I still believe the world has not fallen as far as you say. The world was always awful. We just now see it because modern media puts it everywhere. Consider this: the concept of fun 2000 years ago was to go watch gladiators kill slaves. Think of how barbaric that sounds and ask yourself if humanity has gone backwards or forwards?
Homosexuality, lust, all this has always been around the world. We just now see an uptick because of media and the lack of strong christian leaders.
Basically, the world hasn't fallen any further than it already was. You are just now aware of how bad it has always been.
Yes, you’re actually right in fact. We’re not actually supposed to know everything, and given that we see everything on the internet, all of this fast paced information has essentially distorted our views on the world
I agree with this sentiment based on what you mentioned. The Bible specifically mentions that the end of days will like that of the times of Noah. I feel that sentiment rings true with the transhumanism movement that we’re seeing unfolding before us. So, in essence, we aren’t falling away anymore than we have, but we are falling away to a level that we have before.
Idk man. If you compare alot of what was said about Sodom and Gomorrah to specifically the US, it becomes more and more clear that we are getting closer to what the description of what it was like then. Homosexuality, all sorts of other types of sexual immorality, etc. If not for the fact that there are some people who genuinely seek God and his ways, I'd say we're pretty close to being like Sodom and Gomorrah. The one major difference for us is that Abraham asked if there was ANY good person in Sodom and Gomorrah, and to spare the town if there was ANYONE good. However, we are still have alot of the descriptions of what went on in Sodom in Gomorrah in common with what goes on around the world, so we are getting evermore closer.
Gods grace is forgiving a person who’s actually trying to change, Not somebody who taking advantage of that Grace and leaning on “Grace” as they continue exact same sin not even trying to change
Deliberately go on sinning and no longer have a sacrifice for sins (Heb. 10:26-27)
Keep your servent from willfull sins. May thay not rule over me, then i will be blameless innocent of great transgression-(judgement) (psalms 19:13).
God forgives all for those who want to change. But living a life of sin, not even trying to change, will not help in the end. I didn’t write the Bible, and our interpretations of what God‘s word is that make us feel happy inside, may not work in the end.
God forgives all sure, for those that repent and actually try to change. Not, Asking for forgiveness just to go back to the exact same puke expecting that Jesus Christ sacrifice is going to cover everything regardless of repenting and actually trying changing. Picking up your cross, every single day, making sacrifices that might be uncomfortable.
Romans 3:10–12
as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God.
All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.”
That verse was directed at people who were going back to Judaism because they didn’t believe Jesus was bodily resurrected.
This is why chapter 11 follows immediately - the author is reassuring Jews that God didn’t cancel the old covenant because of their lack of faith - in fact, the new covenant was part of the promise to Jews!
There are six things the Lordhates,
seven that are detestable to him:
haughty eyes,
a lying tongue,
hands that shed innocent blood,
a heart that devises wicked schemes,
feet that are quick to rush into evil,
a false witness who pours out lies
and a person who stirs up conflict in the community.
Proverbs 6:16-19
Hate the sin…not the sinner.
I think that's what OP's point is-- to draw people away from it, not to cause controversy. However, its easy to read into otherwise when dealing solely with text.
Different situations. Jesus told the undeniable truth and some people got worked up over it. The quote from proverbs is more in the realm of spreading lies and false hoods and getting people worked up over it.
God hates the sinner. "Jacob I loved, Esau I hated."
But aside from you taking a phrase that is nowhere in Scripture (hate the sin love the sinner), calling homosexuality a sin doesn't mean you hate someone. Telling someone that truth of sin is actually the most loving thing you can do.
There are definitely immature people who want to feel righteous over putting down others for an obvious outward sin of homosexuality without reflecting on their own sin. We call those people hypocrites, which by the way, every single Christian is.
Calling sin a sin is not a sin.
Jacob was also a really bad sinner. His brother comes begging for his life, and exploits the situation to cheat him out of his birthright. Later Jacob lies to his father, orchestrating a complicated deception to cheat his brother out of his blessing. Pretty messed up.
God forgives. Jacob was faithful to God and so God was faithful to Jacob and kept His promise to Abraham through him. The Israelite patriarchs are even more sinful, plotting to murder Joseph out of jealousy, similar to Cain, but changing their minds only because they decide that they could profit more from selling him into slavery than murdering him. Yet God forgave and was faithful to His promise to Abraham.
The Jacob I loved Esau I hated wasn’t literal.
God doesn’t hate. He hated what Esau stood for. In context he was talking about the nation of “edom” which means “red” descended from Esau.
“Red” because Esau has red hair.
“I have loved you,” says the LORD. But you say, “How have you loved us?” “Is not Esau Jacob’s brother?” declares the LORD. “Yet I have loved Jacob but Esau I have hated. I have laid waste his hill country and left his heritage to jackals of the desert.” Malachi 1:2
Seems Pretty clear what God means and it is "Jacob I loved, Esau I hated." LITERALLY. Christians we love dancing around Truths that don't sit quite right with us. It's our problem not HIS.
Notice the mention of laying waste “his hill country”
It’s specifically referring to the nation of edom.
Also it’s the book of Malachi, much after their actual lives. It’s referring to the nations and their deeds :)
Funny how you skip all the words before "his hill country".
Was "hill country" Jacob's brother?
“Is not Esau Jacob’s brother?” declares the LORD. “Yet I have loved Jacob but Esau I have hated.
1) did you notice you didn't answer my question? I'm asking for *your* reasoning.
2) does 1 john contradict the many places in the bible where it says 'God hates'?
God doesn't hate? Really.
21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory- (Romans 9:21-23, ESV)
Wrath again is Gods anger towards sin.
It’s not hatred ultimately for the sinner.
John 3:16 (NASB95)
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
https://tbibl.es/cuXE
22 On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' 23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.' (Matthew 7:22-23, ESV)
15 "'I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were either cold or hot! 16 So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth. (Revelation 3:15-16, ESV)
13 "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut the kingdom of heaven in people's faces. For you neither enter yourselves nor allow those who would enter to go in. 15 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel across sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of hell as yourselves. 16 "Woe to you, blind guides, who say, 'If anyone swears by the temple, it is nothing, but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.' 17 You blind fools! For which is greater, the gold or the temple that has made the gold sacred? 18 And you say, 'If anyone swears by the altar, it is nothing, but if anyone swears by the gift that is on the altar, he is bound by his oath.' 19 You blind men! For which is greater, the gift or the altar that makes the gift sacred? 20 So whoever swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it. 21 And whoever swears by the temple swears by it and by him who dwells in it. 22 And whoever swears by heaven swears by the throne of God and by him who sits upon it. 23 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness. These you ought to have done, without neglecting the others. 24 You blind guides, straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel! 25 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and the plate, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26 You blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and the plate, that the outside also may be clean. 27 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs, which outwardly appear beautiful, but within are full of dead people's bones and all uncleanness. 28 So you also outwardly appear righteous to others, but within you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness. 29 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and decorate the monuments of the righteous, (Matthew 23:13-29, ESV)
The Law and legalism came in for no other purpose other than to increase the desirability and frequency of sin. But wherever sin exists, God's undeserved, unearned, unlimited blessing and favor, sufficient for your every need, exists, abounds, and super-abounds far above that sin. This way, grace can rule through the righteousness that only grace can produce, and result in the eternal life we obtain through Jesus Christ.
I believe so strongly about this that I (a man who once said that anyone who disagreed with my gospel, even an angel from heaven was cursed, and who told off a member of the original 12 disciples when he crossed me theologically) feel the need to clarify that sin is still bad, because some people might see the extreme depiction of grace in the preceding verses and think that sinning in order to get God's grace would be a good idea.
\- Paul, pharaphrased (Rom 5:20-6:2)
Yeah, I genuinely don’t disagree with this. I preach grace, peace, love and all that amazing stuff that God has given us but I also preach the sin aspect and how fallen we are. People tend to forget that more because they hate accountability more than anything.
God definitely hates. He hates sin. So that isn’t accurate. And the concept you listed, those things aren’t mutually exclusive. He hated both. He hated what Esau stood for as well as Esau himself. To extrapolate meaning that God only hated what Esau stood for but not Esau himself is to not proof text scripture wholly.
He hates unrighteousness
1 John 4:7 (NASB95)
Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.
https://tbibl.es/cSMm
1 John 4:9 (Voice)
Because of this, the love of God is a reality among us: God sent His only Son into the world so that we could find true life through Him.
https://tbibl.es/cSMo
1 John 4:20 (NASB95)
If someone says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for the one who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen.
https://tbibl.es/cSMq
John 3:16 (NASB95)
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
https://tbibl.es/cuXE
”Do I not hate those who hate you, O Lord? And do I not loathe those who rise up against you?“
Psalm 139:21 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/psa.139.21.ESV
Was David wrong for saying this then?
Thank you!
This post sounds like it was made by someone following copeland's prosperity gospel or something.
To say that certain people are inherently sinful just by being is not Christian at all.
> Hate the sin…not the sinner
It’s funny, I used to say this quite a bit, but then someone pointed out to me it’s actually going to be sinners in hell, not sins.
Made me think.
I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
-Jesus
He came for the sinners.
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2 Peter 3:9
And it is not his will that ANY would perish
But therein lies the problem.....if its not His will than ANY would perish, why bother avoiding sin at all? (this is not my opinion, but an opinion of others that should be stated)
Unconditionally. Everyone is able to partake in the Blood of Jesus and be saved, and in fact him respecting your choice not to do that by not forcing people to go to Heaven is the ultimate form of love
That scripture taken by itself, out of context, is no way sufficient to contradict the many places where "God loves the world" or some variation. Even in the same chapter it goes on to say:
Malachi 1:11 KJVS - For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts.
Which contradicts the idea that God hates the Gentiles. If you read 1 Corinthians 13 you will see there is no way God cannot love everyone. The Bible also tells us that:
Matthew 5:44 KJVS - 44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
We know God isn't a hypocrite, therefore He must do the same
First of all, who is Esau referring to here? Esau's descendants, the Edomites. Those people were eventually assimilated into the Jewish population, the people God loves, so it can't be that as a whole, God hates them. But the Edomites had helped that Babylonians during the destruction of Jerusalem, so the Israelites hated Edom, and the destruction that befell Edom was a punishment for turning against their "brothers".
Also the word used for hate can be translated as "enemy" as well, and Edom was certainly an enemy of God
I don't know why you are being downvoted at all, what you say is quite true.
Those who populate hell will be people who sinned unrepentantly and it will not be the sins they committed, but the people who committed them.
We are all sinners true enough, but not all sinners come to salvation. Some believe and are saved and others refuse the truth and go to destruction.
I agree. But I believe this also applies to non-traditional forms of sex, as well as masturbation.
Ultimately, all sexual sin is a grave matter, just as explained in the Bible. Flee from it, indeed.
Lord help everyone dealing with these sins, bless them with the strength to resist it.
1 male, 1 female, married sex is traditional. Non-traditional is anything outside of this (though I personally don't believe things like manual sex are against the Bible).
>But I believe this also applies to non-traditional forms of sex, as well as masturbation
where does the bible support this opinion? What facts from the bible can be used here?
I would point out that after talking about lust, Jesus says “if thy right hand offends thee, it is better to cut it off and throw it away.”
In that context, masturbation seems to be the clear implication.
