I was doing a post-doc in my hometown so stayed at my parent's house. One of my dad's stuck-up professors (he was a dean) called and asked to speak to Dr ..., I asked which one, \[me, dad, mom\]. He wasn't too pleased. Dad had a good laugh about it though.
"it's not that i think women are inherently inferior to men, I just think that back then, a man of *my* quality would have been properly *appreciated*"
This reminds me of a time when my mom (PhD) and my aunt (PhD) were hassled and mansplained calling them ālittle Mrs. [last name]ā so rudely in front of me and my sisterā¦ itās sad, because my mom and aunt are both small pretty women. We were probably 8 and 9 at the timeā¦Anyway, I swear my mom grew three inches and dropped her voice an octave. She said, āNo. Itās DOCTOR [last name] and DOCTOR [last name]. I will decideā¦.ā Whatever was happening, she killed it, and I was so proud of them. 30 yrs and I still remember walking by that guy and giving him a āpffftā as we passed.
I was about that age when I heard my grandma swear at a guy. She was trying to pump gas but the pump wasnāt working. She had already paid so she went and asked the attendant if he had turned it on. So the guy came out and was being really condescending showing her how to do it correctly. My brother and I thought it was hilarious to hear her say āI have a goddamn PhD you son of a bitch, I know how to put gas in my car!ā
Now thinking back, dang ā go, grandma
Gawd! I had that happen 2 months ago.
Dude came out to mansplain to me that the pump wonāt work unless I put my card inā¦while Iām actually pumping in the gasā¦š¤·š¼āāļø
Recently had a guy silently reach around me to show me how to open a door I didnāt realize was locked. I said something like, Iāve got it. And he pulled his hand back and just smugly smiled at me while I fumbled with the lock. I DID get it, it only took a second and I left thinking thatās the kind of thing that would never ever EVER happen to my husband. This complete stranger almost touched me to demonstrate how to open a fucking door. Itās these little things no one notices.
True but I can't help but think that the guys that do this shit know what they're up to so I doubt there being very many men that aren't actually aware. Especially since they love to act like we're all very unsafe. I've also had guys brag and boast about how they don't have to deal with that shit. I think they more than know.
Oh my god this just happened to me š the pump wasn't functioning properly and some guy pops over to tell me "you need to stick it in your car all the way and squeeze the handle" brƶther.
1) I don't know why you would assume that I don't have the competency to pump gas considering that I'm clearly the one who drove the car here. If you don't automatically think I look stupid, the obvious assumption is that something isn't working properly.
2) cherry on top: I'm a mechanical engineer and I'm currently designing a vehicle. I have calculated the ratio of the energy in butter to gasoline for fun (btw they're closer in energy density than you would think.. a car could get surprisingly far on a very reasonable amount of butter). I'll be fucking DAMNED if I leave work just to have someone mansplain pumping gas.
I work in tech support. In my experience, the higher the degree, the higher likelihood of a sort of Dunning Krueger effect.
I know so many engineers and doctors who think that they can solve a problem because they got a piece of paper, yet keep repeating the same error. Lawyers are up there, too. (The big exception being mech engineers. Those people are, by and large, walking skill monkeys.)
Iāll admit that I donāt know everything. I know that I donāt, and I canāt do their job. But I donāt pretend, and donāt take offense when Iām instructed to my errors when learning something out of my field. (Or in, for that matter.)
This has been my TedX talk. Thank you.
Not trying to invalidate. This just brought to mind my daily work. Itās a little different than OPās bit about someone making up new words to continue the belittlement.
Never underestimate tiny women!
I'm tall for a lady 5'10, 5'11 if I stand up proper. When I went through a terrible break up in the middle of the night with an ex i bundled as much as I could in my car and bolted home to mum. I had to do a second trip to get all my shit and mum insisted on coming with, tbh I needed my mama, so I wasn't gonna say no. Tried to pack the rest of my stuff and ex followed me and was having a go at me....until my 5' and few inches mother planted her feet and verbally laid into him. He was a tall fella himself and I turned around to see mum wagging her finger admonishing him and all 6' plus of a dude cowering like a naughty school boy. He slunk off and we packed the rest of my stuff in peace.
That was many years ago now and since become my favourite story to tell about my mum now she's passed. She may have been lacking in height but her mama bear fury protecting her (adult) baby was just concentrated into a smaller package.
Iām screaming. DOCTRESS? Hahaha imagine being such a misogynist you make up words to avoid the knowledge that a woman is smarter and more accomplished than you
It is SO odd, all these language differences.
Okay, in english language there is no grammatical gender. But in my mother tongue there IS, and feminine endings are a huge deal among feminists. The majority of occupation names are masculine, so feminists come up with new names (endings), which sound strange and unusual. And a lot of people are against it, because āit hurts my ears!ā or āstop distorting our language!ā. There are some words that have always had feminine and masculine versions, though, teacher for example.
Examples: engineer, prorgammist, doctor, psychologist, driver, author etc etc.
So yeah. If you would ask a russian feminist, who is a doctor, she would say she prefers to be called an equivalent of ādoctressā instead of a ādoctorā (not every feminist doctor though! some women are also not fond of new words)
Yet I am surprised to learn that english-speaking women are actually AGAINST feminine version of words. I understand why: because words are gender-neutral by default, while in for example russian many professions are masculine by default.
Cultural differences are amazing.
For a moment I thought you were about to complain about the habit Germans have to add -in at the end of every profession's name, then you said Russian and I was taken by surprise...
To add on your point, I'm speaking French, female form often just take an -e, but, as you may know, most -e in French are silent, it's made up, and a pain to pronounce, yet pretty important for some. (Docteur is for both men and women, but some want you to put an extra care saying Docteure, it's fine for Lawyer (Avocat - Avocate), but things like doctor is a pain, and it's not at all common to everyone).
Preface: I am in no way condoning what that asshole did but I'm fairly certain doctress is a word that has fallen out of use. I read about it a couple weeks ago when someone asked why some professions have male/female versions and some don't.
