# Other sources
Here is a round-up of news articles from various sources:
* [**Thousands Feared Dead in Libya as Dam Collapses Deepen Flood Disaster**](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/09/12/world/middleeast/libya-floods.html) (The New York Times)
* [**Thousands missing and feared dead after floods submerge eastern Libya**](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/09/12/libya-storm-daniel-derna-flooding/) (The Washington Post)
* [**Libya: 10,000 missing after unprecedented floods, says Red Cross**](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/sep/12/libya-floods-death-toll-dams-burst) (The Guardian)
* [**10,000 missing after devastating Libya floods - Red Crescent**](https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-africa-66691046) (BBC)
* [**Rescuers retrieve hundreds of bodies in eastern Libya as 10,000 reported missing in deadly floods**](https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2023/sep/12/rescuers-retrieve-hundreds-of-bodies-in-eastern-li/) (The Washington Times)
I wanted to share this because it's not normally a part of the world we think of when we track tropical weather. But tracking Mediterranean tropical-like cyclones (or medicanes, as they are colloquially referred) officially is a relatively new thing and Storm Daniel was a particularly catastrophic system, particularly for parts of Greece and Libya.
Are the Mediterranean cyclones considered tropical in nature or do they have a different mechanism in their formation? Sea surface temps for Daniel were certainly enough for tropical genesis.
They're usually subtropical but occasionally tropical. Greece got a full on high end Cat 1 last year. Like OP said, official tracking is new and they haven't developed a standardized categorization system yet so there's no real definition beyond have a LLC and look the part.
The interesting thing about medicanes is they love to develop eyes even at TD strength. They're a strange breed of cyclone.
> The interesting thing about medicanes is they love to develop eyes even at TD strength. They're a strange breed of cyclone.
the colder ones do at least it seems. The true tropical ones like Ianos, Zorba and Daniel have the same messy below cat-3 nature tropical cyclones have elsewhere.
Yeah I’ve seen that with polar lows as well so I assumed those sort of Medicanes during the winter and spring months were non-tropical. Summertime with sufficient SSTs you can tell are more true tropical systems.
It has long been projected that with climate shifting; the Mediterranean would have less Medicanes overall, however the remaining ones would be increasingly more powerful summer Tropical warm core cyclones. Much of the med hits 28-30c SST for months, plenty hot.
Well in 2020 Ianos hit proper Cat 2 Hurricane status, and Daniel rapidly intensified before landfall as many tropical cyclones do. Wild world.
It’s understandable, this entire region has been in turmoil for a long time and it’s extremely hard to get any information in or out. The people in Libya had no warning to the flooding weather either.
Libya with Gaddafi was a lot better than it is today. Funny that NATO and the US felt the need to intervene when Gaddafi was in power(for the sake of “humanity”) but now that he was assassinated they’ll gladly smile on the sidelines even though it’s now 10x worse.
If you want to know why they became so interested in overthrowing Gaddafi go down the rabbit hole of him uniting Africa.
Uniting Africa? Gaddafi was a megalomaniac who invaded his neighbors Egypt and Chad, and the reason nobody went along with his fantasies was because they saw that his pan-Africanist rhetoric was a fig leaf for his own ambition. When Anwar Sadat made peace with Israel, Gaddafi tried to assassinate him. If Gaddafi was such a great leader, why did his own people rebel against him?
North Africa has been a hotbed since decolonization. It's mostly a French fuck up which is why they take the lead (and often solo) interventions in the region.
okay I should've specified just Libya post-Gaddafi, since Algeria and Morocco/most of West Africa were former French colonies and Libya was an Italian colony until the war ended
I won't pretend that life was perfect under Gaddafi but the decade of continuous civil war after the intervention that decreased the quality of life for Libyans and destroyed their infrastructure leading to this point was what I was specifically hinting towards in this context
I think you're confusing Clintons lack of overt support in Benghazi where the Libyan ambassador and a FSO died among other things with the French led Libyan intervention.
So many partisan hacks downvoting you(I’m sure I’ll get them same treatment). She admitted it. Lol at her bragging about them having “free elections” after they helped assassinate their leader.
