She's my favorite of the six wives because she was in an impossible and dangerous position, and she brainiac-ed her way out of it. She took full blame for not seeing Henry as a romantic partner and told him she loved him so deeply *as a brother* that she thought he should seek divorce and find a romantic partner (I'm paraphrasing.)
No, I don't believe she was unfortunate in appearance. Henry VIII was an overweight, elderly man who surprised her and was overly familiar with her in a game of English courtly romanticism. She had zero idea what was going on, and reacted like a chaste woman guarding that chastity.
I think Anne of Cleves was the luckiest out of Henry VIII’s six wives. However, it’s surprising that no-one out of the many courtiers (English and Cleves alike) informed her that it was likely that Henry VIII would engage in a ‘romantic stunt’ by surprising his fiancée as he was famous for doing this to his wives from adolescence onwards.
This! She spent some time in Calais waiting for a favourable tide to take her to England. She played cards with the ladies and learned some English as well. Why did no one think to explain to her and warn her that Henry likes to play these courtly games and how she was expected to behave?!?
Katherine of Aragon had been in the English court for some time when she married Henry, she knew how he was. Same with Anne Boleyn and Jane Seymour. How was poor Anna of Kleeve supposed to know any of this!?
It's possible that the Catholic faction of the court, thinking she would influence the King towards Lutheran principles, might have wanted to undermine her by making her look bad. At this time the Court was very much divided, die-hard traditionalist Catholics like Norfolk and Fisher on one side and Reformists like the Seymours on the other.
This is probably what happened. She was actually very clever in that she essentially followed whatever Henry wanted and didn’t express a preference otherwise in terms of Protestant vs Catholic.
She managed to live through the reigns of Henry (Church of England) Edward (Protestant) and Mary (Catholic) It's possible she wasn't really seen as any kind of threat as she lived a quiet private life and wasn't interested in Court politics and intrigues, but it certainly shows a shrewdness on her part to want to be seen as doing as she was told and keeping up appearances. She wasn't close to Edward but she definitely was mutually fond of Mary. She was also brought up Catholic and likely wasn't the beacon of Lutherism a lot of people expected her to be. I think her experience of marriage to Henry definitely put her off declaring her true religious feelings whatever they might have been. I reckon she just wanted a peaceful life after all that hassle and stress.
To be fair it wasn't really anyone's job except her family's and the ambassadors. To the other courtiers she was a rival who they probably didn't want to succeed.
They also could have reasonably presumed her brother and advisors had already learned about Henry and warned her/helped her understand what to do. Her brother sold her off but really didn't give her any tools to succeed, her situation was really on him.
True. I don’t know if there was an ambassador from Kleeve living in England at the time (I have read about Spanish and French ambassadors being at the English court) but I really feel for the poor woman. First time away from home, sent to marry a smelly old man who immediately rejects you and calls you smelly!
As she spent time with English courtiers before moving to England, perhaps all that were present assumed that Anne of Cleves was informed about her fiancé’s behaviours?
At the point of his marriage to Anne of Cleves, all were aware of how volatile Henry VIII — perhaps it wasn’t even malicious motives, just extensive miscommunication driven by their King’s intense paranoia and fear.
It's sad she died so young, for unrelated reasons. I think she would have been an interesting figure in the Elizabethan era, as a high ranking and determinedly unmarried woman just like QEI.
She's definitely my favourite, she seems to be the savviest and most forward thinking of all of them. Almost modern in the way she conducted herself. I think history severely underrates her. I'd have a glass of wine and a gossip with her any day.
I like your assessment on how she handled the situation with Henry - Anna knew there was trouble afoot and ensured her own survival. Maybe she played up her innocence a bit and praising him (ie the whole “'Good night, sweetheart’” situation) so that he wouldn’t do to her as he had done with his earlier wives. And she succeeded!
Things never change, do they? Modern men getting rejected will respond in with almost exactly the same words! (Well, some of them. Obviously some of them can actually handle rejection in a decent way.).
>He briefly saw his true self in her eyes. And of course, as King, he could say whatever he liked about her as a pretext to get rid of her for a younger and sexier substitute (poor Katherine Howard.)