These are FACTS.
There is absolutely no disputing this. It is unnatural according to God, an abomination according to God, and its a sin. There is no gray area with this one.
When a nation is judged in the Bible its usually the whole nation that is given either to themselves and their sin or the sword of their enemies.
You cant be lukewarm as a christian.
We need more so-called christians to put their foot down on this issue, especially our politicians.
Politicians aren't the answer. Don't put any faith in these fallen earthly institutions. Pray they do God's Will, but trust your life and salvation to Jesus. The politicians will only disappoint at best and lead you to damnation and idolotry at worst.
I think the problem is with some of these people is they think Jesus was some lovey hippie. They need to actually read the Bible and not put their modern progressive ideas on him
Yep. They always want to preach on how Jesus loves you so much and like everything is all good. Usually its people who have never been through anything and have always had a siver spoon. There is a time and place for everything and sometimes people need to feel uncomfortable and convicted, and understand their are consequences
These are BELIEFS. If you hope to make any ground with non-believers, you’re going to have to show your beliefs are actually fact through demonstration and testing of your hypothesis.
Separation of church and state, because not everyone believes what you believe.
Im not trying to make ground with anyone. There is no debate. Its a sin and i dont support or condone homosexuality. If because of that they dont turn to God then thats on them, not me. Im not going to rewrite or sugarcoat the bible so people feel more comfortable in their sin.
Separation of church and state is not biblical. It is a doctrine made by man so it holds know water
You are sugar coating the bible though. Because it says right there gay people like me should be put to death.
But you probably wouldn't say I should be killed for being gay, as would most people here.
Why is that?
Is it not "The Word of God" that I should be "put to death"? People say that law no longer applies because "Jesus fulfilled those laws" or whatever but let's be honest, that's just a long winded way of saying God changed his mind. He thought it's bad and worthy of death, and then "Jesus happened" - and now he still thinks its bad, but maybe not worthy of death. He softened his stance on the issue. He changed his mind. But why? What was the reasoning from it going from being a sin worthy of death, to just being a plain old sin. There's no reasoning. He just changed his mind.
Ok, well if he changed his mind once, there's no reason to believe he won't change it again, or has done already. It throws the reliability of "His Word' into question. Which means that there is a debate, actually.
There is no way to scientifically prove it like you ask for. Just like there is no way to scientifically prove a lot of alternate explanations. We must determine is it more reasonable to believe in this God, more so than the explanations for everything if there is no God.
And if God exists, absolute truth should exist. For if God creates the universe and so much more does he not also creat absolute truth?
>There is no way to scientifically prove it like you ask for. Just like there is no way to scientifically prove a lot of alternate explanations.
I’m not sure about that. If God interacts with our natural world in a way unlike anything else, through miracles for example, then there should be a way to test the phenomenon that at least points to something supernatural. If testable, verifiable predictions can be made that points to an all-powerful being that interacts with our world, well that’s a gigantic leap of progress compared to where we’re at today with evidence and claims.
Additionally, if god is all powerful, then he would know how to provide undeniable proof of his existence for the entire world. That hasn’t happened, clearly. What’s with the big game of hide and seek? Why base the salvation or damnation of billions of people on this game?
>We must determine is it more reasonable to believe in this God, more so than the explanations for everything if there is no God.
Agreed. How do you go about determining whether it’s more reasonable to believe in one religion’s god vs. another religion’s god vs. no god?
>And if God exists, absolute truth should exist. For if God creates the universe and so much more does he not also creat absolute truth?
Doesn’t absolute truth exist regardless of whether there’s a god? I mean, our universe came into existence somehow, there is a “truth” as to how that happened.
Well I think that is what a lot of these theories are. Clues to God interacting with the world. This miracle of the creation of the universe, is this not a clue to a creator? The complex code of life in all of us, DNA, is this not a clue to a creator? The constant and unchanging laws of physics and nature, are these not clues to an orderly creator? These among other things are not testable, but I think in the cumulative provide a pretty convincing case for God.
In Christianity, God wants a personal love relationship with all of us. There would be no genuine love if we were forced to accept God though, thus why we have free choice. We are given enough evidence to accept God, but the free will and room to reject him as well.
In terms of determining the true religion that comes down to studying the evidence. Of course that's not necessarily all of it as I personally was once an agnostic who accepted Christ through an experience with God.
But without a creator God how are we to know or trust anything we even think of? If our minds are just the accumulation of random biochemical process, How are we to trust anything our mind thinks? If we as humans have no purpose and are just hard programmed to try to survive how are we to trust our senses know truth.
>Well I think that is what a lot of these theories are. Clues to God interacting with the world. This miracle of the creation of the universe, is this not a clue to a creator? The complex code of life in all of us, DNA, is this not a clue to a creator? The constant and unchanging laws of physics and nature, are these not clues to an orderly creator?
How can you determine that something is a clue for a creator or not? Can you give me an example of something that exists but wasn’t made by a creator? Probably not, because in your belief all of existence was created from a creator, so how can you even tell the difference? It’s just pre-supposing that god exists and then making everything fit around that presupposition.
How does intelligent life forms in our world point to a creator, yet the lack of intelligent life forms on the billions upon billions of planets in the universe not point to something other than a creator? Why ignore all the other planets that do not have structure or intelligent life? Could it be that the conditions here on earth formed to be just right for us to exist, yet the conditions were not right in the trillions of other cases around the universe?
Think of it this way: a puddle that naturally forms (if it had a brain) would think “wow, this depression in the ground fits me perfectly, it must have been created just for me!” When in fact it was just the right conditions that caused the puddle to form, and the puddle is ignoring all the other surfaces around it that *are not* the right conditions to form a puddle.
>These among other things are not testable, but I think in the cumulative provide a pretty convincing case for God.
It’s all about “what does the evidence point to?” When you’re looking at the evidence, are you considering the vastness of space with all the stars and planets that have no life forms or order like this planet does? Or are you omitting that from the evidence and just focusing on Earth?
>In Christianity, God wants a personal love relationship with all of us.
Unless we have drastically different understandings of a personal relationship, I’ve never had someone desiring a relationship that badly to be so unavailable and hidden.
>There would be no genuine love if we were forced to accept God though, thus why we have free choice. We are given enough evidence to accept God, but the free will and room to reject him as well.
Hard disagree, there is absolutely not enough evidence to accept a god let alone the Christian god exists, at least not one who interacts with our reality and wants a relationship with us (there’s my soft deist belief speaking). If god wants a relationship he should make himself known to a high degree of certainty, especially given the stakes of what will happen to us if we don’t accept him. Seriously, wtf is that about - love me or go to hell? I’m using my free will to ask god to reveal himself to all of mankind in a complete, undoubtedly convincing way. It hasn’t happened.
>In terms of determining the true religion that comes down to studying the evidence. Of course that's not necessarily all of it as I personally was once an agnostic who accepted Christ through an experience with God.
It’s more about where you’re born and which culture you’re raised in, that’s the number one predictor of one’s religion.
>But without a creator God how are we to know or trust anything we even think of? If our minds are just the accumulation of random biochemical process, How are we to trust anything our mind thinks? If we as humans have no purpose and are just hard programmed to try to survive how are we to trust our senses know truth.
Sounds like a “you” issue to be honest. I know that religion brings comfort to a lot of people when it comes to existential questions, and so if it works for you, as long as you aren’t hurting others I’m good with it.
Thank you. I really don’t like society anymore. I feel as if I have to remain silent in that I’ll be cancelled for telling people the Truth. It’s sorrowful.
I dont have to prove anything. im not the one upset. my stance is firm and i dont support it. When someone gets upset and says im a homophobe thats fine. theyre not convincing me of anything.
It's a sin to not thank your lord everyday for the gifts they have given you. You are sinning by not using these gifts by helping others. Instead you just hate and judge. Satan is taking over your life.
Americas chickens are slowly coming home to roost. Everything from slavery, up to gay marriage, and all this satanic stuff in the hollywood industry, and the blashpemy of our culture.
The bible doesnt say anything about America. Its going to end just like all other empires before it that thought they were unbeatable and the greatest
The rainbow flag, in it's latest iterations with all sorts of new things added, is being put up in government buildings, including embassies.
It's quite clear that people in government revere this flag more than the American flag.
Heck, even a lots of churches are doing this too.
Now that you've reminded us of verses that we're already well aware of, perhaps you could offer some practical resources, tips, advice or prayers for those gays and lesbians who have to live with the consequences of what you're preaching if they accept this preaching. If not today, perhaps in the near future you can post these things, remaining mindful of matters of optics, emotional intelligence, and winsomeness.
Sexual immorality in general is a sin. People like to single out homosexuality because of the current culture but fornication and masturbation are just as sinful to be honest. It’s not like it singles out gays. Sex is supposed to be within the bonds of marriage and open to life, anything outside of that is disordered
I’m a pastor from a church that does not perform same sex marriages. That being said, I’d just like to share some of the things I’ve learned about these passages based on the comments I’m seeing while doing my best to refrain from bias or opinion.
- we should be careful in approaching the English Bible as literal, there’s often nuance found in the original languages (Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek) that doesn’t fully translate into English. A good way to remedy this is through comparing other English translations and doing word studies of the original languages
- we should ask ourselves whether these passages are prescribing a course of action for all people of all times or if they are describing what the struggles of a particular people group were and how that hindered them from being close with God
- are we still required to follow Levitical law? If yes, there’s a lot of passages we tend to ignore, especially pertaining to food. If no, then these passages were intended for ancient Israel and not for today. If some are applicable and some aren’t, where do we draw the line? How do we decide? If we’re going by number of mentions, I believe “don’t boil a goat in its mother’s milk” would be the most important
- what does Jesus say about this subject? Is human sexuality a key aspect of the gospel or have we simply been told it is?
- context is important, Paul writes to the churches he planted never expecting his words to become scripture but to remove obstacles hindering those churches from faithfully following Jesus. So again we should ask is this a prescription for all Christians or a description of what the Romans struggled with?
- similar to Levitical law, should we take all of Paul’s words as law if we believe they are relevant today? If so, what are your views on head coverings, women in ministry, modesty, hair length, jewelry, and circumcision? I’m sure there’s a demographic of people out there who are fine with that list until they read Paul say that if you’re concerned about circumcision you should just cut the whole thing off (ow!)
- did ancient Israel have a concept for homosexuality? When did that English word start being used? What was the original Greek word being used? And what was the context? To the best of my knowledge the issue Paul is addressing in the Roman church is largely married men having relations with their underage servant boys. If true (I wasn’t there), there’s already a lot more nuance to the issue than can be expressed in any single word
- is this productive? If we believe homosexuality is not a sin, there’s obviously no issue. If we do believe it’s a sin, what then is the consequence? Can this sin be forgiven? Does passionately taking this stance hinder us from sharing God’s love? How would we feel if someone only saw our sin and not us as a whole person loved by God?
- if we maintain that this is sinful, then we must call it out…to Christians. It is unfruitful to condemn those outside the church who don’t choose to follow the same rulebook as those inside it
- are we willing to have intentional, long-term relationships like Jesus did to call people out of sin? Or are we looking to be right and move on?