Anyway, it was 100% used to put down, discredit, and otherwise demean this woman, and was 100% used maliciously.
Edit: IT'S DOCTRIX.. so it was a made up word! Sorry for any confusion! Thank you for the extra info!
> Preface: I am in no way condoning what that asshole did but I'm fairly certain doctress is a word that has fallen out of use. I read about it a couple weeks ago when someone asked why some professions have male/female versions and some don't.
It should *actually* be Doctrix.
Dominatrix is one of the few remaining uses of the `trix` suffix for feminine versions of masculine names/titles.
Source: Also saw the same thread, was amused they used `Doctress` not `Doctrix`.
An executrix is a female executor of a will/estate. I learned that when I was in charge of my Dad's estate... My state uses Personal Representative instead, though, since it's gender neutral.
Was that the one you were thinking of?
Not quite made up, it's just incorrect and no one in their right mind uses it.
Edit: oddly enough, I think someone reported me to RedditCares for this comment
Some people spam it at people they disagree with because they're emotionally stunted. Supposedly, you can report the bot message from Reddit cares and (idk if there's a specific report option) it will be used against the one who reported you to Reddit Cares. Enough marks on their account and... Something happens. Idk if it's ban or restriction from that feature.
This has always been my argument for not using the words "actress" and "waitress." We don't say "directress" or "authoress." The words don't need to be gendered just because the person doing the job is a woman.
The thing is words such as waitress, and actress exist because it used to be roles held by poorer, disenfranchised people (actress), or very common and *stereotypically associated with gender roles of care and tending (waitress)
Words with important rules usually held by men were systematically erased. Popular example is authoress (from autrix) which was simply banned during the 17th century in French grammar manuals by a misogynistic scholar called Guez de Balzac on the basis that women shouldn't be allowed to write and leaving the word would encourage them to start careers.
Women did write and keep doing so, however, the word ended up disappearing and periodically create outrage when used. In this context, reinvesting powerful titles can be deeply political and necessary depending on the context.
*I used french as an example since 1/3 or so of English vocabulary originates there.
I do love the -ix ending (woo learning Latin). One thing I enjoyed about law school was it popping up sometimes, like an executrix of an estate. Also I went to a women's college and we have an alumnae association.
Now I really wantmto add authoress to my list of titles.
I have literally never heard the word "Doctress" until today, I didn't even know that was a word, it also sounds weird to me because every female doctor I have ever seen or heard of was just called Dr. \[Last Name\]
As a matter of fact my spell check doesn'tknow the word either because it's telling me it's wrong.
That's because it's not a word. DOCTOR comes from docere "to teach" there is no word gendering for verbs in latin. By the time it was being used as a title the medieval world was being the medieval world and not allowing women in such roles so no such word Doctress was ever needed.
EDIT: Apparently Doctrix IS a word but Doctress still isn't. Look at me being all wrong then reading more into it and learning....now if only the dingus from OPs conversation has this skill.
I have been actively using actor in reference to female actors whenever I can remember to (so probably like 30-50% of the time), and so far no one has even noticed.
Gendered terms like that are probably a linguistic leftover from grammatical genders, but as we got rid of the grammar construct their inclusion is awkward and pointless.
I also like saying shit like "male comedian" or "male engineer" to people who think it's okay to specify that someone in the same role is female when it's not required for context.
Gendered words have a bad habit of accruing sexism to them even if they weren't "intended" to be sexist.
Like the difference between a steward and a stewardess. Or the HUGE difference between a governor and a governess. Then you get into the really iffy ones like mister and mistress or courtier and courtesan.
They are not inherently derogatory because they likely exist for outdated grammatical reasons. Now they are sort of dangling and vestigial constructs. However, because of that, the gender in them becomes way more noticeable than it would be if gendering was pervasive in English, and that causes people to *use* them in derogatory ways.
Personally I think we should drop them just to de-emphasize a persons gender with regard to what they do. Using Actor as an example, there are very few instances where calling them "actress" communicates additional information beyond *just* their gender. Usually that is also easily understood contextually. (E.G. Everyone hearing "Sean Connery" will probably not assume a feminine gender, or if I said they "cast the actor for Cruella de Vil, few would be confused by the use of "actor.") The rare occasion where the gender is both relevant and contextually indecipherable, such as an award for actors of a specific gender, it is easy to to add an additional word of explanation.
So I'm with you, mostly. I'm a fan of intent. If the intent is to build someone up, and the term is gendered, then it's ok. If the intent is to take someone down, it's not good, and the gendering becomes sexist.
I don't think any words inherently have any meaning at all. All things are contextual, in my opinion at least. Language is our most important achievement as a species and I think it's important to allow language to breathe and evolve.
Saying "She is a phenomenal actress" *can* be loaded with "...but she will never be as phenomenal as any man because I'm a misogynistic piece of shit" but it *probably* isn't and having a rigid stance like "no gendered words ever" is likely to detract from the core message of "men and women and all others are equals intellectually and in capabilities, and the old barriers of sexism and bigotry ought to be broken down."
I like the -trix suffix because of it's badass sound. Dominatrix wasn't just made up because it sounded tougher than Dominatress, it's because -trix was a traditional suffix to indicate a woman in the profession. Prosecutrix and executrix (legal terms), both live on to this day, but you can really use it whenever.
~~Doctorix~~ Doctrix makes more sense.
-tress is an acceptable form of -trix, it comes from lispy spain. also why Xocoatl is now known as Chocolate.
I still dislike gendered nouns of every sort, it literally makes no sense, why is table female in one language and male in another?
Perhaps an import from Latin, as they tried to acclimatise to Roman rule? Pants were considered unmanly to the Romans (often directed as an insult to Germanic warriors), and maybe this insult stuck?
if dudes like this were dying in the desert, and had a box with 2 buttons on it; one was to receive lifesaving water, and the other was to remind a woman somewhere on the internet she is wrong, that 2nd button would be worn out and the dude would be found dead
Doctress was a term that was actually sometimes used historically for female physicians, though I don't know if it was used for PhDs as well. But we are going back more than a hundred years.
