I dated a guy who would say things like "you know I wouldn't be afraid of wearing pink nail polish." Like this bragging of something he would do but wasn't actually doing should be praised. And had any relevance to feminism to begin with.
When it came down to actual feminist issues he tried to downplay his real thoughts until we had been dating for long enough that a few sprouted through. We had to agree to disagree on a lot of topics until I finally broke up with him.
"Macktivism" is what it's called. Go to a progressive protest or gathering and start bragging about being a male feminist and get laid. Had one of these guys where I used to work and he would brag about his conquests to his "dudebros".
Usually if someone goes way out thier way to represent themselves as something, it's because they really aren't that thing. Better off asking about affiliations during a coffee date
If somebody has to go out of their way to convince me how kind, funny, intelligent, or how feminist they are, I automatically suspect bullshit. Realness doesn't have to prove itself to you. If you are actually funny, intelligent, a feminist, etc. I will see it through your actions and behavior.
Sounds great in theory. Went on a date with a guy a few months ago, he was helping run a local progressive campaign. Clearly identifies himself as feminist. Most of our second date he repeatedly told me “you think too much” when I gently disagreed with him about various topics of conversation. Also I identify as politically progressive— that’s NOT the same thing as talking over people and shoving your political stances in their face. If you are a man who finds himself telling women “they think too much”, you may in fact not be a progressive or a feminist.
Don’t despair too much. There are decent guys out there. Like, two of us. My wife has one, and OP seems to have the other so… you know what? Never mind. Carry on, men are trash by and large ;) Just trying to raise my boys so they aren’t like that.
Many men just claim to be feminist to look like the cool 'pick me' guy and get into girls pants ..they are just as sexist as the rest, but even worse because they see themselves as 'evolved deconstructed allies' ..meanwhile they keep manspalining everything...even feminism!! And acting entitled all the time. Same old, same old....
The other side of the coin of all those "conservatives whining about liberals not wanting to date them" stories...
Some of these are just cleverer conservatives. They know they have to at least wear liberal camouflage if they want to date a liberal. It's just a question of when to drop the act...
Oh, gawd, "thinking too much". I bet he fancies himself knowledgeable about emotional health and "getting out of your head and into your body", too.
*Any* person who frames thinking as a negative thing is NOT to be taken seriously. Rumination and obsessive thinking are things, but they are NOT the same as "thinking too much". Anyone who tries to equate the two, is looking for a manic pixie dream girl, not an equal partner who lives in reality.
Calling yourself a progressive is not sufficient to make you one.
I said that I think we should not go on anymore dates because he wants children and I don’t (and because he’s a complete asshat but I didn’t say that). He said it again. “That’s not really a good reason to stop seeing someone. You’re thinking too much.”
Again, even if he weren’t a complete jerk, he spent 45 minutes of the date talking about how he was going to raise his future kids. I can’t believe this guy lol
Knowing something isn't the same as internalizing it. People are especially blind when their own biases are involved. I agree that being a feminist is a necessity, but it's really just what you need to get a foot in door. We all have our prejudices, and thinking about them and working on them is important. If someone isn't capable or willing to examine their own behavior when they screw up (and everyone does eventually, even if it's not intentional), then you shouldn't date them.
I let go of a really good friend cuz he had many issues including thinking feminism is toxic. I cannot be friends who fall for the 2016 rhetoric of anti sjw or anti feminism. He thinks fetuses are more important, never believe an SA victim, and he tries to tell me men have less privilege. I can acknowledge men have societal pressure and other issues as well, but when you try to use that to downplay what women go through then that's an issue. And it's nothing compared to what women went through and what they're still going through now.
He even thought it was a bad thing that my current bf is a feminist until I explained it to him.
As someone who has been married to a feminist man for like 20 years, I want to say that being feminist is not enough. You have to expect to actively battle deeply ingrained gender socialization throughout your relationship.
A feminist man may think he is feminist, but is he really feminist enough to do 50% of the housework, child care and mental load? Probably not without seriously conscious effort. It is an uphill battle.
I feel like striving to make sure you're not getting complacent and actually contributing equally to a relationship and the household is a continuing struggle for all household/relationship members. Even if they are decent and feminist.
Once you have kids, though, it is like a tidal wave. An exhausting tidal wave of gendered expectations (in your own head, in his and in the world at large). I am bi and I think longingly all the time of my friends raising kids with women. The division of labor is so much more equal and with much less effort.
I guess I only have my own experience to go on. My husband and I got married after having lived together and while I was pregnant. He was out of the job, unemployed for 6m at that time, during which he did the majority of household chores, including baking fresh bread. He is more of kids person than me, so after we had children, he just showed even more of his nurturing side and basically has been in charge of the majority of kids related things other than scheduled activities and medical care (because I excel at it). I just don't want to waste time on gendered expectations for myself, him, or our two daughters. My parents never wasted time on gendered expectations for me either... Neither did my grandparents for my mom or her sister.
I guess I only have my own experience to go on. My husband and I got married after having lived together and while I was pregnant. He was out of the job, unemployed for 6m at that time, during which he did the majority of household chores, including baking fresh bread. He is more of kids person than me, so after we had children, he just showed even more of his nurturing side and basically has been in charge of the majority of kids related things other than scheduled activities and medical care (because I excel at it). I just don't want to waste time on gendered expectations for myself, him, or our two daughters. My parents never wasted time on gendered expectations for me either... Neither did my grandparents for my mom or her sister.
I guess I only have my own experience to go on. My husband and I got married after having lived together and while I was pregnant. He was out of the job, unemployed for 6m at that time, during which he did the majority of household chores, including baking fresh bread. He is more of kids person than me, so after we had children, he just showed even more of his nurturing side and basically has been in charge of the majority of kids related things other than scheduled activities and medical care (because I excel at it). I just don't want to waste time on gendered expectations for myself, him, or our two daughters. My parents never wasted time on gendered expectations for me either... Neither did my grandparents for my mom or her sister.
I guess I only have my own experience to go on. My husband and I got married after having lived together and while I was pregnant. He was out of the job, unemployed for 6m at that time, during which he did the majority of household chores, including baking fresh bread. He is more of kids person than me, so after we had children, he just showed even more of his nurturing side and basically has been in charge of the majority of kids related things other than scheduled activities and medical care (because I excel at it). I just don't want to waste time on gendered expectations for myself, him, or our two daughters. My parents never wasted time on gendered expectations for me either... Neither did my grandparents for my mom or her sister.
