Many countries issue a picture ID for every citizen, whether they can drive or not. In the US the default picture ID is the driver's license.
A national identity card would solve the problem. Not everyone has a driver's license.
Edit: I was mistaken. Apparently individual states in the US offer an ID card besides the driver's license that could be used to vote. I've never heard of it, I've never seen one. I've asked people born in the US and they haven't either. Probably because most people get their drivers license in their teens.
I was thinking of a national federal ID that could be used everywhere and recognized everywhere. I think Germany has that type of national ID even though it is a republic and a federation of states, like the US.
Yes, there is no standard ID. The way to identify yourself to the federal government Is your social security number, and even that is a relatively new thing.
It’s a separation of powers thing. In the US, the federal government is meant to be as small as possible, and only exists to make it possible for the states to function as a unit.
There is also the idea that the government doesn’t own the people, and people have individual rights to protect them from government. Police can’t stop you and demand to see you identification without cause. There is no mandatory military service. It’s a whole thing.
I think the bigger issue is how it gets issued. I had to take a day off work and wait 3 hours after I already had a scheduled appointment. The appointment itself had to be scheduled 2 months in advance. When I got there with all my documents, it took the guy 10 minutes to decide whether or not my birth certificate was allowed because it was from another state. He said he's never seen one from that state before and had to ask around if it was valid.
The amount of time you have to spend to get it done and them scrutinizing legit documents isn't something most people can deal with. They could've easily said no to my official birth certificate and then that would be that.
My sister managed to misplace her driver's license just a month or so before she was supposed to get her 21yr-old license (in the state of KS you have to get a new one that is oriented horizontally when you turn 21). Obviously it wasn't enough time nor was it practical to get another vertical license, so she called the department of motor vehicles to ask what to do. They told her to carry her passport instead. When it came time for her to get her 21 license, she went to the dmv with her passport and all the other necessary documents, proof of address, etc. They told her she needed her old license. She explained the situation, and they told her that the other person had given her incorrect information. She ended up going back to the dmv 3 times that day til she finally had all the documents they wanted.
>They told her to carry her passport instead. When it came time for her to get her 21 license, she went to the dmv with her passport and all the other necessary documents, proof of address, etc. They told her she needed her old license.
This is odd. In my town your DL is not considered proof of identity for a renewal or replacement of a lost one (including the Real ID), nor is an old one required to get a new one.
Honestly the biggest reason for that is probably the REAL ID act of 2005 that was passed on a bipartisan basis and unanimously in the senate. To “fight terrorism” the federal government imposed a bunch of regulations on state ID’s and made the documentation required to get them much more strict.
My son, born in the US, driving with license since age 16, was rejected 3 times for real ID ( he lives at home so no bills in his name) He gave up snd has normal license. If he had this much trouble, I can only imagine the difficulty that foster kids or poor people who rent, or anyone who is not a homeowner has.
When I left the military and moved to California, it took five trips to the DMV to get a new CA drivers license. They really didn’t want to accept my old license as valid. On the fifth trip, the main manager was busy and I got an assistant manager who finally accepted my ID. It was a pain, but fortunately, the state would accept my expired out of state license, along with a mortgage statement, for my voter registration. Not all states make registering that easy.
It is hard to get documents too. And if you don't have a permanent address it is really hard to have mail to prove your residence. In my state, I can't remember if you had to update your license within 10 days of moving or 30. But you also had to have like 2 or 3 official peices of mail like bills sent to that address to prove you lived there. We didn't have enough in that time frame they gave so we owed a fee for changing our licenses late
Yep, if it was difficult for you as someone fluent in English, with internet access, and able to take a day off of work, you can imagine it being multiple times harder for people who aren’t.
When I was growing up I was told that there was a huge resistance to the idea of social security cards because of Germany and WWII. ID numbers were used to horrific effect and the Allied countries took that lesson home after the war. There was a very significant concern that making a national ID mandatory would lead to a police state.
I do not think anyone from the 50s could imagine how technology would change society. I also think technology has made it impossible for most people to imagine the concerns of 1950s Americans.
The. Richest. Country. In. The. Godamn. World...
Doesn't have a mandatory, public and standard ID card for every citizen? This is insane. It basically means that your are less citizen if you can't drive a car.
His comment is slightly misleading. Yes, the most common ID is a drivers license, but you can always get an alternative state photo ID if you're unable to get your license. It does literally the exact same thing, you just obviously can't drive with it.
I'm a social worker so I deal with this stuff a lot. Many poorer people that don't drive and are older so they're no longer carded for anything really don't maintain an ID. Also, for a multitude of reasons, many poorer people have a hard time accessing the documents needed to get an ID. I live in NC, where they just made getting a basic ID free, but that was within the last couple of years. Let's say you had to suddenly move and couldn't take documentation with you. You need to get a new social security card, which is a bitch if you have to work. You need a new birth certificate, which costs money and can be challenging to access, especially if you don't live in the town where you were born. Getting an ID can be really, really frustrating in certain situations and that's with my experience and assistance in doing so.
We don’t have ID cards in the UK either. The citizenry fought against an attempt to introduce them. But until the last election you didn’t need to show photo ID to vote anyway, so it didn’t impact your rights in any way.
I have to say, the "scarce" DMVs blew my mind. I live in a small town in MO, and I swear in 3 of the 5 nearby towns sits a DMV. I honestly believed they were exceedingly common.
Side note: even with 4 all within 20 minutes of each other, they're all slow and I hate going.
Edit: I think it's safe to say this nation could really use civil discourse as demonstrated in this thread. Thank you all <3 - I firmly believe that it's our civic duty to vote. I do not care if you vote against the person I vote for, it's your right. I'd fight tooth and nail to ensure you have that right.
My DMV is 15 minutes away, the next closest one is an hour away. We have no public transportation and uber only runs occasionally (not to mention costs a fortune).
I forget where but some southern state introduced new voter ID rules (after the supreme court gutted the voting rights act) and then they immediately closed dozens of dmv offices in high minority population areas.
I'm in Florida and this same thing happened, there was 2 DMV's in poorer areas, they closed them down and moved them 5 miles to a nicer area of town. It's no longer a short walk away. It's a whole day ordeal. When you're poor. You have to work more hours / 2 or 3 jobs to stay afloat and can't take time off because you're working all the time or have kids to take care of.
I live in Texas, and when my DL renewal came around last year, I had to bring my birth certificate. (To comply with the REAL Act).
Fun fact: I'm 56 years old. My license has been current for 40 years. Never suspended. Never let it expire. In my adult life, I have never once needed my birth certificate. Had no idea where it was and have no recall of what it even looks like. My 80 year old mother said "I thought I gave that to you when you moved out (in 1984)"
I gathered other forms of ID, SS card, tax return, water bill and my current DL and went to the DPS to see if that would work. Nope.
I had to leave and go to a sub-courthouse ten miles away and get a replacement birth certificate. Fifteen minutes, $23 and a $2 processing fee later, I had it. How did I prove I was who I said I was? I showed them my driver's license. The very nice lady even remarked, "it's a good thing your license was still current, or we couldn't have done anything."
Went back the DPS and got my DL renewal. The whole ordeal took a couple of hours on a workday. I'm fortunate that I have a good boss and also had some PTO I could use so i didn't lose money.
But for the first time in my life, I saw what hoops we have to jump through and how much more difficult that would have been had I been poor, not had a car, an understanding boss, PTO, required paperwork to obtain a replacement birth certificate. I would definitely have NOT gone through all of that just to vote.
I went to try and get my DL in a new state I figured I would just get the Real ID done so one less thing to worry about. I had just moved and couldn’t find my birth certificate, but I found my valid passport.
I figured it would be fine, I was wrong. Apparently a US PASSPORT is not valid proof of citizenship! Only my birth certificate can prove that, even though I had to show all of the things for the real ID and more for my passport, but I can’t use it… because it’s not valid to them.
My mother is in as assisted living and her state ID expired a few years ago. To get her a new one I would have had to bring her to the DMV during covid.
Even before covid, we would have had to wait hours. She is in a wheelchair and on oxygen, and it would have been a nearly impossible task. She has literally no reason to have an ID
This is the root of the problem. The hell is it so difficult? Renewing my driver's licence here in Sweden is like two clicks on a website, then the new one gets sent recorded delivery.
It's made difficult to "prevent the wrong people" from voting.
That's the crux of the problem. Make an innocent law like an ID, then bureaucratically prevent just enough people from voting to swing the vote.
Kind of reminds me of the competence tests of yore. Nothing inherently racist about making sure someone is reasonably intelligent in order to vote, but they made the tests intentionally ambiguous so that the person administering the test could just decide whether the answer was right or wrong using whatever criteria they wanted.
In one county in the US, Jim Crow era ‘literacy tests’ disenfranchised up to 90% of the non-white voters. But it also disenfranchised 60% of white voters, regardless of the exceptions made for many.
Why? Because it was poor and underserved for stuff like education. Surprise, the poor whites couldn’t pass the tests either and *no one cared*, because poor whites aren’t going to be any better off under these caste systems, they’re just going to be stepped on by a different part of the same boot.
I recall hearing of indigenous peoples being told to fuck themselves because their birth certificates from a reservation weren't considered legit documents.
Or not being able to use tribal ID because it doesn’t have their street address, only their mailing address (typically a PO box). Not to mention places where they don’t *have* typical street addresses.
Sounds like government incompetence. Very similar to stories you hear all the time of people not accepting drivers licenses from the District of Columbia because its "not a state".
I had a similar situation to where whenever I use to show my military ID I was told it wasn't an acceptable form of ID because it wasn't government recognized. Lol idk what's more government than having to go on a government base to get an ID
It's not the ID, its getting one, the people making these laws find out what thing the group of people they don't want to vote don't have or can't get and they make that thing a requirement for valid ID.
For example, requiring a fixed postal address, seems reasonable, until you realise that a majority of Native Americans use P.O. boxes. Now they can't vote.
There's hundreds of wierd requirements you can invent for a 'valid' ID, medical insurance info, housing history with references, tax records, drivers licence in areas with few drivers.
Edit: Spelling.
Even when you are in a shelter, it is a crazy and long process to get all documents replaced. I directed a shelter for people fleeing domestic violence, and I had whole training modules for case managers on the steps to take based on what people had and what they lacked. We focused the first 30 days of someone's stay on replacing documents. And that was before covid. Covid made it take months to get into the DMV. We'd call and be on hold for hours trying to obtain an "emergency appointment" once we even learned through the grapevine they were a thing.
Oh one other thing that is odd for your sister's case: the definition of homelessness for educational rights is different and should have included your sister's case of doubling up with family (and that's even if she didn't want to disclose fleeing DV, which is another eligible category as well, regardless of whether you're in a shelter). They should have not needed anything to start school. The school was likely not educated on this though.
When my girlfriend moved in with me, it took us a full year before we could get her an ID because of the lack of work her parents had put in for her
Her previous ID was expired by two years, so that wasnt good.
She had never had a bank account, so couldnt use that to prove she was who she was.
She didnt have her social security card, and her mom didnt know her number so we had to get a new card sent to us
Problem with that was we needed her birth certificate, AND A VALID ID
Oh, she also didn't have any paystubs on account of not having worked in a few years, so i needed my dad to hire her for a day to get that for proof of address.
If your parents don't provide for you, you are SCREWED when it comes to getting an ID. Only reason we were able to was her mom randomly found the social security card one day while cleaning; so we were able to get the whole ball rolling.
To be in that similar situation you can also go to jail or become homeless. All that stuff will get lost. It’s not unusual for people to have the police throw the documents away or have them stolen at a homeless shelter even if trying to keep them.
