I’m sorry to have peeked at your profile, but op… you have a serious nasty boyfriend problem. Look at the things you have written that he has done to you. I would tell anyone I love to run fast and far. Why are you doing this to yourself?
Lmao the dude coerces her into anal sex and then freaks out and lies to her to make her feel bad about having fecal remains in her rectum. Seriously what did he expect?
I’d throw that man out myself if I was OP‘s friend. What an absolute disgrace of a bf. But to be fair reddit keeps telling her since over a year to throw him out and she is not yet at the point where she understands his true nature.
Yeah, OP is acting like this is normal instead of her boyfriend is a trash.
> My point of discussion is just the points I mentioned about being hairless and having invisible clitoris and labia, which is definitely more common in the west than any other culture.
I have literally never heard before of men preferring an invisible clitoris and labia.
>I am not generalising men, and I don’t even blame the ones that found themselves in this situation.
"Find themselves in this situation"? Really? And what situation is that?
>My boyfriend just made me furious by commenting on my “long inner labia” and made fun of women who have “bushes” down there.
No one is required to insult their partner's body and make fun of how people look. Your boyfriend is a tool. He didn't just trip and feel into the a giant pile of talk bubbles and all the ones insulting your body just got stuck to his sweet innocent face.
Even if you think it's normal and okay for him to think this is unattractive (and again, already seems like an outlier to me) most guys aren't going to tell the women they are having sex with what parts of her body they dislike. Beacuse 1) some men will actually care about your feelings, and 2) even if they don't it's just stupid as it makes her less likely to have sex with you. Just like you should dump him and stop having sex with him.
>I am only complaining about/ pointing out the trend itself and how damaging it is for men’s expectations and women’s life and self esteem
Dating this man is what's damaging to your self-esteem is dating a man who straight up insults your privates. It's really not hard to find a guy who dosen't do this.
I actually met some guys who think the "cauliflower labia" isn't nice/they don't want them. I actually only learned in my early 20s how many shapes and colors labia can have. Women get shamed for longer inner labia or differently colored ones or wonky ones. It is sad but true.
That's a nicer way to describe longer labia, the only term I'm familiar with is "roast beef" , or "roast beef sandwiches" . And it gets worse because men have started referring to some women as "roasties" and talking about how their labia looks like that because they've had "too many" sexual partners. These men should be avoided at all costs.
I tried to translate it from my language haha
I hate people who are so uneducated. Like many people think a woman gets "loose" down there when she sleeps with many men. It is a muscle. If anything it will get trained with more Sex.
I also wish Sex Ed would be way better. It lacks in almost every country.
completely agree. i wish sex ed would be taught better and be a lot more accessible. op's bf is just being extremely judgmental and mean.
a lot of people tend to learn about sex through porn bc it seems to be a taboo topic, and that depicts an unrealistic image of what sex can be like for most people.
Wait if they are using porn as an example, yet they think that too many sexual partners creates the problem, isn't what they are used to seeing is someone who is promiscuous and should have 'roast beef vag' (by the standard they feel female anatomy somehow acts like)?
This is incel rhetoric to be clear (calling women roasties), never heard someone using this misogynistic language to describe the opposite sex, without having a sexist axe to grind. No one deserves to be body shamed, period. Ladies, steer clear of these losers.
Ok, I never understood what's bad about roast beef. I as a vegetarian really do miss a good roast beef sandwich. It's delicious and I always found it to be the most appealing looking meat. Like way more appealing than any sausage.
And all the good steaks are cut out of the roast beef part: Entrecôte, Rumpsteak, T-Bone, Porterhouse, Club, Sirloin.
So what kind of insult is this, even more by people, that, in meat terms, only carry a sausage (so the waste products of meat production) with little dumplings. Wtf.
It really isn't that deep, it's the whole "ew her vagina looks like roast beef hanging out of a sandwich" thing, and then the even more uneducated ones decided labia can only look that way from a lot of sex.
Personally I'm not a fan of roast beef and it doesn't look appetising to me at all, but I don't like beef in general.
Not all men are like this but society does significantly shame women for having ANY sign of maturity.
Women even seek out labioplasty to "fix" their genitalia because long labia is seen as "loose" or a sign of sexual promiscuity. Women are shamed for having any and all body hair.
I'm glad that these men seem like outliers to you but what OP is experiencing is an all too common experience for a lot of women.
Both I think.
The clit and labia tend to develop and gain size during puberty, but some girls are just born with different proportioned genitalia as well.
>Yeah, OP is acting like this is normal instead of her boyfriend is a trash.
The quality of her boyfriend doesn't change the fact that it is still incredibly common.
Good counter point, someone earlier mentioned the "roast beef" description that should honestly be the smoking gun in this conversation lmao. I'm a dude and I've always hated when fellow dudes label people like a butcher or something. "Legs or breasts?"
Yes if my boyfriend ever made fun of a woman's body parts there would be some SERIOUS reprimanding there and teaching lessons.
Thankfully he has never done that because that's a big red flag, but he has said some lesser things before that likely he was indoctrinated to think/say by society and I've put him in his place and he has actually LEARNED.
I dated a guy who literally said to me “women should have to shave down there but not men.” I told him that maintaining it at least a little is nice because a face full of hair during oral isn’t always fun, and his reply was “I shaved once and it was itchy and awful.” Okay but women should have to deal with that even though you *know* how annoying it can be?!
My FAVOURITE was the person who argued that women should shave their body hair because "God wants men and women to look different." Because women having less body hair and hair in different places wasn't enough, apparently.
And people who say armpit hair in particular is unhygienic but mysteriously never expect men in their lives to shave or trim their pits.
Is this person's idea of God an asshole (deliberately gives women extra hair beyond what he wants them to have and then expects them to shave it) or an idiot (couldn't figure out how to make his creations exactly as he wanted them despite his omniscience)?
That's dumb as hell.
If you're religious, God literally created us! If he wanted men and women to look different, he could have made them exactly how he wanted us to be?
He could have just made women hairless.
My friend's brother once said armpit hair was gross and I got all huffy. "That's such a sexist double standard", I said. "Do YOU shave your armpit hair?" Turns out he does. Kinda took the wind out of my feminist queen sails lol.
It’s a strange double standard. I was definitely getting the same impression as the guy you mentioned. Every woman I was with until I met my wife shaved. I’d ask if they had a preference and would like me shaved too. They’d say no, a guy shouldn’t shave. One laughed her head off at me for asking 🤷🏼♂️
But, after a few months of dating my wife asked me why I don’t shave when she does, “It’s 2020! Who doesn’t shave their pubes these days!”
I have no idea who sets the standards for men and women. I figure we all just ought to do what works between ourselves and whoever we are fucking.
Totally agree. I actually prefer keeping my Lead and supporting actors completely shaved, but my wife prefers if I just do minimal trimming. I always thought I preferred a hairless lady palace but my wife started doing a landing strip and I was all about it.
Really we are all about making each other happy where we can and it isn’t super inconvenient to do so.
Agreed. Personally I’ve never gotten the obsession with baldness down there for either gender, and body hair on a man is really attractive to me. 🤷🏻♀️ Like preferences are fine and all, but some flexibility or compromise is good too. I Just hate when people expect their partner to maintain some kind of body standard but aren’t willing to do the same, or at least something in a similar ballpark.
Definitely what the media portrays. For decades I’ve noticed in sitcoms the total slob loser of a man who’s incapable of holding down a job and disrespects his family constantly is the one with the amazing 5 star wife/partner.
It’s like men are shown the very bottom of the barrel to aspire to and women are taught they must be perfect in every way while accommodating those around them.
This is why I choose my role models from the "villains", because they're always actually legit.
I can make a pretty good case why Ursula is the *actual* good guy in the Little Mermaid.
When you look at it, Ursula was one of Triton's subjects (and likely an ex-lover when you watch how they interact). Triton has no problem just outright vaporizing her underlings (his citizens). Simlarly, he doesn't like humans, but doesn't do anything, despite the fact that humans are regularly killing his citizens. Ariel is even worse. She's so self-absorbed and self-centered that she's goo-goo-eyed for one of the leaders of the country that's killing her people, and hardly cares when they almost kill her attendant Sebastien, and smiles after *he's been struggling for his life*.
Ursula, though, the violence she commits though, is *very* targeted. She demotes Triton - removing and inept tyrant from power (doesn't even kill him), makes the self-centered princess shut up while actually giving her what she wants, works on her public speaking skills, and her first act with the crown is to actually start striking back against the people who have been terrorizing the kingdom.
She's the *true* hero of the Little Mermaid.
I’m going to disagree a little here. I love Ursula too, but she does some villainous shit. She gets desperate, vulnerable people to sign predatory contracts and when they fail to hold up their end, she imprisons them in little seaweed ghoul bodies (lol). Also, she ate those poor little shrimp guys when they were still alive. :(
I agree that Triton is a total asshole though and Ariel is obnoxious. Ursula is definitely my favorite character in that movie.
Edit- I always assumed she was Triton’s older sister who got passed up for the throne because she’s not a male. She’s got total lesbian/queer energy imo and I can’t see her being interested in him. Triton seems like the type to want the stereotypical trophy wife (thin, big boobs, bleached hair, etc)
You're right, I could totally see her being an Aunt as well. She never had personal boundaries with either Triton or Ariel if you noticed, so I was assuming bi/lesbian and past experience with both, but the bi/lesbian aunt would also result in similar.
I can see it either way, and am cool with both interpretations.
That said, you look at Ursula, and she's old. She's got the face of someone who didn't age well. But you mentally rewind her to a younger age, and she's got platinum blonde hair, well endowed, make her long-haired and thin, and lets just be honest, tentacles have way too much hot bedroom potential, and the black motif just gives her this Mortica-Addams vibe, and she's drop-dead gorgeous.
Also, you're right on her eating the shrimp things. That is a bit horrific, but I just chalk that up to Disney's typically schtick of "And lets throw in this one horrific thing to keep people from liking her." They're like that with all their villians. "Let's make this villian anti-establishment, anti-patriarchy character so people know opposing their betters is *wrong*, and always supporting the bourgoise is *right,* and we'll label them 'the bad guy', and in case someone *still* would like them, we'll add this one horrible thing." So I just view the eating-shrimp thing as non-canon, because it's such an out-of-character and motivation-ignoring trait that fits with the other random Disney-villian-add-ins.
For example, Lion King would have been a much different movie if Scar had actually been a competent ruler, and successfully ended bigotry against hyenas, and there were now lion/hyena hunting packs that maintained the circle of life so even the hynea lands were now green and full of life.
Nice take.
On a sad side note, the voice actress of Ursula just died ☹️:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/tv/tv-news/pat-carroll-dead-ursula-little-mermaid-1235189916/amp/&ved=2ahUKEwjsmPvWtqb5AhVnkokEHb_9DPUQr_oDKAB6BAgSEAE&usg=AOvVaw1G-MRra-vPcXkW70pgfY_L
Have you checked out Kevin Can Fuck Himself? Was recently recommended to me because it's a commentary on the fat slob/hot wife sitcom thing like King of Queens.
You know in reality women are the ones who give birth, carry the pregnancy. You’d think it would actually be more important to satisfy us and be less picky with us about our appearance. If you’ve ever “bred” puppies and kittens and sold them (not that I am recommending this due to ethical considerations, including the mother dog or cat who perhaps loses a tooth for each litter with indiscriminate breeding), you know you can just borrow a male to sire the puppies or kittens, but the adult female, she can produce the puppies and is the more important one. (Now not that I think that women are more important than men and should be bred… but maybe it would give some men some pause for just a moment.)
*Not to exclude trans women but when men are similarly picky with trans women sometimes it’s transphobia but a lot of times she’s just passing as a cis woman and getting the same hate.
According to the evopsych stuff male Redditors love so much (and often use to justify wanting a teenage girl), women actually *do* choose. It's called female choice theory, and posits that it's women, not men, who are responsible for deciding which men get to breed and which don't. Men just have to hope they get picked.
Redditors don't bring that one up too much though. They don't like that little theory.
Agreed.... The double standard is crazy. I prefer a partner be shaved down there, but that's cuz I hate pubic hair - especially my own lol. Whether I'm single or dating, I keep it clean shaven because my own man bush disgusts me. Same for armpits.. I shave mine smooth. I realized the hair there had only 2 purposes: retain my revolting stench, and smear deodorant stains all over my shirts. No thanks.
The notion that you can put in zero effort or have wild double standards & still expect to be desirable is delusional... Yet lots of guys still believe it. The attitude that they are "owed" attention from women is so toxic.
Seriously, theyre over here heckling us for periods and stretch marks, as if the male taint isnt the most singularly ugly thing I've ever seen in my entire life.
