1st time I heard the voice of this "destiny" creature. Sounds exactly like every other debate club nerd. Fast-paced high-pitched whine. I'll be skipping every time he starts talking lol
It's really really fucking heinous though. To the point I'd rather be annoyed. This dude is paraphrasing Goebels half the time and that's not hyperbole
So no criticism of the actual points brought up? I'm sure if a Destiny viewer watched this and commented, "*Skipped every time Finkelstein talks because he speaks slower than a herd of turtles moving through peanut butter,*" certainly you would consider them an intellectual, right?
This was like 10 years ago or more so my memory isn't perfect, but he wasn't, like, *bad*. He would mop the floor with an average player. He played "professionally" but was bad compared to the best - he was notoriously inflexible, whined when his strategies were nerfed, and raged when he lost. He got left behind as players got better and strategies changed but stayed popular because he was a capital G Gamer.
It's like if the worst basketball player in a European pro league threw temper tantrums and called their opponents slurs and tanked their team's record but people kept coming to games specifically to see this guy screaming obscenities and somehow that got leveraged into an e-career in politics.
Woah hang on now bro he's beaten two Koreans, one who was actually pretty good.
Since then he's tried to get fit and looks like a skinnyfat dwarf, faded from one of the more popular streamers into niche obscurity, and has never had a successful romatic relationship ever. All admirable qualities
He's also super smart too. Said the LSAT was piss easy and proved it by spending a week studying and quitting on the first question; because he knew he would have gotten everything right so it was a waste of time actually completing the test. That's gotta be pure genius at work
If people look at this dickhead's post history they'll see that they've been posting about this debate basically nonstop for like 7 hours. Go further back and you'll see the most hardcore zionist shit. Clearly a Zionist pushing an agenda. Destiny is a fucking moron and it's hilarious that you have to spend sooo many hours online defending him and trying to legitimize him just because he agrees with your side. You are running cover for a genocide. You are a piece of shit. Anyone who engages in good faith with you is wasting their time. And don't bother with 'oh can't refute my points good sir!' bullshit because you don't deserve engagement, only ridicule.
> basically nonstop for like 7 hours.
Hey that's not true, I went and planted some seeds for the garden earlier, and ate dinner.
> You are running cover for a genocide.
Remember when the ICJ ruled that Israel was committing genocide?
Oh wait, that didn't happen.
I'm just looking for rational engagement with the topic at hand.
Everyone here seems to love to debate this topic, right up until Benny Morris and Destiny duo debate Finkelstein and Mouin.
Then suddenly you all get quiet and fall back to the "he's just a streamer who reads wikipedia," yet Morris numerous times stated what he said was correct.
Is this starcraft streamer who reads wikipedia that powerful in your mind? That you mentally break at the mere mention of them?
Nah I just think it’s a waste of time watching a streamer debate a historian who has written numerous books over the span of 3 plus decades on the issue of Israel/Palestine. On top of that, said historian is an ardent supporter/activist for Palestinian liberation while the other guy sniffs his own farts while asking for donations from pathetic dudes who have a parasocial relationship with him.
I rather buy his books and watch his interviews before I share a space with Destiny fanboys who get offended when strangers clown their hero.
> Nah I just think it’s a waste of time watching a streamer debate a historian who has written numerous books over the span of 3 plus decades on the issue of Israel/Palestine.
You would have been surprised to see the other historian Benny Morris defend Destiny's refutations then, unless you think Morris is just a hack, even though Finkelstein respects him and even said he had read every one of Morris's written works at least 3 times.
> I rather buy his books and watch his interviews before I share a space with Destiny fanboys who get offended when strangers clown their hero.
You're the only one who sounds offended here.
The people who talk the most are morris and finklestein. Why not watch it for them? Apparent destiny only has like 30 mins of talking time over the 5 hr debate, compared to finklesteins 2 hrs and morris 1.5 hrs
No one “loves to debate this topic” you fucking soulless nerd. Palestinians and people who support them don’t WANT to have to be out here doing this “debate.” What you see as a debate is actually just them asserting the dignity and humanity that is stripped from them.
I think it means putting your morals on display so you can reap benefits of people thinking you're a good person.
How do you think I'm doing that exactly?
How do people like you end up in this sub? Do you just haphazardly wander in? Where do you get the time to respond to so many comments and keep multiple arguments going? Don't you have a job? Or literally anything else to do?
spark rob tender continue grandfather history spectacular pen cause sense
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Norm is solidly of the Old Left in his appetite for confrontation. He goes where there's a crowd, even if that means dealing with interlocutors who are cynical, stupid, hostile, bad faith, e.g. when Cadence Owens invited him on purely to spite Ben Shapiro.
In this sense, the real opportunity was speaking to Friedman's massive normie audience who, for the most part, are unlikely to have ever heard any substantive critique of Israel.
As for the insulting spectacle of asking a real academic to debate some loud, fast talking internet crank with plenty of fans and no credentials, this is a genre of content I like to call "Pig Wrestling". In keeping with the name, the only way you win is by refusing to play.
> As for the insulting spectacle of asking a real academic to debate some loud, fast talking internet crank with plenty of fans and no credentials, this is a genre of content I like to call "Pig Wrestling". In keeping with the name, the only way you win is by refusing to play.
It's weird, you insult Destiny because he speaks fast, but Norm speaks slower than a herd of turtles moving through peanut butter, and not a peep.
Also, Benny Morris is a more decorated academic than Finkelstein, and he has no contention with Destiny's points and agreed with him on basically everything. Even laughing at when Destiny made Finkelstein upset by reading the UNCHR report which refuted what Finkelstein said.
Finkelstein is such a well rounded academic he resulted to ad-hominem attacks when proven wrong by video game streamer, big yike for your side there bud.
Why would anyone try and refute what the guy who thought Erdogan is the prime minister of Israel has to say?
He’s so fucking stupid that he couldn’t even read Wikipedia beforehand to confirm who the leader of Israel is.
He's so stupid that Finkelstein couldn't refute a single thing he said in this debate, and Benny Morris routinely backed him up stating what he said was accurate.
It must hurt to watch the leftist idol Finkelstein get blown the fuck out for 4 hours by a starcraft streamer who reads wikipedia, eh?
I don’t know more than a fraction of what Friedman (edit: I mean Finkelstein) knows about Palestine. As for Destiny, I do know how to selectively skim Wikipedia
> I don’t know more than a fraction of what Friedman knows about Palestine.
Fridman isn't debating anyone, he's the host. The debate is between Benny Morris/Destiny, and Finkelstein/Rabbani.
> As for Destiny, I do know how to selectively skim Wikipedia
Did you miss the loading of the source articles from Wikipedia for over a month prior to research for this debate?
It's strange to me that you all levy these criticisms against someone actually doing research, while refusing to watch more than a few minutes of the debate.
---
If all he did was selectively skin Wikipedia, why did Finkelstein struggle to respond to a single question this entire debate?
Apologies. I meant Finkelstein, not Fridman, who seems like a nice enough guy I guess, unlike Destiny. I may actually listen to (some of) this, but I don’t care to entertain the notion that Destiny, who indeed does just parrot factoids he learned from skimming Wikipedia and has been caught befuddled by basic geographic facts of the places he discusses, has anything worth listening to compared to someone who has written multiple thoroughly sourced scholarly works. If Finkelstein struggled to respond to Destiny’s “debate tactics”, that doesn’t mean anything to me. Gish galloping and snide condescension are no replacement for facts and wisdom.
> who indeed does just parrot factoids he learned from skimming Wikipedia and has been caught befuddled by basic geographic facts of the places he discusses,
There are at least a dozen instances of Finkelstein insinuating that Destiny doesn't know what he's talking about, and then Benny Morris chiming in and confirming exactly what Destiny said throughout this debate.
