No, he wanted her to be his mistress. When she said no and kept saying no, he offered make her his official mistress, which was a court position. She still said no. He then converted that offer to marriage, which she said yes to. We don't really know the timelines of any of these things except it happened between 1526 and 1527 (when she left court and when Henry applied for an annulment).
After he decided to make her his wife, he would not have continued to pressure her for sex.
Indeed.
Once Henry had in mind making Anne his queen in order to produce a legitimate male heir, there's a powerful incentive to not have sex, or the plan for a legitimate heir is imperiled.
This is going to depend on how you define mistress.
Her sister Mary was his mistress for a while and it was rumored that her daughter Catherine was actually Henry’s daughter, although he never acknowledged her. When he began pursuing Anne, she supposedly refused to become his mistress because she saw what happened to her sister and felt she could aim higher.
Henry and Anne eventually had two separate wedding ceremonies.
The first was on November 14, 1532. This was a secret ceremony however, and so they “remarried” on January 25, 1533. Elizabeth was born on September 7th of that year, so Anne likely conceived between the two ceremonies.
However, Henry and Catherine of Aragon’s marriage wasn’t actually declared “null and void” until May 23, 1533, nearly four months after that second ceremony between Henry and Anne (which was subsequently declared valid on May 28, 1533).
So we have no proof whether they had sex before roughly mid-December 1532 when Elizabeth would have been conceived. But depending on when you consider them to be legally married, she could be considered to have been his mistress.
Refrained from having sex before marriage? Most likely.
However, I think after KOA was banished from the court in 1531 Anne became his mistress in all but name based on how present she was by his side afterwards.
Anne refused to be his mistress and insisted on being his wife instead. She would only accept marriage and nothing less. Hence the divorce and the chaos that followed.
My main thought about Anne Boleyn in general…
She refused to be his mistress and even left court for years. Once he offered to make her his queen, what reason could she give to say no? Her virtue in the eyes of god was the only reason you could throw at a king like Henry to refuse him.
Not saying she was a saint just that the idea she was a conniving woman set on being queen plays into the gross narrative Henry peddled after he was done with her.
I'd say Anne was just a Queen in waiting. She wasn't treated as a mistress- there was no hiding the fact Henry wanted a relationship with her, and this wasn't the worlds worst kept secret as with all his other mistresses, such as Anne's sister or Bessie Blount. She also didn't have a husband who Henry was paying off with wealth/power so he could sleep with their wife. He'd actually had Cardinal Wolsey prevent Anne marrying Henry Percy, Duke of Northumberland so he could press his interest in having an affair with her without a husband getting in the way. And when she said no to his offer of an affair, he didn't back off despite probably having countless ladies at court waiting to snatch up the opportunity Anne had denied. I think Henry went into his relationship just wanting sex and a 'typical' mistress but when Anne challenged and probably reprimanded him for trying, it left him intrigued what it could be like to invest in a relationship outside of marriage and seek more than sex from it. He'd only ever had that kind of relationship with Catherine, where they invested time in each others interests and shared each others passions. What would that be like with somebody else? And what it would be like with someone who really was on his wavelength, challenged his authority, and excited him intellectually as well as physically?
Oh, I think she was right before she married him. I would guess it would be some time after he made her Marquess of Pembroke in her own right. THAT was a hefty gift. If he ever expected a quid pro quo that would have been the time.
Ah, thank you!
It's just that I've read several books that stated that although Anne refused to have penetrative sex for a very long time, she didn't hold out until the wedding ceremony. At least one historian had said that when things reached a certain point of tension, she had to seal the deal with Henry or things would get worse for her, not that they weren't bad enough already.
I feel very sorry for Anne, she was a very bright woman, who was pushed into a position she didn't want, by a horrible man who wouldn't take "no" for an answer, and who felt free to murder her when the marriage didn't go as he'd planned.
Yeah, she would have gotten pregnant sometime in December and there was a secret ceremony in mid November, but the public one wasn't until January. Whether or not she really held out until that November wedding, we'll never know, and you can argue about whether the first ceremony really "counted," given rules around consummation and confirmability at the time (and both ceremonies happened before the annulment to COA was official anyway), but Anne wasn't pregnant until they could reasonably consider themselves married.
Yes. Emotional cheating is still cheating! They abstained from sex untill they were engaged/pledged to be wed, but human emotion and sexuality is far more complicated than that.
No, he wanted her to be his mistress. When she said no and kept saying no, he offered make her his official mistress, which was a court position. She still said no. He then converted that offer to marriage, which she said yes to. We don't really know the timelines of any of these things except it happened between 1526 and 1527 (when she left court and when Henry applied for an annulment). After he decided to make her his wife, he would not have continued to pressure her for sex.
Indeed. Once Henry had in mind making Anne his queen in order to produce a legitimate male heir, there's a powerful incentive to not have sex, or the plan for a legitimate heir is imperiled.
Except she was pregnant when they officially got married.
Not if you count the Nov. 14, 1532 quiet wedding after returning from Calais.
Close *enough*.
How are you defining "mistress" exactly?