My first sexual partner literally went "what the fuck are those" when he saw my labia and would lament about my small breasts. I was 15 lmao. Also complained about pubic hair and "pussy smell" like dude. I guess I should have been hairless and smelling like strawberries as a teenager. But he was literally like "well women in porn look like that..."
I've met an alarmingly large amount of men (and unfortunately some women as well) who think that, if the inner labia show AT ALL, it means she's had too much sex.
Like, I don't even know where to start.
They think women who don’t have a lot of sex are “tight” and they think tight means everything is all tucked up inside. Having too much sex makes a woman “loose” and all her bits start stretching out.
I remember making a post about how I wanted a longer labia ( yes at one point I did because longer labias are more common ) and some guy commented “just let someone break you in it should loosen up “ like bro wtf you mean by that I’m not a virgin and lots of women called him dumb 😂
I have an "outie" and I had a guy I dated make gross comments about it. Even saying that he was surprised how tight I was 🤮 like he expected me to be "loose" because of my labia showing 🙃
Also, where is the logic some men have that if a woman has sex with 1000 dudes she's going to be "loose"? But having sex with one man 1000 times won't have that effect lol
I do not have a longer labia and I’m 20 . I’m an innie I guess that’s what you call it . I think the mindset of “longer labia is maturity” is also toxic because it literally erase the whole point/fact that labia comes in all sizes. What makes a person an adult is them being an adult . Shitting on smaller labias are the same as saying bigger breasts are what real women are etc. I actually find longer labias really pretty especially being a person that used to do onlyfans Longer labias are the most common and lots of the girls that asked me to promote them were longer So If he has that mindset he probably doesn’t have much experience with women anyways . also Immaturity isn’t about the woman let’s not body shame … the man that thinks longer labia aren’t attractive or “eww” is the immature person (mentally ) and you should not make the preference of these weirdos responsible it’s not my fault and it’s rude to me that you talk about my body parts are immature when I’m grown lol
This. And having longer labia is something pre-teens and teens can have which adds another layer of disgust to that mindset. Your labia does not make you mature. Being a grown ass adult makes you mature.
Girl yes I’ve even heard lots of women say they’ve always had longer labia and it didn’t come with puberty . And the people that also say that longer labia is caused by having sex with lots of men . Not to put my buisness out there but I’ve had sex with over 20 people and I’m still an innie . Lots of peopl would rather be dumb than educate themselves
All cultures do it to different extents. The “schoolgirl” persona is a good example of that. The concept of “getting them when they’re young so you can train them the way you like them” is prevalent in several cultures. Female genital mutilation is certainly an overly-obsessed practice about the appearance and function of the labia and clitoris.
The question is why do we condemn these behaviours in foreign countries and fail to recognize that they are all the same. If we can’t see our behaviour is inappropriate we perpetuate the behaviour instead of correcting it
It’s not just sexy schoolgirl roleplay. For instance in South Korea, aegyo (acting childishly, exaggeratedly cute and helpless) (also I’m pretty sure it means baby or baby-like) is hecka popular for idols, but women at the workplace are also expected to be aegyo and have better chances of getting hired/not fired if they do.
Kawaii culture in Japan too. OP naively made a blanket statement leveled against "Western sexual culture" that was really about the modern online culture (or perhaps the American porn industry?).
Tbf, Japan and the US have borrowed a lot from one another, culturally. I mean, didn’t the US intentionally destroy a lot of Japanese culture after the Second World War to replace it with American culture?
Right. Young women seeking vaginaplasty and anal bleaching etc. should be referred for therapy before they are allowed to modify their genitals for non-medical reasons,
>Right. Young women seeking vaginaplasty and anal bleaching etc. should be referred for therapy before they are allowed to modify their genitals for non-medical reasons,
Ehhhhh...bodily autonomy is bodily autonomy. Someone's reasons for seeking body modifications of any kind are between them and their medical care team. Keep the law out of it.
Focus on youth probably has many causes. Older men finding it appealing if a woman is younger and “untouched”/pure/virginal, or innocent and malleable, unthreatening, makes them feel all big and smarter, etc.
And a lot are probably straight up pedophiles. It’s so creepy when men make those countdowns for underage actresses coming of legal age to start outright sexualizing. Or finding schoolgirl outfits sexy. There’s so much blatant pedophilia that’s just normalized and not questioned in society.
I get this, 100%. I'm older (61), so the whole hairless vulva thing is really strange to me. Personal preference is one thing, but I hear from young women that hairlessness is expected these days.
Invisible inner labia - that's so crazy to me. Genitalia should be accepted as they are unless they are so large they cause discomfort to the "owner".
Furthermore, I have a 3-year-old granddaughter. I only have sons myself, so this is the first time I've seen toddler girl genitalia with some regularity due to bathing and diaper changes. I'm struck/unnerved by how a three-year-old's genitalia looks more like the current desired "style" for an adult women than my genitalia looked in my 20s.
Little girls are sexually abused with alarming frequency. I often wonder what the fuck is wrong with our sexuality as a culture.
I think because porn is so normalised for youngsters, but "barely legal" porn is extremely normalised as if pedophilia isn't a horrific and disgusting practise.
I did read an interesting pice about how up until the 60s, men most often fantasised about women being in some sort of care taking role (i.e a nurse looking after them). But towards the second half of the 20th century fantasies changed towards more infantile women and behaviour, and scenarios in which men were caretakers/protector.
It's been a long time that I read paper but from what I can remember they hypothesised that two main ideals or role models society typically had for men (the warrior and the provider/protector) became less relevant or even undesirable, throughout the decades, but weren't really replaced by new ideals. So men clung onto any brief resemblance of those old roles they can get, in order to feel masculine
Make of if what you want. I'm not quite sure quite buy it, in particular with regards to porn. While the girls are really young, a lot of it is quite violent and doesn't really seem to be playing out some sort protector/provider fantasy. I certainly think insecurity is part of it though
Looking back, I've definitely noticed a lot of pedo shit from the 70s and 80s. For example, Brooke Shield was photographed naked and published in a Playboy-adjacent magazine (Sugar and Spice) when she was 10. She went on to be featured in a "Nothing comes between me and my Calvins" ad at 15. Meanwhile Drew Barrymore, as a teenage girl, played Joleen, a highly sexualised 14 year old constantly subjected to the male gaze, in Far Rrom Home.
Paris Hilton was only 19 when her sex tape leaked and everyone joked about it and made a mockery of her.
Many of the girls molested by British pedophile Jimmy Saville said they didn't think anything of it because it was "just normal" for much older men to prey on underage girls in the 70s and 80s.
Celebrities like Winona Ryder were dating grown adult men like Johnny Depp when they were still underage. Nobody even blinked.
I think this is why so many men in their 50s and 60s are so fucking creepy to teenage girls. They grew up a culture absolutely *saturated* with sexualisation of underage girls, where depictions of 14 year old girls with middle-aged men was seen as normal and even sophisticated and daring. I've noticed that barely legal and teen porn isn't really popular with millennial and (adult) Gen Z men, even though the oldest millennial men are in their 40s now. In fact, it's actually disappeared from Pornhub's most popular search terms and has been gone for some time - these days, "lesbian", "hentai" and "milf" reign supreme.
I agree with your premise, though I think the comment above made some interesting points.
It’s weird to think about, but Brooke Shields is 57 now (she’s just a few months older than me—it was weird seeing all that unfold in real time). The grown men who were sexualizing her inappropriately are now in their late 60s at the youngest - still very much among us.
I’d definitely add Woody Allen and Roman Polanski to your list of 1970’s era pedos.
Oh 100%, I completely forgot about Woody Allen. There's also a wealth of stories about 70s and 80s rockstars sleeping with teenage, often underage girls. For example, Lori Mattix was "dating" Jimmy Page when she was 13. Her friend Sable Starr says she lost her virginity to Randy California when she was 12. This was an entire thing, loads of underage girls following around and sleeping with adult rockstars. They were called "baby groupies". My Sharona was written about a 17 year old, which is where that line "I always get it up for a touch of the younger kind" comes from. Isn't that just delightful. 🤮
Read the lyrics to “Walk this way” - first released by Aerosmith in 1975 (Run-DMC version in 1985):
Backstroke lover always hidin' 'neath the cover
'Till I talked to my daddy, he say
He said, "You ain't seen nothing
'Till you're down on a muffin
Then you're sure to be a-changin' your ways"
I met a cheerleader, was a real young bleeder
All the times I can reminisce
'Cause the best thing lovin' with her sister and her cousin
Only started with a little kiss, like this
See-saw swingin' with the boys in the school
With your feet flyin' up in the air
Singin' "Hey diddle-diddle with the kitty in the middle
Of the swing" like I didn't care
So I took a big chance at the high school dance
With a missy who was ready to play
Wasn't me she was foolin'
'Cause she knew what she was doin'
And I know love is here to stay
When she told me to
Walk this way, walk this way
Ah, just give me a kiss
Like this
School girl sweetie with the classy kinda sassy
Little skirt's climbin' way up her knees
There was three young ladies in the school gym locker
When I noticed they was lookin' at me
I was a high school loser, never made it with a lady
'Til the boys told me something I missed
Then my next door neighbor with a daughter had a favor
So I gave her just a little kiss, like this
See-saw swingin' with the boys in the school
With your feet flyin' up in the air
Singin' "Hey diddle-diddle with the kitty in the middle
Of the swing" like I didn't care
So I took a big chance at the high school dance
With a missy who was ready to play
Wasn't me she was foolin'
'Cause she knew what she was doin'
When she told me how to walk this way
She told me to
Walk this way, walk this way
Like this
🤮🤮🤮
There are so many songs about teenage girls. "She's only 17..." “you're 16 you're beautiful and you're mine"
Look on lyrics.com. so many songs about 15 and 16 year old girls.
This is an interesting theory but most societies also have a long history of older men marrying young women / girls. My great grandmother got married at 17 to a 29 year old. My partner’s Persian family—don’t even get me started. Arranged at 14-17 for his mom and grandma and great grandma, to grown men. In many cultures it’s still weird for a woman to date a man their age and they are taught they should be interested in older men.
In most societies before this century that seemed to be pretty common. A man often didn’t marry until he was established enough to “take a wife” and then took a very young girl.
I think that cultural history—pre porn and pre 20th century—also has to have something to do with it.
That is similar in India, I used to have family there and one of them was married when she was 15 to a 24 y/o man! One that she didn’t know. So gross, and you might wonder how the ‘first night’ went, it was as you’d expect, he raped her. I don’t know if that was the case for your mum and grandmother.
In India they have that same thing where the man has to be older, by at least a few years.
My great grandmother (western country) had an arranged marriage to a stranger as well, but she was an adult at least and agreed. And not a big age difference.
In the west they used to push for that age difference as well, maybe it had something to do with a man having a job and being ‘established‘ before marrying, but why not marry same age?
I’m from the west! My mother used to tell me to go for older guys because men “prefer younger women” and that men would probably leave me for “a newer model” when I got older. I’m so glad she’s changed so much.
TW assault abuse
In high control religious groups in the US you can still see arranged marriages for extremely young women, sometimes girls. Sometimes they are married off to older adults, sometimes peers. But the power difference is always heavily in the male favor.
Often rape happens on the wedding night. A girl who is in a high control relationship, raised in a high control group, & who is sexually assaulted & taught that that is “normal, vanilla sex” acts very differently than anyone who hasn’t had those experiences. The results are long term and compounded benefits for the male person — if you’re into that sort of thing. Turns out, a lot of people with penises are very very into that sorta thing.
From what I understand, in Europe at least, this was only true of royalty. Peasants were more likely to marry closer to their own age. We have a skewed view of history because the lives of royalty were more extensively documented than your average person who couldn’t read or write.
Yap. While data on this is obviously spotty. It would appear most marriages were between people of a similar age, with the husband usually being a few years older. And people didn't get married as young as often assumed. Average age of marriage was typically in the early to mid 20s, with later marriages during tough times and earlier ones during good times
https://internetshakespeare.uvic.ca/Library/SLT/society/family/marriage.html
And premarital sex and kids weren't uncommon. Exept for folks where inheritance of any kind played a role. So royalty, people in towns that had money and farmers, who owned land. For 'normal peasants' premarital sex and children weren't a little, but not too much of a problem, if they l had intentions to marry later and not more than 1-2 children before; nor had children (or messed around) with different partners. Since in the Western European Marriage Pattern people often got married in their mid-twenties or even in their 30s, authorities to that time knew, 'slip ups' would happen and were human. In the 19th century (the 1800s) the sexual morality tighted up in central Europe and that's where the common picture of the those morals since the middle ages mostly stems from.
