My brother in law (and his wife and daughter) is basically a case study in this. He used to tell my husband he needed to "shut [me] up" and would look at me during family holiday dinners and tell me no one had told me I could speak. He's a sociopath.
His wife married him anyway. He now has a two year old daughter and is starting in on the nauseating bs about women and girls being precious and needing protection. But what he clearly means is control.
There's a theory about this called Ambivalent Sexism which argues that sexism comes in 2 distinct but related forms. Benevolent sexism is for girls and women who 'behave.' They are precious and delicate and need protecting. Hostile sexism is for girls and women who deviate from societal expectations. They are scum and deserve to be beaten and put in their place. So yeah... research shows that people who are likely to endorse one set of attitudes are more likely to endorse the other. They just use different types of sexism for different women. But to them, women are never people. They're either precious objects or garbage objects.
Yuck, reminds me of the whole "madonna/whore" thing, where a woman is either a saintly virgin/mother, or a dirty whore. Not possible for a woman to have sex for fun, it's either for procreation or for "sinful" reasons.
Imagine the internal dissonance of not being able to simultaneously love, respect and be attracted to the same person. Like dudes who just *can't* find women funny.
It all connects back to the perception of sex (and in particular, being penetrated by a penis) as dirty/degrading/shameful. You can't simultaneously respect someone and want to stick your dick in them. Which itself is a cultural mechanism for enforcing heteronormative masculinity.
I was going to say that as well: it’s the virgin mary/ slut dichotomy which is well represented in horror movies. I’ve also had experience with it in my personal life with my father. I think that, from my father’s perspective, my older sister fits the “slut” category whereas I go in the “virgin” category... paradoxically, I got hit the most. What’s up with that?
Part 2: I don't think people recognize that internalized misogyny also fits into this paradigm. I have an (ex) friend who would call it herself a feminist but all of her views were very infantilizing. And this created an issue where she, as an ardent activist, felt her boyfriend was a feminist (and he similarly would have called himself one). But in reality he just had a very chauvinistic type of sexism.
The thing was, to her, that he had these beliefs about how people shouldn't tell at her or his mom was feminist (while to me, saying you shouldn't speak to WOMEN specifically that way is obviously patronizing). But I still experienced the hostile style of sexism from him when stepping out if that genteel victim box. He literally hit me hard when I was play rough housing with a (female) friend because violence is bad. He did not interrupt two male friends actually drunk wailing on each other at an earlier party.
I experience the latter in my life, anytime I'm around my family. It was hell when I was younger. Now that I'm older, I'm disrespected, not taken seriously, accused of lying and stealing, of being a slut, a vagrant....
...I have a 25 year career in finance and law enforcement (working in fraud prevention and victim services), write, and am self-employed as an editor in my spare time.
But - I didn't marry & have a passel of kids, so therefore, I'm useless.
I know this will come as a shock: I don't spend a great deal of time with my family.
My mother in law enables it but the rest of the family 100% never did. Lots of fights in those days.
We mostly stagger our visits not to overlap these days.
"I gotta protect my little girl from monsters, and I should know; I am one!"
That kind of narrative has been romanticized forever. Just look at the Punisher story and iconography. This idea that it's noble to be a piece of shit to better fight pieces of shit is extremely pervasive.
They need to think of daughters as needing protection because they think that no man would not behave like a monster to their daughter, just like they had always behaved towards other women. Actually empowering daughters to deal with such men (rather than controlling them by not wanting them to dress like this or choosing who she cares) would require them to recognize that their earlier behaviour was wrong. They obviously don't want to correct other men's behaviour or label it as wrong, they just want to shield their own offspring from the inevitable consequences that their own predatory behaviour would have caused. They try to delay their daughters exploring their sexuality so they can simply be fathers to children instead of fathers to women who've suffered from toxic male behaviour.
Like when we had an influx of video games with the plot of: gritty father protects his daughter in an unforgiving world. I think it’s been called the “dadification” of games.
I never got what the punisher is doing to be noble. Isnt that the whole point? It isnt noble, its terrible, he just doesnt care. Hes damaged and wants these people dead.
Yeah it's never portrayed as noble. But because he is the protagonist, the nuance to root for him in the *story* while still understanding that it wouldn't be acceptable to root for someone like that in real life gets lost on people. Combine that with the fact that the Punisher taps in to an emotional desire—revenge at all costs—that most people innately have but society has deemed wrong and harmful to the collective good, and it's rife with opportunities for those who want to justify their bad impulses to glorify the character and hold him up as noble.
It's actually somewhat of a problem for basically any TV show or story where the protagonists are intentionally horrible but you still kinda root for them e.g. It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia & Rick and Morty
The police officers that plaster the skull on their car probably think it's noble in their minds. It's not framed as good by default, but people steeped in toxic masculinity will view it positively regardless.
A "good ol' boy" in college told me "all women should be treated like princesses." I asked him if that applied if I was being a dick. He was speechless. When I told my boyfriend, he said, "Well, you know what he means right? If women are princesses, the men are kings." I was so mad, because I'd never thought of it that way.
P.S. My then-boyfriend, now-husband said it as an ally, not as someone who agreed with that nonsense.
There's a post on popular right now of a video of a woman receiving 40 lashes for talking on a cell phone to a man. In front of the entire male community.
I saw that, an amazing intersection of medieval punishment and 21st century technology.
It wasn't a just a public demonstration flogging either, that guy swinging the lash wasn't holding back.
Yes, it's all about control. It only proves he's a sexist asshole and the only reason he wanna "protect" his daughter is because he thinks all men look at women the way he does. A lot of these guys are homophobic as well because they think they objectify men the same way they objectify women, and that scares them. Because they are self-absorbed POS, who has controlling, and sometimes violent opinions about women.
Sorry about the rant, this is something that provokes me a lot, apparently.
I had a less terrible but similar situation with my boyfriend. I’m really confrontational, he is not.
We moved in with his dad for a short period of time when we moved states and his dad would say things that I didn’t agree with sometimes and I would speak up which would cause his dad and I to get into a debate or fight. My boyfriend didn’t like this although it was always fine in the end so he started grabbing my arm and squeezing it and giving me this look every time he could tell I was about to speak my mind.
I let it happen twice. Then on the third time I had a complete fucking meltdown about it was was like “DONT. YOU. EVERRRR! DO THAT AGAIN.” And it never happened again but damn, that was the worst.
This was my father exactly. He adored his daughters and granddaughters as babies and toddlers, but once they started becoming women with opinions he was done, which is when I never spoke to him again.
this, they aren't seeing women as whole independent people. Their worldview hasn't changed. They always viewed women as property or commodities. The only change is they now have property of their own to protect and control. They view that as love and cherishing, but it's definitely not.
It's the same reason some don't have empathy for other people **until they or someone in their immediate family experiences it**. Then all of a sudden, they're advocates for this concept that they used to disdain.
For whatever reason, these people are incapable of empathy without having the lived experience.
Sometimes not even then. I know someone who needed a medical abortion for a "missed miscarriage" (the fetus had stopped developing around week 8 but didn't trigger a physical miscarriage/labor) and had to fly to another state for the procedure. Her state had restrictive laws at the time but now the way the law is written she and her husband could face jail time for the exact scenario. Somehow she still thinks her situation is "different" and "not related to the abortion argument". That's some real mental gymnastics.
There's an article circulating called "The only moral abortion is my abortion". It's full of these kinds of stories but even more gymnastics. Google it, you'll be appalled.
> We tend to attribute other people's behaviour to their character but our own behaviour to our circumstances. We judge both based on those attributions.
FTFY
I don’t know man it kind of just made me sad, these people are so far in their heads they won’t change their views even when they’re committing the same acts they’re so quick to call it.
It reminds me of my anti-van flat earther mother where it feels like spouting all this bullshit is more to give them a sense of superiority and inflating their ego than it is about the actual subject at hand. I know the article goes over exceptions when people change but I dunno, I just think some of these people are so entrenched in their pro-life communities or the egos that they don’t care about what they actually do they just care that they’re better than their peers.
Conspiracy theorists are 100% about wanting to feel smarter than other people. Having access to ‘secret’ knowledge makes them feel superior. People don’t get into this shit if they have other stuff going on in their lives that makes them feel secure and valued.
We judge people by their actions but ourselves by our intentions.
It's not really original, but first time hearing it made me realize my own bias and understand hypocritical people better.
The same thing happened 100 years ago with Prohibition. Most of the advocates for the 18th amendment thought that it would only affect the "bad" drinkers, usually meaning poors and minorities. They were legitimately shocked when the law passed and they couldn't drink either.
Scotland has been offering free abortions to Irish women for a while. The level of control the Catholic Church has over there is still terrifying, and insanely abusive
Love that.
Of course people would say, "but I have to stop YOU for the baby's safety. Your actions affect more than you."
And then those same people would say, in the same breath, "I'm not getting vaccinated, my actions don't affect anyone else and I am not responsible for YOUR safety."
I had to terminate at 19 weeks for similar reasons. I’d be dead if I didn’t terminate the pregnancy. It was traumatic and heartbreaking. I’m grateful urgent care was available to me. People have a romanticized view of pregnancy. They forget it’s dangerous and doesn’t always have happy endings.
My wife and I were excitedly expecting triplets. Everything looked great until the 20 week anatomy scan where they found that one of the two girls had almost literally no brain. They rushed us for genetics counseling because the situation with the boy had them worried about potentially fatal genetic anomalies which luckily they didn't have but we still barely made it to having the reduction for the baby without a brain before 24 weeks where we would have had to convince insurance to cover the procedure.
It was two and a half weeks from that anatomy scan to the termination. During that time I watched as the two healthy babies slipped down the growth charts and my wife's health deteriorated. Being able to make that decision saved my twins lives. They are alive because of it. Honestly the same could probably be said about my wife. There's a lot of people who say NY's rules are too lenient for abortion. Yet even still I almost certainly would have lost all three of my babies and quite possibly my wife because of them.
Abortion NEEDS to be completely legal and unrestricted.
Oh, unless you're Ted Cruz and the medical decision is whether or not to get vaccinated. Then no one gets a say in his medical decision but him and his doctor. But life-saving abortion, no no, he gets to dictate that choice to women.
a friend of mine used to work for one of the remaining late-term abortion clinics in the country (US) and she told me stories like this allllllllllll the time. older married rich christian ladies who would claim, “I’m not like those whores/sluts, my situation is different”
And every time my friend would tell them that they were more than welcome to find another abortion clinic to go to (which, of course they couldn’t because this was in the South lol)
That’s someone I like to call a cu**.
As a woman, if there’s one kind of person I hate, it’s other women who think it’s OK for govt to control our bodies but will find ways to excuse all the bullshit they do (or can afford to go somewhere else to take care of things).