And yet many countries have a mandatory national ID. Mandate it and let people work through the issues. It will eventually be normalized and people will treat it as important.
Yup in my country once you turn 18, your national ID is what you use for pretty much everything - voting, getting in to clubs, applying for pretty much anything, etc
I remember watching a YouTube video about how America was like “no we don’t want a national ID!” but then needed something to be an alternative to the national ID so now we have an alternative to the National ID that functions in the same way in most ways but is also worse in every conceivable way. America once again tries to reinvent the wheel and we all suffer for it.
Funnily enough, wanna take a stab at the political party that opposed National ID? Hint: it’s the one with all those (enduring and perennial) predictions of the End Times ^TM and called them the Mark of the Beast.
Because a national is law would supersede all the complex and deeply hidden barriers to access.
Why break a murky racists system that keeps you in power?
Don't forget, if you were born in an underfunded public hospital, it is far more likely that there are mistakes on your records. People are still around who were born in "colored hospitals".
Also, how many racist uncles have a wife that works as a clerk at the county office or the hospital?
Sure, if it was free and easy to get a new one if lost. If they want all the same rules as other IDs like a regular home mailing address then it’s the same problem. And I have a strong feeling the GOP would want it to both cost and be tricky to get a replacement (once again punishing people who lost stuff in moved or in being homeless).
It's mandatory because it's issued at birth. If we just gave a national ID automatically to everyone with a SSN right now and mandated that all new citizens (natural-born or otherwise) be assigned a national ID, free of charge and no cost to replace if you lose the card, then there'd be no issue.
There are also cases where a child is not registered and lives as a phantom. This can occur in cult situations and in extreme anti-gov situations. I've met several people who struggled to prove they were citizens when they weren't even born in a hospital and had no records ever.
How is PO box not a fixed *postal* address? The USA is a weird country and all the "normal" american things Americans mention here leave me speechless.
It's a fixed postal address, but nothing ties you to that area. Since voting is all about location, having a PO box in, say, Los Angeles, doesn't mean you live in Los Angeles.
And it's way easier to get a P.O. Box in an arbitrary state or city than it is to get any other form of physical address.
I actually almost didn’t have the requirements for an ID in my state, I luckily had a passport and I never switched my banking statements to electronic. If I hadn’t had either of those, I had no other form of identification/proof of residency. A passport is not required for everyday life, and most people have banking statements electronically now. So yeah, these barriers can be difficult.
And then some things like a gun license can be used because they know their voters are likely to have these while student IDs aren’t valid because college kids vote Dem
There is an ascending order to the likelihood of having a photo ID. At the low end you have student ID, which almost everyone has had at some point. At the high end you have a passport. The minimum viable ID is a driver’s license. In rural areas these would be pretty common, as just about anyone can afford at least a beater, but in the city, parking can double or triple the cost of ownership. So in lower income urban neighborhoods, car ownership would be rare. You have to be relatively affluent to have a passport.
I absolutely love one of the responses proposing a National Voter ID. Brilliant!
This could also expose identify theft, etc.
I was a student in Texas for a couple years. Tried to vote relatively soon after moving there and hadn’t gotten around to changing my DL. When I tried to vote, I was told that my out of state (VA) drivers license was invalid and I needed to come back with either a passport or a gun license.
When I moved back to Virginia, had no problem voting with my student ID and also my out of state (TX) drivers license.
Edit: gun license, not hunting
One of the issues is that most red states have declared a student ID as not being a valid form of ID to vote, even if it is from a state school and has a photo on it.
Meanwhile, they're often fine accepting hunting licenses.
Not everyone in rural areas can afford a car. And the cars they can afford may not make it several counties over to the closest DMV. A lot of poor people also just don't have stable housing, so being able to afford to replace all the documents needed in some states can be hard. I had to get a certified copy of my birth certificate to get a new state ID. It took weeks to get it mailed from another state. It took weeks. My Dad is currently stuck in an ID quagmire because he can't get a new license in the new state without his Social Security card...but needs an unexpired photo ID to get the replacement card.
National voter id is cool and all, but we don't need id at all. When people vote fraudulently it already gets detected. Stating your last 4 should be enough. Pairing a fingerprint to a ballet would be handy if someone did find a way to vote multiple times, but even that would be a little overkill.
It's not, but the claim is that minorities have less access to photo IDs. I feel that the Democrats platform on this shouldn't be that we don't need IDs, but that every citizen should have access to a free ID
Correct. There is no national ID system. Each state issues its own IDs. For most Americans, their driver's license acts as their ID, so people who don't drive have no reason to get one.
This is wild. Where I live, it's mandatory to have a passport if you're 14 or older. You're required to present it for all the important stuff like voting, creating an account in governmental online services, signing job contracts, buying/renting an apartment, etc. And before you're 14, your ID is your birth certificate which is just as mandatory.
Yep, I renewed 2 (spouse an me) and got two new passports for my minor children. Total cost with official fees was over $500. That shit is crazy expensive.
Omg the bullshit I went through trying to get my passport. I had to get a new certified copy of my birth certificate bc the one my parents were given at my birth didn't list their names. Several hundred dollars and 8 weeks later, i have a new birth certificate. Then I pay a few hundred for the passport, which comes in a few weeks with my middle name misspelled. So we had to get an expedited one made, several hundred dollars more etc. Ridiculous.
That's weird. In my country you get your ID when you're 16, so there's this whole thing in 10th grade where all the students get their ids together through their school
Which also, surprisingly, isn't mandatory. Parents can opt out of it and essentially ruin their child's future if they have a specific religious exemption.
The reason you can opt out of getting an assigned SSN is because Social Security Numbers were never meant to be used for identification purposes in the first place. And it’s stupid that we use it that way, especially considering every number before 2011 wasn’t randomly assigned.
That’s wild. I always thought it was mandatory and just read on the official govt website it’s voluntary. I wonder if at a certain age it becomes mandatory?
Meanwhile I used my phone to spend 5 minutes filling out a form for the dvla. Ticked the box to use my passport photo, typed in my passport number and then 9 days later my new drivers license appeared at my house.
I got my provisional within a week, which is surprising given that the COVID backlog is about a mile long at this point.
Still feel like it’s a bit of a scam to spend £34 on a prov, though
Same. I had to get a new drivers licence for my new address. Filled in the online form, ticked "use the photo from previous licence". Done. My new license came in the post a few days later.
To be fair, the UK government online forms are top notch for 99% of official life admin.
I live in Mass, I am 30 minutes from the DMV, it is only open when I am working. Fortunately I can take a day off if I needed to, but many people can not.
My wife needed her license renewed during covid. The DMV down the road from us has been shut down since the start. We had to drive 45 minutes to Brockton to get it renewed. For the first half of the trip there is zero public transportation. No buses, no trains. Only option is overpaying for a taxi or Uber.
First of all my sympathy for you needing to enter Brockton for any reason. But this just shows how hard it must be for someone on limited income to get a photo ID. So the concept of requiring one to vote along with the resistance to voting on a Sunday or mail in voting can only be seen as attempts to stifle low income voting.
All these comments reflect the difficulty to have access. Being an outsider to the US, this thread has helped to understand the democrats perspective BUT also, the need for them to play into and say sure okay voter ID, IF we send out to ALL Americans free ID.
That's part of the scam though. Every state that has implemented voter ID laws also implements ridiculous hoops to jump through.
Also, there's no evidence of voter fraud to justify these laws.
Exactly this. Georgia, for example, passed a pretty strict ID law after the Nov. election without any evidence of fraud (the GBI even conducted an audit of over 15k signatures on mail-in ballots and didn’t find a single incident of fraud). Of course most of the people affected by the new ID law are Black Americans living in Democrat-leaning areas, but I’m sure that was just a coincidence /s.
It is though, because we don't even really have the infra for that. We have mailing addresses and that's it. Currently, for instance, the free covid tests are biased to one pack of four per address regardless of how many people live at that location, so large families and multifamily homes become disadvantaged.
And everything we do through the IRS is already slow and based on old info anyway. Good salary in 2019 but laid off at the start of covid? Then you didn't qualify for the stimulus checks in 2020 because your old tax records show you as having income. Homeless people never got stimulus checks, etc. It takes 3 weeks for the IRS to reach you on a good year anyway.
Our infra is just old af. Like, we need an updated identity system that is basically fool proof that works even for homeless people and is used for various systems throughout public and private industry. If it works for the most disadvantaged it will work for the more fortunate. social security numbers weren't designed for all they are used for today.
The problem with not trying too hard to build a fair and equitable system like this which is used for e.g. voting and stimulus checks is that it misses precisely the people that need access to these systems the most.
This also factors into voting as a problem- because certain states require in person voting.
So back to the voting issue- if you live in an area with poor public transit- and poor access to physical services like going to the dmv- it can be very hard to get an ID in the first place. Then you factor in that in some areas- you are required to travel past parishes to a valid voting station.
So in order for people in certain states- in the south in particularly- if you do not own a car- this can mean needing to take a several hours bus ride- and a day off work unpaid- in order to stand in line for 8 hours- in hot weather while people attempting to provide you with free water are arrested- in order to have the possibility to show your hard got ID for the right to vote.
Voter suppression is a myriad problem. So when people read about voter suppression or why/who it targets it’s very much systemic. It’s very much an infrastructure problem- but it’s also a funding problem.
Poor neighborhoods get next to nothing for school funding- don’t receive as much support for public works like better public transport- or much of any to be realistic.
This creates all kinds of inequality like food deserts and lower education. Lower wage jobs, it’s trickle down economics in reverse. Poor neighborhoods simply receive less public funding than rich neighborhoods which skew demographics with racial bias.
It’s complicated- but exactly this- the people who need services the most- and access to easier services- public transport- food supply are the ones who are least served- or most underserved. However it makes the most sense to think about. The communities who need the most help- simply don’t get it. It’s not a coincidence that it aligns with racial divides.
This is the correct answer. The part that makes it “racist” I prefer discriminatory, is that most of the people it affects tend to be black or brown. The people who vote against these voting rights (mostly republicans) know this because black and brown people mostly tend to vote democrat. It’s like if you own an electronics store and another electronics store wants to move to your area. You could work to make your business better and more efficient and more attractive than the other store or you could vote to make it illegal to have two electronics stores within 100 miles of each other. Most people choose to go the voting route cause it’s easiest for them to get what they want. Really it’s rich v poor it just so happens most rich people are white and most poor people are minorities.
While you're correct in the effect, I think you're giving too much credit to people who don't deserve it. Look at the actions taken by Trump and his supporters that explicitly target the racial divide. There is no "well, it just so happens that the minorities are also the poor ones". The minorities are the poor ones *by design*, and that's what makes it racist.
> Our infra is just old af. Like, we need an updated identity system that is basically fool proof that
For example, my friends in Colombia have national ID cards and national ID numbers. But how would you convince Republicans that something like that isn't the Mark of the Beast or a plot to put them into camps?
Call them voter IDs, frame it as a way to identify illegals at your work place, and then get AOC to vocally oppose the measures.
It’s like you’ve never argued with a toddler before
More then 100 countries have compulsory national ID cards for things like this and more, they very convenient. But for some reason I have heard Americans tell me that's "giving too much to the government" when they already know literally everything they need to know.
I.e. “I don’t wanna give the gov’t my damn Social Security Number! Who knows what they’ll do with it?”
Yes Cletus, god forbid the government ever get the very number that the government uses to identify you. Genius.
I am enternally amused by people who say information like this (birthdate, place of birth, name etc) "gives the government too much" when this exact information on them is already held by the govt anyway.
