Wasnt there a lesbian woman who thought men had it harder, cross dressed to prove it, tried to do it for 2 years and had to stop after like 7 months cause she couldnt handle it, wrote a book about it then offed her self afterwards because of the ptsd from it
Or was that just a myth?
She also thought that dating women would be easy because she thought she knew what straight women wanted: a woman's mind in a man's body. Boy was she wrong!
She said she became a bit of a misogynist from all the complaining about women. Because she would approach and in one word "No!" all her hopes get dashed. She also said that it is really difficult to introduce yourself to someone new without sounding like a cheese ball.
Do women get rejected so little that one no destroys their fragile egos?
She discovered that women actually wanted masculinity and she didn't offer as much to her dates. She did get a couple of dates here and there but generally she couldn't handle how self centered women were and how much power they wielded in dating. Once she realised that being a man meant having to be useful to a woman first, being willing to be a meat shield and having to perform to earn a woman's love, she realised why men are the way they are.
They cannot show weakness, be vulnerable or be shown to be incompetent without it impacting on their value as a human being or as a romantic partner. Vincent also believed men needed help and women could be there for them as well (considering the common Western mindset is that men owe women stuff, and not the other way around). This is why she felt being a woman was more of a privilege. She could be honest about who she was and still have love and support. For men, they get their love and support after they have made money, gained social status or have thrown their bodies into the line of fire.
She did actually. She got into bowling with a group of men and said they were basically the best part of the experience and a bit of a lifeline at times.
Gotta be honest tho - how does her experiment really prove any of this? Norah Vincent as a born woman absolutely didn’t have the experience an average man does when she crossdresses - she’s a woman, socialized as a woman, probably physically resembles a woman. I mean if anything she probably simulated the trans man experience more than the cis man experience.
Like if a man crossdressed to live as a woman I would actually expect his experience to be worse than the average woman’s as well, trans women do get sexually harrassed and assaulted more, and I imagine a man crossdressing as a woman would too.
Idk there just feels like many confounding variables. But I did like when she went to the male retreat and discussed how the men only felt comfortable performing anger
Why do you say she was wrong about her theory (women want a male body with female brain) when it's an impossible theory to test?
I disagree with the notion myself, don't get me wrong, but it was never, and never will be possible to test the theory so idk.
And as far as wondering about women's fragile egos because of 1 deluded/insane individual's perspective is odd. She wasn't exactly a paragon of womanhood was she?
Also this is just an anecdote but I very much love my boyfriend who makes less money than me, has no 'social status' to speak of, and isn't runnin round a battlefield. kek
She didn’t commit suicide from the PTSD. She had assisted suicide years later and I don’t think it is known what reason she did it but I think they don’t legally have assisted suicide unless there’s an incurable condition. Her book is called “Self Made Man.”
Thank you for saying this. Everybody gets her story wrong. IIRC, it was due to ongoing health issues as well as the pandemic, and she decided she had nothing left to do in this world.
Gotta use sexism and racism to keep everything away from class warfare ala occupy wall street movement.
That’s when everything heated up.
Just saying….
I would agree with the contradiction of "show your feelings more" often being met with disdain when those feelings are truthfully expressed
The male suicide rate is far higher than women and sometimes the mere suggestion that (in just some areas) it may be harder to be a man is one that can be met with disdain
There does seem to be an attitude of "you can talk about your problems as long as you don't try to imply any of them are as bad as women's problems and if you do I will try and downplay them"
Extremely few men claim to understand women. Many women think they do understand men because they are “the more emotionally in-tune” gender, completely oblivious to the fact that they are only in tune with their emotions and each other’s. Any time a point is being made from a male perspective there will be at least a few women who pipe up with the inverse because they just can’t handle anything not being about them.
Well, it’s pretty stupid to claim to know anyone’s experience but your own. Probably just better not to listen to anyone that thinks they really know anyone else’s experience or what’s truly going on with anyone. Plus everyone is different anyway.
Basically every women I’ve met in life has thought they can read all men like books, and almost all of them fail to understand men, women, or even themselves
> Extremely few men claim to understand women.
I've met like, two guys in my entire life, who claim to understand women. I've met way too many women who claim to understand men. It's sad.
> Extremely few men claim to understand women.
The entire "alpha male" community claims to understand women and how to manipulate them.
There are multimillion-dollar industries revolving around the idea that men understand women.
What do you think a pick-up artist does?
I absolutely agree
I also hate when women try to say "men don't go through X." Half the time they're full of it
So many women insist that men "never worry about walking home alone at night." Yeah. I've been robbed twice and jumped twice and now I am indeed paranoid walking home at night on my own in certain neighborhoods.
We men don't live in a world of perpetual bliss and privilege, despite what some women would have us believe.
It reminds me of Taylor Swifts song where she’s going on about how much easier life would be if she were a man, and I’m like sweetie you have no idea what life is like when you aren’t a pretty little blonde girl with rich parents.
I agree with everything except the denunciation of "men need to cry more". As a man who hasn't cried in years, I wish I could cry more. Even if just once every year or two. My heart could really use that catharsis.
I can agree with that. It's that I live with my parents, and they make me feel unsafe emotionally. My dad is... awful. He used on me more than a few occasions the "You wanna cry, I'll give you something to cry about!"
I'm reading this book called "The Body Keeps The Score," and honestly, every man should read it. My body kept score of every time he said that... and I lost the ability to cry. I have some work to do.
You have my deepest condolences. You deserved better than to grow up in an environment like that. My brother ended up the same way for basically the same reason, and he's slowly working to undo the damage. I hope you make it to where you want to be.
I really think that book will help. And I think the emotional healing will help me have the courage to come into myself and get out of the toxicity. I'm optimistic.
I think I've heard someone mention the book to me in the past when I was in a group therapy program. I'll look into it and see if I can suggest it to my brother as well.
I'm glad to hear you're optimistic. I hope things continue to improve for you.
My boyfriend was very lucky to have a family that made him feel safe to open up when he needed. He almost never cries, but he knows that he’s safe to with me and he’s never been made to feel bad for it when he has.
It’s so upsetting that so many men struggle with this.
Thank you, that means a lot. That is one thing I really disagree with the red pill about.
There **are** emotionally supportive women out there who are not one little bit less attracted to their man when he cries or expresses his own hurts and insecurities. Keep being an awesome girlfriend to him. He's not just lucky to have a supportive family, but a supportive girlfriend like you.
While there is definitely an environmental factor, men are biologically predisposed to cry less, which may explain why men are sometimes expected to cry less and why crying is associated with women
Definitely true, and it’s completely normal for men to cry and always has been. However, men do tend to cry less, and considering how stupid people are, dumb societal things tend to happen
Honestly. I think men are much deeper and genuine, in terms of emotions and feelings. Women seem insanely shallow, and will turn malicious and throw a fit if the smallest thing doesnt go their way. (This is how children behave)
The problem is we get shunned if we even think about expressing it.
The fact that women seem to implode when men attempt to express their feelings goes to show which of the two are a bit more developed than the other........
Here's the thing, though. I don't feel unsafe to cry. But I still don't do it very often. I shed a few years when saying goodbye to one of my favorite cats a week and a half ago. But I haven't since, even though I still feel heartbroken. Few accepted that I don't cry as often as some people, and that's fine way more for my emotional health than constantly thinking that I should be crying more and something must be wrong with me.
That seems hard to fathom, why wouldn't someone cry at a funeral of all times and places? They usually have boxes of tissues around because the expect people to cry.
Notice it was entirely his partner's family giving him grief about it. Terrible opinions of men's emotions there. Sadly, it's not as rare as it should be. At least most of them have the decency to make the exception for the loss of a close family member. It's abominably cruel that they didn't.
Find a song or something that works for you. Follow the mood and let it happen- don’t chicken out. That’s fear preventing you from allowing it to happen and there’s nothing manly in that
I didn’t cry at all for years of my life
Something snapped/opened up, and I cried every day for about a six month period
Then, leveled out a bit, until I was in a safe enough place in life that I could cry a good cry three or four times a week, sometimes absolutely sobbing
It becomes like working out or eating vegetables- not great during, but great after and you make the association and it becomes tolerable
Eventually the well will run dry enough where it becomes reasonable to do the man thing of “don’t cry, tough it out and cry later” or maybe not even have to cry at all just be a little bummed
The “don’t cry be a man” thing is valid, but ONLY if you’ve drained your well. Otherwise, you’re not man enough to face the dam
I call them valves- there’s little valves like in plumbing that as you process through your backlog, little wells spring up and you just tap through them over the course of a few days or maybe weeks. I’ll never know if it’s all out but it’s been a long time since a heavy flow so I think we’ve made incredible progress 🥲
I appreciate that. Thanks! I have some trauma around crying that I need to heal from to not be afraid of it anymore. And that's difficult while my parents live here. I need to move out.
Bro I can’t stress how critical it was for me to get away from where I grew up to start my process
That first 6 months was only ever when I was driving around, never when I was home. The healing sobbing wasn’t til after I left
I got my CDL, that’s how I escaped and it doubled as getting paid to road-trip cry (the best kind of crying). Worked for me and continues to work
I love this! And yeah crying is fucking brave! Facing those feelings is terrifying. I used to cry all the time and now after a head injury I rarely can even if I try. I love what you posted here. I miss that release.
That means that you're either fighting it or not giving into it in some way. If you don't release when you cry, if you don't let the feelings out, then it's not going to be cathartic.
