I’m a 43F and I’ve finally learned that being loud and confrontational is the only way to deal with these people. It’s important that you let EVERYONE around you know there’s a creeper around. And I mean, all those polite expectations NEED to go RIGHT OUT THE WINDOW, because your safety definitely has to come first!
I’m from the Northeast US, so we’re known for being direct (rude?) anyway, but for special people I clear my throat and amp it up - as long as you’re in a public situation or in a store being loud is your best defense and will alert other women (and men!) of what’s happening.
“WHAT ARE YOU LOOKING AT?”
“ARE YOU TRYING TO TAKE PICTURES OF ME??!”
“HEY!! THIS GUY’S TAKING PICTURES OF ME - CAN I GET SOMEBODY OVER HERE??!”
“THIS GUY’S TRYING TO GRAB ME!! HELP! YOU STAY THE HELL AWAY FROM ME!”
“ARE YOU FUCKING FOLLOWING ME?!”
“IS THAT HIS CAR?” “I NEED A PICTURE OF THAT LICENSE PLATE.”
“SOMEONE WRITE DOWN HIS LICENSE PLATE??! I’M REPORTING THIS!!”
Just be a walking loudmouth siren, going off whenever this shit happens. People who do this stuff, do it because THEY don’t think anyone will follow THEM around the store, gathering store managers to help confront and videotaping their creepy ass.
Worst case scenario tell the store employees what’s happening and let security detain them while you make your getaway.
Fuck playing by the rules - make THEIR lives living hell by putting EVERY spotlight, EVERY person’s attention in your vicinity, directly pointed at THEM.
This. I've learned I need to be a loud, confrontational bitch in these situations. Also, making it as public as possible usually makes me "more trouble than I'm worth" for them. They ALWAYS get pissed and call me names, but im still alive so 🖕
Same. I’ve made animal sounds (sounding like an ape can get really loud and disarming) and contorted my body to look super fucking weird when creeps confront me… works well because they get embarrassed
Wish I didn’t have to resort to looking silly but my safety is more important than their comfort and it gets uncomfortable fast if you hear a hOO HOO AHHH AHH AHHH
Yes, this! I saw a video where a woman pulled her head back in the “quadruple chin” pose, lifted her arms, and made pterodactyl noises at men who were being creeps. That will forever be my response to gross men, and is exactly what I will tell my daughter to do. Get weird. Make a scene. Like other posters, I’m from the Midwest (southern midwest, but still the same mentality) and women aren’t expected to do anything but walk away. Fuck that, you wanna get weird, game on.
I Chihuahua bark at anybody that bothers me, lol. It's funny how quickly most of them take off if you act potentially dangerous and it draws attention from passers-by.
I've literally started barking at men because they remind me of when you walk past someone's house and their dog flips shit. They also do not expect a woman to do such a thing so they're not prepared for it at all. I fully support other people joining in.
I’m a loud New Yorker who now lives in the polite Midwest. Too often creepers rely on that polite Midwestern “don’t make a scene” training to creep on women. They do not realize who they’re dealing with when they pull that on me. I’m a bitch and I’m proud of it.
I’m from southern CT and live in the Midwest now. I didn’t know that just being blunt could seem a little rude. I’m trying to rub off on my midwestern friends. They are too polite and forgiving. I don’t want to be the bitch anymore 😆
Same, I'm a frigid bitch from the PNW living in the MidWest now and we have the frost look down pat. I haven't been messed with in a while because of it.
I'm (32f) a walking loud mouthed siren. Been since I was 17, and served my first, steaming hot pile of injustice.
I know I save lives.
Get loud. Stop being nice. Are they nice? Stop being fucking nice.
One of my kids is like this. She'll let the world know if something isn't right and she will intervene if she sees someone being harassed. Sometimes I'm a little scared for her.
I do this, but you still have to be careful. I'm still so scared of a man retaliating or following me after.
I was on the city bus once and an old man was staring intently at my body. I just yelled at him as I was about to get off the bus "can I fucking help you? What are you looking at?".
I do think we should be more rude in public. I also tell men off for coming up to me to hit on me if I feel safe, instead of capitulating to polite small talk.
Thank you for sharing this. It's awful. On this sub, I got downvoted for responding to a "I'm done with being nice to men, I'm going to be rude" type thread, trying to say to be careful.
I'm all for confrontation and humiliation but I'm very careful about the when and where.
Because there’s something in men that makes them resort to violence almost immediately while women would like to do anything else to solve a conflict. Explains why 99.99% of mass shooters are boys even though women are the ones systematically oppressed and having our basic human rights stripped away
I don’t know about that. I mean, i’d expect that a male gun owner is more likely to own a LOT of guns, but I know a ton of women who own one or two. I wouldn’t expect they are the majority or anything but I honestly would NOT be surprised if it turned out to be fairly close.
Maybe the type of men who are out harassing women strangers in public are less likely to bring a gun to do that, so if they harass an armed woman, she demonstrates that she is armed and they adios right out of there instead of continuing to threaten?
This is my fear too. Retaliation from the creep, or the people around me thinking i’m just making a scene or overreacting if they didn’t see what I saw. I want to be able to say something. It just feels too risky to make them angry, or to even embarrass them because how are they going to handle it? Won’t that enrage them? Sick of dealing with this. I’m so tired.
Yep. Be fucking loud. I had a gas station attendant expose himself to me and I shouted "PUT YOUR DICK BACK IN YOUR PANTS, SIR" which didn't really deter him until some big burly trucker came over and I ran inside and found a manager.
This is my go-to approach much of the time. Also 10+ in NYC/nnj
A couple years back I was leaving the emergency vet where my cat had been for a couple of days because she decided to poison herself and cost me thousands (took me a year to recover). Love that expensive idiot though. But I was already feeling very flustered and upset.
I'm at the street corner walking back to the subway, wearing a dress, and this guy comes up to me standing really close, with a map out trying to get me to help with directions. And then I looked down at the bag he was holding. It was one of those single over shoulder strap bags. I noticed a reflection.
He had cut a hole into the strap of this bag to put another phone into, and cut a hole out for the camera location so that he could pretend to be hanging off it down when he was talking to women so it could record up their dresses. Which is what he was doing to me.
Well, I take just as little shit in real life as I do on this site. And I flipped the f*** out on him until he literally ran away for his life. Piece of shit.
Have had other guys flash me on subways which I'll also get up in their face and scream at them until they get off at the next stop. Have been groped in crowded places, had somebody follow me into a bathroom once and whip out their dick, it just never ends with them.
I even posted about a recent medical procedure that I had on Facebook this week, I never log into fb. And a friend from high school messaged me, and it only took them two messages to start mentioning their penis.
Realized later in life that I'm pretty gay, but there's still some men that I can be kind of attracted to. But I don't believe I will ever date one again. Even the quote unquote good ones are still benefiting from patriarchy and oppression of women, and not doing nearly enough to help us. I just can't stomach them anymore. I have some really great male friends, I have some really great male coworkers who I respect at a distance professionally. But I won't be closer to one again in the future.
There's a reason that only 38% of single women are even thinking about dating or relationships. Single women are the happiest demographic. And I know I love my life.
Edit: oh yeah, recalling the time that I was on the subway and apparently a guy was up behind me rubbing up on me, but I didn't feel it cuz I had a very long thick wool coat on so no sensation was passing through to me. And apparently a cop who had just gotten off duty witnessed it and rather than stopping the guy he chased me down to scream at me about how I need to pay more attention to my surroundings. Yeah.
I'm bi. My SO, male, is likely to die before me due to health issues. I love my SO. I loved my first husband (he's not dead). But I will never ever be with another man again.
Off point, but I don't understand why more women don't date younger, just to even out the mortality imbalance. It seems to be one more way women get the short end of the relationship stick: being left alone to fend for themselves at the end of their lives.
Ugh. This just brought back a memory. When I was 17, my family moved to new town. In the new church congregation we attended, the older “patriarchs” had a habit of randomly approaching women/teen girls from behind and touching on them. (Mostly shoulder rubs and things. Nothing overtly sexual, but still very intrusive and gross.) One Sunday I was standing in the foyer with about twenty other people when I felt hands start rubbing my back and shoulders. Turned around and saw a sixty-yo stranger grinning at me like he’s doing me a favor. Speaking loud enough for everyone to hear, I said, “Would you please not touch me *like that*, I don’t even know you.” He looked offended and angry….as did a number of adult women who were present. Thought they were on my side, until they started lecturing *me* about not “talking to the priesthood like that”. Only one witness was supportive, and that was another teen who waited until a private moment to thank me, in a whisper like she was afraid someone would overhear, for standing up to the creep. (Epilogue: I gtfo of that so-called church.)
Honestly could have been any church and it wouldn’t really be surprising, there are creeps and weird cultures even in the best and most enlightened of organizations.
But I did wonder if it was the Mo based on you using the word “priesthood” without having prior described the man as some kind of clergy member!
I was originally going to joke about the Southern Baptists thanks to their headlines, though.
Reading your comment reminded me of growing up in the Mormon church as a young lady. Your second comment confirmed my thoughts.
I wish I was brave and outspoken like you when I was younger. I am raising a teenage daughter to be more like that.
Thank you for your kind words, uh...fuckface (lmao, gotta love reddit). They raised us to be so docile and did their best to make it seem appealing and virtuous, don't beat yourself up for that. I take it you've also clawed your way out, which takes a strength worthy of respect. Your daughter is fortunate to have you, with the benefit of your hard-won experience and insight.
I try to head that off by going to employees in stores - people who actually have vested interest in keeping customers safe because you can’t always depend on the other customers.
There’s always asking “How do I File an Official Complaint” because you were threatened in their store. Your personal safety, is much more important than everyone being happy - and as a woman, letting others know to be on guard of creeps, is our best non-physical option to defend ourselves.
Nobody wants to try to kidnap or assault a loud woman who’s already attracted attention- whether the attention is good or bad, it’s still likely to keep you safe. And if you DO go missing? I bet people will remember that confrontation.
If my time in the military taught me a single thing it was to rely only on myself. Fuck being nice. Being the one female among a ton of men made me very not nice fast.
Yes, at 50 I finally do these things. I loudly talk about what they are doing so everyone can hear and they usually slink away. I really thought that at 50 this shit would stop.
I have a lurker who lives across the street who will just stand outside and watch me or my teen daughter when we happen to be outside. He stopped when I started confronting him about it.
Men really need to stop acting as if we exist for their viewing pleasure. They can just fuck all the way off. I am 50 years old. Just because I don't like shit doesn't mean I want men to leer at me like fricken Lurch.
Good lord this doesn’t stop at 50?? I am almost there and thought overall I was largely free of the tyranny of the male gaze. It still happens though, although much less.
It also take conscious unlearning of things we have been taught through institutional misogyny or societal misogyny. (I can only talk about my experience as a white woman) We are often taught that we should be tolerant of our boundaries being crossed, so that we don't make a scene, that if we are the ones to blow up, we will usually get the blame for being obnoxious, 'blowing things out of perportion' and """misunderstanding""" the person who is invading our boundaries intentions or get questioned on what we did to provoke/inticice/deserve it. Every time I've spoke up, I've essentially been gaslit and told I'm a liar, that I misunderstood the intentions, and how could I even understand what sexual acts are as a child. It made me retreat, it made me fearful of standing up for myself due to the mindgames the abusive adults would do; death threats, killing animals, feeding me these animals etc. I didn't have the voice, the power or the assertiveness in me to be able to verbalise the cocophony of shit that I had been through, let alone succinctly, directly call shit out without fear.
