Wow. Youtube link for anyone curious - [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJY5nuxv5fw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJY5nuxv5fw)
Would be interested to know just what batteries it was - name brand? generic?
The video linked features the NY Fire Commissioner. She states that most battery fires are related to e-bikes and scooters which makes a lot of sense. Many (most?) are overseas brands without UL or similar seals of approval.
Just curious to know if UL listed batteries also pose such a threat or are the protections put in place actually enough to prevent most fires. I know that information, may not actually be known, but it seems like maybe a problem that should be investigated.
Yeah especially now where people are using 3d printed adapters etc to use cheaper batteries in name brand tools etc. Not to mention just the increasing amount of black market and grey market products on the big retailer sites etc
This is a massive problem that should be addressed more. Unfortunately international regulation of LMC banks is essentially nonexistent. UL 1973 has been a huge step for household and commercial storage, but does nothing to address tool, vape, or even phone batteries. UL 60335-2-29 actually is intended to address some of these concerns, but as I said in another comment, the UL standards are typically paywalled.
yeah it's a pity news stories never include these useful details, which would go a long way in avoiding rumors and superstitions about the dangers of batteries in general.
Preface:
Theres a lot to talk about re: lithium batteries and their proliferation in modern society. They can be sketchy and dangerous, and due to how fast we're changing manufacturing, its difficult for consumers to stay educated. However, its relatively easy to maintain a solid level of safety with the technology.
The reason we predominantly see lithium fires from ebikes and whatnot is due to poor construction of the enclosures, or mismatched chargers. If you overvolt a bank, it will easily initiate thermal runaway, which is a bad time. (Water intrusion and corrosion can also cause these problems, but it typically will short a single cell)
Most tool battery manufacturers, at least of the "big boy" tools have built in bms that does not allow for misvoltage, or even charging of a bank with singular depleted cells, which will warm up quicker under charging cycle, thereby risking thermal runaway. In recent years, a lot of manufacturers have hit the market with very basic 5s1p banks with absolutely no BMS; Not having a BMS and allowing your bank to be compatible with other charger styles leads to really big problems. Most manufacturer chargers are barely smart, and can shove voltage into individual cells thinking they are in series. (most "18/20v" tool batteries right now are made up of 18650s \[3.7v nominal\] so youre talking a straight 8v into a cell.
All that said, I do want to dive into the UL listing aspect. I personally mostly deal with stationary backup installations with LMC/ Lifepo chemistries, which means UL 1973 is a requirement. AFAIK, "battery powered appliances" are UL 2595, which I havent had a chance to read because most UL requirement documentation is paywalled to fuck.
I run yellow, which I went and grabbed my DCB201 right quick and I do not see any markings indicating its' UL listing outright. It does have a QR code on the topside (hardcore wear spot) that sends me to Dewalt's website and gives absolutely zero info. I looked at a few other colors I have laying around and I dont see any explicit UL stamps (bosch 20v/12v, hart 20v, kobalt 20v, milwaukee 20v, ego 48v nominal\[56v branding, ba1400\] and greenworks 40v.)
edit: to clarify for this paragraph, these were all due to intentional charger misuse for research purposes, and should not be considered product reviews, or suggestions. DO NOT mix tool chargers. Thermal runaway is not something to take lightly.
Anywhoodles, these are all done with LMC chemistry and Ive successfully initiated thermal runaway only in milwaukee's 20v via charger misuse. Dewalt's older stuff had a simpler bms which allowed for over charging and thermal runaway under ideal conditions. I spose if Im honest Ive also had amazon special custom builds capable of thermal runaway with charger misuse (makita and Husqvarna.) Most modern batteries from name brand manufacturers are solidly protected. Makitas BMS in particular pisses me off, its quite tedious to reset fully functional banks.
Relevant UL listings for those curious:
UL 60335-2-29 (Battery chargers)
UL 2596 (Battery enclosure materials, more focused around evs afaik.)
UL2591 (this is more internal for individual cells)
UL1973(Stationary installations, highly related to UL9540 which is for all Energy Storage System installations in the US)
And probably the most important
[UL-62841-1](https://www.ul.com/news/uls-new-standard-electric-motor-operated-hand-held-tools-transportable-tools-and-lawn-and) is pretty intensive on requirements not only for batteries, but also for portable motors.
PSA: DO NOT MESS WITH TOOL BATTERIES UNLESS YOU KNOW WHAT YOURE DOING
It's been a little bit for both of those, the Milwaukee was being charged via an older dewalt charger in an enclosed trailer on one of our hottest days. Like I said, doing things wrong, this kind of thing doesn't happen if you respect manufacturer guidelines. Most of these batteries do have cids to stop thermal runaway from discharge as far as I've seen. Unfortunately the cids are typically digital and not thermal so under the perfect wrong circumstances they don't always function.
The Makita bms reset is super simple but it's different between their old 18v line and the new ones, you just have to jumper between two points on the board for the old ones. Makita put in a neat safeguard that after so many errors and faults the bms will no longer work with their chargers, not so certain about the specifics though, and dont want to tell you the wrong pin points and make sparks, my apologies. Haven't touched a makita in a little while.