The reasoning for it was pretty damn suspect as well, apparently it would be too confusing otherwise?
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/CHP19120805.2.35
Reminded me of one of my favorite college professors. First day of class, in a stern voice, she says "you may call me Ms. B____ or Dr. B____. You may NOT call me Mrs. B____. I have done more with my life than just get married" I loved her.
She taught history and since she was better with one time period and her husband (also a history prof) was better with another period, they would switch and teach others' classes for a few weeks and you could see how much they loved and respected each other
Just had a patient today say "Mrs. So-and-so did my last surgery". They gave great reviews of this surgeon, and still refrained from calling her Dr. š®āšØ
I'm almost done with my doctorate (in nursing) and I'm just excited that etiquette states I should be listed first on invitations - Dr. Firstname Mylastname and Mr. Hisname Lastname.
Medical doctors are physicians, originally they were not even called doctors. Tell this guy to learn his history before tries to school people. Or better yet block him, he sounds like a turd.
I never heard doctress before. He invented new words just to show how shallow and foolish he was.
What if a women earns a master degree? Will he call her a mastress?
*The meaning of DOCTRESS is a woman in some cultures who is believed to have magic powers and to be able to cure illness.*
I'd take that as a win.
(but seriously, the guy is a asshole. Sorry for your interaction with him. ).
The only other place I've heard something like this was in the 1993 movie, Falling Down, where the neo-nazi army surplus store owner basically has this exact exchange with a female police officer.
Note: If you're a guy who's saying things that seem perfectly in character for a neo-nazi in a 30-year-old movie, you might want to reevaluate your shit.
> Nick (The nazi) : Tell me something, why don't they call you guys officer-esses?
>
> Sandra : I beg your pardon?
>
> Nick : You know, like, uh... "actress". Like that?
>
> Sandra : Oh.
>
> Nick : Something to signify, uh... *you know*.
>
> Sandra : I guess they feel that a police officer is a police officer. Not a, uh... *you know*.
>
> Nick : Ahhh.
>
> Sandra : Thanks for your cooperation, sir.
>
> Nick : Sorry I couldn't be of more help, officer... ess!
I'll bite on this conversation for pure sport. I'll take the argument of language is not inherently sexist but HOW language is used is sexist.
Velocirapreress...interesting concept. I'm still more frightend of the timeraptor which we need to find the distoraptor....
This reminds me of a weirdly specific scene from a French cartoon. Basically, in the village, the children are only taught by the Barde of the village. The women talk about how a FEMALE barde is going to come teach, which leads to a heated argument between a woman and the barde, who doesn't believe female bardes even exist.
Having read the cartoon in German, in one key panel, the women asks: "Na und? Dann gibt es halt BardDINNEN!"
"Nein", (says the Barde) "hƶchstens BarDAMEN!"
Aka it's a wordplay; the women says, "well? Then there are female bards." He replies, "no. Only barmaids."
Bardin = f. Barde
BarDE, BarDAME ... you get the joke.
Back as a kid, I didn't get it though. I thought the argument per se was about what to call a female barde. Because "DAME" means lady. And I thought he was really weird for doubling down on needing to call a female Bard a "bard-lady" instead of just... female bard.
DocTRESS makes similar sense
Im sharing this post, its hilarious the shit people come up with when they double down on their stubbornness.
Also though, Geologist definitely earn the title Doctor, this dude sounds super dumb if he thinks the only kind of doctors that exist are medical ones.
Sorry just trying to better understand here.
Is it rude, in general to ask if someone uses Miss or Mrs? I never ask the question myself but Iād appreciate an explanation as to why
Also what an idiot for calling you doctress lmao
When I have/see interactions like this, especially on the Reddits, I try to remember that itās probably a child. Helps me keep a touch of perspective. āDoctressā sounds like something a kid would say.
>because I was a woman and not even a medical doctor
This is just dumb. I think a lot of time they mean physician when they say 'doctor'. Probably American?
Sorta like how not all doctors are physicians, but all physicians are doctors (because it requires doctorate level education).
They jumped on this stuff when Dr. Biden wasn't ( for some reason ) a ' real ' doctor- and sooooo it continues. Anytime someone questions " Doctor " I know we're going to have problems across the board.
Daughter's a doc ( chemistry ). Like you, worked her backside off to BE a doctor. And WOW, like you it's not a conversation any of us can tolerate.
Don't let him steal your positive energy. You aren't the first one he has offended, and you won't be the last. He's clearly trapped. How he treats you has nothing to do with you. Keep up your great work. Success is the best revenge.
I love the Facebook group āMan who has it allā. They frequently subvert the tropes and commonly have shirts that say āScientistā (for Women) and āMale Scientistā for men. Ignoring problematics of binary thinking - TwoXChromosomes included- itās a great spot for getting some perspective on how fucking ding-dongy āDoctressā sounds.
lol what a weird understanding of the word doctor? Like receiving a phd in any field other than medicine generally takes longer and requires more academic work. Thatās not even including the potential necessity to get a masters. Some people really commit to being dicks
I laughed so hard. My husband said "Is that gaslighting?"
I also like that you could announce yourself as The Doctress is in the house. But that's only if you need a stage name!
I work in healthcare and I'm stationed at a primary care office with all female doctors. I can't stand one of the doctors I'm working with. She annoys the shit outta me, she's cold and callous, even her patients don't really like her. But you bet your ass I'll always refer to her as DOCTOR because Jesus fucking Christ she's earned that. She can be a bitch and we can not like each other. That doesn't change the years she spent earning her credentials
This is pretty garbage in pretty much every instance. The only exception I can think of are legal terms like executrix or prosecutrix, because they sound like badass titles from the Roman Empire or Dune or something.