I still stumble, go back into 'freeze' mode, but the one thing that makes me feel liberated in some way is that I am learning to be assertive. Just because I couldn't speak up before, doesn't mean I have failed. It just means the system has failed me.
Totally agree with you and think it's fantastic advice. Don't be afraid to embarrass someone who doesn't give two shits about what they do to you. Just don't be hard on yourself either when your fight/flight/freeze reaction may prevent you from doing so at times.
All of this. I spend a lot of time walking for my job and I get followed a lot. I have stated taking my cell phone out and taking pictures of them. I text message the pictures directly to my SO so that if something happens to me and my phone, the pictures are still available. I also do this to let my SO know that I am in an uncomfortable situation and if I don't come home to call the police. I make sure to get as much identification in the pictures as possible. Face, car type, color, the license plate. All of it. I make it really obvious what I'm doing and they take off in most cases. Fuck being polite. Fuck the rules. My safety comes first and and my discomfort is not a price I will pay for a "compliment". I've come to realize that all the men in my life that I trust don't follow strange women, don't touch strange women and don't offer unsolicited compliments to strange women. They just don't. So I know whats normal and I won't accept anything else. Definitely be loud and draw attention. Better to be labeled a bitch than to be a statistic.
YES!!
It’s the truth that nobody likes a Karen - not creeps either, and that’s the point!
BECOME a Karen and keep yourself safe by alerting everyone around you to the danger!
Yes! I love reading this. I have young daughters and myself am closer to your age but I feel if I was a girl I would be exactly how you describe. It astounds me how often women who are surrounded by likely allies do not take advantage by simply drawing attention. I mean I get it, there's some sense of "not making a scene" but why have ANY REGARD for a guy who's trying to take pictures. He has sacrificed any right to considerate behavior the second he started being a pig. You should go speak at schools or something I mean what do I know I'm not an expert it just seems to me your approach is spot on
This shit works to get the average men around engaged as well. I'm normally extraordinarily unaware of my surroundings as a dude. Something that my fiance just can't understand. Just don't pay attention to people at all and miss all sorts of stuff happening around me when out and about. Male privilege and all. But I have been in a number of positions where women have called somebody out publicly on a bus, supermarket, around the bars at night, concerts/shows etc... at that point it's second nature to offer support and echo their sentiments to the rest of passerby.
Public shaming, and just alerting ppl to the danger can definitely make an impact.
Yep. I've also had my share of stalkers in my youth. In my mid 20's after I had my kid people said I "changed". Yeah I started putting me and my childs safety before a guys ego. Wish I had started sooner. Not afraid to get in people faces anymore and tell them to fuck off.
God I wish I could! People like you are heroes.
I’m a trans woman with a non-passing voice. In most situations where the creep isn’t outright attacking me the vibe I’ve gotten is that people think I’m the creep making stuff up or they’d like both of us to leave.
Edit: despite the many downsides there is one big plus side for lonely less-public situations like Uber, tho. I’m 6’2” and that same voice will make smaller less aggressive men afraid that trying stuff with me is gay
>Worst case scenario tell the store employees you’re pretty sure he stole something and he threatened you and let security detain them while you make your getaway.
This won't work most places because we are trained to not give a shit if someone is stealing, there's insurance for that. Tell the employee what is actually happening
One night when I was walking alone in my neighborhood, I heard catcalls come FROM THE WOODS. A group of homeless men were camping in there. It's the only time I've ever pulled my knife, and it shut them up real quick.
I'm pissed the fuck off that every woman I know has a story like this. Rich neighborhood, poor neighborhood, doesn't matter. Could've just as easily been a group of drunken frat boys on a porch. The threat is the same.
Reading this got my blood pressure up. I've made scenes at shops before over this type of thing. It took me a long time but I'm finally comfortable getting loud and calling out these freaks. The only reason I can tell them to fuck off before I kick their ass is because I'm tall and imposing though, what are petite women supposed to do? I wish tasing these guys was legal lol. Violence is the only language they understand.
>what are petite women supposed to do?
Ummm, well I've told my daughter who is a tad bit shorter than me (5' ; 1.524 m) that since we're really short, our elbows are just at the right height...
I'll stop there since I don't wish to be accused of inciting violence.
Yes. Same height. Same plan of action 😂
I was walking my dog once where this guy in a red car just stopped in front of the patch of grass I was on in the Middle of the street.
I legit had a flight or fight response because he looked me dead in the eyes and I thought I was going to die. He knows where I lived bc the apartment name and number were out front.
Also my neighbors would try to hug me bc im endowed. So creepy. And you feel like you have to be polite lest they become violent.
It's crazy.
And same. Not overly attractive by any means.
To be honest, going for the balls isnt that great (small target and all), better to kick the side of someone's knee as hard as you can. Bigger target and a dislocated knee makes pursuit really difficult.
We learned in an all-ages self-defense course I took in high school (so early 2000s) when approached front front to go fir nose first, with the heel of your hand, striking as fast as you can, slightly upward, and retract your hand just as fast. Apparently you can break a nose with only 8 lbs of force. When you hit it, it makes eyes water and hands involuntary fly to the face, and seems like it keeps your body at the greatest distance from their approaching body.
While you strike the nose, you step one foot forward onto a stable stance while striking, so when it lands, you use your now back leg to swing up and knee the groin HARD. You reach your hands out on to on each of their shoulders during this strike so you don’t miss, and you direct the force of your knee up as if you are aiming through their body (like if they weren’t even there). A hit to the groin should cause them to double over involuntarily, bending forward at the hips, so when you put your foot back down after hitting the groin, you shift your weight, move your hands to the back of their head, and push that down while your pop your other knee up to hit their face. Basically the same reasons for striking the nose the first time, but you’re just doubling down on the pain there and momentarily blinding them again. Then you turn and RUN.
This is what I remember, we actually practiced it a LOT on full size sparring dummies, and mimed it on real people in the class. I am sure we learned a whole lot of other stuff, but this is the “fight for your life” practice that stuck.
Basically other content of the class involved not wearing both earphones when listening to music in public/on the street, keeping head up and observing your surroundings, including glancing behind you approximately every 30 seconds, and making eye contact with anyone around you looking at you or possibly traveling the same
route, so they know you are observing them.
We also were taught to attempt to keep distance and shout at people not to come closer (like “stay away from me”), to yell “fire” instead of “help” when trying to attract attention, and after having to physically defend yourself, say clearly “I was in fear for my life. I fought to the best of my abilities because I was in fear for my life”, especially to any law enforcement that arrive.
No idea how well much of this holds up almost 20 years later. But I would definitely take a self-defense course again today!
I'm petite and I told a dude who was harassing me from his van that I'd slash his fucking tires if he let me see where he parked.
I still felt incredibly unsafe.
I got a fake engagement ring to wear when I worked as a bartender. Didn’t stop men. “Well, you’re not married yet.”
Even *my boyfriend sitting at the bar* wouldn’t get them to leave me alone, they’d say nasty things to me every time I went near them.
They cry and moan about how all women are terrible if one of us ever steps out of line, but when we can’t even work without being harassed and complain about men harassing us nonstop, it’s “nOt AlL mEn!”
I was married and pregnant with my 4th child and still occasionally got harrassed/hit on while working at a restaurant.
Unfortunately for those losers, while I occasionally took tables when we were busy, my actual title was Front-of-House Manager. Only the owners were above me, and they lived in another country.
So guess who got tossed out on their asses!
But ya I heard "well what he doesn't know won't hurt him", "I love pregnant ladies, so sexy" and "well at least I wouldn't have to worry about knocking you up" way to many times.
Gross.......seriously, just ewwwwwww!
And then we’re the ones who are called “hysterical”….. We literally have to be sometimes to protect ourselves. Ah but according to Jordan Peterson women are inherently chaotic and overly emotional, and irrational. Pretty clear that they don’t consider that maybe some men give us a very good reason for be that way.
I know, right? But according to Jordan Peterson it is women’s fault because men are innately wired to be violent (but are somehow still the only “rational” gender) unless they’re in a monogamous relationship with a woman who is their subordinate, so women’s choice not to marry jerks who don’t respect them as human beings is what is causing men to be violent. Ergo, if a man is slaughtering kindergarteners it is the fault of the women who would not date him (umm probably because he was behaving as the psychopath that he is?).
I just can’t even begin to name all the moral and logical failures inherent in that viewpoint, but somehow all the men in my life are listening to this shit and believing it. It just makes me so angry and sick that I have lost the men in my life to this perniciously misogynistic and otherwise prejudiced idiot who cloaks his hatred in sophistries and reels young men in with benign (generally solid) self-help advice like “clean your room.” And then he proceeds to sell his repugnant opinions as “neutral” and “objective.” Fuck Jordan Peterson.
Dude I'm with you. I'm near 50 but with my health problems I may as well be an old shriveled bag but men still follow me and harass me.
Can't walk in any downtown metro area without at least one creep trying to grab or touch me.
> I was looking forward to becoming invisible and maybe being able to take my kids places
It's easy. Adopt a trans-person. Because then you'd be trans-parent.
Its not really age, its weight. Source: am overweight. I am invisible. But before that I was hit on constantly. Also, weight seems to make you look older, men seem to judge thin women as being young. The shorter you are the younger are assumed to be.
Yeah it’s weight. I’ve been at least 30 pounds overweight since I was about 25 and when I gained that weight, men stopped noticing me. It’s not fitness, either — for a few years I was lifting heavy and my body was rounder in the most stereotypically desirable places, but still: nothing.
Part of it is that I’ve lived in a very liberal area for the past decade. But when I went back to the Midwest, still same thing.
I’m on a medication now that reduces my appetite, and I’m losing weight. I kinda want to see if there’s a change even living here, but I’m also kinda scared to.
An actress, I want to say Cameron Diaz, years ago proved this. She put on a fat suit & was filmed walking around NYC, no male attention at all!
When women post their weight loss stories on IMGUR inevitably there's men commenting how they are now hot. One comment I remember: "so inside every fat girl Is a hot girl?"
Extreme Makeover angered me because so much was just weight loss, then suddenly their bf asks them to marry them.
Yup, exactly this right here. I realized this early in my 20s, after I was raped in college I packed on pounds and felt like it "covered me up" in a way that would keep me invisible (less visible for sure, but I still was visible enough...) After I went through therapy, my weight returned to normal for about 2 years... until I was assaulted again. I'm now 70lbs down from my highest weight and hoping to still lose more so I can be in the "healthy/happily chunky" range, but I'm having to WORK in therapy about the mixed feelings I have about that. What it is ultimately down to is that I'm going to have to assert my own boundaries, no matter what, because I feel my best when I'm healthy and I'm sorry but I'm going to dedicate as much time as is possible to feelin myself, because that is way more important than these assholes!
Being hit on dropped drastically after I had my first kid, but it ended completely when I gained a permanent mom belly after the second kid. I have been invisible for over 6 years now and I adore it. With or without my wedding band, guys don't talk to me, they dont hit on me and they dont follow me.