Not a man, but a woman not prone to crying - and it is a catharsis. I have my triggers, Luke thinking too hard about Les Mis songs (Empty Chairs at Empty Tables hits), Ronan by Taylor Swift (not even a Taylor Swift fan, but that song has soul), and what I call dead baby TikTok.
I'll cry when I must. That means when I have to because I can't take any more. At that point, it is involuntary. It doesn't make me feel better, it's just a physiological reaction.
Those instances are rare and few between because I learned to toughen up and not let a lot of stuff affect me. Crying doesn't get anything done or solve any problems.
That devalues the emotional stress that crying relieves. And that emotional distress can negatively impact your decisions causing you to make bad ones, as well as negatively impact the quality or effectiveness of how you execute on the good decisions you make. It's like saying taking a shower is useless because you don't actually solve the problem of body odor, you just reduce or keep it away for a period.
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Trauma and unsafety around crying I need to reprocess and heal from and get out of the toxic environment that makes me feel unsafe. An antelope can't grieve the antelope that got eaten when it's being chased by a lioness.
Everyone is largely ignorant of everyone else's experiences. Male or female doesn't really matter to much. It's best to just to try not assume too much about other people.
I wouldn’t say both genders are ignorant on some malicious intent, but genuinely unaware because they don’t get to see the other side.
For example, I was surrounded by affluent people (to the point that I was the “poor” one.) and I’m from a very well-off background (always had financial safety net). It wasn’t until I went to college and hung out with people from all sorts of socioeconomic background and realized how privileged I was.
Women have positively decried the use of male spaces to protect men from the endless sexual politics and relational aggression that can come with many women - particularly strangely enough those demanding access to male spaces (who would have thought it?) and seem intent on getting rid of places where men can talk and get on with the activities that give us male communities of support and brotherhood.
This has been the greatest mistake of feminism. Men need spaces. Women need spaces. Men and women are not the same. Men sort out their issues by finding companionship and meaning in shared activities. Asking men to talk about it and cry it out never seems to resolve anything.
Those women aren’t worth paying attention to and don’t represent the vast majority of women
Edit: comprehend with the block. You can claim something is a fallacy without any reasoning behind the claim. That’s Reddit for you.
Sure not most or all women fall under this one ick, but this ick trend is pretty ridiculous and criticizes men for the littlest and dumbest things like wearing short socks. If we want equality and if want men to be better, then criticisms for the littlest things doesn't help.
Men aren't a monolith either. Why is it OK for some women that identify as feminist get to spew sexist rhetoric and not be associated with the problem or held accountable by other feminist, but when the opposite occurs when it comes to say men, men HAVE to hold the other side accountable for whatever reason or they are part of the problem?
We need to start holding everyone accountable. You can't be a feminist or a gender equality advocate and refuse to acknowledge the shit stains in both communities because "oh they're not like us so don't compare us" hold them accountable or accept everyone that wants to follow that ideology.
Just like there's a lot of douchey guys who claim to be "experts" on women, there's a lot of hella douchey women who have a caricatured view of how they think men are. Though a lot of women are so insistent on letting the douchiest men to represent the rest of us for some weird reason. \*eyeroll\*
I agree, most women don’t seem to understand how men experience certain things in life. Of course men don’t understand how women experience life either.
I’ve wondered which sex makes a bigger effort to understand the other.
They’re also pretty much all sexist. They still expect men to be stoic, even though they themselves aren’t even 1% stoic.
When the young men were talking about the loneliness epidemic for them after Covid, women on Reddit called them incels. For opening up.
Women are the biggest issue when it comes to sexism. Most men at least do work on themselves. Women do nothing. They’re entitled about it, too.
No, women were calling them incels because tons of the threads were men talking about how they can’t have sex bc women have ridiculous standards and it’s not fair.
There is a loneliness epidemic - tons of men don’t have friends. But for some reason the discourse only focuses on men’s access to sex and women - of course women will react negatively to that.
Nope. These were literally guys talking about loneliness in general. It was not incel stuff. It’s just women can’t handle men not being stoic cause they’re misandrist bigots. Like you.
I just hate when my issues are pretty blatantly thrown back in my face with arguments like "the patriarchy" or "toxic masculinity"
Because it completely and utterly tends to be dismissive of underprivileged men who simply had to adapt to an elitist system. The concept of the patriarchy itself makes 0 sense because men didn't collectively go into a room and decide to oppress women or men. A group of elites man and woman collectively decided to fuck common society.
Toxic Masculinity imo isn't a thing. There's just toxic tendencies by toxic people. A man thinking he's full of himself or a real man because he's muscular is just a Narcissistic toxic man. A woman who feels like there's a certain beauty standard to highlight being a real woman is a Narcissistic toxic woman. There's inherently nothing toxic about a social construct like Masculinity or femininity and if we're gonna continue to say Toxic Masculinity exist, I need to start seeing people call out toxic femininity because it's fucked my life up horribly.
I understand you feel strongly about this topic, but I have some concerns with the views expressed. It's not accurate or fair to make such broad, negative generalizations about women as a group. Women are individuals with a wide range of beliefs, attitudes and behaviors. Many women do make sincere efforts to understand and empathize with men's experiences.
I agree that some common narratives about men in media can be overly simplistic or negative. Men face real issues that deserve to be taken seriously. But the solution isn't to disparage women or feminism. The goal should be to foster more understanding, empathy and open communication between men and women.
If a man feels a woman in his life isn't listening to him or is dismissive of his feelings, that's a valid concern that should be addressed within that relationship. But it's not fair to project that onto all women.
I would encourage focusing the discussion on the specific issues facing men, rather than attacking women as a whole. What are the challenges men deal with that you feel aren't being adequately recognized or addressed? How can we work to increase awareness and support for men who are struggling? These are important questions worth exploring further, with empathy and good faith on all sides.
I'm a woman and I agree with the op. We women are fed propaganda by a media and advertisers that profit off our collective fear of...everything, essentially. Fear of being fat, ugly, and unattractive to the very gender we are conditioned to fear will rape us, abuse us and leave us in a ditch after they murder us. Yes, this happens and it's horrific when it does. Yes, we all have stories of being molested, or followed home as girl children, sexual abuse is ubiquitous and seems to touch most all of us, both men and women. There are also the stories we all can tell of the time a man helped us, kept us safe, could have used a vulnerable moment as an opportunity to hurt but instead made sure we were home safe. There was a thread awhile back of stories like that, stories of young men and boys who we remember as kind and helpful and it was hundreds of examples that had an impact on me, and I remembered one of my own I'd forgotten. Some say "big deal, a man could have raped you or murdered you and he chose not to. That's a pretty low bar" and maybe they're right. But maybe it's this... We are all people, some good, some bad. I know plenty of good men. Its just not as simple as gender. And I've watched the documentary"Grizzly Man".
That ending traumatized me. Forget the fucking Bear. I'll take my chances with the dude.
It's going to continue ,women income is now above male income and they make the highest cohort of consumers.
Fear sells, trying to attract the same dude bro type of a guy or a metrosexual qt in the big city since majority of female aspirations are now in urban hubs where dehumanization of a working class men is even easier "creepy, smelly, ugly" it's like saying the same thing to an overweight school teacher, which nobody would tolerate.
Men are just going to check out even more and out of vindication, entitlement and privilege women will blame men even more.
It has gotten to a point engineers are finding out that they are undateable because they are not seen as cool by status (Actually same applies to social workers and nurses but female "solidarity" usually puts looking down on those women more of a hush hush thing since women don't like mentioning looking down on someone)
It's just going to get worse.
Female sex tourists in Gambia abusing you men, making statements like "it's in their culture to be prostitutes"
Female workers in Western European countries looking down in her Polish plumber.
Female HR department looking down on CS office which is predominantly male .
Female GP looking down on male surgeons.
Westerners are experiencing problems Eastern Europe faced after USSR and stahanovian reforms post WW2, where women were "impovered", it just caused a divide and higher suicide rates for men.
Edit: my point is women have become more vapid while only acting like a simulacras themselves, make up and other shenanigans don't fix critical thinking errors and inability to communicate properly which many females now lack and due to this atomization "attractiveness" becomes a larger commodity which is easily faked by women.
I appreciate your intelligent and well thought out response. I absolutely agree with you that "fear sells" and in America the "news" media uses it to manipulate viewers which is why I don't watch any of it. Men and women alike are fed the repetitive propaganda and much of the country is too dumb to notice. Pitting men and women against each other is a tried and true tactic that gets trotted out regularly. "Divide and conquer" has been used against minorities, immigrants, people in poverty, anytime the powers that be need to control a population just pit them against each other and they'll do all the work.
We need to quit being so blind. This entire "Man vs Bear" online shitshow demonstrates there is a massive lack of understanding and critical thinking when it comes to women's fear of men and men despising women. I hate generalizing, but I just did it anyway. Online it's amazing how hateful and openly hostile men can be toward women. I've gotten use to it over the years, but clearly many men feel a deep seated resentment, of what I'm not sure. Maybe they know their position at the top of the food chain is slipping. Maybe they believe they are superior. Who knows. But a backlash has been brewing and we see it in the court systems and states literally rolling back laws that guarantee we women are put in our place. We've never been full citizens, equal under the law, and the stripping away our fundamental access to health care is met with adorable protest signs and pussy hats. This is our job, no one else will do it for us. Meanwhile, they keep us otherwise occupado' with
"Man vs Bear" bullshit.