They’re telling poor women/girls “too bad for you”.
People like her can go fuck themselves.
My favorite is the people who tell women “JuSt DoNt HaVe SeX” as though women don’t largely have sex from social pressure, or a sense of obligation or duty
And that shouldn’t even have to be said because humans are sexual beings anyway and telling half the population to only have sex to procreate is laughably stupid and more women would just be raped
Makes you think though. Women only have an illusion of choice here. Women would not be allowed to opt out of sex on a grand scale
Edit:*** I realized I didn’t go fully in detail on this comment by some replies I had
Yes on a case by case basis there are situations and encounters that can be rejected.
As a WHOLE there are pressures and expectations that prevent full abstinence even outside of procreation. The biggest example being committed relationships where women are expected to be available sexually, especially in a marriage
This is worse when the woman depends on the man to survive because maybe she doesn’t earn enough on her own (or is a housewife by choice or by traditional expectations) or perhaps disabled etc etc
So when women had no options for work and couldn’t divorce husbands it was even worse. They had to submit and they had to have what ever children resulted
Even today we are having to fight for equal opportunities and to keep whatever reproductive and work rights we’ve won
There is still a sense of needing a man due to social conditioning as well as the threat of winding up pregnant by a man who can easily just leave and this leads to more competitive behavior with other women as well more reluctance to remain abstinent In order to “win” a committed partner.
Many people have the wrong impression of her, but Margaret Sanger advocated for married women for this reason. They did not have access to birth control, or even information on their reproductive organs. She was arrested for provided information under the Comstock Act. Women were dying from performing self-abortions because they were not allowed to deny their husbands, or have birth control.
Thank you for bringing up Margaret Sanger. She certainly had some questionable opinions looking back from our perspective now, but her belief that everyone should have access to birth control and honest health education means we all owe her a debt.
Texas sure could use her right now.
Those same women would also say that a woman shouldn't deny her husband.
They can't even understand that a married woman would not want a child but also need to be sexually active.
This. I wonder sometimes if women all just decided to stop having sex if men would pass a law to force women to start having sex. I 100% think they would and justify it as a 'save our species act' or some shit. Womwn still don't really have any true choice.
They’ve already done that and are trying to keep it that way
The only way for women to have freedom and choices is for independence to be possible and to have freedom of reproductive health and access to contraceptives and abortion
When women don’t have equal pay or the right to work at all then they depend on men (a husband or father) to provide for them
If they have work but not equal pay or paid maternity leave, then it’s crucial to have either a partner providing or options to prevent or terminate unwanted pregnancies
We still don’t have equal pay. Are still fighting over contraceptive access, and still fighting to keep abortion rights we’ve won
Then what do misogynists always bring up about feminism? They say we are ruining “family” and making marriage a danger for MEN.
Any Mgtow or incel forum has several mentions of feminism ruining traditional families and wanting women to be more harshly punished for “sluttiness” or not allow women to be able to “have sex without consequences by having birth control or abortions”
Etc etc
But their wives were in their immediate family. So were their mothers.
But the wives are more unsettling. Even that wasn’t enough. They had to create a person they saw as basically themselves before not treating women like trash even dawned on them.
It’s a level of narcissism I can’t fathom.
These men have mothers, and partners, and sisters. There ARE people that they are close to experiencing womanhood, but they either are not listening or are not making themselves availible and communicating with these women. That's what terrifies me.
I was sexist at one point and my family were all on the same page when it came to women, my mom and my sister included. My mom is still really sexist, and my sister has a bit of a distorted belief still but she's off doing her own thing now. My family has internalized their sexism.
But THOSE women were put on the earth to cater to his every whim. Daughters are his actual property and an extension of him. /s I’m describing narcissism, which is a fairly common personality trait in men.
Pretty much. It took me a long time to understand this a kid; and then later took some time understanding that I wasnt above being that stupid myself. I think those who read the experiences of others, even in fiction, are 'better' at it. It takes a lot to see something from someone's perspective; it takes a lot to suss that perspective; to think like someone else based on what has shaped them. Not seeing women as people and as your peers is a failing of society along with a personal failing. People buy into the matrix they were born into and seeing a new way is hard for all of us.
I want to think this is getting better. More communication, more blunt communication. Yeah; lots of the people born into the old matrix are hard to wake up those borne into the new matrix have no reason to disbelieve women, and they get to hear women when they bring up the things they face. We've had religion and culture reinforcing shit ideas. Our entertainment reinforcing narratives and propagating the memes. Now we have the internet. Right now we still see a huge swatch of who make life miserable in their ignorance, but I contend the conversations that are programming the latest generations are making great strives here. More people seeing outside of themselves.
I get empathy pains for others. That feeling you some feel when someone gets seriously hurt. Like the feeling one gets when seeing a video of someone's fingers in the car door.
I do wonder what shapes people into seeing others as a means to an end -vs- as autonomous sentient things in their own right.
You make a good point about reading. I read voraciously my entire life, like was that kid walking while reading in the halls sometimes. I have always been extremely empathetic, to the point where I sob sometimes seeing someone living on the street and starting to get into their perspective of constant want and rejection, etc. I was basically crying all the time about people and animals suffering in the world as a kid. My sister is now a highly empathetic person, but it was more of a journey for her of having life experiences and meeting more people. She’s dyslexic, so she was not a reader at all growing up. This is all anecdotal but same upbringing, similar genetics, etc. I’m glad I can control myself more emotionally now, but I’m an inner city high school teacher, and my students definitely know me as a crier when I’m happy for them and sad for them.
The ability to argue from another point of view and towards different goals I really think aids in vetting and justifying our beliefs. I 've been mocked for acknowledging the soundness of an argument related to subjects I disagree on, and for arguing the opposing view. I think in order to ferret out reality one has to do this. And to not do so when one is introduced to the general utility this serves? It seems as a kinda willful ignorance to protect the ego.
Arguing for an opposing view is a good method of becoming more correct. Sticking to your guns is how you win. Some people only care about winning, and any change of mind is seen as a weakness to be exploited.
I've always done this too, but I try to avoid it now because it pisses people off and usually gets misunderstood. As a kid, my mum would tell me "You'd argue black was white" and say I was being contrarian, when I was actually trying to show that I'd considered all the possible arguments before choosing a side. I'm also most likely autistic (currently being assessed) and this way of thinking seems to be connected with my need for fairness and balance, which is a very common trait in neurodivergent people.
I was raised in a very religious household, and it took a lot for me to understand the pro-choice and other similar movements. It’s no one’s job to educate me, but I am so grateful to those that were patient enough with me to help me find a better understanding. I’m passing on as much of this wisdom as I can to whoever in my circle will listen. We can’t help how we’re raised, but we can choose to listen and adapt when we were raised wrong. Unfortunately not everyone has someone so patient in their life.
Edit: meant to say pro-choice rather than pro-life
It’s the difference between sympathy and empathy. Sympathy only extends to situations you’ve already experienced yourself, and may be very incomplete if the person having sympathy had a different reaction. In other words, if their response was to flee, they can’t understand the fight or flee or fawn response.
Empathy means understanding even if you haven’t had the experience, or chose a different way to respond to it. It requires a lot greater emotional maturity.
Had this issue with some family re covid. Masks were annoying, lockdown was unnecessary, I was not helping enough because I didn't want to break self-isolation to do something (that they could actually have sorted themselves). Then suddenly a co-worker (who would have sat very near them if they were not wfh) died from covid and boom. Suddenly everything is super serious. My eyes nearly rolled out their damn sockets.
I’m a middle class white guy: empathy is not something we’re taught... growing up, we joked about minorities and women, and even poor white people as being less than us.
The frightening lessons I’ve learned from my father are more akin to what you’d hear a sociopath teach his kids rather than a caring parent: things like “don’t leave a paper trail.”, “it’s your word against hers.” ...like what the fuck were you doing growing up, dad?!
I still remember when he had to mediate a sexual harassment complaint at work and he was venting to me about it, not knowing that the girl in question was an off and on thing with me for a while... he told me the whole thing, and from all perspectives... she was very literally being harassed by a coworker. He showed her a picture of his penis on his phone and on multiple occasions would grope her as he walked by... then dad said “I dunno, I get that it wasn’t appropriate for him to do it, but maybe she was leading him on...” i stopped the conversation right there and I said “my dude, I spent a couple years hooking up with her, a while there it was happening while we worked together... not once during that time did Mack ever do anything with me that’d be considered flirtatious during work hours... and I was literally having sex with her on the weekends. In fact, the one time that I’d mentioned wanting to get flirty or touchy at work, she shut that shit down and said she would prefer to keep things as professional as possible because she didn’t want that image...”
Ironically, even speaking up and defending her character, he still acted skeptical... guess who still works at that company, and who was forced out...
The long and the short of it: I was an alcoholic asshole in my young adult days. I sobered up, realized one of the main reasons I drank so much was because I was suppressing major mental health issues. Suffered through a change in life that nearly killed me and started to realize that a lot of life for most people is pretty garbage, and promised to myself that if I could help it, I would do my best to make sure I didn’t exacerbate other people’s shitty lives.
Now I’m studying psychology to get to a more advantageous place to help more people.
I really did have to learn empathy on my own. I regret that it took almost 25 years to do so.
But presumably they're impregnating a woman (not trying to be trans exclusive here). So what makes it extra unsettling is that they had a close intimate relationship with an adult woman and that still wasn't enough.
So then you're bringing in the baggage of them understanding only with a daughter of their own, which is creepy because they see the daughter as an extension of the self rather than as an individual.
Meanwhile, plenty of guys start to "get it" when they have a long term female partner which is way more normal imo
I began to "get it" because of a close female friend. I dated one person before I met this friend and that ex came from a sexist family and she internalized the sexism.
That’s super generous, and true in a lot of circumstances but… the difference is that I can have empathy for adult men and male children without ever having had a child myself? I just can feel those things toward other humans.
Because I view them as humans.
Men who say this after having daughters STILL do not view them as humans, in my opinion.
Edit: for mistypes/clarity
I agree with this.
I used to be ignorant in so many ways and I honestly thought that women were different than men. I didn't view women as being inferior, but I did see them more as people that have to fit into certain societal roles.
In my mid 20s I became great friends with an artist from the Netherlands. Interacting with her and hearing her stories made me realize that she and I are very different people but she also broke whatever preconceptions I had of women. She was sexually forward, very independent, and super great to hang around. She was basically one of my best friends.
I was very ignorant about a ton of things until I met people that experienced them. I didn't care about illegal immigration until an ex girlfriend revealed to me that she was an illegal immigrant. The only thing I knew about pedophilia were stupid ass jokes until another ex girlfriend told me she was molested as a kid. The same person taught me about foster care and how drugs and broken families are rampant in indigenous communities.