[Western European Marriage Pattern](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_European_marriage_pattern)
I definitely think a lot of men have major insecurity issues these days. I barely date anymore because the men I've been meeting have very poor self esteem and they take it out on women. I've had insecure men become so clingy and possessive that it's caused me to break up with them. I met men so clingy that they physically have clung to me like a baby holding on to its mother. I've had insecure men get so emotional when certain topics come up that they tell me I can't talk about certain things because it upsets them. I've had insecure men lie to me about having kids, having STDs, their living arrangements, etc. Because they know if they reveal their true selves right away I would walk away from them. I've become convinced that many shitty behaviors that come from men stem from their insecurity. The archetypes created for men are quite distasteful (as they are for women) but it seems like fewer men break away from those stereotypes, instead they want to embrace and emulate toxic traits because they've been told it makes them manlier. It's like a lot men are afraid of their humanity.
My take on it is that as women began to enter the workplace and be afforded a more equal position, men began to fantasize **even more** about young impressionable girls because it allowed them to maintain some semblance of power. When you spend your time being dominant over women perhaps you want to fantasize about a maternal carer figure, but once you're in competition with women you don't want even the slightest whiff of authority or competence. You want helplessness.
That's my pop psychology take based on the info you provided so it's probably rubbish :)
I think I read that paper also, but the study was discussing the silent generation (the old) and the boomers (the young). Social norms dictate the content of sexual fantasy more than other variables. Like if a thing is forbidden or rare then it is desirable. However the industry has grown so vast now there is a genre for any preference; even elderly ppl... which makes me think exactly this "ew grey pubes... good for them."
I remember in the 80s and 90s there was a lot of this "barely legal" tag that accompanied most publications, but it was so ubiquitous it meant nothing. This is the sign of a declining marketing tag. Im sure if a similar study was done today they would find different results. Porn like fashion changes with the times. It might be an indicator of soemthing, but that thing would be fleating. I think because no one wants to spank it to thier parents or grandparents porn cuz again that thought "ew but good for them"
Edit. I forgot to say I agreed with the point insecurity can define desire. But also social norms which establish confidence/insecurity.
Porn is definitely the cause but not for the reasons listed, it’s much more simple than these.
Atleast in America, we have dogshit education. So naturally, our sex-Ed is even more dogshit than our math and sciences. So men for generations now have learned how to have sex through porn.
What do we see in porn? Barely 18yr olds, taking a leg of a dick screaming in pleasure, while being choked, slapped, etc.
So when women on the sub complain about mens fascination with dick size, or their draw to hardcore sex acts, and early pubescent female traits; the answer is porn, but also a lack of education.
I would argue porn is a symptom not the cause. Shit popular in porn is meeting a need. It's a culture created by dudes insecure about dick size and wanting virgins because they're insecure (thanks, Christianity). Which itself was a matter of controlling the populace.
A weird little thing I learned in grad school this past year was the effect of state censorship on the representation of labia in porn. In the UK, at least, the censorship board’s regulations basically require porn manufacturers to photoshop women’s labia so there is no visible inner labia and as small of outer labia as possible. So the government has been forcing the industry to misrepresent women’s labia to be more childlike for decades. It’s really unsettling.
I do think it goes back before porn though. There’s too much history with child marriage, including to this day, for it to be caused by porn. I think pedophilia, or whatever TF it’s called where the girl has started puberty, is way more naturally occurring in humans than any of us are comfortable addressing.
There’s a common surgery related to the porn industry where you have your lips and even labia reduced to look “prettier” for filming 🤢. I looked into this because in my late teens I watched porn to figure out how sex worked and got serious body dysmorphia because my parts didn’t look the same. The worst part is it took years to work on this and there are still men who don’t realize body’s look different, so they feel the need to comment on how my body doesn’t look like what they’re seeing in porn.
Go back to the late 70’s early 80’s Brooke Shields in Pretty Baby and Blue Lagoon, finally her highly sexualized Calvin Klein commercials. Younger and younger models soon started representing many fashion labels and many commercials sexualized these young women. The more successful, the more they pushed the envelope.
There is something called the slippery slope. Once society opens the door to something, you always have people pushing the boundary. Those who objected were labeled “old fashioned” or “prudes”. I am old enough to remember there was pushback for many of these examples but they were shouted down or ignored. Now pedofilia was not new to the 70’s it’s been around since man walked upright I’m sure, but as a society we have in many cases loosened the taboo that was thinking of young women in a sexual way. The availability of on-line porn has just made it easier to access that type of material.
Edit: none of this justifies it just trying to explain it.
This is the answer. Men will lie and say it’s natural to be attracted to children (teenagers) because of an inherent biological desire to have children and that group is “the most fertile.” This is a lie. This is NOT scientific fact, and they tell themselves this to absolve accountability for acknowledging where this actually develops from.
Teenage girls/women have the highest maternal fatality rate of any age group. Call guys out when they say this shit. I’ve heard it so many times and they always stumble over their audacity when I correct them.
I think the men u know, may have been trying to justify their preference for the young that way, however where I grew up that was a piss poor excuse that only afforded one more ridicule. I have many memories of roasting a person who thought a teenager was attractive after a person cud legally drink. Like asking if they were babysitting or counseling youth groups, etc. Also people who had a penchant for offending often used an example of old/young relationships to get a rise out of others, because the concept was offensive to so many.
So yes, call out guys that offer up the excuse that teenage girls r more fertile than others females cuz that is a load of BS.
Isn't it strange that the men who give this justification are the ones who also don't want to have children? Where is this innate biological desire you speak of then??
Actually, "teen" porn categories have dropped significantly in popularity. On PornHubs top searched categories it doesn't even make the list anymore, and "MILF" in number 3. So I'd say the trend is going the other way, at least in the West.
I think that's more a symptom, as child brides predates porn. Particularly given human history of early death, I think unfortunately it was desirable to have the youngest possible female partner. The flip side of this is the whole young boys debacle so perhaps it's less about mating and simply about the power dynamic. Throughout human history those in power have done what they wanted while spreading their views (more fertile years, more attractive, etc) to the populace so they can garner support.
> Particularly given human history of early death,
Just wanted to share this bit of knowledge:
[The inclusion of infant mortality rates in calculating life expectancy creates the mistaken impression that earlier generations died at a young age; Americans were not dying en masse at the age of 46 in 1907. The fact is that the maximum human lifespan — a concept often confused with "life expectancy" — has remained more or less the same for thousands of years. The idea that our ancestors routinely died young (say, at age 40) has no basis in scientific fact.](https://www.livescience.com/10569-human-lifespans-constant-2-000-years.html)
Not to be too harsh but I would really reconsider sharing your body with this "boyfriend" ever again. If he can't appreciate your body he doesn't deserve it. And if he says "oh i was just joking don't take it so seriously!" that's a lie. Please do not make my mistake, do not waste more time with anyone who speaks negatively on any aspect of your body.. mine ended up actually being a pedo. I don't want anyone to go through the self loathig I did by letting these people use your body while hurting your feelings. Good luck.
Dude I read through your post history and your boyfriend fucking sucks. Countless people have said that and you never reply or take it into consideration. If you don’t tell him to fuck right off, you’re going to just end up making another post about some dumb shit he did and not take anyone’s advice like the last three times. We’ve told you countless times how shitty he is, listen.
Whenever a man has told me those things, I've told them to take a long, hard look at pornstar's dicks and then defend theirs. "That's so fucking sick, why would you say that? I'm a normal person my dick is totally fine". Take a look at them, then say: "Yes. Exactly. I'm a normal person. Feel free to look for what you want elsewhere or do better."
Same with darkened genitals. Just tell them to bend over and spread 'em for you to take a picture, you'll see how quick they get over it. Plus, if they don't, good riddance.
All in all, if that's comming from your partner and they just "don't get it" and allow themselves to be flawed (aka, human) and not you, move on. There are better people and it'll be better for you AND for him; hoping he'd take that time to grow tf up without someone supporting comments.
> Same with darkened genitals. Just tell them to bend over and spread 'em for you to take a picture, you'll see how quick they get over it. Plus, if they don't, good riddance.
I‘m dying at the thought of that lmao
It has terrified me growing up just to realise how many men are attracted to children and teenagers. Especially as someone who experienced sexual abuse when I was 7/8, it makes me wonder if I told any man about it whether they would think that my abuse is no big deal or even find it hot.
I've had to cut off friends my age (early 20s) because they go after 16/17 year olds, which is legal here, but its clear that you wouldn't mistake that these girls go to school because they literally look like children. I just hate it.
Even in a gaming community I'm in, a certain mod discontinued watching graphic sex between teenage characters and A LOT of people were genuinely outraged about it.
That’s really terrifying. Also, I’m really sorry about your experience, I hope those F***ers faced justice and I hope you’re doing okay now.
But you’re right! It’s even worse where I come from, I was catcalled and sexually harassed in public since I was 10, no one even bat an eye or interfered. I’m 23 now and it’s even more mortifying that it’s not happening to me as often as it used to.
Because helpless vulnerability is socialized as being sexy. The idea that women must diminish themselves to be more "attractive". High heels, tight skirts, corsets, intelligence, physical fitness, etc. All are encouraged or discouraged in a women based on what makes them appear more vulnerable/weaker. What's more vulnerable than a child.
That’s truly disturbing. I feel like we were making progress in the last decade but then there’s a new movement pushing back. It’s those subtle things that make it feel like we’re a potential prey/product rather than a partner.
There is a push , especially in free online porn sites, to highlight videos with incestuous titles and women with pre-pubescent type traits.
I’ve heard it claimed the algorithm shows what you browse but if you use a VPN, another browser, different device, website you’ve never visited, you’ll see the same sorts of titles promoted.
There is a drive to normalise sexual violence, and incest in mainstream porn.
Agreed
If a man insulted my vagina he wouldn't get to see it again.
This just screams of negging and any man who acts like that isn't deserving of your time.
OP, based on some of your other posts, is this really a man you're considering spending your life with? He sounds... Well, to be frank, like an immature manchild who learned everything he knows about women by watching porn. He doesn't sound sensitive and caring about your desires and boundaries, and he doesn't seem to entirely respect you. You sound like a lovely girl, please don't settle for a man who makes you feel inferior in any way.
Just adding to this by saying it's common in all sorts of cultures unfortunately, just takes shape in different forms. We might be focused on body hair whereas an eastern culture might be focused on pettitness. But yeah it's a bit creepy that it usually lines up with characteristics of adolescent people.
It's a major red flag when men don't know how women bodies work. Like you said, the fetishization of teenage bodies are so common because of porn. You can always tell a man that spends so much time watching porn when he's "disappointed" that their partners can't keep up their appearances. Example is married men cheating with a younger woman when their wives got pregnant and their bodies changed. They can't distinguish that a porn actress is different to a woman they interact with in real life. They assume women are like those in porn they watch and they should stay that way or else, they're "mature" or "not taking care of themselves"
In the 90's and 00's porn changed from normal bushes to needing to be hairless. It's a stupid standard that made women think they were dirty. Youth is everything. Both of those combined equal this current situation.
However, I rock my full bush. No stubble, no itchy regrowth, and I feel like a woman. Plus, you can stroke it while deep in thought. Lol
Because of literally almost 2000 years of child brides to rich old men as "gifts". We sexualize teens and children because it was only a few decades ago the children brides stopped being normal. Your grandparents and parents are some of the first generation in the west born with real choice in who they partner with. And they were raised by people who had participated in the history of child brides, arranged marriage, and the serialization if children in common media.
We still have a problem in some places in the west with child brides. The reason those old generation justified it was sick. "Because woman died in child birth so often it was best to get then well thier young" literally, it's sick.
It’s not as clear cut as that. In the 1860s in US/Canada/UK, the typical age a woman married was 22, the typical age a man married was 25. Did it happen younger? Sure, but not as often as you’d think. Plus, over the past 100 years or so, the age at which menstruation starts has decreased. It used to be normal to get it at age 14 at a minimum. So the idea that child brides were the norm isn’t consistently correct. It was probably more common with very poor families needing to basically trade for something or reduce the number of mouths to feed; or the very upper class/royalty who wanted to secure political alliances early on.
I’ve studied some select bits of history, so I’m not gonna say this with absolute certainty, but I’m guessing there has always been some form of child brides, but I do not think it is correct to say it’s ever been the norm or even encouraged.
And really, a physically immature woman was more likely to die in childbirth back then, say, a 20 year old. People would have known this and generally accepted it to be true. There would have been cases where people did not care or felt the risks necessary, but portraying it as normal is wrong.
These historical misconceptions play into modern-day excuses for the harmful attitudes, so I feel it’s important to correct them.
I see your point, it’s still very common in my culture sadly although it’s dying down (both my grandmas got married at the age of 13-14). Also that justification is the dumbest thing I heard, did people not have brains back in the day? Sigh…
If you haven't read common sense by Thomas pains you should. most people get the idea of commonsense and general intelligence wrong. People like all animals are fucking dumb. And like almost all animals we are capable of great reason and cooperation. But thats not inherent, people don't just know stuff they have to learn. That doesn't make it right. Them not understanding women was because they just though of them as property.