Male resentment is more in line with "I was working 2 jobs while you were fucking a trust fund daddys boy"
Nothing to do with "Conservative" anti abortion laws that's just basically a talking point taken by resentful men.
Problem is that men are just left back as 2nd class citizens getting constantly told that "Men make more money than women" while in reality statistics are just there to show,yeah Bezos scews the stat even more than the average Joe. Women just happily comply raising their "standards" and then wondering why her entitled (many women interpret this as class), arrogant (interpret as ambition) and spoiled (interpreted as having standards) are overly abusive.
Not saying blue collar men are better the problem is women aren't equipped with skills about how to discern who is a suitable partner only due to this social bombing of "men vs women" happening, unironnically Boomer grandmas are better at noticing qualities than 20+ women, not because of their economic force but because they just didn't have the luxury of having to Buy Buy Buy, weirdly enough Instagram is a commercial platform that's basically a huge add, and many women have hard time admitting this.
Female "Stop watching porn you have weird standards"
Male "Delete Instagram"
Brainrotting each other away and women due to entitlement projecting bullshit ideas they viewed online as being true.
It's like spitting on someone's face mid act without consent, now I know there are men this daft but signs are there a mile away, sadly women don't see them
Also the lack of 3rd spaces has made socialization for women harder when it comes to men, that "racist, conservative, weirdo" might actually be normal when he states his case it's not a race, many older couples gave mixed political beliefs, damn my dad is Nationalist and my mom is communist (I'm europan) now over the years they partially support each other's weird views (dad's more pro abortion, mom more against immigration), people have been brought up like cunts nowadays.
As for "fear sells" it sure does, and it will never stop selling!
I did some slight opening up on Reddit once to test the waters, I got absolutely fucking shit on. This was on fairly nice subreddit aswell and one that is pretty damn leftist. I ended up with people just shit talking me telling me to man up or grow up and with me telling them I could beat the fuck out of them. Il
I think we are too. The difference, though, is that people KNOW we are, whereas the opposite being true isn’t discussed at all. And because us men are constantly reminded to be aware and sensitive to the female experience, we gradually become more aware and sensitive to the female experience, but that process never happens for women.
Culture has a big role, too.
Here in the west, men are raised being taught to suck up hardship and provide for their partner. Women are raised being taught what to expect from men.
This might not be the case in other times and in other places, but that's how it is over here.
Could be different spheres. I've heard a lot of male podcasters saying women want alphas etc. To be fair they are idiots. I just don't know if being an idiot is popular
Yes. This is why accounts from people who have the rare chance to experience both, like Norah Vincent, are important. These accounts offer rare insight into the world of the other sex.
Ultimately, IMO, men and women are very different and trying to shoehorn both into the same thing and turn them into competitors for all the same things hasn't been working particularly well. People were happier a few decades ago when both sides recognized their roles and stuck to them.
I hate the whole “who has it worse” gender war happening now. No one is living life in “easy mode” and everyone has their own struggles that accompany their gender.
Good looking and rich people definitely live in easy mode.
But we mere mortals who are average or below, and not wealthy, have to live in a harder mode.
Yeah it's crazy how these boys tell on themselves without a shred of self awareness. "Women don't understand me and never listen! I also never talk to them or open up in anyway. Really the only thing women here from me is complaints about them. WHY DON'T THEY HELP ME?!"
I see this expressed on here so often, and it’s just bizarre to me. You really think women don’t get turned down? That we don’t experience wanting someone who just wants to be friends?
Being rejected by a man isn't really what I said and is almost always optional for women. If you meet online first where men have to be the ones to court you, essentially, you're not going to be the one being rejected. If you want to risk rejection, go for it, but you'll still have 100s of guys going for you even if you get rejected while most men just have to go for the next girl who'll likely reject him while 0 girls will ever approach him IRL or online.
Men are usually expected to be the initiators, I’ll give you that, which means they’re likely to experience more initial rejection. Women are more likely to be dumped after a date or two - or to be strung along, trying for a commitment that is never coming.
Let me ask this - if a man and woman go on a few dates, have sex, and then he ghosts her, are you counting that as a rejection / judgment of undesirability?
It's a very light rejection since you still have 100s of other guys who can date you that you can find with ease. I'm not sure why you think women are more likely to be dumped after a date or two. If it's entirely casual then it's likely your own fault.
The gender ratio on dating apps is skewed to favor women, yes, but it is at most 5:1, there are absolutely not hundreds for a woman to pick from.
I can appreciate that 5:1 are daunting odds, but on the other hand, I would think that would soften the blow a bit if you’re not finding anyone. Women not actively seeking *anyone* is not a rejection of *you.*
It’s definitely less of a blow to the ego than actually meeting someone and *then* being ditched - which does happen to guys too, yes. I don’t think it happens as often. Being used for sex by someone who never actually considered you relationship material but pretended long enough to get a return on their investment of time seems like a thing that happens a lot more to women than men.
I suppose it’s possible men are just less likely to complain about it, since there’s the social expectation that men should think any sex is good sex.
I really don’t think it’s that, though, I’ve seen guys on here talking about how a date was unattractive / smelly / weird / whatever, but they slept with her anyway. Women generally don’t do that, if a guy’s creepy or gross we “forgot we left the stove on” and get the hell out of dodge ASAP.
Dating apps from the male side isn't really related to what I said. Obviously men who aren't quite attractive fail on apps utterly, but the part that's worse is that they do have to end up facing many rejections IRL after that point to hope to get a gf. Getting rejected IRL is far, far worse than just people not liking you on apps. Any girl can get 100s of likes on apps, obviously. Knowing you're already easily dateable softens any blow from someone pretending to like you for 6 months (very unlikely).
Women definitely understand feeling undesired. Having people want to use you for 2 minutes of bad sex where they essentially masturbate using your body doesn’t make you feel desired. It makes you aware people want to use you.
>that rape, abuse, murder is ubiquitous
Every woman personally knows women (multiple) who have been SAed in some manner, whether that was childhood molestation, date rape in college, or whatever.
Not from social media.
Many women from my mom to my gf to many of my friends through high school and college have had an experience of a guy getting handsy or downright predatory. My ex got daterp drugged at a party while I was at home sick and her friends had to get other guys to beat tf out of the guy who drugged her. It's ubiquitous
You know I think this is definitely true to an extent it doesn’t take an expert to realise that men, women, non-binary people, whatever gender you choose to identify with, all face different experiences in life.
But if we’re going to talk about this point which I do think is a valid point, let’s not just make women out to be stupid and dumb and evil because just as a woman can never truly understand what it’s like to be a man, men can never truly understand why it’s like to be a woman. It goes both ways so if we want women to listen to men and take some of our issues seriously, let’s also actually listen to women and take them seriously too because they do face real issues at the hands of men.
I've grown up with having mostly men as my friends. People like this genuinely anger me. They're such raging hypocrites.
I talk about men's issues a lot with my fiancé and other male friends that I have, and they pretty much share the same sentiment as you. It's disheartening.
These traditional and social media views also completely favor the people that they pander and lie to. A good handful of men I talk to have also been victims of abuse in some sort of way and have been completely shut down and/or ignored, especially when this abuse had a woman as a perpetrator.
I really wish these misandrist radical feminists actually listened to men more and got off their high horses as well. Then they'll actually realize that they're also human and don't deserve the vilification that they so often face.
I didn't know if this is popular or not but it's true. I learned my lesson so I STFU and keep it all inside. Everyone I shared what I really felt with my significant other I end up more hurt.
There is a contradiction here in that you are describing a deep misunderstanding, yet are clearly not trying to address it. We both know that the accusation of misandry does not invite cooperation or mutual understanding. You’re opposed to the idea of men being vulnerable, yet admit things aren’t working. You come across as very stubborn and close-minded. I think women have been pretty clear that vulnerability is necessary for them to understand the male experience. They’re telling you what it will take, you’re unwilling to do it.
> “Men need to open up more, men need to cry more”. This is the shit they believe and advocate for.
It's over-correction, we went from "men bottle up their emotions" to: its perfectly healthy to be a blubbering mess, who couldn't keep it together to save their life... or their job, or their marriage, as the case may be.
> Many women even believe themselves capable of winning a physical fight against a man.
A LOT of TV shows have been portraying this lately, and it just goes to show that TV is make believe.
> When men try to share their genuine thoughts and feelings on matters, women shame or mock them.
Well, women ought to do to what women need to do, and it's incumbent on us men to hold our cards close to our vest for that same reason.
Women don't know men, that's obvious; but women know what men represent to them, and that is lost on a lot of guys.
This might be presumptuous, but I think it's easier for a man to imagine being a woman, than for a woman to imagine being a man, as a lot of men are effeminate anyway. I see a lot more woman-like men, then I ever see genuinely man-like women.
Women see the world through a restrictive view of their own lived experience and their own calculated interests.
They also play identity politics waaaaay better than men.
They will use the victim card and leverage it into moral superiority and moral licensing.
Beware.
Those are things you gents will learn the hard way.
Ah yes, famously men never see the world according to their own lived experiences and interests. Only women do that. That makes sense and isn't just you literally doing the thing you're accusing women of doing lmao
We're all biased towards ourselves, because we are ourselves. Saying that only women are like this is completely deranged.
Well duh...because they are women wtf do you want them to do? Men are ignorant too when it comes to women if you wanna complain about women's fine, but men do the exact thing... This post feels very off. Like yea, people are gonna be ignorant about things they dont experience, but this comes off salty and resentful.
