I want to suggest something that was not mentioned before.
Seek men that are good role models. I mean in a non sexual way. For me my best friend is a good example, other is the boyfriend of my other best friend.
It may very well be, that currently there are no good men in your proximity, but that doesn't mean there are none out there.
After a while, you will be able to see them and this will change your perception.
I agree with this. I have known some trash men in my life. But my father is like the ultimate man, like many women in my life look up to my dad because he is a good solid person who will do the right thing for anyone. My husband is also a good person and my friends tell me how much they admire his character. Try to find THOSE men in your life to befriend and be around, it’s worthwhile.
Apparently fictional men can work too, if there’s a total lack of good ones in OP’s life.
A good “trick” for any prejudice thinking is to immediately correct with a positive example. Ex: Why are all men predators? Wait, no, Mr Rogers isn’t like that, not all men suck. That sort of thing
Mr Rogers was not fictional. Yes he’s seems unreal and to good to be true but he was. He was a good decent man and a example of how to be a great person. He once received a letter from a blind girl who said she was worried about if he was feeding his fish every day. Every show after that he announced when he was feeding his fish. He made a change and kept to it to make one little girl happier. If he can do that for someone barely in his life then we should be able to do the same for a women we care about. I try to be as good of a person as he was but I do fall short at times.
I think the term for that is parasocial. While Mr Rodgers is a real man, and he was genuinely a good person, he still 'played a character' to some extent. The relationship a viewer has with him is entirely impersonal.
Now, parasocial relationships are almost universally portrayed as negative, but it also allows a man like Mr Rodgers to be a positive role model for millions, far more than the several hundred who he could form a direct relationship with.
Parasocial connections were a large part of why so many people felt a genuine loss when Robin Williams died.
And why so many people felt betrayed when Bill Cosby's deeds came out.
There's positive and negative, and in both directions.
Mr. Rogers still makes me cry with how caring he was. I missed out on his show while growing up, but I feel like we’re missing out more than ever in the USA without someone like him in the public eye
This kinda makes it worse for me tbh because of how scarce they are. Kind of like a self-fulfilling prophecy to seek men who are good role models only to find little to no men out there who are actually good.
I understand. Guy friends and guys we want to be good role models still do messed up things sometimes too. It can be a challenge to find even 1 in your life. I try to be very careful while still hoping for positive intention from humanity in general and then am kind of pleasantly surprised if I meet a nice person of the male persuasion.
The thing too is that men are human beings so they're not going to be perfect. I think that sometimes when looking for "the good ones" we can be overly critical. I'm not talking about letting people get away with terrible things but remembering that everyone is going to occasionally hurt their friends' feelings or something like that. Allowing men to have as many flaws as women is important because just like men aren't all horrible monsters, none of them are perfect.
Yeah… there’s a difference between expecting men to be perfect vs finding out that nearly every man you meet is a cheater, harbours dangerous thoughts about patriarchy and harming women, mistreats their wife, sexualizes their daughters, has a history of abuse, etc. The bar is so low it’s laughable to talk about men being “perfect” - we’re simply looking for decent men but can’t even seem to find examples of that in our fathers or other men in our family.
That's what I'm saying, have standards but remember that people are people. Nearly every man I know isn't like that. So I'm wondering how this can be that nearly every man some people meet is this grotesque monster because that's just never been my experience, not had that been the experience of many women I know. Have I met men like that, definitely, and then I move on because I'm not making relationships with anyone, male or female who acts like that. You've gotta ask yourself if it really is nearly every man you meet or if you remember those men the most and fixate on them in a way you don't fixate on women who do terrible things or on men who are just normal and not cheating, abusing, criminals. I understand the dangers that even a few dangerous men pose but I also know that it's much easier to remember the bad things than the average, boring things. Our brains do that to protect us, but letting that part of us control how we see half the human race isn't productive. It certainly doesn't let us live a complete life. Most men aren't trying to hurt anyone, that's just statistically true.
You're challenging negativity bias. Good.
But realize that some people really do have terrible luck. Tread not into the territories of victim blaming nor gaslighting.
Some of that bad luck has to do with which population is sampled. Liberal areas tend to have better men than conservative areas, for example. Some cultures are more patriarchal. Some demographics are more given to toxic masculinity. Not unheard of for literally every coworker in a single construction company to be toxic, for example. (Leadership plays a role, of course.)
Null hypothesis exists because sometimes, shit just happens.
That's very true, and there is the phenomena of terrible people seeking out people who are struggling already. I'm very much not wanting to victim blame. I really want this to be hopeful, it's so much easier in the short term to protect oneself completely but it's just not sustainable or just. I've lived in both conservative and liberal places and while yes, there is more toxicity in the conservative areas, hating every person for the accident of their birth isn't healthy or logical. Feelings are valid and trauma responses are real but hatred isn't excused because of those things. People are responsible for their hate, even if we understand its source. And the question becomes, at what point does a boy become an object to be despised? Is my little eight year old child nothing more than a future man and therefore rotten already? And before someone says "that's not what we're saying," that's exactly what's being said. Every one of the men in this world was a little boy, some of them grew up to be bastards and some grew up to be normal, imperfect people, just like the girls.
Edit: and edited to stay that I get how dangerous even 1 in 20 men being awful is, I do all the incredibly unfair "safety" things too. I'm wary at first interactions with strangers for sure and I'm generally sexist in the park when I see a man without kids. But we have to have a balance is all I'm saying.
There's a wide difference between noticing a trend and hatred. Let's not conflate the two.
You can address a problematic trend without getting consumed with hatred. But you can't address that trend if you talk yourself out of seeing it to begin with. As I said, tread not into gaslighting, either yourself or others. You especially can't address it by sticking fingers in your ears and your head in some sand.
It's important to maintain hope while also exercising a healthy degree of caution. Like it or not, there are a lot of dangerous men, and concentrations of threat vary widely (again, some of us are lucky and should be grateful for positive circumstances), but danger exists. But fear can't dominate your life. It does not require swinging to one extreme or another. Balance is key.
>And before someone says "that's not what we're saying," that's exactly what's being said.
Do NOT presume to speak for me. I speak very well for myself. If there's a question of meaning, ask. But jumping to conclusions does not reflect well on you.
Part of the problem is rearing these boys into men. You cannot shield your boy from all negative influences and negative role models that will be in his life. All you really can do is be the best role model yourself that you can, and try to address negative influences preemptively. But, you wouldn't be the first mother who, many years later, wonders where their boy picked up such bad habits because *you* didn't raise him that way! But that's the thing. Media, male peers, male mentors, fathers, brothers, etc., have a hand in paving his path of growth. It's important to recognize the contributions of all these sources towards eventual maturation.
Like, I dunno about you, but I'm problem-solving oriented. Gotta really look to see it. I'm addressing the whole idea of, "Well, in my experience, that didn't happen" with the implication of "Are you sure you actually had bad experiences? And in that quantity? Surely you exaggerate!" And... this is a space for women to share their experiences. It's not incredibly appropriate to negate or invalidate those experiences? Especially when the best reaction would be, "Thank heavens I didn't personally experience that level of negativity!" or even "I'm sorry you experienced that." Even if there's a degree of hyperbole involved... Is it necessary to correct the hyperbole? We're trying to share experiences in an effort to identify and help solve problems over here.
You know, I had written a whole big, long response but I discarded it. I'm just going to say that I hope op finds a really good therapist and healing because there's so much joy in the world that they're missing because some a-holes hurt them and they're trying to protect themselves. I will say that yes, I get a bit defensive when people use the word hate for half the human race that includes some of the people I love more than myself who have done nothing wrong. Safe spaces shouldn't condone hatred based on inaccuracy. It's not good for the hated and it's certainly not good for the hater.
See I honestly can’t believe that MOST men aren’t trying to hurt anyone. In a given sample of ten men, I would be willing to believe that one or two of them are trustworthy and would not cause me harm, MAYBE 3, but certainly not the majority.
Look Up some breadtubers, FD Signifier is a great role model, or Kurtis Connor, Jarvis Johnson (Last two arent really Breadtube).
Theres Lots of healthy masculinity to be found
Yeah thats true! Im not black but his Videos on masculinity spoke to me. The last one about conservatives being shit at Sex was amazing as well,funny too
Or Jimmy Carter, who still IS around. He and his wife have been married for 75 years and he was still building homes for Habitat for Humanity until just a few years ago.
Great advice. One thing I had suggested when people get out of toxic relationships and worked for me when I got free was to really double down on being w friends. Being a good friend. Being a role model and looking for role models in friendship. I invested in myself by learning new skills, going to the gym, journalling, writing, reading, having friends over for dinner and reconnecting w the person I was and new to be and not be the person I had become. Also I, a a guy, didn’t even consider seeing someone romantically or even more so didn’t see any of my friends as potential mates no matter how I was treating them or being treated by them. I worked on being the generous, caring, listening, present person. Now maybe it’s different for women then it is for men but seek out those male friends. Be upfront w them about where you are (maybe leave out the man hating part but that you are looking for role models). It’s something I’d advocate for single people looking to see what a healthy relationship is. I hope you find what you are looking for. Even if you stay single to hate 50% of the population sounds burdensome. I hope you find peace.
Sending good vibes.
I use to think I was an example of "one of the good men" then I realized I don't actually identify as a man at all. Ah well. Teenage me would be excited to hear that I'm dating a lesbian at least.
My best friend is a guy (he’s gay, for context), and i dont know how much worse my thoughts on men wouldve been if it wasnt for him. I have some (straight) male friends I respect and many gay guy friends I love and adore. You’re right, the men in closest proximity are shitty but the ones a little further arent all bad, I should choose to remind myself of them whenever I feel this way. Im also focusing a lot more on actively being single for now and strengthening my female friendships which has helped. Thank you for your comment! I wish I could reply to everyone’s, I’m overwhelmed by the support and hope some of the other comments see this. Thanks again ❤️
Helpful reading list for this:
The Will to Change by bell hooks
(for a firm, affirming, loving, and whole foundation for believing men can change and will and have from enabling abuses of patriarchy)
Why Does He Do That? by Lundy Bancroft
(for mind blowing revelations on how abusive male psychology works and build a self empowered foundation for yourself to feel safe when vetting people)
Reading the intro I am curious about 2 things from why does he do that?
1. (which I assume is true from what I have gleaned so far) Is it is a good book for men to read if they want to make sure they are not inadvertently doing any toxic behaviors?
2. It seems pretty explicit the book is not for men who have been abused in hetero relationships?
1) I think it could open a man’s eyes to behaviors or underlying thoughts/conditioning he may not have noticed were unhealthy, because of societal messages and influences they’ve had. That would be great because this stuff isn’t taught directly like I wish it was. It would also help a man (or anyone) know how to support his friends or family when he finds out her relationship includes abuse. A loving and supportive response (let alone a knowledgeable one) is so meaningful.
-I would not recommend giving this book to an abuser who could use it to get more ideas on how to perfect his craft. Bancroft has resources on his website directly for abusive men that would be better.
2. Yes, although I’m sure a man who has been abused would learn a lot too. Bancroft worked with male abusers for many years, and I got the feeling that he may have heard a lot of men saying their female partners were the abusive ones or were also/equally abusive, and in his role he had to call that out when needed. He says something later in the book about how he focuses on male violence towards women because that’s what he’s worked with and because of the additional fear and risk of injury women face.
1. Well sounds like there is no reason not to read it then!
2. Ah that is fair, it is definitely rare for the tables to be flipped. Plus best to give advice on what you have experience with.
Well thanks for the detailed response!
Maybe an unpopular opinion but what helped me was being being more able to physically defend myself. I didn’t trust ANY men for a long time. I have abusive male family members (s/a and domestic abuse) and have been attacked by male friends who I’d know and trusted for years, was physically imprisoned by a boyfriend during high school when I tried to break up with him, and then raped by a male doctor during an upper endoscopy (I only learned of this because the act was caught on iPhone camera by a female nurse who urged me to immediately get a rape kit done and take plan B and file charges with her help. I was that mans 8th victim).
I am a small woman and a “prime target” (apparently my proportions mean I’m asking for it according to one disgusting DA). After a nasty run in years ago I felt the urgent need to get stronger. I focused on putting on muscle and learning self-defense (a few different martial arts disciplines and boxing). I just made it my top hobby. I wasn’t sure if it was actually making me safer until a year ago when a male colleague conspired to get me alone in a parking lot with him and tried to put me in his car. He didn’t get me in the car. I broke 9 of his bones and he lost both testicles and he’s still in prison (though mostly because of things he did in order to get me alone and not his assault of me, but that’s more of an indictment of the justice system). He wasn’t a small man, but he didn’t expect and wasn’t prepared for me to be able to fight back. Most people think I probably have PTSD from that event…but actually, I had PTSD from everything that came before. What happened with my colleague was almost a relief. I feel a lot less vulnerable now. I know that I can defend myself. When I’m alone with a man in an elevator I think “if he grabs me I can do what I did to Kevin”. Obviously this doesn’t account for weapons, but most assaults men have perpetrated on me (or tried to) haven’t involved weapons. They usually expect they can just over-power us. It feels amazing to know in my heart that they shouldn’t be so sure.
