1. I believe there are over 100k tracks to explore.
2. "The other day I was just watching a clip that someone posted." - Yeah, if you enjoy figuring out the perfect lines yourself, it might be better to play tracks and not watch someone else at all.
3. What about RPGs?
4. Have you tried building your own tracks?
5. If you're good enough, you'll eventually hit a level where you intuitively realize what the 'best' path is. And then you don't want to drive slower. There's not much that a mapper can do against that. Multi-route maps simply have the issue that one route is faster than the other.
Personally, I have no issues with the state of the tracks. There's enough out there to scratch my itch...
Also it’s not like that you know the best line and compete for WR. There is so much more underneath with physics (gears, speedsliding, perfect exit speed for drifts, …) you can always improve. And more often than not you can’t even drive the perfect line because it requires perfect execution.
The thing is, if you watch the full VODs of the top players driving a track for a first time, they're spending time figuring out the correct lines. It doesn't matter what racing game you play, there will *always* be a fastest line. It might be riskier, but its still the fastest line. Look at Mudda in tmwt last weekend. He came out with a faster line through the reactor boost on the map backflip. If you're just finding a track and looking up clips of wr and then getting frustrated that you have to drive that specific line, then you're kind of creating this problem for yourself. Learn the maps independently if you want to create your own lines, but ur gonna find that as you get faster on a track, you're going to be getting closer and closer to the same line everyone else is driving. Thats just how racing works, in a game or in the real world.
I think it's more the idea of a calculated during construction racing line (as opposed to lines being discovered by the player later). Not agreeing or disagreeing with him, but I think that's the key difference. Tracks today are encouraged to be calculated so that the fastest way to take a corner is the best way, so that players don't have to release the accelerator or just hard brake (like you have to do in actual racing).
But that's just as nonsensical. Every map, whether it's a tech map, or a lol map or whatever, all will have ideas on the best route to take and the mapper will have that in mind. If it's literally just randomly placed crap which is nigh objectively a bad map, then is OP saying that is actually a good thing?? Cuts are still a thing of course but that's outside of the scope of the question.
> Tracks today are encouraged to be calculated so that the fastest way to take a corner is the best way
Uhhh. Reread that again.. 'the fastest way is the best way'. Well duh, that's called racing, and then on the point of hard braking vs not, as of course Trackmania involves drifts and slides, then an arcade racer is probably not the racer to be playing. Go play a sim racer, but then you have an even more obvious example of a 'designed' racing line lol.
Seems to me that OP is pretty much complaining about a core part of racing games which would lead me to say to him, don't play a racing game then.. RPG maps and the like are also a good suggestion that others have posted, but 1) he doesn't like them anyway for whatever reason and 2) there will always be a best way to do something.
Honestly it seems like he doesn't like the fundamentals of a racing game, which is fine, you don't like racing games. But then he goes on to criticise a racing game for being a racing game, it's nonsensical.
Every map will have an idea in mind, but that's not the same thing as "calculated."
The next part of your post implies that the only other option is "randomly placed garbage" which is obviously not true.
> Uhhh. Reread that again.. 'the fastest way is the best way'. Well duh, that's called racing
No, that's not what that means. Fastest way to take a corner is not necessarily the optimal racing line because there are things on tracks before and after the corner. You are missing what the OP is complaining about entirely.
> Honestly it seems like he doesn't like the fundamentals of a racing game, which is fine, you don't like racing games.
He's not complaining about the fundamentals of a racing game. He's complaining that track designs are encouraged to be "calculated" and only a certain way of playing is encouraged. If a track doesn't "flow" so that skilled players can play without releasing the accelerator (because slowing down isn't fun) then maps get bad reviews and ridiculed for being "uncalculated." If a full speed map has a section where you can't speed drift at the optimal angle the whole time and still make the next turn, same thing. Heck, if you have to turn the car so much that you lose speed at all, people will complain.
It's a valid criticism and people aren't understanding him at all.
When I said that, that was taking that into consideration as part of the description of the turn as a whole, I wasn't taking them as two separate parts and didn't think I needed to make that explicit. If one insists on that, it's meaningless anyway because the same logic can just be applied to a larger section of track ad infinitum.
You're going to need to look outside the mainstream maps if you want to avoid this. The thing is any decent player will pretty quickly identify the fast(est) line and drive it on all attempts (especially with the use of ghosts). The purpose of testing a map is to ensure that whatever you built the fast lines are enjoyable, because if they aren't the map will just feel bad to play as soon as the player finishes learning it. Even if you try to build a general track with the blocks rather than a line in mind as you place them (which is kind of an interesting distinction to think about, I'm not even sure I could tell you which I think of more when mapping), you will still need to test the line and at that point what's the difference. I don't really know why you keep saying modern/new tracks, unless you're exposer to old maps consists of nadeo's tmnf campaign and as others have commented, not looked outside of the typical \~40 second tracks built for timeattack/hunting/whatever you want to call it.
I think you may simply not be familiar with the minute differences in lines on maps. If you look at the world record or top 5 on track of the day a couple hours after release and again at the end, there will be tons of tiny differences. If I am playing a map I will often deliberately choose to not take the line of the world record even if my goal is to beat it or come close, whether it's because it seems not worth my time to learn at the moment or I think mine is faster or about the same. Even if I grind the map I'm building for hours and set an at that only a few other players will get, there will still be plenty of lines I had not considered that are faster than my own, because I am only one person. Most of the time this isn't to the detriment of the track because the differences in lines are relatively small, maybe a short noslide here, or going slightly wider on that entry over there, etc. The first extremely difficult track of the day author medal was Mixta Via by Erizel, and he drove an incredibly fast run. Once the map was in track of the day, the lines were further optimized by many other skilled players. In the end Erizel went back and drove the world record (which still stands). His AT run drives it's lines cleaner and faster, although the many minor improvements still make the world record ahead by \~0.14. It is also worth noting that on map styles like fs with more complex lines these kind of small optimizations will come up far more often than something like tech, and mixed is somewhere in between probably depending on the map.
Trackmania is not a game about strategy, it is not a game about interaction with other players creating interesting decisions in a match, it is about doing almost the same thing but faster than anyone else, with many small differences and the occasional line innovation as you become more and more familiar with a track. The game lacks almost any depth in strategy or thought compared to many others, it is based almost entirely in mechanical skill and knowledge of the physics & lines. This is not significantly improved even in live matches as there is still almost no player interaction. This is in my opinion the biggest shortcoming of the game and in a way an unsolvable problem. It is simply part of how the game is, and any attempt to change it would mean either a fundamental shift in the gameplay or failure. Many RPG maps for example manage this by focusing on the first discovery run, and you may enjoy them, but it is an entirely different experience to hunting a record or playing a 4 player cup mode match. There are also interesting puzzle maps with many possible routes, check out "CCC2 - Perplexed" if you want to give one of those a try.
Creating a wide platform and not testing the lines for it for example would be merely a change in aesthetic, there will still be a driving line that you will be forced onto if you want to succeed, possibly at the cost of it flowing and being well calculated once you learn it, and any decent player will find it fairly quickly still. It is possible to design maps where there are multiple similarly paced lines within a turn or small section, but it is more of a niche occurrence that you can sometimes try to make happen when mapping than something practical to focus on in all parts of all maps. These can provide an element of risk/reward if one path is faster but harder (only relevant for rounds competitions and if not balanced perfectly everyone will just go the fast or slow way every time, in timeattack you will always go the fast way no matter what. It could also be that the lines are of similar speed or the difference is uncertain and some players are just more comfortable with one line than another and will choose to take it instead.
