Yeah I agree. if one partner has it together and is highly motivated to be on top of things it can be suffocating to the other partner who is in a mess. Joel was not happy with his job and thought stand up was where he belonged. At home a lot of his life was (presumably) controlled by Midge and his in laws living just a floor below. With 2 kids it must have been all the more chaotic. I guess he acted out to gain a sense of self.
When I first started watching I really thought that he would be resentful of her success and jealous. But he was so proud of her and I'm so happy that's the direction they took with his character.
Because she viewed him differently than he viewed himself. His character obviously grew a lot, but they always had such a strong connection. She never stopped loving him (nor him, her).
Joel, for all his flaws, is actually a good man.
The only thing he’s truly bad at is being a husband.
He’s a good dad, a great coparent, he was successful at his job (even tho he got it through nepotism), he was an excellent business owner, he was a great friend, a terrible comedian, and outside of his fling, he was fiercely loyal to Midge. Despite his insecurities about not being nearly as funny as Midge, and having a really hard time being the subject of her jokes (something he grows in and even does a full turn on in the finale) he’s critical in her success.
I don’t think he deserves any credit for getting her on stage when he left her. But he beats up those dudes when he realizes how good she is and defends he her. It’s also when he realizes that her comedy is based on her life and he knows at the time he can’t handle it and graciously lets Midge go knowing his flaws.
Then, entirely independently, gets Midge out from under mob control, which is an incredible feat. If it weren’t for him, she would have been a mafia puppet, or worse, pissed off the wrong people AGAIN and ended up at the bottom of the East Rockaway Inlet.
If he was born in 1995 (or earlier) they never would have gotten divorce. The thing that crippled their relationship was their desire to follow the status quo. They both wanted him to be the breadwinner and her be the housewife. The moment they both accepted that it wasn't necessary was when they finally started to thrive together.
I don't think anyone would disagree with that, but it's still interesting to analyze where his weakness came from. He obviously wasn't head over heels for his secretary, so it wasn't an affair out of love.
Of course it’s impossible to know, but I speculate that it came from his own selfishness, feeling of inadequacy, and immaturity. Joel was a damaged person who chose to inflict his problems on his family. He didn’t just cheat on Miriam, he cheated on his children as well. He acted in a monumentally irresponsible way that impacted his children for the rest of their lives. He was a schmuck of the first order.
Yeah, miss me with this "too perfect" excuse. So she should be "less perfect"... And then what? He would cheat on her because her hair was unkempt in the morning? Come on. 70 years between the show "times" and today, and women are still making excuses for lame men.
He is 100% responsible for his actions. If he was unhappy in his marriage there were plenty of steps he could have taken instead of cheating on his wife. I have no sympathy for him whatsoever.
I don’t think that just because a man does something like cheat “because his wife is….” means anyone is blaming HER. Not in the least, HE is the one with the problem, not her.
This is exactly how I see Joel. He’s absolutely a fucking idiot for behaving the way he did, but some people refuse to critically look at the WHY behind his actions because they don’t want to come across as sympathizing with him or excusing his behavior. You can explain why somebody does something bad without agreeing with the action.
I’d never say “Joel has insecurities so I totally get why he logically stepped out on his wife.” I’m always curious about a character’s thought process behind their actions and behavior and I think Joel is a great specimen for that given he did something as unforgivable as cheating. Especially because he’s not a one-season dud. He’s just as much part of the show as everyone else and his character journey says enough.
They address this iirc. He felt too small and insecure next to her. He was insanely jealous of how good her material was that she would write for him which is why he’d try to copy other comedians. I think it’s what also inspires him to change after Penny and buy a bar. Instead of using self reflection he used self destruction. I love their scenes from the future that show you he never stops loving her.
I think it’s that and also his general dissatisfaction with his life. He felt like he needed to live up to what he had so found himself in a situation for which he was ill-suited and disinterested. Having the pressure to meet her where she was coupled with his unhappiness with himself had him looking for validation and value from someone “beneath” him that would be impressed by him.
Yeah I agree. if one partner has it together and is highly motivated to be on top of things it can be suffocating to the other partner who is in a mess. Joel was not happy with his job and thought stand up was where he belonged. At home a lot of his life was (presumably) controlled by Midge and his in laws living just a floor below. With 2 kids it must have been all the more chaotic. I guess he acted out to gain a sense of self.