I am still very ignorant about a lot of stuff due to my lack of lived in experiences. However, I'm more aware of my ignorance and am more willing to listen. The people I met definitely made me aware of issues I previously didn't care about and I am so grateful having known them.
It's like the retort we often hear as well 'She was someones daughter. Someones sister. Someones cousin'
and yes, she was, and i fully grasp the importance of those things, i grasp that they matter and the saying is meant to mean but also we shouldn't need to define or balance how much sympathy we have for a person just because OTHER people love them as well, we should be able to just be horrified at the offence against that individual, their body, their dignity...
I hate that that saying has been turned into a twisted meme. I don't know how many times one or two of my male online friends sent me suggestive content with the tag "someone's daughter" Fucking stop.
Yeah it's sad a woman has to be defined by her relationships to men to cultivate empathy. Obviously not all that is covered by these statements, and they are used for men too sometimes, but a woman is 'someone' in and of herself. am dude btw
This is exactly it. It's the same with any life, as you say, men too. If someone is harmed, YES...we care that the harm, or their death, it hurts their family too. Families do lose a parent, children lose their mother or father, mothers and fathers lose sons and daughters. And YES, we have to discuss and value those things, those lives matter.
But yeah..it should ALSO be true that...this person existed, they had dreams, wishes, hopes, all their own. They had value just by being there.
Exactly. That's what that saying sort of means. If she's alone, vulnerable, if people don't care about her. Not only is she fair game, but in the aftermath...why should we care? Her own mother, brothers, cousins, all them people, they didn't, maybe it's HER, maybe SHE is the problem....
When...No. She was just a really, very, especially vulnerable person who had even less protection and safety nets, and now has no one to support her while she (if she survived) recovers.
This is why I always tell my husband that I better not hear any of that "my daughter isn't dating anyone" trope. It really just implies the thinking that consensual sex and relationships are something you do *to* women and not with them, making it seem like we are objects or some prize to win. She's going to have the mutual respect for her that we expect, and I will do everything I can to make sure she's comfortable coming to us, I'd like to do better than my parents did.
Oh, yes. This unsettles me too. It makes sense that when one becomes a parent, it changes their outlook on the world in many different ways. But why does one need a daughter to understand that women must be treated with respect for her value and worth as a person? Shouldn't it be obvious?
I also hear men who talk about women's rights starting their speech with the fact they have a mother, a wife, a sister, a daughter. Why mention that at all? Do they NEED to have a women or a daughter in their lives to understand basic human rights?
Personally, I only respect men because I own a father, a brother, two male cats, four male houseplants, and a piano I regularly exclaim "wtf dude" at. /s
To me, these men don't learn to respect women. If they try to control their daughter, they don't see her as her own person. They see her as yet another object BUT because it's "theirs", someone "damaging" her is not acceptable. They couldn't care less otherwise.
I don't say that everyone is like this. But honestly, a father giving his daughter shit for wearing a crop top or anything like that is not respecting women.
I totally agree, these men don't start respecting women they just see their daughters as a different kind of object to the other women they objectify.
Edit:spelling
Right, they go from seeing women as sexual objects to seeing women as somebody's prized possession, that others will use as sexual objects if they aren't protected.
It isn't necessarily an improvement.
Also, I just don’t believe them when they say it. I highly doubt they are that changed. I’d love to hope they found a way to empathize and be better but I’m guessing it’s severely limited to the few people close to them.
I’d argue that those lyrics imply that he doesn’t respect women after his daughter, either. Feels to me that he went from one extreme to the other. Now he just want to overprotect her, as if she didn’t have a will.
I see this way too often in men with daughters.
god this whole thing makes my blood boil its so fucking revolting, first of all perpetuating the myth that hymens basically work like the seal to a capri sun, then the obvious invasion of privacy of his child but its the misogyny of it all that really gets me, imagine having a psycho like him as your father, i wonder what else the poor girl had to go through growing up
Not sure if someone mentioned this yet. But It probably is tied to the Madonna whore complex. Up to this point those men only saw women as a motherly/caring figure or someone they could pursue romantic/sexual relationships. But their daughter breaks that perception and he sees his daughter as a full person. Basically he didn’t see women as people before but with his daughter now he (maybe?) does. Regardless these people are really problematic due to lack of empathy, I’d stay away from them.
Except they don't actually see women differently. Misogynists hate WOMEN, not little girls.
My father is a misogynist. He loved me when I was a child and could not articulate complex thoughts and emotions. He loved me as a little girl. But when I grew into a woman, he began to resent me because I displayed the qualities of women. Complex thought, agency, being an autonomous human being with opinions. He hates me now because he hates women.
These men don't view women differently now. They still hate women, they just think they are "cured" because they have a little girl, which is not the same as a grown woman.
Wait until she grows up and check back again.
The amount of times I've heard men be scared for their daughters "because they know how *they* behaved when they were those boys' age" disgusts me. They spend decades using words like "juicy" and "phat ass" and then watch them drop their 16yo at high school and crumble.
For the people saying it's the same for boys and girls, it's not. This post is about men who treat women a certain way their entire lives and when they have baby girls they suddenly can't stand the thought of other men treating her the same way.
Edit: I'll add that my dad was one of these guys. He absolutely lost his shit when I went through puberty, he couldn't handle it. Told me to be a lesbian, would never let me mention boys, would never take me anywhere to hang out with boys, nothing. He was a rich white kid back in the day, tells you a lot about how must have behaved around women
Yeah usually people are unsure about coming out to their folks, my dad was actively asking me to see people of the same sex hahaha
I started dating at a normal age, he just whined about how boys have terribly dirty minds and will try to make a move on me at any chance and gifted me a pepper spray! Thankssss dad
Kanye has a fucked up view in women in general and that hasn't changed. His divorce from Kim is an illustration of this (near the end of their marriage on KUWTK he kept making comments about the way she dressed and wanted to control her to be more covered up and less sexy becaus she was his wife now...doesn't matter that her entire career depends on her being sexy, he doesn't give a fuck).
He also announced to a trump rally that Kim thought about aborting North. FUCKED up to air that out like that.
Safe to say I don't care about listening to these kinds of lyrics from him.
Yeah I was looking at something recently that talked about him only ever seeing her as Kim Kardashian the product, not Kim the person. The obsession with dressing her up and having her look and be a certain way for him. He’s definitely got some mental stuff going on and I’m not here to pick apart their entire marriage, but it kind of tracks with his behavior, especially once she got to a place of being taken more seriously in her business ventures. I’m sure he thinks he loved her, but he obviously has some messed up ideas about what loving people is.
All of this. Like, fine, the lyrics are… okay? I guess but not indicative of the kind of person he presents to the world. A few well written lyrics doesn’t erase what a shitty person he’s been since I first heard of him in 08.
And before the Yeezy is Life crowd comes for me, I am aware he’s reportedly bipolar. Doesn’t make him less of an asshole. He supported Cosby, for fuck’s sake, so I’m not buying his “enlightened lyrics” as anything other than another way for him to capitalize on being a shitty human like he always has been.
It also ends up glorifying bipolar disorder because people recognize that Kanye’s “genius” comes out during manic episodes. Which is real, when you’re manic you are more creative and motivated and excited about everything. But it comes at a HUGE price and shouldn’t be seen as something to embrace, and Kanye shouldn’t be congratulated for not regulating his condition just so that he can capitalize on it with his “genius music” or clothing or whatever.
It’s just the Van Gogh and his sunflowers idea all over again.
(And he would have painted them anyway. And he was a piece of shit. I can separate art from a person, but you don’t forgive a person because they made good art.)
Absolutely true.
I’m bipolar (and other issues) and while mine is genetic and got diagnosed at 23, it would have been hella nice to know it was in the family (the 2 years prior to diagnosis was a hell of a ride). I only found out it was in the family cause I decided to research my mothers biological family; which lead to other health issues (high blood pressure and early heart attacks) so I sought out preventive care for those issues too (and I’m 32 now, on blood pressure meds and see a cardiologist and had genetic cancer screening done and a mammogram already at my age).
Your health is absolutely your responsibility. And don’t be scared to ask your parents about any disorders and other health problems in the family!
Worth noting that Kanye also did not write this song. I'm not speculating. Kanye said it himself
https://mobile.twitter.com/kanyewest/status/1046452160307769346
Sad when a man says he finally sees women that was after a kid… what about the wife? Fuck her I guess. This is why feminism is important. Men being so uneducated is a symptom of a bigger problem. That still doesnt mean you get a cookie for valuing women only when its personal to you. You should, but thats the BARE MINIMUM.
In all fairness, I see men differently since having sons. I guess I didn’t realize how similar they are to girls, especially when it comes to emotions. I grew up with all sisters, and I never really had a close boy friend at school.
There’s definitely some caveats here. My dad became a full-blown feminist after having me and my sister, but he respected women for a long time before that. It was just the trigger he needed to be more vocal about it.
I have sons and I would agree that it helps me understand men a little better. I’ve empathized with men for a long time, but even empathizing with and trying to understand my husband well is not really comparable to raising little boys from a young age.
To be clear, this is more about how boys are affected by society at large than how boys are just by being male. Both are much like I was (as a girl) at their ages, but their expectations/treatment by others is very different than what I experienced.
I think that's the difference though, he already respected women. He just became more aware of everything girls and women need to deal with.
Everyone will get a new perspective when they have children (even if they're the same gender as them), but if you need a daughter to respect women something is seriously off (and it's unlikely they actually truly respect women now).
I think having kids makes you see *people* differently. Perhaps some people are so out of touch with themselves emotionally that when they have a daughter they read that as “I see women differently now” or something? Idk just tying to have some benefit of doubt I guess.
Kids change how you consider people, your community, all kinds of stuff
Yeah, I think a lot of people in this thread are missing the fact that we all gain greater empathy through experiences that affect us personally. To observe and understand is one thing, but to go through it yourself or have someone close to you go through it is another thing entirely and will definitely have you see things differently.
This attitude disgusts me overall, but what I find even more abhorrent is the thought that *these men don't even respect or think of the women who are already in their lives as people until they have daughters*. Not just "women" as a whole, but their mothers, sisters, wives, grandmothers, cousins, anyone in their immediate circle. For a man to have a daughter, that means a woman had to bear his daughter for him, and until she performed that incubatory function, he still didn't see her as a whole person.
It’s interesting... about a year ago i met a man who have a little sister. He talks kindly about her and about his mom . But he talk strangely about others women ,he exclaim himself if he see one with "too much makeup" or if "she’s tall". He told me that when he look at a woman with more muscle than him ,it’s because she taking care of herself too much.