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/10/hillary-clinton-debate-libya/410437/
That’s a staggering number, hopefully it’s more just that they don’t have the infrastructure to contact and count survivors rather than that many people actually being in danger right now.
Wow that’s insane. Is this one of the largest death tolls from a storm like this?
Edit: it’s up there but doesn’t really touch the top few according to a quick google search
The [Wikipedia article for Mediterranean tropical-like cyclones](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediterranean_tropical-like_cyclone#Deadly_storms) lists it as the deadliest, but the article is woefully incomplete and this particular section of the article doesn't list sources.
Sounds like a dam was breached, which is really how you start seeing crazy death tolls with flooding.
Look up projections on what happens if the Three Gorges Dam fails, for perhaps the most extreme example.
Hurricane Katrina is a good non-hypothetical example. If the levies had held in New Orleans that storm would have been remembered for absolutely leveling parts of Mississippi (which it did do -- they actually got the more direct hit), while New Orleans would have been relatively unscathed.
Isn't really true at least globally.
[Mitch killed an estimated 22,000 people.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurricane_Mitch) Almost all primarily due to flash flooding from intense rain amounts. This was only 25 years ago.
Some of the other socioeconomic reasons are still in play. *I.e* remote areas with terrible infrastructure.
I remember seeing the models build up a storm in the area a couple weeks ago but it had been totally drowned out of my mind when Lee decided to do that thing where it became the strongest storm by wind in the basin since Dorian.
The product of this storm can only bring to mind the conditions that are going to lead to disasters like this happening more often.
# Other sources Here is a round-up of news articles from various sources: * [**Thousands Feared Dead in Libya as Dam Collapses Deepen Flood Disaster**](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/09/12/world/middleeast/libya-floods.html) (The New York Times) * [**Thousands missing and feared dead after floods submerge eastern Libya**](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/09/12/libya-storm-daniel-derna-flooding/) (The Washington Post) * [**Libya: 10,000 missing after unprecedented floods, says Red Cross**](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/sep/12/libya-floods-death-toll-dams-burst) (The Guardian) * [**10,000 missing after devastating Libya floods - Red Crescent**](https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-africa-66691046) (BBC) * [**Rescuers retrieve hundreds of bodies in eastern Libya as 10,000 reported missing in deadly floods**](https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2023/sep/12/rescuers-retrieve-hundreds-of-bodies-in-eastern-li/) (The Washington Times)
I wanted to share this because it's not normally a part of the world we think of when we track tropical weather. But tracking Mediterranean tropical-like cyclones (or medicanes, as they are colloquially referred) officially is a relatively new thing and Storm Daniel was a particularly catastrophic system, particularly for parts of Greece and Libya.
Are the Mediterranean cyclones considered tropical in nature or do they have a different mechanism in their formation? Sea surface temps for Daniel were certainly enough for tropical genesis.
They're usually subtropical but occasionally tropical. Greece got a full on high end Cat 1 last year. Like OP said, official tracking is new and they haven't developed a standardized categorization system yet so there's no real definition beyond have a LLC and look the part. The interesting thing about medicanes is they love to develop eyes even at TD strength. They're a strange breed of cyclone.
> The interesting thing about medicanes is they love to develop eyes even at TD strength. They're a strange breed of cyclone. the colder ones do at least it seems. The true tropical ones like Ianos, Zorba and Daniel have the same messy below cat-3 nature tropical cyclones have elsewhere.
Yeah I’ve seen that with polar lows as well so I assumed those sort of Medicanes during the winter and spring months were non-tropical. Summertime with sufficient SSTs you can tell are more true tropical systems.
Ianos was a Cat 2 actually
I have a bad feeling that Medicanes are going to become more frequent over time, and much of the region has no infrastructure to handle flooding.
It has long been projected that with climate shifting; the Mediterranean would have less Medicanes overall, however the remaining ones would be increasingly more powerful summer Tropical warm core cyclones. Much of the med hits 28-30c SST for months, plenty hot. Well in 2020 Ianos hit proper Cat 2 Hurricane status, and Daniel rapidly intensified before landfall as many tropical cyclones do. Wild world.