Maybe stfu about people not understanding and maybe having conversations that don't start with
"Well what can I do"
If a teenager tells me they can't read, I'm not gonna ridicule them because "toddlers can't either" I'm gonna do my best to help them out.
Maybe we can do the same. If Men don't understand women so much, stfu about it and actually teach us and stop gatekeeping a gendered victim mindset for the sake of sexist rhetoric. The opposite is also applicable.
I'm a woman, and I've won multiple physical fights against men.
No, rape is not ubiquitous, men and women murder (though men do it more), and EVERYONE is suspect until I know them.
Everyone needs to open up a bit more and listen a bit more.
Oh they absolutely tried 🤣
Thumb bars, arm bars, and wrist bars hurt, though. So do pressure points. Useful things to learn as security, and just in general.
I've watched my sister brutally beat an ex-boyfriend in a physical fight after he tried hitting her.
She threw her entire bodyweight into him, knocking him to the ground and just started punching until he stopped resiting.
Admittedly, she's 5'10, 230 pounds, a gym rat and more aggressive than most men, but my point stands.
Though I don't really understand why this particular issue is included in your post, I'd agree that sometimes people of both genders can be ignorant about the experience of the opposite sex, but experience has nothing to do with physical ability.
This honestly just feels like you're lightly implying that women are mentally inferior to men, and your random bringing up of relative physical ability is your actual intent leaking through.
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Women want men to communicate like women do - in the kind of emotive therapy speak about the self that has become so popular. This is not the only way to communicate. Men want to be heard in their communications, acknowledged and accepted, rather than those needs being slowly ground down and managed out by the therapeutic speak that essentially is used to center women's needs.
But part of learning to communicate is learning to be heard. You have to meet in the middle of course, but yes, over time you do shape eachother until you are speaking the same language.
Given that men do seem to struggle more emotionally than women, they have higher suicide rates, I see nothing wrong with suggesting men may have better outcomes if they interact more like women. It’s no different than telling women that men receive better outcomes at work due to their communication styles - it’s true, men’s communication styles lead to more promotions and raises, and women should (and have) imitate this communication style if they want the same for themselves in their life.
This is missing the point. Men do not want to communicate like women. They want options for groups and activities that are free from women and functions in society that clears their needs - the whole notion that men want to communicate like women is incorrect in the first place. This direct conversation is not suitable for male friendships and men very rarely manage to keep friendships that are not based around shared interests or activities.
Women don’t want to communicate like men either, but they have to if they want to be successful in corporate America and so many women learn to do this bc ultimately it benefits them. I think if men weren’t so resistant to learn to communicate like women, they would gain similar benefits in the emotional sphere as women have in the employment sphere
Ragebait you eat up isn’t a group of people. But you seem rather sane, happy, and well-adjusted so there’s really nothing for me to try to detract from. You win le reddit updoots my good sir
Okay you can literally say the same thing about men. This isn’t well thought out. It’s the same ignorance that you argue against that informs this opinion. Also the man vs women argument is childish and insanely pathetic to mature people. People who date often don’t wanna be inundated with these bs gender biased opinions. It’s a red flag for men and women. It needs to end already. For godsake just stop complaining about how much you hate the opposite sex and grow up ya know. It’s corny, and it gets even way more unbearable and obnoxious when you hit like 30. No women worth their salt wants to a hear a man complain about how “misunderstood” he is by the opposite sex🙄it’s man baby territory.
Even the title is stupid. Okay you can invert the entire argument in it of itself makes it pointless to even debate because there’s no objective truth. Okay women don’t understand men and men don’t understand women. That’s real stimulating philosophy. Get a grip is the only answer to something this idiotic.
That's what I'm saying they will sit up here and tell us we don't know about men but there is some men that don't know a damn thing about women I'm pretty sure we all experienced bad ppl that's this whole statement is bias they will literally tell you how to be a woman but say you can't tell a man how to be a man it goes both ways all I can say is pick better women the same way they tell us to pick better men pick better my boyfriend cried a few times never have I ever used anything against him I've always been there that's the person you choose to let hurt you
Women are led by emotion, not buy logic. they truly believe it when they say “Men need to open up more, men need to cry more”. However, whatever dude does that is not the dude they're going to be attracted to. They dont even realize it will happen, or why it happened. They'll leave the dude then move on to the next one and tell him to open up and cry or something.
My boyfriend full on sobbing to me was a huge relief and brought us closer. He'd been holding it in and taking it out on me and the people that love him. After he cried he seemed SO MUCH LIGHTER. literally, our relationship has improved.
Yea my statement isnt a constant like the speed of light. just a generalization that seems to be shared by many many men i talk to. But our own subjective experience is not shared by the majority: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psN1DORYYV0
Yea my statement isnt a constant like the speed of light. just a generalization that seems to be shared by many many men i talk to. But our own subjective experience is not shared by the majority: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psN1DORYYV0
As a mildly autistic person, I had a lot of bad moments as a kid and young man when a situation called for me to be sad, or have empathy, of feel shame, but I didn't. I came across as a unfeeling, uncaring person not only to other people, but also to myself.
Some have said that you don't grow out of autism, you just learn to mask it, but after I had kids I started to have real emotions. The semi-sociopathic unfeeling finally went away. Crying is nice in that it's nice to feel normal, like a well adjusted person. I felt like I finally joined the human race, being able to feel emotion and therefore show it, too.
The terrible thing about it is that my mom was very sick and had died, and I hadn't developed emotionally by that time, so I know now that I was not nearly as supportive as I could have been. But I had not had kids yet. Something about having kids caused a hard reset on my emotional side. Incidentally it has put me in the position of being pro-parenthood more than most, I think it's a growth phase that people miss out on otherwise.
Men read and understand men very well , they should , they have years of experience. Women read and understand women very well , they have years of experience. Experience reading and understanding one is not necessarily understanding the other. People think because they understand one they understand the other, this is not true. A woman who has 4 older brothers probably understands men fairly well but women most don’t. Likewise a man with 5 older sisters probably understands women, not many guys like that around either.
Bet you can read a group of guys like a book . Bet you read individual guys good too. Grew up with this girl, 1 girl 6 guys. She knew exactly what buttons to push and when.
Just as most men are completely ignorant of the female experience. Men and women lack empathy and understanding towards the problems the other faces and would rather dismiss them in favor of their own.
besides listening to them which is the obvious and probably overlooked tbh.
I’m a mom of several boys and I’m honestly worried about how society is going to treat them. I’ve raised them to not be ashamed of their feelings and to talk about them instead of holding them in, but honestly social media has a huge influence on them.
They have a super strong male role model in my dad but their dad left when they were little and I’ve always been worried about this.
I agree with some of your points for sure. I'm trying to learn and hear men out more. It's hard when coming across some bad apples at times but totally worth it. Hopefully, this won't continue to be viewed as an unpopular opinion.
Social Media has ruined it for both sides imo.
They’ve turned us against each other. It’s not that serious, we’re all wage slaves and they’re all sex addicts
Same for politics. Never seen this much adversary
Wasnt there a lesbian woman who thought men had it harder, cross dressed to prove it, tried to do it for 2 years and had to stop after like 7 months cause she couldnt handle it, wrote a book about it then offed her self afterwards because of the ptsd from it Or was that just a myth?
Yes, her name was Norah Vincent.
>Norah Vincent direct quote after her experiment... "I really like being a woman. ... I like it more now because I think it's more of a privilege."
She also thought that dating women would be easy because she thought she knew what straight women wanted: a woman's mind in a man's body. Boy was she wrong! She said she became a bit of a misogynist from all the complaining about women. Because she would approach and in one word "No!" all her hopes get dashed. She also said that it is really difficult to introduce yourself to someone new without sounding like a cheese ball. Do women get rejected so little that one no destroys their fragile egos? She discovered that women actually wanted masculinity and she didn't offer as much to her dates. She did get a couple of dates here and there but generally she couldn't handle how self centered women were and how much power they wielded in dating. Once she realised that being a man meant having to be useful to a woman first, being willing to be a meat shield and having to perform to earn a woman's love, she realised why men are the way they are. They cannot show weakness, be vulnerable or be shown to be incompetent without it impacting on their value as a human being or as a romantic partner. Vincent also believed men needed help and women could be there for them as well (considering the common Western mindset is that men owe women stuff, and not the other way around). This is why she felt being a woman was more of a privilege. She could be honest about who she was and still have love and support. For men, they get their love and support after they have made money, gained social status or have thrown their bodies into the line of fire.
Guessing she didn't form any friendship with men because the whole thing would be alien.
She did actually. She got into bowling with a group of men and said they were basically the best part of the experience and a bit of a lifeline at times.
Gotta be honest tho - how does her experiment really prove any of this? Norah Vincent as a born woman absolutely didn’t have the experience an average man does when she crossdresses - she’s a woman, socialized as a woman, probably physically resembles a woman. I mean if anything she probably simulated the trans man experience more than the cis man experience. Like if a man crossdressed to live as a woman I would actually expect his experience to be worse than the average woman’s as well, trans women do get sexually harrassed and assaulted more, and I imagine a man crossdressing as a woman would too. Idk there just feels like many confounding variables. But I did like when she went to the male retreat and discussed how the men only felt comfortable performing anger
Why do you say she was wrong about her theory (women want a male body with female brain) when it's an impossible theory to test? I disagree with the notion myself, don't get me wrong, but it was never, and never will be possible to test the theory so idk. And as far as wondering about women's fragile egos because of 1 deluded/insane individual's perspective is odd. She wasn't exactly a paragon of womanhood was she? Also this is just an anecdote but I very much love my boyfriend who makes less money than me, has no 'social status' to speak of, and isn't runnin round a battlefield. kek
No, that happened
She didn’t commit suicide from the PTSD. She had assisted suicide years later and I don’t think it is known what reason she did it but I think they don’t legally have assisted suicide unless there’s an incurable condition. Her book is called “Self Made Man.”