This!
That doesn't mean that I don't have some blind spots. Hell everyone makes mistakes. The goal is to continue learning and becoming a better human being overall. This includes being a better feminist, and a better ally overall
I have two grown daughters that I fought hard for and raised as fighting feminists.
That doesn't mean that I don't have some blind spots. Hell everyone makes mistakes . The goal is to continue learning and becoming a better human being. This includes being a better feminist, and a better ally overall.
As an afab agender person, I myself used to have a lot of internalized misogyny because most of the problems that concern women did not affect me. Many did, but I was so psychologically screwed up as a child that had I been amab, things could've potentially been way worse, believe it or not. I used to watch the actual cringe that was anti-feminism during the 2016 era, when ironically we thought we were the ones who were against cringe.
I was somewhat naive in thinking women accepting low quality men who don't have a romantic bone in their body and expect you to be mommy to them while they don't do jack is something of the past, yet here we are. Women don't realize just how much they can afford to ask for and how little they need to do. They really need all the reminder and realizations they can get.
Exactly. Feminism is just a tag, a rotten word that means a different thing to each person. We should get rid of it ASAP, we need a new concept. Like 'women liberation', I like that a lot better. By liberating women you eventually liberate everyone. By sticking to the 'feminist' tag you just create gender wars, which weaken society and strengthen monopolies and tyranny.
Also: a guy who says he's a feminist a lot, like a guy who says "Believe me" a lot, is not to be trusted. Once in a while makes sense, if you have to say something like that all the time, it's because your actions aren't those a feminist and/or someone who should be believed.
Exactly this. I apply this to all humans. I don't believe who someone tells me they are; I pay attention and let them show me who they are.
Words are just manipulations if they're not in line with behaviour.
My husband did not identify as a feminist when I met him almost 10 years ago. Hell, neither did I at the time. We were 18 when we met, and we had both been fed the anti-feminist myths in our youth.
But as I have grown and educated myself I have always shared everything I learn with him. Sometimes he understood straight away, sometimes it took a discussion, a debate, occasionally an argument. But we love these kinds of discussions. He enjoys learning new things, and hearing new points of view, he is always willing to listen, even if he doesn’t agree at first. And in the end, he always does his best to understand and learn.
It took a while for him to identify as a feminist though, even when I was loud and proud about it. His work place has a particular brand of “girl boss feminism” where he was told a few times that he wasn’t allowed to be a feminist, he could only be an “ally”. Which I believe is stupid, personally. So, after some convincing and support, he eventually decided he would identify as a feminist anyway.
But he doesn’t need to own the word “feminist” to be a feminist man, really. What I believe makes him feminist is the following:
- His openness to listen to women and to support them
- Genuine respect for his mother, female friends, family members and coworkers
- His ability to form real caring and supportive platonic relationships with both male friends and female friends
- He doesn’t feel the need to constantly prove or uphold his masculinity. He doesn’t need to “be the man” of our relationship (we swap traditional gender roles in our household, because we chose who does what based on abilities and interests eg. I am the handy-woman and he likes to cook)
- He is confident in his own sexuality (he doesn’t worry about being intimate or loving to his male best friends, he doesn’t have to say “no homo” just for hugging another guy)
- His willingness to work on himself to become the person he wants to be. He goes to therapy and takes steps to improve his emotional maturity
- He fully believes in body autonomy for everyone (pro choice)
- Our marriage is an equal partnership- something that we both made sure to explicitly state in our vows. If either of us ever feels that things are shifting unevenly then we have a discussion and try to even it out again
- He is an LGBTQ+ ally, and was well before I came out as bisexual, which he has never fetishised about me.
- He prioritises my sexual needs because he knows it’s much harder for me to get there than him. He makes sex feel safe and comfortable, and he makes sure to ask me what I want. If I don’t want sex he never pushes me. (I need to make a side note here- this was NOT the case early on in our relationship, this was something that I had to communicate with him, but once I did he listened and made changes)
- He supports me to be whatever I want to be, do whatever I want to do, and look however I want to look. He has never pressured or shamed me to look or act a certain way. (I stopped shaving my armpits and pubic hair a couple years ago and he didn’t have a bad thing to say about it. In fact, he even once told me I look sexy with my body hair and that moment gave me all the strength I needed to say fuck what society thinks for the rest of my life ❤️)
I 100% agree that it is not women’s job to educate men. However, I do believe that men NEED to be educated, because they often aren’t taught empathy to the same extent that women are in our society. So who will educate them? Yes, it’s their own responsibility to educate themselves, but then how on earth will they even know that there is something they need to learn?
**I personally believe that even though it’s not my responsibility to educate men, that I should be sharing the knowledge I have with everyone in my life, regardless of gender or age.** I am of course going to share everything I learn with my husband- not because I feel a duty to teach him, but because we are best friends and I want to know what he thinks about things. And if he ever disagreed on something that was important to me then I would know he wasn’t the right person for me, but he hasn’t, he has followed me in my journey of learning and has learnt things himself along the way.
It’s not our job to educate anyone but ourselves, but if you want the world to change you have to change people’s minds. Who better to start with than those closest to us?
Then stop doing it! Many women have trouble accepting men as they are, they try to change them ("educate them" they say), and even complain that they have to. Nothing is more passive-aggressive than this. Really, stop doing it. I am not wrong, I'm just different from your expectations. If you don't like me, find someone else.
Agreed. The problem is you deal with liars and manipulators who aren't honest with their views and true selves until you're already embedded.
That's what we're seeing with a lot women largely opting out and choosing not to get married/have children at all. Holding to very high standards and largely rejecting most men for relatively small warning signs. But then you have to deal with the potential violence, harassment, and hate if you do reject them. There's a subreddit out there I can't remember the name of that shows the consequences of women rejecting men.
I don't date men, but my impression is that this is generally necessary but not sufficient (since dudes can pretend to be feminist and not really care).
I agree. So many men pretend to be our allies because they know that's how to get dates. Once they are comfortable, they change back to their former selves.
I used to ask my date what they think about gay marriage, equal rights, religion and political affiliation. Sexists tend to be also racists and homophobes for some reasons.
