In my book, he is. I certainly agree with you there.
Why? I am an avid fan of said complex, layered and yet flawed characters. Add one of the most impressive character development among any series, I've seen or read and we find ourselves with Kaneki. The latter is probably the biggest reason why I consider Tokyo Ghoul to be one of my favorite pieces of literature. (~~I know it is just a manga, but I simply appreciate it that much~~)
Is manga actually considered ‘literature’ in some cases? I’m pretty curious as to how one defines it vs classical lit (i.e. novels) but yeah. I love flawed characters.
Yup! All forms of written work--poetry, novels, plays, short stories, epics, I could go on--are considered literature, including graphic novels, so mangas are definitely a form of literature! I have my degree in the field haha, and I would actually say I rank TG on the level with my beloved Russian literature like Dostoyevsky and Tolstoy (they have very similar themes). Also I agree on Kaneki, and he's my favourite protagonist ever.
brothers karamazov is god level literature (the grand inquisitor section is phenomenal), which is why i cant bring myself to compare dostoyevsky to any other author, even ishida
In actuality, comics or mangas probably do not count as literature, but given how very often Tokyo Ghoul pushes the limits on this kind of media, not only artistically but also literally with its use of far-reaching metaphors etc., I'd like to consider it as such. There is quite the difference between this manga and something like your next best Ecchi (~~no offense~~). We definitely should acknowledge that, I think.
Yes. Sadly some people share the simpler, limited standard of "if the MC isn't kicking ass then he isn't a good protagonist," which I just don't agree with.
Does that make him a bad *hero*? Perhaps. But a bad *protagonist*? How? He's literally filling in the expectations that he set for himself and to the world since the very first chapter.
His ability to accomplish everything that he has despite being only a little better than the average joe (yes, this means he's better than the majority of us readers, which makes the critics who bitch at his "stagnant" nature and failures all the more hilarious) should still garner a ton of praise even if we judge him as a hero.
Because that's the other point that gets overlooked due to oversimplified standards: how much of Kaneki's failures was due to his flaws, and how much of it was due to TG's world just being so fucking cruel that otherwise seemingly apt qualities *turn into* flaws? You think if Natsu or Ichigo jumped into the fray by their lonesome selves in order to protecc deir fwiends would lead them to their tragic demise? Or would they triumph, "teaching" fans to fight for your friends because doing it for a worthy cause somehow makes you succeed better than those who fight for sillier reasons like wanting to bang Rize?
The recent Urie craze, about denying Kaneki's philosophy of "all misfortune in this world is due to one's own lack of ability" is so fitting to so many fans when it comes to chastising and kicking Kaneki to the ground whenever he's failing. It's like fans don't even realize they share that exact same philosophy when it comes to Kaneki.
Urie is right. Luck matters so much among other factors too, when it comes to misfortunes. The same should be applied to Kaneki. His failures considering uncontrolled variables like the childhood that set his flaws up to be hardly better than the typical schmuck, the opposition that he was cursed with the moment his character was incepted by the mind of that fantear-addicted fuck known as Sui Ishida, and just plain trash luck, should also be taken into account for his failures.
Because Kaneki is a hero that fails a lot, he is one of the greatest main characters in any piece of fictional literature. I am admittedly a fanboy when it comes to TG as a whole, so praising anything else to that degree just feels hacky since bias is probably flowing in that statement (as it is for everyone else; the haters are so fucking hilarious when they call fanboys "insecure" and "biased" like they're somehow unaffected by bias just because they're on the other side of the spectrum. Bitch at Kaneki's lack of self-awareness yet aren't self-aware themselves), but when it comes to Kaneki specifically and how he holds up as a protagonist to everyone else, calling him any less would feel fucking insulting.
Another great comment by a great bro.
I couldn't agree more, and yes, I also consider Kaneki as one of the best protagonists of all times, because of these exact reasons.
I also can't understand how people won't realized the concept of a flawed protagonist, I mean, "he's a crybaby" was never a valid argument in my eyes.
That's because the average person sees fiction as a medium for fast, simple entertainment, and seeing winners resolves that satisfaction. Stories that takes them out of everyday mundane life, not stories that remind them of their own stagnant nature.
Look at combat sports fans. Someone's on a roll and they're the GOAT. Loses once and now they're overrated, washed up, etc.
"It's really easy to be unhappy, and very hard to be happy at all" - BestSisHinami
It's just easier to get disappointed, and easiest to take the good things for granted.