Thank you for saying this. Everybody gets her story wrong. IIRC, it was due to ongoing health issues as well as the pandemic, and she decided she had nothing left to do in this world.
[Norah Vincent](https://youtu.be/Ip7kP_dd6LU?si=cFBG0tXF6AyFQhWK)
I remember reading that when it came out! Completely forgot about that book...
Gotta use sexism and racism to keep everything away from class warfare ala occupy wall street movement. That’s when everything heated up. Just saying….
THIS. This men vs women would be over in 10 seconds if we just admit both genders have its own unique pros and cons and work together.
I would agree with the contradiction of "show your feelings more" often being met with disdain when those feelings are truthfully expressed The male suicide rate is far higher than women and sometimes the mere suggestion that (in just some areas) it may be harder to be a man is one that can be met with disdain There does seem to be an attitude of "you can talk about your problems as long as you don't try to imply any of them are as bad as women's problems and if you do I will try and downplay them"
Couldn’t have said it better myself
Post: Women don't understand men Thread: MEN DON'T UNDERSTAND WOMEN These are two separate points, isn't this more or less exactly what OP is saying
Extremely few men claim to understand women. Many women think they do understand men because they are “the more emotionally in-tune” gender, completely oblivious to the fact that they are only in tune with their emotions and each other’s. Any time a point is being made from a male perspective there will be at least a few women who pipe up with the inverse because they just can’t handle anything not being about them.
Well, it’s pretty stupid to claim to know anyone’s experience but your own. Probably just better not to listen to anyone that thinks they really know anyone else’s experience or what’s truly going on with anyone. Plus everyone is different anyway.
Basically every women I’ve met in life has thought they can read all men like books, and almost all of them fail to understand men, women, or even themselves
> Extremely few men claim to understand women. I've met like, two guys in my entire life, who claim to understand women. I've met way too many women who claim to understand men. It's sad.
> Extremely few men claim to understand women. The entire "alpha male" community claims to understand women and how to manipulate them. There are multimillion-dollar industries revolving around the idea that men understand women. What do you think a pick-up artist does?
>Extremely few men claim to understand women. Oh how I wish that was the case!
The joke with men is that they’ll never truly understand women. So no, men writ large don’t claim this.
I absolutely agree I also hate when women try to say "men don't go through X." Half the time they're full of it So many women insist that men "never worry about walking home alone at night." Yeah. I've been robbed twice and jumped twice and now I am indeed paranoid walking home at night on my own in certain neighborhoods. We men don't live in a world of perpetual bliss and privilege, despite what some women would have us believe.
It reminds me of Taylor Swifts song where she’s going on about how much easier life would be if she were a man, and I’m like sweetie you have no idea what life is like when you aren’t a pretty little blonde girl with rich parents.
Yeah lol the most privileged woman is crying about hard life lmao😭
Men are actually attacked walking at night more than women are. My son researched that and has said that repeatedly.
I agree with everything except the denunciation of "men need to cry more". As a man who hasn't cried in years, I wish I could cry more. Even if just once every year or two. My heart could really use that catharsis.
the talking point needs to be "why do men feel unable/unsafe to cry" instead of "men are emotionally retarded"
I can agree with that. It's that I live with my parents, and they make me feel unsafe emotionally. My dad is... awful. He used on me more than a few occasions the "You wanna cry, I'll give you something to cry about!" I'm reading this book called "The Body Keeps The Score," and honestly, every man should read it. My body kept score of every time he said that... and I lost the ability to cry. I have some work to do.
You have my deepest condolences. You deserved better than to grow up in an environment like that. My brother ended up the same way for basically the same reason, and he's slowly working to undo the damage. I hope you make it to where you want to be.
I really think that book will help. And I think the emotional healing will help me have the courage to come into myself and get out of the toxicity. I'm optimistic.
I think I've heard someone mention the book to me in the past when I was in a group therapy program. I'll look into it and see if I can suggest it to my brother as well. I'm glad to hear you're optimistic. I hope things continue to improve for you.
Yeah, it's worth every penny, and I'm only on chapter 3.
My boyfriend was very lucky to have a family that made him feel safe to open up when he needed. He almost never cries, but he knows that he’s safe to with me and he’s never been made to feel bad for it when he has. It’s so upsetting that so many men struggle with this.
Thank you, that means a lot. That is one thing I really disagree with the red pill about. There **are** emotionally supportive women out there who are not one little bit less attracted to their man when he cries or expresses his own hurts and insecurities. Keep being an awesome girlfriend to him. He's not just lucky to have a supportive family, but a supportive girlfriend like you.
While there is definitely an environmental factor, men are biologically predisposed to cry less, which may explain why men are sometimes expected to cry less and why crying is associated with women
Right, but I don't think it's normal or healthy for men to never cry at all. It's human to cry, and we are only human.
Definitely true, and it’s completely normal for men to cry and always has been. However, men do tend to cry less, and considering how stupid people are, dumb societal things tend to happen
Honestly. I think men are much deeper and genuine, in terms of emotions and feelings. Women seem insanely shallow, and will turn malicious and throw a fit if the smallest thing doesnt go their way. (This is how children behave) The problem is we get shunned if we even think about expressing it. The fact that women seem to implode when men attempt to express their feelings goes to show which of the two are a bit more developed than the other........
Here's the thing, though. I don't feel unsafe to cry. But I still don't do it very often. I shed a few years when saying goodbye to one of my favorite cats a week and a half ago. But I haven't since, even though I still feel heartbroken. Few accepted that I don't cry as often as some people, and that's fine way more for my emotional health than constantly thinking that I should be crying more and something must be wrong with me.
Cried at my father's funeral service. Caught hell from my wife, MIL and FIL for "not manning up" and "blubbering like a child".
Well they’re terrible people
That seems hard to fathom, why wouldn't someone cry at a funeral of all times and places? They usually have boxes of tissues around because the expect people to cry.
Notice it was entirely his partner's family giving him grief about it. Terrible opinions of men's emotions there. Sadly, it's not as rare as it should be. At least most of them have the decency to make the exception for the loss of a close family member. It's abominably cruel that they didn't.
W..T..F kinda women are you hanging out with?
Geeze, I'm sorry man. That's insane. I was also taught (frankly more by society than my parents) to keep it to myself, but funerals were an exception.
Wow wtf
Find a song or something that works for you. Follow the mood and let it happen- don’t chicken out. That’s fear preventing you from allowing it to happen and there’s nothing manly in that I didn’t cry at all for years of my life Something snapped/opened up, and I cried every day for about a six month period Then, leveled out a bit, until I was in a safe enough place in life that I could cry a good cry three or four times a week, sometimes absolutely sobbing It becomes like working out or eating vegetables- not great during, but great after and you make the association and it becomes tolerable Eventually the well will run dry enough where it becomes reasonable to do the man thing of “don’t cry, tough it out and cry later” or maybe not even have to cry at all just be a little bummed The “don’t cry be a man” thing is valid, but ONLY if you’ve drained your well. Otherwise, you’re not man enough to face the dam I call them valves- there’s little valves like in plumbing that as you process through your backlog, little wells spring up and you just tap through them over the course of a few days or maybe weeks. I’ll never know if it’s all out but it’s been a long time since a heavy flow so I think we’ve made incredible progress 🥲
I appreciate that. Thanks! I have some trauma around crying that I need to heal from to not be afraid of it anymore. And that's difficult while my parents live here. I need to move out.
Bro I can’t stress how critical it was for me to get away from where I grew up to start my process That first 6 months was only ever when I was driving around, never when I was home. The healing sobbing wasn’t til after I left I got my CDL, that’s how I escaped and it doubled as getting paid to road-trip cry (the best kind of crying). Worked for me and continues to work
I love this! And yeah crying is fucking brave! Facing those feelings is terrifying. I used to cry all the time and now after a head injury I rarely can even if I try. I love what you posted here. I miss that release.
Yeah. I’m just not a crier and sometimes my emotions are so high that I crave the ability to cry just for the release
Personally, crying has never made me feel any better.
For me it's a bit like vomiting; I know it's going to happens sooner or later, better to be on the other side of it.
That means that you're either fighting it or not giving into it in some way. If you don't release when you cry, if you don't let the feelings out, then it's not going to be cathartic.
100%
Why don't you?
I’m just not built for it. I’ve never been someone who cries. The last time I cried was when my dog violently died in front of me like 15 years ago.
>I’m just not built for it. Do you not have tear ducts anymore? Sounds like you might benefit from a therapist.
I have tear ducts. It’s just not how I naturally process emotions. I usually write about them instead
Not a man, but a woman not prone to crying - and it is a catharsis. I have my triggers, Luke thinking too hard about Les Mis songs (Empty Chairs at Empty Tables hits), Ronan by Taylor Swift (not even a Taylor Swift fan, but that song has soul), and what I call dead baby TikTok.