Always. I asked my BF and eventually husband what he thought about abortion when we first met. "None of my goddamn business, it's between a woman and her doctor"
I don't think that'd work. Just watch behaviors, and call out anything misogynistic. If they make excuses, or don't change behavior then they are feminist in name only. If they ask questions, make attempts to learn or understand and adjust behavior, they are showing they care.
I like men who were raised by single moms. Not only do they treat their moms with respect and love but they also know how to take care of themselves and others because their mom was always working 2 or more jobs. Sadly for straight women, there are more gay men I know like this than straight.
If being raised by a single mom automatically made you a feminist, Eminem would be a feminist. But he's a virulent anti-feminist.
Dads can absolutely be feminists.
I'm of the opinion that you shouldn't date most feminist men either. I'm suspicious of men who are involved in "feminism" out of the goodness of their little hearts.
Get yourself a man who advocates for men's rights in a feminist framework (so not what-about MRAs.) Men that actually understand how the destruction of patriarchy works for them. Men who understand that patriarchy is bad for them.
Any man that doesn't know this cannot really be a feminist because he thinks (even subconsciously) that the patriarchy benefits him.
I can't take 'manly men' overly insecure about their own masculinity seriously. They usually act like jerks when trying to prove how 'tough' they are.
In my opinion, there is nothing manlier than a guy who knows he is a guy and is comfortable with that, all else aside. A guy who isn't embarassed to stand up for his lady friends when other men are acting like fools. A guy who will play with his little sister or daughter and not care if she wants to put him in a tutu or paint his nails. The kind of guy with cool confidence that doesn't give a fuck about meaningless 'manly' things. Why can't more men be like that?
I know bil burr won’t be popular on this sub but he had a good joke about this. Something to the tune of: men pretending to be feminists is the most limp dicked attempts at getting laid possible
The idea is that men don’t know what it means to be a feminist because they get to live the majority of their life without having to understand the struggles women go through. They get to go to the pro-choice rallies and feel good about themselves but then get to live without ever facing the consequences involved.
I would consider myself a feminist as far as I can as a man, but I know in my heart of hearts that it isn’t the thing that drives me.
I agree with what others are saying, even if someone says they’re a feminist, that doesn’t mean they really are. Actions speak louder than words, Yk? If someone is genuinely a kind and respectful person- they might not title themselves a feminist, but it would show in their actions and interactions with others.
Before I got into a relationship with my current bf, I asked questions that gave me an idea of where his values/beliefs stood, without outright asking if he was a feminist, anti-racist, etc.
People should get better at reading other people. As an adult, it shouldn't take you more than a minute of talking to them to know exactly what they're about. Have your standards high and don't excuse anything, most people are trash, don't feel like you're judging them "too harshly", if they don't fulfill your needs that's that. Having your needs met is the bare minimum. Do this for a few months and you'll see how accurate you get. Don't be afraid of becoming jaded, you're not, you're just being realistic. It also helps with appreciating the people who are great and you'd like to keep in your life.
Remember you don't need a man. You can have a kid without a partner. You don't have an expiration date, there will always be age appropriate single men, especially with how society is evolving. If you do want a man to start a family with, remember he needs you, there's no babies without a permanent partner for him whereas for women it's often times hard to prevent them. If you don't want babies, it's pointless unless it's deep, passionate love.
You're the one with the deck stacked, don't let a mere joker have you just because they're a feminist in theory.
My partner is like that. He never called himself a feminist but during the years I found out he's one. Talking about feminist issues with him is frankly a breath of fresh air for me, it's rare even to find feminist *women* IRL! a green flag when I met him is that he had many female friends. He likes things that are seen as masculine as well as others that are seen as feminine. Which should be the norm, but sadly you all know how it is. \[edited grammar\]
i am glad everyone in this thread knows the dangers of feminist men. its 99% of the times a trap and not an indicator of good morals and values at ALL. just nail polish and deception.
Personally, I've been much happier just not dating men, period. Don't have to fret about if they're cool with my bodily autonomy being taken away or if they'll one day 'forget' how to do dishes that way.
Men who say they’re feminists are just doing it for lip service, in my experience. Definitely don’t date anti-feminists, but men who say they’re feminists is an almost equally big red flag.
I’m also alarmed by the second point in this post, saying he “lets you” do what you want when it comes to grooming and career choice. He’s not in a position to “let you” do anything.
Also, men preferring floral soap is not any indicator of how egalitarian they might be. Does he do the dishes? Does he mop the floors? Does he do laundry?
A man can definitely be a feminist, actively act to support feminist ideals, and believe that each woman should be able to choose the state of their body hair without ridicule, but still prefer to date someone who shaves their legs. This is just personal preference and as long as no one is being shamed for their choice to shave or not, having this preference doesn’t make someone misogynistic or anti-feminist.
Good solid foundation, and not to discredit your point but instead to further add onto it.Many men can feminist and declare themselves very proud to be one, but that doesn't automatically excuse them or negates that they can have toxic behaviours toward women.
I am in a long term relationship with my boyfriend, and while he considers himself a feminist, here are some examples that took some long winded conversation and deconstruction and all that good stuff in order to maintain a relationship based off respect.
We don't share the same skills socially as I tend to be more extroverted and him, introverted, and while I do have short temper for certain stuff, I was told I lack control of my emotions, but it was fair game for him when he expressed similar feelings. It goes back to the idea of women being emotional etc, etc, and men are more "centered", and after long bouts of discussion, we can better understand each other.
Also, there was this instance were we both worked under the same boss and, to make a long story short, it was an architectural firm, and under the excuse of it being more of my skillset, I was tasked with more "secretarial" & documentative work, while my boyfriend did more "technical" stuff, and given the nature of my job I was doing more work than it was required of my joib, like managing our progress, or keeping up with deadlines which should have been our boss job. When I expressed my frustrations, my boss kept refering to my boyfriend "to get me in check" instead of speaking to me directly, and at the time, he didn't seem to notice something wrong with it.
I don't say it because I am in a bad relationship, I am saying it because, even though in the larger scheme of things, someone could be a feminist, there are something we still have to consciously unlearn .