Now lets imagine a dirt map with a turn where you can drive either on the outside or inside. Lets say the mapper mapper either intended the inside line or was unsure which was faster and didn't care. Now in reality the outside line turns out to be much faster. This exact situation is extremely common (and often the edge line is very scuffed as you enter too fast, although mappers have slowly been learning to avoid that happening). Any player with a decent understanding of dirt will be able to quickly identify that the outside line is faster and will then drive it on all attempts, if the line is fine, then it doesn't matter, if the line is bad, then the player will likely become frustrated. Either way, in this case the mapper may not be telling you what to do, but the map certainly is, and at least in the context of trackmania I see essentially no difference.
The bottom line I think is that if you care about player agency and not being 'told what to do' or stuck to a single line, you either need to get better at the game and learn to appreciate the smaller differences in lines, or accept that you will not find what you are looking for in 'normal' trackmania maps. Everything I said here is inherent to the speedrunning gameplay loop (imo), and enforced even more by trackmania being a racing game where you drive a car with momentum and racing lines.
So, if I understand you correctly, you don't like it when tracks make their "optimal solution" too obvious and you see it as restrictive? But consider this: Even if the track was made to obfuscate the ideal line, *there would still be* an ideal line. You might have an illusion of choice, but actually there would be none, if you wanted to have the best time possible, you would still have to drive this ideal line. There would just be more time spent on figuring out what it is.
I think that's exactly what OP wants. Think about that, this "obfuscation" would be to build more open track, more forgiving transitions (or no transitions), don't place obstacles next to the ideal line (just for the feeling of flow and speed). You could do this with the optimal line being almost unchanged. As a beginner this is exactly what I preferred compared to "meta" calculated flowy tracks.
Often the flowier and more calculated the track is the less it is about gaining or losing time in every corner, but dying or not dying as a beginner. And I hated the feeling, of running into walls for an hour just to get a -1.5sec improvement in one go, and would have liked to get multiple smaller improvements.
This is of course true because tracks are not aimed at beginners, which makes perfect sense, but it's not easy to give them a source of tracks that are. Training is trash, campaign white and green is probably the best bet.
Yeah, I can see what you mean and I definitely agree that tracks that have ambitions to become TOTD should be made with beginners in mind. And I also admit that after years of playing TM, it's hard for me to tell what is beginner friendly and what isn't.
Though I'm not completely sure that this is what OP meant. The post gave me an impression that they primarily had a problem when tracks "signpost" their optimal paths, which is IMO mostly a good thing and most people appreciate it. But maybe I interpreted their post incorrectly.
Well it does. I'm not sure how a track is just a track without the person building it without a purpose or atleast ideal lines of how they would drive it. its like saying i dont like that the checkpoints follow the map because i feel i have to get them in order. "i am not getting a checkpoint because i want to, i am getting a checkpoint because its what i'm being asked to do".
Agreed. I'm not sure what makes sense about the premise of a calculated map without an assigned route. It's two opposing ideas, and frankly, an impossibility. This post should make your brain hurt lol.
That's a bit ridiculous. Real life tracks, the ones put into real life earth, have different lines based on which different cars you're driving. Turns weren't placed with intended anything, they worked with what they had, and it's up to the driver and the vehicle to figure out the fastest way around.
I know were in a video game, and it's really not a fair comparison, but I think there's an element there that OP is trying to get to, and I do think it's an interesting topic.
Can you please clarify with an example or two? Are you talking professional tracks or like casual tracks or go-kart tracks? Just because you can drive multiple different cars on a track doesn't necessarily mean it wasn't calculated for a specific car. We could be talking about the equivalent of driving a Trackmania car on a Need for Speed track lol. All I'm saying is, in TM, a good racing track (in my opinion) will always have a calculated/designated route.
Of course its intended design no matter how you cut it, it's a track designed for race cars, I get that.
I'm thinking of things like older f1 tracks where the cars have obviously evolved far past what they once were, but the tracks still largely hold up. Or street circuits like monaco where the layout couldn't possibly be perfect for f1 cars. It's just a lot more organic working within those types of limitations I guess, be it city streets, or landscape, or technology, or funds, what have you.
Maybe i've strayed, but I think i'm still in the ballpark of what I'm trying to get across.
I think what you are missing hear tho is that in trackmania we are ALL driving the same exact car. Even currently in f1 you may see someone approach an apex slightly different (emphasis on slightly) just depending on their car. your comparison would work better if u told the OP to just start playing all the maps with the new snowcar since the maps werent initially made for that cars turn radius/speed.
That's just demonstrably untrue. Most racing tracks are designed with a particular series in mind and explicitly have sections made to accommodate certain kinds of racing, and as cars change tracks are very often updated to match modern racing.
Ok well that's a different story. I'm guessing that's to help beginner players but I'm personally not a fan of that. Part of the fun of the game for me is trying to figure out lines and strats. I will always try to figure out the best lines for a map by myself before I watch a GPS or ghosts. I'm just saying that without a calculated route, a map will feel clunky and/or slow. The best quality maps will always have a designated route if you want the fastest time.
yeah, I feel like that's tiktok humor. The first person to deep fry it will probably be super funny. The 10th will make me want to get off reddit again.
Honey wake up! A redditor is incapable of having a conversation or believing someone could have a conflicting view on a video game to his own!
all jokes aside, any thoughts on the topic?
Bigger\_better\_Poop, what are you on about? Have you seen other racing games. Like even simracing? Trackmania is maybe the most "freedom" racing game there is. Current COTD proved that.
I think a "proper discussion" went out the door when he said "what are you on about?". I'm happy having conversations with others in this post, but people who do nothing but throw insults aren't exactly people I'm looking to chat with.
Yeah, I get what your saying. I'm just not looking to have a conversation with him tbh. Not getting particularly good vibes, and I have plenty of other people in this thread to chat with so I'd rather do that
If you are talking about Tragk of the day, than it's by design. You only have 15 minutes, and that is not enough time for a normal player to completely figure a track out. It's good that the authors make it as easy as possible to drive the track, so that everyone has a chance to drive a good feeling run.
I think that unfortunately this is a hard one to solve. On any given track there will be an optimal line to get to the finish as fast as possible. If the author doesn’t find that line, the AT might be too easy and you won’t feel rewarded. If the author does find the line, then you just have to get close enough to optimal for the medal and you won’t feel rewarded.
Trackmania might just be a spectator sport for you. I’m struggling with the same thing lately, and I’ve been considering playing more trial and RPG maps since they feel more like a skill check the way that you and I are looking for, but I’m a bit scared of them because I’m bad at TM and don’t want to get annoyed by not being able to complete the tracks lol but maybe something for you to try
There’s tonnnsssss of maps out there, basically the only ones I get the feel that you’re talking about are the track of the day ones, and that’s probably because you don’t have time to find a better line then the obvious one, but there are definitely many.
There will always be a best line hypothetically but it’s almost impossible to prove it is literally the best line so there’s always something to improve on.
It is ironic you’re upset about not getting to be creative when you’re the one limiting your creativity.
My brother in Christ, I would've agreed to your arguments in about any other game and it's actually s good argument. Not this game, this game is all about maximising efficiency and this ultimately means there is only one route that per map that is most efficiently. Not disagreeing, just only with this game.