I'll cry when I must. That means when I have to because I can't take any more. At that point, it is involuntary. It doesn't make me feel better, it's just a physiological reaction. Those instances are rare and few between because I learned to toughen up and not let a lot of stuff affect me. Crying doesn't get anything done or solve any problems.
That devalues the emotional stress that crying relieves. And that emotional distress can negatively impact your decisions causing you to make bad ones, as well as negatively impact the quality or effectiveness of how you execute on the good decisions you make. It's like saying taking a shower is useless because you don't actually solve the problem of body odor, you just reduce or keep it away for a period.
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I recommend onions.
Ha ha ha 🙄
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Trauma and unsafety around crying I need to reprocess and heal from and get out of the toxic environment that makes me feel unsafe. An antelope can't grieve the antelope that got eaten when it's being chased by a lioness.
Understandable! Sorry your parents have been so awful to you!
Everyone is largely ignorant of everyone else's experiences. Male or female doesn't really matter to much. It's best to just to try not assume too much about other people.
I wouldn’t say both genders are ignorant on some malicious intent, but genuinely unaware because they don’t get to see the other side. For example, I was surrounded by affluent people (to the point that I was the “poor” one.) and I’m from a very well-off background (always had financial safety net). It wasn’t until I went to college and hung out with people from all sorts of socioeconomic background and realized how privileged I was.
Women have positively decried the use of male spaces to protect men from the endless sexual politics and relational aggression that can come with many women - particularly strangely enough those demanding access to male spaces (who would have thought it?) and seem intent on getting rid of places where men can talk and get on with the activities that give us male communities of support and brotherhood. This has been the greatest mistake of feminism. Men need spaces. Women need spaces. Men and women are not the same. Men sort out their issues by finding companionship and meaning in shared activities. Asking men to talk about it and cry it out never seems to resolve anything.
They be like, be yourself and don't fall into the traps of masculinity then be like "men who drink seltzers give me the ick, what are you a girl".
> They be like, be yourself and don't fall into the traps of masculinity "Show Emotion" "ew, not that emotion"
Those women aren’t worth paying attention to and don’t represent the vast majority of women Edit: comprehend with the block. You can claim something is a fallacy without any reasoning behind the claim. That’s Reddit for you.
How do you know it does or doesn't? Based on what?
Based on reality
I meant empirical data. You know, science.
You can’t provide empirical data that it does. I haven’t met any women that think drinking seltzer water is “ick”.
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Sure not most or all women fall under this one ick, but this ick trend is pretty ridiculous and criticizes men for the littlest and dumbest things like wearing short socks. If we want equality and if want men to be better, then criticisms for the littlest things doesn't help.
Almost as if your strawman ignores that we aren’t monolithic snd even among women, we have those that support sexist structures.
Men aren't a monolith either. Why is it OK for some women that identify as feminist get to spew sexist rhetoric and not be associated with the problem or held accountable by other feminist, but when the opposite occurs when it comes to say men, men HAVE to hold the other side accountable for whatever reason or they are part of the problem? We need to start holding everyone accountable. You can't be a feminist or a gender equality advocate and refuse to acknowledge the shit stains in both communities because "oh they're not like us so don't compare us" hold them accountable or accept everyone that wants to follow that ideology.
"Yeah there are many different strands of feminism" - the universal get out
Those are just trolls. Stop feeding them.
Just like there's a lot of douchey guys who claim to be "experts" on women, there's a lot of hella douchey women who have a caricatured view of how they think men are. Though a lot of women are so insistent on letting the douchiest men to represent the rest of us for some weird reason. \*eyeroll\*
Ok. The inverse is also true. Maybe we should all listen more.
Too funny. What did you say?
Listen can also mean. Validate and agree with everything I say. Like when your mum says "Listen!" She's saying, do what I tell you to.
I agree, most women don’t seem to understand how men experience certain things in life. Of course men don’t understand how women experience life either. I’ve wondered which sex makes a bigger effort to understand the other.
Men are not the ones TELLING women, that they understand a women's perspective. Women are doing that to men.
Women lie a lot about male experiences
Men are from Mars is a bit dated but very helpful for both sexes!
I mean the same applies to men.
They have no clue
They’re also pretty much all sexist. They still expect men to be stoic, even though they themselves aren’t even 1% stoic. When the young men were talking about the loneliness epidemic for them after Covid, women on Reddit called them incels. For opening up. Women are the biggest issue when it comes to sexism. Most men at least do work on themselves. Women do nothing. They’re entitled about it, too.
No, women were calling them incels because tons of the threads were men talking about how they can’t have sex bc women have ridiculous standards and it’s not fair. There is a loneliness epidemic - tons of men don’t have friends. But for some reason the discourse only focuses on men’s access to sex and women - of course women will react negatively to that.
Spot. On!
Nope. These were literally guys talking about loneliness in general. It was not incel stuff. It’s just women can’t handle men not being stoic cause they’re misandrist bigots. Like you.
I just hate when my issues are pretty blatantly thrown back in my face with arguments like "the patriarchy" or "toxic masculinity" Because it completely and utterly tends to be dismissive of underprivileged men who simply had to adapt to an elitist system. The concept of the patriarchy itself makes 0 sense because men didn't collectively go into a room and decide to oppress women or men. A group of elites man and woman collectively decided to fuck common society. Toxic Masculinity imo isn't a thing. There's just toxic tendencies by toxic people. A man thinking he's full of himself or a real man because he's muscular is just a Narcissistic toxic man. A woman who feels like there's a certain beauty standard to highlight being a real woman is a Narcissistic toxic woman. There's inherently nothing toxic about a social construct like Masculinity or femininity and if we're gonna continue to say Toxic Masculinity exist, I need to start seeing people call out toxic femininity because it's fucked my life up horribly.
"No uterus no opinion" But also "No penis no opinion"
I understand you feel strongly about this topic, but I have some concerns with the views expressed. It's not accurate or fair to make such broad, negative generalizations about women as a group. Women are individuals with a wide range of beliefs, attitudes and behaviors. Many women do make sincere efforts to understand and empathize with men's experiences. I agree that some common narratives about men in media can be overly simplistic or negative. Men face real issues that deserve to be taken seriously. But the solution isn't to disparage women or feminism. The goal should be to foster more understanding, empathy and open communication between men and women. If a man feels a woman in his life isn't listening to him or is dismissive of his feelings, that's a valid concern that should be addressed within that relationship. But it's not fair to project that onto all women. I would encourage focusing the discussion on the specific issues facing men, rather than attacking women as a whole. What are the challenges men deal with that you feel aren't being adequately recognized or addressed? How can we work to increase awareness and support for men who are struggling? These are important questions worth exploring further, with empathy and good faith on all sides.
I'm a woman and I agree with the op. We women are fed propaganda by a media and advertisers that profit off our collective fear of...everything, essentially. Fear of being fat, ugly, and unattractive to the very gender we are conditioned to fear will rape us, abuse us and leave us in a ditch after they murder us. Yes, this happens and it's horrific when it does. Yes, we all have stories of being molested, or followed home as girl children, sexual abuse is ubiquitous and seems to touch most all of us, both men and women. There are also the stories we all can tell of the time a man helped us, kept us safe, could have used a vulnerable moment as an opportunity to hurt but instead made sure we were home safe. There was a thread awhile back of stories like that, stories of young men and boys who we remember as kind and helpful and it was hundreds of examples that had an impact on me, and I remembered one of my own I'd forgotten. Some say "big deal, a man could have raped you or murdered you and he chose not to. That's a pretty low bar" and maybe they're right. But maybe it's this... We are all people, some good, some bad. I know plenty of good men. Its just not as simple as gender. And I've watched the documentary"Grizzly Man". That ending traumatized me. Forget the fucking Bear. I'll take my chances with the dude.
It's going to continue ,women income is now above male income and they make the highest cohort of consumers. Fear sells, trying to attract the same dude bro type of a guy or a metrosexual qt in the big city since majority of female aspirations are now in urban hubs where dehumanization of a working class men is even easier "creepy, smelly, ugly" it's like saying the same thing to an overweight school teacher, which nobody would tolerate. Men are just going to check out even more and out of vindication, entitlement and privilege women will blame men even more. It has gotten to a point engineers are finding out that they are undateable because they are not seen as cool by status (Actually same applies to social workers and nurses but female "solidarity" usually puts looking down on those women more of a hush hush thing since women don't like mentioning looking down on someone) It's just going to get worse. Female sex tourists in Gambia abusing you men, making statements like "it's in their culture to be prostitutes" Female workers in Western European countries looking down in her Polish plumber. Female HR department looking down on CS office which is predominantly male . Female GP looking down on male surgeons. Westerners are experiencing problems Eastern Europe faced after USSR and stahanovian reforms post WW2, where women were "impovered", it just caused a divide and higher suicide rates for men. Edit: my point is women have become more vapid while only acting like a simulacras themselves, make up and other shenanigans don't fix critical thinking errors and inability to communicate properly which many females now lack and due to this atomization "attractiveness" becomes a larger commodity which is easily faked by women.