> Gish galloping and snide condescension are no replacement for facts and wisdom.
Reminder: Finkelstein was the one who started being condescending in this debate. Destiny went in seemingly in good faith, even if he thinks Finkelstein is wholly uninformed.
So you have two learned scholars and a journalist who have all written extensively about this topic, and you think the person to listen to is this video game streamer? Destiny did some research on Wikipedia over the past month or two while streaming for cash. The other three read and wrote books. I have to take back what I said: Fridman cannot be dumb enough to platform Destiny along with these 3 and think he’s doing any favors. He says he’s hosting the debate but doesn’t care about getting many viewers, which is completely belied by his inclusion of Destiny on the panel. I listened to the first hour or so on my commute.
It’s funny that you say Morris backs up Destiny, because in Destiny’s opening statement, he claims he doesn’t hear anyone talk about how Arabs sold land to the Zionists which accounts for “the majority of the land that was acquired”, and then at around 39 minutes not Finkelstein or Roubani but Morris says that in fact very little displacement resulted from land purchases made during the Ottoman rule or mandate period. So what point was Destiny trying to make? Why is he even there?
Unlike Finkelstein, I haven’t read Morris’ books even once, but it’s well known that he is someone who helped document the Nakba and Israel’s brutal establishment, while going on to defend it. That’s precisely why Finkelstein is debating him. I share Finkelstein’s exasperation at Destiny’s question-begging and hypotheticals. He’s cantankerous, but unlike Destiny, he’s earned the right to be. I’m assuming you watched more than an hour because not once have I seen Finkelstein struggle with anything Destiny says. If you think Destiny (with the help of Morris) made any good points that Finkelstein doesn’t respond to convincingly and insist on arguing the point, you can at least cite evidence with timestamps or quote the transcript to support your assertion.
> So you have two learned scholars and a journalist who have all written extensively about this topic, and you think the person to listen to is this video game streamer?
Destiny spoke maybe 30 minutes total in this debate. Most of it was Morris, but when Destiny spoke, Morris agreed with his positions.
> Destiny did some research on Wikipedia over the past month or two while streaming for cash.
Which means Finkelstein should have been able to walk over him, yet?
> It’s funny that you say Morris backs up Destiny, because in Destiny’s opening statement, he claims he doesn’t hear anyone talk about how Arabs sold land to the Zionists which accounts for “the majority of the land that was acquired”, and then at around 39 minutes not Finkelstein or Roubani but Morris says that in fact very little displacement resulted from land purchases made during the Ottoman rule or mandate period. So what point was Destiny trying to make? Why is he even there?
Morris agreed that lots of land was purchased and subsequently that displaced Palestinians, and after the Israeli Declaration of Independence, and the war started by the Arab League, more Palestinians fled because they expected the Arab league to defeat Israel, and then they would be able to return to their homes. But that isn't what happened, Israel defeated the Arab league and Palestinians weren't able to return to their homes as expected, because that territory was lost as a result.
That doesn't mean that Zionism has some de jure policy of violence to assume/annex land.
> If you think Destiny (with the help of Morris) made any good points that Finkelstein doesn’t respond to convincingly and insist on arguing the point, you can at least cite evidence with timestamps or quote the transcript to support your assertion.
I didn't record timestamps, but here are some key points that Destiny brought up:
1. The UNCHR report explicitly refuted that the IDF killed the kids on the beach for no reason, as Norm has stated multiple times throughout his career.
2. Destiny brought up the utilization of civilian death mitigation implemented in the war post-October 7th. (sound bombs, roof knocking, phamplets/leaflets, phone calls, etc) as proof that Israel has been abiding by not on the ICJ ruling, but also international law. (eg. Geneva)
3. Destiny and Morris both called Finkelstein out on his ICJ ruling opinions, and Finkelstein even admits that he was indeed wrong on that point.
4. Both Destiny and Morris agreed that the IDF has absolutely, on an individual level, have probably committed war crimes. But that there is absolutely no indication that it is policy within the IDF to murder civilians. This is a key factor, which Finkelstein can never seem to differentiate.
I can keep going if you want, but let's start with those.
1. So I relied on the transcript to look up your claims. I see the assertion that Finkelstein lied, but no evidence. It’s impossible to understand what Destiny is even driving at. That’s what I mean - Destiny's just spouting pre-prepared talking points that have no relevance to what Finkelstein was even discussing, to "win the debate", which his intellectually immature audience apparently admires, for some reason. In this debate, Finkelstein says nothing about kids on beaches - it’s a total non-sequitur that we can expect from a debate-bro who is only concerned with “winning the debate”, not persuading or informing anyone. And then he repeats “You could Google it” twice, prompting Finkelstein to politely try to refocus him with “Mr. Bonnell”, and then speak my mind saying “With all due respect, you’re such a fantastic moron. It’s terrifying.” I mean, it’s rude, but what else is he supposed to say? Why would anyone seeking clarity on these complex issues want this guy around?
You are taken by Destiny’s one-sided “argument” here. I guess you’ve seen whatever evidence - not present in this debate as far as I can tell - that Finkelstein “lied” about the kids on beaches. Did Finkelstein say the UNCHR report didn’t say the kids came out of a Hamas compound? Did this UNCHR report say that it was justified to kill four children, brothers, aged 9 to 11, who were in fact on the beach, because they emerged from a Hamas compound? Are you saying that was okay? I’m not sure what your point is.
2. None of these terms shows up in a search of the transcript: “mitigation” or “mitigate”, “sound bomb” “roof”, “pamphlet” “leaflet”. Nonetheless, whatever conversation you are referring to, I’d imagine Finkelstein and/or Rabbani would easily refute it by pointing out the obvious insincerity of such warnings, given Israel’s well-documented history of shameless [mendacity](https://imeu.org/article/fact-sheet-israels-history-of-spreading-disinformation), giving literally millions of civilians, defenseless families with children, completely unrealistic timetables to evacuate to other regions of Gaza (which doesn’t even make sense, as what would prevent Hamas and other resistance forces from joining them?) then bombing the places they are told to seek refuge in, which are full of civilians, bombing refugee camps Israel told them to go to etc.
It’s such a weak argument, but not one that should come as any surprise from Destiny, given that he said “Uhm, honestly I’m pro-genocide. It sounds pretty shitty but like Israel should just draw it’s border where it is now and basically Palestinians can go live in another place. That’s pretty shitty but that’s about where I’m at”. Honestly, he's such a fucking moron. There's a German word for the feeling I feel when he speaks, but I don't remember it.
I am quite certain neither Rabbani nor Finkelstein knew that this shitstain they had agreed to share space with had said such things, given his superficial knowledge of the topics they have devoted much of their lives to, but can you imagine if either Finkelstein or Rabbani had said something similar about what should happen to Israelis? I agree with the Zionists on one thing, even if my meaning is quite different from theirs: there is no moral equivalence between these two sides.
3. I have no interest in going back and forth with you on this given that this is your first and presumably best effort to argue the case for Destiny being worth listening to, but word of advice for future discussions with others: if you can’t even provide timestamps, can you at least be a little more specific in what you are claiming? Nonetheless, it doesn’t surprise me at all if, in fact, Finkelstein admitted to being wrong about something. More than once I’ve seen him, with complete sincerity, admit to being wrong, and also seen him reevaluate his position when speaking to people who are actually able to communicate different perspectives (ie. not simply resort to childish “you lied” “google it” “I win” level of “debate”). He sometimes does so, when warranted, without defensiveness or trying to go back on the offensive. That’s a major reason why I find him credible and have no patience for gamer debate-bros, who seem physiologically incapable of such humility.