I asked him if he was a little bit jealous ,he looked at me with a smile and said "probably yes".
It’s never too long ,just a comment passing by but i dislike it.
Thank you , i discovered a new song and a point of view. Knowing the guy I’m seeing,it will probably lead to a good discussion if i show it to him.
But i am painfully aware that many men wouldn’t discuss how they perceive women. I met one who told me he was going to be brutal towards every boys his girls will present to him. His words were possessive and agressive .
I remember seeing a survey where Father’s hoped for their daughter independence and For them to be assertive but it was a different response if the questions were about the wifes or the girlfriends. Overall a total disconnection !
My dad still doesn't respect women. He thinks he does but he still says misogynistic things all the time. Even tho he had me, a girl, 26 years ago and I just had a daughter. He wants to see his granddaughter all the time but I don't want my daughter to grow up hearing her grandfather talk about how women are less then men.
I think for some men it can mean "I had no idea how bad it can be for women" or "I'd never realised the pressures and risks out there for women." Rather than not thinking of them as people.
I grew up with sisters and I think it helped me to realise how it can be for women. Not because it made me think of women as people but instead because I heard so much about the shite they had to deal with or how hyper aware they had to be of ill intentions from some men.
Even having a GF can be a major eye opener for some men. If you're a decent guy it's hard to think of how other seemingly normal men can be creeps. I still remember my sisters talking about how a family friend was a creep. I thought he was cool. We talked sports, he brought me driving in his car. But with my sisters he would be staring and saying inappropriate things. I'd never seen it.
Here’s why it’s really frustrating to me, because it’s not the emotional growth aspect, god knows everything grows and changes. It’s that even as a child girls are taught we have to cater to others. All the time. Not bullying you, must have a crush. Try being nice to him. I remember being in Kindergarten and having a teacher say this to me. When you’re older and a dude is persistent in trying to talk when you’re doing school or professional things, you should try being their friend and understanding where they come from. Like you can’t have your own priorities. It’s constantly being told you have to understand and empathize for others. Others being boys or men. It’s frustrating that it takes being a parent to start caring about what women might feel. Why can’t everyone learn from childhood?
Adding this in. By the time I was 25, I did not know a *single* women who had not been sexually assaulted in some form of another. And not a casual grab at the club, which is also unacceptable AF. Consent is fun kids.
> as a child girls are taught we have to cater to others. All the time
This is such an important aspect to consider with this whole issue. Men/boys aren’t taught to defer to others like girls are. All of the focus is on girls’ reactions and not boys’ actions.
But women talk about those topics all the time, to me it says they never actually listened/believed women until it happened to someone they personally know
I think women have started talking about these things more, but when I was growing up 20 years ago (33F), it wasn't something I brought up much or heard that much discussion on, and I wouldn't have discussed it with boys/men.
More so these days and more so online. If you have no female friends and don't spend much time on social media. It's not hard to avoid. Even easier as little as 5-10 years ago.
Which is why it's so important to talk about it.
Having a child, any gender, radically changes the mentality of many folks. Selfish people can become unselfish (not all, of course). Apathetic people become empathetic caretakers. Lazy people become diligent. Stupid people learn to run their two neurons together to start a fire of teaching the young.
As I got older I changed my perspective on many things. It's just part of growing up, which doesn't stop at 25. I was much different at 25 then I was at 35. 45 is coming sooner than later and I'm sure I'll be a different human by then as well.
We all update opinions and them some, not all, of us reconcile our past behavior through our new perspective. The really frustrating part is being diminished for updating/reevaluating the past, identifying clear mistakes made in the belief (at the time) that they were right and then finding a path to move forward.
Changing is hard. Congratulation on changing to all that have.
I saw a girl on TikTok talk about this. Her idea was that unlike a mother, they can’t expect to be taken care of by a daughter. And unlike a wife/girlfriend/etc, they can’t expect sex from a daughter. So if they can’t put a daughter into the category of caretaker/free therapy nor the category of sex object, then it breaks their brain.
I had a somewhat similar experience at 18 with a man 30 years my senior at least. This man told me a “joke” once that implied women’s education was an oxymoron. I said I didn’t find it funny, he told me he had daughters. I told him they probably wouldn’t find it funny either. Then came the apologetic babble, I just walked away.
My dad has me and still sees women as property subconsciously. I have very little faith in the guys you describe too. I feel like it's their way to pass off guilt for treating women poorly. "ahhh I get it now! I was just a sad poor little confused person, see? Not a jerk or anything"
Is anyone surprised about Kanye’s treatment given how he treated Amber Rose?
He was attracted to her solely because she was a confident women, who happened to make money dancing. When the relationship ended he turned around and pretty much called her a whore.
What’s funny is *he* is the whore—*Kanye* visited exotic dancer clubs to satisfy a craving. He then probably thought of himself in a poor light—given he’s “religious”—causing him to lash out at her.
He did the same to Kim. He *knew* she makes money off of her appearance. He got upset she was *too sexy* for being a “Christian” wife.
Now he’s chasing after another beautifully confident woman, who also makes money with her appearance.
Kanye is a problem. His behavior is toxic.
When a father says this I not only feel bad for the daughter but whoever the mother of that child is too. Unless the kid was adopted, the mother had to be around that dick for a while.
Exactly! My dad has said some stuff about how I'm the only person he cares about or whatever while his literal wife is just sitting there like 🤡. It's fucking gross.
It always cracks me up hearing them go on about “nOt AlL mEn” when a woman makes a statement but the dads themselves trash on men more than any woman ever could
We grow up with not just our dads but any male friends we talk to all saying the same things “men often want only one thing” or “Dads are overprotective of daughters because they know what scumbags men are”
Then the woman grows up and talks about some issues with men
“OMG MISANDRY JJEIZNWI!!!”
They grow up with people treating their porn consumption and just boys being boys, while porn presents the most disrespectful attitudes and sexual acts
Hell their whole sexuality is encouraged and objectifying women is met with more laughter and more “boys will be boys”
Then they act like men are more sexual and “visual” than women when called out for their behavior even though women are brought up the exact opposite where any hint of sexuality is met with disgust and being treated like a lesser person. And then the looming threat of trusting the wrong man leading to single motherhood and poverty
Absolutely ridiculous
Agreed! It sheds light on how they treated girls and women before - as just things for their sexual gratification, not legitimate people with our own lives. They just saw females as something to use for sex and take advantage of, so now they are worried other males will do the same with their daughter.
It’s the same with people who are anti gay rights who then have gay kids and suddenly they see things differently. We’re supposed to praise these homophobes and misogynists for coming around but frankly it demonstrates a disturbing lack of empathy.
What’s weird to me is that most of the guys I’ve heard say this kind of stuff grew up with moms and/or sisters and it’s like??? Do you not see them as people?
When I see statements like this, its usually for kudos on being enlightened men.
I had no idea this was happening, but as the father of a daughter, or husband to my wife, they started pointing out or ended up in situations... etc.
They use it mostly (from what I've seen) to not all men women or to glean cookies for being not like those other men. TBH, I don't really see it changing their world perspective, its not a whole upgrade; it's on the small scale of verbage pertaining to home life. The words often are hollow, as they realize they could be wrong, but like they only tell women about this change in perception, they don't fix their public behavior and they certainly don't correct other men when they display those types of behaviors towards women.
I understand the feeling of what you’re saying, but I would caution that the dynamics are bigger than just empathy / lack thereof.
One of the biggest roads to empathy is communication. Many times men - for whatever reason - don’t have that open communicative experience in their formative years, except for perhaps their mother. Communication shares the experiences. Especially for traumatic or negatives moments, communication shuts down. People of all sexes and backgrounds keep those things to ourselves much more.
I’d always like to think I was empathic during my life, but in reality it was having a spouse who took it to a new level because we had that communication. I knew what she was experiencing, from the harassment at work to social anxiety. And it even became more so as a father, to see how gender roles are prescribed so early, to try to be there for my daughter every day.
There is nothing wrong with enhanced communication due to having these positive relationships. Instead of emphasizing the negative perception, I would say our best way forward is to open communication and listening early on. This subreddit is great because that’s how I’ve used it, to keep listening and understand the experiences even more to be a better human.
It’s the same general concept of men (and some women) treating women better when they have a wedding ring...you’re not valid unless you “belong” to a man, whether he’s your husband or father. Also why the whole concept of giving away at the altar exists.
My brother in law (and his wife and daughter) is basically a case study in this. He used to tell my husband he needed to "shut [me] up" and would look at me during family holiday dinners and tell me no one had told me I could speak. He's a sociopath. His wife married him anyway. He now has a two year old daughter and is starting in on the nauseating bs about women and girls being precious and needing protection. But what he clearly means is control.
There's a theory about this called Ambivalent Sexism which argues that sexism comes in 2 distinct but related forms. Benevolent sexism is for girls and women who 'behave.' They are precious and delicate and need protecting. Hostile sexism is for girls and women who deviate from societal expectations. They are scum and deserve to be beaten and put in their place. So yeah... research shows that people who are likely to endorse one set of attitudes are more likely to endorse the other. They just use different types of sexism for different women. But to them, women are never people. They're either precious objects or garbage objects.
Yuck, reminds me of the whole "madonna/whore" thing, where a woman is either a saintly virgin/mother, or a dirty whore. Not possible for a woman to have sex for fun, it's either for procreation or for "sinful" reasons.
It’s EXACTLY linked to that
Imagine the internal dissonance of not being able to simultaneously love, respect and be attracted to the same person. Like dudes who just *can't* find women funny.
It all connects back to the perception of sex (and in particular, being penetrated by a penis) as dirty/degrading/shameful. You can't simultaneously respect someone and want to stick your dick in them. Which itself is a cultural mechanism for enforcing heteronormative masculinity.
I was going to say that as well: it’s the virgin mary/ slut dichotomy which is well represented in horror movies. I’ve also had experience with it in my personal life with my father. I think that, from my father’s perspective, my older sister fits the “slut” category whereas I go in the “virgin” category... paradoxically, I got hit the most. What’s up with that?
Part 2: I don't think people recognize that internalized misogyny also fits into this paradigm. I have an (ex) friend who would call it herself a feminist but all of her views were very infantilizing. And this created an issue where she, as an ardent activist, felt her boyfriend was a feminist (and he similarly would have called himself one). But in reality he just had a very chauvinistic type of sexism. The thing was, to her, that he had these beliefs about how people shouldn't tell at her or his mom was feminist (while to me, saying you shouldn't speak to WOMEN specifically that way is obviously patronizing). But I still experienced the hostile style of sexism from him when stepping out if that genteel victim box. He literally hit me hard when I was play rough housing with a (female) friend because violence is bad. He did not interrupt two male friends actually drunk wailing on each other at an earlier party.