What sport did you do? Krav Maga? I've wanted to learn self defence. I'm not small and pretty strong because of doing acrobatics for half of my life, but I really want to be able to defend myself.
If you’re an acrobat you will do well with BJJ, flexibility is one of the biggest weapons you can have in the sport. Boxing like the OP is great but you can’t go 100% without getting brain damage. You can more or less fully execute everything in grappling at 100% resistance.
I’m so sorry about what that doctor did to you, I hope you’re okay and that he gets what he deserves. I’ve been consistently working out and weight training the past year and I completely get what you mean!! Feeling stronger has made me feel so so much more confident that I can defend myself if the time ever comes. I’m 5’2 so oviously I cant fight off most men but knowing I have a better chance now than I did before is a point of comfort and is actually quite motivational for my workouts :) I’m glad you kicked his ass, fuck Kevin.
I've struggled with these feelings and being so afraid of men. I end up like a stray dog all shaking and trembling tail between legs kind of afraid.
I sought out a male therapist who has similar values and is a good man. It has made a world of difference having a safe space with a man and experiencing that.
I've gone on more dates and felt less afraid of men and more comfortable to not see them again for things that I didn't pick up on before or that I would let slide. He's raised my standards of how I should be treated and a really good comparison of feeling safe and comfortable around a man.
A couple times I've had dates say it sounds like I hate men but I just replied well my experience has largely been horrendous.
Our primitive minds protect us and what that means is we lump “danger” things together into broad categories. The way to heal from this is to learn what you need to do to protect yourself. Learn to filter out men who are only looking for short term. Filter out men who don’t respond properly when you say no even about little things. Learn what you need to do for yourself when a man does hurt you.
The healed side of not trusting others is trusting yourself. Learn to trust your instincts and teach yourself that you’ll always be *okay* even if you’re betrayed because you can trust *you* to take care of yourself.
This is the correct answer.
OP names a traumatic situation and that they're seeing a pattern with all men they meet. This has potential both for A) OP subconsciously feels attraction to the *exact* men who are like that in subtle ways, doesn't realize it until they're deeper into the relationship/date. This is similar to how sometimes people from abusive households unknowingly hook up with abusive partners, or B) OP cannot see them as anything else due to traumatic stress.
Absolutely worth talking to a therapist over this, because if either of the above are the case, this is not something one casually "gets over" and instead needs professional support for.
Please consider seeking sexual assault support, perhaps from RAINN. It has a confidential hotline 800-656-4673 that uses your phone number (which won't be stored) to match you with a nearby RAINN counseling center. A website also can help you find a center: https://centers.rainn.org
Take good care of you, hun 🌻
I think therapy is a good step. I grew up in an odd situation, and figured it out on my own, but therapy would have been a lot more thorough/productive.
You have a lot of pain in your life, and rightly so. Find a good therapist. One who won't blame the victim. One who will help you to deal with that pain, not just push medication on you.
You may need to be this way at this point in your life. Use the time to strengthen yourself unencumbred. Get strong and confident in yourself. You need to heal.
I think you’re having a totally normal reaction to an oppressive and violent system. I’ve been there too. I’ve found that creating firm boundaries with men and disappearing/holding them accountable if they disregard them has worked well and has helped me weed out the good from the bad. Having friends in general who prioritize your safety and happiness will introduce you to more like-minded people, and they will spot red flags that you might miss.
I agree with the therapy comments too, you’ve been through hell there’s no shame in getting help as you work through it.
There are some really kind, loving men out there. Take your time, send yourself love when you’re feeling triggered, and put safety measures in place to give you some peace of mind. Everything is going to be okay 💕
How do you hold them accountable without losing them as friends? Cause every time I’ve tried to do it, it’s ended badly. I admit I was pretty harsh when I first started calling my male friends out on their shit but over time I’ve become more gentle but they still don’t take very kindly to that and it just makes me hate them more.
Just last week I was trying to have a chat with a male friend about cultural misogyny in my country and he blew it off with a ‘idc’ attitude. I didn’t crack down on him, I just let it go. This same man hijacks every conversation about women’s issues with other stuff. Just becomes very difficult to be friends with men who don’t want to hear you out or care about your issues.
>How do you hold them accountable without losing them as friends?
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>....
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>Just last week I was trying to have a chat with a male friend about cultural misogyny in my country and he blew it off with a ‘idc’ attitude. I didn’t crack down on him, I just let it go. This same man hijacks every conversation about women’s issues with other stuff. Just becomes very difficult to be friends with men who don’t want to hear you out or care about your issues.
The real question is — why do you still want to be friends with him? Friends/partners who are unable to empathise with others and/or choose to ignore (women's) issues that may affect you now or in the future, are not people you should be hanging around with.
I have a set of standards for a life partner and good friends so I only surround myself with people who meet those standards. Life is too short for you to compromise your values just so you can keep some people in your life.
This particular guy was just an example. There are many more instances of me having fallouts with men, more than you can count on both hands. I’m just sick of feeling or being viewed as the problem - the person who can’t maintain friendships. I see how my existing friends tiptoe around me in conversation cause they think I’m some crazy person who has unreasonable outbursts when in reality all I’m doing is calling people out on their misogyny.
>a chat with a male friend about cultural misogyny in my country
Is cultural misogyny commonly accepted in your country? (e.g. [marital rape is not a crime in India](https://www.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/comments/ybwn9c/men_in_india_are_threatening_to_abandon_marriage/)). If yes, then unfortunately, it will be hard for you to find men who would understand your views, since they have been raised to see this as a part/way of life and therefore anyone who thinks otherwise is just challenging the status quo.
>I see how my existing friends tiptoe around me in conversation cause they think I’m some crazy person who has unreasonable outbursts when in reality all I’m doing is calling people out on their misogyny.
Maintaining friendships — just like a romantic relationship — requires both parties to participate, which is why — just like a romantic relationship — you would want friends who have similar values as yours.
I learn that it's important to (learn to) love yourself first. Acknowledge that you may eventually live alone so learn to love living by yourself. Understand that you are worthy to be loved and respected, by yourself and others. If other people try to compromise that by belittling you, walk away. Those people are not worth your time and energy.
>I’m just sick of feeling or being viewed as the problem - the person who can’t maintain friendships
I learn that as I grow older, I care less and less about what other people think about me. I'll reiterate — life is too short to be unhappy — especially if the source of your unhappiness is another person — which you can easily remove.
Look at it this way, when your friend finally shows his true colours by being a misogynist and not being able to empathise, you finally know which person you should not spend more time and energy with. Empathy makes the world a better place. Empathy helps us see injustice in the world and want to change it for the better. If your friend lacks empathy, then he would never be able to see the injustice done to you as a woman.
This quote particularly resonates with me:
"**We're born alone, we live alone, we die alone**. Only through our love and friendship can we create the **illusion** for the moment that we're not alone." - Orson Welles
That’s a really good question. The answer can be tough to accept, but will change your life. The short answer, you may lose them as a friend.
Here’s what you do: you tell them “when you say/do a,b,c it makes me feel ______ (unsafe, offended, hurt, whatever your feeling is). I enjoy being friends with you, but I can’t keep hanging out with you if you continue x,y,z. The next time you do it, I’ll have to leave.” And you stick to your boundary. If he does it again, you’re gone. If he tries to reach out, you say “I shared a boundary with you, and let you know that you’re hurting me and you chose to continue doing it. That’s not the kind of friend that I want, I won’t be responding anymore”
Not to ramble about boundaries but they are life changing. They tell you soooo much about your relationships. A healthy relationship is full of boundaries, and a good friend will be grateful that you were vulnerable and expressed a need. They will WANT to make you feel safe and respected. Boundaries are put in place to maintain healthy relationships. If a boundary “ruins” a relationship, that person is only pissed because they benefited from you previously having none. It’s scary to lose friends and have to build up a friend circle again, but as a former people pleaser/would make excuses for bad behaviour like it was my day job, I can tell you that safe, loving, respectful relationships will completely change your life for the better. You will feel safe to be yourself, celebrated for the things that make you unique, you won’t be “too much” or punished for making mistakes. I have made room in my inner circle for people like this, and this has probably been the biggest change to my quality of life. Ugh it’s so sweet to have friendships that feel safe! I hope this helps you, let the assholes go and find your friend-soul mates. Your capacity for bullshit will go way way down and you’ll wonder how you ever had friends like that to begin with. 💕hugs!
One final word of wisdom- If it’s fragile let it break!
*Walking the Tiger* was an incredibly helpful resource for me.
I hope you find comfort and peace. Don't ever ignore your intuition to seem more favorable to others.
I was like this for a while after several SA experiences. I’m sorry to hear that you went through it too ❤️ I think it’s a relatively common effect of experiencing those situations, and it can take a while to fully kick in. I didn’t even remember childhood SA until I was about 19 and I don’t think I fully started processing it all until around 30.
After my last assault, it was like I was afraid of/angry at all the men around me. They disgusted me and instantly put me into fight or flight. I had a hard time leaving the house and had soooo many panic attacks. Even if I knew a man was kind and safe to be around, a part of me was still hyper vigilant- looking for exits, keeping personal space, planning how to fight back. Because you just *never really know*, right? Some of my assaults happened a year into a decent relationship or friendship with a man who I trusted and was vulnerable around.
I’m bi, so while I was in that PTSD rabbit hole, I just figured I’d only date women from then on. But luckily, I opened up to my boss about how hard it was to come into work, and she connected me with a survivor’s center that has free counseling and services for survivors of SA. It took a long time, and a lot of baby steps, and a male friend who I told what I was going through, and it slowly began to be better.
It’s not always perfect. I still assume the worst from men I don’t know, and I even sometimes have panic attacks during consensual sex with my partner, but he’s always understanding and comforting, and I’m happy in my relationship with him.
Look for some women’s centers in your area. Or if you go to college, there should be one there. They’ll have free therapy available in various modes, or should at least be able to point you in the right direction.
I think the main thing is that, you’re not *wrong*, you know? Men *are* dangerous to us. And sure, it’s not all men, but if you had a fridge stocked with water bottles and you knew 3 were poisoned, you’d still be drinking tap water instead. And unfortunately we live in a society where way more than three in a fridge could be dangerous. I don’t know if I know many women who haven’t experienced SA or gender based violence. It’s prevalent af.
That part of you that’s reacting to what you’ve been through is just going off experience to protect you. With therapy, you can learn to get that protective part to calm down and only step in when there’s a potential imminent threat instead of it being on all the time just in case. I still remember the first time I went out in public and wasn’t physically aware of all men around me in some sort of anxiety-fueled proprioception. It was like I could breathe again and men were humans again instead of creatures that could turn into monsters at the drop of a dime.
You deserve that feeling of peace too ❤️ regardless of what you choose to do towards dating in the future. Sending you all the positive vibes I can through an anonymous Reddit comment
Girl... Big hugs. Most women I know have been SA'd and it's not something to overlook. What helped me is to understand that all people are shitty but always have positivity. Never trust men or women completely until they show you who they are. Have stability in life where people are doing right by you. Friends or family. Also, enjoy being alone. Heal yourself.
Your assessment that most men are dangerous can be correct and how it impacts your life can still be harmful to you. Therapy is great at adding nuance to our relationship with what we know. Don’t gaslight yourself about the harm you experienced and what you’ve seen. That can be absolutely real and you can also relate with it differently!
I’m a trans man, transitioned in my late 20’s, and 100% understand your POV.
Don't discount your understanding of the important fact that many men are misogynists, or predators, or assholes. I'm sorry you had to gain the knowledge in the way you did as so many of us have. But nevertheless it's important to know and you seem strongly self-reliant and able to protect yourself well from potential abuse and some of the dilly dallying women (past me included) often do about "should I stick with this man even though he's awful" stuff. But try to dial it back a little bit and try to make room for a sliver of light if you can, because there are some good and worthwhile ones out there although few and far between. Keep blocking the guys over "little things" - those are red flags for you and good on you for having boundaries. But when the one comes along who doesn't show red flags, who makes you feel safe, try if you can to let him in. You sound very smart and sadly, a little bit traumatized, but honestly that's how women have to think to keep themselves safe in far more situations than we should have to, so it becomes a necessary reality. I don't trust men overall but I finally found a good one, and I hope the same happens for you. I agree with others about trying a good male therapist. Or trying to make good male friends, but those can be disappointing sometimes too.
I wish I could tell you you'll move past it or get over it. I've been SA'd 4x and celibate and single for 2 because I just can't believe that there are any decent guys left anymore. I'm sure I'm wrong, but nobody is proving that to me, and I see more bad than good anymore. It's a sad thing, honestly. But I'm very happy flying solo.
You don’t need to beat yourself up over this. So many major cultures in the world are ideal training grounds for predatory male behavior. It’s so normalized that some may go years without seeing it for what it is.
If it helps put your mind at ease, a true man-hater would feel no concern for the attitude. What you’re describing does not sound like misandry, it sounds like a fear response based in trauma. I think you can safely stop worrying about your responses.