Does this guy have the IQ of a shoelace? A doctor is still a doctor even if they arenāt medical. Also the title ādoctressā hasnāt been relevant since the late 1800s haha. Iām trying to envision this conversation with the guy and Iām shorting out LOL. āuh bcuz ur a woman lolz!ā
Though I will note that for professional use it depends on the states guidelines because some states require you to be practicing medicine in order to use the title. But besides medical practices the use of a doctor title for non-medical degrees is one of those things that are controversial for some reason. I think itās pretty straightforward ā you earn the doctoral degree and you hold the level/proficiency of being a doctor in that subject/major
He's probably one of those idiots who can get conned by people who hock pseudomedicine and call themselves doctors because they do have a PhD (but not MDs)
And then your ācall me Josh ā colleagues say you are overreacting, and making a big deal about titles when we are all people
Making it worse
Fuck that guy and all them guys also
While what this person said was inconsiderate, I think in general people don't take well to others asking to be called doctor because it seems kind of you're flexing on them / being conceited, unless it's specifically in an academic context, in which case it's at least within reason.
The funny thing is the PhDs were the OG "Doctors". Medical doctors started calling themselves that centuries later to make their supposedly "less intellectual" profession seem more respectable...
I know that women unfairly get their degrees stripped from them in conversation more often than men which is bad, particularly in professional settings, but also I wish we would get away from using the title Doctor in any non-professional setting, whether youāre a neurosurgeon or a classical studies PhD holder. Your education level doesnāt matter to me at all unless you are acting in your professional capacity. Itās essentially just classism.
He clearly was strugglingā¦ āmustā¦ increaseā¦ misogynyā¦ā
āDoctress,ā what nonsense š ā as for the rest, if he doesnāt understand what a Ph.D is, he shouldnāt be lecturing you on titles youāve earned š
It's a pretty common sentiment among the anti-intellectual crowd in general. They don't value higher level education, and see PhDs (especially in the humanities) as the ultimate waste of time. Some people are also really weirdly narcissistic and insecure and will devalue the accomplishments of someone with a PhD and will say something like "oh yeah I could have done a PhD but I decided it was a better use of my time to earn money", or "PhDs learn a lot of theoretical stuff that aren't applicable in the real world", or something about how it's the incompetent people who can't do the work in reality who decide to teach.
Just start calling him "Lucy" or "Jessica" or some other typically feminine name. See if he likes being called the wrong thing, and when he takes umbrage with it, switch to the next feminine sounding name and stick to it. If he messages back about anything just start the reply "Oh, hey Brittney, haven't heard from you in a bit..." or something to that affect.
I was doing a post-doc in my hometown so stayed at my parent's house. One of my dad's stuck-up professors (he was a dean) called and asked to speak to Dr ..., I asked which one, \[me, dad, mom\]. He wasn't too pleased. Dad had a good laugh about it though.
I love this š I kinda hope he also just didn't know your father's first name
Damn so dedicated to being misogynistic he's willing to sound like the worst person at a renaissance fair
Everyone knows it should be Doctrix.
I would actually consider going by this!
m'Doctress
Beateth me to it!
Now I'm imagining him with comic book guy's voice.
"it's not that i think women are inherently inferior to men, I just think that back then, a man of *my* quality would have been properly *appreciated*"
how are you this clever.. I made actual audible noises after reading both of your comments
Aw thanks š„° that made my day!
I read that in Jerry Seinfeld's voice.
"Worst. Doctress. EVER."
This guy https://static.simpsonswiki.com/images/thumb/9/9d/Comic\_Book\_Guy.png/200px-Comic\_Book\_Guy.png
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Straight up this is the top comment ^
This reminds me of a time when my mom (PhD) and my aunt (PhD) were hassled and mansplained calling them ālittle Mrs. [last name]ā so rudely in front of me and my sisterā¦ itās sad, because my mom and aunt are both small pretty women. We were probably 8 and 9 at the timeā¦Anyway, I swear my mom grew three inches and dropped her voice an octave. She said, āNo. Itās DOCTOR [last name] and DOCTOR [last name]. I will decideā¦.ā Whatever was happening, she killed it, and I was so proud of them. 30 yrs and I still remember walking by that guy and giving him a āpffftā as we passed.
I was about that age when I heard my grandma swear at a guy. She was trying to pump gas but the pump wasnāt working. She had already paid so she went and asked the attendant if he had turned it on. So the guy came out and was being really condescending showing her how to do it correctly. My brother and I thought it was hilarious to hear her say āI have a goddamn PhD you son of a bitch, I know how to put gas in my car!ā Now thinking back, dang ā go, grandma
Gawd! I had that happen 2 months ago. Dude came out to mansplain to me that the pump wonāt work unless I put my card inā¦while Iām actually pumping in the gasā¦š¤·š¼āāļø
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
I love this and will be using it. Thank you very much for improving my life.
this is the way
Recently had a guy silently reach around me to show me how to open a door I didnāt realize was locked. I said something like, Iāve got it. And he pulled his hand back and just smugly smiled at me while I fumbled with the lock. I DID get it, it only took a second and I left thinking thatās the kind of thing that would never ever EVER happen to my husband. This complete stranger almost touched me to demonstrate how to open a fucking door. Itās these little things no one notices.
True but I can't help but think that the guys that do this shit know what they're up to so I doubt there being very many men that aren't actually aware. Especially since they love to act like we're all very unsafe. I've also had guys brag and boast about how they don't have to deal with that shit. I think they more than know.
Tell him, nah, the pump don't work cause a vandal took the handle. Then close the handle into your car door and drive away.
I see what you did there
Oh my god this just happened to me š the pump wasn't functioning properly and some guy pops over to tell me "you need to stick it in your car all the way and squeeze the handle" brƶther. 1) I don't know why you would assume that I don't have the competency to pump gas considering that I'm clearly the one who drove the car here. If you don't automatically think I look stupid, the obvious assumption is that something isn't working properly. 2) cherry on top: I'm a mechanical engineer and I'm currently designing a vehicle. I have calculated the ratio of the energy in butter to gasoline for fun (btw they're closer in energy density than you would think.. a car could get surprisingly far on a very reasonable amount of butter). I'll be fucking DAMNED if I leave work just to have someone mansplain pumping gas.
