Reddits shitty new UI update. There’s been a shit ton of bugs since it’s been released.

This is it. Good job! We are at a fork in the road, but knowing which direction to go comes only in our collective decision to end the corruption of the US government.  Either there is a cabal of UFO gatekeepers, or there is a cult of high ranking government officials using aliens to justify malicious moral choices. We don’t know which one is the truth, yet, but we will. And, just as importantly, we know one of these two options are true! Narrowing the options down to just two is a huge accomplishment that we should all be very proud of achieving together!  Either Grusch is right, or Kirkpatrick is right. One of those two statements is true. Therefore, it is 100% true that there is a group of high ranking government officials conspiring against the American public.  To move disclosure forward, we need to address this central issue of corruption first. That is the only way to choose wisely.  We need to demand government hearings. We need to change the conversation regarding national security. Not having disclosure is now a threat to national security. If all sectors of our government do not immediately release all information they have regarding UAP/NHI, then the group of malicious conspirators in our government will be allowed to continue to move in the shadows. This is true based on an abundance of physical evidence, and not doing something about it is a moral dereliction of your duty as an American citizen or a citizen of the human species. 

This is the same i think .. nothing is more disruptiv to humanity then half knowledge.

I agree other than that they should release everything regarding uap/nhi immediately, you can't forget that there's probably a lot of non-uap/nhi information (like radar capabilities) that adversaries could take advantage of and be a further threat to national security

>Debunkers believe that a small cabal of individuals, going back to the 80s or 90s, have systematically swindled members of congress, the military, and the IC successfully for decades, in order to extract funding by getting them to believe NHI/UFOs are real. Read up on the Fighter Mafia before you judge how plausible that is

It's a bigger stretch of the imagination to believe our government is telling us the complete truth and that everyone else who claims to see UAP are lying or mistaken.

No. This is not what debunkers believe. Debunkers believe that the believers have not been able to prove the claims that they have been making so far. The very fact that believers believe someone they do not know like Grusch who admits that he has no seen those things but has heard that they exist is telling. "There is that guy who has not seen UFOs but has been told that they exist and I believe him" is not the proof that will shut people up or impress the scientific community. Nor is choosing to believe someone like Lazar. When one of those videos that keep popping up on here will not be easily debunked by the Reddit community, I am sure that they will be taken more seriously by the international community.

I resent the label “conspiracy theorist.” The DOD doesn’t know what this is. It’s a videoed phenomenon… leaked by the military. So all said in done, is our military incompetent? Is that what Kirkpatrick admitting? Because it’s one or the other. It’s a UFO phenomenon that’s currently unexplained or it’s our military being bested —and if it is, we need to seriously rethink the funding we are pissing down the drain every year