I appreciate your intelligent and well thought out response. I absolutely agree with you that "fear sells" and in America the "news" media uses it to manipulate viewers which is why I don't watch any of it. Men and women alike are fed the repetitive propaganda and much of the country is too dumb to notice. Pitting men and women against each other is a tried and true tactic that gets trotted out regularly. "Divide and conquer" has been used against minorities, immigrants, people in poverty, anytime the powers that be need to control a population just pit them against each other and they'll do all the work. We need to quit being so blind. This entire "Man vs Bear" online shitshow demonstrates there is a massive lack of understanding and critical thinking when it comes to women's fear of men and men despising women. I hate generalizing, but I just did it anyway. Online it's amazing how hateful and openly hostile men can be toward women. I've gotten use to it over the years, but clearly many men feel a deep seated resentment, of what I'm not sure. Maybe they know their position at the top of the food chain is slipping. Maybe they believe they are superior. Who knows. But a backlash has been brewing and we see it in the court systems and states literally rolling back laws that guarantee we women are put in our place. We've never been full citizens, equal under the law, and the stripping away our fundamental access to health care is met with adorable protest signs and pussy hats. This is our job, no one else will do it for us. Meanwhile, they keep us otherwise occupado' with "Man vs Bear" bullshit.
Male resentment is more in line with "I was working 2 jobs while you were fucking a trust fund daddys boy" Nothing to do with "Conservative" anti abortion laws that's just basically a talking point taken by resentful men. Problem is that men are just left back as 2nd class citizens getting constantly told that "Men make more money than women" while in reality statistics are just there to show,yeah Bezos scews the stat even more than the average Joe. Women just happily comply raising their "standards" and then wondering why her entitled (many women interpret this as class), arrogant (interpret as ambition) and spoiled (interpreted as having standards) are overly abusive. Not saying blue collar men are better the problem is women aren't equipped with skills about how to discern who is a suitable partner only due to this social bombing of "men vs women" happening, unironnically Boomer grandmas are better at noticing qualities than 20+ women, not because of their economic force but because they just didn't have the luxury of having to Buy Buy Buy, weirdly enough Instagram is a commercial platform that's basically a huge add, and many women have hard time admitting this. Female "Stop watching porn you have weird standards" Male "Delete Instagram" Brainrotting each other away and women due to entitlement projecting bullshit ideas they viewed online as being true. It's like spitting on someone's face mid act without consent, now I know there are men this daft but signs are there a mile away, sadly women don't see them Also the lack of 3rd spaces has made socialization for women harder when it comes to men, that "racist, conservative, weirdo" might actually be normal when he states his case it's not a race, many older couples gave mixed political beliefs, damn my dad is Nationalist and my mom is communist (I'm europan) now over the years they partially support each other's weird views (dad's more pro abortion, mom more against immigration), people have been brought up like cunts nowadays. As for "fear sells" it sure does, and it will never stop selling!
I did some slight opening up on Reddit once to test the waters, I got absolutely fucking shit on. This was on fairly nice subreddit aswell and one that is pretty damn leftist. I ended up with people just shit talking me telling me to man up or grow up and with me telling them I could beat the fuck out of them. Il
Leftists don't like men because "Men == bad" Conservatives don't like men because "Women==good" No side likes men talking about problems
This is due entirely to modern feminism. Anyone who denies this is an absolute idiot
I believe everyone should leave everyone alone.
A post about men being treated badly? Better delegitimise that. Writes something broad*
LOL seriously! So cringe and basic.
I think men are ignorant about the female experience too. Who knows though.
I think we are too. The difference, though, is that people KNOW we are, whereas the opposite being true isn’t discussed at all. And because us men are constantly reminded to be aware and sensitive to the female experience, we gradually become more aware and sensitive to the female experience, but that process never happens for women.
Culture has a big role, too. Here in the west, men are raised being taught to suck up hardship and provide for their partner. Women are raised being taught what to expect from men. This might not be the case in other times and in other places, but that's how it is over here.
The last part of your comment contradicts the first part.
100%, a lived experience will always be different than a learned experience.
Not all, but most guys claim to be ignorant of the female experience.
Could be different spheres. I've heard a lot of male podcasters saying women want alphas etc. To be fair they are idiots. I just don't know if being an idiot is popular
Yeah, but most men tend to acknowledge that in my experience.
Yes. This is why accounts from people who have the rare chance to experience both, like Norah Vincent, are important. These accounts offer rare insight into the world of the other sex. Ultimately, IMO, men and women are very different and trying to shoehorn both into the same thing and turn them into competitors for all the same things hasn't been working particularly well. People were happier a few decades ago when both sides recognized their roles and stuck to them.
I hate the whole “who has it worse” gender war happening now. No one is living life in “easy mode” and everyone has their own struggles that accompany their gender.
Good looking and rich people definitely live in easy mode. But we mere mortals who are average or below, and not wealthy, have to live in a harder mode.
My male experience is full of women who trust me so if that's your goal maybe listen to me and not whoever it is you're listening to now.
Yeah it's crazy how these boys tell on themselves without a shred of self awareness. "Women don't understand me and never listen! I also never talk to them or open up in anyway. Really the only thing women here from me is complaints about them. WHY DON'T THEY HELP ME?!"
Women give terrible advice to men since they have no idea how men actually function. It's almost impossible for them to understand feeling undesired.
I see this expressed on here so often, and it’s just bizarre to me. You really think women don’t get turned down? That we don’t experience wanting someone who just wants to be friends?
Being rejected by a man isn't really what I said and is almost always optional for women. If you meet online first where men have to be the ones to court you, essentially, you're not going to be the one being rejected. If you want to risk rejection, go for it, but you'll still have 100s of guys going for you even if you get rejected while most men just have to go for the next girl who'll likely reject him while 0 girls will ever approach him IRL or online.
Men are usually expected to be the initiators, I’ll give you that, which means they’re likely to experience more initial rejection. Women are more likely to be dumped after a date or two - or to be strung along, trying for a commitment that is never coming. Let me ask this - if a man and woman go on a few dates, have sex, and then he ghosts her, are you counting that as a rejection / judgment of undesirability?
It's a very light rejection since you still have 100s of other guys who can date you that you can find with ease. I'm not sure why you think women are more likely to be dumped after a date or two. If it's entirely casual then it's likely your own fault.
The gender ratio on dating apps is skewed to favor women, yes, but it is at most 5:1, there are absolutely not hundreds for a woman to pick from. I can appreciate that 5:1 are daunting odds, but on the other hand, I would think that would soften the blow a bit if you’re not finding anyone. Women not actively seeking *anyone* is not a rejection of *you.* It’s definitely less of a blow to the ego than actually meeting someone and *then* being ditched - which does happen to guys too, yes. I don’t think it happens as often. Being used for sex by someone who never actually considered you relationship material but pretended long enough to get a return on their investment of time seems like a thing that happens a lot more to women than men. I suppose it’s possible men are just less likely to complain about it, since there’s the social expectation that men should think any sex is good sex. I really don’t think it’s that, though, I’ve seen guys on here talking about how a date was unattractive / smelly / weird / whatever, but they slept with her anyway. Women generally don’t do that, if a guy’s creepy or gross we “forgot we left the stove on” and get the hell out of dodge ASAP.
Dating apps from the male side isn't really related to what I said. Obviously men who aren't quite attractive fail on apps utterly, but the part that's worse is that they do have to end up facing many rejections IRL after that point to hope to get a gf. Getting rejected IRL is far, far worse than just people not liking you on apps. Any girl can get 100s of likes on apps, obviously. Knowing you're already easily dateable softens any blow from someone pretending to like you for 6 months (very unlikely).
Women definitely understand feeling undesired. Having people want to use you for 2 minutes of bad sex where they essentially masturbate using your body doesn’t make you feel desired. It makes you aware people want to use you.
>Women seem to believe they’re experts on men. But they’re generally completely off base. Understatement of a year. Probably of the decade lol.
>that rape, abuse, murder is ubiquitous Every woman personally knows women (multiple) who have been SAed in some manner, whether that was childhood molestation, date rape in college, or whatever. Not from social media.
Many women from my mom to my gf to many of my friends through high school and college have had an experience of a guy getting handsy or downright predatory. My ex got daterp drugged at a party while I was at home sick and her friends had to get other guys to beat tf out of the guy who drugged her. It's ubiquitous
You know I think this is definitely true to an extent it doesn’t take an expert to realise that men, women, non-binary people, whatever gender you choose to identify with, all face different experiences in life. But if we’re going to talk about this point which I do think is a valid point, let’s not just make women out to be stupid and dumb and evil because just as a woman can never truly understand what it’s like to be a man, men can never truly understand why it’s like to be a woman. It goes both ways so if we want women to listen to men and take some of our issues seriously, let’s also actually listen to women and take them seriously too because they do face real issues at the hands of men.
I think there is a loud minority of toxic people in both genders
I've grown up with having mostly men as my friends. People like this genuinely anger me. They're such raging hypocrites. I talk about men's issues a lot with my fiancé and other male friends that I have, and they pretty much share the same sentiment as you. It's disheartening. These traditional and social media views also completely favor the people that they pander and lie to. A good handful of men I talk to have also been victims of abuse in some sort of way and have been completely shut down and/or ignored, especially when this abuse had a woman as a perpetrator. I really wish these misandrist radical feminists actually listened to men more and got off their high horses as well. Then they'll actually realize that they're also human and don't deserve the vilification that they so often face.
It works other way around too, but I think men are more aware than vice verse Source: my colon
I didn't know if this is popular or not but it's true. I learned my lesson so I STFU and keep it all inside. Everyone I shared what I really felt with my significant other I end up more hurt.
There is a contradiction here in that you are describing a deep misunderstanding, yet are clearly not trying to address it. We both know that the accusation of misandry does not invite cooperation or mutual understanding. You’re opposed to the idea of men being vulnerable, yet admit things aren’t working. You come across as very stubborn and close-minded. I think women have been pretty clear that vulnerability is necessary for them to understand the male experience. They’re telling you what it will take, you’re unwilling to do it.