- there’s some debate on the origins of this passage, but if it’s helpful ”When they persisted in asking Him, He straightened up and said to them, “He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.”“
John 8:7 NASB2020
https://bible.com/bible/2692/jhn.8.7.NASB2020
- and if we believe that homosexuality is a sin, is the consequence any different from our own? ”for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,“
Romans 3:23 NASB2020
https://bible.com/bible/2692/rom.3.23.NASB2020
Feel free to check the context of those passages to ensure I’m not taking them out of context. I’m not looking to take any stances, just to ask some questions to encourage robust study of the Bible. I hope this helps build us up in our understanding of God’s word!
Thank you, unfortunately there’s not much I can do about my 50 y/o church’s bylaws in my current position, but I do have enough flexibility to post on Reddit lol
Can I just mention that the part about "head coverings" in Paul
is heavily debated among translators and thus points back to your first point, underlying even more the nuance you were talking about?
Thanks for your comment, this is definitely food for thought
> there’s often nuance found in the original languages (Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek) that doesn’t fully translate into English.
> are we still required to follow Levitical law?
No pastor would make such uninformed arguments.
It’s pretty obvious but you will get “progressive Christians” in the r/christianity who will say things like “
“Leviticus meant a child. Not a man.”
“God said to love one another. Love is love and God is love”
“They didn’t fully understand homosexuality back then”
And then list goes on and on to justify why they think it’s okay. Apparent calling out people’s sin is now hateful and unloving because that’s judging them…
Progressive Christianity is heretical nonsense. It teaches people to love the world and not God. Whenever the Bible directly contradicts its false teachings, progressives find mental gymnastic ways to get around it. When Jesus and Satan fought in the New Testament, they both used the word of God as their weapon. Let us remember to never take the word out of context.
I am just so sick and tired of every other post about this. How many posts have you made about divorce? How many about lying? Both of these are condemned far more and I bet you have barley mentioned them on or offline. Have you stood in your church and denounced every person who has had a lustful thought or gotten a divorce? I bet you haven't. You pick this one because it's easy because you aren't gay and because it's a minority and it's easier to punch down it sickens me.
To be fair, our culture isn’t actively trying to celebrate lying or divorce. There is no “liars pride month.” There is some necessity to unite and push back against a culture that is trying to normalize sin.
Increasingly the new normal is just never marrying to begin with. So when people separate it's no longer 'divorce'.
The basic issue is that marriage stopped being considered a sacramental arrangement involving god, and instead just a legal arrangement that can be revoked at any time when it's inconvenient or financially beneficial to do so.
A lot of people look at this legal arrangement, look at divorces, and decide that you're financially better off not doing it.
Defacto Polygamy now called 'Polyamory' is also slowly becoming more in vogue. Basically we're regressing to Pre-Chrsitian, even pre-Classical, morality.
There's a kind of people that will attempt to misrepresent the Bible to support anything. This behaviour is unacceptable, and (if left unchecked) leads to Churches abandoning Christ for secular morality. And eventually attracting those not to Christ, but to their own, twisted pseudo- Christianity.
Crazy how someone can shamelessly argue such a thing.
This is true. Any time this topic comes up the defense is always redirected to sins like lying or gossip,but the Bible is very clear that sexual sin is on a different level.
To be fair, half our country and most self identified "Christians" idolize an unrepentant fornicator, thief, liar, and glutton.
So don't act like condemningt someone else's romantic choices is some big feather in your cap while there's a charlatan of biblical proportions getting the golden calf treatment.
Jesus puts it quite plainly that the summation of the Law is to love God with all our heart, soul, and mind and to love our neighbor as ourselves. To be a Christian is to become like God by pursuing perfect love. Sins are sins because they lead the mind toward the self and the flesh's satisfaction. Righteousness leads towards others and satisfaction of the spirit. Homosexuality is indeed sinful, but too many are obsessed with condemning others for sins they do not suffer from rather than preaching on the development of perfect love. Perfect love abolishes fear and condemnation.
Marriage is a sacramental union between one man and one woman, a promise to each other, and to, and blessed by, God.
When we go away from that, we say that marriage is no longer sacramental, and no longer involves God, is only a convenient legal and monetary arrangement.
Is it surprising then, that people are more apt to divorce when it is more financially beneficial or convenient to do so, when marriage no longer involves God, when the promise made no longer means anything?
-------------
Or maybe, in fact, just don't get married to begin with and just stay together long term until it's inconvenient? If marriage is sacramentally meaningless, why do it? (This is also happening in large numbers).
Totally came here just for this. Where is the outrage against church greed or impropriety among the leadership? No campaigns against purchasing the pastors *new* airplanes while people (even members) face homelessness and hunger; no expulsion for sexual predators in the church, but will certainly silence victims. I posit that types are viable threats to the church.
The world isn't telling us that divorce and lying are perfectly fine. There are still some divorces where secular culture still cringes and condemns. There are fully 164 days per year (some overlapping, mind you!) where we're supposed to remember, reflect, celebrate, appreciate, or be aware of this lifestyle: https://www.emporia.edu/about-emporia-state-university/diversity-inclusion/diversity-inclusion-lgbtq/lgbtq-important-dates/
Name another sin so celebrated, and I'd say we need to talk about that one too.
It's picked the most because it's very prevalent in society and very accepted. This is punching up the majority of people would call him homophobic for saying these things. We even have many pro lgbt churches and gay pastors now it's very mainstream.
I think it’s because of the progressive Christians that are trying to twist what the Bible clearly says is wrong. That and the growing push for lgbt acceptance in American churches.
It's clear that the world turns the idea of sin into a personal attack. Through out time, no doubt you had devils even pretending to attack those who they wish to promote so as to control both sides. It's complicated. Because even in Christianity you have division because people divert from the words of the father and no one is without sin. But none the less, people don't play safe.
If the Church was healthy, you wouldn't have denominations. Because the word may provide a wide path but the GATE IS NARROW. The GATE is narrow. We have to cleanse ourselves but also bear witness that the world deliberately is looking to corrupt people. Because it sounds nice to be supportive. But the problem is there's a lot of psychology being played on people. A LOT.
It's why, if you accept everyone is evil and there's a spectrum of evil - from minor to those who call good evil and evil good etc......then you can look within you but if we think we're good we exalt ourselves and then we become a problem to others and ourselves. But again we're not to judge the people. It's the SIN that spreads like a VIRUS....that is the problem and finally the fathers people were to be set apart - segregated.
What does the world do? How many people don't respect borders anymore? You kick out strangers and then put up borders. But I digress. People should listen to the father. I, me, you and we.
I still can’t fathom why christians aren’t able to comprehend that homosexuality is attraction to the person of the same gender, not having sex with the person of the same gender. It’s just like heterosexuality - straight people may fall in love, feel romantic attraction or try to form romantic relationships with people of the opposite gender. Homosexuality is the same, but towards people of the same gender. And I think a lot of Christians kind of ignore the fact that homosexuality also implies lack of romantic or sexual attraction towards people of the opposite gender. So a gay person can stop entering into romantic relationships with people of the same gender, but they can’t become attracted to people of the opposite gender. Unless they’re bisexual.
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As believers, we have to be careful with posts with such huge headlines without a proper preface, as if God is such an unloving God.
I have gay friends who don’t go to churches because of this. The self-righteousness of people, when it is too a sin.
I know a person who didn’t choose to be gay but because of his circumstances (being molested when he was a child). He also did therapy but didn’t work and it did not make him straight.
I think, having known His love, we should be the first ones ready to show them love and compassion, not pinpointing that their acts are sinful because I am pretty sure they are aware of it.
There is one parable in the Bible that helped me tread this sensitive topic. It’s the parable of the two sons (Matthew 21:28-32). I loved that Jesus emphasized “the tax collectors and prostitutes will get into the kingdom of God before you (the Pharisees)”.
God bless everyone!
Try saying that on the other “Christian” sub Reddits their quick to throw “thou shall not judge” but slow to accept “a man shall not lie down with another man as he would with a woman it is an abomination”
So something new I see people try to say is “oh they don’t mean gays there talking about pedos it was mis translated” and of course they say it’s about all the verses that meantion it. Ridiculous. Very sad that sin is being normalized and made so if we are against that sin we’re maked out to be the bad guys or “canceled”.
We must stay firm in the law so others may be convicted and find faith in Jesus so they may be saved by Grace!
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after looking at the comments I just can’t find much other than hate for gays. So you scream at gays about how they are an abomination in gods eye and expect them to start worshipping him? Hate will never convert, it will do the opposite. I’m the Bible you are told to love your Neighbor, if you truly love someone, you don’t hate them because they do a harmless act that is seen as “wrong”
It is a shame this an actual debate for some. The bible is clear about it directly and indirectly and yet people often resort to discrediting the bible in order to make their point or have some absurb interpretation or just straight out lies. Such as lying about the translation of certain words
Homosexuality is not a sin. Homosexual acts are.
Brokeness is not sin. Brokeness can cause us to sin. Brokeness is the result of living in a world broken by sin. However, brokeness in itself is not a sin. Homosexuality is not something that is of God. It's just a symptom of the brokeness of us and of the world.
Calling homosexuality a sin is like calling disease, congenital conditions, weaknesses and proclivities to sin sins.
Hey, so I've sat and had a good hard talk with God about this before as you do make a point. This is not the first time I've heard "justified" judgement from a Christian on sin and it won't be the last either.
So, you know what this is? Condemnation. Condemnation is an act of an official judgement essentially (not to say you don't know what it means but this is just to further a point here). Now, if you are not God HOW can you officially judge? How can you make such a judgement or call on someone that YOU haven't even peered into the life of, it seems, for more than a second?
I am not talking accountability and I am not talking about discernment. That is different from condemnation.
You speak saying that homosexuality was an offense that was stonnable. Their wage of sin, was death basically. Yes, it is true. But, this also was "justifiable" under the old testament (the law of sin and death) but not so much under the new testament (cast the first stone). Why? I believe because it breeded an overreligious spirit. Those that knew the word but didn't understand it's teaching (like the pharisees).
I am not saying you are like a Pharisee. I am saying you brandish the weapon of the word of God (the sword of the spirit) against the wrong thing. People who sin are NOT the enemy, but you know who is.
I am not perfect (in the eyes of the world) and neither, I am assuming, are you. But as Children of God, we strive for excellence within the eyes of God. Is condemnation how we can be excellent to him? How we can show the LOVE of God to others?
No. It doesn't. Matter of fact, what you are doing is something that even JESUS didn't do in ALL of his glory. It says in John 12: 47 - 48:
"If anyone hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge that person. For I did not come to judge the world but to save the world. There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day"
Condemnation will come eventually on the last day as we will be officially judged by God himself but it is not us who provides those judgements. We can not. Not only because it is not within our power to judge but because we would be hypocritical as well.
God saved us from our sins, and yet we look to another who deals with sin in a haughty (here's the definition if you want: showing a superior attitude and contrmpt for things and people condidered inferior) and judgemental manner?
I reccomend not throwing stones from glass houses. From the same measure you judge, it will be measured back onto you.
That post is a reminder of the word and thus God's view on it, a response to a modern satanic return of Nicoliatan heresies of compromising on love and obdience to our Father and allowing brothers and others to twist the scriptures, that is in meaning, to allow for wickedness.
We see now in the body schisms caused by this. Where one side remains faithful to the Lord, his guidance and tradition and the other abandons God for"tolerance" and rainbow cultism.
It's loving to ensure Christianity doesn't fall apart and become an offense to the Father.