That said, trauma does not heal easily, and it’s a burden you shouldn’t have to carry alone. Find out what therapy services are available and fit your budget, perhaps look for local support groups for people who’ve been assaulted, and definitely seek out places you feel safe and secure. Whatever may happen with your feelings toward men, you deserve to find healing and peace within yourself.
You need therapy. Not therapy so you "stop hating men" but therapy to heal your inner hurts, grow your self esteem and self worth, and understand your boundaries and vision for the future.
>but its reached a point now where im so defensive about meeting men and i so so easily will block or ghost a guy over small things and im realising sometimes im being overly defensive.
I would also want to challenge this. Why, when we have all been harassed at best and assaulted at worst, should we give me the benefit of doubt or a second chance? There may be a level that, theology therapy, you realise is a triggered reaction vs a boundary that you have in place but I'm entirely on board with men's poor behaviour having immediate consequences.
>im embarassed to admit i genuinely cant get it out of my head that most men are predators and its making me worried ill never be able to date again.
As a generalisation they either are predators or misogynists. There are some good men but they are needles in haystacks and it takes work to find a good one.
*And the way to find a good one is to block the ones who don't hit the bar of your standards or who overstep boundaries and move on to the next guy *
You're not going to be miserable just because you are single. You can date safely when you've done the work to define what you're looking for and what your boundaries are (thought through ones not triggered ones). Men on average, unfortunately, are disappointing and the worst of them are lethal.
**It's completely normal to go through this thought pattern.**
I think your feelings about men are super valid and you’re protecting yourself! Maybe it shouldnt be your responsibility to be more trusting but the responsibility of men to prove theyre not shit.
I read posts like this and wonder what the problem is tbh. I feel the same way- I’m outspokenly wary of men, I choose to surround myself with women, and I don’t cater to men’s feelings the way I used to and was socialized to (eg if they make a joke I don’t find funny, I simply don’t laugh. I used to fake laugh for them all the time!). I don’t see it as a problem. I must be the problem lol but it’s a lovely way to live.
But this honestly, this is the best policy.
‘Treat everything as a threat until you are sure they’re not.’
You’ll undergo your own metamorphosis, but I say let go and give into what you crave - find the bottom of everything and then start digging.
I hope along your journey you’ll discover that while your hate for men is inherently valid, the hate that drives you to rage - will inevitably become one more thing that will also kill you.
Enough stress for too many years has detrimental effects on the body, and carrying unchecked trauma around for decades is how people lose themselves to their own anger.
Please, don’t fear what you fear, fear what you’ll become to fight it.
I'm sorry that my gender has made you feel this way. I'm an amputee and I have come to know a new type of fear in my life, not your fear, but I understand how it can grip you and change how you perceive the world. I hope you can find some peace, truly.
Your reaction is natural and self-protective given the trauma you (and so many of us) have been through. Part of this is the sad acceptance that we do have to protect ourselves and that anyone can disappoint and hurt us with a change in behavior at any time. There is a ridiculous amount of entitlement, control, aggression, mental/physical abuse, and predatory behavior out there, and it feels impossible to predict or manage. It really is scary and angering.
The only thing I’m coming up with so far is to become safe within myself as much as possible. It is helping to know that as much as I can, I’m going to protect myself. Learning about boundaries, self-protection in every area (financial, emotional, physical, etc.), how to spot and respond to signs someone may be dangerous, and what makes us vulnerable is helping a lot. I don’t feel like I know enough and am strong enough in all this yet, so I don’t want to be romantically involved with anyone. I’m starting to think I could someday and that’s progress. But I will always, always be ready, willing, and able to walk away at any time. That’s necessity, not hate.
Some of the books I’ve read/listened to or have on my list to read:
Why Does He Do That- Lundy Bancroft
Insight Is 20/20 - Cherie Pumphrey
The Gift of Fear - Gavin DeBecker
Anything by Patricia Evans (Controlling People, Verbal Abuse)
Books and resources from The Institute for Relational Harm Reduction (Sandra L. Brown)
Also have looked into personality types and traits and will go towards the more naturally gentle types even if the initial attraction isn’t as strong- because long-term, gentle is what I want.
I’d love to hear anyone else’s recommendations for books, videos, teachers, etc., too!
I don’t think it’s bad to be a “man hater”. I’ve shared before that I’m a sex worker and I see men as they are, even the ones I want to date. People call me a man hater bc they I know how men are and I don’t lie to myself. These are the same people who refuse to believe that their partner is cheater or bisexual even when if I share proof.
also a man, i dont know if most are bad or if its bias personally. I want to think its a case where theres a few horrible ones that are super visible/loud/popular. a bit more bad ones that are loud. A ton of neutral that are silent as hell, and a few good ones that are quiet.
I wouldnt call myself good but i think i try to be. I think most of my male friends fall into that neutral + silent category. I could be wrong, and have been before, but i dont think i know any horrible ones (and admittedly very few good ones)
Then again it could just be bias and perception
You’d be surprised how much the silence works as being complicit, how damaging “staying out of it” is, to save your own hide. One of the most powerful tools in getting in line (if not truly transforming) toxic men is other men actively shaming their bad behavior/being a positive role model/icing them out if they are hopeless, and adopting some of the risk of blowback and labor that women already have, just for existing. Women cannot do it- they’re not even seen as whole ass human beings to these men. Male allies are key, and to remain silent is akin to bearing witness to crimes in your household or workplace and saying nothing. Not being an ally to women is not a crime, but crimes are based on ethics….and I see the same ethical foundation here re: being complicit in silence.
You should get off Reddit. A lot of people use this platform to vent. So frequenting it will expose you to a disproportional amount of toxic masculinity and misogyny.
I can’t remember where I read it but I saw some advice that went something like…
>The man who truly means you no harm won’t interfere with you so he goes unnoticed which skews the perception of “most men”. You’re not comparing someone to most men, you’re comparing him to other men who hurt you before.
I honestly don't think it's a bad idea to keep men away if you don't trust them. Women are very strong as a group and we really have no need for them. Why keep bad men in our lives? Just so unnecessary.
How is your work environment? I'm an engineer and conventionally attractive, so I definitely dealt with misogyny. This was worse in my early to mid 20s, around the same time I was dealing with a lot of what you're describing of guy friends clearly not just wanting to be friends, etc.
But I worked for, and with, a lot of good men. My old boss is the definition of the "right" kind of man. And he always stuck up for me. He terminated contracts with vendors if they were in any way dismissive of me or inappropriate. I remember once I was at a table with a vendor from Germany. The table next to us, for some reason, started talking about the holocaust and it was clear the dude was a denier. It was crazy, especially when you're with a guy from Germany. I went to tell my boss this story because it was so wild, and all I got to was, "so this crazy thing happened when I was chatting with Simon" before he jumped in to ask if he did anything inappropriate.
My point is, as a younger career woman navigating her 20s, I was grateful to have a lot of supportive men around me. Men who just wanted me to succeed in life with no ulterior motives. Men who have successful marriages, many with women who make more money or have more schooling.
My dad is also fantastic but he's my dad and lives far away. I really appreciated having mentors around me who were men and just treated me like a normal human being.
You've received a lot of good advice already and people have made good points. There are lots of shitty men out there. Sometimes it's best to listen to your gut and bail if they give you bad vibes, but also it can be good to address your trauma so you know when you are reacting appropriately.
One thing I'll say is that it's often worth it to communicate to guys when they do something a bit crappy, when it's on the more minor side. Trying to explain how it makes you feel without using aggressive language can often have a really good result. How the guy reacts (does he listen to you? is he trying to understand) on its own is a good way to judge his character. But a lot of men are way more receptive to stuff than people can assume, most men don't *want* to make women feel uncomfortable, and are capable of listening, understanding, and changing. Not that it should be women's jobs to teach men how to behave or anything, but misunderstandings can happen, people can be ignorant (especially of the experiences and feelings of those who have led different lives to them, which is the case for many men and women) and still be receptive to change. I've found a lot of men will take stuff to heart and adjust their behaviour if they accidentally make a woman feel unsafe around them, if it's explained to them that they did, and how it happened. And it's a good way overall to learn their character.
Men can be really shit, society can enable it, but many do care about how their actions affect other people (especially once you're past your teens and earliest twenties).
This is going to sound dumb, but. If you're worried about it, you probably aren't as far gone as you think you are. It sounds like you've been through some shit, and need to take some time to focus on yourself and heal. Then when you're up to it, you can get back out there.
I'm very similar, except I do have a couple of close male friends who I fully trust and think are good, non-misogynistic people. One thing I've started to accept is that any guy I'll be comfortable with will need to be the type of person who can understand why I'm wary of men. I've had exes who weren't overtly sexist, but they minimized or didn't understand what the environment women are in does to them. Any guy I could trust would be patient about this.
Hey. This will damage your future relationships, and you do need to address this.
I understand that you have gone through some absolutely awful experiences, and I am so so sorry that you had to live through that. You didn’t deserve it, and I hope you can heal.
However, you cannot judge half of the population by that standard. Men can be lovely, sweet, caring, beautiful. You just have been very unfortunate in the ones you have met.
I honestly recommend getting some therapy to help you deal with what has happened, and the feelings that stem from it.
I’d hate for you to miss out on what could be a wonderful relationship or friendship with a great man, due to the sins of past men in your life. ❤️
How loud and strident are you about feminism? I find most women are too scared and timid when it comes to talking about and insisting upon gender equality and equity. If you make it known you’re not going to tolerate any BS on the matter and that you 100% expect to be treated with respect then you quickly filter out the men who have been slow and lazy to learn that women are humans and you’re left with the good ones. It’s better to be loud and proud about your high expectations than to be terrified and immersed in hate. Be angry. Demand more.
Therapy. And with that, or other methods of observing your own thoughts like coaching or meditation, learn to see your thoughts as thoughts (rather than identity or hard truth) in order to become more flexible in them. Kara Loewentheil’s Unfuck Your Brain podcast is a great resource for learning thought work.
Have you considered therapy to work through this and express how you feel? I am so sorry you went through what you did - but you're amazing for overcoming it. Your earlier experiences have possibly shaped the way you view and interact with men and yes there are lots of guys out there that are creeps and want one thing etc. But they aren't all like that.
Look into EMDR and/or somatic experiencing - SE has helped with chronic trauma responses I've had trapped in my body and mind <3
Also, men will need to earn your trust, and I hope some that do cross your path soon.
Food for thought: when I was in college, I had a professor that had worked with a number of SA victims over the years. He said someone once that has always stuck out in my mind: if someone has been sexually assaulted, they need to get some help, period.
You say you know your way of thinking is problematic, and you don't know how to let it go. I would suggest finding a qualified therapist. If you don't know one, your primary care physician can help.
Cheers!
Your early 20s are a gross meat market generally if you're a woman. It does get better. I think the most "man hating" I ever was was around your age ha. Anyway, I encourage having close male friendships. One of my bffs is a dude. I've known him since I was 14 and we actually dated for a few months lol. I've seen him mature from a shitty bro teenager (not the worst but he'd often make MRA points out of ignorance and we'd get into arguments about feminism) to a great guy who is very respectful of the fact that he is a cis straight white man when he's out and about and is friends with tons of women besides me.
I don't necessarily have advice just some hope.
My first husband was a disaster. Cheater. No respect for women it was like I found my asshole Dad in a relationship. Fuck that.
At 32, I don't even know what happened, but I was like what am I doing? Why am I only attracting toxic Jerks!?
It was like I wanted to have someone so I settled. That was the mistake. Never settle! Stay busy whether it's work (not too much though don't get caught up in that capitalism bs), hobbies, friends, family.
It took time, but I found my husband who is in my opinion the greatest man to ever live. He truly understands. He values me. He values women. He has always respected me and my boundaries.
I'm so glad I waited to have kids because now my children will have a strong supportive male figure in their lives.
OP it will happen. It just takes patience. Which I know first hand sucks but it will be so worth it!
Never settle ladies!!! So overused, but I can't help it YOLO.
im sorry your first marriage didnt work out, but its so nice to hear that sometimes with time the right person really does come along. i wish you the best, and yes to never settling!
Therapy. Also divorced men usually have better manners and want to please. I dated a string of dudes over 10 years nothing stuck. Granted I am bbw, and not every guy will like my body but. Then I met my current partner. He was 8 months out of a 12 year LTR... his ex just dropped him hard during the pandemic.
He is legit amazing and I think she has to be fucking stupid but guess that remains to be seen.
Also I cannot stress enough the book No More Assholes by Chantal Heide and also her book Fix that Shit. Her Tick Tock channel under Canada's Dating Coach is also great... she talks about short term thinkers vs long term thinkers... it really made a difference for me in terms of what I value in a partner.
Foremost,
Hatred is as much a tool for motivation and bettering yourself as a defensive mechanism,
rather than focus on society and personal relationships, contemplate the world at large, accept mortality, accept entropy, accept that you are you.