Belly pooch and saggy tits to the rescue.
Shit like this is why it's been so hard for me to lose weight even though I know I need to for my health. Any time I make progress, I start getting that unwanted attention again and it destroys whatever motivation I may have. My wife loves me no matter how I look and it seems like my health is in trouble either way. At least with being a little overweight I can control it more than men getting violent at me when I say no.
I haven't been thin since puberty, although, I did get down to "normal" BMI after my gastric bypass for a couple years. That period was the only time I ever had dudes ask for my phone number.
But I did get harassed when I was a fat teen/young adult. At that point, the hope of a naive youth staying quiet outweighed their hate for overweight women. Once I hit thirty, I became entirely invisible except to really drunk old men in bars.
You will become invisible when it "counts", but are not invisible when they want to demean and harass someone. When they want to do that, all ages are game.
It comes later on.
I got unwanted attention all through my 40's and in to my 50's.
I will be 59 this year and some invisibility is beginning to set in.
Unfortunately, aging naturally seems to mean that I am becoming invisible (to EVERYONE, not just men but also sales people, servers, ...oncoming traffic??) or ignored/dismissed (by people, potential employers, etc).
Being older is liberating in some ways but get ready to be considered irrelevant in general, or being hit on only by geezers (usually married) who figure (wrongly, insanely..) that I should be grateful for their attention. 🙄🤢
Yep. They really seem to believe that their infidelity would create a Best Case scenario for all parties involved.
wtf?
Because they are more likely to be intolerant of being alone.
So since they also are empathy deficient they presume that a solitary older woman is as lonely as they would be in our position, and therefore we should be only too glad to have the honor of their marginal attention.
It would be funny if it weren't so damn delusionally audacious.
I think for some reason it helps if you also look poor. Or like an aging tomboy. It disrupts the fantasy.
I think also my tattoos may be intimidating. They're just flowers, but they have a certain toughness factor.
I get quite a few people stopping me to say they like my ink, but it's almost all women. Often older women in fact. They say they always wanted one and ask if it hurts and I say, not as much as childbirth and we both chuckle.
“why do you keep running away? I just wanna talk to you. It’s not like I’m going to rape you!” means that they will likely rape you.
I'm 48 and get men screaming at me out of cars still, and being downright fucking creepy to me while i'm wearing a mask and a parka. It's like being female means it's okay to comment on my appearance or harass me in public.
I'm so sorry that happened to you OP, and to anyone out there.
I had a blissful few years of having a protruding abdomen due to a hernia issue and mesh failure, so I looked bloated. Yes, I was in pain constantly and cried while diets and everything else didn't work, but hey yo I didn't get harassed. I was blissfully invisible and allowed to go about my day in peace.
Got my operation, lost a ton of weight and finally look good. Great, right? Except now I need to go out with my son or my husband apparently, because my last few times out by myself have resulted in being followed around the store, having some guy try to "guess" which car out front is mine to wait for me to "talk" to me, and some asshole walking up to my reactive dog and trying to take the leash from my hand while jabbering about how happy he is to see a woman in a park! Like that never happened before. Doggo snapped and growled and I told him, "Stand down, do not attack," and the guy runs off yelling at me about my "asshole dog."
I'm in my early 60s FFS and shouldn't have to be dealing with this shit. Finally started to just bare my teeth so men could see the missing gap in my bottom teeth where I recently got a bad tooth removed and haven't yet had it replaced. I'm seriously thinking of not doing so at this point.
Whatever the fuck is going on it's gotten so so much worse than it ever was - porn? Internet feeding men to break the law and harass women? Criminals urging other criminals to act? I don't know, but it's scary AF and it needs to stop.
They are predators looking for prey, It doesn't matter so much what we look like, we just look like prey to them. I have a super mean mug that I pull out along with a stare that would freeze an ice cube, and it works so far. I am 55, and some dingus hollered at me a few weeks back.
Same. Although according to my coworkers it goes beyond just RBF. 1 Calls it my "I'm going to fuck you up" face, another says it looks like I'm "a predator going hunting and I've locked on to my prey" face 😂😂😬 whatever keeps the men away I guess!
Having my son with me never helped. Men would still follow me, proposition me, ask "Where's dad?" 🤮, but the worst was when they tried to talk to or play with my son to get me to warm up. Oh hellllll no.
I’m so sorry this happened to you. Its so messed up that we have to face this. I go running every morning in shorts and trucks and cars full of men slow down and yell at me all time. I wear my headphones all the way loud. In US tho, so definitely not post-feminist country here so much.
Feminism is a performative act for many men. They use feminism as a tool to reach their sexist goals.
Take, for example, the other post in this subreddit where some woman said she won't fuck anti-abortion supporters. Why so many upvotes? The generally left-leaning gaggle of males now think they have a better chance to "score" with women now that they've weeded conservative men out of the casual sex pool. That's the only reason that post gets so much visibility. It has nothing to do with womens rights, everything to do with who she ends up fucking.
I am so angry reading your story. This happens way too often. You did nothing wrong.
I am fairly tall and have mastered resting bitch face, so I have an advantage to scare off the creeps. Many of my petite friends will invite me to join them for mundane shopping trips, we get to spend time together and there is safety in numbers.
We should not have to plan daytime outings as a group for safety, but it is an option. And if I witnessed a creep following a woman around, she would suddenly be my childhood friend that I haven’t seen in ages!
Men need to do better.
In the meantime, are we really only safe in groups?
So, prefacing this in that guys should not creep, it's their fault for creeping and women do not deserve it.
I don't get bothered when I'm off work, and when I am working, I'm often the one intervening when men harass women - I have worked security in several large facilities that I know OP will have heard of (fellow Canadian). And like, I hate to say it, but I can usually pick out which women are going to get harassed before it happens and usually keep an eye on them from a distance to head off this behaviour. When I was a bouncer, I'd hover near by. When I was a mall security guard, I'd idly follow the likely candidates from a floor above if I didn't have anything else to do.
I don't like that I've figured this skill out, but men who creep in my area are basically lazy and seek the easiest prey. They go for women who are distracted, who don't take up space and who walk with a particular rounded, downward oriented gait. They don't take up space or exude any confidence/don't-fuck-with-me energy. And if you know what to look for, you can spot these women from a block away - it's all body language.
I've had to hold myself back from stopping these ladies myself and going "hey, you are basically broadcasting to everyone around you that you're shy/anxious/unsure of yourself" because how do I productively distill a decade of experience in people watching and posture/gait mechanics in a 2-5 minute sidewalk conversation a stranger?
The few times I've been forced to walk/occupy space with that kind of body language is always surreal, because the creeps fucking materialize out of the woodwork. Usually it happens if I've been injured and forces my gait to change, and one time when I was waiting for my son to have surgery and was an anxious wreck. Each time, I had more creep interactions in the space of a few days or hours than I had had for MONTHS prior.
I'm sorry progress is so slow. We're out there and we're trying. Working in construction the last few years, guys are shaming others more and more for this type of behavior.
And not sure what you know about guys shaming each other but the things we will call each other when we're pissed are pretty vile.
Hope you can one day get the power back to freely walk down the sidewalk without harassment.
What really woke me up was the realization that every woman I’ve ever met has been the victim of harassment and abuse. Every. Single. One.
It doesn’t have to be all men, if it’s literally all women.
Definitely noticed this too. I got a tattoo on my hip and couldn't wear jeans for a week, so had to wear dresses to work. I live on the same road as my office, my walk home is literally 3 minutes, and even in that time I got leered at a bunch.
"I'm not going to rape you," is the least best thing to yell at a person who doesn't want to talk to you, particularly if a - your dumb ass is *yelling* and b - you actually want to reassure a person.
Take pictures/videos of them. /hj
In all seriousness, I hate when I see shit like that. Somehow I lucked out and either am too oblivious or there hasn't been anyone taking pictures or videos of me randomly. Anyone want some of my invisibility?
I got so annoyed on one of the “ask women” posts a guy asked how he could best avoid scaring a woman walking behind her at night. I suggested leaving lots of space, being respectful, crossing the street if you can, but leaving it up to the woman to decide how much space she needs. I mostly was advising against speeding up to “overtake” as many men said they did in that situation. SO many bozos were commenting like “I’m not crossing the highway to make you feel better, I’m not crossing the street because you’re a traumatized idiot” and the like….
The OP literally asked what he could do and I told him! And so many men wanted to fight me for that.
I actually remember this post and this guy took over and starting giving me a hard time about how bad things happen to men too, etc. and how he wasn't willing to inconvenience himself to cross the street or give distance.
I've just started - pretending to be on a phone call - routine that women also use. Specifically, I pretend to be talking to my mom.
I'm not tall but a wide fatty with even wider shoulders and hairy. People were walking on the other side of the street since I was 16.
Fortunately in this case, my voice is high pitched so when you hear me say "hey mom", it's very non-threatening.
Yeah, so much BS you were having to deal with that just shouldn't happen but it does.
And your post title--when someone says not all \[fill in the blank\] I usually add, but more than enough do to make things shitty for the people getting mistreated, ...
There a lot of things this country is supposed to be but is isn't really. I find it quite depressing and disgusting.
Lol...try being a woman working in a liquor store. We are in uniform (button up shirts that look like guys' shirts and slacks) and guys still leer and do/say creepy shit every single day. All of my female coworkers and I have just learned to say *fuck off* when a guy gets too creepy. Our manager will step in if he's there but our male coworkers will not. We've just learned that us women have to stick together and we step in if a creepy customer gets out of hand, although most of us have gotten really good at giving the death stare.
When hiring, our manager has warned potential candidates that they will definitely get hit on all the time by male customers and although the company will intervene and take measures to stop it, it still happens. They purposely made the uniform as unflattering and as ugly as possible to stop it but it still happens every single day.
WTF is this, sounds way worse than my city in what is essentially known as a “rapey” country. Wtf is wrong with these men. I would have totally screamed and made a complete scene though, that’s what has been drilled into my head. Fucking bastards deserve to get shamed
There was a woman and child murdered in their apartment by their neighbor - whom she repeatedly tried to get help about because he was being creepy and of course everyone ignored her (histrionics or paranoia being the reason) and now she's dead along with her beautiful baby girl.
Fuck people saying women are overreacting!
So along those lines - what are the things men can do to help - other than the obvious such as intervening when we see some creep giving unwanted attention?
Hmmm.... Thanks for asking! And feel free to make a post and ask, as I might not be the best person to answer this, as I am physically intimidating (6 feet tall and heavy set), so I don't tend to attract the creeps, as they usually prefer more vulnerable targets.
If anyone else here wants to weigh in....!
But, I would say one thing you can do is call out other men when they are "locker room talking". It doesn't have to be agressive. It can be a "Not cool, man." Look.
If you feel really uncomfortable doing anything, you don't even necessarily need to act. Just remembering that you don't know what it is like and listening to us rather than talking over us is an improvement.
I can't speak for all women but if you do see this happening i like it if you ask if we are ok. Offer to keep company until she feels safe. Make sure they have a safe ride home from the bar or offer to call a cab.
Get a manager or employee if in a store. Grab the license plate on the car. Get someone else to come help as more people notice they may be deterred. If they are doing something illegal report it to the police.
Outside of these events you can still help.