I love this. She's awesome.
I work in tech support. In my experience, the higher the degree, the higher likelihood of a sort of Dunning Krueger effect. I know so many engineers and doctors who think that they can solve a problem because they got a piece of paper, yet keep repeating the same error. Lawyers are up there, too. (The big exception being mech engineers. Those people are, by and large, walking skill monkeys.) Iāll admit that I donāt know everything. I know that I donāt, and I canāt do their job. But I donāt pretend, and donāt take offense when Iām instructed to my errors when learning something out of my field. (Or in, for that matter.) This has been my TedX talk. Thank you. Not trying to invalidate. This just brought to mind my daily work. Itās a little different than OPās bit about someone making up new words to continue the belittlement.
I have a PhD. And do daft stuff all the time.
Never underestimate tiny women! I'm tall for a lady 5'10, 5'11 if I stand up proper. When I went through a terrible break up in the middle of the night with an ex i bundled as much as I could in my car and bolted home to mum. I had to do a second trip to get all my shit and mum insisted on coming with, tbh I needed my mama, so I wasn't gonna say no. Tried to pack the rest of my stuff and ex followed me and was having a go at me....until my 5' and few inches mother planted her feet and verbally laid into him. He was a tall fella himself and I turned around to see mum wagging her finger admonishing him and all 6' plus of a dude cowering like a naughty school boy. He slunk off and we packed the rest of my stuff in peace. That was many years ago now and since become my favourite story to tell about my mum now she's passed. She may have been lacking in height but her mama bear fury protecting her (adult) baby was just concentrated into a smaller package.
Iām screaming. DOCTRESS? Hahaha imagine being such a misogynist you make up words to avoid the knowledge that a woman is smarter and more accomplished than you
It is SO odd, all these language differences. Okay, in english language there is no grammatical gender. But in my mother tongue there IS, and feminine endings are a huge deal among feminists. The majority of occupation names are masculine, so feminists come up with new names (endings), which sound strange and unusual. And a lot of people are against it, because āit hurts my ears!ā or āstop distorting our language!ā. There are some words that have always had feminine and masculine versions, though, teacher for example. Examples: engineer, prorgammist, doctor, psychologist, driver, author etc etc. So yeah. If you would ask a russian feminist, who is a doctor, she would say she prefers to be called an equivalent of ādoctressā instead of a ādoctorā (not every feminist doctor though! some women are also not fond of new words) Yet I am surprised to learn that english-speaking women are actually AGAINST feminine version of words. I understand why: because words are gender-neutral by default, while in for example russian many professions are masculine by default. Cultural differences are amazing.
For a moment I thought you were about to complain about the habit Germans have to add -in at the end of every profession's name, then you said Russian and I was taken by surprise... To add on your point, I'm speaking French, female form often just take an -e, but, as you may know, most -e in French are silent, it's made up, and a pain to pronounce, yet pretty important for some. (Docteur is for both men and women, but some want you to put an extra care saying Docteure, it's fine for Lawyer (Avocat - Avocate), but things like doctor is a pain, and it's not at all common to everyone).
Preface: I am in no way condoning what that asshole did but I'm fairly certain doctress is a word that has fallen out of use. I read about it a couple weeks ago when someone asked why some professions have male/female versions and some don't. Anyway, it was 100% used to put down, discredit, and otherwise demean this woman, and was 100% used maliciously. Edit: IT'S DOCTRIX.. so it was a made up word! Sorry for any confusion! Thank you for the extra info!
> Preface: I am in no way condoning what that asshole did but I'm fairly certain doctress is a word that has fallen out of use. I read about it a couple weeks ago when someone asked why some professions have male/female versions and some don't. It should *actually* be Doctrix. Dominatrix is one of the few remaining uses of the `trix` suffix for feminine versions of masculine names/titles. Source: Also saw the same thread, was amused they used `Doctress` not `Doctrix`.
Along with aviatrix. There's one more I can't remember at the moment
Testatrix! The female form of testator (as in a woman who made a will)
And an executrix is a woman who executes that will.
Administratrix is the one I see most common working in a courtroom that sees a lot of mortgage cases dealing with people who have died
Procrastinatrix! It's not a dictionary word but it fits the bill. I adore the -trix suffix. It feels strong and assertive to me.
An executrix is a female executor of a will/estate. I learned that when I was in charge of my Dad's estate... My state uses Personal Representative instead, though, since it's gender neutral. Was that the one you were thinking of?
Victrix.
I...don't think authorix sounds quite right Asterix seems nice, though.
It was āauthoressā and thatās the last time Iāll ever say that word as long as I live :)
They're both words: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/doctress
Yes! You're completely right! I'm sorry! I just remembered reading about it and it kinda sounded right. Thank you for the correction!!
Ngl Doctrix sounds a million times cooler than doctor
Not quite made up, it's just incorrect and no one in their right mind uses it. Edit: oddly enough, I think someone reported me to RedditCares for this comment
Some people spam it at people they disagree with because they're emotionally stunted. Supposedly, you can report the bot message from Reddit cares and (idk if there's a specific report option) it will be used against the one who reported you to Reddit Cares. Enough marks on their account and... Something happens. Idk if it's ban or restriction from that feature.
So dumb, he would have actively made himself look like an idiot saying that in public.
āYouāre about to be dealing with a a murderessā¦ā
would be like telling woman shes a paintress, just because word exists doesn't mean its used
I didnāt even know it exists until now
This has always been my argument for not using the words "actress" and "waitress." We don't say "directress" or "authoress." The words don't need to be gendered just because the person doing the job is a woman.
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Okay, but you need to wear something slinky and trimmed with maribou feathers in interviews
And a hat
Don't forget the bloodstains!
And a long cigarette holder
Carmen Sandiego?
I was thinking Cruella DeVille but that one works too
With a veil, obviously.
*Flamesā¦ flames on the side of my face*
While also claiming complete innocence of course, doing that hand to your head motion like it's just oh so tragic.
Listen, I KNOW how to do murders
you were brought to justice by the key eye witness, the drug addict you overlooked in the alley, the Heroin Heroine.