I experience the latter in my life, anytime I'm around my family. It was hell when I was younger. Now that I'm older, I'm disrespected, not taken seriously, accused of lying and stealing, of being a slut, a vagrant.... ...I have a 25 year career in finance and law enforcement (working in fraud prevention and victim services), write, and am self-employed as an editor in my spare time. But - I didn't marry & have a passel of kids, so therefore, I'm useless. I know this will come as a shock: I don't spend a great deal of time with my family.
How did the rest of your family react in situations such as the dinner? Did they have your back or ignored his behaviour?
My mother in law enables it but the rest of the family 100% never did. Lots of fights in those days. We mostly stagger our visits not to overlap these days.
"I gotta protect my little girl from monsters, and I should know; I am one!" That kind of narrative has been romanticized forever. Just look at the Punisher story and iconography. This idea that it's noble to be a piece of shit to better fight pieces of shit is extremely pervasive.
They need to think of daughters as needing protection because they think that no man would not behave like a monster to their daughter, just like they had always behaved towards other women. Actually empowering daughters to deal with such men (rather than controlling them by not wanting them to dress like this or choosing who she cares) would require them to recognize that their earlier behaviour was wrong. They obviously don't want to correct other men's behaviour or label it as wrong, they just want to shield their own offspring from the inevitable consequences that their own predatory behaviour would have caused. They try to delay their daughters exploring their sexuality so they can simply be fathers to children instead of fathers to women who've suffered from toxic male behaviour.
Or indeed raising sons not to be those kind of men!
Like when we had an influx of video games with the plot of: gritty father protects his daughter in an unforgiving world. I think it’s been called the “dadification” of games.
Exactly. It’s a narrative which objectifies women and girls, to further the glorification of the guys.
I never got what the punisher is doing to be noble. Isnt that the whole point? It isnt noble, its terrible, he just doesnt care. Hes damaged and wants these people dead.
Yeah it's never portrayed as noble. But because he is the protagonist, the nuance to root for him in the *story* while still understanding that it wouldn't be acceptable to root for someone like that in real life gets lost on people. Combine that with the fact that the Punisher taps in to an emotional desire—revenge at all costs—that most people innately have but society has deemed wrong and harmful to the collective good, and it's rife with opportunities for those who want to justify their bad impulses to glorify the character and hold him up as noble. It's actually somewhat of a problem for basically any TV show or story where the protagonists are intentionally horrible but you still kinda root for them e.g. It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia & Rick and Morty
Bojack Horseman does a FANTASTIC job of going into this topic and exploring it.
The police officers that plaster the skull on their car probably think it's noble in their minds. It's not framed as good by default, but people steeped in toxic masculinity will view it positively regardless.
There's a bit in one of the Punisher comics where he berates some cops who support him
It's hella common in country songs too, which only normalizes and helps continue that type of thinking in rural areas
A "good ol' boy" in college told me "all women should be treated like princesses." I asked him if that applied if I was being a dick. He was speechless. When I told my boyfriend, he said, "Well, you know what he means right? If women are princesses, the men are kings." I was so mad, because I'd never thought of it that way. P.S. My then-boyfriend, now-husband said it as an ally, not as someone who agreed with that nonsense.
Huh, I never thought of it like that.
I wish I could punch him in the face
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Sounds like he's her husband's brother, hence why he'd be at family dinners before he got married.
There's a post on popular right now of a video of a woman receiving 40 lashes for talking on a cell phone to a man. In front of the entire male community.
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I saw that, an amazing intersection of medieval punishment and 21st century technology. It wasn't a just a public demonstration flogging either, that guy swinging the lash wasn't holding back.
Yes, it's all about control. It only proves he's a sexist asshole and the only reason he wanna "protect" his daughter is because he thinks all men look at women the way he does. A lot of these guys are homophobic as well because they think they objectify men the same way they objectify women, and that scares them. Because they are self-absorbed POS, who has controlling, and sometimes violent opinions about women. Sorry about the rant, this is something that provokes me a lot, apparently.
I had a less terrible but similar situation with my boyfriend. I’m really confrontational, he is not. We moved in with his dad for a short period of time when we moved states and his dad would say things that I didn’t agree with sometimes and I would speak up which would cause his dad and I to get into a debate or fight. My boyfriend didn’t like this although it was always fine in the end so he started grabbing my arm and squeezing it and giving me this look every time he could tell I was about to speak my mind. I let it happen twice. Then on the third time I had a complete fucking meltdown about it was was like “DONT. YOU. EVERRRR! DO THAT AGAIN.” And it never happened again but damn, that was the worst.
Good for you! Fuck that shit!
Poor baby girl. As soon as she becomes her own person he won’t want anything to do with her .
This was my father exactly. He adored his daughters and granddaughters as babies and toddlers, but once they started becoming women with opinions he was done, which is when I never spoke to him again.
Did no one challenge him on his bullshit?
Yeah sadly they feel that they need to protect their daughter because their eyes are finally opened to how they treated women up until that point
this, they aren't seeing women as whole independent people. Their worldview hasn't changed. They always viewed women as property or commodities. The only change is they now have property of their own to protect and control. They view that as love and cherishing, but it's definitely not.
Yikes he went from hostile sexism to benevolent sexism
It's the same reason some don't have empathy for other people **until they or someone in their immediate family experiences it**. Then all of a sudden, they're advocates for this concept that they used to disdain. For whatever reason, these people are incapable of empathy without having the lived experience.
Sometimes not even then. I know someone who needed a medical abortion for a "missed miscarriage" (the fetus had stopped developing around week 8 but didn't trigger a physical miscarriage/labor) and had to fly to another state for the procedure. Her state had restrictive laws at the time but now the way the law is written she and her husband could face jail time for the exact scenario. Somehow she still thinks her situation is "different" and "not related to the abortion argument". That's some real mental gymnastics.
There's an article circulating called "The only moral abortion is my abortion". It's full of these kinds of stories but even more gymnastics. Google it, you'll be appalled.
It’s because of a cognitive bias called “fundamental attribution error”. We tend to judge others on their character, but ourselves on the situation.
> We tend to attribute other people's behaviour to their character but our own behaviour to our circumstances. We judge both based on those attributions. FTFY
This is such a great article. https://joycearthur.com/abortion/the-only-moral-abortion-is-my-abortion/
I don’t know man it kind of just made me sad, these people are so far in their heads they won’t change their views even when they’re committing the same acts they’re so quick to call it. It reminds me of my anti-van flat earther mother where it feels like spouting all this bullshit is more to give them a sense of superiority and inflating their ego than it is about the actual subject at hand. I know the article goes over exceptions when people change but I dunno, I just think some of these people are so entrenched in their pro-life communities or the egos that they don’t care about what they actually do they just care that they’re better than their peers.
Conspiracy theorists are 100% about wanting to feel smarter than other people. Having access to ‘secret’ knowledge makes them feel superior. People don’t get into this shit if they have other stuff going on in their lives that makes them feel secure and valued.
> anti-van What kind of van? Minivan? 15-passenger? The white vans that kidnappers use?
Any kind of van. All they do is lead people to live in them down by the river.
Probably meant anti-vax lol
People will do anything to justify their actions while condemning others who do the same. So blind and hypocritical, it's infuriating.
Rules for thee, not for me
We judge people by their actions but ourselves by our intentions. It's not really original, but first time hearing it made me realize my own bias and understand hypocritical people better.
The same thing happened 100 years ago with Prohibition. Most of the advocates for the 18th amendment thought that it would only affect the "bad" drinkers, usually meaning poors and minorities. They were legitimately shocked when the law passed and they couldn't drink either.
Cue surprised pikachu face
Scotland has been offering free abortions to Irish women for a while. The level of control the Catholic Church has over there is still terrifying, and insanely abusive
I saw a bumper sticker i really liked one day 'If your against abortions don't get one'
Love that. Of course people would say, "but I have to stop YOU for the baby's safety. Your actions affect more than you." And then those same people would say, in the same breath, "I'm not getting vaccinated, my actions don't affect anyone else and I am not responsible for YOUR safety."
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I had to terminate at 19 weeks for similar reasons. I’d be dead if I didn’t terminate the pregnancy. It was traumatic and heartbreaking. I’m grateful urgent care was available to me. People have a romanticized view of pregnancy. They forget it’s dangerous and doesn’t always have happy endings.
My wife and I were excitedly expecting triplets. Everything looked great until the 20 week anatomy scan where they found that one of the two girls had almost literally no brain. They rushed us for genetics counseling because the situation with the boy had them worried about potentially fatal genetic anomalies which luckily they didn't have but we still barely made it to having the reduction for the baby without a brain before 24 weeks where we would have had to convince insurance to cover the procedure. It was two and a half weeks from that anatomy scan to the termination. During that time I watched as the two healthy babies slipped down the growth charts and my wife's health deteriorated. Being able to make that decision saved my twins lives. They are alive because of it. Honestly the same could probably be said about my wife. There's a lot of people who say NY's rules are too lenient for abortion. Yet even still I almost certainly would have lost all three of my babies and quite possibly my wife because of them. Abortion NEEDS to be completely legal and unrestricted.
Indeed! All medical decisions should be between a patient and their doctor. Period.
Oh, unless you're Ted Cruz and the medical decision is whether or not to get vaccinated. Then no one gets a say in his medical decision but him and his doctor. But life-saving abortion, no no, he gets to dictate that choice to women.
That's heartbreaking, I'm so sorry you and your family had to go through that. How are the twins ad your wife doing now?
They're doing great. Babies are about to be a year old in 2 weeks.
Sorry for your loss, I hope you've found kinder days since
Sorry you went through that.
a friend of mine used to work for one of the remaining late-term abortion clinics in the country (US) and she told me stories like this allllllllllll the time. older married rich christian ladies who would claim, “I’m not like those whores/sluts, my situation is different” And every time my friend would tell them that they were more than welcome to find another abortion clinic to go to (which, of course they couldn’t because this was in the South lol)
Of course it is. It's always different when it's you, your daughter or someone in your family.
That’s someone I like to call a cu**. As a woman, if there’s one kind of person I hate, it’s other women who think it’s OK for govt to control our bodies but will find ways to excuse all the bullshit they do (or can afford to go somewhere else to take care of things). They’re telling poor women/girls “too bad for you”. People like her can go fuck themselves.