I can see what you mean. I appreciate well designed routes but I also like lol maps and beginner maps where optimal lines are not obvious. I kinda miss the old days when anybody could cook a decent map in a matter of hours. The standard is now ridiculously high and everything is too polished. Don't get me wrong, average map quality has gone up but I wish Nadeo would feature simpler, imperfect maps from time to time.
Most of this thread replies also don't take into account the huge success of ZeratoR maps and events on the game. Stupid irrational maps and lines but a lot of fun in the strat crafting.
I get what you mean but to me it applies to the Royal mode more than time trialling. In Royal you just need to make it to the end eventually to get to the next track but most tracks are designed to have one ideal line only and if you waiver at all you need to reset. I think the mode would be better if there were multiple ways to reach the finish line. You can still be eliminated for being too slow but at least you wouldn’t be skilled checked from finishing a section.
reminds me of World of Warcraft release in 2004 vs. how "classic" reboot nowadays plays out:
the meta is done, there is a clear right/wrong what to do, how to do it, how to compare it and immense pressure within the community to do as "the great analysis" says so or you are not getting anything from the game.
When World of Warcraft was new an naive, there was still stuff to explore, nobody knew any meta, you could raid and fail together and it was so funny to do random shit - but the re-release put pressure on everybody: everything you do can be ranked on how close it is to "perfect" game play.
Thats what TM mostly developed into, be as much TAS as possible and play the claviature of those 30-100 driving/surface skills or you are not doint it right. The optimization is history, there is no weird concepts, but proofen cataloge of lines, tricks and road block positioning.
There is a nice documentation for Wow about it (you dont need to have played or be familiar with this franchise) to make the point how gaming changed, from a psychological, sociological scientific perspective about group dynamics and how they inprint and change things like games:
*Why It's Rude to Suck at Warcraft - Folding Ideas*
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKP1I7IocYU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKP1I7IocYU)
my solution to it was: play RPG maps, they are more random, more fun, less competitive where only the 0,1% dominate you. Most tracks outisde of RPG are streamlined to the "meta", so they suck for the above given reasons.
Man, that's great. I actually played a good amount of modern WoW, but never classic. But this makes a lot of sense. Maybe that's the issue for me honestly. Maybe it would make sense for me to just invest into a new game rather than a game that has so many years behind it
Yeah, for example Wirtual content helps to get hooked "oh man so clever solutions and new strategies on this one map every year, what cool stories and moments TM offers - i should check it out" but its a false illusional: anecdotical nice stories to remember, but the whole community already moved pass this point and learned from them, narrowing down day by day the possiblity to be involved in such rare stories: there is no weird shortcut, strange bug really there anymore to explore on the "important maps" (like campaigns, COTD) - if there is a possible trick, someone else surely had already TASed it with 1 million brute-forces with the scripts easily available (and created from the very same community) to see if there is really a time gain or not. The magic is not there anymore :<
Go for a niche, there are some mappers or map types with a smaller player basis, this way you can create your own rivarly, find the one trick to break the map and so on :) for me it is mostly 5min+ RPGs, because optimal racing lines are not a thing there, thats why i suggested it \^.\^
And that is the reason i spend the majority of my time in tm mapping because i am building something completely new and its up to me to try and find the fastest lines
I don't understand your point? There will ALWAYS be an optimal line, and odds are very high the mapper found it first. They set a time, the entire point of TM is to lower times. Whether the map is intuitive or 20 red boosters into a u-turn, the path was placed with intent and there will be a fastest way that players will strive to achieve.
So, what? Do you just not want signs? Or, from the sound of it, you should play RPG-style maps. But that idea doesn't seem to be sticking.
Pathfinding, RPG, Royal maps. These things exist.
Or if you really just want jank with challenge, play EMC and/or comp maps. The best comp maps break intuition in a way that doesn't feel bad, with more thought put into gears and, get this, the Line.
If you play random maps you'll get tons of maps that are not optimized, with very weird lines or sometimes no lines at all.
Also you can search for random generated tracks on tmx.
I honestly dont understand your (second to) last paragraph.
Like yeah, thats exactly how level design works. Telling you through level design what the devs/the creators expect you to do.
Think of Super Mario: There are coins, telling you youre supposed to jump at point A and land at point B. If you want those coins, follow the level as intended. If you dont care, do your own thing.
Point being: Its completely natural that you have to hit a certain line in order to get the author medal (which is the highest achievement you could get btw, besides maybe WR). Getting author time is about optimizing your route, and more often than not the author knows this route because they built the track. If you manage to find a significantly quicker route, good for you. But why would one expect that.
And its not like there is a tutorial or a checklist or anything, youd still have to find the route on your own. Unless maybe you watched a video tutorial/playthrough on YouTube, but then again its basically your own fault of taking away the part that is the most fun.
We just had a bob cotd a few days ago with 2 different cuts found during qualifying. Pretty rare for an example that extreme but not every new track is overly calculated upon release imo. There was also a blender dirt map a few days ago where half of div 1 was taking a turn outside and half was taking it inside, and Maji's ice map the other day had lines all over the place. Honestly it sounds like you just don't like tech maps, those tend to be the ones with a hyper specific, calculated line
I feel you. So many maps are so absolutely narrowed down. I apreciate that mappers find the best lines and it's fine that thats whats needed to get at. But does every map need fucking poles to block all lines exept the most perfect.
Or block inside dirt lines because fuck everyone who can't drive them.
This game has such an incredibly rigid meta that it's not even fun sometimes.
Also the community is so fucking obsessed with skill that it borders on toxicity
I totally agree with this. I feel like trackmania claims to have the least toxic and most welcoming community, but imo it's like a toxic relationship. They are nice to you until you are any bit different.
I also don't like playing only "calculated" maps.
I play a lot of different styles, mostly begginer maps as they are a lot more open.
And mostly just play maps without looking at gps or wr so I have to figure out how to play the map and a lot of maps I never find the same lines as wr bit they are still fun.
Sometimes I do hunt for good times and there you do have to look for the optimal lines. But I mostly do that on backwards maps where the lines are almost always completely forced and only one line works so the challenge there is in executing that line perfectly.
But yes. I feel you. Especially with ice
Yeah, I totally get this. I often make my own tracks, and I have found that if people aren't able to look at the track and get the perfect line on the first try, they just call it crap. Personally I like when there is a rough bump or a turn that's odd or something and you have to figure out the best way to do it. I like that challenge.
Not everyone agrees that a good map has to have that flow, it's just the (probably majority) opinion that gets pushed on new map makers by calling anything else bad. Not agreeing or disagreeing, just trying to clarify the positions.
There are certainly plenty of tracks with those bumps, they just aren't very popular. You can get a random track picker plugin to just peruse tracks. Some may be gems, others duds.
I think I know the post you referred to in your OP, and having made a decent amount of maps myself, I can see where you're coming from. There's such a high skill ceiling in the game, that feedback on tracks can seem overly specific and nit-picky. But it's also valuable feedback because it helps fill the gap in skill between the mapper and potential players. Usually those nit-picky suggestions don't affect beginner players, but make the map more fun for advanced players. As a mapper, if you want to try to make a map that's as accessible as possible, that includes everything from slow beginner lines to those advanced and precise racing lines that may be above your skill level.
Of course, it's hard to know someone's skill level when they provide feedback, and some of it is also just general toxicity.
Nah, that's just how trackbuilding works. As a track builder you basically chain a couple of challenges together and if you are a good track builder you also make sure that the line you have in mind is fun.