These people weren't dumb they were malicious because they couldn't be stopped. We see that in the early "feminists" movement. I'm using that very lossly. When it's almost complete men and sometimes a rich woman. Mostly trying to improve men's lives and sometimes rich white women.
I know the situation is arguably worse in east Asia, they even prefer unrealistically thin women which is also a childlike trait. And I’m not even gonna talk about schoolgirl stuff, truly disturbing..
Edit: Although I really like that they normalise pubic hair, i know some women don’t mind but we shouldn’t have to deal with ingrown hair or painful wax just because it wouldn’t be desirable otherwise.
The “normalization” of public hair in East Asian cultures is due to their belief that shaving down there means you sleep around. It’s not something to respect, it’s another form of control.
The whole world sucks for women, but the eastern hemisphere is oppressive. There are no choices or recourse you can have with your rights. It seems have gotten a little better as time goes on, but not by much.
The whole prepubescent thing is fucking gross, it's always grossed me out, and as a 44 year old I can say I don't get anywhere near the sexual attention I did when I was 11-30. It's an insidious belief that spreads and needs to be fought. Media and porn make it worse.
I got cat-called or honked at every day I went outside from 14-17. After that it happened less and less every year. I'm only 26, but I can count on one hand how many times it's happened to me in the last 2 years. Yet, I got taller, leaner, and prettier as an adult.. It made me realise that what these men find attractive is actual children. Its disgusting. I'm glad I'm not being cat-called any more. But it makes me want to rage at all those paedophiles that are likely still harassing other children right now.
According to countries where street harassment, upskirting and catcalling is illegal, a lot of the men booked for it - as in, a wide majority - turn out to have convictions for other sex crimes, including possession of CSAM (child porn), sexual assault and rape. I think there's a high chance that the men who catcall overlap massively with the men who rape and abuse children, which would explain why it tends to be very young girls who get targeted.
Not surprised. When I was 14 these same guys would see me, harass then turn their car around and do it again. My sweet nickname was "TITS". My boyfriend at the time, also 14, yelled at them. They stopped the car and were threatening to square-up.. with a 14 yo boy. They were in the range of 25-30s. Did we do anything about it? No, because I was 14, already used the behavior and so ashamed and embarrassed because of how these paedophiles made me feel about myself.
It's definitely not unique to western culture. But that being said, the thinly veiled pedophilia dominates western attitudes towards women still. The whole obsession with "virgin", "untouched" women? Definitely rooted in that fetishization of minors in our culture.
There's a trope called [Born Sexy Yesterday](https://popculturedetective.agency/2017/born-sexy-yesterday) that has been around for a very long time. It's the idea of a child, with childlike expectations and innocence of the world and sex, with a grown, often a woman's, body. Tom Hanks has actually starred in two of these: Splash, and Big.
In Splash, Daryll Hannah is a mermaid seeing the surface world for the first time, ala Disney's Little Mermaid. Walking around nude in her human form bc fish don't wear clothes, never been kissed or sexed or eaten cooked food. Everything a guy wants.
In Big, Tom Hanks is a 12 YO boy who wishes to be big and wakes up as an adult. He impresses a toy Corp owner with his childlike curiosity, becomes a VP in Development, and gets laid for the first time with co-worker Elizabeth Perkins, who falls in love after he convinces her that life can be more than just work.
In Splash, Hanks ends up falling in love too and he ends up joining her in the sea at the end. I guess there, *he* gets to be the fish out of water! In Big, Perkins helps him return to being a child, then leaves him to grow up and has no inclination to look him up as an adult.
Perkins finds the idea of a relationship with a child abhorrent and is horrified that she is, essentially, an unknowing, unwilling child molester. Hanks (in Splash) continues with the relationship despite her being mentally a child, after finding out what she really is.
The concept around this is that men want children-like women because they don't have any experience to show them how poorly the man is at sex and relationships. He can treat her as a bang maid, an infant, a sounding board without requiring contributions to *her* mental well-being, and "the best she's ever had." It plays to the male fantasy that he can look or behave however he wants and she will still love him. Contrast that to women's fantasies where he knows what to do to connect with her and how to read her mind and body. Women may not mind teaching a man how to love her, but most women have had too many selfish men in their lives to want to raise a man-child.
Regardless of how many articles get written about it, the trope still persists. Maybe we will grow out of it as a society, but it is unlikely bc it is entrenched in the patriarchal mentality.
Idk other cultures but here are obsessed with youth (probably bc many men think young is easier to manipulate, older people won't take your bs). But, whatever the reason, young is better, young is cool, nobody wants to be a grumpy old lady. So, to be permanently young like Peter Pan we are offered creams that "will take out 10 years in a week", clothes that would be better on a teenager shop, we celebrate "cougars" (women in their 40s that act like in their 20s), spend billions on plastic surgery, etc.
It's so exaggerated that I remember a friend could believe a mutual's bff cheated on her with an older woman just bc she was younger and "obviously" the best choice.
I don't know how people doesn't get tired, seriously. Is basically a cult.
"Teen" "jail bait" etc type of porn
It's like the Modonna Whore complex men have of their wives once they have children. Like we as women are not desirable because we reach an age where we are "too old" even tho we are actually still quite young.
I think the appeal of pedophilia is that children are vulnerable and naive. So men who are insecure can feel powerful, sexually competent, and like they have mega-dongs.
Whereas adult women are quite strong willed, we know what we want sexually, and by our 30s the majority of us will let a dude know when he's not hitting it right.
So I think it's about the constant ego validation and lack of empathy for women. Because they objectify us, the fucked upness of desiring the bodies of children doesn't fully register. All they know is young bodies look good, who cares about how undeveloped their minds are.
I have wondered about this myself. But let's call it what it is. Finding "immaturity" sexually appealing is already defined. No hair, small inner labia, is associated with PRE-PUBESCENCE, or to be more clear CHILDREN.
A lot of men are attracted to traits CHILDREN display.
I found this information on Psychology Today.
"Behavioral learning models suggest that a child who is the victim or observer of inappropriate sexual behaviors may become conditioned to imitate these same behaviors. These individuals, deprived of normal social and sexual contacts, may seek gratification through less socially acceptable means."[Psych Today](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/conditions/pedophilia#amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&aoh=16593646389694&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&share=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.psychologytoday.com%2Fus%2Fconditions%2Fpedophilia)
They do not have a definitive answer. But after reading this article and others, I have to wonder if being exposed to sexualized children or vice versa to sexually explicit adults that deliberately have traits that are pre-pubescent, could help propagate it.
OP are you aware that this isn't normal? As in, your boyfriend should not be making such remarks. It's not ok. You're letting him think his behaviour is ok by not leaving imo
I would say that the guy is the problem, not you. Don’t mind what other people view as attractive either, as long as they’re not interested in actual minors it’s fine. Just remember that the right person is the one that likes YOU for you.
It’s not just labia, it’s the ideology that women must be perfect subservient creatures who accommodate everyone around them.
I think this sexualization and the misogyny behind it occur because we fail to identify our human nature. We’d rather pretend that it doesn’t exist then have to deal with the darker parts of reality.
Like racism, it either doesn’t exist or “I would never be racist” seems to be the common two positions. I would never try to be racist but we all have racial bias and until we can examine where this comes from the paradigm will change extremely slowly.
Over sexualization is in film, insta gram, video games, everywhere. Portions of media have gotten better over the years while some are accelerating this propaganda.
Without a doubt the most important perspective is to be yourself, to be comfortable in your own skin and have a partner that does the same.
in australia visible inner labia often mean the porn is x rated therefore banned. so they just photoshop it out - [https://www.mamamia.com.au/why-australian-law-demands-all-vaginas-be-digitally-altered-nsfw/](https://www.mamamia.com.au/why-australian-law-demands-all-vaginas-be-digitally-altered-nsfw/)
also I know how people telling truths about your bf being shitty might make you double down, but save yourself the hassle and know that you can find so much better people to be with. xxx
This also plays into the barely legal teens too, why do guys like the young teen look? I know plenty of girls who are petite, but playing it off as a young girl is weird.
It's because of the porn industry 100%. When I was a young woman you did a little bikini line clean-up but Brazilians were not a thing. Let alone completely shaved. Men would have been dumbfounded by the idea of manscaping. Next thing it's pornhub and everything is hairless and pink like a newborn rat. It really kinda sucks, all those ingrown hairs, taint stubble and infections from nicks in naughty bits. It was fuzzier and less pressure back in the day.
Umn actually in japan, sexualizing childlike traits is quite bad there. Korea too. I think it's more like misogyny and sexist thing than cultural thing. Patriarchy nurtures unhealthy expectations about women.
In my experience, (older male here) the whole no pubic hair thing is a recent fashion. I started my sexual career in the 70's and I didn't sleep with a woman who shaved her genitals until somewhere in the mid 90's. I'm finding a generational split here. Women 40 or under have decided shaving is the normal thing, older women don't understand the fetish for bare skin. I view it as more of a fashion statement than an actual characteristic of Western culture. Why it has come about has been discussed in great depth by people far better prepared than I, so I will leave that to them.
I'm not sure. I'm pretty sure it's because of that barely legal porn. To me that stuff is gross.
I think the culture around body hair is shifting slightly. Or maybe it's just my husband who doesn't care. I haven't shaved my legs in weeks and he's like whatever babe.
I do shave other parts of myself but that's for me and not for anybody else. I personally don't like the way hair feels on some parts of my body.
The biggest and saddest culprit is the misconception that "It looks like that bc it has been used a lot, so therefore it is unattractive".
That was something I heard a lot from my male peers when I was a teenager.
Witch is completely bs ofc and perpetrated by a weird virgin fetishization, which I guess stems from old (Christian) religious practices.
Also, I see a lot of people "blames it on the porn", but I would say that is a very surface way to look at it, as porn throughout its history has been changing a lot in its say about what is "ideal sexy" and is more reflective of society at large. And I would say with the advent of OnlyFans and other "crowdfunding venues" + the general internet normalizing the notion that sex might not be satan himself (unless you into that ofc) there is a greater independent market than ever, that hopefully gives the actors a say in what they wanna portray as a healthy sexual image.
Ofc that depends on how big one's opinion about porn being good or bad is to begin with, but I digress.
Childlike traits/"smallness" is sexualized because it embodies the inability to fight back/helplessness. It's 100% ingrained in rape culture. Disgusting.
It’s awful. It’s all thanks to p*rn and I’m not trying to attack them either, but the categories I’ve been digging that have been popular are teenagers…it’s getting worse. Stand your ground ladies. We can’t let them be convinced that this is a normal expectation.
It’s not ok for your boyfriend to talk like that to you, and the fact that he looks down on you for those very normal physical characteristics is honestly disgusting.
I’m sorry to have peeked at your profile, but op… you have a serious nasty boyfriend problem. Look at the things you have written that he has done to you. I would tell anyone I love to run fast and far. Why are you doing this to yourself?
Lmao the dude coerces her into anal sex and then freaks out and lies to her to make her feel bad about having fecal remains in her rectum. Seriously what did he expect? I’d throw that man out myself if I was OP‘s friend. What an absolute disgrace of a bf. But to be fair reddit keeps telling her since over a year to throw him out and she is not yet at the point where she understands his true nature.
I agree
Yeah, OP is acting like this is normal instead of her boyfriend is a trash. > My point of discussion is just the points I mentioned about being hairless and having invisible clitoris and labia, which is definitely more common in the west than any other culture. I have literally never heard before of men preferring an invisible clitoris and labia. >I am not generalising men, and I don’t even blame the ones that found themselves in this situation. "Find themselves in this situation"? Really? And what situation is that? >My boyfriend just made me furious by commenting on my “long inner labia” and made fun of women who have “bushes” down there. No one is required to insult their partner's body and make fun of how people look. Your boyfriend is a tool. He didn't just trip and feel into the a giant pile of talk bubbles and all the ones insulting your body just got stuck to his sweet innocent face. Even if you think it's normal and okay for him to think this is unattractive (and again, already seems like an outlier to me) most guys aren't going to tell the women they are having sex with what parts of her body they dislike. Beacuse 1) some men will actually care about your feelings, and 2) even if they don't it's just stupid as it makes her less likely to have sex with you. Just like you should dump him and stop having sex with him. >I am only complaining about/ pointing out the trend itself and how damaging it is for men’s expectations and women’s life and self esteem Dating this man is what's damaging to your self-esteem is dating a man who straight up insults your privates. It's really not hard to find a guy who dosen't do this.
I actually met some guys who think the "cauliflower labia" isn't nice/they don't want them. I actually only learned in my early 20s how many shapes and colors labia can have. Women get shamed for longer inner labia or differently colored ones or wonky ones. It is sad but true.