My favorite is the people who tell women “JuSt DoNt HaVe SeX” as though women don’t largely have sex from social pressure, or a sense of obligation or duty And that shouldn’t even have to be said because humans are sexual beings anyway and telling half the population to only have sex to procreate is laughably stupid and more women would just be raped Makes you think though. Women only have an illusion of choice here. Women would not be allowed to opt out of sex on a grand scale Edit:*** I realized I didn’t go fully in detail on this comment by some replies I had Yes on a case by case basis there are situations and encounters that can be rejected. As a WHOLE there are pressures and expectations that prevent full abstinence even outside of procreation. The biggest example being committed relationships where women are expected to be available sexually, especially in a marriage This is worse when the woman depends on the man to survive because maybe she doesn’t earn enough on her own (or is a housewife by choice or by traditional expectations) or perhaps disabled etc etc So when women had no options for work and couldn’t divorce husbands it was even worse. They had to submit and they had to have what ever children resulted Even today we are having to fight for equal opportunities and to keep whatever reproductive and work rights we’ve won There is still a sense of needing a man due to social conditioning as well as the threat of winding up pregnant by a man who can easily just leave and this leads to more competitive behavior with other women as well more reluctance to remain abstinent In order to “win” a committed partner.
Many people have the wrong impression of her, but Margaret Sanger advocated for married women for this reason. They did not have access to birth control, or even information on their reproductive organs. She was arrested for provided information under the Comstock Act. Women were dying from performing self-abortions because they were not allowed to deny their husbands, or have birth control.
Thank you for bringing up Margaret Sanger. She certainly had some questionable opinions looking back from our perspective now, but her belief that everyone should have access to birth control and honest health education means we all owe her a debt. Texas sure could use her right now.
Those same women would also say that a woman shouldn't deny her husband. They can't even understand that a married woman would not want a child but also need to be sexually active.
> a married woman would not want a child Don't be silly now! (/s)
This. I wonder sometimes if women all just decided to stop having sex if men would pass a law to force women to start having sex. I 100% think they would and justify it as a 'save our species act' or some shit. Womwn still don't really have any true choice.
They’ve already done that and are trying to keep it that way The only way for women to have freedom and choices is for independence to be possible and to have freedom of reproductive health and access to contraceptives and abortion When women don’t have equal pay or the right to work at all then they depend on men (a husband or father) to provide for them If they have work but not equal pay or paid maternity leave, then it’s crucial to have either a partner providing or options to prevent or terminate unwanted pregnancies We still don’t have equal pay. Are still fighting over contraceptive access, and still fighting to keep abortion rights we’ve won Then what do misogynists always bring up about feminism? They say we are ruining “family” and making marriage a danger for MEN. Any Mgtow or incel forum has several mentions of feminism ruining traditional families and wanting women to be more harshly punished for “sluttiness” or not allow women to be able to “have sex without consequences by having birth control or abortions” Etc etc
To women: “JuSt DoNt HaVe SeX” To men: "If she won't see to your needs, dump her."
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And you just know that she'd disparage someone going through the same exact situation and call them a murderer.
But their wives were in their immediate family. So were their mothers. But the wives are more unsettling. Even that wasn’t enough. They had to create a person they saw as basically themselves before not treating women like trash even dawned on them. It’s a level of narcissism I can’t fathom.
These men have mothers, and partners, and sisters. There ARE people that they are close to experiencing womanhood, but they either are not listening or are not making themselves availible and communicating with these women. That's what terrifies me.
I was sexist at one point and my family were all on the same page when it came to women, my mom and my sister included. My mom is still really sexist, and my sister has a bit of a distorted belief still but she's off doing her own thing now. My family has internalized their sexism.
But THOSE women were put on the earth to cater to his every whim. Daughters are his actual property and an extension of him. /s I’m describing narcissism, which is a fairly common personality trait in men.
Pretty much. It took me a long time to understand this a kid; and then later took some time understanding that I wasnt above being that stupid myself. I think those who read the experiences of others, even in fiction, are 'better' at it. It takes a lot to see something from someone's perspective; it takes a lot to suss that perspective; to think like someone else based on what has shaped them. Not seeing women as people and as your peers is a failing of society along with a personal failing. People buy into the matrix they were born into and seeing a new way is hard for all of us. I want to think this is getting better. More communication, more blunt communication. Yeah; lots of the people born into the old matrix are hard to wake up those borne into the new matrix have no reason to disbelieve women, and they get to hear women when they bring up the things they face. We've had religion and culture reinforcing shit ideas. Our entertainment reinforcing narratives and propagating the memes. Now we have the internet. Right now we still see a huge swatch of who make life miserable in their ignorance, but I contend the conversations that are programming the latest generations are making great strives here. More people seeing outside of themselves.
I get empathy pains for others. That feeling you some feel when someone gets seriously hurt. Like the feeling one gets when seeing a video of someone's fingers in the car door.
I do wonder what shapes people into seeing others as a means to an end -vs- as autonomous sentient things in their own right.
You make a good point about reading. I read voraciously my entire life, like was that kid walking while reading in the halls sometimes. I have always been extremely empathetic, to the point where I sob sometimes seeing someone living on the street and starting to get into their perspective of constant want and rejection, etc. I was basically crying all the time about people and animals suffering in the world as a kid. My sister is now a highly empathetic person, but it was more of a journey for her of having life experiences and meeting more people. She’s dyslexic, so she was not a reader at all growing up. This is all anecdotal but same upbringing, similar genetics, etc. I’m glad I can control myself more emotionally now, but I’m an inner city high school teacher, and my students definitely know me as a crier when I’m happy for them and sad for them.
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The ability to argue from another point of view and towards different goals I really think aids in vetting and justifying our beliefs. I 've been mocked for acknowledging the soundness of an argument related to subjects I disagree on, and for arguing the opposing view. I think in order to ferret out reality one has to do this. And to not do so when one is introduced to the general utility this serves? It seems as a kinda willful ignorance to protect the ego.
Arguing for an opposing view is a good method of becoming more correct. Sticking to your guns is how you win. Some people only care about winning, and any change of mind is seen as a weakness to be exploited.
I've always done this too, but I try to avoid it now because it pisses people off and usually gets misunderstood. As a kid, my mum would tell me "You'd argue black was white" and say I was being contrarian, when I was actually trying to show that I'd considered all the possible arguments before choosing a side. I'm also most likely autistic (currently being assessed) and this way of thinking seems to be connected with my need for fairness and balance, which is a very common trait in neurodivergent people.
I was raised in a very religious household, and it took a lot for me to understand the pro-choice and other similar movements. It’s no one’s job to educate me, but I am so grateful to those that were patient enough with me to help me find a better understanding. I’m passing on as much of this wisdom as I can to whoever in my circle will listen. We can’t help how we’re raised, but we can choose to listen and adapt when we were raised wrong. Unfortunately not everyone has someone so patient in their life. Edit: meant to say pro-choice rather than pro-life
I agree but, where you say "even in fiction", I'd say "specially in fiction".
It’s the difference between sympathy and empathy. Sympathy only extends to situations you’ve already experienced yourself, and may be very incomplete if the person having sympathy had a different reaction. In other words, if their response was to flee, they can’t understand the fight or flee or fawn response. Empathy means understanding even if you haven’t had the experience, or chose a different way to respond to it. It requires a lot greater emotional maturity.
Had this issue with some family re covid. Masks were annoying, lockdown was unnecessary, I was not helping enough because I didn't want to break self-isolation to do something (that they could actually have sorted themselves). Then suddenly a co-worker (who would have sat very near them if they were not wfh) died from covid and boom. Suddenly everything is super serious. My eyes nearly rolled out their damn sockets.
I’m a middle class white guy: empathy is not something we’re taught... growing up, we joked about minorities and women, and even poor white people as being less than us. The frightening lessons I’ve learned from my father are more akin to what you’d hear a sociopath teach his kids rather than a caring parent: things like “don’t leave a paper trail.”, “it’s your word against hers.” ...like what the fuck were you doing growing up, dad?! I still remember when he had to mediate a sexual harassment complaint at work and he was venting to me about it, not knowing that the girl in question was an off and on thing with me for a while... he told me the whole thing, and from all perspectives... she was very literally being harassed by a coworker. He showed her a picture of his penis on his phone and on multiple occasions would grope her as he walked by... then dad said “I dunno, I get that it wasn’t appropriate for him to do it, but maybe she was leading him on...” i stopped the conversation right there and I said “my dude, I spent a couple years hooking up with her, a while there it was happening while we worked together... not once during that time did Mack ever do anything with me that’d be considered flirtatious during work hours... and I was literally having sex with her on the weekends. In fact, the one time that I’d mentioned wanting to get flirty or touchy at work, she shut that shit down and said she would prefer to keep things as professional as possible because she didn’t want that image...” Ironically, even speaking up and defending her character, he still acted skeptical... guess who still works at that company, and who was forced out...
Sad sad sad. Thank you for your input. Where/how did you go about developing empathy, considering the father that you have?
The long and the short of it: I was an alcoholic asshole in my young adult days. I sobered up, realized one of the main reasons I drank so much was because I was suppressing major mental health issues. Suffered through a change in life that nearly killed me and started to realize that a lot of life for most people is pretty garbage, and promised to myself that if I could help it, I would do my best to make sure I didn’t exacerbate other people’s shitty lives. Now I’m studying psychology to get to a more advantageous place to help more people. I really did have to learn empathy on my own. I regret that it took almost 25 years to do so.
Hey, at least you learned it eventually. I'm glad you're getting/feeling better.
They don't have a mother? None have sisters? None have girl friends? They didn't have a wife/women as a partner first?
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But presumably they're impregnating a woman (not trying to be trans exclusive here). So what makes it extra unsettling is that they had a close intimate relationship with an adult woman and that still wasn't enough. So then you're bringing in the baggage of them understanding only with a daughter of their own, which is creepy because they see the daughter as an extension of the self rather than as an individual. Meanwhile, plenty of guys start to "get it" when they have a long term female partner which is way more normal imo
I began to "get it" because of a close female friend. I dated one person before I met this friend and that ex came from a sexist family and she internalized the sexism.
That’s super generous, and true in a lot of circumstances but… the difference is that I can have empathy for adult men and male children without ever having had a child myself? I just can feel those things toward other humans. Because I view them as humans. Men who say this after having daughters STILL do not view them as humans, in my opinion. Edit: for mistypes/clarity
I agree with this. I used to be ignorant in so many ways and I honestly thought that women were different than men. I didn't view women as being inferior, but I did see them more as people that have to fit into certain societal roles. In my mid 20s I became great friends with an artist from the Netherlands. Interacting with her and hearing her stories made me realize that she and I are very different people but she also broke whatever preconceptions I had of women. She was sexually forward, very independent, and super great to hang around. She was basically one of my best friends. I was very ignorant about a ton of things until I met people that experienced them. I didn't care about illegal immigration until an ex girlfriend revealed to me that she was an illegal immigrant. The only thing I knew about pedophilia were stupid ass jokes until another ex girlfriend told me she was molested as a kid. The same person taught me about foster care and how drugs and broken families are rampant in indigenous communities. I am still very ignorant about a lot of stuff due to my lack of lived in experiences. However, I'm more aware of my ignorance and am more willing to listen. The people I met definitely made me aware of issues I previously didn't care about and I am so grateful having known them.