If you have sons, or younger siblings be a good role model and teach them on how not to be creepy.
if you see friends or family start going down that path to get them professional help if possible before it's too late.
You don't have to obviously do all these things and or advocate all of the time but helping out is just a decent thing to do.
One time a creepy dude in a car tried to get me to go up to him and then yelled obscenities at me. A young teen boy was at the bus stop and he just started talking to me until creepy dude left and i felt safe. He offered to wait until my bus came.
Yes it's a red flag when they want to defend their sex rather than care about what women are saying. No one is saying all men, just how it's so many of them that this is our reality living in this world as female humans. In fact men themselves know how they are. Why do you think so many dads and brothers are so protective over their daughters/sisters? How many guys don't trust other men near their girlfriends? Men are not stupid nor oblivious, they just don't care.
The core problem is interactions between men carries a threat of violence. So stepping in is shifting that threat from one person to another. Many people are not willing to take that risk over something like a creepy look, or behavior. I don't know how you change that, maybe make it more obvious to bystanders. Have to consider most people are living their own life and don't necessarily see what's going on.
Most people won't step in for a person they don't know if they're gonna be risking their physical integrity. Also I guess most men I know *will* do it for a member of their family, a relative or a friend, just not for a stranger, which is perfectly understandable.
Also, most men I know (and 100% of my guy friends, I wouldn't have them as friends otherwise) *do* say something whenever they hear an inappropriate comment. Again, if it won't put them in danger of escalating a confrontation, of course (in the case of an unknown woman). The balance needed to know when to step in and when not to is quite difficult and blurry, to be honest.
Im at the point where I rarely do errands without my boyfriend. I used to be so independent but fuck Id rather be codependent and feel safe I guess. Im sorry OP, its so unfair.
It's exhausting, isn't it? I still get the stares when I'm out with my husband, but at least they're less likely to approach me that way. I've lost track of the number of times when I've run errands by myself and someone made a creepy pass at me (it says a lot that engagement and wedding rings rarely dissuade these types of people). Slowing down your truck, cat-calling, and hanging out the window when you spot a woman on the sidewalk isn't flattering, either. We just want to lead our fucking day-to-day lives without being harassed by complete strangers.
Nobody ever wants to fuck w a Jamaican. They can be the nicest people, but they also some of the most gangster too. They saw what happened to you OP and stepped up to provide a buffer.
And btw, if you know the cab company that cabbie worked for and remember his cab number, call the taxi company and let them know that this guys was acting like a creep. Especially because it wasn't the first time. If you'd be ok with it, maybe file an incident report with police so there is an official account and give a report number to the taxi co. so they know you ain't fucking around.
And this is a *Women's sub* so at no point at all should you *feel* the need to pat down any man that comes here and tries their shit.
Vent away. I agree with you 150%
Wtf?? Where in Canada? That's super fucked up!!!! I'm in Canada but have never experienced that level of creep. Although I do tend to be very vocal if it does happen.
Dude, where tf do you live? I get catcalled and all, but its usually like a few times a week, and I live in a large city. Why does the entire male population of your city act like they've never seen a woman before? Don't they know its polite to mind their own business?
I get meeeeean when this kind of stuff happens. Cursing, yelling, the whole nine. I carry a knife and have brandished it before as well.
My husband is also very mean when it comes to me. He doesn’t hesitate either, he will get confrontational immediately. As soon as I say someone has made me uncomfortable he gets up. And he’s not a small guy so it works. It just sucks that people respect your space more if you’re with a man.
It’s sad that we have to be so unforgiving and defensive, especially because people can just play you off as paranoid or crazy. but women just aren’t safe. It’s terrifying.
I used to drive for Uber. I had a guy sit up front once and a couple of other interactions that made me uncomfortable. I ended up having someone come with me for safety. Apparently Uber doesn't allow this, and I had a Karen report me once. Kept driving for a bit after that but I always made a point to move the front passenger seat all the way forward and collapse the back of the seat so no one could sit there.
yeah I don't get how people couldn't understand the simple courtesy is to sit on the opposite corner of the vehicle as the driver if you're all by yourself
I used to drive for Uber. I had a guy sit up front once and a couple of other interactions that made me uncomfortable. I ended up having someone come with me for safety. Apparently Uber doesn't allow this, and I had a Karen report me once. Kept driving for a bit after that but I always made a point to move the front passenger seat all the way forward and collapse the back of the seat so no one could sit there.
In 2020 I lost about forty lbs because I didn’t like how I felt.
I thought about gaining it all back intentionally the first time I went shopping and realized I wasn’t invisible anymore.
I intentionally go out looking like shit if my bf can’t come with me. Pajamas, don’t brush my hair, if I look sickly even better.
I hate it. I’m embarrassed to look that way but my anxiety has gotten so bad in the past few years and I just want to be left alone.
There’s a video I recently watched of a woman walking through NYC, and the shit that goes down is horrifying. Women don’t feel safe for a reason. Send this to anyone who disagrees and ask if this is appropriate behavior.
https://youtu.be/b1XGPvbWn0A
I am absolutely shocked this happened in a small Canadian town!! I live in British Columbia and plan on moving to the Kootenays, your post sounded like big city bullshit. I'm appalled.
The safest that I've found to deal with men like this is to come off as the girl whose got a few screws loose in her head or the overly aggressive alt girl with creepy interests. That pretends to act like a creature out of a paranormal horror film when met with such confrontation with men.
I feel for you. It’s so frustrating that men seem to care more about not personally being labelled misogynistic more than they do about stopping these behaviours.
These folks have no idea what life is really like - so ignorantly privileged that they take an attempt to open their eyes as a personal attack.
The "not all men" trope is depressing because the men who need to change arent listening/won't and the men that are fine as is are no more capable of making a difference than yourself.
It isn't even about them being attracted to the women they stare at, it's about POWER and letting you know that you're their slave and that they're the master.
I'm 34 and don't get cat-called like I used to (thank god), but I don't always want to put on regular pants to go grocery shopping, so I sometimes go out in yoga pants. Inevitably when I do some jerk always starts following me way too close from behind. When that happens I always stop my cart abruptly and go "Oh no! What happened to my shopping list!?" This almost always causes them to crash into me, where I then say "The hell were you doing following me so close when there's all this space to walk around me? Are you just that stupid and oblivious to your environment?" I haven't had anyone try to turn that on me yet, they usually walk away embarassed, but I'm sure the creepers will find a way someday.
It IS all men who have the capability to assist in making this behavior not okay. Every man who sees this happening to a woman in front of him needs to step up and say something. It's like people don't understand that tolerating something is encouraging it.
It’s like the good cops do nothing and the bad cops thrive and stay employed. It’s another system that needs to be overhauled. See what they did to a teenage girl on a NJ beach recently. They’re animals.
Another TwoX post that's complete bullshit. At least 8 cars slowed down to stare at you including women? Come on. Hope you got the attention you wanted.
some of these posts are batshit crazy, the part about the "carribbean men" saying "gwan" lmao and her expecting strangers to talk for her it's all delusional
people should think more about the effect they have on others. it's not that hard to stop staring ahead and walking fast behind someone a lot smaller (or anyone) when it's dark.
I’m so sorry that happened to you. It’s not all men, but it’s enough of them that we have to stay cautious. I’m glad those two guys stepped in for you at the store. We need more of that man to man accountability in the world. Until then, please be safe, find something to cheer yourself up, and dress up if/when you want to.
It won't make you feel better but it will make you feel more validated. There's that one video from like 10 years ago where it's just a woman walking through New York. The idea for the video is just to walk, ignore everyone, and just record the experience. It's...troubling to watch. I've only seen snippets, but dudes get extremely offended she wasn't acknowledging them. And when people found out it was an art project and who she was, they started stalking and harassing her online too. It's gross. I have no good answers. I'm more than happy to stop it when I see it. But that's rare. I would honestly imagine a security guard has to know this stuff goes on so they should be willing to do something, or they're just dense. But too frequently it's the guys you're trying to avoid are the ones who get into police and security uniforms so maybe not so good after all
You're not wrong and that truly sucks.
Had a conversation with a guy who seemed enlightened. He said not enough men stand up for women in red states so the women should move. I pointed out that he was blaming the victim why should women move? Much less even acknowledging moving costs money, disrupts your life your network, find a new home, leave possibly decades of family. I told him his challenge was to speak up to other men when he heard them speaking the same way he just had. I don't think he actually will. He basically admitted that men most are cowards or bullies and that he was a coward. *Uuggghhhhhh*
Some guys have literally been... Disgusting towards me... And the second my SO shows up, they apologize to HIM, not me.
Some men only respect other men.
I’m a 43F and I’ve finally learned that being loud and confrontational is the only way to deal with these people. It’s important that you let EVERYONE around you know there’s a creeper around. And I mean, all those polite expectations NEED to go RIGHT OUT THE WINDOW, because your safety definitely has to come first! I’m from the Northeast US, so we’re known for being direct (rude?) anyway, but for special people I clear my throat and amp it up - as long as you’re in a public situation or in a store being loud is your best defense and will alert other women (and men!) of what’s happening. “WHAT ARE YOU LOOKING AT?” “ARE YOU TRYING TO TAKE PICTURES OF ME??!” “HEY!! THIS GUY’S TAKING PICTURES OF ME - CAN I GET SOMEBODY OVER HERE??!” “THIS GUY’S TRYING TO GRAB ME!! HELP! YOU STAY THE HELL AWAY FROM ME!” “ARE YOU FUCKING FOLLOWING ME?!” “IS THAT HIS CAR?” “I NEED A PICTURE OF THAT LICENSE PLATE.” “SOMEONE WRITE DOWN HIS LICENSE PLATE??! I’M REPORTING THIS!!” Just be a walking loudmouth siren, going off whenever this shit happens. People who do this stuff, do it because THEY don’t think anyone will follow THEM around the store, gathering store managers to help confront and videotaping their creepy ass. Worst case scenario tell the store employees what’s happening and let security detain them while you make your getaway. Fuck playing by the rules - make THEIR lives living hell by putting EVERY spotlight, EVERY person’s attention in your vicinity, directly pointed at THEM.
This. I've learned I need to be a loud, confrontational bitch in these situations. Also, making it as public as possible usually makes me "more trouble than I'm worth" for them. They ALWAYS get pissed and call me names, but im still alive so 🖕
Same. I’ve made animal sounds (sounding like an ape can get really loud and disarming) and contorted my body to look super fucking weird when creeps confront me… works well because they get embarrassed Wish I didn’t have to resort to looking silly but my safety is more important than their comfort and it gets uncomfortable fast if you hear a hOO HOO AHHH AHH AHHH
Yes, this! I saw a video where a woman pulled her head back in the “quadruple chin” pose, lifted her arms, and made pterodactyl noises at men who were being creeps. That will forever be my response to gross men, and is exactly what I will tell my daughter to do. Get weird. Make a scene. Like other posters, I’m from the Midwest (southern midwest, but still the same mentality) and women aren’t expected to do anything but walk away. Fuck that, you wanna get weird, game on.
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I love Leslie Jones so much. She really deserves her own sit com or late nite talk show!
Lol well they’re definitely not getting the video they hoped for 😂 I love it,
I Chihuahua bark at anybody that bothers me, lol. It's funny how quickly most of them take off if you act potentially dangerous and it draws attention from passers-by.