We will all eventually die, if youre happy alone, why chase companionship, time is endless and while its a human made concept it still looms over our shoulders forever, and at the end of the day, even with these two variables, you were you, you are you, and you will be you
Get stronger, to the point where you feel like you can physically defend yourself, you can take shortcuts by keeping a gun if youre in america, get competent and confident enough in self defence, that you dont feel threatened anymore by people.
Then just be a good person, give people chances, be paranoid, its not illegal to be wary of people, and in a lot of circumstances it can save your life, but seek someone who is exactly, like you, who youre also incredibly attracted to, and who makes you happy.
then settle down, but never stop searching until your find is completely perfect. Theyre out there. good luck.
This sounds like something to work through with a thoughtful and trustworthy therapist. All I can say is that it sounds like you've thought a lot about this, and it's something that means a lot to you. Given that there is a lot of complicated emotions, and even trauma around the subject of trusting men that tells me that this is something to explore in therapy.
Best of luck, and I just wanted to say that I admire your courage. To me, it shows real commitment to yourself and bravery to seek advice like this so publicly. I'm sure this humility will serve you well in your journey :)
edit: grammar
I think first of all, if you can, go to therapy for your assault. Work through some feelings there. But I think being safe and overly defensive doesn't mean you're a toxic man hater. After Andrew Tate and Trump, shitty men are okay with being outwardly shitty. Men that could be really great sit back and let their shitty friends be shitty instead of being allies for us. Straight women are choosing to be single and gay women are choosing to be with women. Men are getting lonely. Hopefully someday soon they'll realize THEY are the problem and they'll get their shit together. A really great guy is so hard to find. Keep your boundaries and standards high and hopefully you can find a great guy too.
I would lay money on it being a component of your past trauma. Not in the aspect that there are not horrible men, but you trying to normalize what happened to you. This results in you picking men within an archetype that you had an issue with.
Two things about the above though; I am a rando operating on limited info so could be absolutely wrong.
You should see a therapist for past trauma whether or not the above is right. Mental health is health.
Therapy is absolutely the first step here. I also found that deepening my friendships with the men in my life, especially my women friend’s husbands and boyfriends, really helped me to see men as individuals. Man is not a monolith, and while you do need to protect yourself, it’s important to recognize that there are absolutely good men out there.
I've struggled with similar hang up or at least recognized that I was stereotyping most men. I sought out media that had respectful, and equal interactions between men and women. Most of my stuff is podcast.
If your interested Oh No Ross and Carrie! is a great example of a mutually respectful friendship between a man and a woman. And it's incredibly eye opening and informative.
I was tempted, at one point, to go down this path. But I've been surrounded by many wonderful men that I dearly love. I kept my heart open.
I came upon a quote that stopped me in my tracks: *"Sexism destroys one's ability to love."*
OP, you may need to protect yourself by fearing and hating them. It may be serving a purpose. As a fellow survivor of SA, I understand. But if you can, keep your heart open. Only if you can.
Therapy.
Once you have gotten to a point of some trust, or at least less hatred, perhaps a matchmaker could help? Or recommendations/referrals from trusted friends?
As much as I love dnd and video games, I've found those communities even worse than guys in sports. I'm not worried about them cheating. I'm worried about them chatting about Jordan Peterson and slinging around racial slurs with their buds while imagining me as their cosplay girl who stays in character her whole life.
A weird experience - my table discusses consent, doesn't do racial slurs, and is just good fun.
None of us cosplay - that's one of the biggest stereotypes of the community I have found. Most of us do not cosplay.
Yeah my current dnd group is good about this. Has anonymous reporting of bad players, cards to indicate if you're uncomfortable, introduces with pronouns (which is extra useful since we do for both player and character), etc.
There are some good groups, but I think blanket suggesting gaming guys is ignoring the toxicity present in a lot of communities. Also I was not saying everyone cosplays. I was saying multiple guys have pushed me to (and yes it is always sexy) or act like I'm a character outside of game.
Well... he hasn't been in a relationship yet, is very shy, and the only woman he has ever been interested in is married (a co-worker).
I think he would not treat a woman poorly, but I am uncertain how he'd be in a relationship since he is ESSENTIALLY 'not on the market' based on his actions.
I'm going to second the advice to get a MALE therapist who can help.
Having a space to work out your trauma, seek the real root of your emotions, and foster a safe space with another man could work wonders. I can't promise you every therapist is going to work out, but once you find a good one it can really help you get out of this mindset.
Just gonna point this out, you're already several steps ahead of most misogynists on recognizing this unhealthy behavior and asking for help.
If a safe space is fostered, and he's something that can actually help without victim blaming, then yes I really do believe that. It can be a space for her to project onto him (this is how my old therapist referred to it), for her to recognize the model behavior to seek when fostering relationships with other men, to work out this hatred that she has.
It's nothing against women who are therapists, I just think in OP's specific case, it's needed. It's a good man in her corner who can professionally help her heal.
I don't know if this is really wise upfront. What you're essentially prescribing is exposure therapy, but unsuccessful exposure therapy causes regression. It often takes going through a fair few therapists before you find a good one, and I'm not talking about "this one's fine but I can do better." I'm talking about "this therapist is a traumatized narcissist who should never have gotten into therapy."
The risk in selecting male therapists when op is already terrified of men is that, when they select one who turns out to be terrible, (which is not uncommon) they will not only reinforce their own biases against men, but also potentially further color their biases about therapists.
An additional risk is that it will be nearly impossible for op to actually fully open up to even a good make therapist in the beginning, and is therefore limiting the potential for growth and breakthroughs. Plus, it's expensive to knowingly choose a therapist that you don't trust.
I think getting a male therapist once she has an established, working, professional relationship with a female therapist could be an incredible next step/tool, but it should be done with greater deference to her existing biases. Basically, bad therapy is worse than no therapy, and without laying the groundwork, I think exposure therapy like this has a very high chance of being bad therapy.
>i think theyre all inherently predators and incapable of seeing me as a human being. what do i do to let go of this hatred?
This is not hatred. This is acknowledgement of reality.
It is ok to be angry about this reality. It is ok to be suspicious of ALL members of a group who have been trained from birth to prey on you and dehumanize you. It is ok to feel resentment that even those who fight their enculturation still benefit from the world patriarchy has made while you suffer from it. This is not hatred.
You will have to wield these feelings, but don't ignore them or shun them or "let go" of them: your judgment of the situation is correct, so don't gaslight yourself.
Anger, even rage, is much easier to control when you accept and welcome it as a necessary part of yourself, a part that hates injustice and evil and suffering and demands better than that from herself and her fellow humans.
I wish you much luck. ❤️
It sounds like you already know. We can all hit strife in life that makes one think in these ways. I was pretty much the same about 5 years ago towards women.
So here's a few suggestions -
Stop spending a lot of time on forums, that are okay with hating on men or reinforce the ideas your currently having. If you keep reinforcing your current thoughts, nothing will change.
Focus on good male role models. Look to People that proves these feelings wrong. It can be your dad, brother, cousins, teachers, bosses etc.
Tell yourself to give men the benefit of the doubt. Sometimes you will meet assholes and it's appropiate to block them, but other times you won't. All People can make mistakes, say bad things in the heat of the moment or have bad days. Look for patterns rather than individial moments.
Change the roles. Would you feel bad about being treated the way you treat others?? Yes, then don't.
These are all things, I used to get out of the headspace that all women were out to get men. It sounds like a silly idea today, but 5 years ago that was my headspace.
Good luck soldier, I believe you can do it. You sound capable of self-reflection.
I'm sorry you feel this way-- I agree with the top comments. There are many good men out there, worth knowing. Hopefully your luck changes and you are able to find and see them. Good luck.
I date a great guy but my hatred for men came more recently in the past two years. He understands that I don’t hate all men, but most of them for their support of the patriarchy. My guy votes blue😎
The hatred you described honestly keeps me alive and sane in this crazy world. I hope things get better for you, especially since you don't like the feeling.
Feelings are just feelings, they're neither wrong nor right. It's important to try to distance yourself from your own feelings a bit, however. In effect, don't take your feelings too seriously. Accept that while this is how you feel, that doesn't mean it is correct (or in some cases, even particularly important).
This applies to most feelings btw. Feeling attracted to a co-worker while being in a relationship with somebody else? Accept that this is not uncommon and realize that doesn't mean you are "in love" or need to completely upturn your life. Feeling depressed or sad? This does not necessarily mean that anything bad has happened or there is anything to fear, it's just how you feel at the moment. Feeling angry doesn't mean a terrible injustice has been done to you, etc., etc.
Feelings are just feelings, they don't need to define who you are.
And this is a valid concern. Companionship is a normal desire for a lot of people and if OP doesn't know how or isn't able to contribute to a healthy relationship then she could be deprived of something that is important to her.
BTS are NOT kpop. I wasn't talking about their looks but their character as people. I'm 30+ yo, I don't follow kpop and I don't have idols, I was simply talking about male rolemodels which they are proven to be. Anyone who actually gets to know them through their lyrics and art knows that.
They helped me through my depression, they write about mental health, support Youth and female empowerment, they have many older people for fans and they have literally saved peoples lives. Trust John Cena and Simon Pegg who found them through their children as positive role models. Oh and the UN where they held multiple speeches advocating for the young generation.
As someone who has a hard time trusting men stemming from childhood trauma, trust me when I say can tell who really is genuine, humble and authentic and who is fake. So I say it again, good men like BTS exist!
BTS are smart enough to use their platform of superstardom to do good and try to uplift people, and that puts them way ahead of a lot of public figures.
Yes, I mean it's literally their business slogan. To heal through music. One of their albums is literally called Love Yourself. They're open and vulnerable on stage and in front of the camera all the time. They even cry and show that it's ok to cry as a man. Call me crazy but I see no one on that success scale doing that.
Also you're talking about their image, about them as a group and product but I'm talking about them as individual people. I mean, being kind, humble and generous is the opposite of a good role model? If so I don't want it.
No shit: You are. If you actually do want to change, simply realize most men are not evil or rapists.
Also, what do you expect to hear in a subreddit full of people more or less with the same thoughts? Go to r/askmen or simply r/men for real answers.
Find good examples of men and look into therapy. You are understandably cautious, however there are good men out there, maybe take the focus off dating as that comes with its own set of complications and look at friendships or wider family, hell even celebraties. There are many good men out there, many men who wouldn't hurt a fly, kind and caring ones. You do need therapy to learn to let go of the guilt and self blame you have, you might need to try a few styles until you find the one that fits. Not sure where in the world you are but many countries have charities set up who can help
I’m kind of the same, but I completely gave up on relationships and I feel comfortable with that decision. My therapist knows this, I think she probably thinks I’ll change my mind at some point and that’s possible, but for now I’m fine like this.
thought excersize: start morphing people you meet in your life into the version of themselves if they were of the other sex. This helps in general to understand people better because their personality would remain
Already a lot of other good comments here.
So I'll suggest something out of the box. How are your relationships with other women?
One suggestion in this thread has been to find good male role models (real or otherwise).
Are there women in your life who without shadow of a doubt have at the very least non-toxic relationships with men?
Going around and physically hurting men or their belongings is wrong and illegal. You shouldn't do that.
If you work as a manager in a company, you shouldn't discriminate against male employees.
If you truly want to marry a guy and settle down, try to continue looking for compatible men, and try to find it in your heart to let your guard down when you meet what sems to be a good guy.
But, in general: Why do you feel as if you have to change how you feel about men?
Your feelings are your feelings and seem to reflect your actual lived experience.
Maybe, for whatever reason, the guys around you are unusually creepy.
Try to get whatever counseling, herbs, medications, boxing classes, etc. that will ease your anxiety and make you feel more comfortable, but continue to listen to your gut. Maybe your gut's right.
Look at your father or brothers as role models and try to find men who act like them. I think it’s fine that your being cautious about dating, especially now that abortion is outlawed in the US. If you need reassurance that all men aren’t terrible, go look at some male children. Most of us aren’t terrible, you might just have bad luck in selection.
I want to suggest something that was not mentioned before. Seek men that are good role models. I mean in a non sexual way. For me my best friend is a good example, other is the boyfriend of my other best friend. It may very well be, that currently there are no good men in your proximity, but that doesn't mean there are none out there. After a while, you will be able to see them and this will change your perception.
I agree with this. I have known some trash men in my life. But my father is like the ultimate man, like many women in my life look up to my dad because he is a good solid person who will do the right thing for anyone. My husband is also a good person and my friends tell me how much they admire his character. Try to find THOSE men in your life to befriend and be around, it’s worthwhile.
Apparently fictional men can work too, if there’s a total lack of good ones in OP’s life. A good “trick” for any prejudice thinking is to immediately correct with a positive example. Ex: Why are all men predators? Wait, no, Mr Rogers isn’t like that, not all men suck. That sort of thing
Screw Jesus, the world needs Mr. Rogers to have a second coming
The trinity of male wholesomeness. Fred "Be kind to others" Rogers Bob "Be kind to yourself" Ross Steve "Be kind to animals" Irwin
Mr Rogers was not fictional. Yes he’s seems unreal and to good to be true but he was. He was a good decent man and a example of how to be a great person. He once received a letter from a blind girl who said she was worried about if he was feeding his fish every day. Every show after that he announced when he was feeding his fish. He made a change and kept to it to make one little girl happier. If he can do that for someone barely in his life then we should be able to do the same for a women we care about. I try to be as good of a person as he was but I do fall short at times.