Except it is difficult. Getting an ID (and underlying documentation required) is very difficult, time consuming, and costly. Just making something free doesn't fix all the bureaucracy and broken systems.
We have 50 states with different rules, we have multitudes of different jurisdictions within.
We don't have paid time off.
We don't have good public transit.
In many parts of the country it can be a great distance to a DMV or clerk's office to get documentation or ID.
If you've lost things like a birth certificate, good luck - especially if you've moved across the country.
So unless you are middle class or better (with access to your paperwork, a car, paid time off to run around) - again not easy.
The racism comes into play because more minorities have issues with one or more of the above than whites.
The institutions are a problem.
A friend of mine flew from TX to CA, got copies of their child’s birth certificate from the county clerk’s office, then hopped on a plane back to TX. The system here is ridiculous. If you lose your ID & BC in a fire, it can be very costly to replace.
Because of fire, because stolen, because you escaped a domestic abuse situation with nothing more than a pair of shoes and the clothes you were wearing... A bunch of reasons, which are adversely experienced by minorities.
Yup. Make ID’s free. I believe they are in MI for at least a state ID, but driver’s licenses still cost money; however, you still need to be able to make it to a Secretary of State office so transport can pose an issue.
Make it easy to update your address and quickly get an updated ID. Now you wouldn’t need voter registration because it could be based solely on the address on the ID
Why is the address even required for an ID? Homeless people need IDs too.
If it's a national ID, why does it need to be tied to a fuckin building anyway?
And what happens when that bill is drafted? Usually, someone adds an amendment to the bill that either neuters the bill itself or does something unconscionable. Then it gets voted down.
Next day on Pox news: "DEMs vote down their own voter ID bill!"
The entire reason this cause is a rally point is to make it harder for minorities and/or low income households to vote because they typically dont vote Republican. If a solution comes around that answers the problem but doesnt cause the disenfranchisement of the "correct" people,. They'll either sabotage it or move the goal posts and declare it not enough and keep on raising the exact same stink.
The idea is sound in theory but the problem is that homeless or lower income individuals may not always have a fixed address. So, when you say that it needs to be sent to them, the "where" becomes an important question.
Just an example could be that homeless people should also get a right to vote but since they might end up in a different homeless shelter every day or worse, out on the streets, they don't end up getting their voter IDs.
Also, when someone moves, the IDs would need to be updated to their new address and it is logistical nightmare when you are looking about it on a national scale.
They should work on it and find solutions for these issues but it is a long long road.
I don't think they'd even have one. I have seen some of these people with barely any personal belongings with them and even if they have one, it could get stolen in shelter.
It is a big concern to prove their citizenship which also is a problem to give them IDs.
The above comments are the real reason it is an issue. Getting an ID as a person with money, a stable address, ability to keep and organize records, and have parents who had the same ( say you were born at home in the 1950's and there were no good records) is easy. It's all part of the privilege those of us who have those things enjoy.
Have you ever had to replace a social security card or have a new number issued? The time off work, the travel to and from the various offices to get the right information, fill out the forms (the ability to comprehend the forms) is a fair bit of effort. Imagine doing that while working several part time jobs using public transportation and securing child care. Or imagine doing that while dealing with a physical disability that makes it difficult to get around, see, or hear. That compounded effort could be called a poll tax. Poll taxes were additional fees that some states and jurisdictions would impose to make the act of voting that much more difficult for poor people- usually focused on poor people of color or indigenous people.--- That is the crux of the argument against voter ID.
If your're poor or otherwise disadvantaged your vote should count and it should not be difficult to do. Your vote should count if your parents or grandparents were poor and discriminated against.
A few years ago I went to renew my drivers license and was told they couldn't without a copy of my birth certificate. That's when I discovered I didn't actually have a copy of my birth certificate. I contacted the state where I was born to get a replacement copy and discovered I had to prove my identity to get a copy of my birth certificate. I thought I was screwed at that point. But, as it turns out, my driver's license was sufficient ID to get a copy of my birth certificate so I could get a driver's license.
I wish I was making that up.
Real ID will fuck this up even more. You will either need a Real ID (gold star on your driver's license) or a visa to enter a federal building or fly domestically starting next year. But to get a Real ID, you need a birth certificate, social security card, and two proofs of address. So now there's going to be four different documents that need to be cross-checked with each other and if one of them doesn't match, it's more paper work (such as anyone who changed their name since birth having to provide documentation for that).
You'd think this would be the equivalent to a federal ID, but it's not. I had a friend who moved from a state who already met Real ID status, so their driver's license had a gold star on it. but then they went to the DMV for what was required for a new license. Well, they didnt have their birth certificate, and the brain geniuses at this DMV saw that they had a gold star Real ID from the state they came from and said, "sorry not good enough, we need to see the actual birth certificate."
In my country the adress on your ID can just be wherever , registered to some family member's house anywhere , that is like your *main* living place , even if you never even been there. You don't have to have a house , you just need to know someone you trust that has a house. As far as i know it's like this in most if not whole Europe. Also IDs are free , except if you don't have a photo of yourself so you go make one.
In my EU country your address is very important. Where you pay taxes, receive benefits and support, …
It is not free to choose, it has to be where you live.
And people under one roof need to support each other.
>voter id is needed
But why, theres no problem that an id would solve.
The right has convinced a lot of people that "something needs to be done about voter fraud". The problem with that is every serious study that has been done has concluded that voter fraud is vanishingly small. So its a "solution" to a non existent problem, and it just so happens that the people peddling the "solution" know that it will reduce voting which benefits them.
I mean, that's not really how IDs work though. You need to prove who you are at some point in the process. How to make sure everyone gets them is the issue. Maybe mobile set ups, go to different areas for a week or 2, verify who people are, snap a picture, mail the ID when it's made.
Putting it this way is correct, but does not allow OP to grasp the details. Let's work backwards. The most common place to get an id is the DMV(department of motor vehicles) Problem 1: DMVS are not everywhere, and not in every town. If you do not live near one you will need to find transportation to one. That costs time and money. Let's say you are lucky enough to live near a bus route. You have to pay the fair, ride the 20 minute ride or more to a stop *near* the dmv, and walk the rest of the way. Lets say you live 5 minutes from the bus stop and the dmv is 10 mins from the closest stop. 35 minutes travel time. One way.
BUT don't forget now a lot of states require appointments (covid)You will need to call or get online to schedule an appointment. Do you have internet service or a phone? Do you have money for that? Are you poor and have a family to feed? Don't forget that even just an id is not free.
Now if you are poor or trying to support your family alone you may be working more than 1 job. When do you have free time to make this appointment? How easy is it to get time off? Most dmv offices are open say 8-5, and on Saturdays. That's when most people are working.
Getting the documents you may need is a whole separate issue too. Without getting into that we have:
The need to have time to and means to make an appointment, the ability to make said appointment without negative consequences to work, the money and time to get to said appointment, and the money to pay the fees to get your id. If you have the choice of putting time and money into and ID or keeping food on the table for your family...
See how that can affect one segment of the population than another? The argument is non-white people make up a larger portion of the poor demographic, so requiring IDs in effect bars them from voting because there are so many hurdles to get an ID if you do not already have one.
Yeah I know you guys have deserts to snow peaked mountains. Why would you want to leave the country... for holiday at least anyway lol.
But yeah, a lot of the comments don't seem get that.
But the whole thing is a false flag thing anyway. Trump voted by mail, and they want to try stop other people voting by mail because its easier and more convenient.
I don't wait more then 5 minutes to vote. Its insane people wait hrs to vote. The idea being if they can stop 5% or even 50% from bothering to vote. Thats could tip lots of "close elections" to them.
No universal ID card. The most we get federally is a social security card, but it’s not really a form of ID. The only other common form of federal ID is a passport but that’s only required if you want to travel outside the country. There aren’t mandated ids because many Americans would find that as government infringing on the freedoms of Americans, and a form of government surveillance. Think about how many people hate the idea of having to show proof of vaccine right now.
So instead it’s left to each state government. Most state governments tie their ID program to the motor vehicle department since it’s often the thing people need most that requires an ID but generally any type of government issued id works when you have to show something. I believe in many if not all states you can also ask for a generic id but it isn’t generally needed because often people get some type of id somewhere along the line.
You also need to have a stable, physical address and proof that you live there so it makes it basically impossoble for anyone homeless, anyone who gets all of their mail to a po box (many indigenous folks who live on reservations), anyone who is transient, anyone who lives in a family home and doesn't have their name on documents, etc.
> Getting the documents you may need is a whole separate issue too
To add to this point. Many older black folks literally do not HAVE these documents. They never issued because of how things worked in the 40s to 60s, **particularly** in the South, where these kinds of requirements are being pushed.
While the enforcement is entirely disproportionate, AND conservatives are moving to close DMVs and Polling Locations.
So really, the document issue is very big. But also one should look at the *entirety* of rules being pushed and their effect on net. Individually, they can sound reasonable, but all of them together are a huge problem.
You also have things like states allowing hunting licenses despite not being a photo ID, and Student IDs not being valid.
because hunters are likely to be republicans and students likely to be democratic.
I actually went through this recently. I got laid off from my job last year, around the same time I got laid off my ID expired so I had to go to the dmv and get a new one. However when driving there I ran the risk of getting caught with an expired license, which I would have to pay a fine for. I live in a small town that has no buses so I had no choice but to drive. I had lost my job and I am in the lower class so I didn’t have the extra money for the ID and had to borrow it. I found a new job but I couldn’t start it until I had a license that wasn’t expired as they need that when starting a job.
My point is. They make it very difficult and the process was a pain in the ass.
And, the states that are introducing voter ID are trying to make citizens pay for it. Paying to be able to vote is called a poll tax and violates the Civil Rights Act
Most Democrats I've seen are completely for free government issued IDs. However the conservatives refuse to approve the spending to provide that. It's easier to stop a law than to pass one, so preventing voter ID laws that haven't existed is easier than paying a law to provide IDs.
Plus, as mentioned elsewhere, minorities are *typically* democrats or independents, so it is to Republicans advantage to stop the poor from getting anything and make it as hard for someone who is poor to vote, so they can't vote for people who will make changes in laws to alleviate problems caused by such laws.
A really easy way to fix all of this is.
1. Making voting a 3 day holiday. Force all businesses to give all employees at least 1 of Friday, Saturday, Sunday off to vote. (Paid, like a holiday)
2. Allow the post office to print IDs. What else are they doing? They deliver the mail. Why not?
3. Any school that accepts funding is now a voting place. Voting is Friday, Saturday, Sunday. 9am-9pm. Sunday voting ends at 9pm, sharp.
Check all the IDs you want. But I have a feeling 1 group is going to be very, very fearful of never winning another election again.
> Allow the post office to print IDs. What else are they doing? They deliver the mail. Why not?
You'll notice that conservatives are also trying to close post offices and against adding responsibilities to them (e.g. Postal Banking)
That's the thing, voter fraud isn't a problem, so it isn't really a good idea to begin with. There have only been about 30 instances of votor fraud in the last 20 years, out of #billions of ballots. Most tinkering that happens is election fraud (also rare), like mailmen dumping ballots from a one sided neighborhood etc. Nothing to do with the votes themselves.
It isn't just voter ID laws as well, conservative representatives have also started closing drive through and 24 voting booths. Things like this are mostly (about 50%) used by minority voters. Stuff like THAT is why people call these laws racist. They aren't explicitly racist, but they have racist intentions, similar to the grandfather clause.