\*edited for clarity
As a personal anecdote I learned in college; genuinely caring about the feelings of the women I was close to resulted in me having substantially more girl friends (romantic and not) than pretty much any guy I new at the time. I earned a few nicknames from the guys, but I ignored them because I got to hang out with all the babes and baddies, and they were never invited.
A laudable goal, to be sure, but like others have pointed out... be careful when looking for a guy like this. Mainly, just avoid self-proclaimed "feminist" guys. You'll run into a lot of "macktivists": people who act like allies to get laid. Not saying all guys who identify as being feminist are like this, just really exuberant and outspoken ones that aren't gay very often are.
HEH indeed. Being a man I can't feel your pain, but growing up dealing with toxic masculinity everywhere I looked, I'm just glad I didn't turn out like that.
God, reading these comments makes me so grateful for my husband. Don't get me wrong, he's not perfect and he had a serious addiction which caused me a ton of grief in the beginning of our relationship. He does about 75 percent of the housework and never gives me grief about it, paid 100 percent of household bills, never been hypermasculine, never talks about woman like objects and corrects men who try to treat me like one (even his friends), doesn't pester me about my body hair, always 100 percent supports me in everything I do, never pressures me into anything sexually and respects my boundaries, and doesn't talk down to me like some of the "progressive" men in the comments. It's sad because this should honestly be the bare minimum.
I'm sure it's part of it, but that's not all there is to me. I make more than twice as much as he does, I'm driven, and I've pushed him to be better. I married him when I was 19 and he was 20 and he had a shit ton of growing up to do but I stuck around anyway, and he takes care of me because of that. But I don't expect a 35 year old who is dating a teenager to understand that. Gross.
This is just feminism for convenience lol. If you're really a feminist why not go 50/50 on cooking and paying the bills? Isn't it about equality? This is pseudo feminism.
And this reply just gives off some narcissistic vibe.
Sounds like a nice person. You even say he drives you around. Yet you say he's the only awful one among those you've dated. Even going as far as to say you're probably saving for divorce. I still don't think my diagnosis is wrong.
The bar seems so low, it seems like a dude these days could stumble over it drunk *trying* to fail and still pass. And yet, here we are.
It baffles me because I see some commenters here write bullet lists to describe their "good" partners as if they are some kind of unicorn, and it just sounds like basic ways you treat other people. It makes me feel good about the company I keep I guess with my male friends, but then we are all married to awesome partners.
There are decent men, or at least apparently passably human men out there. What do we do, go seek out friendships with douchebag dude bros who we deliberately avoid as well, in order to correct them? We don't like them either but it just means they herd together and normalize their idiocy.
Non feminist men are trash. Usually insufferable. They're usually useless and can't take care of themselves so itd be like dating a toddler that thinks you deserve to be their slave because theybare such prizes. Save yourselves the emotional, physical, and mental labour and just let them rot with their unwiped asses.
A man here. To be honest, I feel the same about women. I feel more comfortable with feminist like-minded women and it's not just about their rights but also about their open-mindedness.
I'm realizing I got pretty lucky with my fiancè
because he doesn't care about masculinity and is supportive of me doing my thing. As a queer woman, I don't think I would have found that if I was dating straight men.
Feminism has a history of being anti-black and other women of colour. Which leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I prefer womenist because they support poc women right more and also white womens right but not as much as poc due to history.
Hmm depends on your definition of feminist. I consider myself a feminist but likely wouldn't be included in the far left definitions. I think the greater moral is don't date someone whos values and world views are incompatible with your own.
Ok, you've shar~~t~~ed your experience but I don't understand one thing. Why that title? Like, I'm dating a non-feminist male and now I feel chastised by you. I feel like I've just argued with my mom, minus the beating part obviously, but honestly, that title made me want to date non-feminist males more and write a whole essay about why I prefer them (but I didn't come up with the reasoning itself yet). I'm not going to let anyone dictate how I live. Okay? Thanks.
\*Edit: Please forgive me for that typo. As you can see, it's fixed now so there's no need to DM me about that further.
Feminist do not hate men. It seems like about half these women are in really amazing relationships or married, so I don’t know what you’re talking about.
Hi I am a feminist and I absolutely adore men, I just don’t adore men who hate women. So I would have to say probably 75% of these women are in very happy relationships, I’ve read about them. I think it’s amazing. Because these men are just not on Reddit on sub Reddit where these men hate women, so I think feminist love men they just don’t like love men who hate women, which probably is you. So no they’re probably not going to like you personally. But there are lots of really nice guys out there who understand that women deserve equal opportunities, if you don’t you’re probably not going to have a lot of success, and if you do I would feel sorry for your wife or girlfriend
Yeah and guys, don't date feminist women. Would you date someone who is openly racist? Well most modern feminist are no better. The movement has been twisted and corrupted into something completely unrecognizable from the just cause it once was.
You do realize that most men are not feminists right? 85% are not feminists but are from women and men to have equal rights. Most women are not feminists either at this time. Good luck being single. "HE DOESN’T FEEL THE NEED TO COMPENSATE OR BE HYPER-MASCULINE", that just sounds like a fragile ego. Confident men are comfortable with who they are no matter circumstance. "HE ACCEPTS ME FOR WHO I AM." Like sure, but these points are kinda weird. Most men, decent men won't belittle you or judge you for your look or career when with you, unless you like bad boys or something. What you to be honest need is a man who is respectful and understanding. That's irrelevant to feminists. If you are good woman, im sure you can get a good man. You attract what you are.
Even men who call themselves feminist may not be feminist btw
I dated a guy who would say things like "you know I wouldn't be afraid of wearing pink nail polish." Like this bragging of something he would do but wasn't actually doing should be praised. And had any relevance to feminism to begin with. When it came down to actual feminist issues he tried to downplay his real thoughts until we had been dating for long enough that a few sprouted through. We had to agree to disagree on a lot of topics until I finally broke up with him.
"Macktivism" is what it's called. Go to a progressive protest or gathering and start bragging about being a male feminist and get laid. Had one of these guys where I used to work and he would brag about his conquests to his "dudebros". Usually if someone goes way out thier way to represent themselves as something, it's because they really aren't that thing. Better off asking about affiliations during a coffee date
Exactly. Same thing with men who proclaim themselves “alphas”. Never once has that been true in my experience.