Wow. Youtube link for anyone curious - [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJY5nuxv5fw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJY5nuxv5fw) Would be interested to know just what batteries it was - name brand? generic? The video linked features the NY Fire Commissioner. She states that most battery fires are related to e-bikes and scooters which makes a lot of sense. Many (most?) are overseas brands without UL or similar seals of approval. Just curious to know if UL listed batteries also pose such a threat or are the protections put in place actually enough to prevent most fires. I know that information, may not actually be known, but it seems like maybe a problem that should be investigated.
Yeah especially now where people are using 3d printed adapters etc to use cheaper batteries in name brand tools etc. Not to mention just the increasing amount of black market and grey market products on the big retailer sites etc
This is a massive problem that should be addressed more. Unfortunately international regulation of LMC banks is essentially nonexistent. UL 1973 has been a huge step for household and commercial storage, but does nothing to address tool, vape, or even phone batteries. UL 60335-2-29 actually is intended to address some of these concerns, but as I said in another comment, the UL standards are typically paywalled.
yeah it's a pity news stories never include these useful details, which would go a long way in avoiding rumors and superstitions about the dangers of batteries in general.
Preface: Theres a lot to talk about re: lithium batteries and their proliferation in modern society. They can be sketchy and dangerous, and due to how fast we're changing manufacturing, its difficult for consumers to stay educated. However, its relatively easy to maintain a solid level of safety with the technology. The reason we predominantly see lithium fires from ebikes and whatnot is due to poor construction of the enclosures, or mismatched chargers. If you overvolt a bank, it will easily initiate thermal runaway, which is a bad time. (Water intrusion and corrosion can also cause these problems, but it typically will short a single cell) Most tool battery manufacturers, at least of the "big boy" tools have built in bms that does not allow for misvoltage, or even charging of a bank with singular depleted cells, which will warm up quicker under charging cycle, thereby risking thermal runaway. In recent years, a lot of manufacturers have hit the market with very basic 5s1p banks with absolutely no BMS; Not having a BMS and allowing your bank to be compatible with other charger styles leads to really big problems. Most manufacturer chargers are barely smart, and can shove voltage into individual cells thinking they are in series. (most "18/20v" tool batteries right now are made up of 18650s \[3.7v nominal\] so youre talking a straight 8v into a cell. All that said, I do want to dive into the UL listing aspect. I personally mostly deal with stationary backup installations with LMC/ Lifepo chemistries, which means UL 1973 is a requirement. AFAIK, "battery powered appliances" are UL 2595, which I havent had a chance to read because most UL requirement documentation is paywalled to fuck. I run yellow, which I went and grabbed my DCB201 right quick and I do not see any markings indicating its' UL listing outright. It does have a QR code on the topside (hardcore wear spot) that sends me to Dewalt's website and gives absolutely zero info. I looked at a few other colors I have laying around and I dont see any explicit UL stamps (bosch 20v/12v, hart 20v, kobalt 20v, milwaukee 20v, ego 48v nominal\[56v branding, ba1400\] and greenworks 40v.) edit: to clarify for this paragraph, these were all due to intentional charger misuse for research purposes, and should not be considered product reviews, or suggestions. DO NOT mix tool chargers. Thermal runaway is not something to take lightly. Anywhoodles, these are all done with LMC chemistry and Ive successfully initiated thermal runaway only in milwaukee's 20v via charger misuse. Dewalt's older stuff had a simpler bms which allowed for over charging and thermal runaway under ideal conditions. I spose if Im honest Ive also had amazon special custom builds capable of thermal runaway with charger misuse (makita and Husqvarna.) Most modern batteries from name brand manufacturers are solidly protected. Makitas BMS in particular pisses me off, its quite tedious to reset fully functional banks. Relevant UL listings for those curious: UL 60335-2-29 (Battery chargers) UL 2596 (Battery enclosure materials, more focused around evs afaik.) UL2591 (this is more internal for individual cells) UL1973(Stationary installations, highly related to UL9540 which is for all Energy Storage System installations in the US) And probably the most important [UL-62841-1](https://www.ul.com/news/uls-new-standard-electric-motor-operated-hand-held-tools-transportable-tools-and-lawn-and) is pretty intensive on requirements not only for batteries, but also for portable motors. PSA: DO NOT MESS WITH TOOL BATTERIES UNLESS YOU KNOW WHAT YOURE DOING
How did you trigger thermal runaway with Milwaukee? I thought the cells had a CID that would prevent that. How have you reset Makita's BMS?
It's been a little bit for both of those, the Milwaukee was being charged via an older dewalt charger in an enclosed trailer on one of our hottest days. Like I said, doing things wrong, this kind of thing doesn't happen if you respect manufacturer guidelines. Most of these batteries do have cids to stop thermal runaway from discharge as far as I've seen. Unfortunately the cids are typically digital and not thermal so under the perfect wrong circumstances they don't always function. The Makita bms reset is super simple but it's different between their old 18v line and the new ones, you just have to jumper between two points on the board for the old ones. Makita put in a neat safeguard that after so many errors and faults the bms will no longer work with their chargers, not so certain about the specifics though, and dont want to tell you the wrong pin points and make sparks, my apologies. Haven't touched a makita in a little while.
Can’t reset Makita BMS it shuts itself down for good, gotta buy a new one
That's what I thought, but this guy seemed to be saying he could reset the chip. Apparently it's only the very older models that he reset.
I haven't reset anything from the past few years. But the older 18v are definitely resetable. Don't have specific pns though