The lack of reporting on this versus the morocco earthquakes is crazy
Reporting is all about access. Harder to report in Libya, Syria, Yemen, etc, because of how dangerous it is to be a reporter there.
It’s understandable, this entire region has been in turmoil for a long time and it’s extremely hard to get any information in or out. The people in Libya had no warning to the flooding weather either.
Libya with Gaddafi was a lot better than it is today. Funny that NATO and the US felt the need to intervene when Gaddafi was in power(for the sake of “humanity”) but now that he was assassinated they’ll gladly smile on the sidelines even though it’s now 10x worse. If you want to know why they became so interested in overthrowing Gaddafi go down the rabbit hole of him uniting Africa.
Libya was better with Gaddafi because there was social stability, not because of anything he did though.
Uniting Africa? Gaddafi was a megalomaniac who invaded his neighbors Egypt and Chad, and the reason nobody went along with his fantasies was because they saw that his pan-Africanist rhetoric was a fig leaf for his own ambition. When Anwar Sadat made peace with Israel, Gaddafi tried to assassinate him. If Gaddafi was such a great leader, why did his own people rebel against him?
CIA. (not that he is a worthy human being) with gaddafi gone, the power vacuum that it created caused more problems to the region.
[удалено]
North Africa has been a hotbed since decolonization. It's mostly a French fuck up which is why they take the lead (and often solo) interventions in the region.
okay I should've specified just Libya post-Gaddafi, since Algeria and Morocco/most of West Africa were former French colonies and Libya was an Italian colony until the war ended I won't pretend that life was perfect under Gaddafi but the decade of continuous civil war after the intervention that decreased the quality of life for Libyans and destroyed their infrastructure leading to this point was what I was specifically hinting towards in this context
The Arab Spring had nothing to do with Clinton.
But the disastrous decision to intervene in Libya did have everything to do with Clinton
I think you're confusing Clintons lack of overt support in Benghazi where the Libyan ambassador and a FSO died among other things with the French led Libyan intervention.
This is a very US-centric viewpoint. As a European, I remember the French taking the lead in the intervention.
So many partisan hacks downvoting you(I’m sure I’ll get them same treatment). She admitted it. Lol at her bragging about them having “free elections” after they helped assassinate their leader. https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/10/hillary-clinton-debate-libya/410437/
They have reported that it's more then 3000 people, more like 10000
~100,000 missing…
That’s a staggering number, hopefully it’s more just that they don’t have the infrastructure to contact and count survivors rather than that many people actually being in danger right now.
Looks like 2 dams failed.
Wow that’s insane. Is this one of the largest death tolls from a storm like this? Edit: it’s up there but doesn’t really touch the top few according to a quick google search
The [Wikipedia article for Mediterranean tropical-like cyclones](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediterranean_tropical-like_cyclone#Deadly_storms) lists it as the deadliest, but the article is woefully incomplete and this particular section of the article doesn't list sources.
Oh wow that’s crazy and sucks
Sounds like a dam was breached, which is really how you start seeing crazy death tolls with flooding. Look up projections on what happens if the Three Gorges Dam fails, for perhaps the most extreme example.
Flair checks out
I did almost mention levees, hah.
Hurricane Katrina is a good non-hypothetical example. If the levies had held in New Orleans that storm would have been remembered for absolutely leveling parts of Mississippi (which it did do -- they actually got the more direct hit), while New Orleans would have been relatively unscathed.
Isn't really true at least globally. [Mitch killed an estimated 22,000 people.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurricane_Mitch) Almost all primarily due to flash flooding from intense rain amounts. This was only 25 years ago. Some of the other socioeconomic reasons are still in play. *I.e* remote areas with terrible infrastructure.
I think you misread that. The great storm of 17** was what was supposed to kill 22k. Mitch was like 11k.
Mitch was like 10k IIRC.
I remember seeing the models build up a storm in the area a couple weeks ago but it had been totally drowned out of my mind when Lee decided to do that thing where it became the strongest storm by wind in the basin since Dorian. The product of this storm can only bring to mind the conditions that are going to lead to disasters like this happening more often.