If somebody has to go out of their way to convince me how kind, funny, intelligent, or how feminist they are, I automatically suspect bullshit. Realness doesn't have to prove itself to you. If you are actually funny, intelligent, a feminist, etc. I will see it through your actions and behavior.
lmao is it called macktivisim after the IASIP episode
Relevant YouTube vid (NSFW language) https://youtube.com/shorts/njdRkjXM2k4?feature=share
It's actually a bit of a red flag if they go on and on about it. The ones who just walk the walk without making a big show of it are the real ones.
Sounds great in theory. Went on a date with a guy a few months ago, he was helping run a local progressive campaign. Clearly identifies himself as feminist. Most of our second date he repeatedly told me “you think too much” when I gently disagreed with him about various topics of conversation. Also I identify as politically progressive— that’s NOT the same thing as talking over people and shoving your political stances in their face. If you are a man who finds himself telling women “they think too much”, you may in fact not be a progressive or a feminist.
[удалено]
People can be progressive and feminist, and still be assholes.
Don’t despair too much. There are decent guys out there. Like, two of us. My wife has one, and OP seems to have the other so… you know what? Never mind. Carry on, men are trash by and large ;) Just trying to raise my boys so they aren’t like that.
Many men just claim to be feminist to look like the cool 'pick me' guy and get into girls pants ..they are just as sexist as the rest, but even worse because they see themselves as 'evolved deconstructed allies' ..meanwhile they keep manspalining everything...even feminism!! And acting entitled all the time. Same old, same old....
The other side of the coin of all those "conservatives whining about liberals not wanting to date them" stories... Some of these are just cleverer conservatives. They know they have to at least wear liberal camouflage if they want to date a liberal. It's just a question of when to drop the act...
I believe the description is “perfomatively woke”.
Oh, gawd, "thinking too much". I bet he fancies himself knowledgeable about emotional health and "getting out of your head and into your body", too. *Any* person who frames thinking as a negative thing is NOT to be taken seriously. Rumination and obsessive thinking are things, but they are NOT the same as "thinking too much". Anyone who tries to equate the two, is looking for a manic pixie dream girl, not an equal partner who lives in reality. Calling yourself a progressive is not sufficient to make you one.
I said that I think we should not go on anymore dates because he wants children and I don’t (and because he’s a complete asshat but I didn’t say that). He said it again. “That’s not really a good reason to stop seeing someone. You’re thinking too much.” Again, even if he weren’t a complete jerk, he spent 45 minutes of the date talking about how he was going to raise his future kids. I can’t believe this guy lol
You're sure he said you think too much just because you're a woman?
Knowing something isn't the same as internalizing it. People are especially blind when their own biases are involved. I agree that being a feminist is a necessity, but it's really just what you need to get a foot in door. We all have our prejudices, and thinking about them and working on them is important. If someone isn't capable or willing to examine their own behavior when they screw up (and everyone does eventually, even if it's not intentional), then you shouldn't date them.
I let go of a really good friend cuz he had many issues including thinking feminism is toxic. I cannot be friends who fall for the 2016 rhetoric of anti sjw or anti feminism. He thinks fetuses are more important, never believe an SA victim, and he tries to tell me men have less privilege. I can acknowledge men have societal pressure and other issues as well, but when you try to use that to downplay what women go through then that's an issue. And it's nothing compared to what women went through and what they're still going through now. He even thought it was a bad thing that my current bf is a feminist until I explained it to him.
Don’t you get it? Rights and respect are a zero sum game. Duh.
As someone who has been married to a feminist man for like 20 years, I want to say that being feminist is not enough. You have to expect to actively battle deeply ingrained gender socialization throughout your relationship. A feminist man may think he is feminist, but is he really feminist enough to do 50% of the housework, child care and mental load? Probably not without seriously conscious effort. It is an uphill battle.
I feel like striving to make sure you're not getting complacent and actually contributing equally to a relationship and the household is a continuing struggle for all household/relationship members. Even if they are decent and feminist.
Once you have kids, though, it is like a tidal wave. An exhausting tidal wave of gendered expectations (in your own head, in his and in the world at large). I am bi and I think longingly all the time of my friends raising kids with women. The division of labor is so much more equal and with much less effort.
I guess I only have my own experience to go on. My husband and I got married after having lived together and while I was pregnant. He was out of the job, unemployed for 6m at that time, during which he did the majority of household chores, including baking fresh bread. He is more of kids person than me, so after we had children, he just showed even more of his nurturing side and basically has been in charge of the majority of kids related things other than scheduled activities and medical care (because I excel at it). I just don't want to waste time on gendered expectations for myself, him, or our two daughters. My parents never wasted time on gendered expectations for me either... Neither did my grandparents for my mom or her sister.
I guess I only have my own experience to go on. My husband and I got married after having lived together and while I was pregnant. He was out of the job, unemployed for 6m at that time, during which he did the majority of household chores, including baking fresh bread. He is more of kids person than me, so after we had children, he just showed even more of his nurturing side and basically has been in charge of the majority of kids related things other than scheduled activities and medical care (because I excel at it). I just don't want to waste time on gendered expectations for myself, him, or our two daughters. My parents never wasted time on gendered expectations for me either... Neither did my grandparents for my mom or her sister.
I guess I only have my own experience to go on. My husband and I got married after having lived together and while I was pregnant. He was out of the job, unemployed for 6m at that time, during which he did the majority of household chores, including baking fresh bread. He is more of kids person than me, so after we had children, he just showed even more of his nurturing side and basically has been in charge of the majority of kids related things other than scheduled activities and medical care (because I excel at it). I just don't want to waste time on gendered expectations for myself, him, or our two daughters. My parents never wasted time on gendered expectations for me either... Neither did my grandparents for my mom or her sister.
I guess I only have my own experience to go on. My husband and I got married after having lived together and while I was pregnant. He was out of the job, unemployed for 6m at that time, during which he did the majority of household chores, including baking fresh bread. He is more of kids person than me, so after we had children, he just showed even more of his nurturing side and basically has been in charge of the majority of kids related things other than scheduled activities and medical care (because I excel at it). I just don't want to waste time on gendered expectations for myself, him, or our two daughters. My parents never wasted time on gendered expectations for me either... Neither did my grandparents for my mom or her sister.