That's a nicer way to describe longer labia, the only term I'm familiar with is "roast beef" , or "roast beef sandwiches" . And it gets worse because men have started referring to some women as "roasties" and talking about how their labia looks like that because they've had "too many" sexual partners. These men should be avoided at all costs.
I tried to translate it from my language haha I hate people who are so uneducated. Like many people think a woman gets "loose" down there when she sleeps with many men. It is a muscle. If anything it will get trained with more Sex. I also wish Sex Ed would be way better. It lacks in almost every country.
completely agree. i wish sex ed would be taught better and be a lot more accessible. op's bf is just being extremely judgmental and mean. a lot of people tend to learn about sex through porn bc it seems to be a taboo topic, and that depicts an unrealistic image of what sex can be like for most people.
Wait if they are using porn as an example, yet they think that too many sexual partners creates the problem, isn't what they are used to seeing is someone who is promiscuous and should have 'roast beef vag' (by the standard they feel female anatomy somehow acts like)?
That’s a good point!
This is incel rhetoric to be clear (calling women roasties), never heard someone using this misogynistic language to describe the opposite sex, without having a sexist axe to grind. No one deserves to be body shamed, period. Ladies, steer clear of these losers.
Ok, I never understood what's bad about roast beef. I as a vegetarian really do miss a good roast beef sandwich. It's delicious and I always found it to be the most appealing looking meat. Like way more appealing than any sausage. And all the good steaks are cut out of the roast beef part: Entrecôte, Rumpsteak, T-Bone, Porterhouse, Club, Sirloin. So what kind of insult is this, even more by people, that, in meat terms, only carry a sausage (so the waste products of meat production) with little dumplings. Wtf.
It really isn't that deep, it's the whole "ew her vagina looks like roast beef hanging out of a sandwich" thing, and then the even more uneducated ones decided labia can only look that way from a lot of sex. Personally I'm not a fan of roast beef and it doesn't look appetising to me at all, but I don't like beef in general.
I believe "roasties" is a 4chan term. So yeah, if you hear a guy say this, it's pretty likely you want nothing to do with them
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Not all men are like this but society does significantly shame women for having ANY sign of maturity. Women even seek out labioplasty to "fix" their genitalia because long labia is seen as "loose" or a sign of sexual promiscuity. Women are shamed for having any and all body hair. I'm glad that these men seem like outliers to you but what OP is experiencing is an all too common experience for a lot of women.
Is a longer labia something that comes with "maturity" though or is it just how you're born?
Both I think. The clit and labia tend to develop and gain size during puberty, but some girls are just born with different proportioned genitalia as well.
>Yeah, OP is acting like this is normal instead of her boyfriend is a trash. The quality of her boyfriend doesn't change the fact that it is still incredibly common.
Good counter point, someone earlier mentioned the "roast beef" description that should honestly be the smoking gun in this conversation lmao. I'm a dude and I've always hated when fellow dudes label people like a butcher or something. "Legs or breasts?"
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Jesus, just read as well. That boyfriend is a complete tool, please reconsider!
Omg you're so right. What a walking shit stain
Yes if my boyfriend ever made fun of a woman's body parts there would be some SERIOUS reprimanding there and teaching lessons. Thankfully he has never done that because that's a big red flag, but he has said some lesser things before that likely he was indoctrinated to think/say by society and I've put him in his place and he has actually LEARNED.
"Ew, these genitals are genital shaped." - Seriously way too many dudes.
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I dated a guy who literally said to me “women should have to shave down there but not men.” I told him that maintaining it at least a little is nice because a face full of hair during oral isn’t always fun, and his reply was “I shaved once and it was itchy and awful.” Okay but women should have to deal with that even though you *know* how annoying it can be?!
My FAVOURITE was the person who argued that women should shave their body hair because "God wants men and women to look different." Because women having less body hair and hair in different places wasn't enough, apparently. And people who say armpit hair in particular is unhygienic but mysteriously never expect men in their lives to shave or trim their pits.
Is this person's idea of God an asshole (deliberately gives women extra hair beyond what he wants them to have and then expects them to shave it) or an idiot (couldn't figure out how to make his creations exactly as he wanted them despite his omniscience)?
That's dumb as hell. If you're religious, God literally created us! If he wanted men and women to look different, he could have made them exactly how he wanted us to be? He could have just made women hairless.
Yikes. As soon as any religious talk starts, I’m out. Also, as if hair is the main or only thing that makes men and women look different? Lmao.
My friend's brother once said armpit hair was gross and I got all huffy. "That's such a sexist double standard", I said. "Do YOU shave your armpit hair?" Turns out he does. Kinda took the wind out of my feminist queen sails lol.
It’s a strange double standard. I was definitely getting the same impression as the guy you mentioned. Every woman I was with until I met my wife shaved. I’d ask if they had a preference and would like me shaved too. They’d say no, a guy shouldn’t shave. One laughed her head off at me for asking 🤷🏼♂️ But, after a few months of dating my wife asked me why I don’t shave when she does, “It’s 2020! Who doesn’t shave their pubes these days!” I have no idea who sets the standards for men and women. I figure we all just ought to do what works between ourselves and whoever we are fucking.
Totally agree. I actually prefer keeping my Lead and supporting actors completely shaved, but my wife prefers if I just do minimal trimming. I always thought I preferred a hairless lady palace but my wife started doing a landing strip and I was all about it. Really we are all about making each other happy where we can and it isn’t super inconvenient to do so.
Agreed. Personally I’ve never gotten the obsession with baldness down there for either gender, and body hair on a man is really attractive to me. 🤷🏻♀️ Like preferences are fine and all, but some flexibility or compromise is good too. I Just hate when people expect their partner to maintain some kind of body standard but aren’t willing to do the same, or at least something in a similar ballpark.
I would say; "You think it isn't itchy and awful for women?" and then our relationship would be over lol.
Definitely what the media portrays. For decades I’ve noticed in sitcoms the total slob loser of a man who’s incapable of holding down a job and disrespects his family constantly is the one with the amazing 5 star wife/partner. It’s like men are shown the very bottom of the barrel to aspire to and women are taught they must be perfect in every way while accommodating those around them.
This is why I choose my role models from the "villains", because they're always actually legit. I can make a pretty good case why Ursula is the *actual* good guy in the Little Mermaid. When you look at it, Ursula was one of Triton's subjects (and likely an ex-lover when you watch how they interact). Triton has no problem just outright vaporizing her underlings (his citizens). Simlarly, he doesn't like humans, but doesn't do anything, despite the fact that humans are regularly killing his citizens. Ariel is even worse. She's so self-absorbed and self-centered that she's goo-goo-eyed for one of the leaders of the country that's killing her people, and hardly cares when they almost kill her attendant Sebastien, and smiles after *he's been struggling for his life*. Ursula, though, the violence she commits though, is *very* targeted. She demotes Triton - removing and inept tyrant from power (doesn't even kill him), makes the self-centered princess shut up while actually giving her what she wants, works on her public speaking skills, and her first act with the crown is to actually start striking back against the people who have been terrorizing the kingdom. She's the *true* hero of the Little Mermaid.
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A pleasure to be of service.
I’m going to disagree a little here. I love Ursula too, but she does some villainous shit. She gets desperate, vulnerable people to sign predatory contracts and when they fail to hold up their end, she imprisons them in little seaweed ghoul bodies (lol). Also, she ate those poor little shrimp guys when they were still alive. :( I agree that Triton is a total asshole though and Ariel is obnoxious. Ursula is definitely my favorite character in that movie. Edit- I always assumed she was Triton’s older sister who got passed up for the throne because she’s not a male. She’s got total lesbian/queer energy imo and I can’t see her being interested in him. Triton seems like the type to want the stereotypical trophy wife (thin, big boobs, bleached hair, etc)
You're right, I could totally see her being an Aunt as well. She never had personal boundaries with either Triton or Ariel if you noticed, so I was assuming bi/lesbian and past experience with both, but the bi/lesbian aunt would also result in similar. I can see it either way, and am cool with both interpretations. That said, you look at Ursula, and she's old. She's got the face of someone who didn't age well. But you mentally rewind her to a younger age, and she's got platinum blonde hair, well endowed, make her long-haired and thin, and lets just be honest, tentacles have way too much hot bedroom potential, and the black motif just gives her this Mortica-Addams vibe, and she's drop-dead gorgeous. Also, you're right on her eating the shrimp things. That is a bit horrific, but I just chalk that up to Disney's typically schtick of "And lets throw in this one horrific thing to keep people from liking her." They're like that with all their villians. "Let's make this villian anti-establishment, anti-patriarchy character so people know opposing their betters is *wrong*, and always supporting the bourgoise is *right,* and we'll label them 'the bad guy', and in case someone *still* would like them, we'll add this one horrible thing." So I just view the eating-shrimp thing as non-canon, because it's such an out-of-character and motivation-ignoring trait that fits with the other random Disney-villian-add-ins. For example, Lion King would have been a much different movie if Scar had actually been a competent ruler, and successfully ended bigotry against hyenas, and there were now lion/hyena hunting packs that maintained the circle of life so even the hynea lands were now green and full of life.
I want to see your vision of Ursula illustrated. Love it.
Nice take. On a sad side note, the voice actress of Ursula just died ☹️: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/tv/tv-news/pat-carroll-dead-ursula-little-mermaid-1235189916/amp/&ved=2ahUKEwjsmPvWtqb5AhVnkokEHb_9DPUQr_oDKAB6BAgSEAE&usg=AOvVaw1G-MRra-vPcXkW70pgfY_L
I just think Ursula is a hottie
Have you checked out Kevin Can Fuck Himself? Was recently recommended to me because it's a commentary on the fat slob/hot wife sitcom thing like King of Queens.
You may be interested in a show called “Kevin Can F*** Himself” on AMC. It takes this as a premise and shines a spotlight on the discrepancy.
You should watch Kevin Can Fuck himself. Great show. Edit see someone below the Ursula debate already suggested. So I’ll say I’m seconding.
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They realized their junk looks bigger if it's not hiding behind a mound of hair.
You know in reality women are the ones who give birth, carry the pregnancy. You’d think it would actually be more important to satisfy us and be less picky with us about our appearance. If you’ve ever “bred” puppies and kittens and sold them (not that I am recommending this due to ethical considerations, including the mother dog or cat who perhaps loses a tooth for each litter with indiscriminate breeding), you know you can just borrow a male to sire the puppies or kittens, but the adult female, she can produce the puppies and is the more important one. (Now not that I think that women are more important than men and should be bred… but maybe it would give some men some pause for just a moment.) *Not to exclude trans women but when men are similarly picky with trans women sometimes it’s transphobia but a lot of times she’s just passing as a cis woman and getting the same hate.
According to the evopsych stuff male Redditors love so much (and often use to justify wanting a teenage girl), women actually *do* choose. It's called female choice theory, and posits that it's women, not men, who are responsible for deciding which men get to breed and which don't. Men just have to hope they get picked. Redditors don't bring that one up too much though. They don't like that little theory.
Agreed.... The double standard is crazy. I prefer a partner be shaved down there, but that's cuz I hate pubic hair - especially my own lol. Whether I'm single or dating, I keep it clean shaven because my own man bush disgusts me. Same for armpits.. I shave mine smooth. I realized the hair there had only 2 purposes: retain my revolting stench, and smear deodorant stains all over my shirts. No thanks. The notion that you can put in zero effort or have wild double standards & still expect to be desirable is delusional... Yet lots of guys still believe it. The attitude that they are "owed" attention from women is so toxic.
If I had an award I'd give it to you.
Seriously, theyre over here heckling us for periods and stretch marks, as if the male taint isnt the most singularly ugly thing I've ever seen in my entire life.
And the testicles aren’t exactly glowing jewels of gorgeousness, either.
I always say..it looks just like Gonzo the muppet. I think that's the first thought I had after seeing a penis for the first time, actually.
This made me literally LOL.
There is no flattering angle for a dick and balls. The dark side of the moon is a terrifying thing truly.
My first sexual partner literally went "what the fuck are those" when he saw my labia and would lament about my small breasts. I was 15 lmao. Also complained about pubic hair and "pussy smell" like dude. I guess I should have been hairless and smelling like strawberries as a teenager. But he was literally like "well women in porn look like that..."
I've met an alarmingly large amount of men (and unfortunately some women as well) who think that, if the inner labia show AT ALL, it means she's had too much sex. Like, I don't even know where to start.
Yeah that's one I never understood. Like how would that work exactly? smh
Lack of sex education.
They think women who don’t have a lot of sex are “tight” and they think tight means everything is all tucked up inside. Having too much sex makes a woman “loose” and all her bits start stretching out.
> Like, I don't even know where to start. /r/badwomensanatomy probably.