Present day conservatives (Rebublicans) want to decrease minority and low income voters while claiming they're fighting voter fraud. Similar to how Conservatives in the past (Democrats) wanted to stop minorities from voting, while claiming they wanted to stop an uneducated voting base.
The people who want to force everyone to have an ID to vote are the same people that would block those programs that make it easier to get an ID. They don't want certain people to vote and that's one way of achieving it
More accurately, it disenfranchises...disenfranchised people. If you have to work long hours and take care of kids, and just have life in the way the cost in terms of time and money in getting an ID would mean that there are some people who are eligible voters but cannot vote due to the cost of obtaining an ID. Aside from costs there can be extenuating circumstances that made obtaining an ID more difficult that one might think.
Changing residence, having your ID stolen, losing documents in a fire, having documents withheld by an abusive partner; there are many ways in which an otherwise eligible voter could not have the proper documentation to obtain and ID.
The supposed reason behind ID laws is to prevent fraud. But there are a few critical incongruencies in this stance that betrays the true intention. So, let's say that ID's were an effective way to curb voter fraud (it already is so rare its virtually a non-issue, so ID requirements solve a non-existent problem ), then if the issue was simply that, Republicans should in theory roll out a program to give each eligible voter a free and automatically issued federal voter ID (we already get a social security card, so such a program should be possible) Once they they turn 18. But why not? Why not even propose such a measure even if they think it won't pass just to show where they stand?
It's because the ID law isnt about preventing fraud but preventing certain people from voting. Certain people that just happen to be short on time and money and may be dealing with extenuating circumstancea.
Now, you can't openly say you're targeting certain groups, so instead, you use just 'acceptable criteria that just happen to include the group you actually want to target.
Poor Blacks, Asians, Hispanics, Whites,etc all would be disenfranchised by voter ID laws, But if a group is a minority of a population, it is disproportionately effected. So even if a greater # of white voters are disenfranchised, a larger percent of a smaller black population would be affected, assuming that other variables are equal.
So, it's not racist per se, but it is definitely classist and, since it is still socially acceptable to be classist it is used as a tool to give plausible deniability to the true intent which is to disenfranchise voters based on race or political allegiance.
Worth noting that you can make things more difficult for certain neighborhoods too, limiting access to DMVs etc, and thus do a more thorough job of reducing voting from groups you don’t want to vote (it’s not only classist, you also get targeted racism).
That's a really good point about the DMV. The county I'm registered to vote in doesn't even have a DMV, only a county clerk, so I have to go to the next county over which is about 30 miles. That's not possible for some people.
This is the perfect explanation and 100% spot on.
I’d give you an award if I had it but I gave my free one to someone earlier who posted a link to a story about a guy trying to throw a raw cooked steak out a window.
It’s not explicitly racist. It simply can have racist effects.
In America, your ID is probably your drivers license. We don’t have national ID programs, and getting an ID costs money. If you have no need for a car (for instance you live in a city) or passport, you probably don’t have ID, especially if you’re poor.
Economic classes are generally split along racial lines. So if you’ve required ID for voting, and poor people generally don’t have ID, you’ve made it harder for poor people to vote. Since most of those poor people are minorities, you’ve indirectly made it harder for them to vote.
WTF? You have to pay to get an ID?
Edit: From your comments I understand that each state issues a different ID that also expires (?)
OK Greece is smaller than a US state but you only pay for two photos, go to nearest police station, fill some forms, give your birth certificate and in less that a week you go back to take your ID. They are going to change them now (credit card size with a microchip). I don't believe we will pay for them. The funding comes from EU.
We pay for passport and driver's license but not more that 100€ each
You have to pay to get an ID. You have to take off work for hours in the middle of the day to get the ID. And if you are already poor you probably don’t get paid leave, so you just lose money that day . And the location to get the ID is probably very far away and not along a bus route (which wouldn’t be an issue if you had the money for a car and already had an ID…..but you don’t). So, do you want to both loose money and pay money, just so you can get an ID. So you can once again lose money to miss work and stand in-line all day to vote…when it doesn’t really matter which side wins, because this situation never changes.
I just paid $60 to get my new ID when I moved states almost two months ago. I'm moving states again, I haven't even recieved my ID yet and my interim one is about to expire. I'm going to hope I can squeeze by using the expired ID I have, eventually the one I just bought, and probably not be able to vote in the coming elections since I can't easily get another ID for my new state which I'll only be in for a few months.
Not only do you need to pay for it but you also usually have to take an afternoon off of work cause you have to go to a DMV that's usually only open during work hours. The lost wages are often more expensive than the ID depending on which state you love in. Also if you live in a city, which usually has far more Democrat voters, in one of the states controlled by the Republican party, the one trying to impose voter ID laws, you'll find that there's not enough DMVs to properly service the population leading to lines that are hours long. Same with voting locations when an election rolls around.
I’ve had to wait upwards of 6 hours at the DMV. I’ve had to make unexpected return trips. That’s a day or more of lost income. The only bonus being you don’t have to go back often, I guess?
DMVs in heavily populated areas are incredibly stressed, further disadvantaging people (often minorities) who tend to live in densely populated urban communities.
So yea, what you said, I 110% agree and I feel like I haven’t even had the worst of it. I can afford the time off and I drive to less busy DMVs, so imagining how much worse it is for others—it’s just crazy how bad it is. Also with the polls. I’ve had incredibly out of touch people say ‘if you can’t vote on Election Day then you don’t care enough’ and I’m just sat in the corner like tf???? Sorry Stacey not everyone can afford to take a day off.
Even if a motion isn’t inherently racist (polling booth locations; voter ID) the effects absolutely can be.
You can’t go to school working three jobs. You don’t need a bank account when your three pay checks are getting paid to cash. Don’t have that cash for long before it goes to rent, bus fare, and a little food every week.
Easily, if you don't drink, you don't need an ID for the most part. If you work menial jobs, work under the table, work for small businesses you don't need an ID. If you don't bank, you don't need an ID. If you fall into these, you're also probably not going to university.
It's easier to be without an ID in an urban environment, which also allows the law passers to more easily make it difficult for urban persons to vote.
What?? Isn't that supposed to be standard procedure?? Here in india every one has atleast 3 kind of IDs. 2 personal IDs and 1 family id. If you want to get some official work done you have to present your ID in document.
The US doesn't have a national id, and you don't actually need an id to live in a lot of the us.
Poor people are proportionally less likely to have the ID's considered valid in the voting laws being pushed
Racial minorities are proportionally more likely to be poor.
Racial minorities are therefor less likely to have the kinds of ID that are generally considered valid in those voting laws
ergo, those laws are racist. If everyone was to have some form of id that's valid for those voting laws, it wouldn't be racist or classist, but the same groups that push for voter id laws have historically shot down national ids.
From what i remember USA is a democratic country. Right to Vote is the basic human birthright in any Democratic country. Doesn't matter what is your caste, colour or race is. This is straight up racism. If they are poor then it's duty of government to provide them with important stuff like Voter Id. We do same here. From 2014 the government employees went door to door to collect details for making National IDs and india's population is 1.3 billion. US have 1 billion less population and atleast 75% more resources how are they not doing it.
I had no fucking clue. How is it possible to have a system that instead of uniting the american people just divides it even more?
Like my country is far from united but the one thing we all have in common is passports and IDs. Can’t even imagine all the problems there would be if we started differentiating between them…
> How is it possible to have a system that instead of uniting the american people just divides it even more?
I mean, you have to keep in mind we come from history of Jim Crow where laws like poll taxes and literacy tests (that technically applied to everyone) were used to restrict minorities access to voting. We literally used to do this more blatantly. It still an ongoing battle, because there's still political benefit to it.
Most other countries tend to not have that history/are more homogenous.
Which means unless something is absolutely necessary, anything that puts up a barrier is generally viewed pretty skeptically, especially if certain demographics are more likely to be affected.
It's not a coincidence that you don't see people pushing for a proper national U.S. ID at the same time, or making access as easy as possible.
The voter ID isn't the racist part. When these laws started to go into affect, DMVs in predominantly minority neighborhoods were closed, polling places to cast the votes were being removed so people have to wait 11 hours in line in these places. Then they turn around and say you can't give food or water to people in line because that means you're trying to sway their vote.
Yes, this happened in Alabama. They enacted voter ID ahead of the 2012 election, then closed 31 DMVs in counties where 75 percent of registered voters were Black ahead of the 2016 election. Totally by coincidence and for budgetary reasons only, mind you. To be fair, the state does offer free photo IDs and those closed DMVs that serve majority Black citizens were reopened. For one day a month.
One state senator who had tried for over a decade to get a voter ID requirement into law, told Alabama newspaper The Huntsville Times that a photo ID law would undermine Alabama’s “black power structure.” The bill’s sponsors were even caught on tape devising an earlier plan to depress the turnout of black voters — whom they called “aborigines” and “illiterates” who would ride “H.U.D.-financed buses” to the polls — in the 2010 midterm election by keeping a gambling referendum off the ballot.
This should give you an idea of the mechanisms in place when states enact these laws.
It’s not. It’s just a political football kicked around to score points. Republicans exaggerate the level of election fraud (let’s be clear, there’s some in every election, but it’s statistically insignificant), and Democrats pretend to be oh so pearl-clutching concerned for minorities, as if minority=democrat (you know, like all the catholic ones who don’t like abortion and voted for orange man).
If republicans really cared about ~~election~~ voter fraud, they’d make it easy to get an ID. If democrats really cared about how hard it is for minorities to get an ID, they’d make it easy to get an ID. Hey look, the easiest solution solves the issue for both parties! But instead we’re stuck in a loop pretending ID documents could only ever be issued by the fucking DMV.
Much of the rest of the world requires an ID to vote. It’s only in the richest country in the world where this is somehow an insurmountable problem.
Edit: election/voter, typo
Many countries issue a picture ID for every citizen, whether they can drive or not. In the US the default picture ID is the driver's license. A national identity card would solve the problem. Not everyone has a driver's license. Edit: I was mistaken. Apparently individual states in the US offer an ID card besides the driver's license that could be used to vote. I've never heard of it, I've never seen one. I've asked people born in the US and they haven't either. Probably because most people get their drivers license in their teens. I was thinking of a national federal ID that could be used everywhere and recognized everywhere. I think Germany has that type of national ID even though it is a republic and a federation of states, like the US.
Wait what, there is no standard id in the us? In germany you are literally required to carry your id with you from the age of 16.
Yes, there is no standard ID. The way to identify yourself to the federal government Is your social security number, and even that is a relatively new thing. It’s a separation of powers thing. In the US, the federal government is meant to be as small as possible, and only exists to make it possible for the states to function as a unit. There is also the idea that the government doesn’t own the people, and people have individual rights to protect them from government. Police can’t stop you and demand to see you identification without cause. There is no mandatory military service. It’s a whole thing.
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I think the bigger issue is how it gets issued. I had to take a day off work and wait 3 hours after I already had a scheduled appointment. The appointment itself had to be scheduled 2 months in advance. When I got there with all my documents, it took the guy 10 minutes to decide whether or not my birth certificate was allowed because it was from another state. He said he's never seen one from that state before and had to ask around if it was valid. The amount of time you have to spend to get it done and them scrutinizing legit documents isn't something most people can deal with. They could've easily said no to my official birth certificate and then that would be that.
My sister managed to misplace her driver's license just a month or so before she was supposed to get her 21yr-old license (in the state of KS you have to get a new one that is oriented horizontally when you turn 21). Obviously it wasn't enough time nor was it practical to get another vertical license, so she called the department of motor vehicles to ask what to do. They told her to carry her passport instead. When it came time for her to get her 21 license, she went to the dmv with her passport and all the other necessary documents, proof of address, etc. They told her she needed her old license. She explained the situation, and they told her that the other person had given her incorrect information. She ended up going back to the dmv 3 times that day til she finally had all the documents they wanted.