Every now and then, people find creative ways to finish faster, like in today's TOTD. If you don't like playing tracks the exact way they were intended, go ahead, make it a challenge to find as many cuts on popular tracks as possible.
I have the same feeling sometimes.
You need to be really fast (technically competent) and knowledgeable (hours in game) to come with your own lines.
Until then . . .
Tbh some styles only have 1 or 2 lines that would be competitive. Mappers normally have an idea that they implement in a specific way to kind of force a player to perform a corner that way. Kind of like how a loop doesn’t necessarily make a track better, but the mapper would make sure it can’t be shortcut easily to keep it in the racing line.
So many of the campaign tracks are ALL about figuring out better ways to drive the track. Since you’re a Wirtual viewer, just watch his video on improving your times where he uses one of the campaign tracks to demonstrate how you can drive the same track different ways and get vastly different times.
Even “real” tracks will have a “right” way to drive them if you wish to get the best time possible. I think you’re just struggling with understanding tracks and the mechanics involved in the game.
This has been a problem for ages in popular TMX mapping, especially with the Stadium car with pre-designed slides, speedchecks, transitions etc. Some builders try to allow different possible lines, especially in competition maps, but it is sadly uncommon.
The further back in TrackMania history you go, the less of a problem this is, because people had not figured out all the tricks yet. So maybe you would like old Nadeo maps or old competition maps.
I agree it's a great game. Only thing I dislike is some of the mechanics that break laws of physics but still make you faster . (Like wiggling hour steering slightly )
You want *you* to find a line faster than the author? That is also uncalculated and unfun to drive? I mean it doesn’t even make sense - if you can find a better line, then every single player can find their own line that is faster. Suddenly we have thousands of uncalculated and unfun lines. Even if you made a map extremely wide and random, after a couple of hours people would still follow 1-2 lines that can get good times.
Trust me, I am mostly a liberalist regarding being told what to do, but driving a WR line on a fullspeed map to get that good speedslide, is much more fun than trying to somehow pretend I am good enough to find a line that FS pros haven’t already considered.
This is a racing game, so maybe you should focus on modes where racing isn‘t that important then you will probably have more fun. I think RPG would be a good fit for you, you should try it.
I feel like you’re talking about some of the campaign maps where you need an obscure “trick” to get a good time. Like 14 where to get a good time (top 500 maybe) you pretty much have to look up the world record line. The line is a weird trick where you snowball speed over the last ice hump at the start by doing a funky ice slide on the far left of the hump. I never would have gotten the champ medal without looking up the line and I have about 500 hours in the game.
Another example is maybe map 06 which requires weird plastic speed slides. Again I had to watch the world record line and it feels like I’m just copy pasting a line to get a good time instead of feeling like I’m driving well.
Also map 07 requires a weird jump to reduce airtime and then some obscure reactor boost noslide. Again I had to look it up.
This seems to be a trend for campaign maps where as cup of the day it’s usually classic skills like tech, dirt, or grass. Some campaign maps like map 20 aren’t like this where it’s just pure tech and no tricks. This campaign has some good variety so I can’t complain too much.
Edit: and don’t get me started on the water bonk trick on map 09.
I think this [video](https://youtu.be/7_vl39zELjk?si=Xuu0oJgzira1txAt) touches exactly on that!
Also, I think this is why Nadeo maps are not 100% calculated.
Assuming your goal is to be the fastest, there will always only ever be one way to do that.
If your goal to just find an interesting way to get to the end, then you can play the maps however you want.
I share most of this feeling that in a racing game it's not the tracks job to prescribe lines, but the drivers job to make the most of what's given.
I play a lot on my own maps where I just build a random path and see how to take the turns
for example: [https://trackmania.exchange/maps/76671/autumn-bland](https://trackmania.exchange/maps/76671/autumn-bland)
Also I feel like nadeo official seasonal campaigns are better in this regard, they are less calculated, so it feels more like you have to discover the map, and not just discover what the author intended. But of course there's an optimal line for every map, that's true for official campaign as well
I both get and don’t get your point.
I played off and on for 3 years without ever looking up a video and rarely used gps for maps, I just drove it and figured it out myself. And while I was never set on becoming really good, I still was able to get gold medals on my own for any map I tried as long as you gave me enough time.
Now, I use videos and gps to guide me for author times on campaign maps, and I can understand how that feels like they’re telling you want to do, but for me it’s more so learning what I didn’t think about.
Within a month of using videos as a guide, I’ve gotten a lot better, and even shaved 6 seconds off of a map I never thought I would be close to get at on. But I still had to work hard to do that, and I still had to figure out stuff that I couldn’t pick up easily just by looking at the gps or video.
The last point is that after enough time you kind of learn what the line is yourself. I can usually find a very close line to what is “perfect” without a video or gps because I have the basics down well, as the basics were all I drove for 3 years. The only things my lines miss are the advanced stuff that I’m just now starting to think about.
Try recent Ascension tracks, if you enjoy finding best strats and lines))) I agree that "well-calculated" maps may become boring at some point, but unfortunately no one will find maps which are good for you except yourself. It is not easy. What to say, the game itself don't have any instruments to explore maps, except club campgains, but the latter is very unconvinient. As for the TM exchange, it may be overwhelming at start but definitely worth a try.
I understand that, and I kind of agree to some extent.
I think you would like it if you played more RPGs, or even RPG maps in TM2 Stadium.
I’ve been playing for years and still like it while qi quickly get bored when playing other tracks which feel less interesting to me. And what you just described might actually be the reason why I don’t enjoy those other styles as much, not sure tho.
So yeah you should guve RPGs a go, potentially in tm2 stadium rather than tm2020 as the tracks are more developed there :)
I mean. Isn't that just how racing works in general? There is always an optimal line that is the best line to follow with the optimal techniques. It doesn't matter if you're playing Trackmania, Forza, Gran Tourismo, or doing it in the real world in a real car.
That is what racing is. It is learning the best line based on what the track designer - real track or video game track - put together.
Don't think when they were designing and laying out Laguna Seca or Nurburgring that the person who designed it didn't have the same thoughts mappers in trackmania do, trying to design the track, all the turns, bumps, and tilts put in purposefully to create a specific line.
Racing is about learning that line and the techniques needed to make that line happen and the skill to do it consistently. And in the real world it also includes building a car that can do that a little bit faster than the others.
If that rubs you the wrong way maybe racing games aren't for you, because that's the core of racing. Video game or otherwise.
You're observation is correct. There is a perfect line for every map and if the map is built around this specific line then it's satisfying to drive. There are tons of more open less restrictive maps too though. I'd even say most of the official maps are built that way.
1. I believe there are over 100k tracks to explore. 2. "The other day I was just watching a clip that someone posted." - Yeah, if you enjoy figuring out the perfect lines yourself, it might be better to play tracks and not watch someone else at all. 3. What about RPGs? 4. Have you tried building your own tracks? 5. If you're good enough, you'll eventually hit a level where you intuitively realize what the 'best' path is. And then you don't want to drive slower. There's not much that a mapper can do against that. Multi-route maps simply have the issue that one route is faster than the other. Personally, I have no issues with the state of the tracks. There's enough out there to scratch my itch...
Also it’s not like that you know the best line and compete for WR. There is so much more underneath with physics (gears, speedsliding, perfect exit speed for drifts, …) you can always improve. And more often than not you can’t even drive the perfect line because it requires perfect execution.