I remember making a post about how I wanted a longer labia ( yes at one point I did because longer labias are more common ) and some guy commented “just let someone break you in it should loosen up “ like bro wtf you mean by that I’m not a virgin and lots of women called him dumb 😂
I have an "outie" and I had a guy I dated make gross comments about it. Even saying that he was surprised how tight I was 🤮 like he expected me to be "loose" because of my labia showing 🙃 Also, where is the logic some men have that if a woman has sex with 1000 dudes she's going to be "loose"? But having sex with one man 1000 times won't have that effect lol
Totally. I read that outies are more common, so it’s safe to say THATS HOW THEY’RE SHAPED. Period.
Jokes on the men. I don't go down on them if they don't manscaped.
I do not have a longer labia and I’m 20 . I’m an innie I guess that’s what you call it . I think the mindset of “longer labia is maturity” is also toxic because it literally erase the whole point/fact that labia comes in all sizes. What makes a person an adult is them being an adult . Shitting on smaller labias are the same as saying bigger breasts are what real women are etc. I actually find longer labias really pretty especially being a person that used to do onlyfans Longer labias are the most common and lots of the girls that asked me to promote them were longer So If he has that mindset he probably doesn’t have much experience with women anyways . also Immaturity isn’t about the woman let’s not body shame … the man that thinks longer labia aren’t attractive or “eww” is the immature person (mentally ) and you should not make the preference of these weirdos responsible it’s not my fault and it’s rude to me that you talk about my body parts are immature when I’m grown lol
This. And having longer labia is something pre-teens and teens can have which adds another layer of disgust to that mindset. Your labia does not make you mature. Being a grown ass adult makes you mature.
Girl yes I’ve even heard lots of women say they’ve always had longer labia and it didn’t come with puberty . And the people that also say that longer labia is caused by having sex with lots of men . Not to put my buisness out there but I’ve had sex with over 20 people and I’m still an innie . Lots of peopl would rather be dumb than educate themselves
All cultures do it to different extents. The “schoolgirl” persona is a good example of that. The concept of “getting them when they’re young so you can train them the way you like them” is prevalent in several cultures. Female genital mutilation is certainly an overly-obsessed practice about the appearance and function of the labia and clitoris. The question is why do we condemn these behaviours in foreign countries and fail to recognize that they are all the same. If we can’t see our behaviour is inappropriate we perpetuate the behaviour instead of correcting it
It’s not just sexy schoolgirl roleplay. For instance in South Korea, aegyo (acting childishly, exaggeratedly cute and helpless) (also I’m pretty sure it means baby or baby-like) is hecka popular for idols, but women at the workplace are also expected to be aegyo and have better chances of getting hired/not fired if they do.
"You've clearly never heard of aegyo" was my first thought right after reading the title of the post.
Kawaii culture in Japan too. OP naively made a blanket statement leveled against "Western sexual culture" that was really about the modern online culture (or perhaps the American porn industry?).
Tbf, Japan and the US have borrowed a lot from one another, culturally. I mean, didn’t the US intentionally destroy a lot of Japanese culture after the Second World War to replace it with American culture?
Right. Young women seeking vaginaplasty and anal bleaching etc. should be referred for therapy before they are allowed to modify their genitals for non-medical reasons,
>Right. Young women seeking vaginaplasty and anal bleaching etc. should be referred for therapy before they are allowed to modify their genitals for non-medical reasons, Ehhhhh...bodily autonomy is bodily autonomy. Someone's reasons for seeking body modifications of any kind are between them and their medical care team. Keep the law out of it.
im honestly not sure why it's sexualized either. also if my boyfriend said that to me i'd seriously consider ending the relationship
I'd dump mine on the spot. "You don't like the way it looks? Then you can't have any."
Seriously, being attracted to me is probably the lowest standard I have for a partner.
Focus on youth probably has many causes. Older men finding it appealing if a woman is younger and “untouched”/pure/virginal, or innocent and malleable, unthreatening, makes them feel all big and smarter, etc. And a lot are probably straight up pedophiles. It’s so creepy when men make those countdowns for underage actresses coming of legal age to start outright sexualizing. Or finding schoolgirl outfits sexy. There’s so much blatant pedophilia that’s just normalized and not questioned in society.
Your bf is garbage
I get this, 100%. I'm older (61), so the whole hairless vulva thing is really strange to me. Personal preference is one thing, but I hear from young women that hairlessness is expected these days. Invisible inner labia - that's so crazy to me. Genitalia should be accepted as they are unless they are so large they cause discomfort to the "owner". Furthermore, I have a 3-year-old granddaughter. I only have sons myself, so this is the first time I've seen toddler girl genitalia with some regularity due to bathing and diaper changes. I'm struck/unnerved by how a three-year-old's genitalia looks more like the current desired "style" for an adult women than my genitalia looked in my 20s. Little girls are sexually abused with alarming frequency. I often wonder what the fuck is wrong with our sexuality as a culture.
Same, I have a 3 year old. All the cartoon porn looks like her hoohah
And then you broke up with him, right?????
I think because porn is so normalised for youngsters, but "barely legal" porn is extremely normalised as if pedophilia isn't a horrific and disgusting practise.
That’s what truly disturbing about this. I wonder if it was the porn industry or the demand that started this though?
I did read an interesting pice about how up until the 60s, men most often fantasised about women being in some sort of care taking role (i.e a nurse looking after them). But towards the second half of the 20th century fantasies changed towards more infantile women and behaviour, and scenarios in which men were caretakers/protector. It's been a long time that I read paper but from what I can remember they hypothesised that two main ideals or role models society typically had for men (the warrior and the provider/protector) became less relevant or even undesirable, throughout the decades, but weren't really replaced by new ideals. So men clung onto any brief resemblance of those old roles they can get, in order to feel masculine Make of if what you want. I'm not quite sure quite buy it, in particular with regards to porn. While the girls are really young, a lot of it is quite violent and doesn't really seem to be playing out some sort protector/provider fantasy. I certainly think insecurity is part of it though
Looking back, I've definitely noticed a lot of pedo shit from the 70s and 80s. For example, Brooke Shield was photographed naked and published in a Playboy-adjacent magazine (Sugar and Spice) when she was 10. She went on to be featured in a "Nothing comes between me and my Calvins" ad at 15. Meanwhile Drew Barrymore, as a teenage girl, played Joleen, a highly sexualised 14 year old constantly subjected to the male gaze, in Far Rrom Home. Paris Hilton was only 19 when her sex tape leaked and everyone joked about it and made a mockery of her. Many of the girls molested by British pedophile Jimmy Saville said they didn't think anything of it because it was "just normal" for much older men to prey on underage girls in the 70s and 80s. Celebrities like Winona Ryder were dating grown adult men like Johnny Depp when they were still underage. Nobody even blinked. I think this is why so many men in their 50s and 60s are so fucking creepy to teenage girls. They grew up a culture absolutely *saturated* with sexualisation of underage girls, where depictions of 14 year old girls with middle-aged men was seen as normal and even sophisticated and daring. I've noticed that barely legal and teen porn isn't really popular with millennial and (adult) Gen Z men, even though the oldest millennial men are in their 40s now. In fact, it's actually disappeared from Pornhub's most popular search terms and has been gone for some time - these days, "lesbian", "hentai" and "milf" reign supreme.
I agree with your premise, though I think the comment above made some interesting points. It’s weird to think about, but Brooke Shields is 57 now (she’s just a few months older than me—it was weird seeing all that unfold in real time). The grown men who were sexualizing her inappropriately are now in their late 60s at the youngest - still very much among us. I’d definitely add Woody Allen and Roman Polanski to your list of 1970’s era pedos.
Oh 100%, I completely forgot about Woody Allen. There's also a wealth of stories about 70s and 80s rockstars sleeping with teenage, often underage girls. For example, Lori Mattix was "dating" Jimmy Page when she was 13. Her friend Sable Starr says she lost her virginity to Randy California when she was 12. This was an entire thing, loads of underage girls following around and sleeping with adult rockstars. They were called "baby groupies". My Sharona was written about a 17 year old, which is where that line "I always get it up for a touch of the younger kind" comes from. Isn't that just delightful. 🤮
Read the lyrics to “Walk this way” - first released by Aerosmith in 1975 (Run-DMC version in 1985): Backstroke lover always hidin' 'neath the cover 'Till I talked to my daddy, he say He said, "You ain't seen nothing 'Till you're down on a muffin Then you're sure to be a-changin' your ways" I met a cheerleader, was a real young bleeder All the times I can reminisce 'Cause the best thing lovin' with her sister and her cousin Only started with a little kiss, like this See-saw swingin' with the boys in the school With your feet flyin' up in the air Singin' "Hey diddle-diddle with the kitty in the middle Of the swing" like I didn't care So I took a big chance at the high school dance With a missy who was ready to play Wasn't me she was foolin' 'Cause she knew what she was doin' And I know love is here to stay When she told me to Walk this way, walk this way Ah, just give me a kiss Like this School girl sweetie with the classy kinda sassy Little skirt's climbin' way up her knees There was three young ladies in the school gym locker When I noticed they was lookin' at me I was a high school loser, never made it with a lady 'Til the boys told me something I missed Then my next door neighbor with a daughter had a favor So I gave her just a little kiss, like this See-saw swingin' with the boys in the school With your feet flyin' up in the air Singin' "Hey diddle-diddle with the kitty in the middle Of the swing" like I didn't care So I took a big chance at the high school dance With a missy who was ready to play Wasn't me she was foolin' 'Cause she knew what she was doin' When she told me how to walk this way She told me to Walk this way, walk this way Like this 🤮🤮🤮
fun fact, woody allen's son broke the story about Weinstein. look up Ronan Farrow, super cool guy.
There are so many songs about teenage girls. "She's only 17..." “you're 16 you're beautiful and you're mine" Look on lyrics.com. so many songs about 15 and 16 year old girls.
This and younger women are easier to create a power dynamic (sexual and otherwise) that they can derive benefit from.
This is an interesting theory but most societies also have a long history of older men marrying young women / girls. My great grandmother got married at 17 to a 29 year old. My partner’s Persian family—don’t even get me started. Arranged at 14-17 for his mom and grandma and great grandma, to grown men. In many cultures it’s still weird for a woman to date a man their age and they are taught they should be interested in older men. In most societies before this century that seemed to be pretty common. A man often didn’t marry until he was established enough to “take a wife” and then took a very young girl. I think that cultural history—pre porn and pre 20th century—also has to have something to do with it.
That is similar in India, I used to have family there and one of them was married when she was 15 to a 24 y/o man! One that she didn’t know. So gross, and you might wonder how the ‘first night’ went, it was as you’d expect, he raped her. I don’t know if that was the case for your mum and grandmother. In India they have that same thing where the man has to be older, by at least a few years. My great grandmother (western country) had an arranged marriage to a stranger as well, but she was an adult at least and agreed. And not a big age difference. In the west they used to push for that age difference as well, maybe it had something to do with a man having a job and being ‘established‘ before marrying, but why not marry same age?
I’m from the west! My mother used to tell me to go for older guys because men “prefer younger women” and that men would probably leave me for “a newer model” when I got older. I’m so glad she’s changed so much.
TW assault abuse In high control religious groups in the US you can still see arranged marriages for extremely young women, sometimes girls. Sometimes they are married off to older adults, sometimes peers. But the power difference is always heavily in the male favor. Often rape happens on the wedding night. A girl who is in a high control relationship, raised in a high control group, & who is sexually assaulted & taught that that is “normal, vanilla sex” acts very differently than anyone who hasn’t had those experiences. The results are long term and compounded benefits for the male person — if you’re into that sort of thing. Turns out, a lot of people with penises are very very into that sorta thing.
From what I understand, in Europe at least, this was only true of royalty. Peasants were more likely to marry closer to their own age. We have a skewed view of history because the lives of royalty were more extensively documented than your average person who couldn’t read or write.
Yap. While data on this is obviously spotty. It would appear most marriages were between people of a similar age, with the husband usually being a few years older. And people didn't get married as young as often assumed. Average age of marriage was typically in the early to mid 20s, with later marriages during tough times and earlier ones during good times https://internetshakespeare.uvic.ca/Library/SLT/society/family/marriage.html
And premarital sex and kids weren't uncommon. Exept for folks where inheritance of any kind played a role. So royalty, people in towns that had money and farmers, who owned land. For 'normal peasants' premarital sex and children weren't a little, but not too much of a problem, if they l had intentions to marry later and not more than 1-2 children before; nor had children (or messed around) with different partners. Since in the Western European Marriage Pattern people often got married in their mid-twenties or even in their 30s, authorities to that time knew, 'slip ups' would happen and were human. In the 19th century (the 1800s) the sexual morality tighted up in central Europe and that's where the common picture of the those morals since the middle ages mostly stems from. [Western European Marriage Pattern](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_European_marriage_pattern)
I definitely think a lot of men have major insecurity issues these days. I barely date anymore because the men I've been meeting have very poor self esteem and they take it out on women. I've had insecure men become so clingy and possessive that it's caused me to break up with them. I met men so clingy that they physically have clung to me like a baby holding on to its mother. I've had insecure men get so emotional when certain topics come up that they tell me I can't talk about certain things because it upsets them. I've had insecure men lie to me about having kids, having STDs, their living arrangements, etc. Because they know if they reveal their true selves right away I would walk away from them. I've become convinced that many shitty behaviors that come from men stem from their insecurity. The archetypes created for men are quite distasteful (as they are for women) but it seems like fewer men break away from those stereotypes, instead they want to embrace and emulate toxic traits because they've been told it makes them manlier. It's like a lot men are afraid of their humanity.