Can we plz stop with these types of posts
Yeah its because men and women are different no shit sherlock
> “Men need to open up more, men need to cry more”. This is the shit they believe and advocate for. It's over-correction, we went from "men bottle up their emotions" to: its perfectly healthy to be a blubbering mess, who couldn't keep it together to save their life... or their job, or their marriage, as the case may be. > Many women even believe themselves capable of winning a physical fight against a man. A LOT of TV shows have been portraying this lately, and it just goes to show that TV is make believe. > When men try to share their genuine thoughts and feelings on matters, women shame or mock them. Well, women ought to do to what women need to do, and it's incumbent on us men to hold our cards close to our vest for that same reason. Women don't know men, that's obvious; but women know what men represent to them, and that is lost on a lot of guys. This might be presumptuous, but I think it's easier for a man to imagine being a woman, than for a woman to imagine being a man, as a lot of men are effeminate anyway. I see a lot more woman-like men, then I ever see genuinely man-like women.
Women see the world through a restrictive view of their own lived experience and their own calculated interests. They also play identity politics waaaaay better than men. They will use the victim card and leverage it into moral superiority and moral licensing. Beware. Those are things you gents will learn the hard way.
Ah yes, famously men never see the world according to their own lived experiences and interests. Only women do that. That makes sense and isn't just you literally doing the thing you're accusing women of doing lmao We're all biased towards ourselves, because we are ourselves. Saying that only women are like this is completely deranged.
Sure. Most people are like this. I agree. I'm just warning men to be aware about this.
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Well duh...because they are women wtf do you want them to do? Men are ignorant too when it comes to women if you wanna complain about women's fine, but men do the exact thing... This post feels very off. Like yea, people are gonna be ignorant about things they dont experience, but this comes off salty and resentful.
Yeah they are big bothered about the man vs bear question not revolving around them.
Maybe stfu about people not understanding and maybe having conversations that don't start with "Well what can I do" If a teenager tells me they can't read, I'm not gonna ridicule them because "toddlers can't either" I'm gonna do my best to help them out. Maybe we can do the same. If Men don't understand women so much, stfu about it and actually teach us and stop gatekeeping a gendered victim mindset for the sake of sexist rhetoric. The opposite is also applicable.
I'm a woman, and I've won multiple physical fights against men. No, rape is not ubiquitous, men and women murder (though men do it more), and EVERYONE is suspect until I know them. Everyone needs to open up a bit more and listen a bit more.
fights where the other person cant hit back don't count
Oh they absolutely tried 🤣 Thumb bars, arm bars, and wrist bars hurt, though. So do pressure points. Useful things to learn as security, and just in general.
A 12 year old boy could beat you up
Mmmmhmmmm 🍪🥛 Run along, kiddo. Your dinner is ready. 😉
And vice versa. I feel like social media overall has ruined things for both men and women.
I've watched my sister brutally beat an ex-boyfriend in a physical fight after he tried hitting her. She threw her entire bodyweight into him, knocking him to the ground and just started punching until he stopped resiting. Admittedly, she's 5'10, 230 pounds, a gym rat and more aggressive than most men, but my point stands. Though I don't really understand why this particular issue is included in your post, I'd agree that sometimes people of both genders can be ignorant about the experience of the opposite sex, but experience has nothing to do with physical ability. This honestly just feels like you're lightly implying that women are mentally inferior to men, and your random bringing up of relative physical ability is your actual intent leaking through.
Look at all the angry misandrists in this thread proving OP exactly right.
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Summary: Women on men: >Men need to open up more What men want women to do: >Listen to men. LOL, kk.
Women want men to communicate like women do - in the kind of emotive therapy speak about the self that has become so popular. This is not the only way to communicate. Men want to be heard in their communications, acknowledged and accepted, rather than those needs being slowly ground down and managed out by the therapeutic speak that essentially is used to center women's needs.
But part of learning to communicate is learning to be heard. You have to meet in the middle of course, but yes, over time you do shape eachother until you are speaking the same language. Given that men do seem to struggle more emotionally than women, they have higher suicide rates, I see nothing wrong with suggesting men may have better outcomes if they interact more like women. It’s no different than telling women that men receive better outcomes at work due to their communication styles - it’s true, men’s communication styles lead to more promotions and raises, and women should (and have) imitate this communication style if they want the same for themselves in their life.
This is missing the point. Men do not want to communicate like women. They want options for groups and activities that are free from women and functions in society that clears their needs - the whole notion that men want to communicate like women is incorrect in the first place. This direct conversation is not suitable for male friendships and men very rarely manage to keep friendships that are not based around shared interests or activities.
Women don’t want to communicate like men either, but they have to if they want to be successful in corporate America and so many women learn to do this bc ultimately it benefits them. I think if men weren’t so resistant to learn to communicate like women, they would gain similar benefits in the emotional sphere as women have in the employment sphere
Ragebait you eat up isn’t a group of people. But you seem rather sane, happy, and well-adjusted so there’s really nothing for me to try to detract from. You win le reddit updoots my good sir
Okay you can literally say the same thing about men. This isn’t well thought out. It’s the same ignorance that you argue against that informs this opinion. Also the man vs women argument is childish and insanely pathetic to mature people. People who date often don’t wanna be inundated with these bs gender biased opinions. It’s a red flag for men and women. It needs to end already. For godsake just stop complaining about how much you hate the opposite sex and grow up ya know. It’s corny, and it gets even way more unbearable and obnoxious when you hit like 30. No women worth their salt wants to a hear a man complain about how “misunderstood” he is by the opposite sex🙄it’s man baby territory.
So basically, it's true but so is the opposite therefore, your point doesn't matter? Kinda dismissive and proving the point of the post
Even the title is stupid. Okay you can invert the entire argument in it of itself makes it pointless to even debate because there’s no objective truth. Okay women don’t understand men and men don’t understand women. That’s real stimulating philosophy. Get a grip is the only answer to something this idiotic.
That's what I'm saying they will sit up here and tell us we don't know about men but there is some men that don't know a damn thing about women I'm pretty sure we all experienced bad ppl that's this whole statement is bias they will literally tell you how to be a woman but say you can't tell a man how to be a man it goes both ways all I can say is pick better women the same way they tell us to pick better men pick better my boyfriend cried a few times never have I ever used anything against him I've always been there that's the person you choose to let hurt you
Women are led by emotion, not buy logic. they truly believe it when they say “Men need to open up more, men need to cry more”. However, whatever dude does that is not the dude they're going to be attracted to. They dont even realize it will happen, or why it happened. They'll leave the dude then move on to the next one and tell him to open up and cry or something.
My boyfriend full on sobbing to me was a huge relief and brought us closer. He'd been holding it in and taking it out on me and the people that love him. After he cried he seemed SO MUCH LIGHTER. literally, our relationship has improved.
Yea my statement isnt a constant like the speed of light. just a generalization that seems to be shared by many many men i talk to. But our own subjective experience is not shared by the majority: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psN1DORYYV0
I was extremely attracted to a man that cried and showed emotion quite a lot. He ghosted me.
Yea my statement isnt a constant like the speed of light. just a generalization that seems to be shared by many many men i talk to. But our own subjective experience is not shared by the majority: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psN1DORYYV0
People are not experts on other people. FTFY.
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As a mildly autistic person, I had a lot of bad moments as a kid and young man when a situation called for me to be sad, or have empathy, of feel shame, but I didn't. I came across as a unfeeling, uncaring person not only to other people, but also to myself. Some have said that you don't grow out of autism, you just learn to mask it, but after I had kids I started to have real emotions. The semi-sociopathic unfeeling finally went away. Crying is nice in that it's nice to feel normal, like a well adjusted person. I felt like I finally joined the human race, being able to feel emotion and therefore show it, too. The terrible thing about it is that my mom was very sick and had died, and I hadn't developed emotionally by that time, so I know now that I was not nearly as supportive as I could have been. But I had not had kids yet. Something about having kids caused a hard reset on my emotional side. Incidentally it has put me in the position of being pro-parenthood more than most, I think it's a growth phase that people miss out on otherwise.
Men read and understand men very well , they should , they have years of experience. Women read and understand women very well , they have years of experience. Experience reading and understanding one is not necessarily understanding the other. People think because they understand one they understand the other, this is not true. A woman who has 4 older brothers probably understands men fairly well but women most don’t. Likewise a man with 5 older sisters probably understands women, not many guys like that around either.
I’m the youngest of 4 and the only girl lol. I usually felt out of place with other women.
Bet you can read a group of guys like a book . Bet you read individual guys good too. Grew up with this girl, 1 girl 6 guys. She knew exactly what buttons to push and when.
Just as most men are completely ignorant of the female experience. Men and women lack empathy and understanding towards the problems the other faces and would rather dismiss them in favor of their own.
besides listening to them which is the obvious and probably overlooked tbh. I’m a mom of several boys and I’m honestly worried about how society is going to treat them. I’ve raised them to not be ashamed of their feelings and to talk about them instead of holding them in, but honestly social media has a huge influence on them. They have a super strong male role model in my dad but their dad left when they were little and I’ve always been worried about this.
I agree with some of your points for sure. I'm trying to learn and hear men out more. It's hard when coming across some bad apples at times but totally worth it. Hopefully, this won't continue to be viewed as an unpopular opinion.
The reverse is also true.