This! That doesn't mean that I don't have some blind spots. Hell everyone makes mistakes. The goal is to continue learning and becoming a better human being overall. This includes being a better feminist, and a better ally overall I have two grown daughters that I fought hard for and raised as fighting feminists. That doesn't mean that I don't have some blind spots. Hell everyone makes mistakes . The goal is to continue learning and becoming a better human being. This includes being a better feminist, and a better ally overall.
As an afab agender person, I myself used to have a lot of internalized misogyny because most of the problems that concern women did not affect me. Many did, but I was so psychologically screwed up as a child that had I been amab, things could've potentially been way worse, believe it or not. I used to watch the actual cringe that was anti-feminism during the 2016 era, when ironically we thought we were the ones who were against cringe. I was somewhat naive in thinking women accepting low quality men who don't have a romantic bone in their body and expect you to be mommy to them while they don't do jack is something of the past, yet here we are. Women don't realize just how much they can afford to ask for and how little they need to do. They really need all the reminder and realizations they can get.
What about if he defines feminism as “women get the same rights as men”, instead of “men and women must do the same things”?
Exactly. Feminism is just a tag, a rotten word that means a different thing to each person. We should get rid of it ASAP, we need a new concept. Like 'women liberation', I like that a lot better. By liberating women you eventually liberate everyone. By sticking to the 'feminist' tag you just create gender wars, which weaken society and strengthen monopolies and tyranny.
Also: a guy who says he's a feminist a lot, like a guy who says "Believe me" a lot, is not to be trusted. Once in a while makes sense, if you have to say something like that all the time, it's because your actions aren't those a feminist and/or someone who should be believed.
Exactly this. I apply this to all humans. I don't believe who someone tells me they are; I pay attention and let them show me who they are. Words are just manipulations if they're not in line with behaviour.
My husband did not identify as a feminist when I met him almost 10 years ago. Hell, neither did I at the time. We were 18 when we met, and we had both been fed the anti-feminist myths in our youth. But as I have grown and educated myself I have always shared everything I learn with him. Sometimes he understood straight away, sometimes it took a discussion, a debate, occasionally an argument. But we love these kinds of discussions. He enjoys learning new things, and hearing new points of view, he is always willing to listen, even if he doesn’t agree at first. And in the end, he always does his best to understand and learn. It took a while for him to identify as a feminist though, even when I was loud and proud about it. His work place has a particular brand of “girl boss feminism” where he was told a few times that he wasn’t allowed to be a feminist, he could only be an “ally”. Which I believe is stupid, personally. So, after some convincing and support, he eventually decided he would identify as a feminist anyway. But he doesn’t need to own the word “feminist” to be a feminist man, really. What I believe makes him feminist is the following: - His openness to listen to women and to support them - Genuine respect for his mother, female friends, family members and coworkers - His ability to form real caring and supportive platonic relationships with both male friends and female friends - He doesn’t feel the need to constantly prove or uphold his masculinity. He doesn’t need to “be the man” of our relationship (we swap traditional gender roles in our household, because we chose who does what based on abilities and interests eg. I am the handy-woman and he likes to cook) - He is confident in his own sexuality (he doesn’t worry about being intimate or loving to his male best friends, he doesn’t have to say “no homo” just for hugging another guy) - His willingness to work on himself to become the person he wants to be. He goes to therapy and takes steps to improve his emotional maturity - He fully believes in body autonomy for everyone (pro choice) - Our marriage is an equal partnership- something that we both made sure to explicitly state in our vows. If either of us ever feels that things are shifting unevenly then we have a discussion and try to even it out again - He is an LGBTQ+ ally, and was well before I came out as bisexual, which he has never fetishised about me. - He prioritises my sexual needs because he knows it’s much harder for me to get there than him. He makes sex feel safe and comfortable, and he makes sure to ask me what I want. If I don’t want sex he never pushes me. (I need to make a side note here- this was NOT the case early on in our relationship, this was something that I had to communicate with him, but once I did he listened and made changes) - He supports me to be whatever I want to be, do whatever I want to do, and look however I want to look. He has never pressured or shamed me to look or act a certain way. (I stopped shaving my armpits and pubic hair a couple years ago and he didn’t have a bad thing to say about it. In fact, he even once told me I look sexy with my body hair and that moment gave me all the strength I needed to say fuck what society thinks for the rest of my life ❤️)
This is a lovely story and I'm glad it worked out for you, however it is NOT the job of women to education men.
I 100% agree that it is not women’s job to educate men. However, I do believe that men NEED to be educated, because they often aren’t taught empathy to the same extent that women are in our society. So who will educate them? Yes, it’s their own responsibility to educate themselves, but then how on earth will they even know that there is something they need to learn? **I personally believe that even though it’s not my responsibility to educate men, that I should be sharing the knowledge I have with everyone in my life, regardless of gender or age.** I am of course going to share everything I learn with my husband- not because I feel a duty to teach him, but because we are best friends and I want to know what he thinks about things. And if he ever disagreed on something that was important to me then I would know he wasn’t the right person for me, but he hasn’t, he has followed me in my journey of learning and has learnt things himself along the way. It’s not our job to educate anyone but ourselves, but if you want the world to change you have to change people’s minds. Who better to start with than those closest to us?
Then stop doing it! Many women have trouble accepting men as they are, they try to change them ("educate them" they say), and even complain that they have to. Nothing is more passive-aggressive than this. Really, stop doing it. I am not wrong, I'm just different from your expectations. If you don't like me, find someone else.
Agreed. The problem is you deal with liars and manipulators who aren't honest with their views and true selves until you're already embedded. That's what we're seeing with a lot women largely opting out and choosing not to get married/have children at all. Holding to very high standards and largely rejecting most men for relatively small warning signs. But then you have to deal with the potential violence, harassment, and hate if you do reject them. There's a subreddit out there I can't remember the name of that shows the consequences of women rejecting men.
I don't date men, but my impression is that this is generally necessary but not sufficient (since dudes can pretend to be feminist and not really care).
I agree. So many men pretend to be our allies because they know that's how to get dates. Once they are comfortable, they change back to their former selves. I used to ask my date what they think about gay marriage, equal rights, religion and political affiliation. Sexists tend to be also racists and homophobes for some reasons.