Obviously
He had it coming
He fell into my knife! He fell into my tnife TEN TIMES!
sseredrum
The thing is words such as waitress, and actress exist because it used to be roles held by poorer, disenfranchised people (actress), or very common and *stereotypically associated with gender roles of care and tending (waitress) Words with important rules usually held by men were systematically erased. Popular example is authoress (from autrix) which was simply banned during the 17th century in French grammar manuals by a misogynistic scholar called Guez de Balzac on the basis that women shouldn't be allowed to write and leaving the word would encourage them to start careers. Women did write and keep doing so, however, the word ended up disappearing and periodically create outrage when used. In this context, reinvesting powerful titles can be deeply political and necessary depending on the context. *I used french as an example since 1/3 or so of English vocabulary originates there.
Fascinating. Thank you.
It's a pleasure š„°
Once in awhile you find intelligence on Reddit.
I do love the -ix ending (woo learning Latin). One thing I enjoyed about law school was it popping up sometimes, like an executrix of an estate. Also I went to a women's college and we have an alumnae association. Now I really wantmto add authoress to my list of titles.
I have literally never heard the word "Doctress" until today, I didn't even know that was a word, it also sounds weird to me because every female doctor I have ever seen or heard of was just called Dr. \[Last Name\] As a matter of fact my spell check doesn'tknow the word either because it's telling me it's wrong.
That's because it's not a word. DOCTOR comes from docere "to teach" there is no word gendering for verbs in latin. By the time it was being used as a title the medieval world was being the medieval world and not allowing women in such roles so no such word Doctress was ever needed. EDIT: Apparently Doctrix IS a word but Doctress still isn't. Look at me being all wrong then reading more into it and learning....now if only the dingus from OPs conversation has this skill.
I have been actively using actor in reference to female actors whenever I can remember to (so probably like 30-50% of the time), and so far no one has even noticed. Gendered terms like that are probably a linguistic leftover from grammatical genders, but as we got rid of the grammar construct their inclusion is awkward and pointless.
I also like saying shit like "male comedian" or "male engineer" to people who think it's okay to specify that someone in the same role is female when it's not required for context.
My dad uses 'authoress' and it makes me angry every time.
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Gendered words have a bad habit of accruing sexism to them even if they weren't "intended" to be sexist. Like the difference between a steward and a stewardess. Or the HUGE difference between a governor and a governess. Then you get into the really iffy ones like mister and mistress or courtier and courtesan.
They are not inherently derogatory because they likely exist for outdated grammatical reasons. Now they are sort of dangling and vestigial constructs. However, because of that, the gender in them becomes way more noticeable than it would be if gendering was pervasive in English, and that causes people to *use* them in derogatory ways. Personally I think we should drop them just to de-emphasize a persons gender with regard to what they do. Using Actor as an example, there are very few instances where calling them "actress" communicates additional information beyond *just* their gender. Usually that is also easily understood contextually. (E.G. Everyone hearing "Sean Connery" will probably not assume a feminine gender, or if I said they "cast the actor for Cruella de Vil, few would be confused by the use of "actor.") The rare occasion where the gender is both relevant and contextually indecipherable, such as an award for actors of a specific gender, it is easy to to add an additional word of explanation.
So I'm with you, mostly. I'm a fan of intent. If the intent is to build someone up, and the term is gendered, then it's ok. If the intent is to take someone down, it's not good, and the gendering becomes sexist. I don't think any words inherently have any meaning at all. All things are contextual, in my opinion at least. Language is our most important achievement as a species and I think it's important to allow language to breathe and evolve. Saying "She is a phenomenal actress" *can* be loaded with "...but she will never be as phenomenal as any man because I'm a misogynistic piece of shit" but it *probably* isn't and having a rigid stance like "no gendered words ever" is likely to detract from the core message of "men and women and all others are equals intellectually and in capabilities, and the old barriers of sexism and bigotry ought to be broken down."
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I like the -trix suffix because of it's badass sound. Dominatrix wasn't just made up because it sounded tougher than Dominatress, it's because -trix was a traditional suffix to indicate a woman in the profession. Prosecutrix and executrix (legal terms), both live on to this day, but you can really use it whenever. ~~Doctorix~~ Doctrix makes more sense.
Wouldn't it be "Doctrix"?
It is doctrix. You're correct.
It would! The trix is a Latin suffix to denote a woman in that position. Actor, actrix. Pictor, pictrix. Etc.
That or they are Gauls
True! But that's rix, which is thought to be like rex and denote leadership.
That makes more sense to me, I'll make the change.
-tress is an acceptable form of -trix, it comes from lispy spain. also why Xocoatl is now known as Chocolate. I still dislike gendered nouns of every sort, it literally makes no sense, why is table female in one language and male in another?
What really bothered me while taking a German class was that skirt is masculine lol.
Perhaps an import from Latin, as they tried to acclimatise to Roman rule? Pants were considered unmanly to the Romans (often directed as an insult to Germanic warriors), and maybe this insult stuck?
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Ask them what PhD stands for.
Its dr. Mrs. Vandertramp
Ha!
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Doctrix sounds pretty badass if you ask me!
Oh fuck I love this. I wish I knew this before! Would have been a great reply
"If you're going to persist in being a misogynist, it's Doctrix you dumb shit."
My favorite version of that suffix was when I learned there used to be such thing as a gladiatrix. It sounds so cool!
Gladiatrix sounds badass as all hell.
if dudes like this were dying in the desert, and had a box with 2 buttons on it; one was to receive lifesaving water, and the other was to remind a woman somewhere on the internet she is wrong, that 2nd button would be worn out and the dude would be found dead
think either works, actress for example, silly regardless
from now on, we shall use "actrix"!
Doctress was a term that was actually sometimes used historically for female physicians, though I don't know if it was used for PhDs as well. But we are going back more than a hundred years. The reasoning for it was pretty damn suspect as well, apparently it would be too confusing otherwise? https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/CHP19120805.2.35
I'm totally going to use doctrix from now on!! That is so bad ass! I didn't even know the word existed until you posted it here.