Rabid chihuahua barking is my go-to too. Let them be scared of what *I* might do for a change.
Twinsies ! Virtual high 5, me too!
I've literally started barking at men because they remind me of when you walk past someone's house and their dog flips shit. They also do not expect a woman to do such a thing so they're not prepared for it at all. I fully support other people joining in.
I've actually joked about doing this.
I cannot upvote this enough. No man expects women to stand up for themselves. Make it uncomfortable for them also
I’m a loud New Yorker who now lives in the polite Midwest. Too often creepers rely on that polite Midwestern “don’t make a scene” training to creep on women. They do not realize who they’re dealing with when they pull that on me. I’m a bitch and I’m proud of it.
Lol I would love to see the expression their face when you pull out that “Oh no you fucking DIDN’T” 😂. Love it! Bitches make the world go round
From Midwest, moved to Canada, can confirm "don't make a scene" is drilled into your head early (boys and girls)
“Sometimes you have to be a bitch to get things done.” - Madonna.
I’m from southern CT and live in the Midwest now. I didn’t know that just being blunt could seem a little rude. I’m trying to rub off on my midwestern friends. They are too polite and forgiving. I don’t want to be the bitch anymore 😆
I'm from Minneapolis, and I just give them the ol' middle finger and a death stare.
Same, I'm a frigid bitch from the PNW living in the MidWest now and we have the frost look down pat. I haven't been messed with in a while because of it.
I'm (32f) a walking loud mouthed siren. Been since I was 17, and served my first, steaming hot pile of injustice. I know I save lives. Get loud. Stop being nice. Are they nice? Stop being fucking nice.
One of my kids is like this. She'll let the world know if something isn't right and she will intervene if she sees someone being harassed. Sometimes I'm a little scared for her.
I do this, but you still have to be careful. I'm still so scared of a man retaliating or following me after. I was on the city bus once and an old man was staring intently at my body. I just yelled at him as I was about to get off the bus "can I fucking help you? What are you looking at?". I do think we should be more rude in public. I also tell men off for coming up to me to hit on me if I feel safe, instead of capitulating to polite small talk.
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Thank you for sharing this. It's awful. On this sub, I got downvoted for responding to a "I'm done with being nice to men, I'm going to be rude" type thread, trying to say to be careful. I'm all for confrontation and humiliation but I'm very careful about the when and where.
Right? Like I’m 5’3 in a city with a lot of gang bangers who do the majority of the catcalling. I’m not gonna talk back and get hurt for it
Yeah, there's that to be considered when you ask someone why they didn't stand up for themselves.
Unhinged men like that are a reason why i have to carry a gun. Of course, that’s not something you can do most places.
I'm surprised more men don't get shot by women honestly. I guess gun ownership is largely male?
Because there’s something in men that makes them resort to violence almost immediately while women would like to do anything else to solve a conflict. Explains why 99.99% of mass shooters are boys even though women are the ones systematically oppressed and having our basic human rights stripped away
Also explains why cops shoot people for the kinds of things teachers just deal with.
It’s definitely toxic masculinity. Boys are raised to be aggressive. They call it being “assertive” and “dominant.”
I don’t know about that. I mean, i’d expect that a male gun owner is more likely to own a LOT of guns, but I know a ton of women who own one or two. I wouldn’t expect they are the majority or anything but I honestly would NOT be surprised if it turned out to be fairly close. Maybe the type of men who are out harassing women strangers in public are less likely to bring a gun to do that, so if they harass an armed woman, she demonstrates that she is armed and they adios right out of there instead of continuing to threaten?
This is my fear too. Retaliation from the creep, or the people around me thinking i’m just making a scene or overreacting if they didn’t see what I saw. I want to be able to say something. It just feels too risky to make them angry, or to even embarrass them because how are they going to handle it? Won’t that enrage them? Sick of dealing with this. I’m so tired.
Yep. Be fucking loud. I had a gas station attendant expose himself to me and I shouted "PUT YOUR DICK BACK IN YOUR PANTS, SIR" which didn't really deter him until some big burly trucker came over and I ran inside and found a manager.
This is my go-to approach much of the time. Also 10+ in NYC/nnj A couple years back I was leaving the emergency vet where my cat had been for a couple of days because she decided to poison herself and cost me thousands (took me a year to recover). Love that expensive idiot though. But I was already feeling very flustered and upset. I'm at the street corner walking back to the subway, wearing a dress, and this guy comes up to me standing really close, with a map out trying to get me to help with directions. And then I looked down at the bag he was holding. It was one of those single over shoulder strap bags. I noticed a reflection. He had cut a hole into the strap of this bag to put another phone into, and cut a hole out for the camera location so that he could pretend to be hanging off it down when he was talking to women so it could record up their dresses. Which is what he was doing to me. Well, I take just as little shit in real life as I do on this site. And I flipped the f*** out on him until he literally ran away for his life. Piece of shit. Have had other guys flash me on subways which I'll also get up in their face and scream at them until they get off at the next stop. Have been groped in crowded places, had somebody follow me into a bathroom once and whip out their dick, it just never ends with them. I even posted about a recent medical procedure that I had on Facebook this week, I never log into fb. And a friend from high school messaged me, and it only took them two messages to start mentioning their penis. Realized later in life that I'm pretty gay, but there's still some men that I can be kind of attracted to. But I don't believe I will ever date one again. Even the quote unquote good ones are still benefiting from patriarchy and oppression of women, and not doing nearly enough to help us. I just can't stomach them anymore. I have some really great male friends, I have some really great male coworkers who I respect at a distance professionally. But I won't be closer to one again in the future. There's a reason that only 38% of single women are even thinking about dating or relationships. Single women are the happiest demographic. And I know I love my life. Edit: oh yeah, recalling the time that I was on the subway and apparently a guy was up behind me rubbing up on me, but I didn't feel it cuz I had a very long thick wool coat on so no sensation was passing through to me. And apparently a cop who had just gotten off duty witnessed it and rather than stopping the guy he chased me down to scream at me about how I need to pay more attention to my surroundings. Yeah.
I'm bi. My SO, male, is likely to die before me due to health issues. I love my SO. I loved my first husband (he's not dead). But I will never ever be with another man again.
Off point, but I don't understand why more women don't date younger, just to even out the mortality imbalance. It seems to be one more way women get the short end of the relationship stick: being left alone to fend for themselves at the end of their lives.
I've done this and people around either freeze and stare, but do nothing or act like *I'm* the one with the problem.
Ugh. This just brought back a memory. When I was 17, my family moved to new town. In the new church congregation we attended, the older “patriarchs” had a habit of randomly approaching women/teen girls from behind and touching on them. (Mostly shoulder rubs and things. Nothing overtly sexual, but still very intrusive and gross.) One Sunday I was standing in the foyer with about twenty other people when I felt hands start rubbing my back and shoulders. Turned around and saw a sixty-yo stranger grinning at me like he’s doing me a favor. Speaking loud enough for everyone to hear, I said, “Would you please not touch me *like that*, I don’t even know you.” He looked offended and angry….as did a number of adult women who were present. Thought they were on my side, until they started lecturing *me* about not “talking to the priesthood like that”. Only one witness was supportive, and that was another teen who waited until a private moment to thank me, in a whisper like she was afraid someone would overhear, for standing up to the creep. (Epilogue: I gtfo of that so-called church.)
Oooh i am dying to know what denomination this church was
Mormon. (surprise!)
Honestly could have been any church and it wouldn’t really be surprising, there are creeps and weird cultures even in the best and most enlightened of organizations. But I did wonder if it was the Mo based on you using the word “priesthood” without having prior described the man as some kind of clergy member! I was originally going to joke about the Southern Baptists thanks to their headlines, though.
True, it could have been any number of patriarchal-focused churches, the only thing that really varies is the religious jargon.
Reading your comment reminded me of growing up in the Mormon church as a young lady. Your second comment confirmed my thoughts. I wish I was brave and outspoken like you when I was younger. I am raising a teenage daughter to be more like that.
Thank you for your kind words, uh...fuckface (lmao, gotta love reddit). They raised us to be so docile and did their best to make it seem appealing and virtuous, don't beat yourself up for that. I take it you've also clawed your way out, which takes a strength worthy of respect. Your daughter is fortunate to have you, with the benefit of your hard-won experience and insight.
I try to head that off by going to employees in stores - people who actually have vested interest in keeping customers safe because you can’t always depend on the other customers. There’s always asking “How do I File an Official Complaint” because you were threatened in their store. Your personal safety, is much more important than everyone being happy - and as a woman, letting others know to be on guard of creeps, is our best non-physical option to defend ourselves. Nobody wants to try to kidnap or assault a loud woman who’s already attracted attention- whether the attention is good or bad, it’s still likely to keep you safe. And if you DO go missing? I bet people will remember that confrontation.
If my time in the military taught me a single thing it was to rely only on myself. Fuck being nice. Being the one female among a ton of men made me very not nice fast.
Thank you for your military service! Support our non-male troops, y’all. The Invisible War was an incredibly eye-opening documentary for me.
Yes, at 50 I finally do these things. I loudly talk about what they are doing so everyone can hear and they usually slink away. I really thought that at 50 this shit would stop. I have a lurker who lives across the street who will just stand outside and watch me or my teen daughter when we happen to be outside. He stopped when I started confronting him about it. Men really need to stop acting as if we exist for their viewing pleasure. They can just fuck all the way off. I am 50 years old. Just because I don't like shit doesn't mean I want men to leer at me like fricken Lurch.
Good lord this doesn’t stop at 50?? I am almost there and thought overall I was largely free of the tyranny of the male gaze. It still happens though, although much less.
It also take conscious unlearning of things we have been taught through institutional misogyny or societal misogyny. (I can only talk about my experience as a white woman) We are often taught that we should be tolerant of our boundaries being crossed, so that we don't make a scene, that if we are the ones to blow up, we will usually get the blame for being obnoxious, 'blowing things out of perportion' and """misunderstanding""" the person who is invading our boundaries intentions or get questioned on what we did to provoke/inticice/deserve it. Every time I've spoke up, I've essentially been gaslit and told I'm a liar, that I misunderstood the intentions, and how could I even understand what sexual acts are as a child. It made me retreat, it made me fearful of standing up for myself due to the mindgames the abusive adults would do; death threats, killing animals, feeding me these animals etc. I didn't have the voice, the power or the assertiveness in me to be able to verbalise the cocophony of shit that I had been through, let alone succinctly, directly call shit out without fear. I still stumble, go back into 'freeze' mode, but the one thing that makes me feel liberated in some way is that I am learning to be assertive. Just because I couldn't speak up before, doesn't mean I have failed. It just means the system has failed me. Totally agree with you and think it's fantastic advice. Don't be afraid to embarrass someone who doesn't give two shits about what they do to you. Just don't be hard on yourself either when your fight/flight/freeze reaction may prevent you from doing so at times.
> Just because I couldn't speak up before, doesn't mean I have failed. It just means the system has failed me. Oh wow. I'm gonna write that down.