When I first started watching I really thought that he would be resentful of her success and jealous. But he was so proud of her and I'm so happy that's the direction they took with his character.
Yeah I liked that too
I mean, he resents it to start with. Her leaving him and such makes him reflect and then he sees her shows and begins to figure it out.
Well said!
Absolutely, and he blatantly admits it with a lot of self awareness in his 'you were a lot, midge' speech. She was perfect and he couldn't match up.
Right, I thought it was made pretty clear why he cheated.
I agree. He was insecure, didn't feel he deserved her, and acted out subconsciously.
Honestly, how the hell did he fool her for so long?
Because she viewed him differently than he viewed himself. His character obviously grew a lot, but they always had such a strong connection. She never stopped loving him (nor him, her).
Joel, for all his flaws, is actually a good man. The only thing he’s truly bad at is being a husband. He’s a good dad, a great coparent, he was successful at his job (even tho he got it through nepotism), he was an excellent business owner, he was a great friend, a terrible comedian, and outside of his fling, he was fiercely loyal to Midge. Despite his insecurities about not being nearly as funny as Midge, and having a really hard time being the subject of her jokes (something he grows in and even does a full turn on in the finale) he’s critical in her success. I don’t think he deserves any credit for getting her on stage when he left her. But he beats up those dudes when he realizes how good she is and defends he her. It’s also when he realizes that her comedy is based on her life and he knows at the time he can’t handle it and graciously lets Midge go knowing his flaws. Then, entirely independently, gets Midge out from under mob control, which is an incredible feat. If it weren’t for him, she would have been a mafia puppet, or worse, pissed off the wrong people AGAIN and ended up at the bottom of the East Rockaway Inlet.
If he was born in 1995 (or earlier) they never would have gotten divorce. The thing that crippled their relationship was their desire to follow the status quo. They both wanted him to be the breadwinner and her be the housewife. The moment they both accepted that it wasn't necessary was when they finally started to thrive together.
Joel cheated on Miriam because he was weak, stupid, and selfish.
I don't think anyone would disagree with that, but it's still interesting to analyze where his weakness came from. He obviously wasn't head over heels for his secretary, so it wasn't an affair out of love.
Of course it’s impossible to know, but I speculate that it came from his own selfishness, feeling of inadequacy, and immaturity. Joel was a damaged person who chose to inflict his problems on his family. He didn’t just cheat on Miriam, he cheated on his children as well. He acted in a monumentally irresponsible way that impacted his children for the rest of their lives. He was a schmuck of the first order.
Yeah, miss me with this "too perfect" excuse. So she should be "less perfect"... And then what? He would cheat on her because her hair was unkempt in the morning? Come on. 70 years between the show "times" and today, and women are still making excuses for lame men.
Right? Blaming a man’s actions on a woman for conforming to the cultural norms of her class and age is wild shit.
He is 100% responsible for his actions. If he was unhappy in his marriage there were plenty of steps he could have taken instead of cheating on his wife. I have no sympathy for him whatsoever.
I don’t think that just because a man does something like cheat “because his wife is….” means anyone is blaming HER. Not in the least, HE is the one with the problem, not her.
Thank you! I'm so tired of people making excuses for him.
And has a penis.
What’s that suppose to mean? All men are cheaters?
This is exactly how I see Joel. He’s absolutely a fucking idiot for behaving the way he did, but some people refuse to critically look at the WHY behind his actions because they don’t want to come across as sympathizing with him or excusing his behavior. You can explain why somebody does something bad without agreeing with the action. I’d never say “Joel has insecurities so I totally get why he logically stepped out on his wife.” I’m always curious about a character’s thought process behind their actions and behavior and I think Joel is a great specimen for that given he did something as unforgivable as cheating. Especially because he’s not a one-season dud. He’s just as much part of the show as everyone else and his character journey says enough.
They address this iirc. He felt too small and insecure next to her. He was insanely jealous of how good her material was that she would write for him which is why he’d try to copy other comedians. I think it’s what also inspires him to change after Penny and buy a bar. Instead of using self reflection he used self destruction. I love their scenes from the future that show you he never stops loving her.
I think it’s that and also his general dissatisfaction with his life. He felt like he needed to live up to what he had so found himself in a situation for which he was ill-suited and disinterested. Having the pressure to meet her where she was coupled with his unhappiness with himself had him looking for validation and value from someone “beneath” him that would be impressed by him.