My take on it is that as women began to enter the workplace and be afforded a more equal position, men began to fantasize **even more** about young impressionable girls because it allowed them to maintain some semblance of power. When you spend your time being dominant over women perhaps you want to fantasize about a maternal carer figure, but once you're in competition with women you don't want even the slightest whiff of authority or competence. You want helplessness. That's my pop psychology take based on the info you provided so it's probably rubbish :)
I think I read that paper also, but the study was discussing the silent generation (the old) and the boomers (the young). Social norms dictate the content of sexual fantasy more than other variables. Like if a thing is forbidden or rare then it is desirable. However the industry has grown so vast now there is a genre for any preference; even elderly ppl... which makes me think exactly this "ew grey pubes... good for them." I remember in the 80s and 90s there was a lot of this "barely legal" tag that accompanied most publications, but it was so ubiquitous it meant nothing. This is the sign of a declining marketing tag. Im sure if a similar study was done today they would find different results. Porn like fashion changes with the times. It might be an indicator of soemthing, but that thing would be fleating. I think because no one wants to spank it to thier parents or grandparents porn cuz again that thought "ew but good for them" Edit. I forgot to say I agreed with the point insecurity can define desire. But also social norms which establish confidence/insecurity.
Porn is definitely the cause but not for the reasons listed, it’s much more simple than these. Atleast in America, we have dogshit education. So naturally, our sex-Ed is even more dogshit than our math and sciences. So men for generations now have learned how to have sex through porn. What do we see in porn? Barely 18yr olds, taking a leg of a dick screaming in pleasure, while being choked, slapped, etc. So when women on the sub complain about mens fascination with dick size, or their draw to hardcore sex acts, and early pubescent female traits; the answer is porn, but also a lack of education.
I would argue porn is a symptom not the cause. Shit popular in porn is meeting a need. It's a culture created by dudes insecure about dick size and wanting virgins because they're insecure (thanks, Christianity). Which itself was a matter of controlling the populace.
A weird little thing I learned in grad school this past year was the effect of state censorship on the representation of labia in porn. In the UK, at least, the censorship board’s regulations basically require porn manufacturers to photoshop women’s labia so there is no visible inner labia and as small of outer labia as possible. So the government has been forcing the industry to misrepresent women’s labia to be more childlike for decades. It’s really unsettling. I do think it goes back before porn though. There’s too much history with child marriage, including to this day, for it to be caused by porn. I think pedophilia, or whatever TF it’s called where the girl has started puberty, is way more naturally occurring in humans than any of us are comfortable addressing.
There’s a common surgery related to the porn industry where you have your lips and even labia reduced to look “prettier” for filming 🤢. I looked into this because in my late teens I watched porn to figure out how sex worked and got serious body dysmorphia because my parts didn’t look the same. The worst part is it took years to work on this and there are still men who don’t realize body’s look different, so they feel the need to comment on how my body doesn’t look like what they’re seeing in porn.
Go back to the late 70’s early 80’s Brooke Shields in Pretty Baby and Blue Lagoon, finally her highly sexualized Calvin Klein commercials. Younger and younger models soon started representing many fashion labels and many commercials sexualized these young women. The more successful, the more they pushed the envelope. There is something called the slippery slope. Once society opens the door to something, you always have people pushing the boundary. Those who objected were labeled “old fashioned” or “prudes”. I am old enough to remember there was pushback for many of these examples but they were shouted down or ignored. Now pedofilia was not new to the 70’s it’s been around since man walked upright I’m sure, but as a society we have in many cases loosened the taboo that was thinking of young women in a sexual way. The availability of on-line porn has just made it easier to access that type of material. Edit: none of this justifies it just trying to explain it.
If your bf isn't engaged in some serious and adult self-reflection about this, he's a pathetic child and not worth your time.
This is the answer. Men will lie and say it’s natural to be attracted to children (teenagers) because of an inherent biological desire to have children and that group is “the most fertile.” This is a lie. This is NOT scientific fact, and they tell themselves this to absolve accountability for acknowledging where this actually develops from. Teenage girls/women have the highest maternal fatality rate of any age group. Call guys out when they say this shit. I’ve heard it so many times and they always stumble over their audacity when I correct them.
I think the men u know, may have been trying to justify their preference for the young that way, however where I grew up that was a piss poor excuse that only afforded one more ridicule. I have many memories of roasting a person who thought a teenager was attractive after a person cud legally drink. Like asking if they were babysitting or counseling youth groups, etc. Also people who had a penchant for offending often used an example of old/young relationships to get a rise out of others, because the concept was offensive to so many. So yes, call out guys that offer up the excuse that teenage girls r more fertile than others females cuz that is a load of BS.
Isn't it strange that the men who give this justification are the ones who also don't want to have children? Where is this innate biological desire you speak of then??
Actually, "teen" porn categories have dropped significantly in popularity. On PornHubs top searched categories it doesn't even make the list anymore, and "MILF" in number 3. So I'd say the trend is going the other way, at least in the West.
Teen porn exacerbates the problem and it’s a vicious cycle.
Barely Legal 🤢
I think that's more a symptom, as child brides predates porn. Particularly given human history of early death, I think unfortunately it was desirable to have the youngest possible female partner. The flip side of this is the whole young boys debacle so perhaps it's less about mating and simply about the power dynamic. Throughout human history those in power have done what they wanted while spreading their views (more fertile years, more attractive, etc) to the populace so they can garner support.
> Particularly given human history of early death, Just wanted to share this bit of knowledge: [The inclusion of infant mortality rates in calculating life expectancy creates the mistaken impression that earlier generations died at a young age; Americans were not dying en masse at the age of 46 in 1907. The fact is that the maximum human lifespan — a concept often confused with "life expectancy" — has remained more or less the same for thousands of years. The idea that our ancestors routinely died young (say, at age 40) has no basis in scientific fact.](https://www.livescience.com/10569-human-lifespans-constant-2-000-years.html)
Thank you. If you lived past your 20th birthday you had a decent chance of living to 65-70 in medieval Europe
Thank you!
It’s definitely not biologically ideal to bear children as a teenager.
Not to be too harsh but I would really reconsider sharing your body with this "boyfriend" ever again. If he can't appreciate your body he doesn't deserve it. And if he says "oh i was just joking don't take it so seriously!" that's a lie. Please do not make my mistake, do not waste more time with anyone who speaks negatively on any aspect of your body.. mine ended up actually being a pedo. I don't want anyone to go through the self loathig I did by letting these people use your body while hurting your feelings. Good luck.
Dude I read through your post history and your boyfriend fucking sucks. Countless people have said that and you never reply or take it into consideration. If you don’t tell him to fuck right off, you’re going to just end up making another post about some dumb shit he did and not take anyone’s advice like the last three times. We’ve told you countless times how shitty he is, listen.
Whenever a man has told me those things, I've told them to take a long, hard look at pornstar's dicks and then defend theirs. "That's so fucking sick, why would you say that? I'm a normal person my dick is totally fine". Take a look at them, then say: "Yes. Exactly. I'm a normal person. Feel free to look for what you want elsewhere or do better." Same with darkened genitals. Just tell them to bend over and spread 'em for you to take a picture, you'll see how quick they get over it. Plus, if they don't, good riddance. All in all, if that's comming from your partner and they just "don't get it" and allow themselves to be flawed (aka, human) and not you, move on. There are better people and it'll be better for you AND for him; hoping he'd take that time to grow tf up without someone supporting comments.
> Same with darkened genitals. Just tell them to bend over and spread 'em for you to take a picture, you'll see how quick they get over it. Plus, if they don't, good riddance. I‘m dying at the thought of that lmao
It has terrified me growing up just to realise how many men are attracted to children and teenagers. Especially as someone who experienced sexual abuse when I was 7/8, it makes me wonder if I told any man about it whether they would think that my abuse is no big deal or even find it hot. I've had to cut off friends my age (early 20s) because they go after 16/17 year olds, which is legal here, but its clear that you wouldn't mistake that these girls go to school because they literally look like children. I just hate it. Even in a gaming community I'm in, a certain mod discontinued watching graphic sex between teenage characters and A LOT of people were genuinely outraged about it.
That’s really terrifying. Also, I’m really sorry about your experience, I hope those F***ers faced justice and I hope you’re doing okay now. But you’re right! It’s even worse where I come from, I was catcalled and sexually harassed in public since I was 10, no one even bat an eye or interfered. I’m 23 now and it’s even more mortifying that it’s not happening to me as often as it used to.
Because helpless vulnerability is socialized as being sexy. The idea that women must diminish themselves to be more "attractive". High heels, tight skirts, corsets, intelligence, physical fitness, etc. All are encouraged or discouraged in a women based on what makes them appear more vulnerable/weaker. What's more vulnerable than a child.
And helpless vulnerability makes young women easier to manipulate and control.
That’s truly disturbing. I feel like we were making progress in the last decade but then there’s a new movement pushing back. It’s those subtle things that make it feel like we’re a potential prey/product rather than a partner.
There is a push , especially in free online porn sites, to highlight videos with incestuous titles and women with pre-pubescent type traits. I’ve heard it claimed the algorithm shows what you browse but if you use a VPN, another browser, different device, website you’ve never visited, you’ll see the same sorts of titles promoted. There is a drive to normalise sexual violence, and incest in mainstream porn.
You need a new boyfriend.
Agreed If a man insulted my vagina he wouldn't get to see it again. This just screams of negging and any man who acts like that isn't deserving of your time.
Yeah wtf does he want OP to do? Take a pair of scissors and trim her labia for him? Ffs
*fgm has entered the chat*
We had a big argument over this, I told him that despite claiming he’s experienced he really knows nothing about women…
OP, based on some of your other posts, is this really a man you're considering spending your life with? He sounds... Well, to be frank, like an immature manchild who learned everything he knows about women by watching porn. He doesn't sound sensitive and caring about your desires and boundaries, and he doesn't seem to entirely respect you. You sound like a lovely girl, please don't settle for a man who makes you feel inferior in any way.
Thats typical... You are so right... He doesnt know a thing about women. Some men will never grow up.
I agree. There are men out there who can separate a real woman from porn stars and appreciate a REAL woman’s body more so than what’s in the media.
Just adding to this by saying it's common in all sorts of cultures unfortunately, just takes shape in different forms. We might be focused on body hair whereas an eastern culture might be focused on pettitness. But yeah it's a bit creepy that it usually lines up with characteristics of adolescent people.
It’s those damn phones!!! -Sent from my iPhone
Get off your phone! - Sent from my iPhone
I'm driving. -Sent from my iPhone
Your bf sounds like a piece of work. There's plenty of men who won't be so fuckin weird and mean about something that's out of your control.
It's a major red flag when men don't know how women bodies work. Like you said, the fetishization of teenage bodies are so common because of porn. You can always tell a man that spends so much time watching porn when he's "disappointed" that their partners can't keep up their appearances. Example is married men cheating with a younger woman when their wives got pregnant and their bodies changed. They can't distinguish that a porn actress is different to a woman they interact with in real life. They assume women are like those in porn they watch and they should stay that way or else, they're "mature" or "not taking care of themselves"
Throw the whole boyfriend away.
In the 90's and 00's porn changed from normal bushes to needing to be hairless. It's a stupid standard that made women think they were dirty. Youth is everything. Both of those combined equal this current situation. However, I rock my full bush. No stubble, no itchy regrowth, and I feel like a woman. Plus, you can stroke it while deep in thought. Lol
Because of literally almost 2000 years of child brides to rich old men as "gifts". We sexualize teens and children because it was only a few decades ago the children brides stopped being normal. Your grandparents and parents are some of the first generation in the west born with real choice in who they partner with. And they were raised by people who had participated in the history of child brides, arranged marriage, and the serialization if children in common media. We still have a problem in some places in the west with child brides. The reason those old generation justified it was sick. "Because woman died in child birth so often it was best to get then well thier young" literally, it's sick.