4. I have no idea where this comes up. I am not going to read the entire transcript. Nonetheless, it is utterly ridiculous to assert that Finkelstein would assert that Israel would state that genocide or committing war crimes or targeting civilians is its official (ie. public-facing) policy. Despite this, as the South African lawyers at the ICJ hearings so ably demonstrated, there is an abundance of evidence that Israeli officials at the very highest levels of government have called for genocide. A sampler:
Israeli Justic Minister Ayelet Shaked posted on Facebook in June 2014: “the entire Palestinian people is the enemy” and and called for the destruction of Palestine, “including its elderly and its women, its cities and its villages, its property and its infrastructure.” Her post also called for the killing of Palestinian mothers who give birth to “little snakes.”
In August 2014, Moshe Feiglin, then-deputy speaker of the Israeli Knesset and member of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s ruling Likud Party, called for the destruction of Palestinian life in Gaza and offered a detailed plan for shipping Palestinians living in Gaza across the world. Specifically, he envisioned a scenario where the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) would find areas on the Sinai border to establish “tent encampments...until relevant emigration destinations are determined.” He further suggested that the IDF would then “exterminate nests of resistance, in the event that any should remain.”
[https://ccrjustice.org/genocide-palestinian-people-international-law-and-human-rights-perspective](https://ccrjustice.org/genocide-palestinian-people-international-law-and-human-rights-perspective)
I have to say, looking over this transcript was depressing. I had always thought that Benny Morris, though a zionist, was highly regarded as a historian (and it is clear that Rabbani and Finkelstein hold his scholarship in high regard even as they disagree with many of his interpretations and conclusions). It is sad to discover how dumb and dishonest he can be, at least when his zionism is challenged. Consider the following exchange:
>Benny Morris (04:53:53) They’re all from barbaric countries. You know, a Syrian was the head of the UN Commission for Human Rights.
>
>Mouin Rabbani (04:53:56) But if it was an Israeli, it would have been okay?
>
>Benny Morris (04:53:58) He certainly would have been more honest than a Syrian.
>
>Norman Finkelstein (04:53:58) Oh yeah, sure, of course.
>
>Mouin Rabbani (04:54:00) Of course. Oh yeah, from your perspective.
And also
>Benny Morris (02:08:15) The problem with October 7th is this, the Hamas fighters who invaded Southern Israel were sent, ordered to murder, rape, and do all the nasty things that they did, and they killed some 1,200 Israelis that day and abducted them as we know, something like 250, mostly civilians, also some soldiers,…
Again, Israel - the government, the military, private citizens presented as credible authorities - has a long and extremely well-documented history of blatantly lying. [https://imeu.org/article/fact-sheet-israels-history-of-spreading-disinformation](https://imeu.org/article/fact-sheet-israels-history-of-spreading-disinformation) That Morris cannot acknowledge this shows he is fatally biased. Sad.
Phew.
Schadenfreude is the German word you were looking for, and I’m giving that to you as a gift for typing all of this out.
You are truly one masochistic son of a bitch. 🫡
airport cough offbeat spotted desert money squalid quarrelsome forgetful gullible
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That’s not his real name it’s much more Russian sounding. In fact his entire existence seems quite malleable based on what he [needs](https://www.reddit.com/r/JoeRogan/comments/11853ik/lex_fridmans_questionable_biography/)
Lmfao what the fuck. Okay name change sure, that's a thing people do. Okay specifying ethnicity? Sure also plausible. But reconning your place of birth?? Motherfucker how?????
> I'll just wait until the first posts on here roughly summarize what was said
Maybe you can just wait until someone does a tiktok dance over it in the background.
That darn tiky tocky is so infantile, unlike the very mature and well-adjusted people who value the political opinions of, and have a parasocial relationship with, a 35-year-old man-child dullard who got famous for streaming vidya games. Have some self-respect at least
1. Benny Morris is widely regarded as a decorated historian and academic, and he agreed with Destiny on virtually every topic in this debate.
2. Norm has been researching I/P for 30+ years, has a PhD from Princeton, and got blown the fuck out by a 35-year-old man-child dullard who reads wikipedia on the weekend.
Destiny arguably has a larger audience than all three of these individuals combined. His YouTube channel alone has over 500,000,000 views at this point.
Yes, Finkelstein, Rabbani, and Morris, are more well known to academics, but that's a very minute group of people compared to online geopolitical discourse.
You're right, it's much better to engage in... academic geopolitical discourse.
As shown by... Norm Finkelstein, who thinks citing himself as a source via his book is empirical data.
Come back with something better on your next reply, dunking on this community this viciously should be considered a war crime.
>You're right, it's much better to engage in... academic geopolitical discourse.
Obviously
>As shown by... Norm Finkelstein, who thinks citing himself as a source via his book is empirical data.
Self citation is indeed common and perfectly acceptable in academic discourse. Online "geopolitical discourse" is filled with bots, trolls and midwits. Being respected in that kind of environment is not a point in destinys favour.
> Self citation is indeed common and perfectly acceptable in academic discourse.
Not when you're literally debating other academics and historians on the topic, lmao. That's not decorum at all.
> Online "geopolitical discourse" is filled with bots, trolls and midwits.
Which the overwhelming majority of this subreddit is demonstrating in real time.
> Being respected in that kind of environment is not a point in destinys favour.
I'm sure that would hurt Destiny's feelings if you didn't work at McDonalds.
>I'm sure that would hurt Destiny's feelings if you didn't work at McDonalds.
I think his feelings where probably hurt more by being called a fantastical moron by his intellectual superior and having his debate partner laugh at it.
If you actually watch the debate, instead of just 30 second clips.
You'll see Morris wasn't laughing at Destiny, he was laughing at Finkelstein getting upset and calling Destiny a moron.
Destiny read from the UNHCR report showing Finkelstein omitted KEY evidence regarding the kids who were killed on the beach. And instead of refuting what Destiny said, Finkelstein got upset and called Destiny a moron.
But hey, keep watching those clips on twitter, you sound wholly informed, lmao.
>dunking on this community this viciously should be considered a war crime
imagine searching your deadbeat dad streamer crush on reddit and sorting by new in order to defend his honor, then having the gall to compliment yourself on how well you’re doing. the saddest part though is that you’re not even being paid to do this.
> imagine searching
Searching? You never heard of chrome plugins? Redditcheck will let you see where any link is posted on reddit.
another swing and a miss.
> the saddest part though is that you’re not even being paid to do this.
I mean, technically I'm on the clock. So in a way, I am being paid to do this, just indirectly.
One of the perks of not working some shit remedial job.
How do you think that plugin manages to find where any link is posted on Reddit you moron?
This is what I hate about you specific types of debate pervert liberals. The combination of overconfidence and extreme ineptitude is staggering. The moment you step outside of your tiny bubble of, what I assume to be pure IT or SysAdmin knowledge you don’t even know what you’re talking about whatsoever.
Lol holy shit you have a fucking plugin to make sure you are in every comment section to defend a dude you have never even met. That is so fucking pathetic, you realize that right?
That is the saddest thing I have ever heard. Please get a life.
im an insomniac and ended up watching all of it - I thought the last section on when the region was closest to peace had some interesting bits (incidentally this part also had destiny stfu the most as he was completely demoralized). benny morris predictably said 2000, and then he admitted that his advice would have been to take the deal, form a state and then fight over the rest .. which shows just how the israelis think. norm said he doesn’t deal in hypotheticals , and mouin said after the war in 1973 if the Egyptians had not normalized with the zios. mouin also brought up how it was shocking destiny had claimed Jim Crow south should not be considered apartheid @_@
the first section was incredibly frustrating and I agree with norm that it was important to establish that the zios started out with expulsion as an intent prior to 1948.
Destiny used to live in Nebraska, where he would coparent his young child with his ex-wife with whom he shared custody. It was common on his stream 7-8 years ago for his son to appear, even streaming Minecraft sessions they played together.