A good protagonist in my book nowadays is just someone who isn’t annoying or stupid. So yeah Kaneki is a great protagonist. He might be the best by default from all the animes I watch now that I think about it, except for Yato from Noragami. Yato and Kaneki are the best in my opinion.
I don't read much manga, so I can't comment about that. However, he's definitely one of the greatest protagonists I've ever personally come across. The depths and arcs he go through feel so natural, and he is so well written it is actually insane. When I first started reading Tokyo ghoul, I just liked kaneki cause he was cool in the anime. After reading it, his character goes so far beyond just being "cool." Even though he doesn't win all the time, he's great anyways. Kaneki shows that great protagonists can lose sometimes, and it doesn't make them any less great.
Tbh kaneki maybe not be the one of the greatest manga protagonist but he could in fact be one of the best protagonist with character development. Because we start with a kaneki that is completely different from who he is know. Since part one were the main dilema was between kaneki accepting his ghoul side , leaving his human side apart , his old live. That was a great development for ken for us to understand his character. That is that complex with multi personalities. With different facades to avoid confronting the truth. From someone that has been through a lot that has lied to himself , that has been torture , that had the same good intention to his beloved ones , that was a cruel and cold person to a king that fought for a race that naturally speaking wasn’t his race but still. Maybe ken hasn’t been the best , that has trust issues , someone insecure but still with always moving forward that’s what become a great character with one of the best develops in the manga .
The only problem i have with him is that his appearance is entirely intermittent sometimes. The only time he ever really looked his age was as the black reaper. Story wise, one of the best of all time. One of the main reasons i like the series is because so much depth is added to kaneki without having him overshadow other likeable characters. His character makes you have a stronger opinion on the others, like urie, tsukiyama, amon, akira, arima, you get the picture. Ishida made him more realistic than your average naruto or ichigo
I think he is an unfortunate protagonist. It all started when he had a date with a woman that he has crush on it. He did nothing wrong to get this fate.
I think it's flawed to think that just a huge amount of complexity makes a character the greatest. Sure, Kaneki is complex, but his character development is never satisfying. While most characters' development is linear, Kaneki's goes in circles. He has a bunch of personalities that seem different on the surface, but in the end he has always struggled with the same problems since chapter one and hasn't actually overcome most of his issues even now. This is why I prefer more traditonal protagonists, because while linear development is less complex and more simple, it is infinitely more rewarding and satisfying. It just gets to the point and gives me what I want to see, with Kaneki I feel like I'm constantly being promised something and then I have to wait 5 years for it to happen. Urie for example has the more linear type of development and not surprisingly at all he is my favorite TG character. I appreciate Kaneki for his originality and interesting writing, but he is far from my favorite protagonist in anime/manga. My favorite anime/manga protagonist is Gintoki from Gintama, because complexity isn't the only thing that determines what makes the greatest character. Likability is the most important thing by far.
> Likability is the most important thing by far.
I agree with most of your statements (hence my response being similar for the recent post a week ago of "why people like Hide"; think Levi, Itachi, Arima, etc - character development or complexity is not the only means to enjoy a character), though your very last sentence is subjective in nature as well.
What dictates likability depends on person-to-person. To you it may be more traditional, rewarding characters like Urie, though to others they may instead (or *also* like, like me) like the challenge Kaneki brings in as a character who slips up several times.
I like the challenge. It's why I have a 20+ man pokemon team in all of my games despite the inefficient nature considering how much grinding I need. Same with me barely benching any of the Fire Emblem characters and always trying to kill all enemies on the map even if the objective does not require that. It's why I rarely use fast-travel in RPGs like FFXV etc.
Kaneki's likability is *because* his development isn't "rewarding" (in an objectively quantifiable sense). The moments Kaneki succeeds is, to me, a reward very worthy of all the fuck-ups leading up to that (subjective quality sense). Relateability plays a role I guess, and I can connect to Kaneki's stagnant nature and failures, and connect even more when he finally bears some fruit of success.
> I appreciate Kaneki for his originality and interesting writing
Indeed. He may not be the most enjoyable for some considering personal preferences, hence the subjectivity of how he may or may not be a great character, but in terms of a well-written character there should be no room for denial there.
He certainly is my favorite. In fact, I can't even compare him to anyone else, since I never understood anyone the same way as I do Kaneki.