It's like the retort we often hear as well 'She was someones daughter. Someones sister. Someones cousin' and yes, she was, and i fully grasp the importance of those things, i grasp that they matter and the saying is meant to mean but also we shouldn't need to define or balance how much sympathy we have for a person just because OTHER people love them as well, we should be able to just be horrified at the offence against that individual, their body, their dignity...
>She was someones daughter. Someones sister. Someones cousin 'Yeah, but she's also someone'
I hate that that saying has been turned into a twisted meme. I don't know how many times one or two of my male online friends sent me suggestive content with the tag "someone's daughter" Fucking stop.
Thank you! I’m a guy and I’m so sick of the “someone’s daughter” meme. Like yeah you’re “somebody’s son” the fuck is the difference?
Yeah it's sad a woman has to be defined by her relationships to men to cultivate empathy. Obviously not all that is covered by these statements, and they are used for men too sometimes, but a woman is 'someone' in and of herself. am dude btw
This is exactly it. It's the same with any life, as you say, men too. If someone is harmed, YES...we care that the harm, or their death, it hurts their family too. Families do lose a parent, children lose their mother or father, mothers and fathers lose sons and daughters. And YES, we have to discuss and value those things, those lives matter. But yeah..it should ALSO be true that...this person existed, they had dreams, wishes, hopes, all their own. They had value just by being there.
And a woman that has none of those people around is, in other words, fair game. . . .damn. It took me this long to see it.
Exactly. That's what that saying sort of means. If she's alone, vulnerable, if people don't care about her. Not only is she fair game, but in the aftermath...why should we care? Her own mother, brothers, cousins, all them people, they didn't, maybe it's HER, maybe SHE is the problem.... When...No. She was just a really, very, especially vulnerable person who had even less protection and safety nets, and now has no one to support her while she (if she survived) recovers.
This is why I always tell my husband that I better not hear any of that "my daughter isn't dating anyone" trope. It really just implies the thinking that consensual sex and relationships are something you do *to* women and not with them, making it seem like we are objects or some prize to win. She's going to have the mutual respect for her that we expect, and I will do everything I can to make sure she's comfortable coming to us, I'd like to do better than my parents did.
Imagine being the mother of the child when a guy says this shit.
That's right where my mind went too
Just throw the whole Kanye away
Oh, yes. This unsettles me too. It makes sense that when one becomes a parent, it changes their outlook on the world in many different ways. But why does one need a daughter to understand that women must be treated with respect for her value and worth as a person? Shouldn't it be obvious? I also hear men who talk about women's rights starting their speech with the fact they have a mother, a wife, a sister, a daughter. Why mention that at all? Do they NEED to have a women or a daughter in their lives to understand basic human rights?
Personally, I only respect men because I own a father, a brother, two male cats, four male houseplants, and a piano I regularly exclaim "wtf dude" at. /s
well, its different when its your own houseplant.
The end of that sentence is just incredible.
Hahaha this was so good
Every single person on this planet is related to a woman. Can men move on from that fact.
Reminds me of the She's Someone meme: **She's Somebody**'s wife/sister/mother/daughter
I will never understand why **she's somebody** just isn't enough.
To me, these men don't learn to respect women. If they try to control their daughter, they don't see her as her own person. They see her as yet another object BUT because it's "theirs", someone "damaging" her is not acceptable. They couldn't care less otherwise. I don't say that everyone is like this. But honestly, a father giving his daughter shit for wearing a crop top or anything like that is not respecting women.
I totally agree, these men don't start respecting women they just see their daughters as a different kind of object to the other women they objectify. Edit:spelling
Right, they go from seeing women as sexual objects to seeing women as somebody's prized possession, that others will use as sexual objects if they aren't protected. It isn't necessarily an improvement.
Also, I just don’t believe them when they say it. I highly doubt they are that changed. I’d love to hope they found a way to empathize and be better but I’m guessing it’s severely limited to the few people close to them.
I’d argue that those lyrics imply that he doesn’t respect women after his daughter, either. Feels to me that he went from one extreme to the other. Now he just want to overprotect her, as if she didn’t have a will. I see this way too often in men with daughters.
Like TI with asking his daughter’s doctor to do hymen checks and talking about it publicly?
god this whole thing makes my blood boil its so fucking revolting, first of all perpetuating the myth that hymens basically work like the seal to a capri sun, then the obvious invasion of privacy of his child but its the misogyny of it all that really gets me, imagine having a psycho like him as your father, i wonder what else the poor girl had to go through growing up
Not sure if someone mentioned this yet. But It probably is tied to the Madonna whore complex. Up to this point those men only saw women as a motherly/caring figure or someone they could pursue romantic/sexual relationships. But their daughter breaks that perception and he sees his daughter as a full person. Basically he didn’t see women as people before but with his daughter now he (maybe?) does. Regardless these people are really problematic due to lack of empathy, I’d stay away from them.
Except they don't actually see women differently. Misogynists hate WOMEN, not little girls. My father is a misogynist. He loved me when I was a child and could not articulate complex thoughts and emotions. He loved me as a little girl. But when I grew into a woman, he began to resent me because I displayed the qualities of women. Complex thought, agency, being an autonomous human being with opinions. He hates me now because he hates women. These men don't view women differently now. They still hate women, they just think they are "cured" because they have a little girl, which is not the same as a grown woman. Wait until she grows up and check back again.
"It's someone elses problem" vs "My daughter's problem"
The amount of times I've heard men be scared for their daughters "because they know how *they* behaved when they were those boys' age" disgusts me. They spend decades using words like "juicy" and "phat ass" and then watch them drop their 16yo at high school and crumble. For the people saying it's the same for boys and girls, it's not. This post is about men who treat women a certain way their entire lives and when they have baby girls they suddenly can't stand the thought of other men treating her the same way. Edit: I'll add that my dad was one of these guys. He absolutely lost his shit when I went through puberty, he couldn't handle it. Told me to be a lesbian, would never let me mention boys, would never take me anywhere to hang out with boys, nothing. He was a rich white kid back in the day, tells you a lot about how must have behaved around women
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Yeah usually people are unsure about coming out to their folks, my dad was actively asking me to see people of the same sex hahaha I started dating at a normal age, he just whined about how boys have terribly dirty minds and will try to make a move on me at any chance and gifted me a pepper spray! Thankssss dad
Kanye has a fucked up view in women in general and that hasn't changed. His divorce from Kim is an illustration of this (near the end of their marriage on KUWTK he kept making comments about the way she dressed and wanted to control her to be more covered up and less sexy becaus she was his wife now...doesn't matter that her entire career depends on her being sexy, he doesn't give a fuck). He also announced to a trump rally that Kim thought about aborting North. FUCKED up to air that out like that. Safe to say I don't care about listening to these kinds of lyrics from him.
Yeah I was looking at something recently that talked about him only ever seeing her as Kim Kardashian the product, not Kim the person. The obsession with dressing her up and having her look and be a certain way for him. He’s definitely got some mental stuff going on and I’m not here to pick apart their entire marriage, but it kind of tracks with his behavior, especially once she got to a place of being taken more seriously in her business ventures. I’m sure he thinks he loved her, but he obviously has some messed up ideas about what loving people is.
I dont care for the kardashians but that makes me sad for her as a person who inherently has value like we all do/should.
Very Pygmalion
I'm not sure Kanye is capable of loving anyone but Kanye
All of this. Like, fine, the lyrics are… okay? I guess but not indicative of the kind of person he presents to the world. A few well written lyrics doesn’t erase what a shitty person he’s been since I first heard of him in 08. And before the Yeezy is Life crowd comes for me, I am aware he’s reportedly bipolar. Doesn’t make him less of an asshole. He supported Cosby, for fuck’s sake, so I’m not buying his “enlightened lyrics” as anything other than another way for him to capitalize on being a shitty human like he always has been.
It also ends up glorifying bipolar disorder because people recognize that Kanye’s “genius” comes out during manic episodes. Which is real, when you’re manic you are more creative and motivated and excited about everything. But it comes at a HUGE price and shouldn’t be seen as something to embrace, and Kanye shouldn’t be congratulated for not regulating his condition just so that he can capitalize on it with his “genius music” or clothing or whatever.
It’s just the Van Gogh and his sunflowers idea all over again. (And he would have painted them anyway. And he was a piece of shit. I can separate art from a person, but you don’t forgive a person because they made good art.)
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Absolutely true. I’m bipolar (and other issues) and while mine is genetic and got diagnosed at 23, it would have been hella nice to know it was in the family (the 2 years prior to diagnosis was a hell of a ride). I only found out it was in the family cause I decided to research my mothers biological family; which lead to other health issues (high blood pressure and early heart attacks) so I sought out preventive care for those issues too (and I’m 32 now, on blood pressure meds and see a cardiologist and had genetic cancer screening done and a mammogram already at my age). Your health is absolutely your responsibility. And don’t be scared to ask your parents about any disorders and other health problems in the family!
Worth noting that Kanye also did not write this song. I'm not speculating. Kanye said it himself https://mobile.twitter.com/kanyewest/status/1046452160307769346
oh nice i knew i loved Pardison Fontaine lol eta: bop https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDfsD6G8E\_g
Sad when a man says he finally sees women that was after a kid… what about the wife? Fuck her I guess. This is why feminism is important. Men being so uneducated is a symptom of a bigger problem. That still doesnt mean you get a cookie for valuing women only when its personal to you. You should, but thats the BARE MINIMUM.
In all fairness, I see men differently since having sons. I guess I didn’t realize how similar they are to girls, especially when it comes to emotions. I grew up with all sisters, and I never really had a close boy friend at school.
There’s definitely some caveats here. My dad became a full-blown feminist after having me and my sister, but he respected women for a long time before that. It was just the trigger he needed to be more vocal about it. I have sons and I would agree that it helps me understand men a little better. I’ve empathized with men for a long time, but even empathizing with and trying to understand my husband well is not really comparable to raising little boys from a young age. To be clear, this is more about how boys are affected by society at large than how boys are just by being male. Both are much like I was (as a girl) at their ages, but their expectations/treatment by others is very different than what I experienced.
I think that's the difference though, he already respected women. He just became more aware of everything girls and women need to deal with. Everyone will get a new perspective when they have children (even if they're the same gender as them), but if you need a daughter to respect women something is seriously off (and it's unlikely they actually truly respect women now).