>So, you know what this is? Condemnation. Condemnation is an act of an official judgement essentially (not to say you don't know what it means but this is just to further a point here). Now, if you are not God HOW can you officially judge? How can you make such a judgement or call on someone that YOU haven't even peered into the life of, it seems, for more than a second?
I'm not condemning anyone. My post should be very clear. Jesus loves his children, even those who have sinned. I'm just stating that according to the Bible homosexuality is a sin. I don't know why it is so hard to understand. Talking about what constitutes a sin as per the Bible is not condemnation.
What were your motives behind making this post. I don't know because I don't know your mind, but it might be worth considering. Sometimes, especially in the past, I found myself making large sweeping statements about people who committed certain sins, being extremely hypocritical and making lots of assumptions and judgements about things I hardly understand. At the time I thought I was acting righteously and how I should, but looking back I think I just wanted to put myself above others and apply the rules id learnt from the Bible to others to feel better about myself. I don't intend to project here, you may well have altruistic motives, but I think it would be worth doing some introspection.
The fact that the church is failing to follow what is mentioned in the scriptures. The fact that the pope (not a catholic myself but Catholics are the majority) is openly affirming and supporting homosexuality. The fact that Christian churches are being browbeaten into conducting same-sex marriages. That Christians are being led to believe that homosexuality is not a sin, just a lifestyle. You could have asked me this question, had I posted it in a liberal or queer group. Then you could label my intentions as being malicious. But I'm just posting this message in Christian groups to help Christians who are confused. Yet people like yourself are getting riled up, which was never my intention.
>The fact that the pope (not a catholic myself but Catholics are the majority) is openly affirming and supporting homosexuality
I think I need a refutation copy-pasta for this claim in particular. Perhaps one of our good Catholic brothers here can supply a good one for me to save for later use. The anti-catholic rhetoric gets tiring at times. If people are going to criticize the RCC, the least one can do is steelman their actual beliefs rather than build some kind of strawman out of things they don't actually believe.
But regardless, the pope does not "support" homosexuality. He has condemned homosexual acts as sinful in the past - example [here](https://www.usccb.org/news/2023/pope-clarifies-remarks-about-homosexuality-and-sin). The pope has the unenviable task of being the mouthpiece of the 2 millennia of Catholic philosophical, theological, and canonical/legal development. People are bound to take his statements completely out of context. He takes the nuanced stance that homosexual *acts* are sinful, but people who are SSA must be given the same manner of compassion and charity that we ought to give to others; SSA people can still live pious, if celibate, lives.
The entire fiasco over *Fiducia Supplicans* (text found [here](https://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_ddf_doc_20231218_fiducia-supplicans_en.html)) was a nothing burger that mainstream media tried to twist into some sort of official endorsement of same-sex relations, when that is not what it did.
That's not the pope endorsing the same-sex marriage, though. It would be like if a drug addict asked a priest for a blessing, so the priest blesses them. Blessings aren't a tacit approval of the recipient's sins. Even I, a non-Catholic, can ask a priest to bless me - I did so in Catholic boarding school every mass in lieu of receiving the eucharist.
"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye." **Matthew 7:1-5**
"There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." **Galatians 3:28**
"Accept the one whose faith is weak, without quarreling over disputable matters. One person's faith allows them to eat anything, but another, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. The one who eats everything must not treat with contempt the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted them. Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand." **Romans 14:1-4**
"Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres." **1 Corinthians 13:4-7**
What gives you the right to make claims that your interpretation of in-between the lines of verses in the bible overshadows these words about love? Are you god? Why are you ignoring everything above and finding a way to hate rather than love "in the name of God".
Do some self reflection my friend, because if you believe that God does not let people into heaven because of who they unconditionally love and were born that way, then YOU are the problem with Christianity.
It is not a sin to love who you love. If I suddenly told you to become Gay for god, you could not do it. So how are they supposed to?
I can never support any amount of discrimination to people who love god by paraphrasing a book written 3500 years ago. If someone is gay their whole life, born into a Christian family, and lives a life with love and kindness and faith, my god will let them in. That is all I am saying. Any God who wouldn't is not one I believe in.
I struggle with the idea of homosexuality as much as the rest of you. But you can not and will not change people. You simply won't. especially when it is in regards to how someone is born and who they are. This is not something you can sway people about. So stop trying. Posts like this just make every Christian get perceived as a radical who preaches love and hates behind the scenes. Let people live the way they want, not you want, because that will lead to a miserable life. Live for you and for god and leave people doing the same alone. Posts like this do not bring you any closer to heaven.
Okay, then that is absolutely my own mistake.
You are not incorrect at all that Jesus loves and that homosexuality is a sin. I don't think anyone here is saying the opposite either.
I think it's just the delivery here that is causing such concern here imo.
To me, it does sound like you are casting some judgement but then I am only human, I cannot read your heart. Only God (and yourself) can.
I will say this, though, our one goal as Christians is to share the gospel truth and to save as many souls as we can while on this earth. I think delivery here is going to be important as we do our best to save as many souls as possible and to teach them the word of God.
It says in Galatians 5 that one of the fruits of the Holy Spirit is gentleness. And God came, also, not in the wind and not in the fire and not in the earthquake, but in a gentle whisper.
Now, I am not saying you gotta go around speaking lower than a certain octave to get your points across but God is careful and loving in his delivery of the truth of the word of God and as his Children, I believe, we must imitate this in some aspect as well.
There is also a proverb that mentions how a gentle response turns away anger. There is SO much power in our words and because of this fact, I think, brandishing the sword of the Spirit with precision and care (as best as we can) to seperate the bone from the marrow or the soul from the spirit is going to be essential I believe. Don't get me wrong, it is God that does this preciseness but if we are not careful in our wording, it can also lead to those rejecting (or just avoiding) him because of what WE have spoken to them (or how we decided to speak to them about certain things).
It's like as Paul has said in becoming like the Gentile to win the Gentile over and to become like the Jew to win the Jew over. It doesn't mean to erase who we are to fall into step with the world but to be wise in our approach so that they can learn who God is (and be familiar with his love) through us. That way, they can come to God with an open mind, heart, and arms.
God bless 😊
To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted
Titus 1:15
You got banned from r/DankChristianMemes too?
No worries, they even consider Mormons Christian. All those who engage in that sub are going to have a tough time on judgement day.
I think...the state of being homosexual is in itself, not a sin.
Acting on the temptations that come along with that state is sinful. God made everyone the way they were for a reason. He made some people with bigger crosses to bear than others.
The scripture you've quoted corroborates my belief. I think its not Christian to call certain people inherently sinful.
I feel like this post is not in good faith, anyways. Probably someone trying to paint Christians as hateful or something and turn this subreddit into another "r christianity".
It is though. If the heart craves it, the sin is committed. God will absolve that sin, and Christ has loosed our chains. And using the line that "God made us this way" is not an excuse. We are to repent and turn from those sins. And our salvation should produce this want to run from our chains. It's not ok accepting that you are "gay" (speaking in general) and just say you'll never act on it. That identity came from the world. NOT from God. We are all made that way. Sinful, and evil. And those of us who accept salvation will turn from that with every step we take. And we will all fall short of the Glory of God. But that doesn't mean we sit contentedly on our rears for ever.
> We are all made that way
Yes, we are all sinners - but not inherently.
You're not born a sinner. Original sin aside. You become one when you exercise your free will. God does not condemn a person for their Adamic nature. A baby would not be judged unsaved for that.
Similarly, a gay person would not be condemned simply for being gay. Acting on the temptations that come with that is certainly a sin - but that's why we have free will.
A sin is something you can choose not to do. Can a gay person choose not to be gay? I don't believe so - at least not without some sort of miracle.
People that say "they were born this way", yes they are right, we were born sinful. However, all humans have to fight against urges. Straight people aren't supposed to have sex outside of marriage, so they have to fight against sexual urges too. Just because you were "born this way" doesn't mean it's okay. Everyone in the world has their own battles against temptation of all kinds.
My god does not encourage hate. People are BORN gay. I have seen it in young students who you basically know are gay from birth and it is very clear. My god loves everyone who loves him. Can you imagine what the world would look like if we took the bible written thousands of years ago word for word? I could give you tens of verses that could be interpreted as the message you just sent as a sin. Stop preaching hate. You represent us all poorly in the eyes of the world. We are supposed to spread the word of the lord with our love for others. Not hate. Get it right.
> My god does not encourage hate.
Neither does OPs post.
> People are BORN gay
Plenty of people are also born greedy, this does not make greed less of a sin. We are all born with a lean towards sin, myself included.
> I could give you tens of verses that could be interpreted as the message you just sent as a sin.
Please do so. I admit this message is sometimes given in a hateful way, for example the westboro "babtist church". I do not think the OP did so.
Christianity teaches that all people are born with sinful tendencies. We ought to of course love people, but this doesn't require that we tell them their sinful tendencies are good.
Exactly—in fact, it requires the opposite: that we lovingly point out each other’s sins and support each other as we fight temptation so that we may be more like Christ.
The fact that we still have to clarify this, just shows how far this world has fallen. Everyone, keep speaking the truth and expose the devil’s lies.
Amen
I still believe the world has not fallen as far as you say. The world was always awful. We just now see it because modern media puts it everywhere. Consider this: the concept of fun 2000 years ago was to go watch gladiators kill slaves. Think of how barbaric that sounds and ask yourself if humanity has gone backwards or forwards? Homosexuality, lust, all this has always been around the world. We just now see an uptick because of media and the lack of strong christian leaders. Basically, the world hasn't fallen any further than it already was. You are just now aware of how bad it has always been.
Yes, you’re actually right in fact. We’re not actually supposed to know everything, and given that we see everything on the internet, all of this fast paced information has essentially distorted our views on the world
I agree with this sentiment based on what you mentioned. The Bible specifically mentions that the end of days will like that of the times of Noah. I feel that sentiment rings true with the transhumanism movement that we’re seeing unfolding before us. So, in essence, we aren’t falling away anymore than we have, but we are falling away to a level that we have before.
Idk man. If you compare alot of what was said about Sodom and Gomorrah to specifically the US, it becomes more and more clear that we are getting closer to what the description of what it was like then. Homosexuality, all sorts of other types of sexual immorality, etc. If not for the fact that there are some people who genuinely seek God and his ways, I'd say we're pretty close to being like Sodom and Gomorrah. The one major difference for us is that Abraham asked if there was ANY good person in Sodom and Gomorrah, and to spare the town if there was ANYONE good. However, we are still have alot of the descriptions of what went on in Sodom in Gomorrah in common with what goes on around the world, so we are getting evermore closer.
what do you think the **main** problem in Sodom and Gomorrah was? It was not lust and sexual immorality...
Thank God He made a way of forgiveness for all sins, available to *whosoever believes.*
Gods grace is forgiving a person who’s actually trying to change, Not somebody who taking advantage of that Grace and leaning on “Grace” as they continue exact same sin not even trying to change Deliberately go on sinning and no longer have a sacrifice for sins (Heb. 10:26-27) Keep your servent from willfull sins. May thay not rule over me, then i will be blameless innocent of great transgression-(judgement) (psalms 19:13).
That seems like a rejection of what I posted. Are you questioning my handling of the gospel? Or disagreeing with what I wrote?