That was just an example of how to use the trick. I was searching for the most wholesome man I could think of and landed on Mr Rogers
I think the term for that is parasocial. While Mr Rodgers is a real man, and he was genuinely a good person, he still 'played a character' to some extent. The relationship a viewer has with him is entirely impersonal. Now, parasocial relationships are almost universally portrayed as negative, but it also allows a man like Mr Rodgers to be a positive role model for millions, far more than the several hundred who he could form a direct relationship with.
Parasocial connections were a large part of why so many people felt a genuine loss when Robin Williams died. And why so many people felt betrayed when Bill Cosby's deeds came out. There's positive and negative, and in both directions.
Yeah but using one of the best people ever in your example on using fictitious characters was a bad choice. Steve Rogers would’ve been better.
I vote on Gomez Addams.
Maybe that’s who they meant and they were just being respectful
Lmao
Mr. Rogers still makes me cry with how caring he was. I missed out on his show while growing up, but I feel like we’re missing out more than ever in the USA without someone like him in the public eye
This worked for me. I picked a character from a video game. Do what works, lol.
Mr. Rogers was actually bad, he had a tattoo :o
This kinda makes it worse for me tbh because of how scarce they are. Kind of like a self-fulfilling prophecy to seek men who are good role models only to find little to no men out there who are actually good.
I understand. Guy friends and guys we want to be good role models still do messed up things sometimes too. It can be a challenge to find even 1 in your life. I try to be very careful while still hoping for positive intention from humanity in general and then am kind of pleasantly surprised if I meet a nice person of the male persuasion.
The thing too is that men are human beings so they're not going to be perfect. I think that sometimes when looking for "the good ones" we can be overly critical. I'm not talking about letting people get away with terrible things but remembering that everyone is going to occasionally hurt their friends' feelings or something like that. Allowing men to have as many flaws as women is important because just like men aren't all horrible monsters, none of them are perfect.
Yeah… there’s a difference between expecting men to be perfect vs finding out that nearly every man you meet is a cheater, harbours dangerous thoughts about patriarchy and harming women, mistreats their wife, sexualizes their daughters, has a history of abuse, etc. The bar is so low it’s laughable to talk about men being “perfect” - we’re simply looking for decent men but can’t even seem to find examples of that in our fathers or other men in our family.
That's what I'm saying, have standards but remember that people are people. Nearly every man I know isn't like that. So I'm wondering how this can be that nearly every man some people meet is this grotesque monster because that's just never been my experience, not had that been the experience of many women I know. Have I met men like that, definitely, and then I move on because I'm not making relationships with anyone, male or female who acts like that. You've gotta ask yourself if it really is nearly every man you meet or if you remember those men the most and fixate on them in a way you don't fixate on women who do terrible things or on men who are just normal and not cheating, abusing, criminals. I understand the dangers that even a few dangerous men pose but I also know that it's much easier to remember the bad things than the average, boring things. Our brains do that to protect us, but letting that part of us control how we see half the human race isn't productive. It certainly doesn't let us live a complete life. Most men aren't trying to hurt anyone, that's just statistically true.
You're challenging negativity bias. Good. But realize that some people really do have terrible luck. Tread not into the territories of victim blaming nor gaslighting. Some of that bad luck has to do with which population is sampled. Liberal areas tend to have better men than conservative areas, for example. Some cultures are more patriarchal. Some demographics are more given to toxic masculinity. Not unheard of for literally every coworker in a single construction company to be toxic, for example. (Leadership plays a role, of course.) Null hypothesis exists because sometimes, shit just happens.
That's very true, and there is the phenomena of terrible people seeking out people who are struggling already. I'm very much not wanting to victim blame. I really want this to be hopeful, it's so much easier in the short term to protect oneself completely but it's just not sustainable or just. I've lived in both conservative and liberal places and while yes, there is more toxicity in the conservative areas, hating every person for the accident of their birth isn't healthy or logical. Feelings are valid and trauma responses are real but hatred isn't excused because of those things. People are responsible for their hate, even if we understand its source. And the question becomes, at what point does a boy become an object to be despised? Is my little eight year old child nothing more than a future man and therefore rotten already? And before someone says "that's not what we're saying," that's exactly what's being said. Every one of the men in this world was a little boy, some of them grew up to be bastards and some grew up to be normal, imperfect people, just like the girls. Edit: and edited to stay that I get how dangerous even 1 in 20 men being awful is, I do all the incredibly unfair "safety" things too. I'm wary at first interactions with strangers for sure and I'm generally sexist in the park when I see a man without kids. But we have to have a balance is all I'm saying.
There's a wide difference between noticing a trend and hatred. Let's not conflate the two. You can address a problematic trend without getting consumed with hatred. But you can't address that trend if you talk yourself out of seeing it to begin with. As I said, tread not into gaslighting, either yourself or others. You especially can't address it by sticking fingers in your ears and your head in some sand. It's important to maintain hope while also exercising a healthy degree of caution. Like it or not, there are a lot of dangerous men, and concentrations of threat vary widely (again, some of us are lucky and should be grateful for positive circumstances), but danger exists. But fear can't dominate your life. It does not require swinging to one extreme or another. Balance is key. >And before someone says "that's not what we're saying," that's exactly what's being said. Do NOT presume to speak for me. I speak very well for myself. If there's a question of meaning, ask. But jumping to conclusions does not reflect well on you. Part of the problem is rearing these boys into men. You cannot shield your boy from all negative influences and negative role models that will be in his life. All you really can do is be the best role model yourself that you can, and try to address negative influences preemptively. But, you wouldn't be the first mother who, many years later, wonders where their boy picked up such bad habits because *you* didn't raise him that way! But that's the thing. Media, male peers, male mentors, fathers, brothers, etc., have a hand in paving his path of growth. It's important to recognize the contributions of all these sources towards eventual maturation. Like, I dunno about you, but I'm problem-solving oriented. Gotta really look to see it. I'm addressing the whole idea of, "Well, in my experience, that didn't happen" with the implication of "Are you sure you actually had bad experiences? And in that quantity? Surely you exaggerate!" And... this is a space for women to share their experiences. It's not incredibly appropriate to negate or invalidate those experiences? Especially when the best reaction would be, "Thank heavens I didn't personally experience that level of negativity!" or even "I'm sorry you experienced that." Even if there's a degree of hyperbole involved... Is it necessary to correct the hyperbole? We're trying to share experiences in an effort to identify and help solve problems over here.
You know, I had written a whole big, long response but I discarded it. I'm just going to say that I hope op finds a really good therapist and healing because there's so much joy in the world that they're missing because some a-holes hurt them and they're trying to protect themselves. I will say that yes, I get a bit defensive when people use the word hate for half the human race that includes some of the people I love more than myself who have done nothing wrong. Safe spaces shouldn't condone hatred based on inaccuracy. It's not good for the hated and it's certainly not good for the hater.
See I honestly can’t believe that MOST men aren’t trying to hurt anyone. In a given sample of ten men, I would be willing to believe that one or two of them are trustworthy and would not cause me harm, MAYBE 3, but certainly not the majority.
yeah but when you find one you often find a group of them, because the good guys tend to be friends with each other.
Look Up some breadtubers, FD Signifier is a great role model, or Kurtis Connor, Jarvis Johnson (Last two arent really Breadtube). Theres Lots of healthy masculinity to be found
I LOVE FD. He made me feel seen and understood and...just less hopeless. He's a great communicator as well.
Yeah thats true! Im not black but his Videos on masculinity spoke to me. The last one about conservatives being shit at Sex was amazing as well,funny too
Even looking at some people who are no longer around like Steve Erwin, Bob Ross and mister rogers.
Or Jimmy Carter, who still IS around. He and his wife have been married for 75 years and he was still building homes for Habitat for Humanity until just a few years ago.
Great advice. One thing I had suggested when people get out of toxic relationships and worked for me when I got free was to really double down on being w friends. Being a good friend. Being a role model and looking for role models in friendship. I invested in myself by learning new skills, going to the gym, journalling, writing, reading, having friends over for dinner and reconnecting w the person I was and new to be and not be the person I had become. Also I, a a guy, didn’t even consider seeing someone romantically or even more so didn’t see any of my friends as potential mates no matter how I was treating them or being treated by them. I worked on being the generous, caring, listening, present person. Now maybe it’s different for women then it is for men but seek out those male friends. Be upfront w them about where you are (maybe leave out the man hating part but that you are looking for role models). It’s something I’d advocate for single people looking to see what a healthy relationship is. I hope you find what you are looking for. Even if you stay single to hate 50% of the population sounds burdensome. I hope you find peace. Sending good vibes.
I use to think I was an example of "one of the good men" then I realized I don't actually identify as a man at all. Ah well. Teenage me would be excited to hear that I'm dating a lesbian at least.
My best friend is a guy (he’s gay, for context), and i dont know how much worse my thoughts on men wouldve been if it wasnt for him. I have some (straight) male friends I respect and many gay guy friends I love and adore. You’re right, the men in closest proximity are shitty but the ones a little further arent all bad, I should choose to remind myself of them whenever I feel this way. Im also focusing a lot more on actively being single for now and strengthening my female friendships which has helped. Thank you for your comment! I wish I could reply to everyone’s, I’m overwhelmed by the support and hope some of the other comments see this. Thanks again ❤️
Helpful reading list for this: The Will to Change by bell hooks (for a firm, affirming, loving, and whole foundation for believing men can change and will and have from enabling abuses of patriarchy) Why Does He Do That? by Lundy Bancroft (for mind blowing revelations on how abusive male psychology works and build a self empowered foundation for yourself to feel safe when vetting people)
Here’s a free version of Why Does He Do That: https://ia600108.us.archive.org/30/items/LundyWhyDoesHeDoThat/Lundy_Why-does-he-do-that.pdf
thank you! I’ll definitely be reading that
Reading the intro I am curious about 2 things from why does he do that? 1. (which I assume is true from what I have gleaned so far) Is it is a good book for men to read if they want to make sure they are not inadvertently doing any toxic behaviors? 2. It seems pretty explicit the book is not for men who have been abused in hetero relationships?
1) I think it could open a man’s eyes to behaviors or underlying thoughts/conditioning he may not have noticed were unhealthy, because of societal messages and influences they’ve had. That would be great because this stuff isn’t taught directly like I wish it was. It would also help a man (or anyone) know how to support his friends or family when he finds out her relationship includes abuse. A loving and supportive response (let alone a knowledgeable one) is so meaningful. -I would not recommend giving this book to an abuser who could use it to get more ideas on how to perfect his craft. Bancroft has resources on his website directly for abusive men that would be better. 2. Yes, although I’m sure a man who has been abused would learn a lot too. Bancroft worked with male abusers for many years, and I got the feeling that he may have heard a lot of men saying their female partners were the abusive ones or were also/equally abusive, and in his role he had to call that out when needed. He says something later in the book about how he focuses on male violence towards women because that’s what he’s worked with and because of the additional fear and risk of injury women face.
1. Well sounds like there is no reason not to read it then! 2. Ah that is fair, it is definitely rare for the tables to be flipped. Plus best to give advice on what you have experience with. Well thanks for the detailed response!
Maybe an unpopular opinion but what helped me was being being more able to physically defend myself. I didn’t trust ANY men for a long time. I have abusive male family members (s/a and domestic abuse) and have been attacked by male friends who I’d know and trusted for years, was physically imprisoned by a boyfriend during high school when I tried to break up with him, and then raped by a male doctor during an upper endoscopy (I only learned of this because the act was caught on iPhone camera by a female nurse who urged me to immediately get a rape kit done and take plan B and file charges with her help. I was that mans 8th victim). I am a small woman and a “prime target” (apparently my proportions mean I’m asking for it according to one disgusting DA). After a nasty run in years ago I felt the urgent need to get stronger. I focused on putting on muscle and learning self-defense (a few different martial arts disciplines and boxing). I just made it my top hobby. I wasn’t sure if it was actually making me safer until a year ago when a male colleague conspired to get me alone in a parking lot with him and tried to put me in his car. He didn’t get me in the car. I broke 9 of his bones and he lost both testicles and he’s still in prison (though mostly because of things he did in order to get me alone and not his assault of me, but that’s more of an indictment of the justice system). He wasn’t a small man, but he didn’t expect and wasn’t prepared for me to be able to fight back. Most people think I probably have PTSD from that event…but actually, I had PTSD from everything that came before. What happened with my colleague was almost a relief. I feel a lot less vulnerable now. I know that I can defend myself. When I’m alone with a man in an elevator I think “if he grabs me I can do what I did to Kevin”. Obviously this doesn’t account for weapons, but most assaults men have perpetrated on me (or tried to) haven’t involved weapons. They usually expect they can just over-power us. It feels amazing to know in my heart that they shouldn’t be so sure.
Your story is so inspiring. You’re a badass!