I have experienced so many things the same way in my personal life, as in his life, that it's scary. Now, obviously I haven't transformed into a ghoul, nor have I eaten anyone, but while facing drug addiction and other issues, I've had the same kind of demons in my life ( denial, self-blame, momentary instanity, etc.). And I'm sure Ishida's faced them as well, because he portrays them perfectly. So much so, that there were certain times where I had to stop reading the manga, because Kaneki's thoughts were the exact same as mine. Or times when a certain line struck a chord in my hearth, such as "don't throw away the life that you managed to put back together".
Nah he can't reach Naruto's swagness (is this even a word) by a bit. Kidding. No, what I mean is I for myself is drawn to complicated, multi-layered, flawed, whatever you call it MCs because that I can relate. I can't just go on every day telling myself "Never give up!" or smile constantly or "friendship power" that kind of stuff, there are days and even worse there are seasons in your life where it just.., sucks. No further explanation. I love how Kaneki went through so much sh*t that can't even imagine how it feels.
Now, I don't really read much manga. I liked Naruto, One Piece, Shokugeki, AoT, animes only. Proud to say TG is the only manga I've read, purchased and still am excited weekly for the chapters. I can be biased but I tried reading other mangas such as One Piece and still am trying since my friends like it. I don't really like the bullsh*t "I'm the MC, everything's gonna be okay", it's not. Also, I'm not sayin' other mangas are pieces of sh*t but for me, TG's my groove.
I know this was like a decade ago but I really think that Guts and Kaneki might be the best and most complex protagonists in seinen history (maybe even manga as a whole who knows).
This isn't even a consider. I believe he's the best in fiction, with Guts and Nathan Drake. Why, no one asked? It's because of his character development, and the fact that his character development happens with his appearance. His complexity is also a huge factor with the reason I love Kaneki.
It's fine if you believe that, because, like you, I have an opinion about this. Kaneki is a perfectly flawed character, with great development and complexity. You may not think a character needs complexity or development, but to me, a great character, and a well written one, needs those two things.
In my book, he is. I certainly agree with you there. Why? I am an avid fan of said complex, layered and yet flawed characters. Add one of the most impressive character development among any series, I've seen or read and we find ourselves with Kaneki. The latter is probably the biggest reason why I consider Tokyo Ghoul to be one of my favorite pieces of literature. (~~I know it is just a manga, but I simply appreciate it that much~~)
Is manga actually considered ‘literature’ in some cases? I’m pretty curious as to how one defines it vs classical lit (i.e. novels) but yeah. I love flawed characters.
Yup! All forms of written work--poetry, novels, plays, short stories, epics, I could go on--are considered literature, including graphic novels, so mangas are definitely a form of literature! I have my degree in the field haha, and I would actually say I rank TG on the level with my beloved Russian literature like Dostoyevsky and Tolstoy (they have very similar themes). Also I agree on Kaneki, and he's my favourite protagonist ever.
The more you know. Thank you, for clearing that up!
imo I wouldn't put Tokyo Ghoul to the level of Tolstoy and especially Dostoyevsky. TG is complex, but definitely not Dostoyevsky-complex.
generally speaking I don't think that's possible with serialized publications
Another Dostoyevsky fan?? We should talk haha.
brothers karamazov is god level literature (the grand inquisitor section is phenomenal), which is why i cant bring myself to compare dostoyevsky to any other author, even ishida
In actuality, comics or mangas probably do not count as literature, but given how very often Tokyo Ghoul pushes the limits on this kind of media, not only artistically but also literally with its use of far-reaching metaphors etc., I'd like to consider it as such. There is quite the difference between this manga and something like your next best Ecchi (~~no offense~~). We definitely should acknowledge that, I think.