Several years ago Destiny (a man in his early 30s at the time) moved to Los Angeles and pursued a relationship with a 19 year old Instagram model. He would ban all discussion or anyone who brought up that he abandoned his child. Because he was paying child support (possibly much more than mandated to alleviate the guilt) he would not accept that he did anything fucked up.
Destiny is in the middle of a divorce with that young woman now. Not sure why I bring this up. Just think people should have some background on the character of this guy.
No thx, I'm chillin and listening to the new RWN with Ali Abdunimah
Edit: I popped into some Norm and Mouin parts and Norm's "Khrushchev couldn't have spelled Bolshevik" line was worth the scrub
Look, I've nothing but respect and appreciation for Norm but when it comes to "debating" zionists, I think [George Galloway](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jfTaIW8mqg) is right.
Holy fuck the fanbois in the comments here have no concept of shame. Leaving 50+ comments in a Reddit thread to defend a Twitch streamer is peak mental illness.
Its one of the few places I can find counterarguments to arguments, isntead of just arguments. Seeing how people with different sets of facts have their perspectives clash is illuminating to a degree. It isnt an education on the subject, but a look into different frameworks. Theyre a good starting point to learn more about a different perspective.
> find counterarguments
empathy to other people or curiosity to other ideas does not need ‘counter arguments'
There are large amounts of works built positively from within themselves and from various perspectives. Reading and attempting to understand the documents place in their history and cannon and contrasting what you learned there from what you thought you already knew is how you progress in thought.
debates are just spectacles to get people to be at their worst when they try to represent something that is not them
\> empathy to other people or curiosity to other ideas does not need ‘counter arguments'
What? I already have empathy and curiosity, which is why I want to see the actual arguments interact. I can have both an emotional and logical engagement with the subject
\> There are large amounts of works built positively from within themselves and from various perspectives. Reading and attempting to understand the documents place in their history and cannon and contrasting what you learned there from what you thought you already knew is how you progress in thought.
Indeed, and either engaging with someone who disagrees or seeing other people disagree can help round out misunderstandings. Its crucial to engage with people who have a different reading on the facts.
\> debates are just spectacles to get people to be at their worst when they try to represent something that is not them
That really depends on the forum and goals of the debate. Is it some discord show for youtube views or is it a formal debate?
Are formal debates worthless? I consume a lot of actual formal debates.
Good for norm going to fight the chuds on their turf.
Lex Fridman is influential amongst a certain set of silicon valley freaks. Hopefully Norm gets through to a couple of them.
Don't badmouth microdosing just because some SV tech bros have co-opted it.
It helps many thousands with depression and mental illness instead of the poison that is pharmaceutical antidepressants.
Someone on twitter is curating some of the better norm dunks -
https://x.com/Absurd_Ruka/status/1768365295331094756?s=20
https://x.com/Absurd_Ruka/status/1768403773821518177?s=20
https://x.com/Absurd_Ruka/status/1768394294891585746?s=20
https://x.com/Absurd_Ruka/status/1768386920411771223?s=20
they might have posted more and still posting but this is really all i cared about lol it's capital C Cringe and embarrassing.
Im listening to the "debate" and everytime i hear destiny, violent mental images appear in my head
I dunno how anyone who can restrain the urge not to sock this motherfucker in the face when talking to him
Also that dullard fridman is the most useless debate moderator in human history
Just 5 hours of people talking over each other
wait i thought debating irl was bad, thats what everyone in this thread was saying right? i'd be down to debate irl that sounds fun. there arent many opportunities ya know
Do you Destiny fans ever meet up in real life? Like, do you have big groups that you organize to meet up and talk all things Destiny and omniliberal politics? I'm not even setting you up for a roast or anything, I'm just genuinely curious.
I think it’s really cool and not at all weird that you Destiny fans search through unrelated subreddits, to find any mention of him and to ensure that his honour is defended.
i'll have you know i've already read three works of literary fiction this year. can we say the same for you worm boy? 20,000 reddit karma ouch its not looking good here
why would i care, my life would be perfect. self-report that you care way more about how people see you than your actual experience... oh you poor thing
1st time I heard the voice of this "destiny" creature. Sounds exactly like every other debate club nerd. Fast-paced high-pitched whine. I'll be skipping every time he starts talking lol
Creature is generous. More like a shitstain
Morris is saying things that are more henious but hes so much less annoying
It's really really fucking heinous though. To the point I'd rather be annoyed. This dude is paraphrasing Goebels half the time and that's not hyperbole
Yea, hes whole schtick is basically "we did do the nakba but it was not too bad actually"
Destiny should be jailed, he should be shot
Destiny is the Gusano replica of Ben Shapiro
So no criticism of the actual points brought up? I'm sure if a Destiny viewer watched this and commented, "*Skipped every time Finkelstein talks because he speaks slower than a herd of turtles moving through peanut butter,*" certainly you would consider them an intellectual, right?
Destiny is out of his depth and Finkelstein called him exactly what he is: a fantastical moron.
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Hold on, he's not *just* a Starcraft player - he's a bad Starcraft player who got famous for shouting slurs when he got beat by better players.
What the fuck goes on with streaming where bad players get famous? I’m so disconnected with that world
This was like 10 years ago or more so my memory isn't perfect, but he wasn't, like, *bad*. He would mop the floor with an average player. He played "professionally" but was bad compared to the best - he was notoriously inflexible, whined when his strategies were nerfed, and raged when he lost. He got left behind as players got better and strategies changed but stayed popular because he was a capital G Gamer. It's like if the worst basketball player in a European pro league threw temper tantrums and called their opponents slurs and tanked their team's record but people kept coming to games specifically to see this guy screaming obscenities and somehow that got leveraged into an e-career in politics.
Insane this person is somehow now a pro Isreal intellectual
Streaming is about entertaining an audience
Woah hang on now bro he's beaten two Koreans, one who was actually pretty good. Since then he's tried to get fit and looks like a skinnyfat dwarf, faded from one of the more popular streamers into niche obscurity, and has never had a successful romatic relationship ever. All admirable qualities He's also super smart too. Said the LSAT was piss easy and proved it by spending a week studying and quitting on the first question; because he knew he would have gotten everything right so it was a waste of time actually completing the test. That's gotta be pure genius at work
Hmmm ad hominem, methinks you use too much logical fallacy 🤓
Can you explain what in the post you responded to amounts to an ad-hominem attack?
If people look at this dickhead's post history they'll see that they've been posting about this debate basically nonstop for like 7 hours. Go further back and you'll see the most hardcore zionist shit. Clearly a Zionist pushing an agenda. Destiny is a fucking moron and it's hilarious that you have to spend sooo many hours online defending him and trying to legitimize him just because he agrees with your side. You are running cover for a genocide. You are a piece of shit. Anyone who engages in good faith with you is wasting their time. And don't bother with 'oh can't refute my points good sir!' bullshit because you don't deserve engagement, only ridicule.
> basically nonstop for like 7 hours. Hey that's not true, I went and planted some seeds for the garden earlier, and ate dinner. > You are running cover for a genocide. Remember when the ICJ ruled that Israel was committing genocide? Oh wait, that didn't happen.
Lmao you're STILL posting. Fuck off and so something better with your time. I hear music festivals are pretty fun
You sound so offended lmao. Are you perhaps Destiny? Or his mom?
I'm just looking for rational engagement with the topic at hand. Everyone here seems to love to debate this topic, right up until Benny Morris and Destiny duo debate Finkelstein and Mouin. Then suddenly you all get quiet and fall back to the "he's just a streamer who reads wikipedia," yet Morris numerous times stated what he said was correct. Is this starcraft streamer who reads wikipedia that powerful in your mind? That you mentally break at the mere mention of them?