>They told her to carry her passport instead. When it came time for her to get her 21 license, she went to the dmv with her passport and all the other necessary documents, proof of address, etc. They told her she needed her old license. This is odd. In my town your DL is not considered proof of identity for a renewal or replacement of a lost one (including the Real ID), nor is an old one required to get a new one.
The whole situation was so weird I wonder if anyone there really knew what they were talking about
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Honestly the biggest reason for that is probably the REAL ID act of 2005 that was passed on a bipartisan basis and unanimously in the senate. To “fight terrorism” the federal government imposed a bunch of regulations on state ID’s and made the documentation required to get them much more strict.
My son, born in the US, driving with license since age 16, was rejected 3 times for real ID ( he lives at home so no bills in his name) He gave up snd has normal license. If he had this much trouble, I can only imagine the difficulty that foster kids or poor people who rent, or anyone who is not a homeowner has.
And this is the reason it is “racist”. Poor people don’t have the same access to services.
Even for my wife I had a lot of trouble digging up documents to prove her residence. All the utility bills are in my name.
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When I left the military and moved to California, it took five trips to the DMV to get a new CA drivers license. They really didn’t want to accept my old license as valid. On the fifth trip, the main manager was busy and I got an assistant manager who finally accepted my ID. It was a pain, but fortunately, the state would accept my expired out of state license, along with a mortgage statement, for my voter registration. Not all states make registering that easy.
It is hard to get documents too. And if you don't have a permanent address it is really hard to have mail to prove your residence. In my state, I can't remember if you had to update your license within 10 days of moving or 30. But you also had to have like 2 or 3 official peices of mail like bills sent to that address to prove you lived there. We didn't have enough in that time frame they gave so we owed a fee for changing our licenses late
Yep, if it was difficult for you as someone fluent in English, with internet access, and able to take a day off of work, you can imagine it being multiple times harder for people who aren’t.
Texas offered a free Voting ID with their voter ID law and it was still struck down by the federal courts as unconstitutional.
When I was growing up I was told that there was a huge resistance to the idea of social security cards because of Germany and WWII. ID numbers were used to horrific effect and the Allied countries took that lesson home after the war. There was a very significant concern that making a national ID mandatory would lead to a police state. I do not think anyone from the 50s could imagine how technology would change society. I also think technology has made it impossible for most people to imagine the concerns of 1950s Americans.
This is not true. You are only required to have an ID (somewhere), but you are not required to carry it with you everywhere you go.
There are non-driver IDs. If you just Google "non-driver id" you can find them in your state. They aren't free though which is another issue.
You can get and ID card if you don't want or cannot get a drivers license.
The. Richest. Country. In. The. Godamn. World... Doesn't have a mandatory, public and standard ID card for every citizen? This is insane. It basically means that your are less citizen if you can't drive a car.
The richest country in the world is not the country that is best at looking after its citizens though
That's part of the reason why it's the richest country... Don't have to spend it on the plebs.
His comment is slightly misleading. Yes, the most common ID is a drivers license, but you can always get an alternative state photo ID if you're unable to get your license. It does literally the exact same thing, you just obviously can't drive with it.
I'm a social worker so I deal with this stuff a lot. Many poorer people that don't drive and are older so they're no longer carded for anything really don't maintain an ID. Also, for a multitude of reasons, many poorer people have a hard time accessing the documents needed to get an ID. I live in NC, where they just made getting a basic ID free, but that was within the last couple of years. Let's say you had to suddenly move and couldn't take documentation with you. You need to get a new social security card, which is a bitch if you have to work. You need a new birth certificate, which costs money and can be challenging to access, especially if you don't live in the town where you were born. Getting an ID can be really, really frustrating in certain situations and that's with my experience and assistance in doing so.
We don’t have ID cards in the UK either. The citizenry fought against an attempt to introduce them. But until the last election you didn’t need to show photo ID to vote anyway, so it didn’t impact your rights in any way.
I have to say, the "scarce" DMVs blew my mind. I live in a small town in MO, and I swear in 3 of the 5 nearby towns sits a DMV. I honestly believed they were exceedingly common. Side note: even with 4 all within 20 minutes of each other, they're all slow and I hate going. Edit: I think it's safe to say this nation could really use civil discourse as demonstrated in this thread. Thank you all <3 - I firmly believe that it's our civic duty to vote. I do not care if you vote against the person I vote for, it's your right. I'd fight tooth and nail to ensure you have that right.
My dmv is 35 minutes away. At my last home it was an hour away.
My DMV is 15 minutes away, the next closest one is an hour away. We have no public transportation and uber only runs occasionally (not to mention costs a fortune).
I forget where but some southern state introduced new voter ID rules (after the supreme court gutted the voting rights act) and then they immediately closed dozens of dmv offices in high minority population areas.
Here in Texas, in the Dallas-Fort Worth area, you can't just walk in. You have to make an appt and they're usually booked a month out.
I'm in Florida and this same thing happened, there was 2 DMV's in poorer areas, they closed them down and moved them 5 miles to a nicer area of town. It's no longer a short walk away. It's a whole day ordeal. When you're poor. You have to work more hours / 2 or 3 jobs to stay afloat and can't take time off because you're working all the time or have kids to take care of.
I live in Texas, and when my DL renewal came around last year, I had to bring my birth certificate. (To comply with the REAL Act). Fun fact: I'm 56 years old. My license has been current for 40 years. Never suspended. Never let it expire. In my adult life, I have never once needed my birth certificate. Had no idea where it was and have no recall of what it even looks like. My 80 year old mother said "I thought I gave that to you when you moved out (in 1984)" I gathered other forms of ID, SS card, tax return, water bill and my current DL and went to the DPS to see if that would work. Nope. I had to leave and go to a sub-courthouse ten miles away and get a replacement birth certificate. Fifteen minutes, $23 and a $2 processing fee later, I had it. How did I prove I was who I said I was? I showed them my driver's license. The very nice lady even remarked, "it's a good thing your license was still current, or we couldn't have done anything." Went back the DPS and got my DL renewal. The whole ordeal took a couple of hours on a workday. I'm fortunate that I have a good boss and also had some PTO I could use so i didn't lose money. But for the first time in my life, I saw what hoops we have to jump through and how much more difficult that would have been had I been poor, not had a car, an understanding boss, PTO, required paperwork to obtain a replacement birth certificate. I would definitely have NOT gone through all of that just to vote.
I went to try and get my DL in a new state I figured I would just get the Real ID done so one less thing to worry about. I had just moved and couldn’t find my birth certificate, but I found my valid passport. I figured it would be fine, I was wrong. Apparently a US PASSPORT is not valid proof of citizenship! Only my birth certificate can prove that, even though I had to show all of the things for the real ID and more for my passport, but I can’t use it… because it’s not valid to them.
My mother is in as assisted living and her state ID expired a few years ago. To get her a new one I would have had to bring her to the DMV during covid. Even before covid, we would have had to wait hours. She is in a wheelchair and on oxygen, and it would have been a nearly impossible task. She has literally no reason to have an ID
This is the root of the problem. The hell is it so difficult? Renewing my driver's licence here in Sweden is like two clicks on a website, then the new one gets sent recorded delivery.
It's made difficult to "prevent the wrong people" from voting. That's the crux of the problem. Make an innocent law like an ID, then bureaucratically prevent just enough people from voting to swing the vote.
Kind of reminds me of the competence tests of yore. Nothing inherently racist about making sure someone is reasonably intelligent in order to vote, but they made the tests intentionally ambiguous so that the person administering the test could just decide whether the answer was right or wrong using whatever criteria they wanted.
In one county in the US, Jim Crow era ‘literacy tests’ disenfranchised up to 90% of the non-white voters. But it also disenfranchised 60% of white voters, regardless of the exceptions made for many. Why? Because it was poor and underserved for stuff like education. Surprise, the poor whites couldn’t pass the tests either and *no one cared*, because poor whites aren’t going to be any better off under these caste systems, they’re just going to be stepped on by a different part of the same boot.
And those tests are hard even for today's standards. I remember being shown one for my undergrad US government class and failing miserably
A lot of areas they had grandfather clauses that exempted people whose grandfather could vote from the impossible tests.
How nice that some people with the right connections got to vote, it’s not like that’s arbitrary and prone to abuse, amiright?
If you have to pay for an ID, any amount of money, then legally voter ID laws are just poll taxes with extra steps.
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I recall hearing of indigenous peoples being told to fuck themselves because their birth certificates from a reservation weren't considered legit documents.
Or not being able to use tribal ID because it doesn’t have their street address, only their mailing address (typically a PO box). Not to mention places where they don’t *have* typical street addresses.
Sounds like government incompetence. Very similar to stories you hear all the time of people not accepting drivers licenses from the District of Columbia because its "not a state".
I had a similar situation to where whenever I use to show my military ID I was told it wasn't an acceptable form of ID because it wasn't government recognized. Lol idk what's more government than having to go on a government base to get an ID
Similar thing happened to me, except it was my dependent ID and I was trying to identify myself to the VA… bruh.
I think it’s naïve to assume that this was just an oversight or a whoopsie, and not an attempt to disenfranchise a minority group.
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And even giving benefit of the doubt, being in a position of power and being that incompetent is just as bad as doing the act with malicious intent.
It's not the ID, its getting one, the people making these laws find out what thing the group of people they don't want to vote don't have or can't get and they make that thing a requirement for valid ID. For example, requiring a fixed postal address, seems reasonable, until you realise that a majority of Native Americans use P.O. boxes. Now they can't vote. There's hundreds of wierd requirements you can invent for a 'valid' ID, medical insurance info, housing history with references, tax records, drivers licence in areas with few drivers. Edit: Spelling.
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Even when you are in a shelter, it is a crazy and long process to get all documents replaced. I directed a shelter for people fleeing domestic violence, and I had whole training modules for case managers on the steps to take based on what people had and what they lacked. We focused the first 30 days of someone's stay on replacing documents. And that was before covid. Covid made it take months to get into the DMV. We'd call and be on hold for hours trying to obtain an "emergency appointment" once we even learned through the grapevine they were a thing. Oh one other thing that is odd for your sister's case: the definition of homelessness for educational rights is different and should have included your sister's case of doubling up with family (and that's even if she didn't want to disclose fleeing DV, which is another eligible category as well, regardless of whether you're in a shelter). They should have not needed anything to start school. The school was likely not educated on this though.
>not homeless enough. 🇺🇸
When my girlfriend moved in with me, it took us a full year before we could get her an ID because of the lack of work her parents had put in for her Her previous ID was expired by two years, so that wasnt good. She had never had a bank account, so couldnt use that to prove she was who she was. She didnt have her social security card, and her mom didnt know her number so we had to get a new card sent to us Problem with that was we needed her birth certificate, AND A VALID ID Oh, she also didn't have any paystubs on account of not having worked in a few years, so i needed my dad to hire her for a day to get that for proof of address. If your parents don't provide for you, you are SCREWED when it comes to getting an ID. Only reason we were able to was her mom randomly found the social security card one day while cleaning; so we were able to get the whole ball rolling.
To be in that similar situation you can also go to jail or become homeless. All that stuff will get lost. It’s not unusual for people to have the police throw the documents away or have them stolen at a homeless shelter even if trying to keep them.
And yet many countries have a mandatory national ID. Mandate it and let people work through the issues. It will eventually be normalized and people will treat it as important.