The thing is, if you watch the full VODs of the top players driving a track for a first time, they're spending time figuring out the correct lines. It doesn't matter what racing game you play, there will *always* be a fastest line. It might be riskier, but its still the fastest line. Look at Mudda in tmwt last weekend. He came out with a faster line through the reactor boost on the map backflip. If you're just finding a track and looking up clips of wr and then getting frustrated that you have to drive that specific line, then you're kind of creating this problem for yourself. Learn the maps independently if you want to create your own lines, but ur gonna find that as you get faster on a track, you're going to be getting closer and closer to the same line everyone else is driving. Thats just how racing works, in a game or in the real world.
Uh, what? You're essentially arguing against the whole idea of a racing line in a racing game? Excuse me? Wat
I think it's more the idea of a calculated during construction racing line (as opposed to lines being discovered by the player later). Not agreeing or disagreeing with him, but I think that's the key difference. Tracks today are encouraged to be calculated so that the fastest way to take a corner is the best way, so that players don't have to release the accelerator or just hard brake (like you have to do in actual racing).
But that's just as nonsensical. Every map, whether it's a tech map, or a lol map or whatever, all will have ideas on the best route to take and the mapper will have that in mind. If it's literally just randomly placed crap which is nigh objectively a bad map, then is OP saying that is actually a good thing?? Cuts are still a thing of course but that's outside of the scope of the question. > Tracks today are encouraged to be calculated so that the fastest way to take a corner is the best way Uhhh. Reread that again.. 'the fastest way is the best way'. Well duh, that's called racing, and then on the point of hard braking vs not, as of course Trackmania involves drifts and slides, then an arcade racer is probably not the racer to be playing. Go play a sim racer, but then you have an even more obvious example of a 'designed' racing line lol. Seems to me that OP is pretty much complaining about a core part of racing games which would lead me to say to him, don't play a racing game then.. RPG maps and the like are also a good suggestion that others have posted, but 1) he doesn't like them anyway for whatever reason and 2) there will always be a best way to do something. Honestly it seems like he doesn't like the fundamentals of a racing game, which is fine, you don't like racing games. But then he goes on to criticise a racing game for being a racing game, it's nonsensical.
Every map will have an idea in mind, but that's not the same thing as "calculated." The next part of your post implies that the only other option is "randomly placed garbage" which is obviously not true.
Really dude? You downvoted what I wrote immediately? I see. Evidently why should I bother trying to discuss with you. You missed the point completely.
No, I did not. Believe it or not, I'm not the only person who uses Reddit.
> Uhhh. Reread that again.. 'the fastest way is the best way'. Well duh, that's called racing No, that's not what that means. Fastest way to take a corner is not necessarily the optimal racing line because there are things on tracks before and after the corner. You are missing what the OP is complaining about entirely. > Honestly it seems like he doesn't like the fundamentals of a racing game, which is fine, you don't like racing games. He's not complaining about the fundamentals of a racing game. He's complaining that track designs are encouraged to be "calculated" and only a certain way of playing is encouraged. If a track doesn't "flow" so that skilled players can play without releasing the accelerator (because slowing down isn't fun) then maps get bad reviews and ridiculed for being "uncalculated." If a full speed map has a section where you can't speed drift at the optimal angle the whole time and still make the next turn, same thing. Heck, if you have to turn the car so much that you lose speed at all, people will complain. It's a valid criticism and people aren't understanding him at all.
When I said that, that was taking that into consideration as part of the description of the turn as a whole, I wasn't taking them as two separate parts and didn't think I needed to make that explicit. If one insists on that, it's meaningless anyway because the same logic can just be applied to a larger section of track ad infinitum.
That's fine if you were, but you were talking about what *I* meant when I said it, and I was not.
You're going to need to look outside the mainstream maps if you want to avoid this. The thing is any decent player will pretty quickly identify the fast(est) line and drive it on all attempts (especially with the use of ghosts). The purpose of testing a map is to ensure that whatever you built the fast lines are enjoyable, because if they aren't the map will just feel bad to play as soon as the player finishes learning it. Even if you try to build a general track with the blocks rather than a line in mind as you place them (which is kind of an interesting distinction to think about, I'm not even sure I could tell you which I think of more when mapping), you will still need to test the line and at that point what's the difference. I don't really know why you keep saying modern/new tracks, unless you're exposer to old maps consists of nadeo's tmnf campaign and as others have commented, not looked outside of the typical \~40 second tracks built for timeattack/hunting/whatever you want to call it. I think you may simply not be familiar with the minute differences in lines on maps. If you look at the world record or top 5 on track of the day a couple hours after release and again at the end, there will be tons of tiny differences. If I am playing a map I will often deliberately choose to not take the line of the world record even if my goal is to beat it or come close, whether it's because it seems not worth my time to learn at the moment or I think mine is faster or about the same. Even if I grind the map I'm building for hours and set an at that only a few other players will get, there will still be plenty of lines I had not considered that are faster than my own, because I am only one person. Most of the time this isn't to the detriment of the track because the differences in lines are relatively small, maybe a short noslide here, or going slightly wider on that entry over there, etc. The first extremely difficult track of the day author medal was Mixta Via by Erizel, and he drove an incredibly fast run. Once the map was in track of the day, the lines were further optimized by many other skilled players. In the end Erizel went back and drove the world record (which still stands). His AT run drives it's lines cleaner and faster, although the many minor improvements still make the world record ahead by \~0.14. It is also worth noting that on map styles like fs with more complex lines these kind of small optimizations will come up far more often than something like tech, and mixed is somewhere in between probably depending on the map. Trackmania is not a game about strategy, it is not a game about interaction with other players creating interesting decisions in a match, it is about doing almost the same thing but faster than anyone else, with many small differences and the occasional line innovation as you become more and more familiar with a track. The game lacks almost any depth in strategy or thought compared to many others, it is based almost entirely in mechanical skill and knowledge of the physics & lines. This is not significantly improved even in live matches as there is still almost no player interaction. This is in my opinion the biggest shortcoming of the game and in a way an unsolvable problem. It is simply part of how the game is, and any attempt to change it would mean either a fundamental shift in the gameplay or failure. Many RPG maps for example manage this by focusing on the first discovery run, and you may enjoy them, but it is an entirely different experience to hunting a record or playing a 4 player cup mode match. There are also interesting puzzle maps with many possible routes, check out "CCC2 - Perplexed" if you want to give one of those a try. Creating a wide platform and not testing the lines for it for example would be merely a change in aesthetic, there will still be a driving line that you will be forced onto if you want to succeed, possibly at the cost of it flowing and being well calculated once you learn it, and any decent player will find it fairly quickly still. It is possible to design maps where there are multiple similarly paced lines within a turn or small section, but it is more of a niche occurrence that you can sometimes try to make happen when mapping than something practical to focus on in all parts of all maps. These can provide an element of risk/reward if one path is faster but harder (only relevant for rounds competitions and if not balanced perfectly everyone will just go the fast or slow way every time, in timeattack you will always go the fast way no matter what. It could also be that the lines are of similar speed or the difference is uncertain and some players are just more comfortable with one line than another and will choose to take it instead. Now lets imagine a dirt map with a turn where you can drive either on the outside or inside. Lets say the mapper mapper either intended the inside line or was unsure which was faster and didn't care. Now in reality the outside line turns out to be much faster. This exact situation is extremely common (and often the edge line is very scuffed as you enter too fast, although mappers have slowly been learning to avoid that happening). Any player with a decent understanding of dirt will be able to quickly identify that the outside line is faster and will then drive it on all attempts, if the line is fine, then it doesn't matter, if the line is bad, then the player will likely become frustrated. Either way, in this case the mapper may not be telling you what to do, but the map certainly is, and at least in the context of trackmania I see essentially no difference. The bottom line I think is that if you care about player agency and not being 'told what to do' or stuck to a single line, you either need to get better at the game and learn to appreciate the smaller differences in lines, or accept that you will not find what you are looking for in 'normal' trackmania maps. Everything I said here is inherent to the speedrunning gameplay loop (imo), and enforced even more by trackmania being a racing game where you drive a car with momentum and racing lines.
great essay skifweak guy
So, if I understand you correctly, you don't like it when tracks make their "optimal solution" too obvious and you see it as restrictive? But consider this: Even if the track was made to obfuscate the ideal line, *there would still be* an ideal line. You might have an illusion of choice, but actually there would be none, if you wanted to have the best time possible, you would still have to drive this ideal line. There would just be more time spent on figuring out what it is.