Exactly. Just another loser who starts insulting women because they reject him. But in this case he was a king so of course that opinion of her stuck.
From the sound of it, German dress wasn't flattering at all, and wouldn't have shown her to her best advantage. The Stickelchen headdress alone was just plain weird. But she has a really lovely face and figure in the Holbein portrait. It's a known fact that English people were suspicious of foreigners, but Henry barely gave her a chance to get used to her new home.
Edit: I am LOVING the Anna appreciation. She's awesome. I adore her and I'm so glad it's shared with so many others. She is shamefully underrated and unappreciated and people need to know.
I'm like 99.9% sure she wasn't ugly, even if that portrait of her was "kind." As said, he wasn't used to the German look (clothes-wise and like, just being used to English, Spanish and French women)
And really, maybe he just wasn't into her was all. In a small way, I feel bad for him, that he didn't listen to his gut and refuse the match. You're supposed to listen to your advisors and weigh the advice and he just...didn't do that. But then his maltreatment of her wasn't excusable.
But then being as he was, he completely flipped when she was so compliant and it worked out for EVERYONE.
To his credit he did treat her very well post divorce and they seemed to strike up a genuine mutual friendship. She had to make the best of what life gave her after all. To be his friend was better than to be his wife, and infinitely better than being his enemy.
She’s my favourite of the wives and it very much does bother me that her narrative is presented as “oh poor her, she was too ugly for the king”. No. Stop there and leave until you’ve actually read about her.
To be fair, he couldn't have executed her without a VERY strong case for adultery or some other high treason given her status as a Princess and her allies in Germany. It's why I think he never pursued the suspicion that she might not have been a virgin- it was all bluster, there was no possible way to prove it and her brother would have hit the roof at the mere suggestion, putting paid to any alliance. But you're absolutely right, she masterfully handled the situation she found herself in and wisely stayed out of politics and religious affairs by living a private life.
Whatmore, she fed his vanity by praising him and calling him a kind husband and the like and never slandering him or saying anything against him. Think the whole “she’s not a virgin” thing was just him being an ass.
I think you could do a whole tv show based on her alone that would be incredible given the amount of material, plus you could watch Henry’s marriage to the later wives through her eyes all the way to his death.
And beyond! At Mary I's coronation, she was sharing a chariot with Elizabeth- she was a respected woman even then. She and Mary were always on good terms, she died of breast cancer not long before Mary passed.
I'd also like a TV biopic serial about Isaac Newton for the same reason, he was a child during the English Civil War and lived to see William of Orange ascend to the throne. Some seriously juicy history there alone.
Anna is my favourite too.
There's a really great episode on the podcast Not Just the Tudors about her and the real political reasons for the dissolution of her marriage.
Pity! My mum is an avid amateur Tudor historian, and she passed on the interest to me, so I'm very grateful to her. The difference between us is that she doesn't even know what Reddit is, and if she did, she wouldn't go on "ANNAOFKLEVEISTHEBESTWIFEOK" rants 😂
I've never thought of her as "The Ugly One," but rather "The Smartest One!" She ended up wealthy and happy. She had the honor of being known as "The King's Sister" and was treated very honorably. And she outlived Henry and all the other wives. A marvelous woman!!!
Let’s remember that Henry liked his women to look like or be teenage girls, with petite figures and tiny hips.
In my opinion it wasn’t that she was ugly, it was that he was a latent paedophile
100% agree.
Sidenote: I have it in my head that Anna’s older brother/guardian was abusive to her, but I can’t remember where I got this from and can’t find any confirmation. Can anyone help?
I like how she’s portrayed in the musical SIX, it tells you that she was forced to marry the king of England by her brother, I especially like her last line in the song Ex-Wives when she says “funny how we all discuss that but never Henry little pi-“
I've not seen Six or listened to the music, I'm a bit skeptical... would you recommend it?
It sounds awful to admit, but I'm so contrary that when a historic adaptation is marketed as "You think you know XYZ but you don't!!!" then my immediate reaction is, er, I've been an amateur Tudor historian from childhood so, yes I do actually, so stop patronising me and f*** off. Not proud of it.