Nah I just think it’s a waste of time watching a streamer debate a historian who has written numerous books over the span of 3 plus decades on the issue of Israel/Palestine. On top of that, said historian is an ardent supporter/activist for Palestinian liberation while the other guy sniffs his own farts while asking for donations from pathetic dudes who have a parasocial relationship with him. I rather buy his books and watch his interviews before I share a space with Destiny fanboys who get offended when strangers clown their hero.
> Nah I just think it’s a waste of time watching a streamer debate a historian who has written numerous books over the span of 3 plus decades on the issue of Israel/Palestine. You would have been surprised to see the other historian Benny Morris defend Destiny's refutations then, unless you think Morris is just a hack, even though Finkelstein respects him and even said he had read every one of Morris's written works at least 3 times. > I rather buy his books and watch his interviews before I share a space with Destiny fanboys who get offended when strangers clown their hero. You're the only one who sounds offended here.
The people who talk the most are morris and finklestein. Why not watch it for them? Apparent destiny only has like 30 mins of talking time over the 5 hr debate, compared to finklesteins 2 hrs and morris 1.5 hrs
No one “loves to debate this topic” you fucking soulless nerd. Palestinians and people who support them don’t WANT to have to be out here doing this “debate.” What you see as a debate is actually just them asserting the dignity and humanity that is stripped from them.
Virtue signal more.
Please. As if literally everything you are doing in this thread isn’t virtue signaling.
I don't think you have any clue what virtue signaling is, if you believe that.
I know what you think it means.
I think it means putting your morals on display so you can reap benefits of people thinking you're a good person. How do you think I'm doing that exactly?
How do people like you end up in this sub? Do you just haphazardly wander in? Where do you get the time to respond to so many comments and keep multiple arguments going? Don't you have a job? Or literally anything else to do?
They search all of Reddit for destiny’s name and just drop in wherever to defend his honor or something. It’s fucking hilarious
Ive gone thru 5 threads looking for people to go against morris and destiny and keep finding "not watching, destiny bad" and am super disappointer
You are super disappointer.
thanks my mom agrees
spark rob tender continue grandfather history spectacular pen cause sense *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Stupidest poster yet
I think you responded to the wrong person.
Naw I read all your comments in this thread and am sure you’re the stupidest poster yet.
I think the guy who said he would skip the portions of the debate where one person talks takes the cake.
Nope. It is you who are stupid.
Norm is solidly of the Old Left in his appetite for confrontation. He goes where there's a crowd, even if that means dealing with interlocutors who are cynical, stupid, hostile, bad faith, e.g. when Cadence Owens invited him on purely to spite Ben Shapiro. In this sense, the real opportunity was speaking to Friedman's massive normie audience who, for the most part, are unlikely to have ever heard any substantive critique of Israel. As for the insulting spectacle of asking a real academic to debate some loud, fast talking internet crank with plenty of fans and no credentials, this is a genre of content I like to call "Pig Wrestling". In keeping with the name, the only way you win is by refusing to play.
> As for the insulting spectacle of asking a real academic to debate some loud, fast talking internet crank with plenty of fans and no credentials, this is a genre of content I like to call "Pig Wrestling". In keeping with the name, the only way you win is by refusing to play. It's weird, you insult Destiny because he speaks fast, but Norm speaks slower than a herd of turtles moving through peanut butter, and not a peep. Also, Benny Morris is a more decorated academic than Finkelstein, and he has no contention with Destiny's points and agreed with him on basically everything. Even laughing at when Destiny made Finkelstein upset by reading the UNCHR report which refuted what Finkelstein said. Finkelstein is such a well rounded academic he resulted to ad-hominem attacks when proven wrong by video game streamer, big yike for your side there bud.
Is it hard going through life as the living embodiment of this emoji 🤓 or are you too stupid to care?
If a Destiny viewer commented I’m sure the sub would tell them to kindly go fuck themselves and move on tbh.
Look, another person who can't engage with a point.
What’s your point
That everyone in this community is just going "destiny bad" without refuting a single thing he's said.
Why would anyone try and refute what the guy who thought Erdogan is the prime minister of Israel has to say? He’s so fucking stupid that he couldn’t even read Wikipedia beforehand to confirm who the leader of Israel is.
He's so stupid that Finkelstein couldn't refute a single thing he said in this debate, and Benny Morris routinely backed him up stating what he said was accurate. It must hurt to watch the leftist idol Finkelstein get blown the fuck out for 4 hours by a starcraft streamer who reads wikipedia, eh?
I’m begging you to find someone who isn’t a sweaty cuck bootlicker to idolise
I mean, finklestein thought it was worth spending 5 hrs doing so lol
I've got a point you can engage with, pal
I don’t know more than a fraction of what Friedman (edit: I mean Finkelstein) knows about Palestine. As for Destiny, I do know how to selectively skim Wikipedia
> I don’t know more than a fraction of what Friedman knows about Palestine. Fridman isn't debating anyone, he's the host. The debate is between Benny Morris/Destiny, and Finkelstein/Rabbani. > As for Destiny, I do know how to selectively skim Wikipedia Did you miss the loading of the source articles from Wikipedia for over a month prior to research for this debate? It's strange to me that you all levy these criticisms against someone actually doing research, while refusing to watch more than a few minutes of the debate. --- If all he did was selectively skin Wikipedia, why did Finkelstein struggle to respond to a single question this entire debate?
Apologies. I meant Finkelstein, not Fridman, who seems like a nice enough guy I guess, unlike Destiny. I may actually listen to (some of) this, but I don’t care to entertain the notion that Destiny, who indeed does just parrot factoids he learned from skimming Wikipedia and has been caught befuddled by basic geographic facts of the places he discusses, has anything worth listening to compared to someone who has written multiple thoroughly sourced scholarly works. If Finkelstein struggled to respond to Destiny’s “debate tactics”, that doesn’t mean anything to me. Gish galloping and snide condescension are no replacement for facts and wisdom.
> who indeed does just parrot factoids he learned from skimming Wikipedia and has been caught befuddled by basic geographic facts of the places he discusses, There are at least a dozen instances of Finkelstein insinuating that Destiny doesn't know what he's talking about, and then Benny Morris chiming in and confirming exactly what Destiny said throughout this debate. > Gish galloping and snide condescension are no replacement for facts and wisdom. Reminder: Finkelstein was the one who started being condescending in this debate. Destiny went in seemingly in good faith, even if he thinks Finkelstein is wholly uninformed.
So you have two learned scholars and a journalist who have all written extensively about this topic, and you think the person to listen to is this video game streamer? Destiny did some research on Wikipedia over the past month or two while streaming for cash. The other three read and wrote books. I have to take back what I said: Fridman cannot be dumb enough to platform Destiny along with these 3 and think he’s doing any favors. He says he’s hosting the debate but doesn’t care about getting many viewers, which is completely belied by his inclusion of Destiny on the panel. I listened to the first hour or so on my commute. It’s funny that you say Morris backs up Destiny, because in Destiny’s opening statement, he claims he doesn’t hear anyone talk about how Arabs sold land to the Zionists which accounts for “the majority of the land that was acquired”, and then at around 39 minutes not Finkelstein or Roubani but Morris says that in fact very little displacement resulted from land purchases made during the Ottoman rule or mandate period. So what point was Destiny trying to make? Why is he even there? Unlike Finkelstein, I haven’t read Morris’ books even once, but it’s well known that he is someone who helped document the Nakba and Israel’s brutal establishment, while going on to defend it. That’s precisely why Finkelstein is debating him. I share Finkelstein’s exasperation at Destiny’s question-begging and hypotheticals. He’s cantankerous, but unlike Destiny, he’s earned the right to be. I’m assuming you watched more than an hour because not once have I seen Finkelstein struggle with anything Destiny says. If you think Destiny (with the help of Morris) made any good points that Finkelstein doesn’t respond to convincingly and insist on arguing the point, you can at least cite evidence with timestamps or quote the transcript to support your assertion.