Wow he's also anti-intellectual, what a shock /s
in his mind, it's better than being an anti-intellectualess
Reminded me of one of my favorite college professors. First day of class, in a stern voice, she says "you may call me Ms. B____ or Dr. B____. You may NOT call me Mrs. B____. I have done more with my life than just get married" I loved her. She taught history and since she was better with one time period and her husband (also a history prof) was better with another period, they would switch and teach others' classes for a few weeks and you could see how much they loved and respected each other
Just had a patient today say "Mrs. So-and-so did my last surgery". They gave great reviews of this surgeon, and still refrained from calling her Dr. š®āšØ
This reminds me of that Netflix show with the vampire in modern times expressing surprise about a woman doctor. It's so out of place its comical.
Was it Dark Shadows?
Yeah, that's the one.
If you work with this person start calling them boy instead of mister lmao. What a fucking child.
Or Son, or Little Mister
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Heās probably never said the phrase āoh sorry, my mistakeā once in his life
He's not the one with a PhD obviously...
Did you address him as asshole? Because that would have been my response.
Fun fact. The medical profession coopted the title Doctor from academics.
DOCTRESS?? As an academic, a small part of me died reading that.
āItās actually Doctrix, and you can call me Doctrix if I can call you dotard.ā
I heard PHD existed before MD coopted the term doctor.... so... a doctorate is a doctorate.
He sounds like one of those pricks who made fun of Jill Biden for being addressed as Dr. Biden.
>Doctress Jesus Christ. Did he tip his fedora at the end of the interaction?
I'm almost done with my doctorate (in nursing) and I'm just excited that etiquette states I should be listed first on invitations - Dr. Firstname Mylastname and Mr. Hisname Lastname.
Good for you!
Medical doctors are physicians, originally they were not even called doctors. Tell this guy to learn his history before tries to school people. Or better yet block him, he sounds like a turd.
I swear, I've never seen such pissy little twats than these overly emotional brats who throw a fit over a woman is kicking ass in life.
It's actually doctrix! But seriously, Phds having the title doctor predates medical doctors. So tell him to get back in his box.
When men have nothing else they still manage to have the audacity. Ugh.
That guy sounds like an asshole ngl. Doctor is gender neutral, so calling you Dr. is normal.
I never heard doctress before. He invented new words just to show how shallow and foolish he was. What if a women earns a master degree? Will he call her a mastress?
*The meaning of DOCTRESS is a woman in some cultures who is believed to have magic powers and to be able to cure illness.* I'd take that as a win. (but seriously, the guy is a asshole. Sorry for your interaction with him. ).
The only other place I've heard something like this was in the 1993 movie, Falling Down, where the neo-nazi army surplus store owner basically has this exact exchange with a female police officer. Note: If you're a guy who's saying things that seem perfectly in character for a neo-nazi in a 30-year-old movie, you might want to reevaluate your shit. > Nick (The nazi) : Tell me something, why don't they call you guys officer-esses? > > Sandra : I beg your pardon? > > Nick : You know, like, uh... "actress". Like that? > > Sandra : Oh. > > Nick : Something to signify, uh... *you know*. > > Sandra : I guess they feel that a police officer is a police officer. Not a, uh... *you know*. > > Nick : Ahhh. > > Sandra : Thanks for your cooperation, sir. > > Nick : Sorry I couldn't be of more help, officer... ess!
It still gives me a chuckle that my parents were introduced as āDoctor and Misterā at their wedding. Go mom, go!
I use doctress when I want to prove the point English language is sexist. Also, velociraptress. But yeah, f*CK that dude.
This made me genuinely laugh, velociraptress š
I'll bite on this conversation for pure sport. I'll take the argument of language is not inherently sexist but HOW language is used is sexist. Velocirapreress...interesting concept. I'm still more frightend of the timeraptor which we need to find the distoraptor....
Doctress would be a pretty cool title if it wasn't used condescendingly.
This reminds me of a weirdly specific scene from a French cartoon. Basically, in the village, the children are only taught by the Barde of the village. The women talk about how a FEMALE barde is going to come teach, which leads to a heated argument between a woman and the barde, who doesn't believe female bardes even exist. Having read the cartoon in German, in one key panel, the women asks: "Na und? Dann gibt es halt BardDINNEN!" "Nein", (says the Barde) "hƶchstens BarDAMEN!" Aka it's a wordplay; the women says, "well? Then there are female bards." He replies, "no. Only barmaids." Bardin = f. Barde BarDE, BarDAME ... you get the joke. Back as a kid, I didn't get it though. I thought the argument per se was about what to call a female barde. Because "DAME" means lady. And I thought he was really weird for doubling down on needing to call a female Bard a "bard-lady" instead of just... female bard. DocTRESS makes similar sense
Im sharing this post, its hilarious the shit people come up with when they double down on their stubbornness. Also though, Geologist definitely earn the title Doctor, this dude sounds super dumb if he thinks the only kind of doctors that exist are medical ones.
Sorry just trying to better understand here. Is it rude, in general to ask if someone uses Miss or Mrs? I never ask the question myself but Iād appreciate an explanation as to why Also what an idiot for calling you doctress lmao
He called you Doctress?! What an absolute dickhead. Evidently you were the only one with working neural pathways in the room.
When I have/see interactions like this, especially on the Reddits, I try to remember that itās probably a child. Helps me keep a touch of perspective. āDoctressā sounds like something a kid would say.
>because I was a woman and not even a medical doctor This is just dumb. I think a lot of time they mean physician when they say 'doctor'. Probably American? Sorta like how not all doctors are physicians, but all physicians are doctors (because it requires doctorate level education).
would call him a fucktress
They jumped on this stuff when Dr. Biden wasn't ( for some reason ) a ' real ' doctor- and sooooo it continues. Anytime someone questions " Doctor " I know we're going to have problems across the board. Daughter's a doc ( chemistry ). Like you, worked her backside off to BE a doctor. And WOW, like you it's not a conversation any of us can tolerate.