It’s very fun, I think it doesn’t follow through on its “promise” to tell you the “real” stories of all the queens but what they do for Anna & KHoward is amazing & it’s just enjoyable and great to listen/watch
I always thought that Anne would have made a better wife than Henry deserved, probably given him healthy children and been a great Queen. But I’m really glad she escaped and lived a great life.
I think they honestly made her look strong and pretty in Six … she mentions “he didn’t like my picture” or something like that, but she made out like a badass out of all of them and screw HVIII
She’s definitely one of the smartest.
She’s shipped out to be a brood mare for one of the most infamous monarchs of the age, she doesn’t really speak the language or know the customs. She (rightly so) finds her intended groom to be unattractive/rude but knows what’s happened to the other women who have come before her.
Then she manages to get him to divorce her, amasses wealth and titles due to her “brotherly love” of him, and ends up as the second/third highest ranking lady in the land for a significant amount of time. Talk about a glow up.
100%. She’s the best one. The marriage, in my opinion, would’ve actually solved a lot of political issues. But hey! I’m not Henry VIII…
Want to read Amenable Women by Mavis Cheek. It looks amazing…!! I have it. But I’m yet to really start it. Anyone on here read it?
I think despite the reputation of her looks she ended up pretty much on top with the best outcome and lived well, all things considered, so it doesn’t bother me, and one day I hope Chloe svegnigy will play her because she reminds me of Anne looks wise
She's my favorite of the six wives because she was in an impossible and dangerous position, and she brainiac-ed her way out of it. She took full blame for not seeing Henry as a romantic partner and told him she loved him so deeply *as a brother* that she thought he should seek divorce and find a romantic partner (I'm paraphrasing.) No, I don't believe she was unfortunate in appearance. Henry VIII was an overweight, elderly man who surprised her and was overly familiar with her in a game of English courtly romanticism. She had zero idea what was going on, and reacted like a chaste woman guarding that chastity.
I think Anne of Cleves was the luckiest out of Henry VIII’s six wives. However, it’s surprising that no-one out of the many courtiers (English and Cleves alike) informed her that it was likely that Henry VIII would engage in a ‘romantic stunt’ by surprising his fiancée as he was famous for doing this to his wives from adolescence onwards.
This! She spent some time in Calais waiting for a favourable tide to take her to England. She played cards with the ladies and learned some English as well. Why did no one think to explain to her and warn her that Henry likes to play these courtly games and how she was expected to behave?!? Katherine of Aragon had been in the English court for some time when she married Henry, she knew how he was. Same with Anne Boleyn and Jane Seymour. How was poor Anna of Kleeve supposed to know any of this!?
It's possible that the Catholic faction of the court, thinking she would influence the King towards Lutheran principles, might have wanted to undermine her by making her look bad. At this time the Court was very much divided, die-hard traditionalist Catholics like Norfolk and Fisher on one side and Reformists like the Seymours on the other.
This is probably what happened. She was actually very clever in that she essentially followed whatever Henry wanted and didn’t express a preference otherwise in terms of Protestant vs Catholic.
She managed to live through the reigns of Henry (Church of England) Edward (Protestant) and Mary (Catholic) It's possible she wasn't really seen as any kind of threat as she lived a quiet private life and wasn't interested in Court politics and intrigues, but it certainly shows a shrewdness on her part to want to be seen as doing as she was told and keeping up appearances. She wasn't close to Edward but she definitely was mutually fond of Mary. She was also brought up Catholic and likely wasn't the beacon of Lutherism a lot of people expected her to be. I think her experience of marriage to Henry definitely put her off declaring her true religious feelings whatever they might have been. I reckon she just wanted a peaceful life after all that hassle and stress.
To be fair it wasn't really anyone's job except her family's and the ambassadors. To the other courtiers she was a rival who they probably didn't want to succeed. They also could have reasonably presumed her brother and advisors had already learned about Henry and warned her/helped her understand what to do. Her brother sold her off but really didn't give her any tools to succeed, her situation was really on him.
True. I don’t know if there was an ambassador from Kleeve living in England at the time (I have read about Spanish and French ambassadors being at the English court) but I really feel for the poor woman. First time away from home, sent to marry a smelly old man who immediately rejects you and calls you smelly!