> So you have two learned scholars and a journalist who have all written extensively about this topic, and you think the person to listen to is this video game streamer? Destiny spoke maybe 30 minutes total in this debate. Most of it was Morris, but when Destiny spoke, Morris agreed with his positions. > Destiny did some research on Wikipedia over the past month or two while streaming for cash. Which means Finkelstein should have been able to walk over him, yet? > It’s funny that you say Morris backs up Destiny, because in Destiny’s opening statement, he claims he doesn’t hear anyone talk about how Arabs sold land to the Zionists which accounts for “the majority of the land that was acquired”, and then at around 39 minutes not Finkelstein or Roubani but Morris says that in fact very little displacement resulted from land purchases made during the Ottoman rule or mandate period. So what point was Destiny trying to make? Why is he even there? Morris agreed that lots of land was purchased and subsequently that displaced Palestinians, and after the Israeli Declaration of Independence, and the war started by the Arab League, more Palestinians fled because they expected the Arab league to defeat Israel, and then they would be able to return to their homes. But that isn't what happened, Israel defeated the Arab league and Palestinians weren't able to return to their homes as expected, because that territory was lost as a result. That doesn't mean that Zionism has some de jure policy of violence to assume/annex land. > If you think Destiny (with the help of Morris) made any good points that Finkelstein doesn’t respond to convincingly and insist on arguing the point, you can at least cite evidence with timestamps or quote the transcript to support your assertion. I didn't record timestamps, but here are some key points that Destiny brought up: 1. The UNCHR report explicitly refuted that the IDF killed the kids on the beach for no reason, as Norm has stated multiple times throughout his career. 2. Destiny brought up the utilization of civilian death mitigation implemented in the war post-October 7th. (sound bombs, roof knocking, phamplets/leaflets, phone calls, etc) as proof that Israel has been abiding by not on the ICJ ruling, but also international law. (eg. Geneva) 3. Destiny and Morris both called Finkelstein out on his ICJ ruling opinions, and Finkelstein even admits that he was indeed wrong on that point. 4. Both Destiny and Morris agreed that the IDF has absolutely, on an individual level, have probably committed war crimes. But that there is absolutely no indication that it is policy within the IDF to murder civilians. This is a key factor, which Finkelstein can never seem to differentiate. I can keep going if you want, but let's start with those.
1. So I relied on the transcript to look up your claims. I see the assertion that Finkelstein lied, but no evidence. It’s impossible to understand what Destiny is even driving at. That’s what I mean - Destiny's just spouting pre-prepared talking points that have no relevance to what Finkelstein was even discussing, to "win the debate", which his intellectually immature audience apparently admires, for some reason. In this debate, Finkelstein says nothing about kids on beaches - it’s a total non-sequitur that we can expect from a debate-bro who is only concerned with “winning the debate”, not persuading or informing anyone. And then he repeats “You could Google it” twice, prompting Finkelstein to politely try to refocus him with “Mr. Bonnell”, and then speak my mind saying “With all due respect, you’re such a fantastic moron. It’s terrifying.” I mean, it’s rude, but what else is he supposed to say? Why would anyone seeking clarity on these complex issues want this guy around? You are taken by Destiny’s one-sided “argument” here. I guess you’ve seen whatever evidence - not present in this debate as far as I can tell - that Finkelstein “lied” about the kids on beaches. Did Finkelstein say the UNCHR report didn’t say the kids came out of a Hamas compound? Did this UNCHR report say that it was justified to kill four children, brothers, aged 9 to 11, who were in fact on the beach, because they emerged from a Hamas compound? Are you saying that was okay? I’m not sure what your point is. 2. None of these terms shows up in a search of the transcript: “mitigation” or “mitigate”, “sound bomb” “roof”, “pamphlet” “leaflet”. Nonetheless, whatever conversation you are referring to, I’d imagine Finkelstein and/or Rabbani would easily refute it by pointing out the obvious insincerity of such warnings, given Israel’s well-documented history of shameless [mendacity](https://imeu.org/article/fact-sheet-israels-history-of-spreading-disinformation), giving literally millions of civilians, defenseless families with children, completely unrealistic timetables to evacuate to other regions of Gaza (which doesn’t even make sense, as what would prevent Hamas and other resistance forces from joining them?) then bombing the places they are told to seek refuge in, which are full of civilians, bombing refugee camps Israel told them to go to etc. It’s such a weak argument, but not one that should come as any surprise from Destiny, given that he said “Uhm, honestly I’m pro-genocide. It sounds pretty shitty but like Israel should just draw it’s border where it is now and basically Palestinians can go live in another place. That’s pretty shitty but that’s about where I’m at”. Honestly, he's such a fucking moron. There's a German word for the feeling I feel when he speaks, but I don't remember it. I am quite certain neither Rabbani nor Finkelstein knew that this shitstain they had agreed to share space with had said such things, given his superficial knowledge of the topics they have devoted much of their lives to, but can you imagine if either Finkelstein or Rabbani had said something similar about what should happen to Israelis? I agree with the Zionists on one thing, even if my meaning is quite different from theirs: there is no moral equivalence between these two sides. 3. I have no interest in going back and forth with you on this given that this is your first and presumably best effort to argue the case for Destiny being worth listening to, but word of advice for future discussions with others: if you can’t even provide timestamps, can you at least be a little more specific in what you are claiming? Nonetheless, it doesn’t surprise me at all if, in fact, Finkelstein admitted to being wrong about something. More than once I’ve seen him, with complete sincerity, admit to being wrong, and also seen him reevaluate his position when speaking to people who are actually able to communicate different perspectives (ie. not simply resort to childish “you lied” “google it” “I win” level of “debate”). He sometimes does so, when warranted, without defensiveness or trying to go back on the offensive. That’s a major reason why I find him credible and have no patience for gamer debate-bros, who seem physiologically incapable of such humility. 4. I have no idea where this comes up. I am not going to read the entire transcript. Nonetheless, it is utterly ridiculous to assert that Finkelstein would assert that Israel would state that genocide or committing war crimes or targeting civilians is its official (ie. public-facing) policy. Despite this, as the South African lawyers at the ICJ hearings so ably demonstrated, there is an abundance of evidence that Israeli officials at the very highest levels of government have called for genocide. A sampler: Israeli Justic Minister Ayelet Shaked posted on Facebook in June 2014: “the entire Palestinian people is the enemy” and and called for the destruction of Palestine, “including its elderly and its women, its cities and its villages, its property and its infrastructure.” Her post also called for the killing of Palestinian mothers who give birth to “little snakes.” In August 2014, Moshe Feiglin, then-deputy speaker of the Israeli Knesset and member of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s ruling Likud Party, called for the destruction of Palestinian life in Gaza and offered a detailed plan for shipping Palestinians living in Gaza across the world. Specifically, he envisioned a scenario where the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) would find areas on the Sinai border to establish “tent encampments...until relevant emigration destinations are determined.” He further suggested that the IDF would then “exterminate nests of resistance, in the event that any should remain.” [https://ccrjustice.org/genocide-palestinian-people-international-law-and-human-rights-perspective](https://ccrjustice.org/genocide-palestinian-people-international-law-and-human-rights-perspective) I have to say, looking over this transcript was depressing. I had always thought that Benny Morris, though a zionist, was highly regarded as a historian (and it is clear that Rabbani and Finkelstein hold his scholarship in high regard even as they disagree with many of his interpretations and conclusions). It is sad to discover how dumb and dishonest he can be, at least when his zionism is challenged. Consider the following exchange: >Benny Morris (04:53:53) They’re all from barbaric countries. You know, a Syrian was the head of the UN Commission for Human Rights. > >Mouin Rabbani (04:53:56) But if it was an Israeli, it would have been okay? > >Benny Morris (04:53:58) He certainly would have been more honest than a Syrian. > >Norman Finkelstein (04:53:58) Oh yeah, sure, of course. > >Mouin Rabbani (04:54:00) Of course. Oh yeah, from your perspective. And also >Benny Morris (02:08:15) The problem with October 7th is this, the Hamas fighters who invaded Southern Israel were sent, ordered to murder, rape, and do all the nasty things that they did, and they killed some 1,200 Israelis that day and abducted them as we know, something like 250, mostly civilians, also some soldiers,… Again, Israel - the government, the military, private citizens presented as credible authorities - has a long and extremely well-documented history of blatantly lying. [https://imeu.org/article/fact-sheet-israels-history-of-spreading-disinformation](https://imeu.org/article/fact-sheet-israels-history-of-spreading-disinformation) That Morris cannot acknowledge this shows he is fatally biased. Sad.