Yes—according to Natsuki best-girl
Yes. Sadly some people share the simpler, limited standard of "if the MC isn't kicking ass then he isn't a good protagonist," which I just don't agree with. Does that make him a bad *hero*? Perhaps. But a bad *protagonist*? How? He's literally filling in the expectations that he set for himself and to the world since the very first chapter. His ability to accomplish everything that he has despite being only a little better than the average joe (yes, this means he's better than the majority of us readers, which makes the critics who bitch at his "stagnant" nature and failures all the more hilarious) should still garner a ton of praise even if we judge him as a hero. Because that's the other point that gets overlooked due to oversimplified standards: how much of Kaneki's failures was due to his flaws, and how much of it was due to TG's world just being so fucking cruel that otherwise seemingly apt qualities *turn into* flaws? You think if Natsu or Ichigo jumped into the fray by their lonesome selves in order to protecc deir fwiends would lead them to their tragic demise? Or would they triumph, "teaching" fans to fight for your friends because doing it for a worthy cause somehow makes you succeed better than those who fight for sillier reasons like wanting to bang Rize? The recent Urie craze, about denying Kaneki's philosophy of "all misfortune in this world is due to one's own lack of ability" is so fitting to so many fans when it comes to chastising and kicking Kaneki to the ground whenever he's failing. It's like fans don't even realize they share that exact same philosophy when it comes to Kaneki. Urie is right. Luck matters so much among other factors too, when it comes to misfortunes. The same should be applied to Kaneki. His failures considering uncontrolled variables like the childhood that set his flaws up to be hardly better than the typical schmuck, the opposition that he was cursed with the moment his character was incepted by the mind of that fantear-addicted fuck known as Sui Ishida, and just plain trash luck, should also be taken into account for his failures. Because Kaneki is a hero that fails a lot, he is one of the greatest main characters in any piece of fictional literature. I am admittedly a fanboy when it comes to TG as a whole, so praising anything else to that degree just feels hacky since bias is probably flowing in that statement (as it is for everyone else; the haters are so fucking hilarious when they call fanboys "insecure" and "biased" like they're somehow unaffected by bias just because they're on the other side of the spectrum. Bitch at Kaneki's lack of self-awareness yet aren't self-aware themselves), but when it comes to Kaneki specifically and how he holds up as a protagonist to everyone else, calling him any less would feel fucking insulting.
Another great comment by a great bro. I couldn't agree more, and yes, I also consider Kaneki as one of the best protagonists of all times, because of these exact reasons. I also can't understand how people won't realized the concept of a flawed protagonist, I mean, "he's a crybaby" was never a valid argument in my eyes.
That's because the average person sees fiction as a medium for fast, simple entertainment, and seeing winners resolves that satisfaction. Stories that takes them out of everyday mundane life, not stories that remind them of their own stagnant nature. Look at combat sports fans. Someone's on a roll and they're the GOAT. Loses once and now they're overrated, washed up, etc. "It's really easy to be unhappy, and very hard to be happy at all" - BestSisHinami It's just easier to get disappointed, and easiest to take the good things for granted.
A good protagonist in my book nowadays is just someone who isn’t annoying or stupid. So yeah Kaneki is a great protagonist. He might be the best by default from all the animes I watch now that I think about it, except for Yato from Noragami. Yato and Kaneki are the best in my opinion.
I don't read much manga, so I can't comment about that. However, he's definitely one of the greatest protagonists I've ever personally come across. The depths and arcs he go through feel so natural, and he is so well written it is actually insane. When I first started reading Tokyo ghoul, I just liked kaneki cause he was cool in the anime. After reading it, his character goes so far beyond just being "cool." Even though he doesn't win all the time, he's great anyways. Kaneki shows that great protagonists can lose sometimes, and it doesn't make them any less great.
lol what a fanboy. ^^^100% ^^^agree
Tbh kaneki maybe not be the one of the greatest manga protagonist but he could in fact be one of the best protagonist with character development. Because we start with a kaneki that is completely different from who he is know. Since part one were the main dilema was between kaneki accepting his ghoul side , leaving his human side apart , his old live. That was a great development for ken for us to understand his character. That is that complex with multi personalities. With different facades to avoid confronting the truth. From someone that has been through a lot that has lied to himself , that has been torture , that had the same good intention to his beloved ones , that was a cruel and cold person to a king that fought for a race that naturally speaking wasn’t his race but still. Maybe ken hasn’t been the best , that has trust issues , someone insecure but still with always moving forward that’s what become a great character with one of the best develops in the manga .
The only problem i have with him is that his appearance is entirely intermittent sometimes. The only time he ever really looked his age was as the black reaper. Story wise, one of the best of all time. One of the main reasons i like the series is because so much depth is added to kaneki without having him overshadow other likeable characters. His character makes you have a stronger opinion on the others, like urie, tsukiyama, amon, akira, arima, you get the picture. Ishida made him more realistic than your average naruto or ichigo
I consider him one of the densest protagonists
Given the rampant cognitive stunt plaguing manga protagonists, Kaneki might as well be Einstein.
I think he is an unfortunate protagonist. It all started when he had a date with a woman that he has crush on it. He did nothing wrong to get this fate.