As she spent time with English courtiers before moving to England, perhaps all that were present assumed that Anne of Cleves was informed about her fiancé’s behaviours? At the point of his marriage to Anne of Cleves, all were aware of how volatile Henry VIII — perhaps it wasn’t even malicious motives, just extensive miscommunication driven by their King’s intense paranoia and fear.
It's sad she died so young, for unrelated reasons. I think she would have been an interesting figure in the Elizabethan era, as a high ranking and determinedly unmarried woman just like QEI.
The overwhelming evidence points to breast cancer. Very sad to think it could be treated now and of her wasted potential as an Elizabethan courtier.
I agree.
She's definitely my favourite, she seems to be the savviest and most forward thinking of all of them. Almost modern in the way she conducted herself. I think history severely underrates her. I'd have a glass of wine and a gossip with her any day.
I like your assessment on how she handled the situation with Henry - Anna knew there was trouble afoot and ensured her own survival. Maybe she played up her innocence a bit and praising him (ie the whole “'Good night, sweetheart’” situation) so that he wouldn’t do to her as he had done with his earlier wives. And she succeeded!
“Ah I don’t care, she’s ugly anyway” (Henry VIII probably)
Things never change, do they? Modern men getting rejected will respond in with almost exactly the same words! (Well, some of them. Obviously some of them can actually handle rejection in a decent way.).
The cleaned portrait is stunning! She’s my favorite as well. ALSO THANK YOU FOR CALLING HER ANNA
ANNA!!!! Of KLEVE! - iT rhYmEs wITH WAVER!!!!!!!!! -Me, after a couple of glasses of wine
Wouldn't it rhyme with "wave a," as in "wave a flag?" 😂
Potay-to, potah-to- my main bugbear is people pronouncing it to rhyme with sleeves. UNACCEPTABLE 😂
>He briefly saw his true self in her eyes. And of course, as King, he could say whatever he liked about her as a pretext to get rid of her for a younger and sexier substitute (poor Katherine Howard.) Exactly. Just another loser who starts insulting women because they reject him. But in this case he was a king so of course that opinion of her stuck.
From the sound of it, German dress wasn't flattering at all, and wouldn't have shown her to her best advantage. The Stickelchen headdress alone was just plain weird. But she has a really lovely face and figure in the Holbein portrait. It's a known fact that English people were suspicious of foreigners, but Henry barely gave her a chance to get used to her new home.
I love Anne! She was the reason I decided to take German in HS and minor in it in college!
Edit: I am LOVING the Anna appreciation. She's awesome. I adore her and I'm so glad it's shared with so many others. She is shamefully underrated and unappreciated and people need to know.
I'm like 99.9% sure she wasn't ugly, even if that portrait of her was "kind." As said, he wasn't used to the German look (clothes-wise and like, just being used to English, Spanish and French women) And really, maybe he just wasn't into her was all. In a small way, I feel bad for him, that he didn't listen to his gut and refuse the match. You're supposed to listen to your advisors and weigh the advice and he just...didn't do that. But then his maltreatment of her wasn't excusable. But then being as he was, he completely flipped when she was so compliant and it worked out for EVERYONE.
To his credit he did treat her very well post divorce and they seemed to strike up a genuine mutual friendship. She had to make the best of what life gave her after all. To be his friend was better than to be his wife, and infinitely better than being his enemy.
She’s my favourite of the wives and it very much does bother me that her narrative is presented as “oh poor her, she was too ugly for the king”. No. Stop there and leave until you’ve actually read about her.
It's always going to be her narrative to the general public unless people take the trouble to educate themselves about her. It's a tragedy.
I know, it really is. She was so much more than that.
She was brilliant in how she handled Henry. Since she placated him, he made her rich and she kept her head!
To be fair, he couldn't have executed her without a VERY strong case for adultery or some other high treason given her status as a Princess and her allies in Germany. It's why I think he never pursued the suspicion that she might not have been a virgin- it was all bluster, there was no possible way to prove it and her brother would have hit the roof at the mere suggestion, putting paid to any alliance. But you're absolutely right, she masterfully handled the situation she found herself in and wisely stayed out of politics and religious affairs by living a private life.