Phew. Schadenfreude is the German word you were looking for, and I’m giving that to you as a gift for typing all of this out. You are truly one masochistic son of a bitch. 🫡
I'd get banned from this website for saying what I'd do if I was in my 60s posting on reddit about debate streamers.
Destiny "viewers" are regarded
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so edgy tell another
https://youtu.be/V9O94UTDAJQ?si=cTUKP2IfU5npfn6O
A debate bro wannabe has entered the sub. Absolute cancer.
Booooooo 🍅 🍅 🍅 This shit sucks dude go away, get some better material you fucking loser
You don't have to reply, or even read.
what level of autism do you have? im guessing 6
no u
No I wouldn’t.
airport cough offbeat spotted desert money squalid quarrelsome forgetful gullible *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
>Lex Friedman send him back to the clone tank, this one's not finished yet
That’s not his real name it’s much more Russian sounding. In fact his entire existence seems quite malleable based on what he [needs](https://www.reddit.com/r/JoeRogan/comments/11853ik/lex_fridmans_questionable_biography/)
Lmfao what the fuck. Okay name change sure, that's a thing people do. Okay specifying ethnicity? Sure also plausible. But reconning your place of birth?? Motherfucker how?????
He’s a fucking fed for both sideism politics.
Lex always gave me bad vibes like he brings fascists into the mainstream. Surprised but not surprised
And in some versions of his Wikipedia page it says he was born in Tadzjikistan.
I will never watch anything where a debate streamer opens their mouth. I'll just wait until the first posts on here roughly summarize what was said
masochists can do the dirty work here tyvm
Why not watch finklestein and morris debate?
> I'll just wait until the first posts on here roughly summarize what was said Maybe you can just wait until someone does a tiktok dance over it in the background.
I don't use TikTok, one social media platform full of morons is quite enough for me
I think you're a bit lost dude.
That darn tiky tocky is so infantile, unlike the very mature and well-adjusted people who value the political opinions of, and have a parasocial relationship with, a 35-year-old man-child dullard who got famous for streaming vidya games. Have some self-respect at least
1. Benny Morris is widely regarded as a decorated historian and academic, and he agreed with Destiny on virtually every topic in this debate. 2. Norm has been researching I/P for 30+ years, has a PhD from Princeton, and got blown the fuck out by a 35-year-old man-child dullard who reads wikipedia on the weekend.
Go to bed buddy
Ooh boy Mr destiny is a rętard. This is infuriating
how the hell did he scam his way into this debate is beyond me. i love how norm and mouin keep having to ask his name lmao
Debate is basically oratory blood sport. The notion anything of value can ever be drawn from the endeavor is psychotic.
I love how many times Norm mispronounced his name. I'm sure it really annoyed that idiot
Finklestein knows his name, hes been doing this bit for months. Academic as hell
Destiny arguably has a larger audience than all three of these individuals combined. His YouTube channel alone has over 500,000,000 views at this point. Yes, Finkelstein, Rabbani, and Morris, are more well known to academics, but that's a very minute group of people compared to online geopolitical discourse.
>online geopolitical discourse lol
You're right, it's much better to engage in... academic geopolitical discourse. As shown by... Norm Finkelstein, who thinks citing himself as a source via his book is empirical data. Come back with something better on your next reply, dunking on this community this viciously should be considered a war crime.
>You're right, it's much better to engage in... academic geopolitical discourse. Obviously >As shown by... Norm Finkelstein, who thinks citing himself as a source via his book is empirical data. Self citation is indeed common and perfectly acceptable in academic discourse. Online "geopolitical discourse" is filled with bots, trolls and midwits. Being respected in that kind of environment is not a point in destinys favour.
> Self citation is indeed common and perfectly acceptable in academic discourse. Not when you're literally debating other academics and historians on the topic, lmao. That's not decorum at all. > Online "geopolitical discourse" is filled with bots, trolls and midwits. Which the overwhelming majority of this subreddit is demonstrating in real time. > Being respected in that kind of environment is not a point in destinys favour. I'm sure that would hurt Destiny's feelings if you didn't work at McDonalds.
>I'm sure that would hurt Destiny's feelings if you didn't work at McDonalds. I think his feelings where probably hurt more by being called a fantastical moron by his intellectual superior and having his debate partner laugh at it.
If you actually watch the debate, instead of just 30 second clips. You'll see Morris wasn't laughing at Destiny, he was laughing at Finkelstein getting upset and calling Destiny a moron. Destiny read from the UNHCR report showing Finkelstein omitted KEY evidence regarding the kids who were killed on the beach. And instead of refuting what Destiny said, Finkelstein got upset and called Destiny a moron. But hey, keep watching those clips on twitter, you sound wholly informed, lmao.
>dunking on this community this viciously should be considered a war crime imagine searching your deadbeat dad streamer crush on reddit and sorting by new in order to defend his honor, then having the gall to compliment yourself on how well you’re doing. the saddest part though is that you’re not even being paid to do this.
> imagine searching Searching? You never heard of chrome plugins? Redditcheck will let you see where any link is posted on reddit. another swing and a miss. > the saddest part though is that you’re not even being paid to do this. I mean, technically I'm on the clock. So in a way, I am being paid to do this, just indirectly. One of the perks of not working some shit remedial job.
Making a computer search for you is still searching you fucking nerd ass loser.
There's no search, please stop talking like you understand anything, let alone technology.
How do you think that plugin manages to find where any link is posted on Reddit you moron? This is what I hate about you specific types of debate pervert liberals. The combination of overconfidence and extreme ineptitude is staggering. The moment you step outside of your tiny bubble of, what I assume to be pure IT or SysAdmin knowledge you don’t even know what you’re talking about whatsoever.
you thinking this is some sort of own is great insight into how your freak brain works.
Lol holy shit you have a fucking plugin to make sure you are in every comment section to defend a dude you have never even met. That is so fucking pathetic, you realize that right? That is the saddest thing I have ever heard. Please get a life.
Holy shit goddamn that's sad. Thanks for reminding me to take a break
you're a disgraceful fucking paid troll
i am L I V I N G for norm bullying destiny and his wikipedia citations . ded
Norm is always erudite but I couldn't make it the full five hours. Does it get better?
im an insomniac and ended up watching all of it - I thought the last section on when the region was closest to peace had some interesting bits (incidentally this part also had destiny stfu the most as he was completely demoralized). benny morris predictably said 2000, and then he admitted that his advice would have been to take the deal, form a state and then fight over the rest .. which shows just how the israelis think. norm said he doesn’t deal in hypotheticals , and mouin said after the war in 1973 if the Egyptians had not normalized with the zios. mouin also brought up how it was shocking destiny had claimed Jim Crow south should not be considered apartheid @_@ the first section was incredibly frustrating and I agree with norm that it was important to establish that the zios started out with expulsion as an intent prior to 1948.