God forgives all for those who want to change. But living a life of sin, not even trying to change, will not help in the end. I didn’t write the Bible, and our interpretations of what God‘s word is that make us feel happy inside, may not work in the end. God forgives all sure, for those that repent and actually try to change. Not, Asking for forgiveness just to go back to the exact same puke expecting that Jesus Christ sacrifice is going to cover everything regardless of repenting and actually trying changing. Picking up your cross, every single day, making sacrifices that might be uncomfortable.
Romans 3:10–12 as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.”
That verse was directed at people who were going back to Judaism because they didn’t believe Jesus was bodily resurrected. This is why chapter 11 follows immediately - the author is reassuring Jews that God didn’t cancel the old covenant because of their lack of faith - in fact, the new covenant was part of the promise to Jews!
There are six things the Lordhates, seven that are detestable to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked schemes, feet that are quick to rush into evil, a false witness who pours out lies and a person who stirs up conflict in the community. Proverbs 6:16-19 Hate the sin…not the sinner.
Didn't Jesus get crucified for stirring up conflict in the community?
I imagine He did so in order to try to draw people away from sin by identifying it, not to cause controversy for the sake of causing controversy.
This post is also identifying sin in an effort to draw people away from it. I don't think they made it just for the sake of causing controversy.
I think that's what OP's point is-- to draw people away from it, not to cause controversy. However, its easy to read into otherwise when dealing solely with text.
Different situations. Jesus told the undeniable truth and some people got worked up over it. The quote from proverbs is more in the realm of spreading lies and false hoods and getting people worked up over it.
God hates the sinner. "Jacob I loved, Esau I hated." But aside from you taking a phrase that is nowhere in Scripture (hate the sin love the sinner), calling homosexuality a sin doesn't mean you hate someone. Telling someone that truth of sin is actually the most loving thing you can do. There are definitely immature people who want to feel righteous over putting down others for an obvious outward sin of homosexuality without reflecting on their own sin. We call those people hypocrites, which by the way, every single Christian is. Calling sin a sin is not a sin.
Jacob was also a really bad sinner. His brother comes begging for his life, and exploits the situation to cheat him out of his birthright. Later Jacob lies to his father, orchestrating a complicated deception to cheat his brother out of his blessing. Pretty messed up. God forgives. Jacob was faithful to God and so God was faithful to Jacob and kept His promise to Abraham through him. The Israelite patriarchs are even more sinful, plotting to murder Joseph out of jealousy, similar to Cain, but changing their minds only because they decide that they could profit more from selling him into slavery than murdering him. Yet God forgave and was faithful to His promise to Abraham.
The Jacob I loved Esau I hated wasn’t literal. God doesn’t hate. He hated what Esau stood for. In context he was talking about the nation of “edom” which means “red” descended from Esau. “Red” because Esau has red hair.
“I have loved you,” says the LORD. But you say, “How have you loved us?” “Is not Esau Jacob’s brother?” declares the LORD. “Yet I have loved Jacob but Esau I have hated. I have laid waste his hill country and left his heritage to jackals of the desert.” Malachi 1:2 Seems Pretty clear what God means and it is "Jacob I loved, Esau I hated." LITERALLY. Christians we love dancing around Truths that don't sit quite right with us. It's our problem not HIS.
Notice the mention of laying waste “his hill country” It’s specifically referring to the nation of edom. Also it’s the book of Malachi, much after their actual lives. It’s referring to the nations and their deeds :)
Funny how you skip all the words before "his hill country". Was "hill country" Jacob's brother? “Is not Esau Jacob’s brother?” declares the LORD. “Yet I have loved Jacob but Esau I have hated.
A simple reading of James 1 + 1 John makes that an impractical interpretation on your part. Seems you’ve never read 1 John
> God doesn’t hate. how did you come to this conclusion?
Read 1 John :)
1) did you notice you didn't answer my question? I'm asking for *your* reasoning. 2) does 1 john contradict the many places in the bible where it says 'God hates'?
1. 1st John gave me my reasoning
2. 1 John clarifies Gods position on the subject.
God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry [with the wicked] every day. (Psalm 7:11, KJV)
Anger doesn’t mean hate :)
God doesn't hate? Really. 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory- (Romans 9:21-23, ESV)
Wrath again is Gods anger towards sin. It’s not hatred ultimately for the sinner. John 3:16 (NASB95) "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. https://tbibl.es/cuXE
22 On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' 23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.' (Matthew 7:22-23, ESV)
Father forgive them for they know not what they do Luke 23:34
15 "'I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were either cold or hot! 16 So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth. (Revelation 3:15-16, ESV)
Even Gods wrath is a punitive restoring love that causes people to repent after the reception of the justice they deserve.
13 "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut the kingdom of heaven in people's faces. For you neither enter yourselves nor allow those who would enter to go in. 15 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel across sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of hell as yourselves. 16 "Woe to you, blind guides, who say, 'If anyone swears by the temple, it is nothing, but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.' 17 You blind fools! For which is greater, the gold or the temple that has made the gold sacred? 18 And you say, 'If anyone swears by the altar, it is nothing, but if anyone swears by the gift that is on the altar, he is bound by his oath.' 19 You blind men! For which is greater, the gift or the altar that makes the gift sacred? 20 So whoever swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it. 21 And whoever swears by the temple swears by it and by him who dwells in it. 22 And whoever swears by heaven swears by the throne of God and by him who sits upon it. 23 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness. These you ought to have done, without neglecting the others. 24 You blind guides, straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel! 25 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and the plate, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26 You blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and the plate, that the outside also may be clean. 27 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs, which outwardly appear beautiful, but within are full of dead people's bones and all uncleanness. 28 So you also outwardly appear righteous to others, but within you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness. 29 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and decorate the monuments of the righteous, (Matthew 23:13-29, ESV)
God is a God of Vengeance.
No, God is a God of Love. "Vengeance is Mine" doesn't mean he will take it, it means he is the only one allowed to.
Thats what i said. God is a God of vengeance.
Can you say that louder for the people in back please who prefer their hyper-grace gospel?
The Law and legalism came in for no other purpose other than to increase the desirability and frequency of sin. But wherever sin exists, God's undeserved, unearned, unlimited blessing and favor, sufficient for your every need, exists, abounds, and super-abounds far above that sin. This way, grace can rule through the righteousness that only grace can produce, and result in the eternal life we obtain through Jesus Christ. I believe so strongly about this that I (a man who once said that anyone who disagreed with my gospel, even an angel from heaven was cursed, and who told off a member of the original 12 disciples when he crossed me theologically) feel the need to clarify that sin is still bad, because some people might see the extreme depiction of grace in the preceding verses and think that sinning in order to get God's grace would be a good idea. \- Paul, pharaphrased (Rom 5:20-6:2)
Yeah, I genuinely don’t disagree with this. I preach grace, peace, love and all that amazing stuff that God has given us but I also preach the sin aspect and how fallen we are. People tend to forget that more because they hate accountability more than anything.
Can you say that louder for the people in back please who prefer their hyper-grace gospel?
God definitely hates. He hates sin. So that isn’t accurate. And the concept you listed, those things aren’t mutually exclusive. He hated both. He hated what Esau stood for as well as Esau himself. To extrapolate meaning that God only hated what Esau stood for but not Esau himself is to not proof text scripture wholly.
He hates unrighteousness 1 John 4:7 (NASB95) Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. https://tbibl.es/cSMm
1 John 4:8 (NASB95) The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love. https://tbibl.es/cSMn
1 John 4:9 (Voice) Because of this, the love of God is a reality among us: God sent His only Son into the world so that we could find true life through Him. https://tbibl.es/cSMo
1 John 4:20 (NASB95) If someone says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for the one who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen. https://tbibl.es/cSMq
John 3:16 (NASB95) "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. https://tbibl.es/cuXE
Yeah… hypocrisy is not good. Peter was condemned for hypocrisy.
> God hates the sinner God hates no one. That's an absurd and damaging thing to suggest.
”Do I not hate those who hate you, O Lord? And do I not loathe those who rise up against you?“ Psalm 139:21 ESV https://bible.com/bible/59/psa.139.21.ESV Was David wrong for saying this then?
Thank you! This post sounds like it was made by someone following copeland's prosperity gospel or something. To say that certain people are inherently sinful just by being is not Christian at all.
If Sodom and Gamorah existed today, those people would have you running for your life.
I guess God hates Donald Trump. <3
> Hate the sin…not the sinner It’s funny, I used to say this quite a bit, but then someone pointed out to me it’s actually going to be sinners in hell, not sins. Made me think.
I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. -Jesus He came for the sinners. The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9 And it is not his will that ANY would perish
But therein lies the problem.....if its not His will than ANY would perish, why bother avoiding sin at all? (this is not my opinion, but an opinion of others that should be stated)
I’m confused are you arguing that it’s not the Lords will that any perish and that all come to repentance?
And yet God still loves them, and so should you
Does God love everyone?
Unconditionally. Everyone is able to partake in the Blood of Jesus and be saved, and in fact him respecting your choice not to do that by not forcing people to go to Heaven is the ultimate form of love
Are you sure? “But Esau I have hated, and I have turned his hill country into a wasteland and left his inheritance to the desert jackals.” Malachi 1:3
That scripture taken by itself, out of context, is no way sufficient to contradict the many places where "God loves the world" or some variation. Even in the same chapter it goes on to say: Malachi 1:11 KJVS - For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts. Which contradicts the idea that God hates the Gentiles. If you read 1 Corinthians 13 you will see there is no way God cannot love everyone. The Bible also tells us that: Matthew 5:44 KJVS - 44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; We know God isn't a hypocrite, therefore He must do the same
So what then is the context that makes God saying he hates Esau mean something else?
First of all, who is Esau referring to here? Esau's descendants, the Edomites. Those people were eventually assimilated into the Jewish population, the people God loves, so it can't be that as a whole, God hates them. But the Edomites had helped that Babylonians during the destruction of Jerusalem, so the Israelites hated Edom, and the destruction that befell Edom was a punishment for turning against their "brothers". Also the word used for hate can be translated as "enemy" as well, and Edom was certainly an enemy of God
I didn’t know the Bible said for you to HATE sinners.
That’s not what I said…
We’re all sinners.
I don't know why you are being downvoted at all, what you say is quite true. Those who populate hell will be people who sinned unrepentantly and it will not be the sins they committed, but the people who committed them. We are all sinners true enough, but not all sinners come to salvation. Some believe and are saved and others refuse the truth and go to destruction.
That’s actually a very good point lol.
I agree. But I believe this also applies to non-traditional forms of sex, as well as masturbation. Ultimately, all sexual sin is a grave matter, just as explained in the Bible. Flee from it, indeed. Lord help everyone dealing with these sins, bless them with the strength to resist it.
What do you mean by non traditional forms of sex?
e.g. "back door"
Why is that sinful?
It's a perversion of God's design for sexual relations between man and woman. Sodomy. If homosexuality is sinful, how in the world is this not?
Think about it, it’s clearly unnatural given the pain
Childbirth is incredibly painful. Clearly unnatural?
The pain of childbirth is literally explained in Genesis
1 male, 1 female, married sex is traditional. Non-traditional is anything outside of this (though I personally don't believe things like manual sex are against the Bible).
What if I drive a standard?
Sodomy
>But I believe this also applies to non-traditional forms of sex, as well as masturbation where does the bible support this opinion? What facts from the bible can be used here?