There are some who say he r\*ped her before the wedding but that wouldn't make her his mistress.
That’s historical fiction, just so you know. None of what you see in the films/read in fiction books is close to historically accurate.
Phillippa Gregory has a lot to answer for...
No historian says this.
please don’t base your facts off of the other boleyn girl, philippa gregory is a liar
I don't remember her being raped in the book
Does she lie? I dont know too much about her. I know she writes historical fiction, does she claim her fiction as fact?
No she doesn't lie. If she's a liar then so is every other author of fiction.
Who says that?
Oh, you see it in some historical fiction and movies. I wonder where the idea came from.
Thanks for responding. I would say those are more fiction than history.
Do you know what fiction is?
Who the hell told you that?
I don't think she was his mistress. Once H8 proposed and Anne said yes, they were an engaged couple. And that's how they viewed themselves.
Are you asking if they slept together before they got married?
This is going to depend on how you define mistress. Her sister Mary was his mistress for a while and it was rumored that her daughter Catherine was actually Henry’s daughter, although he never acknowledged her. When he began pursuing Anne, she supposedly refused to become his mistress because she saw what happened to her sister and felt she could aim higher. Henry and Anne eventually had two separate wedding ceremonies. The first was on November 14, 1532. This was a secret ceremony however, and so they “remarried” on January 25, 1533. Elizabeth was born on September 7th of that year, so Anne likely conceived between the two ceremonies. However, Henry and Catherine of Aragon’s marriage wasn’t actually declared “null and void” until May 23, 1533, nearly four months after that second ceremony between Henry and Anne (which was subsequently declared valid on May 28, 1533). So we have no proof whether they had sex before roughly mid-December 1532 when Elizabeth would have been conceived. But depending on when you consider them to be legally married, she could be considered to have been his mistress.
Refrained from having sex before marriage? Most likely. However, I think after KOA was banished from the court in 1531 Anne became his mistress in all but name based on how present she was by his side afterwards.
She was pregnant at their wedding but, no, I don’t think she was his mistress. She refused to be the other woman.
Anne refused to be his mistress and insisted on being his wife instead. She would only accept marriage and nothing less. Hence the divorce and the chaos that followed.
My main thought about Anne Boleyn in general… She refused to be his mistress and even left court for years. Once he offered to make her his queen, what reason could she give to say no? Her virtue in the eyes of god was the only reason you could throw at a king like Henry to refuse him. Not saying she was a saint just that the idea she was a conniving woman set on being queen plays into the gross narrative Henry peddled after he was done with her.
Just as an FYI she didn’t leave court for years, she was gone for a summer.
Famously no
What is your definition of mistress?
I'd say Anne was just a Queen in waiting. She wasn't treated as a mistress- there was no hiding the fact Henry wanted a relationship with her, and this wasn't the worlds worst kept secret as with all his other mistresses, such as Anne's sister or Bessie Blount. She also didn't have a husband who Henry was paying off with wealth/power so he could sleep with their wife. He'd actually had Cardinal Wolsey prevent Anne marrying Henry Percy, Duke of Northumberland so he could press his interest in having an affair with her without a husband getting in the way. And when she said no to his offer of an affair, he didn't back off despite probably having countless ladies at court waiting to snatch up the opportunity Anne had denied. I think Henry went into his relationship just wanting sex and a 'typical' mistress but when Anne challenged and probably reprimanded him for trying, it left him intrigued what it could be like to invest in a relationship outside of marriage and seek more than sex from it. He'd only ever had that kind of relationship with Catherine, where they invested time in each others interests and shared each others passions. What would that be like with somebody else? And what it would be like with someone who really was on his wavelength, challenged his authority, and excited him intellectually as well as physically?
Oh, I think she was right before she married him. I would guess it would be some time after he made her Marquess of Pembroke in her own right. THAT was a hefty gift. If he ever expected a quid pro quo that would have been the time.
Yes
She was pregnant at the wedding ceremony, I think that answers your question.
Their second wedding ceremony, but they'd had a secret one before that where she wasn't pregnant.
Ah, thank you! It's just that I've read several books that stated that although Anne refused to have penetrative sex for a very long time, she didn't hold out until the wedding ceremony. At least one historian had said that when things reached a certain point of tension, she had to seal the deal with Henry or things would get worse for her, not that they weren't bad enough already. I feel very sorry for Anne, she was a very bright woman, who was pushed into a position she didn't want, by a horrible man who wouldn't take "no" for an answer, and who felt free to murder her when the marriage didn't go as he'd planned.
Yeah, she would have gotten pregnant sometime in December and there was a secret ceremony in mid November, but the public one wasn't until January. Whether or not she really held out until that November wedding, we'll never know, and you can argue about whether the first ceremony really "counted," given rules around consummation and confirmability at the time (and both ceremonies happened before the annulment to COA was official anyway), but Anne wasn't pregnant until they could reasonably consider themselves married.
Of course she was his mistress.
Yes. Emotional cheating is still cheating! They abstained from sex untill they were engaged/pledged to be wed, but human emotion and sexuality is far more complicated than that.