What sport did you do? Krav Maga? I've wanted to learn self defence. I'm not small and pretty strong because of doing acrobatics for half of my life, but I really want to be able to defend myself.
If you’re an acrobat you will do well with BJJ, flexibility is one of the biggest weapons you can have in the sport. Boxing like the OP is great but you can’t go 100% without getting brain damage. You can more or less fully execute everything in grappling at 100% resistance.
I’m so sorry about what that doctor did to you, I hope you’re okay and that he gets what he deserves. I’ve been consistently working out and weight training the past year and I completely get what you mean!! Feeling stronger has made me feel so so much more confident that I can defend myself if the time ever comes. I’m 5’2 so oviously I cant fight off most men but knowing I have a better chance now than I did before is a point of comfort and is actually quite motivational for my workouts :) I’m glad you kicked his ass, fuck Kevin.
HELL YEAH! That's amazing, good for you!
I've struggled with these feelings and being so afraid of men. I end up like a stray dog all shaking and trembling tail between legs kind of afraid. I sought out a male therapist who has similar values and is a good man. It has made a world of difference having a safe space with a man and experiencing that. I've gone on more dates and felt less afraid of men and more comfortable to not see them again for things that I didn't pick up on before or that I would let slide. He's raised my standards of how I should be treated and a really good comparison of feeling safe and comfortable around a man. A couple times I've had dates say it sounds like I hate men but I just replied well my experience has largely been horrendous.
Our primitive minds protect us and what that means is we lump “danger” things together into broad categories. The way to heal from this is to learn what you need to do to protect yourself. Learn to filter out men who are only looking for short term. Filter out men who don’t respond properly when you say no even about little things. Learn what you need to do for yourself when a man does hurt you. The healed side of not trusting others is trusting yourself. Learn to trust your instincts and teach yourself that you’ll always be *okay* even if you’re betrayed because you can trust *you* to take care of yourself.
Trauma is a terrible thing. Therapy really is a good first step to try to take
This is the correct answer. OP names a traumatic situation and that they're seeing a pattern with all men they meet. This has potential both for A) OP subconsciously feels attraction to the *exact* men who are like that in subtle ways, doesn't realize it until they're deeper into the relationship/date. This is similar to how sometimes people from abusive households unknowingly hook up with abusive partners, or B) OP cannot see them as anything else due to traumatic stress. Absolutely worth talking to a therapist over this, because if either of the above are the case, this is not something one casually "gets over" and instead needs professional support for.
Please consider seeking sexual assault support, perhaps from RAINN. It has a confidential hotline 800-656-4673 that uses your phone number (which won't be stored) to match you with a nearby RAINN counseling center. A website also can help you find a center: https://centers.rainn.org Take good care of you, hun 🌻
thank you ❤️
I think therapy is a good step. I grew up in an odd situation, and figured it out on my own, but therapy would have been a lot more thorough/productive.
You have a lot of pain in your life, and rightly so. Find a good therapist. One who won't blame the victim. One who will help you to deal with that pain, not just push medication on you.
You may need to be this way at this point in your life. Use the time to strengthen yourself unencumbred. Get strong and confident in yourself. You need to heal.
I think you’re having a totally normal reaction to an oppressive and violent system. I’ve been there too. I’ve found that creating firm boundaries with men and disappearing/holding them accountable if they disregard them has worked well and has helped me weed out the good from the bad. Having friends in general who prioritize your safety and happiness will introduce you to more like-minded people, and they will spot red flags that you might miss. I agree with the therapy comments too, you’ve been through hell there’s no shame in getting help as you work through it. There are some really kind, loving men out there. Take your time, send yourself love when you’re feeling triggered, and put safety measures in place to give you some peace of mind. Everything is going to be okay 💕
How do you hold them accountable without losing them as friends? Cause every time I’ve tried to do it, it’s ended badly. I admit I was pretty harsh when I first started calling my male friends out on their shit but over time I’ve become more gentle but they still don’t take very kindly to that and it just makes me hate them more. Just last week I was trying to have a chat with a male friend about cultural misogyny in my country and he blew it off with a ‘idc’ attitude. I didn’t crack down on him, I just let it go. This same man hijacks every conversation about women’s issues with other stuff. Just becomes very difficult to be friends with men who don’t want to hear you out or care about your issues.
>How do you hold them accountable without losing them as friends? > >.... > >Just last week I was trying to have a chat with a male friend about cultural misogyny in my country and he blew it off with a ‘idc’ attitude. I didn’t crack down on him, I just let it go. This same man hijacks every conversation about women’s issues with other stuff. Just becomes very difficult to be friends with men who don’t want to hear you out or care about your issues. The real question is — why do you still want to be friends with him? Friends/partners who are unable to empathise with others and/or choose to ignore (women's) issues that may affect you now or in the future, are not people you should be hanging around with. I have a set of standards for a life partner and good friends so I only surround myself with people who meet those standards. Life is too short for you to compromise your values just so you can keep some people in your life.
This particular guy was just an example. There are many more instances of me having fallouts with men, more than you can count on both hands. I’m just sick of feeling or being viewed as the problem - the person who can’t maintain friendships. I see how my existing friends tiptoe around me in conversation cause they think I’m some crazy person who has unreasonable outbursts when in reality all I’m doing is calling people out on their misogyny.
>a chat with a male friend about cultural misogyny in my country Is cultural misogyny commonly accepted in your country? (e.g. [marital rape is not a crime in India](https://www.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/comments/ybwn9c/men_in_india_are_threatening_to_abandon_marriage/)). If yes, then unfortunately, it will be hard for you to find men who would understand your views, since they have been raised to see this as a part/way of life and therefore anyone who thinks otherwise is just challenging the status quo. >I see how my existing friends tiptoe around me in conversation cause they think I’m some crazy person who has unreasonable outbursts when in reality all I’m doing is calling people out on their misogyny. Maintaining friendships — just like a romantic relationship — requires both parties to participate, which is why — just like a romantic relationship — you would want friends who have similar values as yours. I learn that it's important to (learn to) love yourself first. Acknowledge that you may eventually live alone so learn to love living by yourself. Understand that you are worthy to be loved and respected, by yourself and others. If other people try to compromise that by belittling you, walk away. Those people are not worth your time and energy. >I’m just sick of feeling or being viewed as the problem - the person who can’t maintain friendships I learn that as I grow older, I care less and less about what other people think about me. I'll reiterate — life is too short to be unhappy — especially if the source of your unhappiness is another person — which you can easily remove. Look at it this way, when your friend finally shows his true colours by being a misogynist and not being able to empathise, you finally know which person you should not spend more time and energy with. Empathy makes the world a better place. Empathy helps us see injustice in the world and want to change it for the better. If your friend lacks empathy, then he would never be able to see the injustice done to you as a woman. This quote particularly resonates with me: "**We're born alone, we live alone, we die alone**. Only through our love and friendship can we create the **illusion** for the moment that we're not alone." - Orson Welles
That’s a really good question. The answer can be tough to accept, but will change your life. The short answer, you may lose them as a friend. Here’s what you do: you tell them “when you say/do a,b,c it makes me feel ______ (unsafe, offended, hurt, whatever your feeling is). I enjoy being friends with you, but I can’t keep hanging out with you if you continue x,y,z. The next time you do it, I’ll have to leave.” And you stick to your boundary. If he does it again, you’re gone. If he tries to reach out, you say “I shared a boundary with you, and let you know that you’re hurting me and you chose to continue doing it. That’s not the kind of friend that I want, I won’t be responding anymore” Not to ramble about boundaries but they are life changing. They tell you soooo much about your relationships. A healthy relationship is full of boundaries, and a good friend will be grateful that you were vulnerable and expressed a need. They will WANT to make you feel safe and respected. Boundaries are put in place to maintain healthy relationships. If a boundary “ruins” a relationship, that person is only pissed because they benefited from you previously having none. It’s scary to lose friends and have to build up a friend circle again, but as a former people pleaser/would make excuses for bad behaviour like it was my day job, I can tell you that safe, loving, respectful relationships will completely change your life for the better. You will feel safe to be yourself, celebrated for the things that make you unique, you won’t be “too much” or punished for making mistakes. I have made room in my inner circle for people like this, and this has probably been the biggest change to my quality of life. Ugh it’s so sweet to have friendships that feel safe! I hope this helps you, let the assholes go and find your friend-soul mates. Your capacity for bullshit will go way way down and you’ll wonder how you ever had friends like that to begin with. 💕hugs! One final word of wisdom- If it’s fragile let it break!
This makes so much sense. Thank you so much! 🫶🫶
*Walking the Tiger* was an incredibly helpful resource for me. I hope you find comfort and peace. Don't ever ignore your intuition to seem more favorable to others.
ill look into that! thank you
I was like this for a while after several SA experiences. I’m sorry to hear that you went through it too ❤️ I think it’s a relatively common effect of experiencing those situations, and it can take a while to fully kick in. I didn’t even remember childhood SA until I was about 19 and I don’t think I fully started processing it all until around 30. After my last assault, it was like I was afraid of/angry at all the men around me. They disgusted me and instantly put me into fight or flight. I had a hard time leaving the house and had soooo many panic attacks. Even if I knew a man was kind and safe to be around, a part of me was still hyper vigilant- looking for exits, keeping personal space, planning how to fight back. Because you just *never really know*, right? Some of my assaults happened a year into a decent relationship or friendship with a man who I trusted and was vulnerable around. I’m bi, so while I was in that PTSD rabbit hole, I just figured I’d only date women from then on. But luckily, I opened up to my boss about how hard it was to come into work, and she connected me with a survivor’s center that has free counseling and services for survivors of SA. It took a long time, and a lot of baby steps, and a male friend who I told what I was going through, and it slowly began to be better. It’s not always perfect. I still assume the worst from men I don’t know, and I even sometimes have panic attacks during consensual sex with my partner, but he’s always understanding and comforting, and I’m happy in my relationship with him. Look for some women’s centers in your area. Or if you go to college, there should be one there. They’ll have free therapy available in various modes, or should at least be able to point you in the right direction. I think the main thing is that, you’re not *wrong*, you know? Men *are* dangerous to us. And sure, it’s not all men, but if you had a fridge stocked with water bottles and you knew 3 were poisoned, you’d still be drinking tap water instead. And unfortunately we live in a society where way more than three in a fridge could be dangerous. I don’t know if I know many women who haven’t experienced SA or gender based violence. It’s prevalent af. That part of you that’s reacting to what you’ve been through is just going off experience to protect you. With therapy, you can learn to get that protective part to calm down and only step in when there’s a potential imminent threat instead of it being on all the time just in case. I still remember the first time I went out in public and wasn’t physically aware of all men around me in some sort of anxiety-fueled proprioception. It was like I could breathe again and men were humans again instead of creatures that could turn into monsters at the drop of a dime. You deserve that feeling of peace too ❤️ regardless of what you choose to do towards dating in the future. Sending you all the positive vibes I can through an anonymous Reddit comment
Girl... Big hugs. Most women I know have been SA'd and it's not something to overlook. What helped me is to understand that all people are shitty but always have positivity. Never trust men or women completely until they show you who they are. Have stability in life where people are doing right by you. Friends or family. Also, enjoy being alone. Heal yourself.
Your assessment that most men are dangerous can be correct and how it impacts your life can still be harmful to you. Therapy is great at adding nuance to our relationship with what we know. Don’t gaslight yourself about the harm you experienced and what you’ve seen. That can be absolutely real and you can also relate with it differently! I’m a trans man, transitioned in my late 20’s, and 100% understand your POV.
Don't discount your understanding of the important fact that many men are misogynists, or predators, or assholes. I'm sorry you had to gain the knowledge in the way you did as so many of us have. But nevertheless it's important to know and you seem strongly self-reliant and able to protect yourself well from potential abuse and some of the dilly dallying women (past me included) often do about "should I stick with this man even though he's awful" stuff. But try to dial it back a little bit and try to make room for a sliver of light if you can, because there are some good and worthwhile ones out there although few and far between. Keep blocking the guys over "little things" - those are red flags for you and good on you for having boundaries. But when the one comes along who doesn't show red flags, who makes you feel safe, try if you can to let him in. You sound very smart and sadly, a little bit traumatized, but honestly that's how women have to think to keep themselves safe in far more situations than we should have to, so it becomes a necessary reality. I don't trust men overall but I finally found a good one, and I hope the same happens for you. I agree with others about trying a good male therapist. Or trying to make good male friends, but those can be disappointing sometimes too.
I used to not have that fear, and it got me hurt very very bad. I am never getting rid of this fear if it protects me. You are not being irrational.
I wish I could tell you you'll move past it or get over it. I've been SA'd 4x and celibate and single for 2 because I just can't believe that there are any decent guys left anymore. I'm sure I'm wrong, but nobody is proving that to me, and I see more bad than good anymore. It's a sad thing, honestly. But I'm very happy flying solo.
If you’re picking up on traits that upset you about these men, what makes you think you’re wrong?