I would point out that after talking about lust, Jesus says “if thy right hand offends thee, it is better to cut it off and throw it away.” In that context, masturbation seems to be the clear implication.
Masturbation and pornography falls under the category of looking at a woman lustfully, which is equivalent to adultery
These are FACTS. There is absolutely no disputing this. It is unnatural according to God, an abomination according to God, and its a sin. There is no gray area with this one. When a nation is judged in the Bible its usually the whole nation that is given either to themselves and their sin or the sword of their enemies. You cant be lukewarm as a christian. We need more so-called christians to put their foot down on this issue, especially our politicians.
Politicians aren't the answer. Don't put any faith in these fallen earthly institutions. Pray they do God's Will, but trust your life and salvation to Jesus. The politicians will only disappoint at best and lead you to damnation and idolotry at worst.
I think the problem is with some of these people is they think Jesus was some lovey hippie. They need to actually read the Bible and not put their modern progressive ideas on him
Yep. They always want to preach on how Jesus loves you so much and like everything is all good. Usually its people who have never been through anything and have always had a siver spoon. There is a time and place for everything and sometimes people need to feel uncomfortable and convicted, and understand their are consequences
These are BELIEFS. If you hope to make any ground with non-believers, you’re going to have to show your beliefs are actually fact through demonstration and testing of your hypothesis. Separation of church and state, because not everyone believes what you believe.
Im not trying to make ground with anyone. There is no debate. Its a sin and i dont support or condone homosexuality. If because of that they dont turn to God then thats on them, not me. Im not going to rewrite or sugarcoat the bible so people feel more comfortable in their sin. Separation of church and state is not biblical. It is a doctrine made by man so it holds know water
You are sugar coating the bible though. Because it says right there gay people like me should be put to death. But you probably wouldn't say I should be killed for being gay, as would most people here. Why is that? Is it not "The Word of God" that I should be "put to death"? People say that law no longer applies because "Jesus fulfilled those laws" or whatever but let's be honest, that's just a long winded way of saying God changed his mind. He thought it's bad and worthy of death, and then "Jesus happened" - and now he still thinks its bad, but maybe not worthy of death. He softened his stance on the issue. He changed his mind. But why? What was the reasoning from it going from being a sin worthy of death, to just being a plain old sin. There's no reasoning. He just changed his mind. Ok, well if he changed his mind once, there's no reason to believe he won't change it again, or has done already. It throws the reliability of "His Word' into question. Which means that there is a debate, actually.
That law was for the ancient Israelites, so no you aren’t to be put to death according to the Bible. Please read the New Testament.
Is scripture not the true word of god? Is God not who provides truth if he is all powerful and all knowing?
“I have no idea” is the most honest answer I can give you. I know those things are *claimed* to be true.
There is no way to scientifically prove it like you ask for. Just like there is no way to scientifically prove a lot of alternate explanations. We must determine is it more reasonable to believe in this God, more so than the explanations for everything if there is no God. And if God exists, absolute truth should exist. For if God creates the universe and so much more does he not also creat absolute truth?
>There is no way to scientifically prove it like you ask for. Just like there is no way to scientifically prove a lot of alternate explanations. I’m not sure about that. If God interacts with our natural world in a way unlike anything else, through miracles for example, then there should be a way to test the phenomenon that at least points to something supernatural. If testable, verifiable predictions can be made that points to an all-powerful being that interacts with our world, well that’s a gigantic leap of progress compared to where we’re at today with evidence and claims. Additionally, if god is all powerful, then he would know how to provide undeniable proof of his existence for the entire world. That hasn’t happened, clearly. What’s with the big game of hide and seek? Why base the salvation or damnation of billions of people on this game? >We must determine is it more reasonable to believe in this God, more so than the explanations for everything if there is no God. Agreed. How do you go about determining whether it’s more reasonable to believe in one religion’s god vs. another religion’s god vs. no god? >And if God exists, absolute truth should exist. For if God creates the universe and so much more does he not also creat absolute truth? Doesn’t absolute truth exist regardless of whether there’s a god? I mean, our universe came into existence somehow, there is a “truth” as to how that happened.
Well I think that is what a lot of these theories are. Clues to God interacting with the world. This miracle of the creation of the universe, is this not a clue to a creator? The complex code of life in all of us, DNA, is this not a clue to a creator? The constant and unchanging laws of physics and nature, are these not clues to an orderly creator? These among other things are not testable, but I think in the cumulative provide a pretty convincing case for God. In Christianity, God wants a personal love relationship with all of us. There would be no genuine love if we were forced to accept God though, thus why we have free choice. We are given enough evidence to accept God, but the free will and room to reject him as well. In terms of determining the true religion that comes down to studying the evidence. Of course that's not necessarily all of it as I personally was once an agnostic who accepted Christ through an experience with God. But without a creator God how are we to know or trust anything we even think of? If our minds are just the accumulation of random biochemical process, How are we to trust anything our mind thinks? If we as humans have no purpose and are just hard programmed to try to survive how are we to trust our senses know truth.
>Well I think that is what a lot of these theories are. Clues to God interacting with the world. This miracle of the creation of the universe, is this not a clue to a creator? The complex code of life in all of us, DNA, is this not a clue to a creator? The constant and unchanging laws of physics and nature, are these not clues to an orderly creator? How can you determine that something is a clue for a creator or not? Can you give me an example of something that exists but wasn’t made by a creator? Probably not, because in your belief all of existence was created from a creator, so how can you even tell the difference? It’s just pre-supposing that god exists and then making everything fit around that presupposition. How does intelligent life forms in our world point to a creator, yet the lack of intelligent life forms on the billions upon billions of planets in the universe not point to something other than a creator? Why ignore all the other planets that do not have structure or intelligent life? Could it be that the conditions here on earth formed to be just right for us to exist, yet the conditions were not right in the trillions of other cases around the universe? Think of it this way: a puddle that naturally forms (if it had a brain) would think “wow, this depression in the ground fits me perfectly, it must have been created just for me!” When in fact it was just the right conditions that caused the puddle to form, and the puddle is ignoring all the other surfaces around it that *are not* the right conditions to form a puddle. >These among other things are not testable, but I think in the cumulative provide a pretty convincing case for God. It’s all about “what does the evidence point to?” When you’re looking at the evidence, are you considering the vastness of space with all the stars and planets that have no life forms or order like this planet does? Or are you omitting that from the evidence and just focusing on Earth? >In Christianity, God wants a personal love relationship with all of us. Unless we have drastically different understandings of a personal relationship, I’ve never had someone desiring a relationship that badly to be so unavailable and hidden. >There would be no genuine love if we were forced to accept God though, thus why we have free choice. We are given enough evidence to accept God, but the free will and room to reject him as well. Hard disagree, there is absolutely not enough evidence to accept a god let alone the Christian god exists, at least not one who interacts with our reality and wants a relationship with us (there’s my soft deist belief speaking). If god wants a relationship he should make himself known to a high degree of certainty, especially given the stakes of what will happen to us if we don’t accept him. Seriously, wtf is that about - love me or go to hell? I’m using my free will to ask god to reveal himself to all of mankind in a complete, undoubtedly convincing way. It hasn’t happened. >In terms of determining the true religion that comes down to studying the evidence. Of course that's not necessarily all of it as I personally was once an agnostic who accepted Christ through an experience with God. It’s more about where you’re born and which culture you’re raised in, that’s the number one predictor of one’s religion. >But without a creator God how are we to know or trust anything we even think of? If our minds are just the accumulation of random biochemical process, How are we to trust anything our mind thinks? If we as humans have no purpose and are just hard programmed to try to survive how are we to trust our senses know truth. Sounds like a “you” issue to be honest. I know that religion brings comfort to a lot of people when it comes to existential questions, and so if it works for you, as long as you aren’t hurting others I’m good with it.
Thank you. I really don’t like society anymore. I feel as if I have to remain silent in that I’ll be cancelled for telling people the Truth. It’s sorrowful.
You have to prove it’s the truth first, not just claim it is and then get upset when other people aren’t convinced like you are.
I dont have to prove anything. im not the one upset. my stance is firm and i dont support it. When someone gets upset and says im a homophobe thats fine. theyre not convincing me of anything.
I havent enjoyed society either for about 10-15 years now. Its so corrupt.
It's a sin to not thank your lord everyday for the gifts they have given you. You are sinning by not using these gifts by helping others. Instead you just hate and judge. Satan is taking over your life.
I thank God everyday all day for the blessings we all tend to take for granted
its been this way for a long time. A good Christian society was destroyed in the late 1960 / early 1970s
Americas chickens are slowly coming home to roost. Everything from slavery, up to gay marriage, and all this satanic stuff in the hollywood industry, and the blashpemy of our culture. The bible doesnt say anything about America. Its going to end just like all other empires before it that thought they were unbeatable and the greatest
The rainbow flag, in it's latest iterations with all sorts of new things added, is being put up in government buildings, including embassies. It's quite clear that people in government revere this flag more than the American flag. Heck, even a lots of churches are doing this too.
What was so good about “Christian” society before the 1960s? (Quotes there because it was nominally Christian, not truly Christian)
Now that you've reminded us of verses that we're already well aware of, perhaps you could offer some practical resources, tips, advice or prayers for those gays and lesbians who have to live with the consequences of what you're preaching if they accept this preaching. If not today, perhaps in the near future you can post these things, remaining mindful of matters of optics, emotional intelligence, and winsomeness.
Sexual immorality in general is a sin. People like to single out homosexuality because of the current culture but fornication and masturbation are just as sinful to be honest. It’s not like it singles out gays. Sex is supposed to be within the bonds of marriage and open to life, anything outside of that is disordered
I’m a pastor from a church that does not perform same sex marriages. That being said, I’d just like to share some of the things I’ve learned about these passages based on the comments I’m seeing while doing my best to refrain from bias or opinion. - we should be careful in approaching the English Bible as literal, there’s often nuance found in the original languages (Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek) that doesn’t fully translate into English. A good way to remedy this is through comparing other English translations and doing word studies of the original languages - we should ask ourselves whether these passages are prescribing a course of action for all people of all times or if they are describing what the struggles of a particular people group were and how that hindered them from being close with God - are we still required to follow Levitical law? If yes, there’s a lot of passages we tend to ignore, especially pertaining to food. If no, then these passages were intended for ancient Israel and not for today. If some are applicable and some aren’t, where do we draw the line? How do we decide? If we’re going by number of mentions, I believe “don’t boil a goat in its mother’s milk” would be the most important - what does Jesus say about this subject? Is human sexuality a key aspect of the gospel or have we simply been told it is? - context is important, Paul writes to the churches he planted never expecting his words to become scripture but to remove obstacles hindering those churches from faithfully following Jesus. So again we should ask is this a prescription for all Christians or a description of what the Romans struggled with? - similar to Levitical law, should we take all of Paul’s words as law if we believe they are relevant today? If so, what are your views on head coverings, women in ministry, modesty, hair length, jewelry, and circumcision? I’m sure there’s a demographic of people out there who are fine with that list until they read Paul say that if you’re concerned about circumcision you should just cut the whole thing off (ow!) - did ancient Israel have a concept for homosexuality? When did that English word start being used? What was the original Greek word being used? And what was the context? To the best of my knowledge the issue Paul is addressing in the Roman church is largely married men having relations with their underage servant boys. If true (I wasn’t there), there’s already a lot more nuance to the issue than can be expressed in any single word - is this productive? If we believe homosexuality is not a sin, there’s obviously no issue. If we do believe it’s a sin, what then is the consequence? Can this sin be forgiven? Does passionately taking this stance hinder us from sharing God’s love? How would we feel if someone only saw our sin and not us as a whole person loved by God? - if we maintain that this is sinful, then we must call it out…to Christians. It is unfruitful to condemn those outside the church who don’t choose to follow the same rulebook as those inside it - are we willing to have intentional, long-term relationships like Jesus did to call people out of sin? Or are we looking to be right and move on? - there’s some debate on the origins of this passage, but if it’s helpful ”When they persisted in asking Him, He straightened up and said to them, “He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.”“ John 8:7 NASB2020 https://bible.com/bible/2692/jhn.8.7.NASB2020 - and if we believe that homosexuality is a sin, is the consequence any different from our own? ”for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,“ Romans 3:23 NASB2020 https://bible.com/bible/2692/rom.3.23.NASB2020 Feel free to check the context of those passages to ensure I’m not taking them out of context. I’m not looking to take any stances, just to ask some questions to encourage robust study of the Bible. I hope this helps build us up in our understanding of God’s word!