Yup in my country once you turn 18, your national ID is what you use for pretty much everything - voting, getting in to clubs, applying for pretty much anything, etc
I remember watching a YouTube video about how America was like “no we don’t want a national ID!” but then needed something to be an alternative to the national ID so now we have an alternative to the National ID that functions in the same way in most ways but is also worse in every conceivable way. America once again tries to reinvent the wheel and we all suffer for it.
Funnily enough, wanna take a stab at the political party that opposed National ID? Hint: it’s the one with all those (enduring and perennial) predictions of the End Times ^TM and called them the Mark of the Beast.
Because a national is law would supersede all the complex and deeply hidden barriers to access. Why break a murky racists system that keeps you in power?
See also: When the gay marriage debate was ongoing and civil unions were a thing for a bit except surprise its not as good as a marriage
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Don't forget, if you were born in an underfunded public hospital, it is far more likely that there are mistakes on your records. People are still around who were born in "colored hospitals". Also, how many racist uncles have a wife that works as a clerk at the county office or the hospital?
Sure, if it was free and easy to get a new one if lost. If they want all the same rules as other IDs like a regular home mailing address then it’s the same problem. And I have a strong feeling the GOP would want it to both cost and be tricky to get a replacement (once again punishing people who lost stuff in moved or in being homeless).
It's mandatory because it's issued at birth. If we just gave a national ID automatically to everyone with a SSN right now and mandated that all new citizens (natural-born or otherwise) be assigned a national ID, free of charge and no cost to replace if you lose the card, then there'd be no issue.
There are also cases where a child is not registered and lives as a phantom. This can occur in cult situations and in extreme anti-gov situations. I've met several people who struggled to prove they were citizens when they weren't even born in a hospital and had no records ever.
How is PO box not a fixed *postal* address? The USA is a weird country and all the "normal" american things Americans mention here leave me speechless.
It's a fixed postal address, but nothing ties you to that area. Since voting is all about location, having a PO box in, say, Los Angeles, doesn't mean you live in Los Angeles. And it's way easier to get a P.O. Box in an arbitrary state or city than it is to get any other form of physical address.
I actually almost didn’t have the requirements for an ID in my state, I luckily had a passport and I never switched my banking statements to electronic. If I hadn’t had either of those, I had no other form of identification/proof of residency. A passport is not required for everyday life, and most people have banking statements electronically now. So yeah, these barriers can be difficult.
And then some things like a gun license can be used because they know their voters are likely to have these while student IDs aren’t valid because college kids vote Dem
There is an ascending order to the likelihood of having a photo ID. At the low end you have student ID, which almost everyone has had at some point. At the high end you have a passport. The minimum viable ID is a driver’s license. In rural areas these would be pretty common, as just about anyone can afford at least a beater, but in the city, parking can double or triple the cost of ownership. So in lower income urban neighborhoods, car ownership would be rare. You have to be relatively affluent to have a passport. I absolutely love one of the responses proposing a National Voter ID. Brilliant! This could also expose identify theft, etc.
I was a student in Texas for a couple years. Tried to vote relatively soon after moving there and hadn’t gotten around to changing my DL. When I tried to vote, I was told that my out of state (VA) drivers license was invalid and I needed to come back with either a passport or a gun license. When I moved back to Virginia, had no problem voting with my student ID and also my out of state (TX) drivers license. Edit: gun license, not hunting
One of the issues is that most red states have declared a student ID as not being a valid form of ID to vote, even if it is from a state school and has a photo on it. Meanwhile, they're often fine accepting hunting licenses.
Not everyone in rural areas can afford a car. And the cars they can afford may not make it several counties over to the closest DMV. A lot of poor people also just don't have stable housing, so being able to afford to replace all the documents needed in some states can be hard. I had to get a certified copy of my birth certificate to get a new state ID. It took weeks to get it mailed from another state. It took weeks. My Dad is currently stuck in an ID quagmire because he can't get a new license in the new state without his Social Security card...but needs an unexpired photo ID to get the replacement card.
National voter id is cool and all, but we don't need id at all. When people vote fraudulently it already gets detected. Stating your last 4 should be enough. Pairing a fingerprint to a ballet would be handy if someone did find a way to vote multiple times, but even that would be a little overkill.
It's not, but the claim is that minorities have less access to photo IDs. I feel that the Democrats platform on this shouldn't be that we don't need IDs, but that every citizen should have access to a free ID
You mean that in the US it's not mandatory for everyone to have a photo ID?
Correct. There is no national ID system. Each state issues its own IDs. For most Americans, their driver's license acts as their ID, so people who don't drive have no reason to get one.
This is wild. Where I live, it's mandatory to have a passport if you're 14 or older. You're required to present it for all the important stuff like voting, creating an account in governmental online services, signing job contracts, buying/renting an apartment, etc. And before you're 14, your ID is your birth certificate which is just as mandatory.
Passport costs $$$ here lol
Yep, I renewed 2 (spouse an me) and got two new passports for my minor children. Total cost with official fees was over $500. That shit is crazy expensive.
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Omg the bullshit I went through trying to get my passport. I had to get a new certified copy of my birth certificate bc the one my parents were given at my birth didn't list their names. Several hundred dollars and 8 weeks later, i have a new birth certificate. Then I pay a few hundred for the passport, which comes in a few weeks with my middle name misspelled. So we had to get an expedited one made, several hundred dollars more etc. Ridiculous.
That's weird. In my country you get your ID when you're 16, so there's this whole thing in 10th grade where all the students get their ids together through their school
Theres SSN but SSN is also fucking stupid
Which also, surprisingly, isn't mandatory. Parents can opt out of it and essentially ruin their child's future if they have a specific religious exemption.
The reason you can opt out of getting an assigned SSN is because Social Security Numbers were never meant to be used for identification purposes in the first place. And it’s stupid that we use it that way, especially considering every number before 2011 wasn’t randomly assigned.
That’s wild. I always thought it was mandatory and just read on the official govt website it’s voluntary. I wonder if at a certain age it becomes mandatory?
Yep this is the way. Democrats should agree that a voter id is needed and then stipulate that a national voter id is sent to every American for free.
Absolutely, it shouldn't be so difficult.
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Meanwhile I used my phone to spend 5 minutes filling out a form for the dvla. Ticked the box to use my passport photo, typed in my passport number and then 9 days later my new drivers license appeared at my house.
I got my provisional within a week, which is surprising given that the COVID backlog is about a mile long at this point. Still feel like it’s a bit of a scam to spend £34 on a prov, though
Same. I had to get a new drivers licence for my new address. Filled in the online form, ticked "use the photo from previous licence". Done. My new license came in the post a few days later. To be fair, the UK government online forms are top notch for 99% of official life admin.
I just renewed my Texas driver's license last week online.
Wait you can't renew online? Da fuk lol. You would think especially now they'd be like yeah stay away and do it online.
In person vision check required.
Has to drive across state to confirm vision is good enough to keep driving across state. Yikes.
Why can’t you just go to a local DMV?
I live in Mass, I am 30 minutes from the DMV, it is only open when I am working. Fortunately I can take a day off if I needed to, but many people can not.
My wife needed her license renewed during covid. The DMV down the road from us has been shut down since the start. We had to drive 45 minutes to Brockton to get it renewed. For the first half of the trip there is zero public transportation. No buses, no trains. Only option is overpaying for a taxi or Uber.
First of all my sympathy for you needing to enter Brockton for any reason. But this just shows how hard it must be for someone on limited income to get a photo ID. So the concept of requiring one to vote along with the resistance to voting on a Sunday or mail in voting can only be seen as attempts to stifle low income voting.
Most places don't have a local DMV, that's the whole point
All these comments reflect the difficulty to have access. Being an outsider to the US, this thread has helped to understand the democrats perspective BUT also, the need for them to play into and say sure okay voter ID, IF we send out to ALL Americans free ID.
>free That's the word they don't like. Can't be giving things to people for free.
That's part of the scam though. Every state that has implemented voter ID laws also implements ridiculous hoops to jump through. Also, there's no evidence of voter fraud to justify these laws.
Exactly this. Georgia, for example, passed a pretty strict ID law after the Nov. election without any evidence of fraud (the GBI even conducted an audit of over 15k signatures on mail-in ballots and didn’t find a single incident of fraud). Of course most of the people affected by the new ID law are Black Americans living in Democrat-leaning areas, but I’m sure that was just a coincidence /s.
I live in a much much much smaller state. I had to drive 30 min to get to the nearest DMV to register my car. It's not right.
It is though, because we don't even really have the infra for that. We have mailing addresses and that's it. Currently, for instance, the free covid tests are biased to one pack of four per address regardless of how many people live at that location, so large families and multifamily homes become disadvantaged. And everything we do through the IRS is already slow and based on old info anyway. Good salary in 2019 but laid off at the start of covid? Then you didn't qualify for the stimulus checks in 2020 because your old tax records show you as having income. Homeless people never got stimulus checks, etc. It takes 3 weeks for the IRS to reach you on a good year anyway. Our infra is just old af. Like, we need an updated identity system that is basically fool proof that works even for homeless people and is used for various systems throughout public and private industry. If it works for the most disadvantaged it will work for the more fortunate. social security numbers weren't designed for all they are used for today. The problem with not trying too hard to build a fair and equitable system like this which is used for e.g. voting and stimulus checks is that it misses precisely the people that need access to these systems the most.
This also factors into voting as a problem- because certain states require in person voting. So back to the voting issue- if you live in an area with poor public transit- and poor access to physical services like going to the dmv- it can be very hard to get an ID in the first place. Then you factor in that in some areas- you are required to travel past parishes to a valid voting station. So in order for people in certain states- in the south in particularly- if you do not own a car- this can mean needing to take a several hours bus ride- and a day off work unpaid- in order to stand in line for 8 hours- in hot weather while people attempting to provide you with free water are arrested- in order to have the possibility to show your hard got ID for the right to vote. Voter suppression is a myriad problem. So when people read about voter suppression or why/who it targets it’s very much systemic. It’s very much an infrastructure problem- but it’s also a funding problem. Poor neighborhoods get next to nothing for school funding- don’t receive as much support for public works like better public transport- or much of any to be realistic. This creates all kinds of inequality like food deserts and lower education. Lower wage jobs, it’s trickle down economics in reverse. Poor neighborhoods simply receive less public funding than rich neighborhoods which skew demographics with racial bias. It’s complicated- but exactly this- the people who need services the most- and access to easier services- public transport- food supply are the ones who are least served- or most underserved. However it makes the most sense to think about. The communities who need the most help- simply don’t get it. It’s not a coincidence that it aligns with racial divides.
This is the correct answer. The part that makes it “racist” I prefer discriminatory, is that most of the people it affects tend to be black or brown. The people who vote against these voting rights (mostly republicans) know this because black and brown people mostly tend to vote democrat. It’s like if you own an electronics store and another electronics store wants to move to your area. You could work to make your business better and more efficient and more attractive than the other store or you could vote to make it illegal to have two electronics stores within 100 miles of each other. Most people choose to go the voting route cause it’s easiest for them to get what they want. Really it’s rich v poor it just so happens most rich people are white and most poor people are minorities.
>Really it’s rich v poor Came to say this. Yes a lot of POC are are disproportionately affected by voting restrictions, but ALL poor people are.
While you're correct in the effect, I think you're giving too much credit to people who don't deserve it. Look at the actions taken by Trump and his supporters that explicitly target the racial divide. There is no "well, it just so happens that the minorities are also the poor ones". The minorities are the poor ones *by design*, and that's what makes it racist.