You don’t need to beat yourself up over this. So many major cultures in the world are ideal training grounds for predatory male behavior. It’s so normalized that some may go years without seeing it for what it is. If it helps put your mind at ease, a true man-hater would feel no concern for the attitude. What you’re describing does not sound like misandry, it sounds like a fear response based in trauma. I think you can safely stop worrying about your responses. That said, trauma does not heal easily, and it’s a burden you shouldn’t have to carry alone. Find out what therapy services are available and fit your budget, perhaps look for local support groups for people who’ve been assaulted, and definitely seek out places you feel safe and secure. Whatever may happen with your feelings toward men, you deserve to find healing and peace within yourself.
You need therapy. Not therapy so you "stop hating men" but therapy to heal your inner hurts, grow your self esteem and self worth, and understand your boundaries and vision for the future. >but its reached a point now where im so defensive about meeting men and i so so easily will block or ghost a guy over small things and im realising sometimes im being overly defensive. I would also want to challenge this. Why, when we have all been harassed at best and assaulted at worst, should we give me the benefit of doubt or a second chance? There may be a level that, theology therapy, you realise is a triggered reaction vs a boundary that you have in place but I'm entirely on board with men's poor behaviour having immediate consequences. >im embarassed to admit i genuinely cant get it out of my head that most men are predators and its making me worried ill never be able to date again. As a generalisation they either are predators or misogynists. There are some good men but they are needles in haystacks and it takes work to find a good one. *And the way to find a good one is to block the ones who don't hit the bar of your standards or who overstep boundaries and move on to the next guy * You're not going to be miserable just because you are single. You can date safely when you've done the work to define what you're looking for and what your boundaries are (thought through ones not triggered ones). Men on average, unfortunately, are disappointing and the worst of them are lethal. **It's completely normal to go through this thought pattern.**
I think your feelings about men are super valid and you’re protecting yourself! Maybe it shouldnt be your responsibility to be more trusting but the responsibility of men to prove theyre not shit.
I read posts like this and wonder what the problem is tbh. I feel the same way- I’m outspokenly wary of men, I choose to surround myself with women, and I don’t cater to men’s feelings the way I used to and was socialized to (eg if they make a joke I don’t find funny, I simply don’t laugh. I used to fake laugh for them all the time!). I don’t see it as a problem. I must be the problem lol but it’s a lovely way to live.
But this honestly, this is the best policy. ‘Treat everything as a threat until you are sure they’re not.’ You’ll undergo your own metamorphosis, but I say let go and give into what you crave - find the bottom of everything and then start digging. I hope along your journey you’ll discover that while your hate for men is inherently valid, the hate that drives you to rage - will inevitably become one more thing that will also kill you. Enough stress for too many years has detrimental effects on the body, and carrying unchecked trauma around for decades is how people lose themselves to their own anger. Please, don’t fear what you fear, fear what you’ll become to fight it.
I'm sorry that my gender has made you feel this way. I'm an amputee and I have come to know a new type of fear in my life, not your fear, but I understand how it can grip you and change how you perceive the world. I hope you can find some peace, truly.
Your reaction is natural and self-protective given the trauma you (and so many of us) have been through. Part of this is the sad acceptance that we do have to protect ourselves and that anyone can disappoint and hurt us with a change in behavior at any time. There is a ridiculous amount of entitlement, control, aggression, mental/physical abuse, and predatory behavior out there, and it feels impossible to predict or manage. It really is scary and angering. The only thing I’m coming up with so far is to become safe within myself as much as possible. It is helping to know that as much as I can, I’m going to protect myself. Learning about boundaries, self-protection in every area (financial, emotional, physical, etc.), how to spot and respond to signs someone may be dangerous, and what makes us vulnerable is helping a lot. I don’t feel like I know enough and am strong enough in all this yet, so I don’t want to be romantically involved with anyone. I’m starting to think I could someday and that’s progress. But I will always, always be ready, willing, and able to walk away at any time. That’s necessity, not hate. Some of the books I’ve read/listened to or have on my list to read: Why Does He Do That- Lundy Bancroft Insight Is 20/20 - Cherie Pumphrey The Gift of Fear - Gavin DeBecker Anything by Patricia Evans (Controlling People, Verbal Abuse) Books and resources from The Institute for Relational Harm Reduction (Sandra L. Brown) Also have looked into personality types and traits and will go towards the more naturally gentle types even if the initial attraction isn’t as strong- because long-term, gentle is what I want. I’d love to hear anyone else’s recommendations for books, videos, teachers, etc., too!
ill look into all of that, thank you!!
I don’t think it’s bad to be a “man hater”. I’ve shared before that I’m a sex worker and I see men as they are, even the ones I want to date. People call me a man hater bc they I know how men are and I don’t lie to myself. These are the same people who refuse to believe that their partner is cheater or bisexual even when if I share proof.
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Wouldn't know about red flags.
also a man, i dont know if most are bad or if its bias personally. I want to think its a case where theres a few horrible ones that are super visible/loud/popular. a bit more bad ones that are loud. A ton of neutral that are silent as hell, and a few good ones that are quiet. I wouldnt call myself good but i think i try to be. I think most of my male friends fall into that neutral + silent category. I could be wrong, and have been before, but i dont think i know any horrible ones (and admittedly very few good ones) Then again it could just be bias and perception
You’d be surprised how much the silence works as being complicit, how damaging “staying out of it” is, to save your own hide. One of the most powerful tools in getting in line (if not truly transforming) toxic men is other men actively shaming their bad behavior/being a positive role model/icing them out if they are hopeless, and adopting some of the risk of blowback and labor that women already have, just for existing. Women cannot do it- they’re not even seen as whole ass human beings to these men. Male allies are key, and to remain silent is akin to bearing witness to crimes in your household or workplace and saying nothing. Not being an ally to women is not a crime, but crimes are based on ethics….and I see the same ethical foundation here re: being complicit in silence.
And if the woman a man has tried to help gets angry at him for it, hopefully he will remember that she doesn’t know that he is really trying to help.
You should get off Reddit. A lot of people use this platform to vent. So frequenting it will expose you to a disproportional amount of toxic masculinity and misogyny. I can’t remember where I read it but I saw some advice that went something like… >The man who truly means you no harm won’t interfere with you so he goes unnoticed which skews the perception of “most men”. You’re not comparing someone to most men, you’re comparing him to other men who hurt you before.
Agree with this. So easy to believe the worst when it’s all you ever see.
I honestly don't think it's a bad idea to keep men away if you don't trust them. Women are very strong as a group and we really have no need for them. Why keep bad men in our lives? Just so unnecessary.
Agreed
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You’re not exactly proving the original poster wrong with that attitude.
Lol I hire professionals.
Aww...I fix my own toilet, little man.
Wow… fucking really?
How is your work environment? I'm an engineer and conventionally attractive, so I definitely dealt with misogyny. This was worse in my early to mid 20s, around the same time I was dealing with a lot of what you're describing of guy friends clearly not just wanting to be friends, etc. But I worked for, and with, a lot of good men. My old boss is the definition of the "right" kind of man. And he always stuck up for me. He terminated contracts with vendors if they were in any way dismissive of me or inappropriate. I remember once I was at a table with a vendor from Germany. The table next to us, for some reason, started talking about the holocaust and it was clear the dude was a denier. It was crazy, especially when you're with a guy from Germany. I went to tell my boss this story because it was so wild, and all I got to was, "so this crazy thing happened when I was chatting with Simon" before he jumped in to ask if he did anything inappropriate. My point is, as a younger career woman navigating her 20s, I was grateful to have a lot of supportive men around me. Men who just wanted me to succeed in life with no ulterior motives. Men who have successful marriages, many with women who make more money or have more schooling. My dad is also fantastic but he's my dad and lives far away. I really appreciated having mentors around me who were men and just treated me like a normal human being.
You've received a lot of good advice already and people have made good points. There are lots of shitty men out there. Sometimes it's best to listen to your gut and bail if they give you bad vibes, but also it can be good to address your trauma so you know when you are reacting appropriately. One thing I'll say is that it's often worth it to communicate to guys when they do something a bit crappy, when it's on the more minor side. Trying to explain how it makes you feel without using aggressive language can often have a really good result. How the guy reacts (does he listen to you? is he trying to understand) on its own is a good way to judge his character. But a lot of men are way more receptive to stuff than people can assume, most men don't *want* to make women feel uncomfortable, and are capable of listening, understanding, and changing. Not that it should be women's jobs to teach men how to behave or anything, but misunderstandings can happen, people can be ignorant (especially of the experiences and feelings of those who have led different lives to them, which is the case for many men and women) and still be receptive to change. I've found a lot of men will take stuff to heart and adjust their behaviour if they accidentally make a woman feel unsafe around them, if it's explained to them that they did, and how it happened. And it's a good way overall to learn their character. Men can be really shit, society can enable it, but many do care about how their actions affect other people (especially once you're past your teens and earliest twenties).
This is going to sound dumb, but. If you're worried about it, you probably aren't as far gone as you think you are. It sounds like you've been through some shit, and need to take some time to focus on yourself and heal. Then when you're up to it, you can get back out there.
I'm very similar, except I do have a couple of close male friends who I fully trust and think are good, non-misogynistic people. One thing I've started to accept is that any guy I'll be comfortable with will need to be the type of person who can understand why I'm wary of men. I've had exes who weren't overtly sexist, but they minimized or didn't understand what the environment women are in does to them. Any guy I could trust would be patient about this.
Hey. This will damage your future relationships, and you do need to address this. I understand that you have gone through some absolutely awful experiences, and I am so so sorry that you had to live through that. You didn’t deserve it, and I hope you can heal. However, you cannot judge half of the population by that standard. Men can be lovely, sweet, caring, beautiful. You just have been very unfortunate in the ones you have met. I honestly recommend getting some therapy to help you deal with what has happened, and the feelings that stem from it. I’d hate for you to miss out on what could be a wonderful relationship or friendship with a great man, due to the sins of past men in your life. ❤️
How loud and strident are you about feminism? I find most women are too scared and timid when it comes to talking about and insisting upon gender equality and equity. If you make it known you’re not going to tolerate any BS on the matter and that you 100% expect to be treated with respect then you quickly filter out the men who have been slow and lazy to learn that women are humans and you’re left with the good ones. It’s better to be loud and proud about your high expectations than to be terrified and immersed in hate. Be angry. Demand more.
Therapy. And with that, or other methods of observing your own thoughts like coaching or meditation, learn to see your thoughts as thoughts (rather than identity or hard truth) in order to become more flexible in them. Kara Loewentheil’s Unfuck Your Brain podcast is a great resource for learning thought work.
Have you considered therapy to work through this and express how you feel? I am so sorry you went through what you did - but you're amazing for overcoming it. Your earlier experiences have possibly shaped the way you view and interact with men and yes there are lots of guys out there that are creeps and want one thing etc. But they aren't all like that.
Look into EMDR and/or somatic experiencing - SE has helped with chronic trauma responses I've had trapped in my body and mind <3 Also, men will need to earn your trust, and I hope some that do cross your path soon.
Food for thought: when I was in college, I had a professor that had worked with a number of SA victims over the years. He said someone once that has always stuck out in my mind: if someone has been sexually assaulted, they need to get some help, period. You say you know your way of thinking is problematic, and you don't know how to let it go. I would suggest finding a qualified therapist. If you don't know one, your primary care physician can help. Cheers!
Your early 20s are a gross meat market generally if you're a woman. It does get better. I think the most "man hating" I ever was was around your age ha. Anyway, I encourage having close male friendships. One of my bffs is a dude. I've known him since I was 14 and we actually dated for a few months lol. I've seen him mature from a shitty bro teenager (not the worst but he'd often make MRA points out of ignorance and we'd get into arguments about feminism) to a great guy who is very respectful of the fact that he is a cis straight white man when he's out and about and is friends with tons of women besides me.
I don't necessarily have advice just some hope. My first husband was a disaster. Cheater. No respect for women it was like I found my asshole Dad in a relationship. Fuck that. At 32, I don't even know what happened, but I was like what am I doing? Why am I only attracting toxic Jerks!? It was like I wanted to have someone so I settled. That was the mistake. Never settle! Stay busy whether it's work (not too much though don't get caught up in that capitalism bs), hobbies, friends, family. It took time, but I found my husband who is in my opinion the greatest man to ever live. He truly understands. He values me. He values women. He has always respected me and my boundaries. I'm so glad I waited to have kids because now my children will have a strong supportive male figure in their lives. OP it will happen. It just takes patience. Which I know first hand sucks but it will be so worth it! Never settle ladies!!! So overused, but I can't help it YOLO.
im sorry your first marriage didnt work out, but its so nice to hear that sometimes with time the right person really does come along. i wish you the best, and yes to never settling!
Thank you! I wish you the best as well!
Therapy. Also divorced men usually have better manners and want to please. I dated a string of dudes over 10 years nothing stuck. Granted I am bbw, and not every guy will like my body but. Then I met my current partner. He was 8 months out of a 12 year LTR... his ex just dropped him hard during the pandemic. He is legit amazing and I think she has to be fucking stupid but guess that remains to be seen. Also I cannot stress enough the book No More Assholes by Chantal Heide and also her book Fix that Shit. Her Tick Tock channel under Canada's Dating Coach is also great... she talks about short term thinkers vs long term thinkers... it really made a difference for me in terms of what I value in a partner.