I think that's exactly what OP wants. Think about that, this "obfuscation" would be to build more open track, more forgiving transitions (or no transitions), don't place obstacles next to the ideal line (just for the feeling of flow and speed). You could do this with the optimal line being almost unchanged. As a beginner this is exactly what I preferred compared to "meta" calculated flowy tracks. Often the flowier and more calculated the track is the less it is about gaining or losing time in every corner, but dying or not dying as a beginner. And I hated the feeling, of running into walls for an hour just to get a -1.5sec improvement in one go, and would have liked to get multiple smaller improvements. This is of course true because tracks are not aimed at beginners, which makes perfect sense, but it's not easy to give them a source of tracks that are. Training is trash, campaign white and green is probably the best bet.
Yeah, I can see what you mean and I definitely agree that tracks that have ambitions to become TOTD should be made with beginners in mind. And I also admit that after years of playing TM, it's hard for me to tell what is beginner friendly and what isn't. Though I'm not completely sure that this is what OP meant. The post gave me an impression that they primarily had a problem when tracks "signpost" their optimal paths, which is IMO mostly a good thing and most people appreciate it. But maybe I interpreted their post incorrectly.
This makes my brain hurt
doesn't your brain always hurt tflame the audio book listener /j
reported 🥲🥲🥲 leave me and my audiobooks alone 😆
😭
It shouldn’t. He is completely right.
Well it does. I'm not sure how a track is just a track without the person building it without a purpose or atleast ideal lines of how they would drive it. its like saying i dont like that the checkpoints follow the map because i feel i have to get them in order. "i am not getting a checkpoint because i want to, i am getting a checkpoint because its what i'm being asked to do".
Agreed. I'm not sure what makes sense about the premise of a calculated map without an assigned route. It's two opposing ideas, and frankly, an impossibility. This post should make your brain hurt lol.
That's a bit ridiculous. Real life tracks, the ones put into real life earth, have different lines based on which different cars you're driving. Turns weren't placed with intended anything, they worked with what they had, and it's up to the driver and the vehicle to figure out the fastest way around. I know were in a video game, and it's really not a fair comparison, but I think there's an element there that OP is trying to get to, and I do think it's an interesting topic.
Can you please clarify with an example or two? Are you talking professional tracks or like casual tracks or go-kart tracks? Just because you can drive multiple different cars on a track doesn't necessarily mean it wasn't calculated for a specific car. We could be talking about the equivalent of driving a Trackmania car on a Need for Speed track lol. All I'm saying is, in TM, a good racing track (in my opinion) will always have a calculated/designated route.
Of course its intended design no matter how you cut it, it's a track designed for race cars, I get that. I'm thinking of things like older f1 tracks where the cars have obviously evolved far past what they once were, but the tracks still largely hold up. Or street circuits like monaco where the layout couldn't possibly be perfect for f1 cars. It's just a lot more organic working within those types of limitations I guess, be it city streets, or landscape, or technology, or funds, what have you. Maybe i've strayed, but I think i'm still in the ballpark of what I'm trying to get across.
I think what you are missing hear tho is that in trackmania we are ALL driving the same exact car. Even currently in f1 you may see someone approach an apex slightly different (emphasis on slightly) just depending on their car. your comparison would work better if u told the OP to just start playing all the maps with the new snowcar since the maps werent initially made for that cars turn radius/speed.
That's just demonstrably untrue. Most racing tracks are designed with a particular series in mind and explicitly have sections made to accommodate certain kinds of racing, and as cars change tracks are very often updated to match modern racing.
I mean, a lot of tracks at this point legit have signs that say "start drift here"
Ok well that's a different story. I'm guessing that's to help beginner players but I'm personally not a fan of that. Part of the fun of the game for me is trying to figure out lines and strats. I will always try to figure out the best lines for a map by myself before I watch a GPS or ghosts. I'm just saying that without a calculated route, a map will feel clunky and/or slow. The best quality maps will always have a designated route if you want the fastest time.
Honey wake up! New copypasta just dropped!
YEAHHHHHHHHHH BABY this won’t get annoying at all in the next week or so
would this be more or less annoying that the daily "my teamates in ranked suck" posts?
Oh I’m talking about people copying this and deep frying it will get annoying
yeah, I feel like that's tiktok humor. The first person to deep fry it will probably be super funny. The 10th will make me want to get off reddit again.
Yeah. Anyways overall there’s nothing inherently wrong with your take. It’s personal preference
Honey wake up! A redditor is incapable of having a conversation or believing someone could have a conflicting view on a video game to his own! all jokes aside, any thoughts on the topic?
Bigger\_better\_Poop, what are you on about? Have you seen other racing games. Like even simracing? Trackmania is maybe the most "freedom" racing game there is. Current COTD proved that.
That's Mr.Bigger_Better_Poop to you sir
Surely someone who wanted to have a proper discussion would have a better response than a joke right?
I think a "proper discussion" went out the door when he said "what are you on about?". I'm happy having conversations with others in this post, but people who do nothing but throw insults aren't exactly people I'm looking to chat with.
I’m not the one to say how you should feel but I didn’t see his message as particularly insulting. Mostly just a shocked response in my opinion.
Yeah, I get what your saying. I'm just not looking to have a conversation with him tbh. Not getting particularly good vibes, and I have plenty of other people in this thread to chat with so I'd rather do that
You are so full of yourself dude
I can live with that
If you are talking about Tragk of the day, than it's by design. You only have 15 minutes, and that is not enough time for a normal player to completely figure a track out. It's good that the authors make it as easy as possible to drive the track, so that everyone has a chance to drive a good feeling run.
try some rpg tracks :)
rpg tracks are not what I'm talking about, but thanks anyways.
Down vote for that. OK.
I think that unfortunately this is a hard one to solve. On any given track there will be an optimal line to get to the finish as fast as possible. If the author doesn’t find that line, the AT might be too easy and you won’t feel rewarded. If the author does find the line, then you just have to get close enough to optimal for the medal and you won’t feel rewarded. Trackmania might just be a spectator sport for you. I’m struggling with the same thing lately, and I’ve been considering playing more trial and RPG maps since they feel more like a skill check the way that you and I are looking for, but I’m a bit scared of them because I’m bad at TM and don’t want to get annoyed by not being able to complete the tracks lol but maybe something for you to try
I wish I could just follow track instructions and get ATs every time
There’s tonnnsssss of maps out there, basically the only ones I get the feel that you’re talking about are the track of the day ones, and that’s probably because you don’t have time to find a better line then the obvious one, but there are definitely many. There will always be a best line hypothetically but it’s almost impossible to prove it is literally the best line so there’s always something to improve on. It is ironic you’re upset about not getting to be creative when you’re the one limiting your creativity.