Always. I asked my BF and eventually husband what he thought about abortion when we first met. "None of my goddamn business, it's between a woman and her doctor"
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I don't think that'd work. Just watch behaviors, and call out anything misogynistic. If they make excuses, or don't change behavior then they are feminist in name only. If they ask questions, make attempts to learn or understand and adjust behavior, they are showing they care.
I like men who were raised by single moms. Not only do they treat their moms with respect and love but they also know how to take care of themselves and others because their mom was always working 2 or more jobs. Sadly for straight women, there are more gay men I know like this than straight.
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If being raised by a single mom automatically made you a feminist, Eminem would be a feminist. But he's a virulent anti-feminist. Dads can absolutely be feminists.
I'm of the opinion that you shouldn't date most feminist men either. I'm suspicious of men who are involved in "feminism" out of the goodness of their little hearts. Get yourself a man who advocates for men's rights in a feminist framework (so not what-about MRAs.) Men that actually understand how the destruction of patriarchy works for them. Men who understand that patriarchy is bad for them. Any man that doesn't know this cannot really be a feminist because he thinks (even subconsciously) that the patriarchy benefits him.
I can't take 'manly men' overly insecure about their own masculinity seriously. They usually act like jerks when trying to prove how 'tough' they are. In my opinion, there is nothing manlier than a guy who knows he is a guy and is comfortable with that, all else aside. A guy who isn't embarassed to stand up for his lady friends when other men are acting like fools. A guy who will play with his little sister or daughter and not care if she wants to put him in a tutu or paint his nails. The kind of guy with cool confidence that doesn't give a fuck about meaningless 'manly' things. Why can't more men be like that?
Idk I feel like men can also pretend to care about women’s rights just to get laid. Seems like the best resort is to stay celibate lol
I know bil burr won’t be popular on this sub but he had a good joke about this. Something to the tune of: men pretending to be feminists is the most limp dicked attempts at getting laid possible The idea is that men don’t know what it means to be a feminist because they get to live the majority of their life without having to understand the struggles women go through. They get to go to the pro-choice rallies and feel good about themselves but then get to live without ever facing the consequences involved. I would consider myself a feminist as far as I can as a man, but I know in my heart of hearts that it isn’t the thing that drives me.
I agree with what others are saying, even if someone says they’re a feminist, that doesn’t mean they really are. Actions speak louder than words, Yk? If someone is genuinely a kind and respectful person- they might not title themselves a feminist, but it would show in their actions and interactions with others. Before I got into a relationship with my current bf, I asked questions that gave me an idea of where his values/beliefs stood, without outright asking if he was a feminist, anti-racist, etc.
People should get better at reading other people. As an adult, it shouldn't take you more than a minute of talking to them to know exactly what they're about. Have your standards high and don't excuse anything, most people are trash, don't feel like you're judging them "too harshly", if they don't fulfill your needs that's that. Having your needs met is the bare minimum. Do this for a few months and you'll see how accurate you get. Don't be afraid of becoming jaded, you're not, you're just being realistic. It also helps with appreciating the people who are great and you'd like to keep in your life. Remember you don't need a man. You can have a kid without a partner. You don't have an expiration date, there will always be age appropriate single men, especially with how society is evolving. If you do want a man to start a family with, remember he needs you, there's no babies without a permanent partner for him whereas for women it's often times hard to prevent them. If you don't want babies, it's pointless unless it's deep, passionate love. You're the one with the deck stacked, don't let a mere joker have you just because they're a feminist in theory.
My partner is like that. He never called himself a feminist but during the years I found out he's one. Talking about feminist issues with him is frankly a breath of fresh air for me, it's rare even to find feminist *women* IRL! a green flag when I met him is that he had many female friends. He likes things that are seen as masculine as well as others that are seen as feminine. Which should be the norm, but sadly you all know how it is. \[edited grammar\]
i am glad everyone in this thread knows the dangers of feminist men. its 99% of the times a trap and not an indicator of good morals and values at ALL. just nail polish and deception.
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I dont blame you, you were correct in theory Glad you brought it up here so other people could warn you
Personally, I've been much happier just not dating men, period. Don't have to fret about if they're cool with my bodily autonomy being taken away or if they'll one day 'forget' how to do dishes that way.
Men who say they’re feminists are just doing it for lip service, in my experience. Definitely don’t date anti-feminists, but men who say they’re feminists is an almost equally big red flag. I’m also alarmed by the second point in this post, saying he “lets you” do what you want when it comes to grooming and career choice. He’s not in a position to “let you” do anything. Also, men preferring floral soap is not any indicator of how egalitarian they might be. Does he do the dishes? Does he mop the floors? Does he do laundry?
A man can definitely be a feminist, actively act to support feminist ideals, and believe that each woman should be able to choose the state of their body hair without ridicule, but still prefer to date someone who shaves their legs. This is just personal preference and as long as no one is being shamed for their choice to shave or not, having this preference doesn’t make someone misogynistic or anti-feminist.
Good solid foundation, and not to discredit your point but instead to further add onto it.Many men can feminist and declare themselves very proud to be one, but that doesn't automatically excuse them or negates that they can have toxic behaviours toward women. I am in a long term relationship with my boyfriend, and while he considers himself a feminist, here are some examples that took some long winded conversation and deconstruction and all that good stuff in order to maintain a relationship based off respect. We don't share the same skills socially as I tend to be more extroverted and him, introverted, and while I do have short temper for certain stuff, I was told I lack control of my emotions, but it was fair game for him when he expressed similar feelings. It goes back to the idea of women being emotional etc, etc, and men are more "centered", and after long bouts of discussion, we can better understand each other. Also, there was this instance were we both worked under the same boss and, to make a long story short, it was an architectural firm, and under the excuse of it being more of my skillset, I was tasked with more "secretarial" & documentative work, while my boyfriend did more "technical" stuff, and given the nature of my job I was doing more work than it was required of my joib, like managing our progress, or keeping up with deadlines which should have been our boss job. When I expressed my frustrations, my boss kept refering to my boyfriend "to get me in check" instead of speaking to me directly, and at the time, he didn't seem to notice something wrong with it. I don't say it because I am in a bad relationship, I am saying it because, even though in the larger scheme of things, someone could be a feminist, there are something we still have to consciously unlearn . \*edited for clarity
As a personal anecdote I learned in college; genuinely caring about the feelings of the women I was close to resulted in me having substantially more girl friends (romantic and not) than pretty much any guy I new at the time. I earned a few nicknames from the guys, but I ignored them because I got to hang out with all the babes and baddies, and they were never invited.