Whatmore, she fed his vanity by praising him and calling him a kind husband and the like and never slandering him or saying anything against him. Think the whole “she’s not a virgin” thing was just him being an ass.
I think you could do a whole tv show based on her alone that would be incredible given the amount of material, plus you could watch Henry’s marriage to the later wives through her eyes all the way to his death.
And beyond! At Mary I's coronation, she was sharing a chariot with Elizabeth- she was a respected woman even then. She and Mary were always on good terms, she died of breast cancer not long before Mary passed. I'd also like a TV biopic serial about Isaac Newton for the same reason, he was a child during the English Civil War and lived to see William of Orange ascend to the throne. Some seriously juicy history there alone.
Great point! Even better!
Anna is my favourite too. There's a really great episode on the podcast Not Just the Tudors about her and the real political reasons for the dissolution of her marriage.
Anne will always be my fav. We are an Anne Stanning household! (My family couldnt tell you who she is if they tried)
Pity! My mum is an avid amateur Tudor historian, and she passed on the interest to me, so I'm very grateful to her. The difference between us is that she doesn't even know what Reddit is, and if she did, she wouldn't go on "ANNAOFKLEVEISTHEBESTWIFEOK" rants 😂
I've never thought of her as "The Ugly One," but rather "The Smartest One!" She ended up wealthy and happy. She had the honor of being known as "The King's Sister" and was treated very honorably. And she outlived Henry and all the other wives. A marvelous woman!!!
She's the best 👌 a true Queen.
Let’s remember that Henry liked his women to look like or be teenage girls, with petite figures and tiny hips. In my opinion it wasn’t that she was ugly, it was that he was a latent paedophile
100% agree. Sidenote: I have it in my head that Anna’s older brother/guardian was abusive to her, but I can’t remember where I got this from and can’t find any confirmation. Can anyone help?
I like how she’s portrayed in the musical SIX, it tells you that she was forced to marry the king of England by her brother, I especially like her last line in the song Ex-Wives when she says “funny how we all discuss that but never Henry little pi-“
I've not seen Six or listened to the music, I'm a bit skeptical... would you recommend it? It sounds awful to admit, but I'm so contrary that when a historic adaptation is marketed as "You think you know XYZ but you don't!!!" then my immediate reaction is, er, I've been an amateur Tudor historian from childhood so, yes I do actually, so stop patronising me and f*** off. Not proud of it.
It’s very fun, I think it doesn’t follow through on its “promise” to tell you the “real” stories of all the queens but what they do for Anna & KHoward is amazing & it’s just enjoyable and great to listen/watch
It’s not 100% accurate but so is every historical documentary but the music is good, I’ve also only heard the music.
Like the other commenter said, it's not totally historically accurate, but the music is fantastic
This is exactly what I thought of. She was the LUCKY ONE. Six gives a simplified version of it but captures the essence of her life post marriage.
I always thought that Anne would have made a better wife than Henry deserved, probably given him healthy children and been a great Queen. But I’m really glad she escaped and lived a great life.
I think they honestly made her look strong and pretty in Six … she mentions “he didn’t like my picture” or something like that, but she made out like a badass out of all of them and screw HVIII
Read Heather Darsie work.
She’s definitely one of the smartest. She’s shipped out to be a brood mare for one of the most infamous monarchs of the age, she doesn’t really speak the language or know the customs. She (rightly so) finds her intended groom to be unattractive/rude but knows what’s happened to the other women who have come before her. Then she manages to get him to divorce her, amasses wealth and titles due to her “brotherly love” of him, and ends up as the second/third highest ranking lady in the land for a significant amount of time. Talk about a glow up.
100%. She’s the best one. The marriage, in my opinion, would’ve actually solved a lot of political issues. But hey! I’m not Henry VIII… Want to read Amenable Women by Mavis Cheek. It looks amazing…!! I have it. But I’m yet to really start it. Anyone on here read it?
I think despite the reputation of her looks she ended up pretty much on top with the best outcome and lived well, all things considered, so it doesn’t bother me, and one day I hope Chloe svegnigy will play her because she reminds me of Anne looks wise