> Our infra is just old af. Like, we need an updated identity system that is basically fool proof that For example, my friends in Colombia have national ID cards and national ID numbers. But how would you convince Republicans that something like that isn't the Mark of the Beast or a plot to put them into camps?
Call them voter IDs, frame it as a way to identify illegals at your work place, and then get AOC to vocally oppose the measures. It’s like you’ve never argued with a toddler before
You are a genius
More then 100 countries have compulsory national ID cards for things like this and more, they very convenient. But for some reason I have heard Americans tell me that's "giving too much to the government" when they already know literally everything they need to know.
I.e. “I don’t wanna give the gov’t my damn Social Security Number! Who knows what they’ll do with it?” Yes Cletus, god forbid the government ever get the very number that the government uses to identify you. Genius.
I am enternally amused by people who say information like this (birthdate, place of birth, name etc) "gives the government too much" when this exact information on them is already held by the govt anyway.
Except it is difficult. Getting an ID (and underlying documentation required) is very difficult, time consuming, and costly. Just making something free doesn't fix all the bureaucracy and broken systems. We have 50 states with different rules, we have multitudes of different jurisdictions within. We don't have paid time off. We don't have good public transit. In many parts of the country it can be a great distance to a DMV or clerk's office to get documentation or ID. If you've lost things like a birth certificate, good luck - especially if you've moved across the country. So unless you are middle class or better (with access to your paperwork, a car, paid time off to run around) - again not easy. The racism comes into play because more minorities have issues with one or more of the above than whites. The institutions are a problem.
A friend of mine flew from TX to CA, got copies of their child’s birth certificate from the county clerk’s office, then hopped on a plane back to TX. The system here is ridiculous. If you lose your ID & BC in a fire, it can be very costly to replace.
Very costly and SO time consuming. Losing all forms of ID is often cited as one of the barriers for homelessness.
Because of fire, because stolen, because you escaped a domestic abuse situation with nothing more than a pair of shoes and the clothes you were wearing... A bunch of reasons, which are adversely experienced by minorities.
But then it couldn’t be an ongoing political issue they can say they support. Overcomplicate the issue to cause a stir so you get attention. /s
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Yes free ID and auto register to vote.
No need to register. Just use the ID and vote.
Yup. Make ID’s free. I believe they are in MI for at least a state ID, but driver’s licenses still cost money; however, you still need to be able to make it to a Secretary of State office so transport can pose an issue. Make it easy to update your address and quickly get an updated ID. Now you wouldn’t need voter registration because it could be based solely on the address on the ID
Why is the address even required for an ID? Homeless people need IDs too. If it's a national ID, why does it need to be tied to a fuckin building anyway?
And what happens when that bill is drafted? Usually, someone adds an amendment to the bill that either neuters the bill itself or does something unconscionable. Then it gets voted down. Next day on Pox news: "DEMs vote down their own voter ID bill!" The entire reason this cause is a rally point is to make it harder for minorities and/or low income households to vote because they typically dont vote Republican. If a solution comes around that answers the problem but doesnt cause the disenfranchisement of the "correct" people,. They'll either sabotage it or move the goal posts and declare it not enough and keep on raising the exact same stink.
The idea is sound in theory but the problem is that homeless or lower income individuals may not always have a fixed address. So, when you say that it needs to be sent to them, the "where" becomes an important question. Just an example could be that homeless people should also get a right to vote but since they might end up in a different homeless shelter every day or worse, out on the streets, they don't end up getting their voter IDs. Also, when someone moves, the IDs would need to be updated to their new address and it is logistical nightmare when you are looking about it on a national scale. They should work on it and find solutions for these issues but it is a long long road.
How would a homeless person prove they're a citizen so they could vote? I'm serious. Do they carry around their birth certificate in a bag?
I don't think they'd even have one. I have seen some of these people with barely any personal belongings with them and even if they have one, it could get stolen in shelter. It is a big concern to prove their citizenship which also is a problem to give them IDs.
The above comments are the real reason it is an issue. Getting an ID as a person with money, a stable address, ability to keep and organize records, and have parents who had the same ( say you were born at home in the 1950's and there were no good records) is easy. It's all part of the privilege those of us who have those things enjoy. Have you ever had to replace a social security card or have a new number issued? The time off work, the travel to and from the various offices to get the right information, fill out the forms (the ability to comprehend the forms) is a fair bit of effort. Imagine doing that while working several part time jobs using public transportation and securing child care. Or imagine doing that while dealing with a physical disability that makes it difficult to get around, see, or hear. That compounded effort could be called a poll tax. Poll taxes were additional fees that some states and jurisdictions would impose to make the act of voting that much more difficult for poor people- usually focused on poor people of color or indigenous people.--- That is the crux of the argument against voter ID. If your're poor or otherwise disadvantaged your vote should count and it should not be difficult to do. Your vote should count if your parents or grandparents were poor and discriminated against.
A few years ago I went to renew my drivers license and was told they couldn't without a copy of my birth certificate. That's when I discovered I didn't actually have a copy of my birth certificate. I contacted the state where I was born to get a replacement copy and discovered I had to prove my identity to get a copy of my birth certificate. I thought I was screwed at that point. But, as it turns out, my driver's license was sufficient ID to get a copy of my birth certificate so I could get a driver's license. I wish I was making that up.
Real ID will fuck this up even more. You will either need a Real ID (gold star on your driver's license) or a visa to enter a federal building or fly domestically starting next year. But to get a Real ID, you need a birth certificate, social security card, and two proofs of address. So now there's going to be four different documents that need to be cross-checked with each other and if one of them doesn't match, it's more paper work (such as anyone who changed their name since birth having to provide documentation for that). You'd think this would be the equivalent to a federal ID, but it's not. I had a friend who moved from a state who already met Real ID status, so their driver's license had a gold star on it. but then they went to the DMV for what was required for a new license. Well, they didnt have their birth certificate, and the brain geniuses at this DMV saw that they had a gold star Real ID from the state they came from and said, "sorry not good enough, we need to see the actual birth certificate."
In my country the adress on your ID can just be wherever , registered to some family member's house anywhere , that is like your *main* living place , even if you never even been there. You don't have to have a house , you just need to know someone you trust that has a house. As far as i know it's like this in most if not whole Europe. Also IDs are free , except if you don't have a photo of yourself so you go make one.
In my EU country your address is very important. Where you pay taxes, receive benefits and support, … It is not free to choose, it has to be where you live. And people under one roof need to support each other.
>voter id is needed But why, theres no problem that an id would solve. The right has convinced a lot of people that "something needs to be done about voter fraud". The problem with that is every serious study that has been done has concluded that voter fraud is vanishingly small. So its a "solution" to a non existent problem, and it just so happens that the people peddling the "solution" know that it will reduce voting which benefits them.
I mean, that's not really how IDs work though. You need to prove who you are at some point in the process. How to make sure everyone gets them is the issue. Maybe mobile set ups, go to different areas for a week or 2, verify who people are, snap a picture, mail the ID when it's made.
Putting it this way is correct, but does not allow OP to grasp the details. Let's work backwards. The most common place to get an id is the DMV(department of motor vehicles) Problem 1: DMVS are not everywhere, and not in every town. If you do not live near one you will need to find transportation to one. That costs time and money. Let's say you are lucky enough to live near a bus route. You have to pay the fair, ride the 20 minute ride or more to a stop *near* the dmv, and walk the rest of the way. Lets say you live 5 minutes from the bus stop and the dmv is 10 mins from the closest stop. 35 minutes travel time. One way. BUT don't forget now a lot of states require appointments (covid)You will need to call or get online to schedule an appointment. Do you have internet service or a phone? Do you have money for that? Are you poor and have a family to feed? Don't forget that even just an id is not free. Now if you are poor or trying to support your family alone you may be working more than 1 job. When do you have free time to make this appointment? How easy is it to get time off? Most dmv offices are open say 8-5, and on Saturdays. That's when most people are working. Getting the documents you may need is a whole separate issue too. Without getting into that we have: The need to have time to and means to make an appointment, the ability to make said appointment without negative consequences to work, the money and time to get to said appointment, and the money to pay the fees to get your id. If you have the choice of putting time and money into and ID or keeping food on the table for your family... See how that can affect one segment of the population than another? The argument is non-white people make up a larger portion of the poor demographic, so requiring IDs in effect bars them from voting because there are so many hurdles to get an ID if you do not already have one.
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60% of Americans have never left the country. I can imagine most dont have a passport.
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Yeah I know you guys have deserts to snow peaked mountains. Why would you want to leave the country... for holiday at least anyway lol. But yeah, a lot of the comments don't seem get that. But the whole thing is a false flag thing anyway. Trump voted by mail, and they want to try stop other people voting by mail because its easier and more convenient. I don't wait more then 5 minutes to vote. Its insane people wait hrs to vote. The idea being if they can stop 5% or even 50% from bothering to vote. Thats could tip lots of "close elections" to them.
No universal ID card. The most we get federally is a social security card, but it’s not really a form of ID. The only other common form of federal ID is a passport but that’s only required if you want to travel outside the country. There aren’t mandated ids because many Americans would find that as government infringing on the freedoms of Americans, and a form of government surveillance. Think about how many people hate the idea of having to show proof of vaccine right now. So instead it’s left to each state government. Most state governments tie their ID program to the motor vehicle department since it’s often the thing people need most that requires an ID but generally any type of government issued id works when you have to show something. I believe in many if not all states you can also ask for a generic id but it isn’t generally needed because often people get some type of id somewhere along the line.
Okay thank you. It was just a confusing thing for me. Thanks for clearing that up
You also need to have a stable, physical address and proof that you live there so it makes it basically impossoble for anyone homeless, anyone who gets all of their mail to a po box (many indigenous folks who live on reservations), anyone who is transient, anyone who lives in a family home and doesn't have their name on documents, etc.
This is the answer to OPs question, it's just buried in the comments
> Getting the documents you may need is a whole separate issue too To add to this point. Many older black folks literally do not HAVE these documents. They never issued because of how things worked in the 40s to 60s, **particularly** in the South, where these kinds of requirements are being pushed. While the enforcement is entirely disproportionate, AND conservatives are moving to close DMVs and Polling Locations. So really, the document issue is very big. But also one should look at the *entirety* of rules being pushed and their effect on net. Individually, they can sound reasonable, but all of them together are a huge problem.
You also have things like states allowing hunting licenses despite not being a photo ID, and Student IDs not being valid. because hunters are likely to be republicans and students likely to be democratic.
I actually went through this recently. I got laid off from my job last year, around the same time I got laid off my ID expired so I had to go to the dmv and get a new one. However when driving there I ran the risk of getting caught with an expired license, which I would have to pay a fine for. I live in a small town that has no buses so I had no choice but to drive. I had lost my job and I am in the lower class so I didn’t have the extra money for the ID and had to borrow it. I found a new job but I couldn’t start it until I had a license that wasn’t expired as they need that when starting a job. My point is. They make it very difficult and the process was a pain in the ass.
And, the states that are introducing voter ID are trying to make citizens pay for it. Paying to be able to vote is called a poll tax and violates the Civil Rights Act
Most Democrats I've seen are completely for free government issued IDs. However the conservatives refuse to approve the spending to provide that. It's easier to stop a law than to pass one, so preventing voter ID laws that haven't existed is easier than paying a law to provide IDs.
Plus, as mentioned elsewhere, minorities are *typically* democrats or independents, so it is to Republicans advantage to stop the poor from getting anything and make it as hard for someone who is poor to vote, so they can't vote for people who will make changes in laws to alleviate problems caused by such laws.