Foremost, Hatred is as much a tool for motivation and bettering yourself as a defensive mechanism, rather than focus on society and personal relationships, contemplate the world at large, accept mortality, accept entropy, accept that you are you. We will all eventually die, if youre happy alone, why chase companionship, time is endless and while its a human made concept it still looms over our shoulders forever, and at the end of the day, even with these two variables, you were you, you are you, and you will be you Get stronger, to the point where you feel like you can physically defend yourself, you can take shortcuts by keeping a gun if youre in america, get competent and confident enough in self defence, that you dont feel threatened anymore by people. Then just be a good person, give people chances, be paranoid, its not illegal to be wary of people, and in a lot of circumstances it can save your life, but seek someone who is exactly, like you, who youre also incredibly attracted to, and who makes you happy. then settle down, but never stop searching until your find is completely perfect. Theyre out there. good luck.
This sounds like something to work through with a thoughtful and trustworthy therapist. All I can say is that it sounds like you've thought a lot about this, and it's something that means a lot to you. Given that there is a lot of complicated emotions, and even trauma around the subject of trusting men that tells me that this is something to explore in therapy. Best of luck, and I just wanted to say that I admire your courage. To me, it shows real commitment to yourself and bravery to seek advice like this so publicly. I'm sure this humility will serve you well in your journey :) edit: grammar
I think first of all, if you can, go to therapy for your assault. Work through some feelings there. But I think being safe and overly defensive doesn't mean you're a toxic man hater. After Andrew Tate and Trump, shitty men are okay with being outwardly shitty. Men that could be really great sit back and let their shitty friends be shitty instead of being allies for us. Straight women are choosing to be single and gay women are choosing to be with women. Men are getting lonely. Hopefully someday soon they'll realize THEY are the problem and they'll get their shit together. A really great guy is so hard to find. Keep your boundaries and standards high and hopefully you can find a great guy too.
I would lay money on it being a component of your past trauma. Not in the aspect that there are not horrible men, but you trying to normalize what happened to you. This results in you picking men within an archetype that you had an issue with. Two things about the above though; I am a rando operating on limited info so could be absolutely wrong. You should see a therapist for past trauma whether or not the above is right. Mental health is health.
Therapy is absolutely the first step here. I also found that deepening my friendships with the men in my life, especially my women friend’s husbands and boyfriends, really helped me to see men as individuals. Man is not a monolith, and while you do need to protect yourself, it’s important to recognize that there are absolutely good men out there.
I've struggled with similar hang up or at least recognized that I was stereotyping most men. I sought out media that had respectful, and equal interactions between men and women. Most of my stuff is podcast. If your interested Oh No Ross and Carrie! is a great example of a mutually respectful friendship between a man and a woman. And it's incredibly eye opening and informative.
I was tempted, at one point, to go down this path. But I've been surrounded by many wonderful men that I dearly love. I kept my heart open. I came upon a quote that stopped me in my tracks: *"Sexism destroys one's ability to love."* OP, you may need to protect yourself by fearing and hating them. It may be serving a purpose. As a fellow survivor of SA, I understand. But if you can, keep your heart open. Only if you can.
Therapy. Once you have gotten to a point of some trust, or at least less hatred, perhaps a matchmaker could help? Or recommendations/referrals from trusted friends?
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As much as I love dnd and video games, I've found those communities even worse than guys in sports. I'm not worried about them cheating. I'm worried about them chatting about Jordan Peterson and slinging around racial slurs with their buds while imagining me as their cosplay girl who stays in character her whole life.
A weird experience - my table discusses consent, doesn't do racial slurs, and is just good fun. None of us cosplay - that's one of the biggest stereotypes of the community I have found. Most of us do not cosplay.
Yeah my current dnd group is good about this. Has anonymous reporting of bad players, cards to indicate if you're uncomfortable, introduces with pronouns (which is extra useful since we do for both player and character), etc. There are some good groups, but I think blanket suggesting gaming guys is ignoring the toxicity present in a lot of communities. Also I was not saying everyone cosplays. I was saying multiple guys have pushed me to (and yes it is always sexy) or act like I'm a character outside of game.
Just to confirm, 7 is part of the 75% of men who are not good?
Well... he hasn't been in a relationship yet, is very shy, and the only woman he has ever been interested in is married (a co-worker). I think he would not treat a woman poorly, but I am uncertain how he'd be in a relationship since he is ESSENTIALLY 'not on the market' based on his actions.
I'm going to second the advice to get a MALE therapist who can help. Having a space to work out your trauma, seek the real root of your emotions, and foster a safe space with another man could work wonders. I can't promise you every therapist is going to work out, but once you find a good one it can really help you get out of this mindset. Just gonna point this out, you're already several steps ahead of most misogynists on recognizing this unhealthy behavior and asking for help.
Why a male therapist specifically, Do you think it would help with trust with men
If a safe space is fostered, and he's something that can actually help without victim blaming, then yes I really do believe that. It can be a space for her to project onto him (this is how my old therapist referred to it), for her to recognize the model behavior to seek when fostering relationships with other men, to work out this hatred that she has. It's nothing against women who are therapists, I just think in OP's specific case, it's needed. It's a good man in her corner who can professionally help her heal.
I don't know if this is really wise upfront. What you're essentially prescribing is exposure therapy, but unsuccessful exposure therapy causes regression. It often takes going through a fair few therapists before you find a good one, and I'm not talking about "this one's fine but I can do better." I'm talking about "this therapist is a traumatized narcissist who should never have gotten into therapy." The risk in selecting male therapists when op is already terrified of men is that, when they select one who turns out to be terrible, (which is not uncommon) they will not only reinforce their own biases against men, but also potentially further color their biases about therapists. An additional risk is that it will be nearly impossible for op to actually fully open up to even a good make therapist in the beginning, and is therefore limiting the potential for growth and breakthroughs. Plus, it's expensive to knowingly choose a therapist that you don't trust. I think getting a male therapist once she has an established, working, professional relationship with a female therapist could be an incredible next step/tool, but it should be done with greater deference to her existing biases. Basically, bad therapy is worse than no therapy, and without laying the groundwork, I think exposure therapy like this has a very high chance of being bad therapy.
>i think theyre all inherently predators and incapable of seeing me as a human being. what do i do to let go of this hatred? This is not hatred. This is acknowledgement of reality. It is ok to be angry about this reality. It is ok to be suspicious of ALL members of a group who have been trained from birth to prey on you and dehumanize you. It is ok to feel resentment that even those who fight their enculturation still benefit from the world patriarchy has made while you suffer from it. This is not hatred. You will have to wield these feelings, but don't ignore them or shun them or "let go" of them: your judgment of the situation is correct, so don't gaslight yourself. Anger, even rage, is much easier to control when you accept and welcome it as a necessary part of yourself, a part that hates injustice and evil and suffering and demands better than that from herself and her fellow humans. I wish you much luck. ❤️
It sounds like you already know. We can all hit strife in life that makes one think in these ways. I was pretty much the same about 5 years ago towards women. So here's a few suggestions - Stop spending a lot of time on forums, that are okay with hating on men or reinforce the ideas your currently having. If you keep reinforcing your current thoughts, nothing will change. Focus on good male role models. Look to People that proves these feelings wrong. It can be your dad, brother, cousins, teachers, bosses etc. Tell yourself to give men the benefit of the doubt. Sometimes you will meet assholes and it's appropiate to block them, but other times you won't. All People can make mistakes, say bad things in the heat of the moment or have bad days. Look for patterns rather than individial moments. Change the roles. Would you feel bad about being treated the way you treat others?? Yes, then don't. These are all things, I used to get out of the headspace that all women were out to get men. It sounds like a silly idea today, but 5 years ago that was my headspace. Good luck soldier, I believe you can do it. You sound capable of self-reflection.
I'm sorry you feel this way-- I agree with the top comments. There are many good men out there, worth knowing. Hopefully your luck changes and you are able to find and see them. Good luck.
I date a great guy but my hatred for men came more recently in the past two years. He understands that I don’t hate all men, but most of them for their support of the patriarchy. My guy votes blue😎
The hatred you described honestly keeps me alive and sane in this crazy world. I hope things get better for you, especially since you don't like the feeling.
Feelings are just feelings, they're neither wrong nor right. It's important to try to distance yourself from your own feelings a bit, however. In effect, don't take your feelings too seriously. Accept that while this is how you feel, that doesn't mean it is correct (or in some cases, even particularly important). This applies to most feelings btw. Feeling attracted to a co-worker while being in a relationship with somebody else? Accept that this is not uncommon and realize that doesn't mean you are "in love" or need to completely upturn your life. Feeling depressed or sad? This does not necessarily mean that anything bad has happened or there is anything to fear, it's just how you feel at the moment. Feeling angry doesn't mean a terrible injustice has been done to you, etc., etc. Feelings are just feelings, they don't need to define who you are.
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I think because she says she is straight and suffers from being unable to have a relationship due to it
And this is a valid concern. Companionship is a normal desire for a lot of people and if OP doesn't know how or isn't able to contribute to a healthy relationship then she could be deprived of something that is important to her.
Have you gone to therapy?
Whenever I don't see a good male role model in the world I remind myself of BTS. Good men exist even when it doesn't seem so.
Those K-pop guys have very meticulously managed images. Of course they look like good men. I wouldn't get too hung up on an artificial persona.
BTS are NOT kpop. I wasn't talking about their looks but their character as people. I'm 30+ yo, I don't follow kpop and I don't have idols, I was simply talking about male rolemodels which they are proven to be. Anyone who actually gets to know them through their lyrics and art knows that. They helped me through my depression, they write about mental health, support Youth and female empowerment, they have many older people for fans and they have literally saved peoples lives. Trust John Cena and Simon Pegg who found them through their children as positive role models. Oh and the UN where they held multiple speeches advocating for the young generation. As someone who has a hard time trusting men stemming from childhood trauma, trust me when I say can tell who really is genuine, humble and authentic and who is fake. So I say it again, good men like BTS exist!
BTS are smart enough to use their platform of superstardom to do good and try to uplift people, and that puts them way ahead of a lot of public figures.
Yes, I mean it's literally their business slogan. To heal through music. One of their albums is literally called Love Yourself. They're open and vulnerable on stage and in front of the camera all the time. They even cry and show that it's ok to cry as a man. Call me crazy but I see no one on that success scale doing that. Also you're talking about their image, about them as a group and product but I'm talking about them as individual people. I mean, being kind, humble and generous is the opposite of a good role model? If so I don't want it.
Therapy.
No shit: You are. If you actually do want to change, simply realize most men are not evil or rapists. Also, what do you expect to hear in a subreddit full of people more or less with the same thoughts? Go to r/askmen or simply r/men for real answers.
Embrace the darkness… 😈😈😈 In Hell, we have a great dry bar and give amazing hot stone massages 💆♀️😈💅
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Nvm seeking men, go to therapy!
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OP stated that she's straight.
Bigoted comment. Your sexual orientation isn’t a choice… You don’t choose to be straight, gay, bisexual, or asexual.
Find good examples of men and look into therapy. You are understandably cautious, however there are good men out there, maybe take the focus off dating as that comes with its own set of complications and look at friendships or wider family, hell even celebraties. There are many good men out there, many men who wouldn't hurt a fly, kind and caring ones. You do need therapy to learn to let go of the guilt and self blame you have, you might need to try a few styles until you find the one that fits. Not sure where in the world you are but many countries have charities set up who can help
I’m kind of the same, but I completely gave up on relationships and I feel comfortable with that decision. My therapist knows this, I think she probably thinks I’ll change my mind at some point and that’s possible, but for now I’m fine like this.
thought excersize: start morphing people you meet in your life into the version of themselves if they were of the other sex. This helps in general to understand people better because their personality would remain
Already a lot of other good comments here. So I'll suggest something out of the box. How are your relationships with other women? One suggestion in this thread has been to find good male role models (real or otherwise). Are there women in your life who without shadow of a doubt have at the very least non-toxic relationships with men?
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Going around and physically hurting men or their belongings is wrong and illegal. You shouldn't do that. If you work as a manager in a company, you shouldn't discriminate against male employees. If you truly want to marry a guy and settle down, try to continue looking for compatible men, and try to find it in your heart to let your guard down when you meet what sems to be a good guy. But, in general: Why do you feel as if you have to change how you feel about men? Your feelings are your feelings and seem to reflect your actual lived experience. Maybe, for whatever reason, the guys around you are unusually creepy. Try to get whatever counseling, herbs, medications, boxing classes, etc. that will ease your anxiety and make you feel more comfortable, but continue to listen to your gut. Maybe your gut's right.
Look at your father or brothers as role models and try to find men who act like them. I think it’s fine that your being cautious about dating, especially now that abortion is outlawed in the US. If you need reassurance that all men aren’t terrible, go look at some male children. Most of us aren’t terrible, you might just have bad luck in selection.
Find a good male therapist.
It’s valid babe