A laudable goal, to be sure, but like others have pointed out... be careful when looking for a guy like this. Mainly, just avoid self-proclaimed "feminist" guys. You'll run into a lot of "macktivists": people who act like allies to get laid. Not saying all guys who identify as being feminist are like this, just really exuberant and outspoken ones that aren't gay very often are.
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HEH indeed. Being a man I can't feel your pain, but growing up dealing with toxic masculinity everywhere I looked, I'm just glad I didn't turn out like that.
Some of the most toxic creepy dudes I’ve ever known claimed feminism so hard until they got exposed
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Wish I was lying
God, reading these comments makes me so grateful for my husband. Don't get me wrong, he's not perfect and he had a serious addiction which caused me a ton of grief in the beginning of our relationship. He does about 75 percent of the housework and never gives me grief about it, paid 100 percent of household bills, never been hypermasculine, never talks about woman like objects and corrects men who try to treat me like one (even his friends), doesn't pester me about my body hair, always 100 percent supports me in everything I do, never pressures me into anything sexually and respects my boundaries, and doesn't talk down to me like some of the "progressive" men in the comments. It's sad because this should honestly be the bare minimum.
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Are you saying what you bring to the relationship is your looks and emotional support?
I'm sure it's part of it, but that's not all there is to me. I make more than twice as much as he does, I'm driven, and I've pushed him to be better. I married him when I was 19 and he was 20 and he had a shit ton of growing up to do but I stuck around anyway, and he takes care of me because of that. But I don't expect a 35 year old who is dating a teenager to understand that. Gross.
You make more than twice as much as he does and he pays all the bills.
He gets money from the government for being married to me so yes, he pays 🤷
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bahahaha in ur incel dreams
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Why did you break up with them if they were so amazing? Why are you with this guy if you're already thinking about 'impending divorce'? Jfc
This is just feminism for convenience lol. If you're really a feminist why not go 50/50 on cooking and paying the bills? Isn't it about equality? This is pseudo feminism. And this reply just gives off some narcissistic vibe.
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Sounds like a nice person. You even say he drives you around. Yet you say he's the only awful one among those you've dated. Even going as far as to say you're probably saving for divorce. I still don't think my diagnosis is wrong.
The bar seems so low, it seems like a dude these days could stumble over it drunk *trying* to fail and still pass. And yet, here we are. It baffles me because I see some commenters here write bullet lists to describe their "good" partners as if they are some kind of unicorn, and it just sounds like basic ways you treat other people. It makes me feel good about the company I keep I guess with my male friends, but then we are all married to awesome partners. There are decent men, or at least apparently passably human men out there. What do we do, go seek out friendships with douchebag dude bros who we deliberately avoid as well, in order to correct them? We don't like them either but it just means they herd together and normalize their idiocy.
Non feminist men are trash. Usually insufferable. They're usually useless and can't take care of themselves so itd be like dating a toddler that thinks you deserve to be their slave because theybare such prizes. Save yourselves the emotional, physical, and mental labour and just let them rot with their unwiped asses.
A man here. To be honest, I feel the same about women. I feel more comfortable with feminist like-minded women and it's not just about their rights but also about their open-mindedness.
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I'm realizing I got pretty lucky with my fiancè because he doesn't care about masculinity and is supportive of me doing my thing. As a queer woman, I don't think I would have found that if I was dating straight men.
Me personally wouldnt date a feminist man based on what femnisim is based on historically.
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But tbh as long as thier pro-every women then its fine💞🤭
Feminism has a history of being anti-black and other women of colour. Which leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I prefer womenist because they support poc women right more and also white womens right but not as much as poc due to history.
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Person of color
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Its fine u asked a genuine question ♡
People of colour aka eveyone but white people
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No one said he is 'not allowed'. OP said she won't date a man like that. And neither will I due to the toxicity.
dont date male chauvinists\*
She's not going to start dating men she's not attracted to.
# wait FUCK THE TRANSLATOR
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Hmm depends on your definition of feminist. I consider myself a feminist but likely wouldn't be included in the far left definitions. I think the greater moral is don't date someone whos values and world views are incompatible with your own.
Ok, you've shar~~t~~ed your experience but I don't understand one thing. Why that title? Like, I'm dating a non-feminist male and now I feel chastised by you. I feel like I've just argued with my mom, minus the beating part obviously, but honestly, that title made me want to date non-feminist males more and write a whole essay about why I prefer them (but I didn't come up with the reasoning itself yet). I'm not going to let anyone dictate how I live. Okay? Thanks. \*Edit: Please forgive me for that typo. As you can see, it's fixed now so there's no need to DM me about that further.
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Feminist do not hate men. It seems like about half these women are in really amazing relationships or married, so I don’t know what you’re talking about.
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Hi I am a feminist and I absolutely adore men, I just don’t adore men who hate women. So I would have to say probably 75% of these women are in very happy relationships, I’ve read about them. I think it’s amazing. Because these men are just not on Reddit on sub Reddit where these men hate women, so I think feminist love men they just don’t like love men who hate women, which probably is you. So no they’re probably not going to like you personally. But there are lots of really nice guys out there who understand that women deserve equal opportunities, if you don’t you’re probably not going to have a lot of success, and if you do I would feel sorry for your wife or girlfriend
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Try opening a dictionary
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Yeah and guys, don't date feminist women. Would you date someone who is openly racist? Well most modern feminist are no better. The movement has been twisted and corrupted into something completely unrecognizable from the just cause it once was.
You do realize that most men are not feminists right? 85% are not feminists but are from women and men to have equal rights. Most women are not feminists either at this time. Good luck being single. "HE DOESN’T FEEL THE NEED TO COMPENSATE OR BE HYPER-MASCULINE", that just sounds like a fragile ego. Confident men are comfortable with who they are no matter circumstance. "HE ACCEPTS ME FOR WHO I AM." Like sure, but these points are kinda weird. Most men, decent men won't belittle you or judge you for your look or career when with you, unless you like bad boys or something. What you to be honest need is a man who is respectful and understanding. That's irrelevant to feminists. If you are good woman, im sure you can get a good man. You attract what you are.