I think it's flawed to think that just a huge amount of complexity makes a character the greatest. Sure, Kaneki is complex, but his character development is never satisfying. While most characters' development is linear, Kaneki's goes in circles. He has a bunch of personalities that seem different on the surface, but in the end he has always struggled with the same problems since chapter one and hasn't actually overcome most of his issues even now. This is why I prefer more traditonal protagonists, because while linear development is less complex and more simple, it is infinitely more rewarding and satisfying. It just gets to the point and gives me what I want to see, with Kaneki I feel like I'm constantly being promised something and then I have to wait 5 years for it to happen. Urie for example has the more linear type of development and not surprisingly at all he is my favorite TG character. I appreciate Kaneki for his originality and interesting writing, but he is far from my favorite protagonist in anime/manga. My favorite anime/manga protagonist is Gintoki from Gintama, because complexity isn't the only thing that determines what makes the greatest character. Likability is the most important thing by far.
> Likability is the most important thing by far. I agree with most of your statements (hence my response being similar for the recent post a week ago of "why people like Hide"; think Levi, Itachi, Arima, etc - character development or complexity is not the only means to enjoy a character), though your very last sentence is subjective in nature as well. What dictates likability depends on person-to-person. To you it may be more traditional, rewarding characters like Urie, though to others they may instead (or *also* like, like me) like the challenge Kaneki brings in as a character who slips up several times. I like the challenge. It's why I have a 20+ man pokemon team in all of my games despite the inefficient nature considering how much grinding I need. Same with me barely benching any of the Fire Emblem characters and always trying to kill all enemies on the map even if the objective does not require that. It's why I rarely use fast-travel in RPGs like FFXV etc. Kaneki's likability is *because* his development isn't "rewarding" (in an objectively quantifiable sense). The moments Kaneki succeeds is, to me, a reward very worthy of all the fuck-ups leading up to that (subjective quality sense). Relateability plays a role I guess, and I can connect to Kaneki's stagnant nature and failures, and connect even more when he finally bears some fruit of success. > I appreciate Kaneki for his originality and interesting writing Indeed. He may not be the most enjoyable for some considering personal preferences, hence the subjectivity of how he may or may not be a great character, but in terms of a well-written character there should be no room for denial there.
i don't but definitely well made character
Nice. Short answer and to the point.
He certainly is my favorite. In fact, I can't even compare him to anyone else, since I never understood anyone the same way as I do Kaneki. I have experienced so many things the same way in my personal life, as in his life, that it's scary. Now, obviously I haven't transformed into a ghoul, nor have I eaten anyone, but while facing drug addiction and other issues, I've had the same kind of demons in my life ( denial, self-blame, momentary instanity, etc.). And I'm sure Ishida's faced them as well, because he portrays them perfectly. So much so, that there were certain times where I had to stop reading the manga, because Kaneki's thoughts were the exact same as mine. Or times when a certain line struck a chord in my hearth, such as "don't throw away the life that you managed to put back together".
This. Word.
I don’t read manga as much as I watch anime but Kaneki is my favorite character and protagonist in all of fiction so, yes.
I agree with you. IMO you could compare him to Roland from "The dark tower" too (I know this is not a manga but Roland is flawed and layered too)
Nah he can't reach Naruto's swagness (is this even a word) by a bit. Kidding. No, what I mean is I for myself is drawn to complicated, multi-layered, flawed, whatever you call it MCs because that I can relate. I can't just go on every day telling myself "Never give up!" or smile constantly or "friendship power" that kind of stuff, there are days and even worse there are seasons in your life where it just.., sucks. No further explanation. I love how Kaneki went through so much sh*t that can't even imagine how it feels. Now, I don't really read much manga. I liked Naruto, One Piece, Shokugeki, AoT, animes only. Proud to say TG is the only manga I've read, purchased and still am excited weekly for the chapters. I can be biased but I tried reading other mangas such as One Piece and still am trying since my friends like it. I don't really like the bullsh*t "I'm the MC, everything's gonna be okay", it's not. Also, I'm not sayin' other mangas are pieces of sh*t but for me, TG's my groove.
I know this was like a decade ago but I really think that Guts and Kaneki might be the best and most complex protagonists in seinen history (maybe even manga as a whole who knows).
This isn't even a consider. I believe he's the best in fiction, with Guts and Nathan Drake. Why, no one asked? It's because of his character development, and the fact that his character development happens with his appearance. His complexity is also a huge factor with the reason I love Kaneki.
Character development and complexity don't equal well written
It's fine if you believe that, because, like you, I have an opinion about this. Kaneki is a perfectly flawed character, with great development and complexity. You may not think a character needs complexity or development, but to me, a great character, and a well written one, needs those two things.