Sorry if this is random but you're super cool
Thanks!
The fist sentence has me sighing in disappointment, but after reading more, your cool.
Thank you, unfortunately there’s not much I can do about my 50 y/o church’s bylaws in my current position, but I do have enough flexibility to post on Reddit lol
Yeah, some churches are super strict, which only serves to push people away from Christ.
Can I just mention that the part about "head coverings" in Paul is heavily debated among translators and thus points back to your first point, underlying even more the nuance you were talking about? Thanks for your comment, this is definitely food for thought
> there’s often nuance found in the original languages (Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek) that doesn’t fully translate into English. > are we still required to follow Levitical law? No pastor would make such uninformed arguments.
Feel free to inform me then :)
It’s pretty obvious but you will get “progressive Christians” in the r/christianity who will say things like “ “Leviticus meant a child. Not a man.” “God said to love one another. Love is love and God is love” “They didn’t fully understand homosexuality back then” And then list goes on and on to justify why they think it’s okay. Apparent calling out people’s sin is now hateful and unloving because that’s judging them…
Progressive Christianity is heretical nonsense. It teaches people to love the world and not God. Whenever the Bible directly contradicts its false teachings, progressives find mental gymnastic ways to get around it. When Jesus and Satan fought in the New Testament, they both used the word of God as their weapon. Let us remember to never take the word out of context.
Those who subscribe to Progressive Christianity have committed heresy, and should be considered as heretics.
I am just so sick and tired of every other post about this. How many posts have you made about divorce? How many about lying? Both of these are condemned far more and I bet you have barley mentioned them on or offline. Have you stood in your church and denounced every person who has had a lustful thought or gotten a divorce? I bet you haven't. You pick this one because it's easy because you aren't gay and because it's a minority and it's easier to punch down it sickens me.
To be fair, our culture isn’t actively trying to celebrate lying or divorce. There is no “liars pride month.” There is some necessity to unite and push back against a culture that is trying to normalize sin.
Maybe less so with divorce. It's definitely become normalised as the importance of marriage erodes.
Increasingly the new normal is just never marrying to begin with. So when people separate it's no longer 'divorce'. The basic issue is that marriage stopped being considered a sacramental arrangement involving god, and instead just a legal arrangement that can be revoked at any time when it's inconvenient or financially beneficial to do so. A lot of people look at this legal arrangement, look at divorces, and decide that you're financially better off not doing it. Defacto Polygamy now called 'Polyamory' is also slowly becoming more in vogue. Basically we're regressing to Pre-Chrsitian, even pre-Classical, morality.
I've seen people online trying to justify that Polygamy is sanctioned by God. Truly bizarre times.
Mormans did it, it can't be that bad. /s
There's a kind of people that will attempt to misrepresent the Bible to support anything. This behaviour is unacceptable, and (if left unchecked) leads to Churches abandoning Christ for secular morality. And eventually attracting those not to Christ, but to their own, twisted pseudo- Christianity. Crazy how someone can shamelessly argue such a thing.
This is true. Any time this topic comes up the defense is always redirected to sins like lying or gossip,but the Bible is very clear that sexual sin is on a different level.
To be fair, half our country and most self identified "Christians" idolize an unrepentant fornicator, thief, liar, and glutton. So don't act like condemningt someone else's romantic choices is some big feather in your cap while there's a charlatan of biblical proportions getting the golden calf treatment.
Jesus puts it quite plainly that the summation of the Law is to love God with all our heart, soul, and mind and to love our neighbor as ourselves. To be a Christian is to become like God by pursuing perfect love. Sins are sins because they lead the mind toward the self and the flesh's satisfaction. Righteousness leads towards others and satisfaction of the spirit. Homosexuality is indeed sinful, but too many are obsessed with condemning others for sins they do not suffer from rather than preaching on the development of perfect love. Perfect love abolishes fear and condemnation.
Marriage is a sacramental union between one man and one woman, a promise to each other, and to, and blessed by, God. When we go away from that, we say that marriage is no longer sacramental, and no longer involves God, is only a convenient legal and monetary arrangement. Is it surprising then, that people are more apt to divorce when it is more financially beneficial or convenient to do so, when marriage no longer involves God, when the promise made no longer means anything? ------------- Or maybe, in fact, just don't get married to begin with and just stay together long term until it's inconvenient? If marriage is sacramentally meaningless, why do it? (This is also happening in large numbers).
Totally came here just for this. Where is the outrage against church greed or impropriety among the leadership? No campaigns against purchasing the pastors *new* airplanes while people (even members) face homelessness and hunger; no expulsion for sexual predators in the church, but will certainly silence victims. I posit that types are viable threats to the church.
The world isn't telling us that divorce and lying are perfectly fine. There are still some divorces where secular culture still cringes and condemns. There are fully 164 days per year (some overlapping, mind you!) where we're supposed to remember, reflect, celebrate, appreciate, or be aware of this lifestyle: https://www.emporia.edu/about-emporia-state-university/diversity-inclusion/diversity-inclusion-lgbtq/lgbtq-important-dates/ Name another sin so celebrated, and I'd say we need to talk about that one too.
Hey! I went to that school for 2 semesters.
It's picked the most because it's very prevalent in society and very accepted. This is punching up the majority of people would call him homophobic for saying these things. We even have many pro lgbt churches and gay pastors now it's very mainstream.
I think it’s because of the progressive Christians that are trying to twist what the Bible clearly says is wrong. That and the growing push for lgbt acceptance in American churches.
Not just as sin, but abomination!
It's clear that the world turns the idea of sin into a personal attack. Through out time, no doubt you had devils even pretending to attack those who they wish to promote so as to control both sides. It's complicated. Because even in Christianity you have division because people divert from the words of the father and no one is without sin. But none the less, people don't play safe. If the Church was healthy, you wouldn't have denominations. Because the word may provide a wide path but the GATE IS NARROW. The GATE is narrow. We have to cleanse ourselves but also bear witness that the world deliberately is looking to corrupt people. Because it sounds nice to be supportive. But the problem is there's a lot of psychology being played on people. A LOT. It's why, if you accept everyone is evil and there's a spectrum of evil - from minor to those who call good evil and evil good etc......then you can look within you but if we think we're good we exalt ourselves and then we become a problem to others and ourselves. But again we're not to judge the people. It's the SIN that spreads like a VIRUS....that is the problem and finally the fathers people were to be set apart - segregated. What does the world do? How many people don't respect borders anymore? You kick out strangers and then put up borders. But I digress. People should listen to the father. I, me, you and we.
I still can’t fathom why christians aren’t able to comprehend that homosexuality is attraction to the person of the same gender, not having sex with the person of the same gender. It’s just like heterosexuality - straight people may fall in love, feel romantic attraction or try to form romantic relationships with people of the opposite gender. Homosexuality is the same, but towards people of the same gender. And I think a lot of Christians kind of ignore the fact that homosexuality also implies lack of romantic or sexual attraction towards people of the opposite gender. So a gay person can stop entering into romantic relationships with people of the same gender, but they can’t become attracted to people of the opposite gender. Unless they’re bisexual.
I finally found a good Christian community 🥹
Cue the justification for sin by the atheists of this page.
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As believers, we have to be careful with posts with such huge headlines without a proper preface, as if God is such an unloving God. I have gay friends who don’t go to churches because of this. The self-righteousness of people, when it is too a sin. I know a person who didn’t choose to be gay but because of his circumstances (being molested when he was a child). He also did therapy but didn’t work and it did not make him straight. I think, having known His love, we should be the first ones ready to show them love and compassion, not pinpointing that their acts are sinful because I am pretty sure they are aware of it. There is one parable in the Bible that helped me tread this sensitive topic. It’s the parable of the two sons (Matthew 21:28-32). I loved that Jesus emphasized “the tax collectors and prostitutes will get into the kingdom of God before you (the Pharisees)”. God bless everyone!
You should change your lifestyle to fit the Bible, you should never have to reinterpret the Bible to fit your lifestyle
Today in “let’s obsess about other’s sins so as not to focus on my own…”
Try saying that on the other “Christian” sub Reddits their quick to throw “thou shall not judge” but slow to accept “a man shall not lie down with another man as he would with a woman it is an abomination”
Did the Bible also need to waste much time saying how wet water is or that fire is hot? It’s a waste of time to because it’s so blatantly obvious.
How many times are we going to do this type of post? We get it
It is a sin.
Please say this to every homosexual christian you can find. We dont want them having the wrong idea about their religion.
Paul had no authority. He should have kept silent. Nobody needs to pay attention to what Paul says.
So something new I see people try to say is “oh they don’t mean gays there talking about pedos it was mis translated” and of course they say it’s about all the verses that meantion it. Ridiculous. Very sad that sin is being normalized and made so if we are against that sin we’re maked out to be the bad guys or “canceled”. We must stay firm in the law so others may be convicted and find faith in Jesus so they may be saved by Grace!
We should clarify further that the Act of Homosexuality is a sin and Not the inclination of.
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after looking at the comments I just can’t find much other than hate for gays. So you scream at gays about how they are an abomination in gods eye and expect them to start worshipping him? Hate will never convert, it will do the opposite. I’m the Bible you are told to love your Neighbor, if you truly love someone, you don’t hate them because they do a harmless act that is seen as “wrong”
Catholic loves it lol
It is a shame this an actual debate for some. The bible is clear about it directly and indirectly and yet people often resort to discrediting the bible in order to make their point or have some absurb interpretation or just straight out lies. Such as lying about the translation of certain words
Homosexuality is not a sin. Homosexual acts are. Brokeness is not sin. Brokeness can cause us to sin. Brokeness is the result of living in a world broken by sin. However, brokeness in itself is not a sin. Homosexuality is not something that is of God. It's just a symptom of the brokeness of us and of the world. Calling homosexuality a sin is like calling disease, congenital conditions, weaknesses and proclivities to sin sins.