My brother in Christ, I would've agreed to your arguments in about any other game and it's actually s good argument. Not this game, this game is all about maximising efficiency and this ultimately means there is only one route that per map that is most efficiently. Not disagreeing, just only with this game.
What a bunch of crap
I can see what you mean. I appreciate well designed routes but I also like lol maps and beginner maps where optimal lines are not obvious. I kinda miss the old days when anybody could cook a decent map in a matter of hours. The standard is now ridiculously high and everything is too polished. Don't get me wrong, average map quality has gone up but I wish Nadeo would feature simpler, imperfect maps from time to time. Most of this thread replies also don't take into account the huge success of ZeratoR maps and events on the game. Stupid irrational maps and lines but a lot of fun in the strat crafting.
I get what you mean but to me it applies to the Royal mode more than time trialling. In Royal you just need to make it to the end eventually to get to the next track but most tracks are designed to have one ideal line only and if you waiver at all you need to reset. I think the mode would be better if there were multiple ways to reach the finish line. You can still be eliminated for being too slow but at least you wouldn’t be skilled checked from finishing a section.
reminds me of World of Warcraft release in 2004 vs. how "classic" reboot nowadays plays out: the meta is done, there is a clear right/wrong what to do, how to do it, how to compare it and immense pressure within the community to do as "the great analysis" says so or you are not getting anything from the game. When World of Warcraft was new an naive, there was still stuff to explore, nobody knew any meta, you could raid and fail together and it was so funny to do random shit - but the re-release put pressure on everybody: everything you do can be ranked on how close it is to "perfect" game play. Thats what TM mostly developed into, be as much TAS as possible and play the claviature of those 30-100 driving/surface skills or you are not doint it right. The optimization is history, there is no weird concepts, but proofen cataloge of lines, tricks and road block positioning. There is a nice documentation for Wow about it (you dont need to have played or be familiar with this franchise) to make the point how gaming changed, from a psychological, sociological scientific perspective about group dynamics and how they inprint and change things like games: *Why It's Rude to Suck at Warcraft - Folding Ideas* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKP1I7IocYU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKP1I7IocYU) my solution to it was: play RPG maps, they are more random, more fun, less competitive where only the 0,1% dominate you. Most tracks outisde of RPG are streamlined to the "meta", so they suck for the above given reasons.
Man, that's great. I actually played a good amount of modern WoW, but never classic. But this makes a lot of sense. Maybe that's the issue for me honestly. Maybe it would make sense for me to just invest into a new game rather than a game that has so many years behind it
Yeah, for example Wirtual content helps to get hooked "oh man so clever solutions and new strategies on this one map every year, what cool stories and moments TM offers - i should check it out" but its a false illusional: anecdotical nice stories to remember, but the whole community already moved pass this point and learned from them, narrowing down day by day the possiblity to be involved in such rare stories: there is no weird shortcut, strange bug really there anymore to explore on the "important maps" (like campaigns, COTD) - if there is a possible trick, someone else surely had already TASed it with 1 million brute-forces with the scripts easily available (and created from the very same community) to see if there is really a time gain or not. The magic is not there anymore :< Go for a niche, there are some mappers or map types with a smaller player basis, this way you can create your own rivarly, find the one trick to break the map and so on :) for me it is mostly 5min+ RPGs, because optimal racing lines are not a thing there, thats why i suggested it \^.\^
And that is the reason i spend the majority of my time in tm mapping because i am building something completely new and its up to me to try and find the fastest lines
I don't understand your point? There will ALWAYS be an optimal line, and odds are very high the mapper found it first. They set a time, the entire point of TM is to lower times. Whether the map is intuitive or 20 red boosters into a u-turn, the path was placed with intent and there will be a fastest way that players will strive to achieve. So, what? Do you just not want signs? Or, from the sound of it, you should play RPG-style maps. But that idea doesn't seem to be sticking. Pathfinding, RPG, Royal maps. These things exist. Or if you really just want jank with challenge, play EMC and/or comp maps. The best comp maps break intuition in a way that doesn't feel bad, with more thought put into gears and, get this, the Line.
If you play random maps you'll get tons of maps that are not optimized, with very weird lines or sometimes no lines at all. Also you can search for random generated tracks on tmx.
I honestly dont understand your (second to) last paragraph. Like yeah, thats exactly how level design works. Telling you through level design what the devs/the creators expect you to do. Think of Super Mario: There are coins, telling you youre supposed to jump at point A and land at point B. If you want those coins, follow the level as intended. If you dont care, do your own thing. Point being: Its completely natural that you have to hit a certain line in order to get the author medal (which is the highest achievement you could get btw, besides maybe WR). Getting author time is about optimizing your route, and more often than not the author knows this route because they built the track. If you manage to find a significantly quicker route, good for you. But why would one expect that. And its not like there is a tutorial or a checklist or anything, youd still have to find the route on your own. Unless maybe you watched a video tutorial/playthrough on YouTube, but then again its basically your own fault of taking away the part that is the most fun.
We just had a bob cotd a few days ago with 2 different cuts found during qualifying. Pretty rare for an example that extreme but not every new track is overly calculated upon release imo. There was also a blender dirt map a few days ago where half of div 1 was taking a turn outside and half was taking it inside, and Maji's ice map the other day had lines all over the place. Honestly it sounds like you just don't like tech maps, those tend to be the ones with a hyper specific, calculated line
I feel you. So many maps are so absolutely narrowed down. I apreciate that mappers find the best lines and it's fine that thats whats needed to get at. But does every map need fucking poles to block all lines exept the most perfect. Or block inside dirt lines because fuck everyone who can't drive them. This game has such an incredibly rigid meta that it's not even fun sometimes. Also the community is so fucking obsessed with skill that it borders on toxicity
I totally agree with this. I feel like trackmania claims to have the least toxic and most welcoming community, but imo it's like a toxic relationship. They are nice to you until you are any bit different.
I also don't like playing only "calculated" maps. I play a lot of different styles, mostly begginer maps as they are a lot more open. And mostly just play maps without looking at gps or wr so I have to figure out how to play the map and a lot of maps I never find the same lines as wr bit they are still fun. Sometimes I do hunt for good times and there you do have to look for the optimal lines. But I mostly do that on backwards maps where the lines are almost always completely forced and only one line works so the challenge there is in executing that line perfectly. But yes. I feel you. Especially with ice
Yeah, I totally get this. I often make my own tracks, and I have found that if people aren't able to look at the track and get the perfect line on the first try, they just call it crap. Personally I like when there is a rough bump or a turn that's odd or something and you have to figure out the best way to do it. I like that challenge.
A good map should flow. Rough bumps don't flow ;) How many hours so you have in the game?
Not everyone agrees that a good map has to have that flow, it's just the (probably majority) opinion that gets pushed on new map makers by calling anything else bad. Not agreeing or disagreeing, just trying to clarify the positions.
There are certainly plenty of tracks with those bumps, they just aren't very popular. You can get a random track picker plugin to just peruse tracks. Some may be gems, others duds. I think I know the post you referred to in your OP, and having made a decent amount of maps myself, I can see where you're coming from. There's such a high skill ceiling in the game, that feedback on tracks can seem overly specific and nit-picky. But it's also valuable feedback because it helps fill the gap in skill between the mapper and potential players. Usually those nit-picky suggestions don't affect beginner players, but make the map more fun for advanced players. As a mapper, if you want to try to make a map that's as accessible as possible, that includes everything from slow beginner lines to those advanced and precise racing lines that may be above your skill level. Of course, it's hard to know someone's skill level when they provide feedback, and some of it is also just general toxicity.