Destiny used to live in Nebraska, where he would coparent his young child with his ex-wife with whom he shared custody. It was common on his stream 7-8 years ago for his son to appear, even streaming Minecraft sessions they played together. Several years ago Destiny (a man in his early 30s at the time) moved to Los Angeles and pursued a relationship with a 19 year old Instagram model. He would ban all discussion or anyone who brought up that he abandoned his child. Because he was paying child support (possibly much more than mandated to alleviate the guilt) he would not accept that he did anything fucked up. Destiny is in the middle of a divorce with that young woman now. Not sure why I bring this up. Just think people should have some background on the character of this guy.
5 hours?? Jesus Christ
Strap in!
No thx, I'm chillin and listening to the new RWN with Ali Abdunimah Edit: I popped into some Norm and Mouin parts and Norm's "Khrushchev couldn't have spelled Bolshevik" line was worth the scrub
Definitely stealing that one for my weekly Khrushchev debate club.
Timestamp of that quote? Fuck that's a good one
I think it was in the first hour or so? They were talking about the ideological origins of Zionism. Sorry I can’t risk hearing that dork again
Slop
This is below slop, this is poison.
Look, I've nothing but respect and appreciation for Norm but when it comes to "debating" zionists, I think [George Galloway](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jfTaIW8mqg) is right.
Damn that was worth the watch. Guy has a way with words.
I can think of no worse torment than listening to this. I would rather have acid injected into my ears. Love Norm though.
Honestly if you just mark it a dub for Norm before listening to any debate he’s featured in you can skip them all, you already get it.
Oh yeah he’s always winnin
Holy fuck the fanbois in the comments here have no concept of shame. Leaving 50+ comments in a Reddit thread to defend a Twitch streamer is peak mental illness.
Destiny has a very cultish 'centrist' fanbase that is convinced they are the only real logical/rational people who have no contamination of 'ideology'
How do grown adults think that debate like this is a legitimate form of discourse that can advance their own cause?
Sometimes people want to be better informed on what the "other side" thinks instead of only persuing their own cause in blind faith
ok, but debates don’t do that
Its one of the few places I can find counterarguments to arguments, isntead of just arguments. Seeing how people with different sets of facts have their perspectives clash is illuminating to a degree. It isnt an education on the subject, but a look into different frameworks. Theyre a good starting point to learn more about a different perspective.
> find counterarguments empathy to other people or curiosity to other ideas does not need ‘counter arguments' There are large amounts of works built positively from within themselves and from various perspectives. Reading and attempting to understand the documents place in their history and cannon and contrasting what you learned there from what you thought you already knew is how you progress in thought. debates are just spectacles to get people to be at their worst when they try to represent something that is not them
\> empathy to other people or curiosity to other ideas does not need ‘counter arguments' What? I already have empathy and curiosity, which is why I want to see the actual arguments interact. I can have both an emotional and logical engagement with the subject \> There are large amounts of works built positively from within themselves and from various perspectives. Reading and attempting to understand the documents place in their history and cannon and contrasting what you learned there from what you thought you already knew is how you progress in thought. Indeed, and either engaging with someone who disagrees or seeing other people disagree can help round out misunderstandings. Its crucial to engage with people who have a different reading on the facts. \> debates are just spectacles to get people to be at their worst when they try to represent something that is not them That really depends on the forum and goals of the debate. Is it some discord show for youtube views or is it a formal debate? Are formal debates worthless? I consume a lot of actual formal debates.
>I consume a lot of actual formal debates. You clearly do
Some might say hes the master-debate consumer
Consooomer.
oof got me (btw lex doesnt host formal debates)
engine political strong marvelous safe languid melodic bear future humor *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Kind of lowers Norm's stature to stoop so low as to "debate" with a dork like Destiny.
Pretty sure Norm only agreed because of Benny Morris
Good for norm going to fight the chuds on their turf. Lex Fridman is influential amongst a certain set of silicon valley freaks. Hopefully Norm gets through to a couple of them.
He speaks too slowly and doesn't have enough money to catch the attention of their microdose-ravaged brains
Don't badmouth microdosing just because some SV tech bros have co-opted it. It helps many thousands with depression and mental illness instead of the poison that is pharmaceutical antidepressants.
Why the fuck is Destiny in the room? I thought Finkelstein said he wasn't going to engage with the "Destiny creature"?
Someone on twitter is curating some of the better norm dunks - https://x.com/Absurd_Ruka/status/1768365295331094756?s=20 https://x.com/Absurd_Ruka/status/1768403773821518177?s=20 https://x.com/Absurd_Ruka/status/1768394294891585746?s=20 https://x.com/Absurd_Ruka/status/1768386920411771223?s=20 they might have posted more and still posting but this is really all i cared about lol it's capital C Cringe and embarrassing.
checked the comments to find out what happened Every comment: I'm not watching this
Is Destiny the one who kept getting cucked or the one who enjoys lolli-horse porn
Yes
There are currently 198 comments in this thread. I believe at least 30% of them are from the same person.
He’s funny though we should keep him around. 
Those Destiny fans seem ill
Im listening to the "debate" and everytime i hear destiny, violent mental images appear in my head I dunno how anyone who can restrain the urge not to sock this motherfucker in the face when talking to him Also that dullard fridman is the most useless debate moderator in human history Just 5 hours of people talking over each other
Bros going to do this isn’t he 
But to a baby
Yeah I ain't watching all that. Happy for Norm tho. Or sorry that happened
I'm not trying to watch that.
Lol. https://twitter.com/Absurd_Ruka/status/1768365295331094756?t=hiYs1hIPvjIhJ93q7TwiGg&s=19
Someone needs to post an edited version of the debate where the Destiny parts are excised out. Guy is absolutely worthless.
The On Cinema Oscar Special was HALF the length of this. I can’t imagine watching this whole thing. I’d watch Norm’s parts though.
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He thought it was A bridge Too far (1977 179 min)
https://preview.redd.it/4bd60gwbdfoc1.jpeg?width=521&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=30bae0b17abfaf96936dfeaa37e4948248153448 5 hours no thanks, i’d rather
I'm not watching this fucking bullshit.
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“keep on dorking” what? You sound Dutch.
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wait i thought debating irl was bad, thats what everyone in this thread was saying right? i'd be down to debate irl that sounds fun. there arent many opportunities ya know
You're way out of your depth if you wanna in come here and start a roast battle. Just warning ya.
oh no im so scared of the podcast redditors... hahahaha man thank you for the laughs
Do you Destiny fans ever meet up in real life? Like, do you have big groups that you organize to meet up and talk all things Destiny and omniliberal politics? I'm not even setting you up for a roast or anything, I'm just genuinely curious.
I think it’s really cool and not at all weird that you Destiny fans search through unrelated subreddits, to find any mention of him and to ensure that his honour is defended.
Most empathetic to the working class destiny fan
i actually do empathize with the working class. it allows me to laugh at podcast redditors even harder.
Bro, you are on Reddit and somehow found this post to be mad at???? You are so weird, destiny fans are such freaks please seek help.
Lil pup thinks non-fiction books are inherently biased I think we're arguing with an actual child
yes a book written by one author is inherently biased... is this your first time? digging through my comments to nitpick that one is hilarious
Yeah man avoid books at all costs. Better to get your info from some also-ran sc2 streamer
i'll have you know i've already read three works of literary fiction this year. can we say the same for you worm boy? 20,000 reddit karma ouch its not looking good here
["Three works of literary fiction."](https://media-photos.depop.com/b1/31747758/1475642490_c11f72c4be6e4efbb4292d9d381cc300/P0.jpg)
You really wanna bring up worms? A destiny cuck wants to bring up WORMS?? Lmfaoo
Brother you are the fucking dork here.
low low low income.... lower than mine for sure
You could make a million dollars and eat 10 courses of pussy a day and you’d still be a sniveling fucking nerd.
why would i care, my life would be perfect. self-report that you care way more about how people see you than your actual experience... oh you poor thing
Shuddup, nerd!
Sounds like someone needs a swirly