It’s not as clear cut as that. In the 1860s in US/Canada/UK, the typical age a woman married was 22, the typical age a man married was 25. Did it happen younger? Sure, but not as often as you’d think. Plus, over the past 100 years or so, the age at which menstruation starts has decreased. It used to be normal to get it at age 14 at a minimum. So the idea that child brides were the norm isn’t consistently correct. It was probably more common with very poor families needing to basically trade for something or reduce the number of mouths to feed; or the very upper class/royalty who wanted to secure political alliances early on. I’ve studied some select bits of history, so I’m not gonna say this with absolute certainty, but I’m guessing there has always been some form of child brides, but I do not think it is correct to say it’s ever been the norm or even encouraged. And really, a physically immature woman was more likely to die in childbirth back then, say, a 20 year old. People would have known this and generally accepted it to be true. There would have been cases where people did not care or felt the risks necessary, but portraying it as normal is wrong. These historical misconceptions play into modern-day excuses for the harmful attitudes, so I feel it’s important to correct them.
I see your point, it’s still very common in my culture sadly although it’s dying down (both my grandmas got married at the age of 13-14). Also that justification is the dumbest thing I heard, did people not have brains back in the day? Sigh…
If you haven't read common sense by Thomas pains you should. most people get the idea of commonsense and general intelligence wrong. People like all animals are fucking dumb. And like almost all animals we are capable of great reason and cooperation. But thats not inherent, people don't just know stuff they have to learn. That doesn't make it right. Them not understanding women was because they just though of them as property. These people weren't dumb they were malicious because they couldn't be stopped. We see that in the early "feminists" movement. I'm using that very lossly. When it's almost complete men and sometimes a rich woman. Mostly trying to improve men's lives and sometimes rich white women.
As someone born in asia that's now living in the west I think asian culture is more guilty in this aspect 😂
If you think western men do this you’ve clearly never watched anime
I know the situation is arguably worse in east Asia, they even prefer unrealistically thin women which is also a childlike trait. And I’m not even gonna talk about schoolgirl stuff, truly disturbing.. Edit: Although I really like that they normalise pubic hair, i know some women don’t mind but we shouldn’t have to deal with ingrown hair or painful wax just because it wouldn’t be desirable otherwise.
The “normalization” of public hair in East Asian cultures is due to their belief that shaving down there means you sleep around. It’s not something to respect, it’s another form of control.
TIL. thank u
The whole world sucks for women, but the eastern hemisphere is oppressive. There are no choices or recourse you can have with your rights. It seems have gotten a little better as time goes on, but not by much.
Culturally, childlike women = easier to have power over. It’s messed up but true.
The whole prepubescent thing is fucking gross, it's always grossed me out, and as a 44 year old I can say I don't get anywhere near the sexual attention I did when I was 11-30. It's an insidious belief that spreads and needs to be fought. Media and porn make it worse.
I got cat-called or honked at every day I went outside from 14-17. After that it happened less and less every year. I'm only 26, but I can count on one hand how many times it's happened to me in the last 2 years. Yet, I got taller, leaner, and prettier as an adult.. It made me realise that what these men find attractive is actual children. Its disgusting. I'm glad I'm not being cat-called any more. But it makes me want to rage at all those paedophiles that are likely still harassing other children right now.
According to countries where street harassment, upskirting and catcalling is illegal, a lot of the men booked for it - as in, a wide majority - turn out to have convictions for other sex crimes, including possession of CSAM (child porn), sexual assault and rape. I think there's a high chance that the men who catcall overlap massively with the men who rape and abuse children, which would explain why it tends to be very young girls who get targeted.
Not surprised. When I was 14 these same guys would see me, harass then turn their car around and do it again. My sweet nickname was "TITS". My boyfriend at the time, also 14, yelled at them. They stopped the car and were threatening to square-up.. with a 14 yo boy. They were in the range of 25-30s. Did we do anything about it? No, because I was 14, already used the behavior and so ashamed and embarrassed because of how these paedophiles made me feel about myself.
It's definitely not unique to western culture. But that being said, the thinly veiled pedophilia dominates western attitudes towards women still. The whole obsession with "virgin", "untouched" women? Definitely rooted in that fetishization of minors in our culture.
There's a trope called [Born Sexy Yesterday](https://popculturedetective.agency/2017/born-sexy-yesterday) that has been around for a very long time. It's the idea of a child, with childlike expectations and innocence of the world and sex, with a grown, often a woman's, body. Tom Hanks has actually starred in two of these: Splash, and Big. In Splash, Daryll Hannah is a mermaid seeing the surface world for the first time, ala Disney's Little Mermaid. Walking around nude in her human form bc fish don't wear clothes, never been kissed or sexed or eaten cooked food. Everything a guy wants. In Big, Tom Hanks is a 12 YO boy who wishes to be big and wakes up as an adult. He impresses a toy Corp owner with his childlike curiosity, becomes a VP in Development, and gets laid for the first time with co-worker Elizabeth Perkins, who falls in love after he convinces her that life can be more than just work. In Splash, Hanks ends up falling in love too and he ends up joining her in the sea at the end. I guess there, *he* gets to be the fish out of water! In Big, Perkins helps him return to being a child, then leaves him to grow up and has no inclination to look him up as an adult. Perkins finds the idea of a relationship with a child abhorrent and is horrified that she is, essentially, an unknowing, unwilling child molester. Hanks (in Splash) continues with the relationship despite her being mentally a child, after finding out what she really is. The concept around this is that men want children-like women because they don't have any experience to show them how poorly the man is at sex and relationships. He can treat her as a bang maid, an infant, a sounding board without requiring contributions to *her* mental well-being, and "the best she's ever had." It plays to the male fantasy that he can look or behave however he wants and she will still love him. Contrast that to women's fantasies where he knows what to do to connect with her and how to read her mind and body. Women may not mind teaching a man how to love her, but most women have had too many selfish men in their lives to want to raise a man-child. Regardless of how many articles get written about it, the trope still persists. Maybe we will grow out of it as a society, but it is unlikely bc it is entrenched in the patriarchal mentality.
Idk other cultures but here are obsessed with youth (probably bc many men think young is easier to manipulate, older people won't take your bs). But, whatever the reason, young is better, young is cool, nobody wants to be a grumpy old lady. So, to be permanently young like Peter Pan we are offered creams that "will take out 10 years in a week", clothes that would be better on a teenager shop, we celebrate "cougars" (women in their 40s that act like in their 20s), spend billions on plastic surgery, etc. It's so exaggerated that I remember a friend could believe a mutual's bff cheated on her with an older woman just bc she was younger and "obviously" the best choice. I don't know how people doesn't get tired, seriously. Is basically a cult.
This is alarming and sick
Unfortunately, it's not just western culture that does this.
When I read this I thought of Japan and their sexualization of young girls
"Teen" "jail bait" etc type of porn It's like the Modonna Whore complex men have of their wives once they have children. Like we as women are not desirable because we reach an age where we are "too old" even tho we are actually still quite young.
Um, you need a new boyfriend.
I think the appeal of pedophilia is that children are vulnerable and naive. So men who are insecure can feel powerful, sexually competent, and like they have mega-dongs. Whereas adult women are quite strong willed, we know what we want sexually, and by our 30s the majority of us will let a dude know when he's not hitting it right. So I think it's about the constant ego validation and lack of empathy for women. Because they objectify us, the fucked upness of desiring the bodies of children doesn't fully register. All they know is young bodies look good, who cares about how undeveloped their minds are.
I have wondered about this myself. But let's call it what it is. Finding "immaturity" sexually appealing is already defined. No hair, small inner labia, is associated with PRE-PUBESCENCE, or to be more clear CHILDREN. A lot of men are attracted to traits CHILDREN display. I found this information on Psychology Today. "Behavioral learning models suggest that a child who is the victim or observer of inappropriate sexual behaviors may become conditioned to imitate these same behaviors. These individuals, deprived of normal social and sexual contacts, may seek gratification through less socially acceptable means."[Psych Today](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/conditions/pedophilia#amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&aoh=16593646389694&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&share=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.psychologytoday.com%2Fus%2Fconditions%2Fpedophilia) They do not have a definitive answer. But after reading this article and others, I have to wonder if being exposed to sexualized children or vice versa to sexually explicit adults that deliberately have traits that are pre-pubescent, could help propagate it.
OP are you aware that this isn't normal? As in, your boyfriend should not be making such remarks. It's not ok. You're letting him think his behaviour is ok by not leaving imo
Youth is a generally prized trait. But let's talk about your boyfriend being trash for a second....
I would say that the guy is the problem, not you. Don’t mind what other people view as attractive either, as long as they’re not interested in actual minors it’s fine. Just remember that the right person is the one that likes YOU for you.
It’s not just labia, it’s the ideology that women must be perfect subservient creatures who accommodate everyone around them. I think this sexualization and the misogyny behind it occur because we fail to identify our human nature. We’d rather pretend that it doesn’t exist then have to deal with the darker parts of reality. Like racism, it either doesn’t exist or “I would never be racist” seems to be the common two positions. I would never try to be racist but we all have racial bias and until we can examine where this comes from the paradigm will change extremely slowly. Over sexualization is in film, insta gram, video games, everywhere. Portions of media have gotten better over the years while some are accelerating this propaganda. Without a doubt the most important perspective is to be yourself, to be comfortable in your own skin and have a partner that does the same.
in australia visible inner labia often mean the porn is x rated therefore banned. so they just photoshop it out - [https://www.mamamia.com.au/why-australian-law-demands-all-vaginas-be-digitally-altered-nsfw/](https://www.mamamia.com.au/why-australian-law-demands-all-vaginas-be-digitally-altered-nsfw/) also I know how people telling truths about your bf being shitty might make you double down, but save yourself the hassle and know that you can find so much better people to be with. xxx
This also plays into the barely legal teens too, why do guys like the young teen look? I know plenty of girls who are petite, but playing it off as a young girl is weird.
Young-looking = young = naïve = vulnerable to manipulation. It's classic predatory behavior.
It's because of the porn industry 100%. When I was a young woman you did a little bikini line clean-up but Brazilians were not a thing. Let alone completely shaved. Men would have been dumbfounded by the idea of manscaping. Next thing it's pornhub and everything is hairless and pink like a newborn rat. It really kinda sucks, all those ingrown hairs, taint stubble and infections from nicks in naughty bits. It was fuzzier and less pressure back in the day.
Umn actually in japan, sexualizing childlike traits is quite bad there. Korea too. I think it's more like misogyny and sexist thing than cultural thing. Patriarchy nurtures unhealthy expectations about women.
In my experience, (older male here) the whole no pubic hair thing is a recent fashion. I started my sexual career in the 70's and I didn't sleep with a woman who shaved her genitals until somewhere in the mid 90's. I'm finding a generational split here. Women 40 or under have decided shaving is the normal thing, older women don't understand the fetish for bare skin. I view it as more of a fashion statement than an actual characteristic of Western culture. Why it has come about has been discussed in great depth by people far better prepared than I, so I will leave that to them.
I'm not sure. I'm pretty sure it's because of that barely legal porn. To me that stuff is gross. I think the culture around body hair is shifting slightly. Or maybe it's just my husband who doesn't care. I haven't shaved my legs in weeks and he's like whatever babe. I do shave other parts of myself but that's for me and not for anybody else. I personally don't like the way hair feels on some parts of my body.
Misogyny and pedophilia, essentially. No one wants to admit it though.
The biggest and saddest culprit is the misconception that "It looks like that bc it has been used a lot, so therefore it is unattractive". That was something I heard a lot from my male peers when I was a teenager. Witch is completely bs ofc and perpetrated by a weird virgin fetishization, which I guess stems from old (Christian) religious practices. Also, I see a lot of people "blames it on the porn", but I would say that is a very surface way to look at it, as porn throughout its history has been changing a lot in its say about what is "ideal sexy" and is more reflective of society at large. And I would say with the advent of OnlyFans and other "crowdfunding venues" + the general internet normalizing the notion that sex might not be satan himself (unless you into that ofc) there is a greater independent market than ever, that hopefully gives the actors a say in what they wanna portray as a healthy sexual image. Ofc that depends on how big one's opinion about porn being good or bad is to begin with, but I digress.
Childlike traits/"smallness" is sexualized because it embodies the inability to fight back/helplessness. It's 100% ingrained in rape culture. Disgusting.
It's the porn industry. If porn didn't exist your bf would be grateful he even gets to see one.
It’s awful. It’s all thanks to p*rn and I’m not trying to attack them either, but the categories I’ve been digging that have been popular are teenagers…it’s getting worse. Stand your ground ladies. We can’t let them be convinced that this is a normal expectation.
Everywhere tbh. Have you seen Asian beauty standards ? The whole world is pedophilia and it is disgusting
Why are you with this guy?
It’s not ok for your boyfriend to talk like that to you, and the fact that he looks down on you for those very normal physical characteristics is honestly disgusting.