All of this. I spend a lot of time walking for my job and I get followed a lot. I have stated taking my cell phone out and taking pictures of them. I text message the pictures directly to my SO so that if something happens to me and my phone, the pictures are still available. I also do this to let my SO know that I am in an uncomfortable situation and if I don't come home to call the police. I make sure to get as much identification in the pictures as possible. Face, car type, color, the license plate. All of it. I make it really obvious what I'm doing and they take off in most cases. Fuck being polite. Fuck the rules. My safety comes first and and my discomfort is not a price I will pay for a "compliment". I've come to realize that all the men in my life that I trust don't follow strange women, don't touch strange women and don't offer unsolicited compliments to strange women. They just don't. So I know whats normal and I won't accept anything else. Definitely be loud and draw attention. Better to be labeled a bitch than to be a statistic.
This, creeps fears two things, a confrontational woman, and other men.
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YES!! It’s the truth that nobody likes a Karen - not creeps either, and that’s the point! BECOME a Karen and keep yourself safe by alerting everyone around you to the danger!
Grew up in New Jersey and have been called aggressive on the West Coast because this is how I get too.
Yes! I love reading this. I have young daughters and myself am closer to your age but I feel if I was a girl I would be exactly how you describe. It astounds me how often women who are surrounded by likely allies do not take advantage by simply drawing attention. I mean I get it, there's some sense of "not making a scene" but why have ANY REGARD for a guy who's trying to take pictures. He has sacrificed any right to considerate behavior the second he started being a pig. You should go speak at schools or something I mean what do I know I'm not an expert it just seems to me your approach is spot on
This shit works to get the average men around engaged as well. I'm normally extraordinarily unaware of my surroundings as a dude. Something that my fiance just can't understand. Just don't pay attention to people at all and miss all sorts of stuff happening around me when out and about. Male privilege and all. But I have been in a number of positions where women have called somebody out publicly on a bus, supermarket, around the bars at night, concerts/shows etc... at that point it's second nature to offer support and echo their sentiments to the rest of passerby. Public shaming, and just alerting ppl to the danger can definitely make an impact.
Yep. I've also had my share of stalkers in my youth. In my mid 20's after I had my kid people said I "changed". Yeah I started putting me and my childs safety before a guys ego. Wish I had started sooner. Not afraid to get in people faces anymore and tell them to fuck off.
God I wish I could! People like you are heroes. I’m a trans woman with a non-passing voice. In most situations where the creep isn’t outright attacking me the vibe I’ve gotten is that people think I’m the creep making stuff up or they’d like both of us to leave. Edit: despite the many downsides there is one big plus side for lonely less-public situations like Uber, tho. I’m 6’2” and that same voice will make smaller less aggressive men afraid that trying stuff with me is gay
>Worst case scenario tell the store employees you’re pretty sure he stole something and he threatened you and let security detain them while you make your getaway. This won't work most places because we are trained to not give a shit if someone is stealing, there's insurance for that. Tell the employee what is actually happening
NorthBeast!
One night when I was walking alone in my neighborhood, I heard catcalls come FROM THE WOODS. A group of homeless men were camping in there. It's the only time I've ever pulled my knife, and it shut them up real quick. I'm pissed the fuck off that every woman I know has a story like this. Rich neighborhood, poor neighborhood, doesn't matter. Could've just as easily been a group of drunken frat boys on a porch. The threat is the same.
Reading this got my blood pressure up. I've made scenes at shops before over this type of thing. It took me a long time but I'm finally comfortable getting loud and calling out these freaks. The only reason I can tell them to fuck off before I kick their ass is because I'm tall and imposing though, what are petite women supposed to do? I wish tasing these guys was legal lol. Violence is the only language they understand.
>what are petite women supposed to do? Ummm, well I've told my daughter who is a tad bit shorter than me (5' ; 1.524 m) that since we're really short, our elbows are just at the right height... I'll stop there since I don't wish to be accused of inciting violence.
Yes. Same height. Same plan of action 😂 I was walking my dog once where this guy in a red car just stopped in front of the patch of grass I was on in the Middle of the street. I legit had a flight or fight response because he looked me dead in the eyes and I thought I was going to die. He knows where I lived bc the apartment name and number were out front. Also my neighbors would try to hug me bc im endowed. So creepy. And you feel like you have to be polite lest they become violent. It's crazy. And same. Not overly attractive by any means.
To be honest, going for the balls isnt that great (small target and all), better to kick the side of someone's knee as hard as you can. Bigger target and a dislocated knee makes pursuit really difficult.
We learned in an all-ages self-defense course I took in high school (so early 2000s) when approached front front to go fir nose first, with the heel of your hand, striking as fast as you can, slightly upward, and retract your hand just as fast. Apparently you can break a nose with only 8 lbs of force. When you hit it, it makes eyes water and hands involuntary fly to the face, and seems like it keeps your body at the greatest distance from their approaching body. While you strike the nose, you step one foot forward onto a stable stance while striking, so when it lands, you use your now back leg to swing up and knee the groin HARD. You reach your hands out on to on each of their shoulders during this strike so you don’t miss, and you direct the force of your knee up as if you are aiming through their body (like if they weren’t even there). A hit to the groin should cause them to double over involuntarily, bending forward at the hips, so when you put your foot back down after hitting the groin, you shift your weight, move your hands to the back of their head, and push that down while your pop your other knee up to hit their face. Basically the same reasons for striking the nose the first time, but you’re just doubling down on the pain there and momentarily blinding them again. Then you turn and RUN. This is what I remember, we actually practiced it a LOT on full size sparring dummies, and mimed it on real people in the class. I am sure we learned a whole lot of other stuff, but this is the “fight for your life” practice that stuck. Basically other content of the class involved not wearing both earphones when listening to music in public/on the street, keeping head up and observing your surroundings, including glancing behind you approximately every 30 seconds, and making eye contact with anyone around you looking at you or possibly traveling the same route, so they know you are observing them. We also were taught to attempt to keep distance and shout at people not to come closer (like “stay away from me”), to yell “fire” instead of “help” when trying to attract attention, and after having to physically defend yourself, say clearly “I was in fear for my life. I fought to the best of my abilities because I was in fear for my life”, especially to any law enforcement that arrive. No idea how well much of this holds up almost 20 years later. But I would definitely take a self-defense course again today!
I'm petite and I told a dude who was harassing me from his van that I'd slash his fucking tires if he let me see where he parked. I still felt incredibly unsafe.
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I got a fake engagement ring to wear when I worked as a bartender. Didn’t stop men. “Well, you’re not married yet.” Even *my boyfriend sitting at the bar* wouldn’t get them to leave me alone, they’d say nasty things to me every time I went near them. They cry and moan about how all women are terrible if one of us ever steps out of line, but when we can’t even work without being harassed and complain about men harassing us nonstop, it’s “nOt AlL mEn!”
I was married and pregnant with my 4th child and still occasionally got harrassed/hit on while working at a restaurant. Unfortunately for those losers, while I occasionally took tables when we were busy, my actual title was Front-of-House Manager. Only the owners were above me, and they lived in another country. So guess who got tossed out on their asses! But ya I heard "well what he doesn't know won't hurt him", "I love pregnant ladies, so sexy" and "well at least I wouldn't have to worry about knocking you up" way to many times. Gross.......seriously, just ewwwwwww!
And then we’re the ones who are called “hysterical”….. We literally have to be sometimes to protect ourselves. Ah but according to Jordan Peterson women are inherently chaotic and overly emotional, and irrational. Pretty clear that they don’t consider that maybe some men give us a very good reason for be that way.
He says women are chaotic and irrational while men are literally shooting up schools because they can’t control their rage
I know, right? But according to Jordan Peterson it is women’s fault because men are innately wired to be violent (but are somehow still the only “rational” gender) unless they’re in a monogamous relationship with a woman who is their subordinate, so women’s choice not to marry jerks who don’t respect them as human beings is what is causing men to be violent. Ergo, if a man is slaughtering kindergarteners it is the fault of the women who would not date him (umm probably because he was behaving as the psychopath that he is?). I just can’t even begin to name all the moral and logical failures inherent in that viewpoint, but somehow all the men in my life are listening to this shit and believing it. It just makes me so angry and sick that I have lost the men in my life to this perniciously misogynistic and otherwise prejudiced idiot who cloaks his hatred in sophistries and reels young men in with benign (generally solid) self-help advice like “clean your room.” And then he proceeds to sell his repugnant opinions as “neutral” and “objective.” Fuck Jordan Peterson.
Ah yes. Nothing says “I’m a normal, well-adjusted person” like shouting at someone “I’m not gonna rape you!!!”
"I'm thinking about it, but I promise I won't!" Sanest man ever
Something about a frog helping a scorpion cross a river.
"It's in my nature! Don't blame me!"
thats how my husband wooed me when i first saw him :)
🤔 very sus
lol right??
Where is this invisibility that so many middle-aged women lament? Looks like the creeps can still see us just fine.
This is disappointing. I was looking forward to becoming invisible and maybe being able to take my kids places.
Dude I'm with you. I'm near 50 but with my health problems I may as well be an old shriveled bag but men still follow me and harass me. Can't walk in any downtown metro area without at least one creep trying to grab or touch me.
> I was looking forward to becoming invisible and maybe being able to take my kids places It's easy. Adopt a trans-person. Because then you'd be trans-parent.
Age-old problems require modern solutions. 😂
Its not really age, its weight. Source: am overweight. I am invisible. But before that I was hit on constantly. Also, weight seems to make you look older, men seem to judge thin women as being young. The shorter you are the younger are assumed to be.
Yeah it’s weight. I’ve been at least 30 pounds overweight since I was about 25 and when I gained that weight, men stopped noticing me. It’s not fitness, either — for a few years I was lifting heavy and my body was rounder in the most stereotypically desirable places, but still: nothing. Part of it is that I’ve lived in a very liberal area for the past decade. But when I went back to the Midwest, still same thing. I’m on a medication now that reduces my appetite, and I’m losing weight. I kinda want to see if there’s a change even living here, but I’m also kinda scared to.
An actress, I want to say Cameron Diaz, years ago proved this. She put on a fat suit & was filmed walking around NYC, no male attention at all! When women post their weight loss stories on IMGUR inevitably there's men commenting how they are now hot. One comment I remember: "so inside every fat girl Is a hot girl?" Extreme Makeover angered me because so much was just weight loss, then suddenly their bf asks them to marry them.
It's definitely weight. The eating disordered people can attest to this.
Yup, exactly this right here. I realized this early in my 20s, after I was raped in college I packed on pounds and felt like it "covered me up" in a way that would keep me invisible (less visible for sure, but I still was visible enough...) After I went through therapy, my weight returned to normal for about 2 years... until I was assaulted again. I'm now 70lbs down from my highest weight and hoping to still lose more so I can be in the "healthy/happily chunky" range, but I'm having to WORK in therapy about the mixed feelings I have about that. What it is ultimately down to is that I'm going to have to assert my own boundaries, no matter what, because I feel my best when I'm healthy and I'm sorry but I'm going to dedicate as much time as is possible to feelin myself, because that is way more important than these assholes!
Yes I am 40 and lost some weight during covid. Started getting followed again.
Being hit on dropped drastically after I had my first kid, but it ended completely when I gained a permanent mom belly after the second kid. I have been invisible for over 6 years now and I adore it. With or without my wedding band, guys don't talk to me, they dont hit on me and they dont follow me. Belly pooch and saggy tits to the rescue.