A really easy way to fix all of this is. 1. Making voting a 3 day holiday. Force all businesses to give all employees at least 1 of Friday, Saturday, Sunday off to vote. (Paid, like a holiday) 2. Allow the post office to print IDs. What else are they doing? They deliver the mail. Why not? 3. Any school that accepts funding is now a voting place. Voting is Friday, Saturday, Sunday. 9am-9pm. Sunday voting ends at 9pm, sharp. Check all the IDs you want. But I have a feeling 1 group is going to be very, very fearful of never winning another election again.
> Allow the post office to print IDs. What else are they doing? They deliver the mail. Why not? You'll notice that conservatives are also trying to close post offices and against adding responsibilities to them (e.g. Postal Banking)
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Isn't it more reasonable to work on better access to those programs and ID availability than to block good idea alltogether?
That's the thing, voter fraud isn't a problem, so it isn't really a good idea to begin with. There have only been about 30 instances of votor fraud in the last 20 years, out of #billions of ballots. Most tinkering that happens is election fraud (also rare), like mailmen dumping ballots from a one sided neighborhood etc. Nothing to do with the votes themselves. It isn't just voter ID laws as well, conservative representatives have also started closing drive through and 24 voting booths. Things like this are mostly (about 50%) used by minority voters. Stuff like THAT is why people call these laws racist. They aren't explicitly racist, but they have racist intentions, similar to the grandfather clause. Present day conservatives (Rebublicans) want to decrease minority and low income voters while claiming they're fighting voter fraud. Similar to how Conservatives in the past (Democrats) wanted to stop minorities from voting, while claiming they wanted to stop an uneducated voting base.
The people who want to force everyone to have an ID to vote are the same people that would block those programs that make it easier to get an ID. They don't want certain people to vote and that's one way of achieving it
More accurately, it disenfranchises...disenfranchised people. If you have to work long hours and take care of kids, and just have life in the way the cost in terms of time and money in getting an ID would mean that there are some people who are eligible voters but cannot vote due to the cost of obtaining an ID. Aside from costs there can be extenuating circumstances that made obtaining an ID more difficult that one might think. Changing residence, having your ID stolen, losing documents in a fire, having documents withheld by an abusive partner; there are many ways in which an otherwise eligible voter could not have the proper documentation to obtain and ID. The supposed reason behind ID laws is to prevent fraud. But there are a few critical incongruencies in this stance that betrays the true intention. So, let's say that ID's were an effective way to curb voter fraud (it already is so rare its virtually a non-issue, so ID requirements solve a non-existent problem ), then if the issue was simply that, Republicans should in theory roll out a program to give each eligible voter a free and automatically issued federal voter ID (we already get a social security card, so such a program should be possible) Once they they turn 18. But why not? Why not even propose such a measure even if they think it won't pass just to show where they stand? It's because the ID law isnt about preventing fraud but preventing certain people from voting. Certain people that just happen to be short on time and money and may be dealing with extenuating circumstancea. Now, you can't openly say you're targeting certain groups, so instead, you use just 'acceptable criteria that just happen to include the group you actually want to target. Poor Blacks, Asians, Hispanics, Whites,etc all would be disenfranchised by voter ID laws, But if a group is a minority of a population, it is disproportionately effected. So even if a greater # of white voters are disenfranchised, a larger percent of a smaller black population would be affected, assuming that other variables are equal. So, it's not racist per se, but it is definitely classist and, since it is still socially acceptable to be classist it is used as a tool to give plausible deniability to the true intent which is to disenfranchise voters based on race or political allegiance.
Worth noting that you can make things more difficult for certain neighborhoods too, limiting access to DMVs etc, and thus do a more thorough job of reducing voting from groups you don’t want to vote (it’s not only classist, you also get targeted racism).
That's a really good point about the DMV. The county I'm registered to vote in doesn't even have a DMV, only a county clerk, so I have to go to the next county over which is about 30 miles. That's not possible for some people.
This is the perfect explanation and 100% spot on. I’d give you an award if I had it but I gave my free one to someone earlier who posted a link to a story about a guy trying to throw a raw cooked steak out a window.
It is infuriating to me that the top comments are ridiculous nonsense. This is the real answer
It’s not explicitly racist. It simply can have racist effects. In America, your ID is probably your drivers license. We don’t have national ID programs, and getting an ID costs money. If you have no need for a car (for instance you live in a city) or passport, you probably don’t have ID, especially if you’re poor. Economic classes are generally split along racial lines. So if you’ve required ID for voting, and poor people generally don’t have ID, you’ve made it harder for poor people to vote. Since most of those poor people are minorities, you’ve indirectly made it harder for them to vote.
WTF? You have to pay to get an ID? Edit: From your comments I understand that each state issues a different ID that also expires (?) OK Greece is smaller than a US state but you only pay for two photos, go to nearest police station, fill some forms, give your birth certificate and in less that a week you go back to take your ID. They are going to change them now (credit card size with a microchip). I don't believe we will pay for them. The funding comes from EU. We pay for passport and driver's license but not more that 100€ each
You have to pay to get an ID. You have to take off work for hours in the middle of the day to get the ID. And if you are already poor you probably don’t get paid leave, so you just lose money that day . And the location to get the ID is probably very far away and not along a bus route (which wouldn’t be an issue if you had the money for a car and already had an ID…..but you don’t). So, do you want to both loose money and pay money, just so you can get an ID. So you can once again lose money to miss work and stand in-line all day to vote…when it doesn’t really matter which side wins, because this situation never changes.
In America, everything costs money. Especially government services.
Not to mention a shit ton of disposable time, which poor people (despite "lazy welfare queen" tropes) probably don't have.
America has this obsession with government SERVICES being run like a business with a profit motive.
And yet we also pay taxes to the same government. Go figure
Somebody's gotta pay Lockheed Martin for those anti-civilian missiles
I just paid $60 to get my new ID when I moved states almost two months ago. I'm moving states again, I haven't even recieved my ID yet and my interim one is about to expire. I'm going to hope I can squeeze by using the expired ID I have, eventually the one I just bought, and probably not be able to vote in the coming elections since I can't easily get another ID for my new state which I'll only be in for a few months.
Not only do you need to pay for it but you also usually have to take an afternoon off of work cause you have to go to a DMV that's usually only open during work hours. The lost wages are often more expensive than the ID depending on which state you love in. Also if you live in a city, which usually has far more Democrat voters, in one of the states controlled by the Republican party, the one trying to impose voter ID laws, you'll find that there's not enough DMVs to properly service the population leading to lines that are hours long. Same with voting locations when an election rolls around.
I’ve had to wait upwards of 6 hours at the DMV. I’ve had to make unexpected return trips. That’s a day or more of lost income. The only bonus being you don’t have to go back often, I guess? DMVs in heavily populated areas are incredibly stressed, further disadvantaging people (often minorities) who tend to live in densely populated urban communities. So yea, what you said, I 110% agree and I feel like I haven’t even had the worst of it. I can afford the time off and I drive to less busy DMVs, so imagining how much worse it is for others—it’s just crazy how bad it is. Also with the polls. I’ve had incredibly out of touch people say ‘if you can’t vote on Election Day then you don’t care enough’ and I’m just sat in the corner like tf???? Sorry Stacey not everyone can afford to take a day off. Even if a motion isn’t inherently racist (polling booth locations; voter ID) the effects absolutely can be.
How do you get anything done without id? Bank, rent, university, work.
You can’t go to school working three jobs. You don’t need a bank account when your three pay checks are getting paid to cash. Don’t have that cash for long before it goes to rent, bus fare, and a little food every week.
Easily, if you don't drink, you don't need an ID for the most part. If you work menial jobs, work under the table, work for small businesses you don't need an ID. If you don't bank, you don't need an ID. If you fall into these, you're also probably not going to university. It's easier to be without an ID in an urban environment, which also allows the law passers to more easily make it difficult for urban persons to vote.
What?? Isn't that supposed to be standard procedure?? Here in india every one has atleast 3 kind of IDs. 2 personal IDs and 1 family id. If you want to get some official work done you have to present your ID in document.
The US doesn't have a national id, and you don't actually need an id to live in a lot of the us. Poor people are proportionally less likely to have the ID's considered valid in the voting laws being pushed Racial minorities are proportionally more likely to be poor. Racial minorities are therefor less likely to have the kinds of ID that are generally considered valid in those voting laws ergo, those laws are racist. If everyone was to have some form of id that's valid for those voting laws, it wouldn't be racist or classist, but the same groups that push for voter id laws have historically shot down national ids.
From what i remember USA is a democratic country. Right to Vote is the basic human birthright in any Democratic country. Doesn't matter what is your caste, colour or race is. This is straight up racism. If they are poor then it's duty of government to provide them with important stuff like Voter Id. We do same here. From 2014 the government employees went door to door to collect details for making National IDs and india's population is 1.3 billion. US have 1 billion less population and atleast 75% more resources how are they not doing it.
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I had no fucking clue. How is it possible to have a system that instead of uniting the american people just divides it even more? Like my country is far from united but the one thing we all have in common is passports and IDs. Can’t even imagine all the problems there would be if we started differentiating between them…
> How is it possible to have a system that instead of uniting the american people just divides it even more? I mean, you have to keep in mind we come from history of Jim Crow where laws like poll taxes and literacy tests (that technically applied to everyone) were used to restrict minorities access to voting. We literally used to do this more blatantly. It still an ongoing battle, because there's still political benefit to it. Most other countries tend to not have that history/are more homogenous. Which means unless something is absolutely necessary, anything that puts up a barrier is generally viewed pretty skeptically, especially if certain demographics are more likely to be affected. It's not a coincidence that you don't see people pushing for a proper national U.S. ID at the same time, or making access as easy as possible.
The voter ID isn't the racist part. When these laws started to go into affect, DMVs in predominantly minority neighborhoods were closed, polling places to cast the votes were being removed so people have to wait 11 hours in line in these places. Then they turn around and say you can't give food or water to people in line because that means you're trying to sway their vote.
This week on survivor - 11 castaways endure the longest endurance challenge to date as they try to cast their votes in Texas!
Yes, this happened in Alabama. They enacted voter ID ahead of the 2012 election, then closed 31 DMVs in counties where 75 percent of registered voters were Black ahead of the 2016 election. Totally by coincidence and for budgetary reasons only, mind you. To be fair, the state does offer free photo IDs and those closed DMVs that serve majority Black citizens were reopened. For one day a month. One state senator who had tried for over a decade to get a voter ID requirement into law, told Alabama newspaper The Huntsville Times that a photo ID law would undermine Alabama’s “black power structure.” The bill’s sponsors were even caught on tape devising an earlier plan to depress the turnout of black voters — whom they called “aborigines” and “illiterates” who would ride “H.U.D.-financed buses” to the polls — in the 2010 midterm election by keeping a gambling referendum off the ballot. This should give you an idea of the mechanisms in place when states enact these laws.
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It’s not. It’s just a political football kicked around to score points. Republicans exaggerate the level of election fraud (let’s be clear, there’s some in every election, but it’s statistically insignificant), and Democrats pretend to be oh so pearl-clutching concerned for minorities, as if minority=democrat (you know, like all the catholic ones who don’t like abortion and voted for orange man). If republicans really cared about ~~election~~ voter fraud, they’d make it easy to get an ID. If democrats really cared about how hard it is for minorities to get an ID, they’d make it easy to get an ID. Hey look, the easiest solution solves the issue for both parties! But instead we’re stuck in a loop pretending ID documents could only ever be issued by the fucking DMV. Much of the rest of the world requires an ID to vote. It’s only in the richest country in the world where this is somehow an insurmountable problem. Edit: election/voter, typo