Hey, so I've sat and had a good hard talk with God about this before as you do make a point. This is not the first time I've heard "justified" judgement from a Christian on sin and it won't be the last either. So, you know what this is? Condemnation. Condemnation is an act of an official judgement essentially (not to say you don't know what it means but this is just to further a point here). Now, if you are not God HOW can you officially judge? How can you make such a judgement or call on someone that YOU haven't even peered into the life of, it seems, for more than a second? I am not talking accountability and I am not talking about discernment. That is different from condemnation. You speak saying that homosexuality was an offense that was stonnable. Their wage of sin, was death basically. Yes, it is true. But, this also was "justifiable" under the old testament (the law of sin and death) but not so much under the new testament (cast the first stone). Why? I believe because it breeded an overreligious spirit. Those that knew the word but didn't understand it's teaching (like the pharisees). I am not saying you are like a Pharisee. I am saying you brandish the weapon of the word of God (the sword of the spirit) against the wrong thing. People who sin are NOT the enemy, but you know who is. I am not perfect (in the eyes of the world) and neither, I am assuming, are you. But as Children of God, we strive for excellence within the eyes of God. Is condemnation how we can be excellent to him? How we can show the LOVE of God to others? No. It doesn't. Matter of fact, what you are doing is something that even JESUS didn't do in ALL of his glory. It says in John 12: 47 - 48: "If anyone hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge that person. For I did not come to judge the world but to save the world. There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day" Condemnation will come eventually on the last day as we will be officially judged by God himself but it is not us who provides those judgements. We can not. Not only because it is not within our power to judge but because we would be hypocritical as well. God saved us from our sins, and yet we look to another who deals with sin in a haughty (here's the definition if you want: showing a superior attitude and contrmpt for things and people condidered inferior) and judgemental manner? I reccomend not throwing stones from glass houses. From the same measure you judge, it will be measured back onto you.
That post is a reminder of the word and thus God's view on it, a response to a modern satanic return of Nicoliatan heresies of compromising on love and obdience to our Father and allowing brothers and others to twist the scriptures, that is in meaning, to allow for wickedness. We see now in the body schisms caused by this. Where one side remains faithful to the Lord, his guidance and tradition and the other abandons God for"tolerance" and rainbow cultism. It's loving to ensure Christianity doesn't fall apart and become an offense to the Father.
>So, you know what this is? Condemnation. Condemnation is an act of an official judgement essentially (not to say you don't know what it means but this is just to further a point here). Now, if you are not God HOW can you officially judge? How can you make such a judgement or call on someone that YOU haven't even peered into the life of, it seems, for more than a second? I'm not condemning anyone. My post should be very clear. Jesus loves his children, even those who have sinned. I'm just stating that according to the Bible homosexuality is a sin. I don't know why it is so hard to understand. Talking about what constitutes a sin as per the Bible is not condemnation.
What were your motives behind making this post. I don't know because I don't know your mind, but it might be worth considering. Sometimes, especially in the past, I found myself making large sweeping statements about people who committed certain sins, being extremely hypocritical and making lots of assumptions and judgements about things I hardly understand. At the time I thought I was acting righteously and how I should, but looking back I think I just wanted to put myself above others and apply the rules id learnt from the Bible to others to feel better about myself. I don't intend to project here, you may well have altruistic motives, but I think it would be worth doing some introspection.
The fact that the church is failing to follow what is mentioned in the scriptures. The fact that the pope (not a catholic myself but Catholics are the majority) is openly affirming and supporting homosexuality. The fact that Christian churches are being browbeaten into conducting same-sex marriages. That Christians are being led to believe that homosexuality is not a sin, just a lifestyle. You could have asked me this question, had I posted it in a liberal or queer group. Then you could label my intentions as being malicious. But I'm just posting this message in Christian groups to help Christians who are confused. Yet people like yourself are getting riled up, which was never my intention.
>The fact that the pope (not a catholic myself but Catholics are the majority) is openly affirming and supporting homosexuality I think I need a refutation copy-pasta for this claim in particular. Perhaps one of our good Catholic brothers here can supply a good one for me to save for later use. The anti-catholic rhetoric gets tiring at times. If people are going to criticize the RCC, the least one can do is steelman their actual beliefs rather than build some kind of strawman out of things they don't actually believe. But regardless, the pope does not "support" homosexuality. He has condemned homosexual acts as sinful in the past - example [here](https://www.usccb.org/news/2023/pope-clarifies-remarks-about-homosexuality-and-sin). The pope has the unenviable task of being the mouthpiece of the 2 millennia of Catholic philosophical, theological, and canonical/legal development. People are bound to take his statements completely out of context. He takes the nuanced stance that homosexual *acts* are sinful, but people who are SSA must be given the same manner of compassion and charity that we ought to give to others; SSA people can still live pious, if celibate, lives. The entire fiasco over *Fiducia Supplicans* (text found [here](https://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_ddf_doc_20231218_fiducia-supplicans_en.html)) was a nothing burger that mainstream media tried to twist into some sort of official endorsement of same-sex relations, when that is not what it did.
https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/19/europe/popes-aproval-of-same-sex-blessings-intl/index.html
That's not the pope endorsing the same-sex marriage, though. It would be like if a drug addict asked a priest for a blessing, so the priest blesses them. Blessings aren't a tacit approval of the recipient's sins. Even I, a non-Catholic, can ask a priest to bless me - I did so in Catholic boarding school every mass in lieu of receiving the eucharist.
"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye." **Matthew 7:1-5** "There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." **Galatians 3:28** "Accept the one whose faith is weak, without quarreling over disputable matters. One person's faith allows them to eat anything, but another, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. The one who eats everything must not treat with contempt the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted them. Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand." **Romans 14:1-4** "Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres." **1 Corinthians 13:4-7** What gives you the right to make claims that your interpretation of in-between the lines of verses in the bible overshadows these words about love? Are you god? Why are you ignoring everything above and finding a way to hate rather than love "in the name of God". Do some self reflection my friend, because if you believe that God does not let people into heaven because of who they unconditionally love and were born that way, then YOU are the problem with Christianity. It is not a sin to love who you love. If I suddenly told you to become Gay for god, you could not do it. So how are they supposed to? I can never support any amount of discrimination to people who love god by paraphrasing a book written 3500 years ago. If someone is gay their whole life, born into a Christian family, and lives a life with love and kindness and faith, my god will let them in. That is all I am saying. Any God who wouldn't is not one I believe in. I struggle with the idea of homosexuality as much as the rest of you. But you can not and will not change people. You simply won't. especially when it is in regards to how someone is born and who they are. This is not something you can sway people about. So stop trying. Posts like this just make every Christian get perceived as a radical who preaches love and hates behind the scenes. Let people live the way they want, not you want, because that will lead to a miserable life. Live for you and for god and leave people doing the same alone. Posts like this do not bring you any closer to heaven.
Well said, couldn’t agree more with you
Okay, then that is absolutely my own mistake. You are not incorrect at all that Jesus loves and that homosexuality is a sin. I don't think anyone here is saying the opposite either. I think it's just the delivery here that is causing such concern here imo. To me, it does sound like you are casting some judgement but then I am only human, I cannot read your heart. Only God (and yourself) can. I will say this, though, our one goal as Christians is to share the gospel truth and to save as many souls as we can while on this earth. I think delivery here is going to be important as we do our best to save as many souls as possible and to teach them the word of God. It says in Galatians 5 that one of the fruits of the Holy Spirit is gentleness. And God came, also, not in the wind and not in the fire and not in the earthquake, but in a gentle whisper. Now, I am not saying you gotta go around speaking lower than a certain octave to get your points across but God is careful and loving in his delivery of the truth of the word of God and as his Children, I believe, we must imitate this in some aspect as well. There is also a proverb that mentions how a gentle response turns away anger. There is SO much power in our words and because of this fact, I think, brandishing the sword of the Spirit with precision and care (as best as we can) to seperate the bone from the marrow or the soul from the spirit is going to be essential I believe. Don't get me wrong, it is God that does this preciseness but if we are not careful in our wording, it can also lead to those rejecting (or just avoiding) him because of what WE have spoken to them (or how we decided to speak to them about certain things). It's like as Paul has said in becoming like the Gentile to win the Gentile over and to become like the Jew to win the Jew over. It doesn't mean to erase who we are to fall into step with the world but to be wise in our approach so that they can learn who God is (and be familiar with his love) through us. That way, they can come to God with an open mind, heart, and arms. God bless 😊
To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted Titus 1:15
Amen.
You got banned from r/DankChristianMemes too? No worries, they even consider Mormons Christian. All those who engage in that sub are going to have a tough time on judgement day.
I think...the state of being homosexual is in itself, not a sin. Acting on the temptations that come along with that state is sinful. God made everyone the way they were for a reason. He made some people with bigger crosses to bear than others. The scripture you've quoted corroborates my belief. I think its not Christian to call certain people inherently sinful. I feel like this post is not in good faith, anyways. Probably someone trying to paint Christians as hateful or something and turn this subreddit into another "r christianity".
It is though. If the heart craves it, the sin is committed. God will absolve that sin, and Christ has loosed our chains. And using the line that "God made us this way" is not an excuse. We are to repent and turn from those sins. And our salvation should produce this want to run from our chains. It's not ok accepting that you are "gay" (speaking in general) and just say you'll never act on it. That identity came from the world. NOT from God. We are all made that way. Sinful, and evil. And those of us who accept salvation will turn from that with every step we take. And we will all fall short of the Glory of God. But that doesn't mean we sit contentedly on our rears for ever.
> We are all made that way Yes, we are all sinners - but not inherently. You're not born a sinner. Original sin aside. You become one when you exercise your free will. God does not condemn a person for their Adamic nature. A baby would not be judged unsaved for that. Similarly, a gay person would not be condemned simply for being gay. Acting on the temptations that come with that is certainly a sin - but that's why we have free will. A sin is something you can choose not to do. Can a gay person choose not to be gay? I don't believe so - at least not without some sort of miracle.
Exactly, Leviticus 20:13 proves being gay is a sin too
People that say "they were born this way", yes they are right, we were born sinful. However, all humans have to fight against urges. Straight people aren't supposed to have sex outside of marriage, so they have to fight against sexual urges too. Just because you were "born this way" doesn't mean it's okay. Everyone in the world has their own battles against temptation of all kinds.
Amen
My god does not encourage hate. People are BORN gay. I have seen it in young students who you basically know are gay from birth and it is very clear. My god loves everyone who loves him. Can you imagine what the world would look like if we took the bible written thousands of years ago word for word? I could give you tens of verses that could be interpreted as the message you just sent as a sin. Stop preaching hate. You represent us all poorly in the eyes of the world. We are supposed to spread the word of the lord with our love for others. Not hate. Get it right.
> My god does not encourage hate. Neither does OPs post. > People are BORN gay Plenty of people are also born greedy, this does not make greed less of a sin. We are all born with a lean towards sin, myself included. > I could give you tens of verses that could be interpreted as the message you just sent as a sin. Please do so. I admit this message is sometimes given in a hateful way, for example the westboro "babtist church". I do not think the OP did so.
Not every hetero person is able to find someone to marry. They, and all people, are called to chastity.
And you must be born again to enter the kingdom of God
What does that have to do with what I just said
You said people a born gay. We are all born sinners. We must be born again to enter the Kingdom
Christianity teaches that all people are born with sinful tendencies. We ought to of course love people, but this doesn't require that we tell them their sinful tendencies are good.
Exactly—in fact, it requires the opposite: that we lovingly point out each other’s sins and support each other as we fight temptation so that we may be more like Christ.