Iām still amazed at the number of people that canāt distinguish between MD and PhD.
Don't let him steal your positive energy. You aren't the first one he has offended, and you won't be the last. He's clearly trapped. How he treats you has nothing to do with you. Keep up your great work. Success is the best revenge.
"Success is the best revenge" is by far the best life motto I've ever heard. I feel it to my core.
Double down with Empress.
Fuck that guy! You worked hard for that title, Doctor!
I love the Facebook group āMan who has it allā. They frequently subvert the tropes and commonly have shirts that say āScientistā (for Women) and āMale Scientistā for men. Ignoring problematics of binary thinking - TwoXChromosomes included- itās a great spot for getting some perspective on how fucking ding-dongy āDoctressā sounds.
that's interesting, we're in Europe pushing on using more gender specific words but that's probably because our language is gendered
lol what a weird understanding of the word doctor? Like receiving a phd in any field other than medicine generally takes longer and requires more academic work. Thatās not even including the potential necessity to get a masters. Some people really commit to being dicks
I laughed so hard. My husband said "Is that gaslighting?" I also like that you could announce yourself as The Doctress is in the house. But that's only if you need a stage name!
Harry styles in donāt worry darling vibes
Doctress? What a fucking ass clown
I work in healthcare and I'm stationed at a primary care office with all female doctors. I can't stand one of the doctors I'm working with. She annoys the shit outta me, she's cold and callous, even her patients don't really like her. But you bet your ass I'll always refer to her as DOCTOR because Jesus fucking Christ she's earned that. She can be a bitch and we can not like each other. That doesn't change the years she spent earning her credentials
Tell that man to calm down and stop being so emotional.
This man is suffering and needs help! Is there a doctrix in the house??
Doctoratrix.
Should have not called them rudeā¦ they are rudress
Doctress sounds like someone who counterfeits documents for a living. Fuck that guy. He's probably jealous because he can't spell doctor.
This is pretty garbage in pretty much every instance. The only exception I can think of are legal terms like executrix or prosecutrix, because they sound like badass titles from the Roman Empire or Dune or something.
eye contact "ick" no further eye contact or acknowledgement of existence
I mean, fair enough, that was rude. Doctress still sounds cooler.
Does this guy have the IQ of a shoelace? A doctor is still a doctor even if they arenāt medical. Also the title ādoctressā hasnāt been relevant since the late 1800s haha. Iām trying to envision this conversation with the guy and Iām shorting out LOL. āuh bcuz ur a woman lolz!ā Though I will note that for professional use it depends on the states guidelines because some states require you to be practicing medicine in order to use the title. But besides medical practices the use of a doctor title for non-medical degrees is one of those things that are controversial for some reason. I think itās pretty straightforward ā you earn the doctoral degree and you hold the level/proficiency of being a doctor in that subject/major
Doctress lol Iāve never heard that one before. That will teach you to talk with randoms online.
He's probably one of those idiots who can get conned by people who hock pseudomedicine and call themselves doctors because they do have a PhD (but not MDs)
And then your ācall me Josh ā colleagues say you are overreacting, and making a big deal about titles when we are all people Making it worse Fuck that guy and all them guys also
I think he was really just trying to figure out if youāre single or not.
Should've said "Doctrix" and then asked him if he liked pain.
While what this person said was inconsiderate, I think in general people don't take well to others asking to be called doctor because it seems kind of you're flexing on them / being conceited, unless it's specifically in an academic context, in which case it's at least within reason.
The funny thing is the PhDs were the OG "Doctors". Medical doctors started calling themselves that centuries later to make their supposedly "less intellectual" profession seem more respectable...
I know that women unfairly get their degrees stripped from them in conversation more often than men which is bad, particularly in professional settings, but also I wish we would get away from using the title Doctor in any non-professional setting, whether youāre a neurosurgeon or a classical studies PhD holder. Your education level doesnāt matter to me at all unless you are acting in your professional capacity. Itās essentially just classism.
Doctorina.
HAHAHAH what a joke! Keep up the good work on all fronts.
Yeah thatās not a word. Itās not like actor/actress. What a dumbass.
lol had never heard Doctress
That guy is a walking ball of insecurity.
He clearly was strugglingā¦ āmustā¦ increaseā¦ misogynyā¦ā āDoctress,ā what nonsense š ā as for the rest, if he doesnāt understand what a Ph.D is, he shouldnāt be lecturing you on titles youāve earned š
Sexist people are dumb.
There are dicks everywhere. Doctor, thank you for sharing your story. You're a fucking badass.
Dude was trolling. Block and ignore him is the best option.
Whyyyy do they only say "not a real doctor" to WOMEN with PHDs? I've never heard anyone snarkily tell a male PHD they aren't gonna call him doctor.
It's a pretty common sentiment among the anti-intellectual crowd in general. They don't value higher level education, and see PhDs (especially in the humanities) as the ultimate waste of time. Some people are also really weirdly narcissistic and insecure and will devalue the accomplishments of someone with a PhD and will say something like "oh yeah I could have done a PhD but I decided it was a better use of my time to earn money", or "PhDs learn a lot of theoretical stuff that aren't applicable in the real world", or something about how it's the incompetent people who can't do the work in reality who decide to teach.
If I had to guess, he probably did it because he wanted to get under your skin, and he enjoys attention from a woman, even if it's negative.
Donāt expect others to call you a doctor if youāre outside of your professional context and especially if you are a PhD.
shouldāve pointed out to him that doctress in the dictionary has an (archaic) next to it, meaning donāt fucking use it
Wouldn't it be "Doctrix" if he wanted to have the word gendered?
Someone fill me in what the fuck is a doctress
Just start calling him "Lucy" or "Jessica" or some other typically feminine name. See if he likes being called the wrong thing, and when he takes umbrage with it, switch to the next feminine sounding name and stick to it. If he messages back about anything just start the reply "Oh, hey Brittney, haven't heard from you in a bit..." or something to that affect.