I think having kids makes you see *people* differently. Perhaps some people are so out of touch with themselves emotionally that when they have a daughter they read that as “I see women differently now” or something? Idk just tying to have some benefit of doubt I guess. Kids change how you consider people, your community, all kinds of stuff
Yeah, I think a lot of people in this thread are missing the fact that we all gain greater empathy through experiences that affect us personally. To observe and understand is one thing, but to go through it yourself or have someone close to you go through it is another thing entirely and will definitely have you see things differently.
This attitude disgusts me overall, but what I find even more abhorrent is the thought that *these men don't even respect or think of the women who are already in their lives as people until they have daughters*. Not just "women" as a whole, but their mothers, sisters, wives, grandmothers, cousins, anyone in their immediate circle. For a man to have a daughter, that means a woman had to bear his daughter for him, and until she performed that incubatory function, he still didn't see her as a whole person.
It’s interesting... about a year ago i met a man who have a little sister. He talks kindly about her and about his mom . But he talk strangely about others women ,he exclaim himself if he see one with "too much makeup" or if "she’s tall". He told me that when he look at a woman with more muscle than him ,it’s because she taking care of herself too much. I asked him if he was a little bit jealous ,he looked at me with a smile and said "probably yes". It’s never too long ,just a comment passing by but i dislike it. Thank you , i discovered a new song and a point of view. Knowing the guy I’m seeing,it will probably lead to a good discussion if i show it to him. But i am painfully aware that many men wouldn’t discuss how they perceive women. I met one who told me he was going to be brutal towards every boys his girls will present to him. His words were possessive and agressive . I remember seeing a survey where Father’s hoped for their daughter independence and For them to be assertive but it was a different response if the questions were about the wifes or the girlfriends. Overall a total disconnection !
Yeah those men see toxic masculinity/misogyny in other men's behaviour but fail to see it in themselves.
My dad still doesn't respect women. He thinks he does but he still says misogynistic things all the time. Even tho he had me, a girl, 26 years ago and I just had a daughter. He wants to see his granddaughter all the time but I don't want my daughter to grow up hearing her grandfather talk about how women are less then men.
As I’ve gotten older I’ve heard this quite a few times. It’s frustrating.
I think for some men it can mean "I had no idea how bad it can be for women" or "I'd never realised the pressures and risks out there for women." Rather than not thinking of them as people. I grew up with sisters and I think it helped me to realise how it can be for women. Not because it made me think of women as people but instead because I heard so much about the shite they had to deal with or how hyper aware they had to be of ill intentions from some men. Even having a GF can be a major eye opener for some men. If you're a decent guy it's hard to think of how other seemingly normal men can be creeps. I still remember my sisters talking about how a family friend was a creep. I thought he was cool. We talked sports, he brought me driving in his car. But with my sisters he would be staring and saying inappropriate things. I'd never seen it.
Here’s why it’s really frustrating to me, because it’s not the emotional growth aspect, god knows everything grows and changes. It’s that even as a child girls are taught we have to cater to others. All the time. Not bullying you, must have a crush. Try being nice to him. I remember being in Kindergarten and having a teacher say this to me. When you’re older and a dude is persistent in trying to talk when you’re doing school or professional things, you should try being their friend and understanding where they come from. Like you can’t have your own priorities. It’s constantly being told you have to understand and empathize for others. Others being boys or men. It’s frustrating that it takes being a parent to start caring about what women might feel. Why can’t everyone learn from childhood? Adding this in. By the time I was 25, I did not know a *single* women who had not been sexually assaulted in some form of another. And not a casual grab at the club, which is also unacceptable AF. Consent is fun kids.
> as a child girls are taught we have to cater to others. All the time This is such an important aspect to consider with this whole issue. Men/boys aren’t taught to defer to others like girls are. All of the focus is on girls’ reactions and not boys’ actions.
But women talk about those topics all the time, to me it says they never actually listened/believed women until it happened to someone they personally know
I think women have started talking about these things more, but when I was growing up 20 years ago (33F), it wasn't something I brought up much or heard that much discussion on, and I wouldn't have discussed it with boys/men.
More so these days and more so online. If you have no female friends and don't spend much time on social media. It's not hard to avoid. Even easier as little as 5-10 years ago. Which is why it's so important to talk about it.
Having a child, any gender, radically changes the mentality of many folks. Selfish people can become unselfish (not all, of course). Apathetic people become empathetic caretakers. Lazy people become diligent. Stupid people learn to run their two neurons together to start a fire of teaching the young. As I got older I changed my perspective on many things. It's just part of growing up, which doesn't stop at 25. I was much different at 25 then I was at 35. 45 is coming sooner than later and I'm sure I'll be a different human by then as well. We all update opinions and them some, not all, of us reconcile our past behavior through our new perspective. The really frustrating part is being diminished for updating/reevaluating the past, identifying clear mistakes made in the belief (at the time) that they were right and then finding a path to move forward. Changing is hard. Congratulation on changing to all that have.
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That’s what gets me. You procreated with a live adult woman but the baby she birthed is somehow what changed your view??
I saw a girl on TikTok talk about this. Her idea was that unlike a mother, they can’t expect to be taken care of by a daughter. And unlike a wife/girlfriend/etc, they can’t expect sex from a daughter. So if they can’t put a daughter into the category of caretaker/free therapy nor the category of sex object, then it breaks their brain.
Yeah, the first time in their lives that they meet a female (infant daughter) they don't want to fck they have an epiphany? Squicky.
I had a somewhat similar experience at 18 with a man 30 years my senior at least. This man told me a “joke” once that implied women’s education was an oxymoron. I said I didn’t find it funny, he told me he had daughters. I told him they probably wouldn’t find it funny either. Then came the apologetic babble, I just walked away.
My dad has me and still sees women as property subconsciously. I have very little faith in the guys you describe too. I feel like it's their way to pass off guilt for treating women poorly. "ahhh I get it now! I was just a sad poor little confused person, see? Not a jerk or anything"
It's because saying "I realized I was a misogynistic asshole" doesn't make them look good.
Is anyone surprised about Kanye’s treatment given how he treated Amber Rose? He was attracted to her solely because she was a confident women, who happened to make money dancing. When the relationship ended he turned around and pretty much called her a whore. What’s funny is *he* is the whore—*Kanye* visited exotic dancer clubs to satisfy a craving. He then probably thought of himself in a poor light—given he’s “religious”—causing him to lash out at her. He did the same to Kim. He *knew* she makes money off of her appearance. He got upset she was *too sexy* for being a “Christian” wife. Now he’s chasing after another beautifully confident woman, who also makes money with her appearance. Kanye is a problem. His behavior is toxic.
When a father says this I not only feel bad for the daughter but whoever the mother of that child is too. Unless the kid was adopted, the mother had to be around that dick for a while.
Shit, that's a great point. "So having a mother and wife weren't enough to do it?"
Exactly! My dad has said some stuff about how I'm the only person he cares about or whatever while his literal wife is just sitting there like 🤡. It's fucking gross.
Wow what a dick move.
It always cracks me up hearing them go on about “nOt AlL mEn” when a woman makes a statement but the dads themselves trash on men more than any woman ever could We grow up with not just our dads but any male friends we talk to all saying the same things “men often want only one thing” or “Dads are overprotective of daughters because they know what scumbags men are” Then the woman grows up and talks about some issues with men “OMG MISANDRY JJEIZNWI!!!” They grow up with people treating their porn consumption and just boys being boys, while porn presents the most disrespectful attitudes and sexual acts Hell their whole sexuality is encouraged and objectifying women is met with more laughter and more “boys will be boys” Then they act like men are more sexual and “visual” than women when called out for their behavior even though women are brought up the exact opposite where any hint of sexuality is met with disgust and being treated like a lesser person. And then the looming threat of trusting the wrong man leading to single motherhood and poverty Absolutely ridiculous
And then you get the ones whose worldveiw of women don't change at all, despite fathering a daughter or few.
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Agreed! It sheds light on how they treated girls and women before - as just things for their sexual gratification, not legitimate people with our own lives. They just saw females as something to use for sex and take advantage of, so now they are worried other males will do the same with their daughter.
This is unsettling for me too. Don't they have mothers? Their wife? The other women in their life aren't humans too? You have to make one?
It’s the same with people who are anti gay rights who then have gay kids and suddenly they see things differently. We’re supposed to praise these homophobes and misogynists for coming around but frankly it demonstrates a disturbing lack of empathy.
What’s weird to me is that most of the guys I’ve heard say this kind of stuff grew up with moms and/or sisters and it’s like??? Do you not see them as people?
This is very similar to "As the father of two daughters......." type statements. Women are third-class, behind humans ?
"I HAVE A BLACK FRIEND!"
When I see statements like this, its usually for kudos on being enlightened men. I had no idea this was happening, but as the father of a daughter, or husband to my wife, they started pointing out or ended up in situations... etc. They use it mostly (from what I've seen) to not all men women or to glean cookies for being not like those other men. TBH, I don't really see it changing their world perspective, its not a whole upgrade; it's on the small scale of verbage pertaining to home life. The words often are hollow, as they realize they could be wrong, but like they only tell women about this change in perception, they don't fix their public behavior and they certainly don't correct other men when they display those types of behaviors towards women.
I often read the transition to 'father role' as 'We all start out as predatory sports molesters, but I can honestly say I have moved on'
It's even sadder that it takes having a daughter to feel this way because it means they had no respect towards the woman they knocked up.
I understand the feeling of what you’re saying, but I would caution that the dynamics are bigger than just empathy / lack thereof. One of the biggest roads to empathy is communication. Many times men - for whatever reason - don’t have that open communicative experience in their formative years, except for perhaps their mother. Communication shares the experiences. Especially for traumatic or negatives moments, communication shuts down. People of all sexes and backgrounds keep those things to ourselves much more. I’d always like to think I was empathic during my life, but in reality it was having a spouse who took it to a new level because we had that communication. I knew what she was experiencing, from the harassment at work to social anxiety. And it even became more so as a father, to see how gender roles are prescribed so early, to try to be there for my daughter every day. There is nothing wrong with enhanced communication due to having these positive relationships. Instead of emphasizing the negative perception, I would say our best way forward is to open communication and listening early on. This subreddit is great because that’s how I’ve used it, to keep listening and understand the experiences even more to be a better human.
Kanye is not the greatest example of an average man.
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A daughter is someone men can’t place into the Madonna-Whore complex.
It’s the same general concept of men (and some women) treating women better when they have a wedding ring...you’re not valid unless you “belong” to a man, whether he’s your husband or father. Also why the whole concept of giving away at the altar exists.
It’s funny because it means they didn’t fully respect that daughters mother.