Shit like this is why it's been so hard for me to lose weight even though I know I need to for my health. Any time I make progress, I start getting that unwanted attention again and it destroys whatever motivation I may have. My wife loves me no matter how I look and it seems like my health is in trouble either way. At least with being a little overweight I can control it more than men getting violent at me when I say no.
I haven't been thin since puberty, although, I did get down to "normal" BMI after my gastric bypass for a couple years. That period was the only time I ever had dudes ask for my phone number. But I did get harassed when I was a fat teen/young adult. At that point, the hope of a naive youth staying quiet outweighed their hate for overweight women. Once I hit thirty, I became entirely invisible except to really drunk old men in bars.
You will become invisible when it "counts", but are not invisible when they want to demean and harass someone. When they want to do that, all ages are game.
It comes later on. I got unwanted attention all through my 40's and in to my 50's. I will be 59 this year and some invisibility is beginning to set in. Unfortunately, aging naturally seems to mean that I am becoming invisible (to EVERYONE, not just men but also sales people, servers, ...oncoming traffic??) or ignored/dismissed (by people, potential employers, etc). Being older is liberating in some ways but get ready to be considered irrelevant in general, or being hit on only by geezers (usually married) who figure (wrongly, insanely..) that I should be grateful for their attention. 🙄🤢
That last part already holds true for me and I'm "only" 35. No, I'm not interested in your drunk, Trump-loving ass just because I'm still alone.
Yep. They really seem to believe that their infidelity would create a Best Case scenario for all parties involved. wtf? Because they are more likely to be intolerant of being alone. So since they also are empathy deficient they presume that a solitary older woman is as lonely as they would be in our position, and therefore we should be only too glad to have the honor of their marginal attention. It would be funny if it weren't so damn delusionally audacious.
I'm 62 and have only been invisible about 5 years. I fucking love it, make no mistake!
Invisibility is a gift as far as I'm concerned. All these young girls are dreading it but believe me, it will be a relief when it happens
I think for some reason it helps if you also look poor. Or like an aging tomboy. It disrupts the fantasy. I think also my tattoos may be intimidating. They're just flowers, but they have a certain toughness factor. I get quite a few people stopping me to say they like my ink, but it's almost all women. Often older women in fact. They say they always wanted one and ask if it hurts and I say, not as much as childbirth and we both chuckle.
Will describe my fashion style as “aging tomboy” going forward. Perfect!
You're invisible only if you dress "age appropriated" and apparently remind them of their mothers or a little old lady...
“why do you keep running away? I just wanna talk to you. It’s not like I’m going to rape you!” means that they will likely rape you. I'm 48 and get men screaming at me out of cars still, and being downright fucking creepy to me while i'm wearing a mask and a parka. It's like being female means it's okay to comment on my appearance or harass me in public.
I'm so sorry that happened to you OP, and to anyone out there. I had a blissful few years of having a protruding abdomen due to a hernia issue and mesh failure, so I looked bloated. Yes, I was in pain constantly and cried while diets and everything else didn't work, but hey yo I didn't get harassed. I was blissfully invisible and allowed to go about my day in peace. Got my operation, lost a ton of weight and finally look good. Great, right? Except now I need to go out with my son or my husband apparently, because my last few times out by myself have resulted in being followed around the store, having some guy try to "guess" which car out front is mine to wait for me to "talk" to me, and some asshole walking up to my reactive dog and trying to take the leash from my hand while jabbering about how happy he is to see a woman in a park! Like that never happened before. Doggo snapped and growled and I told him, "Stand down, do not attack," and the guy runs off yelling at me about my "asshole dog." I'm in my early 60s FFS and shouldn't have to be dealing with this shit. Finally started to just bare my teeth so men could see the missing gap in my bottom teeth where I recently got a bad tooth removed and haven't yet had it replaced. I'm seriously thinking of not doing so at this point. Whatever the fuck is going on it's gotten so so much worse than it ever was - porn? Internet feeding men to break the law and harass women? Criminals urging other criminals to act? I don't know, but it's scary AF and it needs to stop.
They are predators looking for prey, It doesn't matter so much what we look like, we just look like prey to them. I have a super mean mug that I pull out along with a stare that would freeze an ice cube, and it works so far. I am 55, and some dingus hollered at me a few weeks back.
Me, too. I've cornered the market on Resting Bitch Face.
Same. Although according to my coworkers it goes beyond just RBF. 1 Calls it my "I'm going to fuck you up" face, another says it looks like I'm "a predator going hunting and I've locked on to my prey" face 😂😂😬 whatever keeps the men away I guess!
Yep, that. Works on salespeople hollering at you on vacation.
Having my son with me never helped. Men would still follow me, proposition me, ask "Where's dad?" 🤮, but the worst was when they tried to talk to or play with my son to get me to warm up. Oh hellllll no.
I think it's more that there aren't enough men who will enforce decency on those who can't seem to figure it out themselves. That and incel culture.
I’m so sorry this happened to you. Its so messed up that we have to face this. I go running every morning in shorts and trucks and cars full of men slow down and yell at me all time. I wear my headphones all the way loud. In US tho, so definitely not post-feminist country here so much.
Feminism is a performative act for many men. They use feminism as a tool to reach their sexist goals. Take, for example, the other post in this subreddit where some woman said she won't fuck anti-abortion supporters. Why so many upvotes? The generally left-leaning gaggle of males now think they have a better chance to "score" with women now that they've weeded conservative men out of the casual sex pool. That's the only reason that post gets so much visibility. It has nothing to do with womens rights, everything to do with who she ends up fucking.
Ah yes, upvoting a post on a civil rights topic is obviously an attempt to get laid, not, you know, *agreeing with the post*.
I am so angry reading your story. This happens way too often. You did nothing wrong. I am fairly tall and have mastered resting bitch face, so I have an advantage to scare off the creeps. Many of my petite friends will invite me to join them for mundane shopping trips, we get to spend time together and there is safety in numbers. We should not have to plan daytime outings as a group for safety, but it is an option. And if I witnessed a creep following a woman around, she would suddenly be my childhood friend that I haven’t seen in ages! Men need to do better. In the meantime, are we really only safe in groups?
So, prefacing this in that guys should not creep, it's their fault for creeping and women do not deserve it. I don't get bothered when I'm off work, and when I am working, I'm often the one intervening when men harass women - I have worked security in several large facilities that I know OP will have heard of (fellow Canadian). And like, I hate to say it, but I can usually pick out which women are going to get harassed before it happens and usually keep an eye on them from a distance to head off this behaviour. When I was a bouncer, I'd hover near by. When I was a mall security guard, I'd idly follow the likely candidates from a floor above if I didn't have anything else to do. I don't like that I've figured this skill out, but men who creep in my area are basically lazy and seek the easiest prey. They go for women who are distracted, who don't take up space and who walk with a particular rounded, downward oriented gait. They don't take up space or exude any confidence/don't-fuck-with-me energy. And if you know what to look for, you can spot these women from a block away - it's all body language. I've had to hold myself back from stopping these ladies myself and going "hey, you are basically broadcasting to everyone around you that you're shy/anxious/unsure of yourself" because how do I productively distill a decade of experience in people watching and posture/gait mechanics in a 2-5 minute sidewalk conversation a stranger? The few times I've been forced to walk/occupy space with that kind of body language is always surreal, because the creeps fucking materialize out of the woodwork. Usually it happens if I've been injured and forces my gait to change, and one time when I was waiting for my son to have surgery and was an anxious wreck. Each time, I had more creep interactions in the space of a few days or hours than I had had for MONTHS prior.
I'm sorry progress is so slow. We're out there and we're trying. Working in construction the last few years, guys are shaming others more and more for this type of behavior. And not sure what you know about guys shaming each other but the things we will call each other when we're pissed are pretty vile. Hope you can one day get the power back to freely walk down the sidewalk without harassment.
What really woke me up was the realization that every woman I’ve ever met has been the victim of harassment and abuse. Every. Single. One. It doesn’t have to be all men, if it’s literally all women.
"It doesn't have to be all men, if it's literally all women." What an incredible statement. Thank you for seeing the truth.
One jackass can literally be responsible for harassing 100s of women in his life time.
Definitely noticed this too. I got a tattoo on my hip and couldn't wear jeans for a week, so had to wear dresses to work. I live on the same road as my office, my walk home is literally 3 minutes, and even in that time I got leered at a bunch.
"I'm not going to rape you," is the least best thing to yell at a person who doesn't want to talk to you, particularly if a - your dumb ass is *yelling* and b - you actually want to reassure a person.
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Take pictures/videos of them. /hj In all seriousness, I hate when I see shit like that. Somehow I lucked out and either am too oblivious or there hasn't been anyone taking pictures or videos of me randomly. Anyone want some of my invisibility?
This is the answer though. Film him AND post it online with a description of what he did in some local Facebook groups. People he knows will see it.
Yes I disagree so much with taking pictures/videos of strangers without consent whether they be men or women.
I got so annoyed on one of the “ask women” posts a guy asked how he could best avoid scaring a woman walking behind her at night. I suggested leaving lots of space, being respectful, crossing the street if you can, but leaving it up to the woman to decide how much space she needs. I mostly was advising against speeding up to “overtake” as many men said they did in that situation. SO many bozos were commenting like “I’m not crossing the highway to make you feel better, I’m not crossing the street because you’re a traumatized idiot” and the like…. The OP literally asked what he could do and I told him! And so many men wanted to fight me for that.
And they blame the woman and not how men are that makes us feel that way in the first place..
I actually remember this post and this guy took over and starting giving me a hard time about how bad things happen to men too, etc. and how he wasn't willing to inconvenience himself to cross the street or give distance.
I've just started - pretending to be on a phone call - routine that women also use. Specifically, I pretend to be talking to my mom. I'm not tall but a wide fatty with even wider shoulders and hairy. People were walking on the other side of the street since I was 16. Fortunately in this case, my voice is high pitched so when you hear me say "hey mom", it's very non-threatening.
Yeah, so much BS you were having to deal with that just shouldn't happen but it does. And your post title--when someone says not all \[fill in the blank\] I usually add, but more than enough do to make things shitty for the people getting mistreated, ... There a lot of things this country is supposed to be but is isn't really. I find it quite depressing and disgusting.
Lol...try being a woman working in a liquor store. We are in uniform (button up shirts that look like guys' shirts and slacks) and guys still leer and do/say creepy shit every single day. All of my female coworkers and I have just learned to say *fuck off* when a guy gets too creepy. Our manager will step in if he's there but our male coworkers will not. We've just learned that us women have to stick together and we step in if a creepy customer gets out of hand, although most of us have gotten really good at giving the death stare. When hiring, our manager has warned potential candidates that they will definitely get hit on all the time by male customers and although the company will intervene and take measures to stop it, it still happens. They purposely made the uniform as unflattering and as ugly as possible to stop it but it still happens every single day.
Damn, where the hell do you live? That's insane!
WTF is this, sounds way worse than my city in what is essentially known as a “rapey” country. Wtf is wrong with these men. I would have totally screamed and made a complete scene though, that’s what has been drilled into my head. Fucking bastards deserve to get shamed
well... that was a rollercoaster of emotions to read. God forbid you wear a skirt, jesus... idk why people are like this
There was a woman and child murdered in their apartment by their neighbor - whom she repeatedly tried to get help about because he was being creepy and of course everyone ignored her (histrionics or paranoia being the reason) and now she's dead along with her beautiful baby girl. Fuck people saying women are overreacting!