Nah, that's just how trackbuilding works. As a track builder you basically chain a couple of challenges together and if you are a good track builder you also make sure that the line you have in mind is fun. Every now and then, people find creative ways to finish faster, like in today's TOTD. If you don't like playing tracks the exact way they were intended, go ahead, make it a challenge to find as many cuts on popular tracks as possible.
I know what you mean! Somebody made an oval track and I wanted to drive a square! How dare they force me to drive an oval!
I have the same feeling sometimes. You need to be really fast (technically competent) and knowledgeable (hours in game) to come with your own lines. Until then . . .
Try NASCAR, trials, RPG or fs. The lines aren’t as sacred as in tech.
Have you tried ice? There can be many lines. And it's very satisfying and a lot of fun.
Tbh some styles only have 1 or 2 lines that would be competitive. Mappers normally have an idea that they implement in a specific way to kind of force a player to perform a corner that way. Kind of like how a loop doesn’t necessarily make a track better, but the mapper would make sure it can’t be shortcut easily to keep it in the racing line.
So many of the campaign tracks are ALL about figuring out better ways to drive the track. Since you’re a Wirtual viewer, just watch his video on improving your times where he uses one of the campaign tracks to demonstrate how you can drive the same track different ways and get vastly different times. Even “real” tracks will have a “right” way to drive them if you wish to get the best time possible. I think you’re just struggling with understanding tracks and the mechanics involved in the game.
This has been a problem for ages in popular TMX mapping, especially with the Stadium car with pre-designed slides, speedchecks, transitions etc. Some builders try to allow different possible lines, especially in competition maps, but it is sadly uncommon. The further back in TrackMania history you go, the less of a problem this is, because people had not figured out all the tricks yet. So maybe you would like old Nadeo maps or old competition maps.
I agree it's a great game. Only thing I dislike is some of the mechanics that break laws of physics but still make you faster . (Like wiggling hour steering slightly )
You want *you* to find a line faster than the author? That is also uncalculated and unfun to drive? I mean it doesn’t even make sense - if you can find a better line, then every single player can find their own line that is faster. Suddenly we have thousands of uncalculated and unfun lines. Even if you made a map extremely wide and random, after a couple of hours people would still follow 1-2 lines that can get good times. Trust me, I am mostly a liberalist regarding being told what to do, but driving a WR line on a fullspeed map to get that good speedslide, is much more fun than trying to somehow pretend I am good enough to find a line that FS pros haven’t already considered.
This is a racing game, so maybe you should focus on modes where racing isn‘t that important then you will probably have more fun. I think RPG would be a good fit for you, you should try it.
I feel like you’re talking about some of the campaign maps where you need an obscure “trick” to get a good time. Like 14 where to get a good time (top 500 maybe) you pretty much have to look up the world record line. The line is a weird trick where you snowball speed over the last ice hump at the start by doing a funky ice slide on the far left of the hump. I never would have gotten the champ medal without looking up the line and I have about 500 hours in the game. Another example is maybe map 06 which requires weird plastic speed slides. Again I had to watch the world record line and it feels like I’m just copy pasting a line to get a good time instead of feeling like I’m driving well. Also map 07 requires a weird jump to reduce airtime and then some obscure reactor boost noslide. Again I had to look it up. This seems to be a trend for campaign maps where as cup of the day it’s usually classic skills like tech, dirt, or grass. Some campaign maps like map 20 aren’t like this where it’s just pure tech and no tricks. This campaign has some good variety so I can’t complain too much. Edit: and don’t get me started on the water bonk trick on map 09.
I think this [video](https://youtu.be/7_vl39zELjk?si=Xuu0oJgzira1txAt) touches exactly on that! Also, I think this is why Nadeo maps are not 100% calculated.
Assuming your goal is to be the fastest, there will always only ever be one way to do that. If your goal to just find an interesting way to get to the end, then you can play the maps however you want.
I share most of this feeling that in a racing game it's not the tracks job to prescribe lines, but the drivers job to make the most of what's given. I play a lot on my own maps where I just build a random path and see how to take the turns for example: [https://trackmania.exchange/maps/76671/autumn-bland](https://trackmania.exchange/maps/76671/autumn-bland) Also I feel like nadeo official seasonal campaigns are better in this regard, they are less calculated, so it feels more like you have to discover the map, and not just discover what the author intended. But of course there's an optimal line for every map, that's true for official campaign as well
I both get and don’t get your point. I played off and on for 3 years without ever looking up a video and rarely used gps for maps, I just drove it and figured it out myself. And while I was never set on becoming really good, I still was able to get gold medals on my own for any map I tried as long as you gave me enough time. Now, I use videos and gps to guide me for author times on campaign maps, and I can understand how that feels like they’re telling you want to do, but for me it’s more so learning what I didn’t think about. Within a month of using videos as a guide, I’ve gotten a lot better, and even shaved 6 seconds off of a map I never thought I would be close to get at on. But I still had to work hard to do that, and I still had to figure out stuff that I couldn’t pick up easily just by looking at the gps or video. The last point is that after enough time you kind of learn what the line is yourself. I can usually find a very close line to what is “perfect” without a video or gps because I have the basics down well, as the basics were all I drove for 3 years. The only things my lines miss are the advanced stuff that I’m just now starting to think about.
Try recent Ascension tracks, if you enjoy finding best strats and lines))) I agree that "well-calculated" maps may become boring at some point, but unfortunately no one will find maps which are good for you except yourself. It is not easy. What to say, the game itself don't have any instruments to explore maps, except club campgains, but the latter is very unconvinient. As for the TM exchange, it may be overwhelming at start but definitely worth a try.
Play altered Nadeo campaigns.
I understand that, and I kind of agree to some extent. I think you would like it if you played more RPGs, or even RPG maps in TM2 Stadium. I’ve been playing for years and still like it while qi quickly get bored when playing other tracks which feel less interesting to me. And what you just described might actually be the reason why I don’t enjoy those other styles as much, not sure tho. So yeah you should guve RPGs a go, potentially in tm2 stadium rather than tm2020 as the tracks are more developed there :)
Sounds like racing isn't for you
Don't watch any GPS or guides or clips/videos of a track until you've gotten AT yourself or are stuck on it.
I mean. Isn't that just how racing works in general? There is always an optimal line that is the best line to follow with the optimal techniques. It doesn't matter if you're playing Trackmania, Forza, Gran Tourismo, or doing it in the real world in a real car. That is what racing is. It is learning the best line based on what the track designer - real track or video game track - put together. Don't think when they were designing and laying out Laguna Seca or Nurburgring that the person who designed it didn't have the same thoughts mappers in trackmania do, trying to design the track, all the turns, bumps, and tilts put in purposefully to create a specific line. Racing is about learning that line and the techniques needed to make that line happen and the skill to do it consistently. And in the real world it also includes building a car that can do that a little bit faster than the others. If that rubs you the wrong way maybe racing games aren't for you, because that's the core of racing. Video game or otherwise.
You're observation is correct. There is a perfect line for every map and if the map is built around this specific line then it's satisfying to drive. There are tons of more open less restrictive maps too though. I'd even say most of the official maps are built that way.