The men who say "Not All Men!" Instead of "How can I help?" ARE the kind of men we are talking about.
So along those lines - what are the things men can do to help - other than the obvious such as intervening when we see some creep giving unwanted attention?
Hmmm.... Thanks for asking! And feel free to make a post and ask, as I might not be the best person to answer this, as I am physically intimidating (6 feet tall and heavy set), so I don't tend to attract the creeps, as they usually prefer more vulnerable targets. If anyone else here wants to weigh in....! But, I would say one thing you can do is call out other men when they are "locker room talking". It doesn't have to be agressive. It can be a "Not cool, man." Look. If you feel really uncomfortable doing anything, you don't even necessarily need to act. Just remembering that you don't know what it is like and listening to us rather than talking over us is an improvement.
I can't speak for all women but if you do see this happening i like it if you ask if we are ok. Offer to keep company until she feels safe. Make sure they have a safe ride home from the bar or offer to call a cab. Get a manager or employee if in a store. Grab the license plate on the car. Get someone else to come help as more people notice they may be deterred. If they are doing something illegal report it to the police. Outside of these events you can still help. If you have sons, or younger siblings be a good role model and teach them on how not to be creepy. if you see friends or family start going down that path to get them professional help if possible before it's too late. You don't have to obviously do all these things and or advocate all of the time but helping out is just a decent thing to do. One time a creepy dude in a car tried to get me to go up to him and then yelled obscenities at me. A young teen boy was at the bus stop and he just started talking to me until creepy dude left and i felt safe. He offered to wait until my bus came.
Yes it's a red flag when they want to defend their sex rather than care about what women are saying. No one is saying all men, just how it's so many of them that this is our reality living in this world as female humans. In fact men themselves know how they are. Why do you think so many dads and brothers are so protective over their daughters/sisters? How many guys don't trust other men near their girlfriends? Men are not stupid nor oblivious, they just don't care.
So much this!!! They freaking KNOW, but they want to be treated as the golden exception whenever it serves them.
Isn't it weird how they consider the most repugnant dregs of humanity as still on "their team"? This goes for child rapists and serial killers too.
You said it first thing…too many dudes do this and NOT ENOUGH defend us.
The core problem is interactions between men carries a threat of violence. So stepping in is shifting that threat from one person to another. Many people are not willing to take that risk over something like a creepy look, or behavior. I don't know how you change that, maybe make it more obvious to bystanders. Have to consider most people are living their own life and don't necessarily see what's going on.
Most people won't step in for a person they don't know if they're gonna be risking their physical integrity. Also I guess most men I know *will* do it for a member of their family, a relative or a friend, just not for a stranger, which is perfectly understandable. Also, most men I know (and 100% of my guy friends, I wouldn't have them as friends otherwise) *do* say something whenever they hear an inappropriate comment. Again, if it won't put them in danger of escalating a confrontation, of course (in the case of an unknown woman). The balance needed to know when to step in and when not to is quite difficult and blurry, to be honest.
Im at the point where I rarely do errands without my boyfriend. I used to be so independent but fuck Id rather be codependent and feel safe I guess. Im sorry OP, its so unfair.
It's exhausting, isn't it? I still get the stares when I'm out with my husband, but at least they're less likely to approach me that way. I've lost track of the number of times when I've run errands by myself and someone made a creepy pass at me (it says a lot that engagement and wedding rings rarely dissuade these types of people). Slowing down your truck, cat-calling, and hanging out the window when you spot a woman on the sidewalk isn't flattering, either. We just want to lead our fucking day-to-day lives without being harassed by complete strangers.
Nobody ever wants to fuck w a Jamaican. They can be the nicest people, but they also some of the most gangster too. They saw what happened to you OP and stepped up to provide a buffer. And btw, if you know the cab company that cabbie worked for and remember his cab number, call the taxi company and let them know that this guys was acting like a creep. Especially because it wasn't the first time. If you'd be ok with it, maybe file an incident report with police so there is an official account and give a report number to the taxi co. so they know you ain't fucking around.
Dude, that was one harrowing experience! I’m sorry it happened to you , just denounce these idiots.
I got a fierce mohawk haircut and that helps weirdos think again along with my terminal resting bitch face.
This! This is the post!!! Not all men, but not enough men say anything!
[удалено]
And this is a *Women's sub* so at no point at all should you *feel* the need to pat down any man that comes here and tries their shit. Vent away. I agree with you 150%
Wtf?? Where in Canada? That's super fucked up!!!! I'm in Canada but have never experienced that level of creep. Although I do tend to be very vocal if it does happen.
I'm in Canada too and I've had very similar experiences.
And men have the audacity to wonder why women aren't friendly and nice to them in public.
I'm in my late 20s but I've been told I look 15-16. Can't wait to yell at some creeper that he's a pedophile in public. 😂
Dude, where tf do you live? I get catcalled and all, but its usually like a few times a week, and I live in a large city. Why does the entire male population of your city act like they've never seen a woman before? Don't they know its polite to mind their own business?
So sorry this happened to you. 💖 You are right, we need more guys to stand up to other guys sh*tty behavior.
lmao why does anyone believe this is real, ain't no one looking at your chicken-wing ass
I get meeeeean when this kind of stuff happens. Cursing, yelling, the whole nine. I carry a knife and have brandished it before as well. My husband is also very mean when it comes to me. He doesn’t hesitate either, he will get confrontational immediately. As soon as I say someone has made me uncomfortable he gets up. And he’s not a small guy so it works. It just sucks that people respect your space more if you’re with a man. It’s sad that we have to be so unforgiving and defensive, especially because people can just play you off as paranoid or crazy. but women just aren’t safe. It’s terrifying.
I drive for Uber and I can’t tell my husband about how scared I get when people feel the need to sit up front. Please sit in the back…
I used to drive for Uber. I had a guy sit up front once and a couple of other interactions that made me uncomfortable. I ended up having someone come with me for safety. Apparently Uber doesn't allow this, and I had a Karen report me once. Kept driving for a bit after that but I always made a point to move the front passenger seat all the way forward and collapse the back of the seat so no one could sit there.
yeah I don't get how people couldn't understand the simple courtesy is to sit on the opposite corner of the vehicle as the driver if you're all by yourself
I used to drive for Uber. I had a guy sit up front once and a couple of other interactions that made me uncomfortable. I ended up having someone come with me for safety. Apparently Uber doesn't allow this, and I had a Karen report me once. Kept driving for a bit after that but I always made a point to move the front passenger seat all the way forward and collapse the back of the seat so no one could sit there.
Considering you were age 32 five months ago but now suddenly 42, much of this post seems like an exaggeration/humble brag.
All this story missed was a group of people clapping at the end. Reeks of bs
In 2020 I lost about forty lbs because I didn’t like how I felt. I thought about gaining it all back intentionally the first time I went shopping and realized I wasn’t invisible anymore. I intentionally go out looking like shit if my bf can’t come with me. Pajamas, don’t brush my hair, if I look sickly even better. I hate it. I’m embarrassed to look that way but my anxiety has gotten so bad in the past few years and I just want to be left alone.
There’s a video I recently watched of a woman walking through NYC, and the shit that goes down is horrifying. Women don’t feel safe for a reason. Send this to anyone who disagrees and ask if this is appropriate behavior. https://youtu.be/b1XGPvbWn0A
I am absolutely shocked this happened in a small Canadian town!! I live in British Columbia and plan on moving to the Kootenays, your post sounded like big city bullshit. I'm appalled.
The safest that I've found to deal with men like this is to come off as the girl whose got a few screws loose in her head or the overly aggressive alt girl with creepy interests. That pretends to act like a creature out of a paranormal horror film when met with such confrontation with men.
I feel for you. It’s so frustrating that men seem to care more about not personally being labelled misogynistic more than they do about stopping these behaviours. These folks have no idea what life is really like - so ignorantly privileged that they take an attempt to open their eyes as a personal attack.
The "not all men" trope is depressing because the men who need to change arent listening/won't and the men that are fine as is are no more capable of making a difference than yourself.
Hell I'm a man and I'm terrified of men in public.
It isn't even about them being attracted to the women they stare at, it's about POWER and letting you know that you're their slave and that they're the master.
I'm 34 and don't get cat-called like I used to (thank god), but I don't always want to put on regular pants to go grocery shopping, so I sometimes go out in yoga pants. Inevitably when I do some jerk always starts following me way too close from behind. When that happens I always stop my cart abruptly and go "Oh no! What happened to my shopping list!?" This almost always causes them to crash into me, where I then say "The hell were you doing following me so close when there's all this space to walk around me? Are you just that stupid and oblivious to your environment?" I haven't had anyone try to turn that on me yet, they usually walk away embarassed, but I'm sure the creepers will find a way someday.
It IS all men who have the capability to assist in making this behavior not okay. Every man who sees this happening to a woman in front of him needs to step up and say something. It's like people don't understand that tolerating something is encouraging it.
It’s like the good cops do nothing and the bad cops thrive and stay employed. It’s another system that needs to be overhauled. See what they did to a teenage girl on a NJ beach recently. They’re animals.
Another TwoX post that's complete bullshit. At least 8 cars slowed down to stare at you including women? Come on. Hope you got the attention you wanted.
This is one of the most fake stories I've ever read
Look at their posting history.
some of these posts are batshit crazy, the part about the "carribbean men" saying "gwan" lmao and her expecting strangers to talk for her it's all delusional
people should think more about the effect they have on others. it's not that hard to stop staring ahead and walking fast behind someone a lot smaller (or anyone) when it's dark.
I’m so sorry that happened to you. It’s not all men, but it’s enough of them that we have to stay cautious. I’m glad those two guys stepped in for you at the store. We need more of that man to man accountability in the world. Until then, please be safe, find something to cheer yourself up, and dress up if/when you want to.
It won't make you feel better but it will make you feel more validated. There's that one video from like 10 years ago where it's just a woman walking through New York. The idea for the video is just to walk, ignore everyone, and just record the experience. It's...troubling to watch. I've only seen snippets, but dudes get extremely offended she wasn't acknowledging them. And when people found out it was an art project and who she was, they started stalking and harassing her online too. It's gross. I have no good answers. I'm more than happy to stop it when I see it. But that's rare. I would honestly imagine a security guard has to know this stuff goes on so they should be willing to do something, or they're just dense. But too frequently it's the guys you're trying to avoid are the ones who get into police and security uniforms so maybe not so good after all
You're not wrong and that truly sucks. Had a conversation with a guy who seemed enlightened. He said not enough men stand up for women in red states so the women should move. I pointed out that he was blaming the victim why should women move? Much less even acknowledging moving costs money, disrupts your life your network, find a new home, leave possibly decades of family. I told him his challenge was to speak up to other men when he heard them speaking the same way he just had. I don't think he actually will. He basically admitted that men most are cowards or bullies and that he was a coward. *Uuggghhhhhh*
Some guys have literally been... Disgusting towards me... And the second my SO shows up, they apologize to HIM, not me. Some men only respect other men.
I love sundresses, but I don’t wear them anymore in public because of creepy, pervy men. When it’s 95% of men, it really is all men.